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View Full Version : What is Dwight Howards ceiling?



Sox Appeal
03-26-2010, 04:07 AM
Title.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 04:10 AM
Deppends on what he does and wich trainers he gets the next couple years.

If he learns some fundamentals and how to use his body advantage better and gets a better jumper ( i think shaq shoudl be hired as his trainer as soon as he retires) he can become a top 10 all time center.

On the other hand if he does not develop form this point on i can see him being a sober Shawn Kemp that will decline heavily when he enters his 30s and his athelticims declines.

tredigs
03-26-2010, 04:41 AM
His ceiling puts him somewhere just inside of the top ten imo. But, being that he's already 6 years into his career and we know what type of player he is, it's impossible to imagine him ever being considered better than Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabar, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone or David Robinson.

But depending on how much he maintains his defensive superiority/improves offensively over the next half decade and whether or not he gets a ring or two, I could see him going down as an arguable fringe top ten with guys like Willis Reed, Bill Walton, George Mikan, Alonzo Mourning, Patrick Ewing etc.

Kind of crazy that if this was the 90's, it'd be arguable if D. Howard was even a top 5 center in the league. Where did all the monster athletic big men with skills go??

I wish Dwight had more of an edge, but I really like the dude. He's one of the few bigs worth their salt these days, and he's still young enough to grow into a better player if he wants to work at it.

_KB24_
03-26-2010, 04:59 AM
He can be a Top 5 of all time. I think he is going to be better than Russell, but no one is going to want to have him over him merely out of respect. Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, and the Dream will always be better than him. He can slip into that 5th seed but the whole Russel thing pops up.

jwn0303
03-26-2010, 05:20 AM
If he actually develops a post-up game, a 15 foot shot, and becomes a better free throw shooter. The sky is the limit. The odds of it happening aren't great, but those are three things that he can actually improve. He has no restraints physically or athletically.

tredigs
03-26-2010, 05:58 AM
He can be a Top 5 of all time. I think he is going to be better than Russell, but no one is going to want to have him over him merely out of respect. Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, and the Dream will always be better than him. He can slip into that 5th seed but the whole Russel thing pops up.

Huh?? What about Bill Russell makes you think he wasn't an all time great? This is a guy that is argued as the GOAT by a lot of people, and it's not without merit. Probably the fiercest competitor of all time, more so than Jordan. And he was one of the best passing bigs ever. Not to mention the greatest shot-blocker / rebounder of all time... Don't let the 6'9" fool you, Rodman maneuvered his 6'7" into 7 straight rebounding titles during the prime of Shaq/Robinson/Olajuwon/Ewing/Mourning/Mutombo, etc.

A lot of people don't have respect for Russell's game on here, and I cannot understand that. Read up/watch some more tape on the guy, he was seriously incredible.

Edit: Also, barring a miracle, there's no way I could see him ever be considered better than David Robinson. The Admiral was better defensively (more blocks, steals, better defensive rating, and just generally OWNED the paint), was a better passer, and had a full arsenal on offense (had multiple seasons of 25+ ppg). As good as D. Howard is, he's better at exactly nothing when it pertains to Robinson.

harlequin018
03-26-2010, 06:36 AM
I don't think Dwight will ever dominate the same way Shaq, Wilt or Kareem did but he could very much be a top 5 all time center.

KnicksorBust
03-26-2010, 06:39 AM
His ceiling puts him somewhere just inside of the top ten imo. But, being that he's already 6 years into his career and we know what type of player he is, it's impossible to imagine him ever being considered better than Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabar, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone or David Robinson.

But depending on how much he maintains his defensive superiority/improves offensively over the next half decade and whether or not he gets a ring or two, I could see him going down as an arguable fringe top ten with guys like Willis Reed, Bill Walton, George Mikan, Alonzo Mourning, Patrick Ewing etc.

Kind of crazy that if this was the 90's, it'd be arguable if D. Howard was even a top 5 center in the league. Where did all the monster athletic big men with skills go??

I wish Dwight had more of an edge, but I really like the dude. He's one of the few bigs worth their salt these days, and he's still young enough to grow into a better player if he wants to work at it.

x2. I agree that he can't break that top 7.

Tblaze
03-26-2010, 07:15 AM
I guess he COULD become a top 10 center of all time... but I don't think he will.

magichatnumber9
03-26-2010, 07:19 AM
He can become the one of the top 3 centers in league history easily. He just needs to find his intelligent beast mode and he will be unstoppable.

bagwell368
03-26-2010, 08:06 AM
He's already got too many games in to cave in to fantasies about this guy. He's not 3, 5, or 7. He might crack the top 10 with longevity, and another 4 years like his last 3, followed by 4 more good years.

Name me a great center that had six full years in, that jumped up into a new level from 7-12? I can't think of one. Moses Malone had his best years at 6 & 7. And as of today, Howard is way back from MM, like 5x back.

The Kemp comparison was quite apt. Great body, but not a polished player. He's like a perfect 10, with Popeye's voice. Coulda Shoulda, but didn't.

phila_gorilla
03-26-2010, 08:27 AM
No ceilings motha****a good mornin!

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2010, 08:35 AM
Its hard to say. If you had asked me what Shaq's potential was after his first couple season, I would have said: potentially the greatest of all time. He had the physical dominance and likely the most dominant physical gifts any player ever had since Chamberlain. But the thing was is Shaq relied a lot on his physical gifts, never had the smooth foot work of Hakeem, or the range or Robinson, or the passing ability of either and he was never abel to step out and guard centers with range. Shaq could have easily worked on those aspects of his game and had he been a rounded player and took his conditioning as seriously as Karl Malone or Kareem, then he could have had perhaps the most impressive career in the history of the league.

Howard has some very special physical gifts as well, and he already takes his conditioning very seriously, so that is one plus, but will he be able to develop a well rounded game. Inside/outside offence, smooth foot work and a solid passing game? I haven't seen the kind of improvement in the last couple seasons that suggest those thigns will develop to the level of Hakeem or Jabbar or Robinson, but I think that though he will likely end up behind Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq and like Moses Malone in the minds of many fans, he could find himself among the ten best centers even at his current pace and likely also the best center of his generation.

Iodine
03-26-2010, 09:53 AM
Huh?? What about Bill Russell makes you think he wasn't an all time great? This is a guy that is argued as the GOAT by a lot of people, and it's not without merit. Probably the fiercest competitor of all time, more so than Jordan. And he was one of the best passing bigs ever. Not to mention the greatest shot-blocker / rebounder of all time... Don't let the 6'9" fool you, Rodman maneuvered his 6'7" into 7 straight rebounding titles during the prime of Shaq/Robinson/Olajuwon/Ewing/Mourning/Mutombo, etc.

A lot of people don't have respect for Russell's game on here, and I cannot understand that. Read up/watch some more tape on the guy, he was seriously incredible.

Edit: Also, barring a miracle, there's no way I could see him ever be considered better than David Robinson. The Admiral was better defensively (more blocks, steals, better defensive rating, and just generally OWNED the paint), was a better passer, and had a full arsenal on offense (had multiple seasons of 25+ ppg). As good as D. Howard is, he's better at exactly nothing when it pertains to Robinson.

God I ****ing love you

J-Relo
03-26-2010, 10:33 AM
He can become the one of the top 3 centers in league history easily. He just needs to find his intelligent beast mode and he will be unstoppable.

easily? should i remind you who's in top 5?

twoearl
03-26-2010, 10:39 AM
Deppends on what he does and wich trainers he gets the next couple years.

If he learns some fundamentals and how to use his body advantage better and gets a better jumper ( i think shaq shoudl be hired as his trainer as soon as he retires) he can become a top 10 all time center.

On the other hand if he does not develop form this point on i can see him being a sober Shawn Kemp that will decline heavily when he enters his 30s and his athelticims declines.

LOL Funny but 100% accurate. I compare howard to a person like Josh Smith. They rely so much on thier athelticism that once that leaves I dont think they will be speical players anymore.

Raph12
03-26-2010, 12:03 PM
His ceiling is Top 3, I think he'll finish Top 5.

1. Shaq
2. Hakeem
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Dwight

Worst case scenario, if he continues to progress at the rate he has 20-14-3, he'll go down as one of the best defensive/athletic centers of all time and will probably finish with the most DPOY awards of all time (record is 4, Dwight will have two at the end of the season [he's 24 yrs old]). And I think he'll still be able to oust guys like Bill Russell, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Dikembe Mutombo for Top 10.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 12:10 PM
lets check who is still over him just so people can have a broaded view on the subject..
Cracking the top ten will be a difficult feature even if he develops his game , i think he can get to there and be in the low scheleon of the best ten.

Kareem

Wilt

Russell

Mikan

Hakeem

Moses Malone

Shaq

RObinson

Ewing

Reed

Gilmore

Pettit

Walton

Parish

FlakeyFool
03-26-2010, 12:10 PM
one of the best defensive centers ever

Raph12
03-26-2010, 12:17 PM
lets check who is still over him just so people can have a broaded view on the subject..
Cracking the top ten will be a difficult feature even if he develops his game , i think he can get to there and be in the low scheleon of the best ten.

Kareem

Wilt

Russell

Mikan

Hakeem

Moses Malone

Shaq

RObinson

Ewing

Reed

Gilmore

Pettit

Walton

Parish

I put the one's I think he'll be better than in bold.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 12:21 PM
^
I think Ewing is his toughest standard to pass, but then again, he's being taught by Ewing, so...

Raph12
03-26-2010, 12:25 PM
^
I think Ewing is his toughest standard to pass, but then again, he's being taught by Ewing, so...

I'd say ousting Russell, Ewing and Robinson will be the most difficult. But if he finishes his career with a ring or two (winning Finals MVP each ring), an MVP, four to six DPOYs, a career season of 25-15-3 and career avgs of 20-13-3, he'd oust all of those guys.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 12:27 PM
I put the one's I think he'll be better than in bold.

Mikan : Led the OLakers to 5 titles rules where hanged to see if they coudl stop him so NO

Russell: Best D cetner ever, best leader ever, Goat conversations forevery non Nike brainwhased Basketbal lover , 10 rings so NO

Moses Malone : A brute force of Nature but with Skills DURABILITY and rings Very Difficult, not impossible but very difficult.

David RObinson: Possible

Ewing: Possible.

Reed: His mere presence even if on ne leg was enough for the Knicks to spread fear n their rival and win a title so NO

Gilmore: Get some info on him and youll realize it will be verry difficult is absoolutley stupid that he still ahs not made the hall of fame since he was second only to KAreem during the 70s.

Pettit: At his prime was absolutley brutal so it will be difficult

Walton: as soon as he gets a ring, sadly if it hadnt ben or injuries then D12 wouldnt stand a chance.

Parish: 3 rings and hell of a durability so im going out on a limb and say No.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 12:29 PM
^
Do you speak English?

Miltown34
03-26-2010, 12:32 PM
easily? should i remind you who's in top 5?

Preach. I'm 19 and I seen David Robinson in his thirties and that dude was was great. Dwight Maybe number 8 or lower( meaning out of the top 10)

Raph12
03-26-2010, 12:32 PM
Mikan : Led the OLakers to 5 titles rules where hanged to see if they coudl stop him so NO

Russell: Best D cetner ever, best leader ever, Goat conversations forevery non Nike brainwhased Basketbal lover , 10 rings so NO

Moses Malone : A brute force of Nature but with Skills DURABILITY and rings Very Difficult, not impossible but very difficult.

David RObinson: Possible

Ewing: Possible.

Reed: His mere presence even if on ne leg was enough for the Knicks to spread fear n their rival and win a title so NO

Gilmore: Get some info on him and youll realize it will be verry difficult is absoolutley stupid that he still ahs not made the hall of fame since he was second only to KAreem during the 70s.

Pettit: At his prime was absolutley brutal so it will be difficult

Walton: as soon as he gets a ring, sadly if it hadnt ben or injuries then D12 wouldnt stand a chance.

Parish: 3 rings and hell of a durability so im going out on a limb and say No.

Mikan: No competition in the league, so yes.

Russell: Overhyped version of Mutombo, not a factor on the offensive end, so doable.

Malone: Great player, but likely.

Robinson: Good player, but likely.

Ewing: Good player, but likely.

Reed, Gilmore, Petit, Walton and Parish: Easily.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 12:33 PM
Can we come to an agreement that Dwight is already a top 15 center of all-time?

Miltown34
03-26-2010, 12:36 PM
Dwight numbers should be higher than a lot of those great centers if he's so called better than them because, there's not a dominant center left. He's one of the few only traditional centers, so he doesn't have the competition those guys had, so he should dominate more in his career, but then he would have to improve by a lot....I think at the most he can be a 23-13 guy. I don't see him developing that much more. When a guy is at least 4 seasons in his career then it's hard for them to make major improvements. I like Dwight though, it seems like people overrate him or underrate him sometimes more than most players in the league.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 12:38 PM
Let's wait till he's 27 to talk about this, because by then, he'll be the most dominant center we've seen in a while. Many great centers didn't reach their prime until 7 or 8 seasons into their career.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 12:39 PM
Can we come to an agreement that Dwight is already a top 15 center of all-time?

No.

His career is not over all kind of things can happen i mean he is not showing to be any better than ZO Mourning was BEFORE his Kidney troubles.

If Zo hadnt had that problems he could have been a top 10 one.
Then again he is not beter than Pre injured MING.

There are a lot of other cetners with long careers that can still be argued over Howard, if he keeps healthy does not decline develops his game we will see where he ends up but things can go wrong too.



We dont know what can happen to Howard.

Raph12
03-26-2010, 12:43 PM
No.

His career is not over all kind of things can happen i mean he is not showing to be any better than ZO Mourning was BEFORE his Kidney troubles.

If Zo hadnt had that problems he could have been a top 10 one.
Then again he is not beter than Pre injured MING.

There are a lot of other cetners with long careers that can still be argued over Howard, if he keeps healthy does not decline develops his game we will see where he ends up but things can go wrong too.



We dont know what can happen to Howard.

Stop saying preinjury this and that, they got injured and that's the end of it.

Now I do agree that anything can happen so nothings a given, but at the end of the season, Dwight will be a 24 year old with a lot of playoff exp, 2 dpoy awards and a lot of room to grow... How many centers on that list fit that bill?

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 12:44 PM
No.

His career is not over all kind of things can happen i mean he is not showing to be any better than ZO Mourning was BEFORE his Kidney troubles.

If Zo hadnt had that problems he could have been a top 10 one.
Then again he is not beter than Pre injured MING.

There are a lot of other cetners with long careers that can still be argued over Howard, if he keeps healthy does not decline develops his game we will see where he ends up but things can go wrong too.



We dont know what can happen to Howard.


Fair enough, but he already looks as dominant as Yao, and Zo.
Now it's just a matter of consistency, and if he can keep improving each year. I have a good feeling about his career though, so we'll see where it ends up.

juggla53
03-26-2010, 12:58 PM
Its all speculation at this point, hes got the physical tools to be as good as anyone, and if he ever developes a 12-15 foot turn around jumper then he going to be almost unstoppable

kurivaimu
03-26-2010, 01:05 PM
LOL!

Dwight wont be top 3, top 5, top 10...
ridiculous..

Have you ever heard of guys like Russel, Chamberlin etc? christ.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 01:20 PM
LOL!

Dwight wont be top 3, top 5, top 10...
ridiculous..

Have you ever heard of guys like Russel, Chamberlin etc? christ.

Okay. We'll see.

Sadds The Gr8
03-26-2010, 01:35 PM
Well there's....

Shaq
Zo
Hakeem
Ewing
Russell
Chamberlain
Kareem
Robinson
Moses
and I'm prolly missing a couple...

He has a chance to crack that if he REALLY improves his offensive game....but I don't think he will. That's a tuff list.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 01:43 PM
He won't improve?

Leading a team to a championship, and already winning a DPOY, with another possible one this year, isn't improving. How much more can he improve? He's already tearing it apart. If it's the point thing, that's a silly reason. His offensive game is actually really refined.

sep11ie
03-26-2010, 01:45 PM
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The one of these in his house.

jim51990
03-26-2010, 01:55 PM
anyone saying top 5 or less is nuts
dwights a great player but ill be surprised if hes even top 10

Swashcuff
03-26-2010, 01:58 PM
Mikan: No competition in the league, so yes.

Russell: Overhyped version of Mutombo, not a factor on the offensive end, so doable.

Malone: Great player, but likely.

Robinson: Good player, but likely.

Ewing: Good player, but likely.

Reed, Gilmore, Petit, Walton and Parish: Easily.

:facepalm: of the day has to go to this post...... Overhyped version of Mutombo??? Sigh. We are talking about William Russell here. If you say he was overhyped and overrated you may certainly have an arguement but he was no scrub/slouch. He was a BEAST.

*Superman*
03-26-2010, 02:00 PM
He will crack Top 10.

Swashcuff
03-26-2010, 02:01 PM
Top 10 is possible IMO. But top 5 not so much he really needs to assert himself inside more and dominate each and every openent he plays against.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 02:20 PM
:facepalm: of the day has to go to this post...... Overhyped version of Mutombo??? Sigh. We are talking about William Russell here. If you say he was overhyped and overrated you may certainly have an arguement but he was no scrub/slouch. He was a BEAST.

William Russell....?

bagwell368
03-26-2010, 02:31 PM
Can we come to an agreement that Dwight is already a top 15 center of all-time?

No. If Howard retired this minute, these guys all did more. Note that I left a lot of Center-Forwards off the list, or it could be 5 lower.

Jabbar
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Moses
Shaq
Robinson
Gilmore
Parish
Bellamy
Ewing
Hayes
Lanier
Cowens
Mutombo
Beaty
Sikma
Unseld
Laimbeer
Mourning
Thurmond
Reed
Cartright
Lovellette
Caldwell Jones
Daugherty

Twenty five guys (Win Shares). In three more of his current years he could pass Laimbeer. Twelve more years at the same high rate of play he could pass Kareem. That means playing at the same level at age 43. Fat chance at age 36, never mind 43.

Hell no.

Swashcuff
03-26-2010, 02:31 PM
William Russell....?

His name is William "Bill" Russell. Don't you know they just call him Bill for short?

macc
03-26-2010, 02:39 PM
I'm just happy at only 24 years old he's being talked about as being a top 5/10/15 player. To be honest I don't know where he sits. I grew up watching Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem, Zo, Ewing so I'm not just going to throw their careers away for the newest thing. Just alot of great centers out there. With that being said I'm seeing one giant flaw in peoples debates.

Noone is really talking about his defense. People keep saying over and over and over again "if he improves his offense, or averages 25 ppg." I just really don't get it. Most people agree that defense wins championships. Yet they don't use it when comparing greats it seems like.

Dwight isn't doing anything on offense that people haven't done before and better. Dwight is however doing things on defense NOONE has EVER done. In the history of the NBA NOONE has ever lead the league in blocks and rebounds two years in a row. Now you add the fact he's been averaging 18-21 ppg with a league best in fg%. I just don't think that's to shabby.

Dwight Howard makes opposing teams change the way they play, how many centers in NBA history can you say that about?

Now I'm not saying he's top 5/10/15, I mean it's just to early to tell, he's only 24 years old. By the time he's 28 he could have 1 or 2 rings under his belt and 2 more dpoy, or maybe nothing at all. You just never know.

I just wish people would respect the defense he brings to the game. People just like to see the 30-50 pt games and base their opinion on that alone. Alot of players can score, I mean every year we got 20 or so player who avg 20+ ppg. Scoring is great but it's only one faucet of the game.

Dwight is not quite there yet, his fundamentals are getting better but thats what he needs to continue to work on to be considered a top of all time. Hopefully he gets there because he's on my team.

tredigs
03-26-2010, 02:53 PM
Mikan: No competition in the league, so yes.

Russell: Overhyped version of Mutombo, not a factor on the offensive end, so doable.

Malone: Great player, but likely.

Robinson: Good player, but likely.

Ewing: Good player, but likely.

Reed, Gilmore, Petit, Walton and Parish: Easily.


You take the difficulties of maintaining greatness/staying healthy pretty lightly.

The thing that Dwight has on his side is that he plays in a league with very few other great true centers. Which makes it a lot easier for him to rack up rebound/block "titles" and All league first teams. If he was playing in the 90's, he'd be considered the 5th best defensive big behind Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutombo, and Robinson. Now factor in that he would be 6th in line to centers with better to much better offensive games than him in Shaq (much better), Olajuwon (much better), Ewing (better), Robinson (much better), Mourning (better, but comparable), and you see that Dwight's a player that would be battling for all league 3rd team at this point in his career (and probably wouldn't get it). MVP's, DPOY's and the like wouldn't be in the discussion when talking about D. Howard. And this is just the 90's I'm talking about... forget Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Moses Malone, etc.

What he has on his side is the fact that he came into the league so young, is physically gifted and also takes care of his body.

Things he needs to work on to crack the top ten: mid-range shot, post moves, PASSING ability, get more steals, block more shots, win some rings.

Things he needs to work on to crack the top 5: Average 22+ ppg for 5+ years, average 13+ rpg for 8+ years (his bread 'n butter, this should happen), average 3.5+ blocks for 5+ years, average 3+ assists for 5+ years, win multiple rings, win at least 5 DPOY's (the league is so weak at bigs now, this is a must, he needs to have the top record in at least something, and this is something I fully expect him to do), be the all time leader in rebounds after the post-merger era (with the 4 extra years of NBA not going to college and how good he is at boards, this should happen), and the biggest one --stay healthy--

BoratSagdiyev
03-26-2010, 02:57 PM
It'd have to be AT LEAST 7 feet, or he'd hit his head

tredigs
03-26-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm just happy at only 24 years old he's being talked about as being a top 5/10/15 player. To be honest I don't know where he sits. I grew up watching Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem, Zo, Ewing so I'm not just going to throw their careers away for the newest thing. Just alot of great centers out there. With that being said I'm seeing one giant flaw in peoples debates.

Noone is really talking about his defense. People keep saying over and over and over again "if he improves his offense, or averages 25 ppg." I just really don't get it. Most people agree that defense wins championships. Yet they don't use it when comparing greats it seems like.

Dwight isn't doing anything on offense that people haven't done before and better. Dwight is however doing things on defense NOONE has EVER done. In the history of the NBA NOONE has ever lead the league in blocks and rebounds two years in a row. Now you add the fact he's been averaging 18-21 ppg with a league best in fg%. I just don't think that's to shabby.

Dwight Howard makes opposing teams change the way they play, how many centers in NBA history can you say that about?

Now I'm not saying he's top 5/10/15, I mean it's just to early to tell, he's only 24 years old. By the time he's 28 he could have 1 or 2 rings under his belt and 2 more dpoy, or maybe nothing at all. You just never know.

I just wish people would respect the defense he brings to the game. People just like to see the 30-50 pt games and base their opinion on that alone. Alot of players can score, I mean every year we got 20 or so player who avg 20+ ppg. Scoring is great but it's only one faucet of the game.

Dwight is not quite there yet, his fundamentals are getting better but thats what he needs to continue to work on to be considered a top of all time. Hopefully he gets there because he's on my team.

The part I bolded is impressive no doubt, but let me put it into context. If this was 1994 (I honestly just randomly picked a year from the mid 90's), he would be 2nd or 3rd in rebounds (a full 4 rpg behind rodman! and even with Shaq) and eighth in blocked shots. That takes a lot of wind out of this achievement for me. His defense is great, but he was a dime a dozen center no more than a decade ago. That means a lot. I still like his age, attitude and possibilities for the future, but people already trying to place him as an obvious lock to go down as top ten need to take a step back and recognize that this kid is not doing anything new.

Dpop07
03-26-2010, 03:07 PM
A HUGE THANKS to those who are giving Bill Russell love. He won 11 titles and 5 MVPs playing in the same era as Wilt. This guy made Wilt quit in a game. Fiercest competitor ever. Dwight is in the same mold(defense/rebounding) as Russell but not the competitor and winner that Russell was.

He'll never be able to sniff the likes of Wilt, Russell, Shaq and Kareem. At his best he could be in the conversation with some of the greats after those 4 but that's at his best.

Raph12
03-26-2010, 03:11 PM
1. The 90s was by far the best decade for centers, so stop saying 90s, if you take Russell and put him in the 90s, he'd get raped.

2. The center Top 5-10 list is by far the toughest list to crack for the centers coming into the league.

3. Dwight is 24, let's talk about this when he's 30 and has a bunch of accolades we could compare to those guys he's being compared to now.

Finally, Dwight will go down as one of, if not, the best defensive center of all-time, to say he won't crack the Top 10 with that title is foolish. And again, all of this is speculation, no one knows what will happen so let's just let it go.

Raph12
03-26-2010, 03:15 PM
:facepalm: of the day has to go to this post...... Overhyped version of Mutombo??? Sigh. We are talking about William Russell here. If you say he was overhyped and overrated you may certainly have an arguement but he was no scrub/slouch. He was a BEAST.

Mutombo is no slouch either, one of the best defensive centers of all-time with a decent offensive game just like Russell. Bill was a better leader, but that's about it, he's not much better than most of the other guys on the Top 10 list.

Draco
03-26-2010, 03:20 PM
No. If Howard retired this minute, these guys all did more. Note that I left a lot of Center-Forwards off the list, or it could be 5 lower.

Jabbar
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Moses
Shaq
Robinson
Gilmore
Parish
Bellamy
Ewing
Hayes
Lanier
Cowens
Mutombo
Beaty
Sikma
Unseld
Laimbeer
Mourning
Thurmond
Reed
Cartright
Lovellette
Caldwell Jones
Daugherty

Twenty five guys (Win Shares). In three more of his current years he could pass Laimbeer. Twelve more years at the same high rate of play he could pass Kareem. That means playing at the same level at age 43. Fat chance at age 36, never mind 43.

Hell no.

I have no idea how to properly use the concept of Win Shares in this evaluation but I find it hard to believe that Howard wouldn't rank higher than Bill Cartwright.. that guy was the epitome of mediocre... solid, but mediocre. Edit: At least from what I remember during his time with the Bulls.. maybe he was more productive on the Knicks.

bagwell368
03-26-2010, 03:23 PM
I'm quite sure I'm the only one in PSD that watched Bill Russell play live and on TV. I was also steeped in all the Celtic lore about him. He's not as great as some say, but he's a lot greater then some are giving him here.

With some good luck, Howard breaks into the top 10. That's all we can say today. He gets a bad back like Brad D., or gets hurt like Reed, it's all over.

bagwell368
03-26-2010, 03:35 PM
I have no idea how to properly use the concept of Win Shares in this evaluation but I find it hard to believe that Howard wouldn't rank higher than Bill Cartwright.. that guy was the epitome of mediocre... solid, but mediocre. Edit: At least from what I remember during his time with the Bulls.. maybe he was more productive on the Knicks.

I agree, it's just an easy way to generate a list, and I also wanted to ground some of the silly guys around here in some reality. There was an NBA before they started watching.

On the eyeball scale: Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, Malone all totally wipe out Howard at peak and career. Other guys like Parish have Howard beat in longevity by a mile. In terms of great years, Cowens and Walton put up years that Howard hasn't even dreamed of, and may never match. Reed and Unseld, Mutombo, Hakeem and Gilmore had some defensive years and stretches that are as good as anything Howard has done, or better. Offense? Lots of guys.

Take it from an old timer. He's interesting, he can be great on D, he hasn't done enough yet to make it to my top 15 starting team centers yet.

ldc62
03-26-2010, 03:41 PM
Are you people kidding me? Top 3? Top 5? Even top 10? I know it is hard to recall memories, but soo many centers have been more dominant than Dwight. Yes Dwight is a star, but lets not forget that hes been in the league for 5+ years and his offense [tho it has gotten much better] isn't at the level it should be. How can you be in the top 10 of all time if there are at least 10 centers in the nba that has better offense than him.

I know that I will probably get attacked, but I am just stating the truth. I'm not saying he sucks, but not in the top 10 [not saying he can't get there, but not likely given what has been seen].

tredigs
03-26-2010, 03:46 PM
1. The 90s was by far the best decade for centers, so stop saying 90s, if you take Russell and put him in the 90s, he'd get raped.

2. The center Top 5-10 list is by far the toughest list to crack for the centers coming into the league.

3. Dwight is 24, let's talk about this when he's 30 and has a bunch of accolades we could compare to those guys he's being compared to now.

Finally, Dwight will go down as one of, if not, the best defensive center of all-time, to say he won't crack the Top 10 with that title is foolish. And again, all of this is speculation, no one knows what will happen so let's just let it go.

1. HAH! You couldn't be further from the truth. He might move to power forward, but probably not. And he would still be fighting Rodman (and probably winning) for rebounding titles, while blocking 3+ shots a game and making better passes/accruing more assists than just about any big in the league. The polarization of this man between GOAT and overrated mess is hilarious to me. He was a top 5 big ever, and could dominate in every generation. Dude would eat up the 2010 NBA.

2. Agreed. Which is why it's so crazy to me how some of you are already ready to place him there.

3. Also agreed. He has a ton of work to do, let's leave it at that.

-- I'm curious why you think someone that wouldn't go down as a top 3 defensive center even in the last 15 years at this point would go down as the best ever? Personal achievements aren't enough when you consider the talent at center around him. This is one case where you'd have to look at the numbers. And his numbers (steals, blocks, defensive rating, defensive win shares, etc) do not match up favorably for him at this point. D ratings is elite, but it needs to stay that way. If he stays healthy for a few more years he'll go down as a consensus top 10 defensive center ever, nearing the top 3 to 5. Beyond that everything is entirely speculative. I'll let the offense rest for now, because I like D. Howard and would like to see him become great.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 03:52 PM
I agree, it's just an easy way to generate a list, and I also wanted to ground some of the silly guys around here in some reality. There was an NBA before they started watching.

On the eyeball scale: Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, Malone all totally wipe out Howard at peak and career. Other guys like Parish have Howard beat in longevity by a mile. In terms of great years, Cowens and Walton put up years that Howard hasn't even dreamed of, and may never match. Reed and Unseld, Mutombo, Hakeem and Gilmore had some defensive years and stretches that are as good as anything Howard has done, or better. Offense? Lots of guys.

Take it from an old timer. He's interesting, he can be great on D, he hasn't done enough yet to make it to my top 15 starting team centers yet.

thats what i was saying, and i only could watch from 8os on.

jmtapia
03-26-2010, 03:54 PM
i voted his ceiling would put him at Top5. Howard is already a beast and puts up almost 20 pts/g and is considered an inferior offensive threat. Howard is 24 and has plenty of time to polish his offensive game to become a legit 20+ pts/g scorer. If Howard improves his FT% that alone would put him at a legit 20+ pts/g.

the people that bash on Howard do so because he isnt on their team...

jackdawson
03-26-2010, 03:55 PM
He can be a Top 5 of all time. I think he is going to be better than Russell, but no one is going to want to have him over him merely out of respect. Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, and the Dream will always be better than him. He can slip into that 5th seed but the whole Russel thing pops up.

:facepalm::facepalm: Ignorance at it's best. nuff said. In pre-jordan era Russel was known as the GOAT. PSD quality has been aweful off late.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 04:08 PM
:facepalm::facepalm: Ignorance at it's best. nuff said. In pre-jordan era Russel was known as the GOAT. PSD quality has been aweful off late.

In prejordan prenike prevaccaro, pre stern, pregatorade, premacdonalds, prespaceham era...

there was a very HEALTHY and nice discussion bout Wilt, russell, Oscar, Kareem, magic or Bird beig the GOAT

wich was nice and its they way is should be because in sports there is NO CATEGORICAL truth and all of them have their share of arguments in their favour and arguments against.

If things woudl have followed being normal and not Media and bussines driven Jordan woudl ahve joined that conversation then Hakeem , shaq duncan and KObe and in the future Lebron probably.

jackdawson
03-26-2010, 04:11 PM
In prejordan prenike prevaccaro, pre stern, pregatorade, premacdonalds, prespaceham era...

there was a very HEALTHY and nice discussion bout Wilt, russell, Oscar, Kareem, magic or Bird beig the GOAT

wich was nice and its they way is should be because in sports there is NO CATEGORICAL truth and all of them have their share of arguments in their favour and arguments against.

If things woudl have followed being normal and not Media and bussines driven Jordan woudl ahve joined that conversation then Hakeem , shaq duncan and KObe and in the future Lebron probably.

English???? My butt sweats to read this part.

jmtapia
03-26-2010, 04:14 PM
English???? My butt sweats to read this part.

:yawn:

macc
03-26-2010, 04:46 PM
The part I bolded is impressive no doubt, but let me put it into context. If this was 1994 (I honestly just randomly picked a year from the mid 90's), he would be 2nd or 3rd in rebounds (a full 4 rpg behind rodman! and even with Shaq) and eighth in blocked shots. That takes a lot of wind out of this achievement for me. His defense is great, but he was a dime a dozen center no more than a decade ago. That means a lot. I still like his age, attitude and possibilities for the future, but people already trying to place him as an obvious lock to go down as top ten need to take a step back and recognize that this kid is not doing anything new.


Come on man you can't use that comparison. It's all about the talent that you are faced with day to day. Your average NBA player now compared to 15 years ago is faster, bigger and more athletic. That's like saying Lebrons 29 ppg is nothing to brag about because Jordan had years where he avg 33-37 ppg in a season. That's 37 ppg and he played every single game that year! Does that make Lebron any less elite?

Plus you're nit picking single players that are elite at a specific thing and comparing it to Dwight. In 94 Dennis Rodman avg 17.3 rpg. Yes that's more than Dwight has ever averaged but at the same time Rodman avg .41 bpg and 4.7 ppg. So ofcourse you're going to find "single" achievments that people have done better than Dwight but name someone who's lead so many catagories multiple years in a row.

So I disagree, he is doing something noone has ever done before. #1 in blocks and rebounds two years in a row.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 04:57 PM
17.4 Rebounds a game? Holy **** LMFAO.

tredigs
03-26-2010, 05:18 PM
Come on man you can't use that comparison. It's all about the talent that you are faced with day to day. Your average NBA player now compared to 15 years ago is faster, bigger and more athletic. That's like saying Lebrons 29 ppg is nothing to brag about because Jordan had years where he avg 33-37 ppg in a season. That's 37 ppg and he played every single game that year! Does that make Lebron any less elite?

Plus you're nit picking single players that are elite at a specific thing and comparing it to Dwight. In 94 Dennis Rodman avg 17.3 rpg. Yes that's more than Dwight has ever averaged but at the same time Rodman avg .41 bpg and 4.7 ppg. So ofcourse you're going to find "single" achievments that people have done better than Dwight but name someone who's lead so many catagories multiple years in a row.

So I disagree, he is doing something noone has ever done before. #1 in blocks and rebounds two years in a row.

The talent level Dwight is faced with day to day is HUGELY inferior to those years. "Less athletic, bigger, stronger", etc? C'mon man. Exact opposite at the 4 and 5. At guard... you're right, not here.

And I agree that what he is doing with his consistency at blocking shots/getting boards is impressive, but other players had much better well rounded games, even at defense. My point was that at 2.7 blocks per game, he has no business winning block titles.

Hakeem in 1990-91 averaged 24 pts, 14 rebs, 2stls, 4.6 blks.

David Robinson in '94 put up: 30 pts, 10.7 rebs, 4.8 ast, 1.7 stl, 3.3 blks

And those numbers aside, Mutombo was the one winning most of the DPOY's during that time. They had a stretch of about a decade with numbers not too far from that. I'm leaving out more than a few players that had Dwight beat, too. Those are the numbers that the greats put up. And they were going against MUCH tougher competition on a night to night basis. Who's D. Howards main competition? Dinosaur Shaq? Andrew Bogut? I just need to see this guy dominate this league (more so than he does now) for at least another half decade for me to get ready to put him up there with any of the top ten greats.

Angel2Maverick
03-26-2010, 05:21 PM
He will be in the top 20 atleast, It is just to much to consider D12 top ten

stawka
03-26-2010, 05:24 PM
you forgot both Gasol's :P


lets check who is still over him just so people can have a broaded view on the subject..
Cracking the top ten will be a difficult feature even if he develops his game , i think he can get to there and be in the low scheleon of the best ten.

Kareem

Wilt

Russell

Mikan

Hakeem

Moses Malone

Shaq

RObinson

Ewing

Reed

Gilmore

Pettit

Walton

Parish

junion
03-26-2010, 05:33 PM
i saw mtv cribs, i think he has coffered ceilings

macc
03-26-2010, 05:35 PM
The talent level Dwight is faced with day to day is HUGELY inferior to those years. "Less athletic, bigger, stronger", etc? C'mon man. Exact opposite at the 4 and 5. At guard... you're right, not here.

And I agree that what he is doing with his consistency at blocking shots/getting boards is impressive, but other players had much better well rounded games, even at defense. My point was that at 2.7 blocks per game, he has no business winning block titles.

Hakeem in 1990-91 averaged 24 pts, 14 rebs, 2stls, 4.6 blks.

David Robinson in '94 put up: 30 pts, 10.7 rebs, 4.8 ast, 1.7 stl, 3.3 blks

And those numbers aside, Mutombo was the one winning most of the DPOY's during that time. They had a stretch of about a decade with numbers not too far from that. I'm leaving out more than a few players that had Dwight beat, too. Those are the numbers that the greats put up. And they were going against MUCH tougher competition on a night to night basis. Who's D. Howards main competition? Dinosaur Shaq? Andrew Bogut? I just need to see this guy dominate this league (more so than he does now) for at least another half decade for me to get ready to put him up there with any of the top ten greats.



Once again I disagree. The competition wasn't the same. Centers get the majority of their blocks on the little men. Do you agree or disagree with that? So when you compare permeter players the competition isn't even close. Right now Howard has to go against Lebron James, Kobe, Wade, Roy, Durrant, Melo, Pierce, Joe Johnson, Chris Paul, Deren Williams, Steve Nash (stop there, do you ever remember a time with that many elite peremeter players playing during the same era?)


Ok now when you look at our current centers and 4 spot players, the majority of them play longball now. We haven't seen an early age Malone or Charles Barkely in a while. Not sure if we're going to see many of those players anymore. The only true PF I can really think of is Boozer (and even he has a decent jumpshot).

Duncan, Dirk, Randalph, Bosh, Jamison, Rasheed, Garnett and whoever else I'm missing plays away from the basket. Explain to me how many blocks per game you expect somone to get in TODAY'S basketball game?

Thats why you can't compair era to era. Just doesn't make sense. Savy

tredigs
03-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Once again I disagree. The competition wasn't the same. Centers get the majority of their blocks on the little men. Do you agree or disagree with that? So when you compare permeter players the competition isn't even close. Right now Howard has to go against Lebron James, Kobe, Wade, Roy, Durrant, Melo, Pierce, Joe Johnson, Chris Paul, Deren Williams, Steve Nash (stop there, do you ever remember a time with that many elite peremeter players playing during the same era?)


Ok now when you look at our current centers and 4 spot players, the majority of them play longball now. We haven't seen an early age Malone or Charles Barkely in a while. Not sure if we're going to see many of those players anymore. The only true PF I can really think of is Boozer (and even he has a decent jumpshot).

Duncan, Dirk, Randalph, Bosh, Jamison, Rasheed, Garnett and whoever else I'm missing plays away from the basket. Explain to me how many blocks per game you expect somone to get in TODAY'S basketball game?

Thats why you can't compair era to era. Just doesn't make sense. Savy


Interesting. I don't entirely agree with you and thinks there's a few flaws in your thinking here. But I like the argument a lot and think it's a good one. I've got to head out now so I'll just leave it at that and hope to see this kid continue to improve.

macc
03-26-2010, 05:52 PM
Interesting. I don't entirely agree with you and thinks there's a few flaws in your thinking here. But I like the argument a lot and think it's a good one. I've got to head out now so I'll just leave it at that and hope to see this kid continue to improve.



Ya I'm off work and out for the night as well. Great debate

Hellcrooner
03-26-2010, 05:54 PM
you forgot both Gasol's :P

Pau is a Pf so he doesnot belong in Center discussions.

Marc Gasol is a sophomore we dont know if he will decline and become the next jerome james or evolve and become an allstar or whatver,

Bishnoff
03-26-2010, 06:15 PM
If he improves and broadens his offensive game he may crack the top 10.

Evolution23
03-26-2010, 06:17 PM
LOL greatest of all time??? Get the **** outa here.

ElMarroAfamado
03-26-2010, 06:21 PM
^
Do you speak English?

Matt Barnes.

Evolution23
03-26-2010, 06:23 PM
I wounder how much potential he has because he already has One of the Best Centers of all time (Ewing) under his wing. Still he hasn't improved much on the offensive end. Maybe he is who is, just a real force on the def end and a mediocre scoring threat.

xBLAMEITON24x
03-26-2010, 06:26 PM
Who really knows,but i voted top 5

the unknown
03-26-2010, 06:47 PM
lol 6 year in the league and he has barely any offensive game at all. His shot blocking production is actually down from last year.. i think when fully healthy Yao Ming is actually better than Howard.. he is kinda of like a Dikembo Mutumbo with more dunking and hot as good as a shot blocker.. maybe arlonzo morning.. not as good as Shaq never ever will be as good as shaq

_KB24_
03-26-2010, 06:47 PM
Huh?? What about Bill Russell makes you think he wasn't an all time great? This is a guy that is argued as the GOAT by a lot of people, and it's not without merit. Probably the fiercest competitor of all time, more so than Jordan. And he was one of the best passing bigs ever. Not to mention the greatest shot-blocker / rebounder of all time... Don't let the 6'9" fool you, Rodman maneuvered his 6'7" into 7 straight rebounding titles during the prime of Shaq/Robinson/Olajuwon/Ewing/Mourning/Mutombo, etc.

A lot of people don't have respect for Russell's game on here, and I cannot understand that. Read up/watch some more tape on the guy, he was seriously incredible.

Edit: Also, barring a miracle, there's no way I could see him ever be considered better than David Robinson. The Admiral was better defensively (more blocks, steals, better defensive rating, and just generally OWNED the paint), was a better passer, and had a full arsenal on offense (had multiple seasons of 25+ ppg). As good as D. Howard is, he's better at exactly nothing when it pertains to Robinson.

The era in which he played in. There literally no other BIGS in the league. He played amongst boys when you compared others to his size. His stats were inflated. Dwight would EASILY average the same stats if he were in Russell's place. Dwight ALREADY has a better offensive game than Bill, and it's scary because Dwight hasn't even sniffed his peak offensively. Dwight was much more athletic and as strong as Russell was, and I mean strong, Dwight is the STRONGEST this league has ever seen. But the legacy factor which I touched upon will take its toll. No one will ever win as many rings as him and he was the greatest personality to ever walk the face of the NBA.

And ousting Robinson seems likely to me. Robinson couldn't lead the Spurs to the Finals once before Timmy D came, Dwight has already taken the Magic to the Finals in his short career. Robinson never won a Finals MVP award, and theres no doubt WHEN Dwight will get his ring, he will surely get the award. So he wins in the winning department. Defensively, Dwight will be better than Robinson when it's all said and done. He will have the most DPOY awards in history if continues this tear, and his offensive game will never fully reach Robinsons, but he will be dominant nonetheless.

the unknown
03-26-2010, 06:51 PM
no order at all

Bill Russell
shaq
robinson
ewing
chamberlain
jabbar
olojuan
zo
mikan
mutumbo

tredigs
03-26-2010, 07:18 PM
The era in which he [ed: Bill Russell] played in. There literally no other BIGS in the league. He played amongst boys when you compared others to his size. His stats were inflated. Dwight would EASILY average the same stats if he were in Russell's place. Dwight ALREADY has a better offensive game than Bill, and it's scary because Dwight hasn't even sniffed his peak offensively. Dwight was much more athletic and as strong as Russell was, and I mean strong, Dwight is the STRONGEST this league has ever seen. But the legacy factor which I touched upon will take its toll. No one will ever win as many rings as him and he was the greatest personality to ever walk the face of the NBA.

And ousting Robinson seems likely to me. Robinson couldn't lead the Spurs to the Finals once before Timmy D came, Dwight has already taken the Magic to the Finals in his short career. Robinson never won a Finals MVP award, and theres no doubt WHEN Dwight will get his ring, he will surely get the award. So he wins in the winning department. Defensively, Dwight will be better than Robinson when it's all said and done. He will have the most DPOY awards in history if continues this tear, and his offensive game will never fully reach Robinsons, but he will be dominant nonetheless.


I stopped reading right here, because I wanted to do a little research to enlighten you and the other people on here who underestimate Bill Russel's game. In doing so I found an awesome little write up on yahoo by a guy that took the time to do what I was about to. Thanks! http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100224214633AAvvebd:


"Did Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain face weak competition?
Two of the NBA's greatest players, Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, are often criticized for playing in a "weak" era. This is far from the truth, as the 1960s were a very good time for basketball. A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevertheless hall of famers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents:

Boston Celtics: Bill Russel, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm
Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas
Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer
New York Knicks: Willis Reed
San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond
St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit
Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere
Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy

Russel and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russel and Chamberlain faced included:

1960-1964:

Dolph Schayes
Bob Pettit
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas

1965-1968:

Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond

1969-1972:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens

One reason fans tend to lash out at these legends is the absurd stats of not only Russel and Chamberlain, but average players as well, as it was not uncommon for a player to average 15-20 rebounds per game. There are several reasons for the high rebound rates of these players:

a. A high tempo offense. The average team in 1965 shot about 600 more shots than a team in 1985 and about 1400 more shots than a team in 2005.

b. Less fouls called. In 1965, the average team had 2076 personal fouls per season. In 2005, 1856 personal fouls were called. But keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result, a lowing field goal percentage, and more shots allowed to be rebounded.

When adjusting the field goal percentage to 45% and reducing the shots taken to the normal rate today, the rebounding rate drops to a more familiar rate for most players. Elgin Baylor would dropped to around 9 boards a game and Nate Thurmond to around 12. However, both Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, even with the adjusted stats, still averaged between 16-20 rebounds per game, showing that they truly did dominate like few others.

Another common misperception is that Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"

Two other factors to keep in mind:

a. The NBA was less interested in promoting itself 40 years ago, and therefore, did not see the need to measure players with their shoes on. Almost all players today are listed 1-2 inches taller than their actual height.

b. The NBA had 1/3 of the players that they do now. That means Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain faced these 25 guys 3 times more often than they would in the modern nba scheduling.

The truth is, height will never be more of a factor than skill. With several exceptions, players over 7' are typically not very successful. At a collegian level, only three 7 footers have made all-American first team in the last twenty years: Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, and Chris Mihm. In this years all star game, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, and Chris Kaman were the only three of 30 players selected to be 7 feet, and all are known far more for their skill sets than dominating with size. If height was such a significant factor, then Manute Bol, Shawn Bradly, and Gheorghe Muresan would be hall of fame players, not just fan favorite scrubs.

The overall talent of the 1960s is greatly underestimated as well. The stamina that players in the 1960s have is far greater than anything seen today

1965 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Oscar Robertson, 45.6 mpg
2. Bill Russel, 45.2 mpg
3. Wilt Chamberlain, 44.4 mpg

2005 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Lebron James, 42.3 mpg
2. Allen Iverson, 42.3 mpg
3. Gilbert Arenas 40.9 mpg

In addition, teams never walked up the court and held the ball for 12
4 weeks ago
Additional Details
seconds, and then have four players watch as the fifth tries to get to the hoop. Most teams in the 60s tried to get a fast break after every rebound and in the half court set, the ball moved and players were setting screens and cutting to the basket. Yet players were doing this on a nightly basis, without fancy trainers giving massages and various methods to help muscle recovery. In addition, players were far more versatile as Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Dave Debusschere, and other players could play 3 or 4 positions. Many performances that players had would be considered triple doubles in todays game, but assist rules were far stricter in the 1960s, as the average team in the 1960s made 1000 more field goals per year than a team in 2005, yet averaged 100 less assists.

The 1960s produced some of the leagues finest stars, and it is an absolute travesty that these legends are debunked for playing in a weak era when it is clearly not the case. "


^ This is an expert analysis of exactly why Russell is so misunderstood and should still be considered in the light that he is by any true bball analyst (an all time great). Your analysis of Robinson is off to me, too. Robinson's 10 year prime has him as a better passer, shot blocker, stealer, and much better offensively. His rebound total took a hit once he got the greatest PF of all time right next to him, but he was still great. Dwight has a fantastic team around him, anything less than ECF's appearances in that sorry Eastern conference would be a monumental failure, and I think you can agree with that. The fact that there's no other good/great bigs in the league outside of possibly Bogut means that these all league first teams/DPOY's should be his. But his game needs a lot of work to catch up to even the Admiral. Bill Russell? Out of the question.

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2010, 10:27 PM
Name me a great center that had six full years in, that jumped up into a new level from 7-12?

Hakeem. His 9th, and 10th, 11th and 12th seasons were his best. His four highest scorign averages. Higher assist averages, lower personal fouls, best assist-to-turnover ratios, better FG% than the seven seasons prior (though his rookie season was his highest FG%), his foot work in the paint was at its best, his had more range at that point in his career, and thats when he won MVP and won titles.

This does not mean that I think Howard will do that. But at the same time Howard's first seven seasons are more liek most other players first 5 seasons since he came out of highschool. He got an early start.

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2010, 10:43 PM
And ousting Robinson seems likely to me. Robinson couldn't lead the Spurs to the Finals once before Timmy D came, Dwight has already taken the Magic to the Finals in his short career. Robinson never won a Finals MVP award, and theres no doubt WHEN Dwight will get his ring, he will surely get the award. So he wins in the winning department. Defensively, Dwight will be better than Robinson when it's all said and done. He will have the most DPOY awards in history if continues this tear, and his offensive game will never fully reach Robinsons, but he will be dominant nonetheless.

I honestly don't see how one trip to the finals makes Howard better than Robinson, and claiming that the fact that Robinson needed Duncan to get to the finals is a point that dilutes Robinson's on court ability is assinign. You could easily say that Howard would have gotten to the finals without Lewis, or Turk. You can't compare the two based on their situations, but on their ability. Robinson has won regular season MVP (Howard hasnt), and he's won two NBA titles (Howard hasnt), so I'm not sure I see where you are even going with this.

Robinson had higher block averages (I've never seen Howard get 4.5 a game for a season playing against the likes of Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq and Mourning, but rather a career high 2.9 playing against Kaman and Bogut). Robinson had higher steals averages (2.3 as a career high to Howard's 1.0), and not only was Robinson a better shot blocker, but he got more blocks while committing less fouls! Coupled with that Robinson would actually step out to guard guys like Lambere, Smits and Perkins who could all shoot outside and Howard defensive dominance is limitted to the itnertior.

Howard may be a better rebounder, but he's also playing in a league that doesn't feature guys like Rodman, Mutumbo, Hakeem, Prime Shaq, Ewing, Mourning and other dominant rebounders.

And DO NOT EVEN THINK about comparing their offensive games. Howard has a shoulder-drop spear that is an offensive foul as one of his only way to create space in the post, while Robinson has amazing footwork, and guess what, he coudl step out beyond a yard from the basket and do this thing called SHOOTING. Not that scoring was Robinson's only offensive weapon. He did this thing called passing. What he would do is draw a double team, and then pass to an open play who would then hit a shot. Its called an assist and got 4.8 in his best season and over 3 a game many other seasons, all while committing fewer turnovers than Howard (only 2.7 a game the season he posted 4.8 assists, to Howards 1.9 assists- his career high, to his 3.9 turnovers).

Seriously. SERIOUSLY!! I'm not going to start dropping insults on you for even suggest that Howard is better than Robinson, but SERIOUSLY!!!! Can you read what I just wrote and still think that assessment is even remotely accurate?

and suggesting that he might get more DPOY awards? He doesn't have guys like Mutumbo, Hakeem, Jordan, Rodman and Payton to compete with for the award.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 10:56 PM
I stopped reading right here, because I wanted to do a little research to enlighten you and the other people on here who underestimate Bill Russel's game. In doing so I found an awesome little write up on yahoo by a guy that took the time to do what I was about to. Thanks! http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100224214633AAvvebd:


"Did Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain face weak competition?
Two of the NBA's greatest players, Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, are often criticized for playing in a "weak" era. This is far from the truth, as the 1960s were a very good time for basketball. A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevertheless hall of famers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents:

Boston Celtics: Bill Russel, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm
Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas
Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer
New York Knicks: Willis Reed
San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond
St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit
Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere
Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy

Russel and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russel and Chamberlain faced included:

1960-1964:

Dolph Schayes
Bob Pettit
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas

1965-1968:

Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond

1969-1972:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens

One reason fans tend to lash out at these legends is the absurd stats of not only Russel and Chamberlain, but average players as well, as it was not uncommon for a player to average 15-20 rebounds per game. There are several reasons for the high rebound rates of these players:

a. A high tempo offense. The average team in 1965 shot about 600 more shots than a team in 1985 and about 1400 more shots than a team in 2005.

b. Less fouls called. In 1965, the average team had 2076 personal fouls per season. In 2005, 1856 personal fouls were called. But keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result, a lowing field goal percentage, and more shots allowed to be rebounded.

When adjusting the field goal percentage to 45% and reducing the shots taken to the normal rate today, the rebounding rate drops to a more familiar rate for most players. Elgin Baylor would dropped to around 9 boards a game and Nate Thurmond to around 12. However, both Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, even with the adjusted stats, still averaged between 16-20 rebounds per game, showing that they truly did dominate like few others.

Another common misperception is that Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"

Two other factors to keep in mind:

a. The NBA was less interested in promoting itself 40 years ago, and therefore, did not see the need to measure players with their shoes on. Almost all players today are listed 1-2 inches taller than their actual height.

b. The NBA had 1/3 of the players that they do now. That means Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain faced these 25 guys 3 times more often than they would in the modern nba scheduling.

The truth is, height will never be more of a factor than skill. With several exceptions, players over 7' are typically not very successful. At a collegian level, only three 7 footers have made all-American first team in the last twenty years: Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, and Chris Mihm. In this years all star game, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, and Chris Kaman were the only three of 30 players selected to be 7 feet, and all are known far more for their skill sets than dominating with size. If height was such a significant factor, then Manute Bol, Shawn Bradly, and Gheorghe Muresan would be hall of fame players, not just fan favorite scrubs.

The overall talent of the 1960s is greatly underestimated as well. The stamina that players in the 1960s have is far greater than anything seen today

1965 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Oscar Robertson, 45.6 mpg
2. Bill Russel, 45.2 mpg
3. Wilt Chamberlain, 44.4 mpg

2005 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Lebron James, 42.3 mpg
2. Allen Iverson, 42.3 mpg
3. Gilbert Arenas 40.9 mpg

In addition, teams never walked up the court and held the ball for 12
4 weeks ago
Additional Details
seconds, and then have four players watch as the fifth tries to get to the hoop. Most teams in the 60s tried to get a fast break after every rebound and in the half court set, the ball moved and players were setting screens and cutting to the basket. Yet players were doing this on a nightly basis, without fancy trainers giving massages and various methods to help muscle recovery. In addition, players were far more versatile as Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Dave Debusschere, and other players could play 3 or 4 positions. Many performances that players had would be considered triple doubles in todays game, but assist rules were far stricter in the 1960s, as the average team in the 1960s made 1000 more field goals per year than a team in 2005, yet averaged 100 less assists.

The 1960s produced some of the leagues finest stars, and it is an absolute travesty that these legends are debunked for playing in a weak era when it is clearly not the case. "


^ This is an expert analysis of exactly why Russell is so misunderstood and should still be considered in the light that he is by any true bball analyst (an all time great). Your analysis of Robinson is off to me, too. Robinson's 10 year prime has him as a better passer, shot blocker, stealer, and much better offensively. His rebound total took a hit once he got the greatest PF of all time right next to him, but he was still great. Dwight has a fantastic team around him, anything less than ECF's appearances in that sorry Eastern conference would be a monumental failure, and I think you can agree with that. The fact that there's no other good/great bigs in the league outside of possibly Bogut means that these all league first teams/DPOY's should be his. But his game needs a lot of work to catch up to even the Admiral. Bill Russell? Out of the question.

Good to know you have a lot of Free time on your hands.

Job perhaps?

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 10:57 PM
This thread is pretty much whatever. Dwight will continue to excel, and shut each and every one of you up, until you have no other choice but to give in. Mark it. It's coming.

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 10:58 PM
Matt Barnes.

Nice user-name.

ElMarroAfamado.

Epitome of fail.

tredigs
03-26-2010, 11:02 PM
Good to know you have a lot of Free time on your hands.

Job perhaps?

^ Like I noted, I didn't write that, somebody else did. And yes, a pretty well paying job that allows me free time and the internet at my beckon call. Boo ya.

Butthurt that the legacy of your center as the next "great" is probably not all it's cracked up to be perhaps?

RadiantShot
03-26-2010, 11:09 PM
^
Nope.

Glad you're here the second after I post that to comment on it. Sit by the computer all night!

Anyways, I'm going to bed. I'll read your arrogant comments whenever I get the chance. Bye.

CityofTreez
03-26-2010, 11:11 PM
Deppends on what he does and wich trainers he gets the next couple years.

Are you kidding me?

Trainers will predict his future? If Stan VanGundy can get the best out of him, them what the hell do trainers have to do with his output?

get out of here with that! He has the size and numbers to be one of the best elite centers in this league for years to come! He already made it to the NBA Finals and his team was missing Jameer Nelson (1/2 the season, losing chemistry)



This ain't the ****ing MLB New York Mets! Do you mean specialists/advisors?

ankit
03-26-2010, 11:31 PM
He has a good chance in being a top 3, free throws Howard you need to nail them and the sky is the limit for you, Howard is not a good center but a great center, he is the most dominant center of this generation. Anyone name me a center better than Howard at his position, sorry Houston but i will judge Yao when he is back. :cool:

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2010, 12:26 AM
Are you kidding me?

Trainers will predict his future? If Stan VanGundy can get the best out of him, them what the hell do trainers have to do with his output?

I'm not going to say "trainers" have a huge impact, or at least not that all of them do, but trainers and coaches (and I mean coaches outside of the head coach), can have a huge impact on a players improvement. Phil Jackson, as an assistant coach in Chi-town, had a huge impact on Scottie Pippen's improvement as a player. Trainers in Phoenix have been credit by Nash, Hill and Shaq for helping to extend their playing careers and shooting coaches have helped players improve their range (Okur has given credit to a shooting coach who was working with the Jazz in his second season with the Jazz).

Players are the ones who ultimately dictate where their careers go, but it is ignorant to pretend that coaches and trainers can't have a huge impact on a player's career. Bruce Bowen, Ben Wallace, Stephan Jackson, Brad Miller, Jamario Moon, John Starks and Anthony Mason are just a few players who have been passed up by some teams and have had coaches who knew how to employ their unique skill sets to turn them into quality starters and in some cases all-stars or championship role players, and Bosh most recently had the work ethic and guidance to help add 15+ pounds of muscle coming into the season this year.

Basketball is a team sport, and that "team" extends beyond the players on the court, and into the training team, assistant coaches, head coaches and specialty coaches.

So yes, the right trainers and specialty coaches could help extend careers, improve games and stregthen conditioning and increase muscle mass which are some of the things that separate starters from all-stars and in some cases all-stars from HOFers.

Raph12
03-27-2010, 02:08 AM
Seriously people, let it go, he's 24 years old, stop comparing him to all-time greats... Bring this thread back up 10 years later.