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JordansBulls
03-25-2010, 10:30 AM
Greater Chance to Make the Hall of Fame - Pau Gasol or Manu Ginobili

Miltown34
03-25-2010, 10:39 AM
bro it's not even really close. Paul doesn't have all the injury history he might win 2-3 championships and his averages over his career will be like 18-20 pts and 10 rebs. Manu he came off the bench doesn't put up all-star numbers and will not have the stats that Gasol will plus Gasol might even have more playoff success and will be remebered as a legitimate star side-kick.

masalex1205
03-25-2010, 10:52 AM
bro it's not even really close. Paul doesn't have all the injury history he might win 2-3 championships and his averages over his career will be like 18-20 pts and 10 rebs. Manu he came off the bench doesn't put up all-star numbers and will not have the stats that Gasol will plus Gasol might even have more playoff success and will be remebered as a legitimate star side-kick.


not even close? Ginobili has won three championships (vs. the 2-3 championships Gasol *might* win) and the only reason Manu came off the bench is because he asked to come off the bench. Manu and Gasol are both international b-ball icons. When you think about it, Gasol has had only 2 relevant years

Gasol's stats really aren't that much better and also consider that Manu has played with Tony Parker and Tim Duncan, arguably the best PF of all time and Gasol played with nobody when the Grizzlies were a joke. Additionally, anybody who's watched Ginobili over his career knows that he does the little things, the intangibles that stats don't pick up that wins championships.

Gasol's career averages:
19 pts 9 rbs 3.5 assists

Manu's career averages:
15 pts 5 rebounds 3.5 assists 1.4 steals

It's def. debatable but to say it's "not even close?" Come on "Bro"

Avenged
03-25-2010, 11:27 AM
This is a tough one. And it's close. Gasol has the international success but so does Ginobili. They are both NBA champions. As of right now I would say Manu but his window is already closing. Gasol is 29 and has a couple years left to go. If the Lakers continue their success I will go with Gasol.

king4day
03-25-2010, 11:32 AM
I give the edge to Pau. He was doing this with Memphis for a while and was clearly the reason LA was able to win a ring.
Manu is great, but at his position, he seems more suited to a #2 role where Pau doesn't have to be.

RaiderLakersA's
03-25-2010, 11:45 AM
If as Kobe declines Pau starts to shift into the position of the Lakers 1b option, I think Pau will have the better shot of getting in ahead of Manu.

That said, I see Manu as HOF worthy. He's one of the few players that I like not in a Lakers uniform. All heart and competitive fire, injury plagued or not.

Blackjack24
03-25-2010, 12:13 PM
Their career averages and highlights make similar cases so far, but I think Gasol is on a better team now, and has better health prospects going forward. His future stats should be better-- and so I'm leaning toward the Spaniard.

JNA17
03-25-2010, 12:52 PM
Pau Gasol

29$JerZ
03-25-2010, 12:57 PM
Manu

GodsSon
03-25-2010, 01:02 PM
I'll have to say Manu since he's played a more integral role on an annual contender for years

Sadds The Gr8
03-25-2010, 01:03 PM
Manu...more rings and only player in history to win euro title, olympic gold, and NBA title.

mikantsass
03-25-2010, 01:06 PM
Manu...more rings and only player in history to win euro title, olympic gold, and NBA title.

and there you have it. His NBA resume is better and his international resume is better.

kbrill21
03-25-2010, 01:13 PM
Marc Gasol

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 01:26 PM
Worthless question.

Both Make it at first ballot.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 01:26 PM
and there you have it. His NBA resume is better and his international resume is better.

really?

Did Manu ever lead a team? and take them to playoffs?

coloradobuff
03-25-2010, 01:30 PM
good question..taking manu

Raph12
03-25-2010, 01:34 PM
Manu, only player to win the Euroleague, Olympic gold medal and, count em, 3 NBA titles (no one has ever won the championship in those 3 leagues besides Manu).

Joshtd1
03-25-2010, 02:19 PM
Not sure about Gasol's international success, but Manu's international success should put in in the HOF.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 02:21 PM
btw Manu has not won the World Cup.

Gasol has.

Sadds The Gr8
03-25-2010, 02:28 PM
really?

Did Manu ever lead a team? and take them to playoffs?

LOL that has absolutely nothing to do with making the hall of fame...when Pau led his team, they got smacked anyways...

PLAYERS FAN
03-25-2010, 02:29 PM
Manu...more rings and only player in history to win euro title, olympic gold, and NBA title.

Case close and he's not soft and Spain won the FIBA gold without Pau;)

Joshtd1
03-25-2010, 02:35 PM
btw Manu has not won the World Cup.

Gasol has.

Manu led the Argentina team to the Olympic gold medal

Gasol hasnt

Raph12
03-25-2010, 03:21 PM
Manu led the Argentina team to the Olympic gold medal

Gasol hasnt

This and you can add two more NBA titles to his credits.

JordansBulls
03-25-2010, 03:34 PM
btw Manu has not won the World Cup.

Gasol has.

When did Gasol when the World Cup?

xBLAMEITON24x
03-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Gasol

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 03:40 PM
When did Gasol when the World Cup?

2006 in tokio. Finals agaisnt greece who had defeated team usa.


btw World cups is much hardr to win than Olympics.

Olympics = 16 teams 4 of each "continent" regardelss if some continents suck more han others.

World Cup = 32 Teams USA TEAM ` 16 of the BEST eruopean teams + the BEST south american teams and only 1 or 2 bad teams.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 03:42 PM
Case close and he's not soft and Spain won the FIBA gold without Pau;)

really i would swear if you search in wiki or wahatever he was the MVP of the tourney

xBLAMEITON24x
03-25-2010, 03:44 PM
btw Manu has not won the World Cup.

Gasol has.

FIFA World Cup= Soccer

You mean FIBA World Championship

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Fiba world Championsip , Ok.

xBLAMEITON24x
03-25-2010, 03:49 PM
Case close and he's not soft and Spain won the FIBA gold without Pau;)

Spain has only won one FIBA Championship and Pau was named MVP

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 03:53 PM
Anyway as i said both belong in the top 5 best Foreign ( asi in NOT ELIGIBLE FOR TEAM USA ) Nba players Ever and both will make it to the Hof ar first Ballot so will Dirk

sunnydayin'zona
03-25-2010, 04:02 PM
really?

Did Manu ever lead a team? and take them to playoffs?

did pau?

mikantsass
03-25-2010, 04:02 PM
really?

Did Manu ever lead a team? and take them to playoffs?

Manu was a key part of 3 championship teams. How about Gasoft?

Avenged
03-25-2010, 04:04 PM
did pau?

He lead the Grizzlies and yeah he led them to the playoffs even though they didnt do anything at all once they made it lol.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 04:07 PM
he did 3 times.

with his mighty compagnions chocolate willimas, Lorenzen Wright, Shane battier, Stromile swift, Brevin Knight, Worn out Damon Stoudamire, Mike Miller, James posey etc.


Mmmm how many allstars do they add up between all of them? :D

goku
03-25-2010, 04:16 PM
really?

Did Manu ever lead a team? and take them to playoffs?

to championships not just the playoffs ...and if you were goin by making playoffs t-mac would be lock in hof too

jackdawson
03-25-2010, 04:22 PM
Manu. Don't assume he is a bench player, he comes off the bench for a reason. Integral part of 3 championship teams. nuff said.

jackdawson
03-25-2010, 04:25 PM
really?

Did Manu ever lead a team? and take them to playoffs?

Dude, your comments are gonna be very predictable here since most of your posts are Pau related.

Raph12
03-25-2010, 04:28 PM
he did 3 times.

with his mighty compagnions chocolate willimas, Lorenzen Wright, Shane battier, Stromile swift, Brevin Knight, Worn out Damon Stoudamire, Mike Miller, James posey etc.


Mmmm how many allstars do they add up between all of them? :D

That's a team of solid role players.

In comparison, AI had a superstar-studded cast of: Aaron McKie, Dikembe Mutombo, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Jumaine Jones, George Lynch, Todd MacCulloch, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell (8.3mpg [not the defensive specialist he is]), Kevin Ollie and Rodney Buford... But he still took that team all the way to the Finals and handed the best team in Playoffs history (11-0 before playing Philly) their first loss of the postseason behind AI's 48pts.

Now I'm only comparing AI to Gasol just to show you what a true leader does with a mediocre team, Gasol's teammates weren't that bad.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 04:32 PM
That's a team of solid role players.

In comparison, AI had a superstar-studded cast of: Aaron McKie, Dikembe Mutombo, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Jumaine Jones, George Lynch, Todd MacCulloch, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell (8.3mpg [not the defensive specialist he is]), Kevin Ollie and Rodney Buford... But he still took that team all the way to the Finals and handed the best team in Playoffs history (11-0 before playing Philly) their first loss of the postseason behind AI's 48pts.

Now I'm only comparing AI to Gasol just to show you what a true leader does with a mediocre team, Gasol's teammates weren't that bad.

HOF lock too since he is one of the bes Defensive players of all time

Chronz
03-25-2010, 04:33 PM
That's a team of solid role players.

In comparison, AI had a superstar-studded cast of: Aaron McKie, Dikembe Mutombo, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Jumaine Jones, George Lynch, Todd MacCulloch, Matt Geiger, Raja Bell (8.3mpg [not the defensive specialist he is]), Kevin Ollie and Rodney Buford... But he still took that team all the way to the Finals and handed the best team in Playoffs history (11-0 before playing Philly) their first loss of the postseason behind AI's 48pts.

Now I'm only comparing AI to Gasol just to show you what a true leader does with a mediocre team, Gasol's teammates weren't that bad.
Of course he took them to the finals, he had the best supporting cast. Defensive talent is still talent. And yes they won a game, the Lakers were rusty from waiting so long for AI to make the Finals. Obviously AI is a better player but you glorify the man. I just hope you arent trying to say that 1 win makes them a better team than all the teams the Lakers swept.

The_Pharouh
03-25-2010, 05:27 PM
Spain has only won one FIBA Championship and Pau was named MVP

not speaking for anybody but I think he meant that Pau didn't play the final ( surprisingly that was probably Spain best game in the tournament :confused: )

my pick goes for Manu but it is close

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 05:36 PM
not speaking for anybody but I think he meant that Pau didn't play the final ( surprisingly that was probably Spain best game in the tournament :confused: )

my pick goes for Manu but it is close


i know what he meant but its simply a ridicule argument.

I mean ive never seen anyone say Kareem does not have 6 rings but 5.

Folowing that logic he wouldnt have the 1980 one.

Raph12
03-25-2010, 05:45 PM
Of course he took them to the finals, he had the best supporting cast. Defensive talent is still talent. And yes they won a game, the Lakers were rusty from waiting so long for AI to make the Finals. Obviously AI is a better player but you glorify the man. I just hope you arent trying to say that 1 win makes them a better team than all the teams the Lakers swept.

No I'm trying to say his run to the Finals was the most impressive of any player on a bad team.

And defensive talent (although I don't consider Snow, McKie, Hill, Lynch, etc.. to be good defenders [Mutombo was the only exceptional defensive player on the team]) can only take you so far, the fact that no one on the team avged even 15ppg makes the feat that much more impressive.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 05:58 PM
mckie lynch and snow were Outstanding defenders.

Raph12
03-25-2010, 06:10 PM
mckie lynch and snow were Outstanding defenders.

Wrong, Snow and McKie were avg (slightly above avg at best) and Lynch was washed up (and only played 22mpg).

Chronz
03-25-2010, 06:24 PM
No I'm trying to say his run to the Finals was the most impressive of any player on a bad team.

And defensive talent (although I don't consider Snow, McKie, Hill, Lynch, etc.. to be good defenders [Mutombo was the only exceptional defensive player on the team]) can only take you so far, the fact that no one on the team avged even 15ppg makes the feat that much more impressive.
Mutombo > any player Gasol had alongside him

Just sayin, he did get more out of his talent but its not that impressive.

PS You should rethink your stance on their defensive talent. Not sure what you mean by defense can only take you so far. When you have the best defensive support in the league it can obviously do enough that you can make it to the finals on horrendous shooting %'s.

Chronz
03-25-2010, 06:27 PM
Wrong, Snow and McKie were avg (slightly above avg at best) and Lynch was washed up (and only played 22mpg).

Wrong was your comeback? Snow was easily an elite defender and was the man who started the whole, AI needs to play alongside big PG's to cover his back. Mckie was decent but Lynch was still great, its what kept him in the league so long after that year but he was injured so its a moot point. He didnt last long during that run but lets not call him above avg at best. Lets not forget Tyrone Hill.

magichatnumber9
03-25-2010, 06:38 PM
Great thread GB. I really am stumped.

Raph12
03-25-2010, 08:47 PM
Mutombo > any player Gasol had alongside him

Just sayin, he did get more out of his talent but its not that impressive.

PS You should rethink your stance on their defensive talent. Not sure what you mean by defense can only take you so far. When you have the best defensive support in the league it can obviously do enough that you can make it to the finals on horrendous shooting %'s.

Mutombo > any player Gasol had alongside him ON DEFENSE

When you have no offensive threat on your team (besides AI), your defense can only do so much. Btw they were ranked 5th in defensive efficiency and don't say because AI brought them down because he was among league leaders in drating, dwinshares and spg.


Wrong was your comeback? Snow was easily an elite defender and was the man who started the whole, AI needs to play alongside big PG's to cover his back. Mckie was decent but Lynch was still great, its what kept him in the league so long after that year but he was injured so its a moot point. He didnt last long during that run but lets not call him above avg at best. Lets not forget Tyrone Hill.

Snow was a good defender (not elite), but was literally lit up by every guy he guarded in the playoffs (Reggie, VC, Ray and Kobe). McKie was average at best, while Lynch was great, but he played only 22mpg due to injuries, so I don't think it is that big of a contribution. I didn't say Lynch was just above avg, I said he was washed up and only played 22mpg. Hill was decent but it's not like he was a shutdown defender.

JordansBulls
03-25-2010, 08:51 PM
Great thread GB. I really am stumped.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_LMAO.gif

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 08:54 PM
are we talking bout getting out of that east that didnt win a title from 1998 to 2004? and that has only won 3 titles in the last 12 years?
Incomparison to a west that featured Prime Kings, Chamionship Spurs, Almost champions MAvs, absoultely amazing Suns etc etc.
And btw a team with 1 good offensive player and a Very good defensive core will ALWAYS get further than a core with 1 offensive player 2 or so ok offensive players and absolutely NO D.

The only good defenders in those Grizz teams were Posey and Battier.

Mutombo s not the greatest offensive player ever but he still could score some anyway.

Raph12
03-25-2010, 09:04 PM
are we talking bout getting out of that east that didnt win a title from 1998 to 2004? and that has only won 3 titles in the last 12 years?
Incomparison to a west that featured Prime Kings, Chamionship Spurs, Almost champions MAvs, absoultely amazing Suns etc etc.
And btw a team with 1 good offensive player and a Very good defensive core will ALWAYS get further than a core with 1 offensive player 2 or so ok offensive players and absolutely NO D.

The only good defenders in those Grizz teams were Posey and Battier.

Mutombo s not the greatest offensive player ever but he still could score some anyway.

Mutombo couldn't even drop 15 a game, and that EC team was the only one that beat LA in the playoffs that season, and that player was the only guy to win the scoring title, steals title, AS MVP, League MVP and get to the Finals in the same season besides the GOAT, Michael Air Jordan.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 10:08 PM
how many attempts did he have?

what wa shis fg%

how many of teh teams shots did he take?

I thought so.

I cant believe there are still Iverson fans out there.

Chronz
03-25-2010, 11:24 PM
Mutombo > any player Gasol had alongside him ON DEFENSE
LOL you sure showed me. Name a better player if your going to drag this out. Mutombo is a better player than anyone Gasol got to play with, PERIOD.


When you have no offensive threat on your team (besides AI), your defense can only do so much.
Which is why when they tried to get him some offensive help instead the players struggled to find their niche, did better once they left his side, and the team wasnt as dominant. Again it does enough that you can make the finals despite chucking at a horrible rate. Give him offensive help in exchange and the team is worse, so it does more than offense for AI. Its been AI's problem throughout most of his career.


Btw they were ranked 5th in defensive efficiency
In the East behind Miami and NYK by the slimmest of margins, 2 teams lacking star power, we're comparing stars here.


and don't say because AI brought them down because he was among league leaders in drating, dwinshares and spg.
A byproduct of his teammates, its why his marks fly all over the place throughout his career and why all his Philly teams had higher defensive marks when AI wasnt on the court. You have to really know how to break down DRTG to use it and even then its prone to mistakes. AI is one of those mistakes but yes in those days, be it due to his teammates or genuine effort he didnt look as bad.

Just look at his defensive rtg compared to Snow's, only a moron would think AI was a better defender, DRTG kind of undersells great defenders who get stops instead of forcing turnovers.



Snow was a good defender (not elite)
He was elite


but was literally lit up by every guy he guarded in the playoffs (Reggie, VC, Ray and Kobe)
You mean the guys that played AI's position that he was utterly helpless against. Kobe has credited Snow as one of the toughest post defenders in the game. Not many PG's can hold their own against 2's, Snow was a great helper as well.

Kobes words on the games best defender in that time, "Eric Snow has always done a great job. Aaron McKie, too... Bruce Bowen because of his length

Snow has always been heralded as one of the games better perimeter defenders, hell he was DPOY of his conference in college (funny tidbit, his brother was DPOY Lineback in HS, and he couldve followed him in college as a defensive back if he didnt want to join the NBA, it just runs in his blood) so where your getting the idea he wasnt elite is beyond me, but PLEASE provide some insight.

AI's words on Snows defense; "When Eric's not on the floor, it can get rough for me,".

Dwyer lists him as the 2nd best defensive PG of the decade.



. McKie was average at best, while Lynch was great, but he played only 22mpg due to injuries, so I don't think it is that big of a contribution.
Agreed


I didn't say Lynch was just above avg, I said he was washed up and only played 22mpg. Hill was decent but it's not like he was a shutdown defender.
Thats the point of having so many quality defenders around you, the kind that allowed you to roam and gamble and not defend your position. Its why AI's steal marks were so much better when Snow was his teammate.

Chronz
03-25-2010, 11:26 PM
Mutombo couldn't even drop 15 a game, and that EC team was the only one that beat LA in the playoffs that season, and that player was the only guy to win the scoring title, steals title, AS MVP, League MVP and get to the Finals in the same season besides the GOAT, Michael Air Jordan.

Mutombo didnt have to drop 15 a game to have great impact than anyone Gasol played with. And again do you really think them winning 1 game against a team that was rusty from waiting for them make them a better team than the Spurs or Kings? It was an undeserved MVP even AI admits that.

evadatam5150
03-25-2010, 11:34 PM
not even close? Ginobili has won three championships (vs. the 2-3 championships Gasol *might* win) and the only reason Manu came off the bench is because he asked to come off the bench. Manu and Gasol are both international b-ball icons. When you think about it, Gasol has had only 2 relevant years

Gasol's stats really aren't that much better and also consider that Manu has played with Tony Parker and Tim Duncan, arguably the best PF of all time and Gasol played with nobody when the Grizzlies were a joke. Additionally, anybody who's watched Ginobili over his career knows that he does the little things, the intangibles that stats don't pick up that wins championships.

Gasol's career averages:
19 pts 9 rbs 3.5 assists

Manu's career averages:
15 pts 5 rebounds 3.5 assists 1.4 steals

It's def. debatable but to say it's "not even close?" Come on "Bro"

Simmer Down Homer Bob.. What's truly hard to believe is that anyone thinks Ginobili is Hall worthy.. Seriously.. Ginobili in the HOF.. ?? For what..?? Best Bald spot..?? Dude played on a loaded team, and yes he does the small things well.. But not HOF worthy.. :facepalm:

Chronz
03-25-2010, 11:38 PM
People measuring Manu by per game averages arent getting an idea of just how skilled/dominant he was. Spurs played a deliberate pace and conserved his energy for the post season (its why you never measure the Spurs by their W/L record despite what HCA-mongers think. Manu had a brilliant playoff run in 05, Gasol cant top that run, yet. Remember Manu was arguably the finals MVP.

Hellcrooner
03-25-2010, 11:45 PM
Simmer Down Homer Bob.. What's truly hard to believe is that anyone thinks Ginobili is Hall worthy.. Seriously.. Ginobili in the HOF.. ?? For what..?? Best Bald spot..?? Dude played on a loaded team, and yes he does the small things well.. But not HOF worthy.. :facepalm:

you seem to forget, ignore or simply are not aware of.

its the BASKETBALL HOF not the NBA Hof ich means everything he has done in FIBA ( winning euroleague, italina leage, and the olympics) would ALREADY grant him an spot, add the rings to that and the allstars.

Both players Pau and HIm are a LOCK in the HOf unless the election rules are changed ( there are some ultrachauvinistic americans asking for it)

but wll in any case even THAT would probably be able to take tem down because both layer can still add some more nba rings wich means they woudl ahve a stron case regqrdless.

ldc62
03-26-2010, 12:49 AM
They will both make the international bball HOF

KB24PG16
03-26-2010, 12:58 AM
tough one... i dont think either will get in but if pau wins more championships as the number 2 man i think he would get it... manu does have a couple championships but he has come off the bench for the last couple years