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ko8e24
03-18-2010, 04:52 PM
*Note, there was no track record for NBA Finals MVP until the 1969 NBA Finals.

George Mikan (Minneapolis Lakers): 1949-1950, 1952-1954 (3-peat)

Bill Russell (Boston Celtics): 1959-1966 (8-peat), 1968-1969 (Jerry West of the Lakers was Finals MVP in '69-rare occurrence for a player on the losing team)

Magic Johnson (Los Angeles Lakers): 1987-1988 (James Worthy Finals MVP in '88)

Isiah Thomas (Detroit Pistons): 1989-1990 (Joe Dumars Finals MVP in '89)

Michael Jordan: 1991-1993 (3-peat), 1996-1998 (3-peat)

Hakeem Olajuwon: 1994-1995

Shaquille O'Neal: 2000-2002 (3-peat)



So my question is, if the Lakers repeat (and either Kobe or Gasol get Finals MVP), since the championship will be under the leadership of Kobe Bryant, and he joins the guys above him, does this increase his legendary status and with all of his other accomplishments team-wise and individual-wise, perhaps move him past some guys like Bird, Kareem, Wilt, West and Duncan in the all-time rankings?


Because what you have to take into account is that greats like Wilt Chamberlain (Philadelphia Warriors), Jerry West (Los Angeles Lakers), Larry Bird (Boston Celtics), Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs), and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Lew Alcindor (Milwaukee Bucks) all had legendary, iconic, hall of fame careers, but never truly led a team to back-to-back titles.




(PS, there is no Kobe homerism here, I just wanted to get your take on this since we haven't had a repeat NBA Champion in the league since Shaq-led 3peat Lakers of 00, 01, 02. And please, let's not make this into a Kobe Vs MJ or Kobe vs LeBron thread. Thank you.)

***Also, I'm not putting down elite teams like Orlando, Cleveland, Boston, Dallas, Denver, etc. I'm just saying, from a HYPOTHETICAL STANDPOINT THAT IF THE LAKERS REPEAT.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:00 PM
good question. Its all subjective I guess. I don't necessarily think he passes any of those players, but he does indeed join a small list of players who led their teams to back to back championships, and his legacy does indeed grow.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:01 PM
I do think Kobe breaks into the top 10 of all time by the time he is finished. And that is even if he doesn't win another ring.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 05:06 PM
I do think Kobe breaks into the top 10 of all time by the time he is finished. And that is even if he doesn't win another ring.

So your opinion is that Kobe may not be definitively top 10 at the present moment. I may not agree with your opinion on that, but I do respect it.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:07 PM
So your opinion is that Kobe may not be definitively top 10 at the present moment. I may not agree with your opinion on that, but I do respect it.

I would seriously have to think about it. But not off the top of my head. I think those spots are reserved for players who are done, to look at the entire body of work. But there is no question that Kobe will end up a top 10 player, and you may be right, he could be already. I just have a very difficult time saying a player currently playing is of that class.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 05:10 PM
I would seriously have to think about it. But not off the top of my head. I think those spots are reserved for players who are done, to look at the entire body of work. But there is no question that Kobe will end up a top 10 player, and you may be right, he could be already. I just have a very difficult time saying a player currently playing is of that class.

Well, Tim Duncan is another one of those "active" players who I feel should get serious consideration as being regarded as a top-10 player of all-time with other active players like Shaq and Kobe.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:11 PM
Well, Tim Duncan is another one of those "active" players who I feel should get serious consideration as being regarded as a top-10 player of all-time with other active players like Shaq and Kobe.

yep. and can those 3 really knock 3 players out? Tough call.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:12 PM
not disagreeing with you on that. Just my opinion. I would never belittle someone who had Kobe the 6th best all time for example, if they had rational behind it. Just not my deal yet

Chronz
03-18-2010, 05:12 PM
So your saying it hurts Duncan and Birds legacy that they never won it back 2 back?

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 05:13 PM
yep. and can those 3 really knock 3 players out? Tough call.

Valid point. Shaq is near the end, so we can maybe speculate his top-10 status, and the fact that he has led a 3-peat team surely helps his case. Timmy D maybe has 4 yrs left, and Kobe maybe 6 yrs left.

ChiSox219
03-18-2010, 05:14 PM
There's no reason why the Lakers shouldn't win the title this year. They have the most talent, the best coach and HCA at least until the Finals.

With all that said, a title can't hurt a player's resume. I think it comes down to how they win it. Does Kobe explode at average 35 points on 50% in the Finals or does he shoot 40% and get bailed out by Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 05:15 PM
So your saying it hurts Duncan and Birds legacy that they never won it back 2 back?

Nope, just saying that those guys, where they are now, will probably stay "idle" while other guys who maybe potentially lead their teams to back-to-back titles can possibly move up or even surpass them. Guys like Duncan or Bird, once their ranks are established, won't go any higher up, but they won't be devalued or disregarded where they would fall a ridiculous 5 or 6 spots down in the all-time rank. I'm not stating either one of those cases.

Much respect to Duncan and Bird, but what's you overall take on this Chronz? How much does leading a repeat championship squad have a bearing on one's legacy? Interested to know your opinion on that.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:16 PM
So your saying it hurts Duncan and Birds legacy that they never won it back 2 back?

I personally don't think it matters in the negative way. I think it can influence in a positive way (Dumars)

Indi23
03-18-2010, 05:17 PM
I'll have my small input here, but first i would like to say i am not a lakers fan. For me I think when shaq brought the three peat to LA he did have Kobe, they were both superstars IMO at the time even though the offense was through shaq. So it is hard for me to see Kobe not ranking in the top 10 teir. If Kobe wins again this year it will be because of him, never mind the talk people give about how" his supporting cast was insane" every championship team requires a superb supporting cast but its the person their supporting who is the consistent scorer.

To get back to my point when Lakers pulled off the 3peat I believe the "supporting cast" was actually supporting two players even though it might have looked like it was Shaqs team.

asandhu23
03-18-2010, 05:18 PM
stupid thread. kobe will not move ahead of players like wilt because he won 2 consecutive championships

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 05:19 PM
There's no reason why the Lakers shouldn't win the title this year. They have the most talent, the best coach and HCA at least until the Finals.

With all that said, a title can't hurt a player's resume. I think it comes down to how they win it. Does Kobe explode at average 35 points on 50% in the Finals or does he shoot 40% and get bailed out by Gasol/Odom/Bynum.

Well again, in '88, Worthy had a triple double in game 7 of the finals against Detroit, and was fantastic all-series and won Finals MVP. But, that title was under the watch of Magic Johnson. Even when Kareem won Finals MVP in '85 against Boston, it sure added to his legacy, but nonetheless, he was THE GUY in his Milwaukee days and early yrs with the Lakers before Magic's arrival, so that '85 championship was under Magic's watch. Only thing about the 85 title, Lakers did not repeat in '86 or win the previous yr in '84 (when they lost to Boston)

Just like this yr, if LA repeats, and either Gasol or even Bynum wins Finals MVP, it will still be under the watch of Kobe Bryant, since he's the leader.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 05:22 PM
stupid thread. kobe will not move ahead of players like wilt because he won 2 consecutive championships

Now compare your post to everyone else's post here. No need to put down a thread if you don't like it. Just simply state "I disagree, no way Kobe moves up", or just don't post at all.

ChiSox219
03-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Well again, in '88, Worthy had a triple double in game 7 of the finals against Detroit, and was fantastic all-series and won Finals MVP. But, that title was under the watch of Magic Johnson. Even when Kareem won Finals MVP in '85 against Boston, it sure added to his legacy, but nonetheless, he was THE GUY in his Milwaukee days and early yrs with the Lakers before Magic's arrival, so that '85 championship was under Magic's watch. Only thing about the 85 title, Lakers did not repeat in '86 or win the previous yr in '84 (when they lost to Boston)

Just like this yr, if LA repeats, and either Gasol or even Bynum wins Finals MVP, it will still be under the watch of Kobe Bryant, since he's the leader.

I question Kobe's leadership as should everyone.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:35 PM
I question Kobe's leadership as should everyone.

I do too. He went a long way to convince me last year, but I still think he is not a very good leader in the locker room. He is on the floor much of the time, but you can just sense a tension between him and his teammates.

RaiderLakersA's
03-18-2010, 05:44 PM
Great thread, but it gives me flashbacks to last year when everyone foolishly believed that he needed to win one more title in order to cement his legacy.

Kobe has had a direct hand in 6 Lakers appearances in the Finals. He has had a direct hand in winning 4 of them. It may take 10 - 20 years from now, but eventually I think basketball fans will gradually wrap their minds around that fact. When you add that tidy little slice of reality to his body of work, the argument can be made that Kobe, if he retired today, is already top 10. Certainly top 20.

To have a direct hand in winning a 5th title, repeat or otherwise, or even making it to a 7th NBA Finals, undoubtedly secures his position and bumps someone else out of the top 10, but for haters and homers. He will be amongst the elite class of "Perrennial Championship Contenders." Some guys live on the outskirts of that burg. Others have a house in the neighborhood. Kobe is one of the few guys that lives on the Championship Court cul de sac. If a gated community can have a gated community, then that is where Kobe will reside.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:47 PM
Great thread, but it gives me flashbacks to last year when everyone foolishly believed that he needed to win one more title in order to cement his legacy.
Kobe has had a direct hand in 6 Lakers appearances in the Finals. He has had a direct hand in winning 4 of them. It may take 10 - 20 years from now, but eventually I think basketball fans will gradually wrap their minds around that fact. When you add that tidy little slice of reality to his body of work, the argument can be made that Kobe, if he retired today, is already top 10. Certainly top 20.

To have a direct hand in winning a 5th title, repeat or otherwise, or even making it to a 7th NBA Finals, undoubtedly secures his position and bumps someone else out of the top 10, but for haters and homers. He will be amongst the elite class of "Perrennial Championship Contenders." Some guys live on the outskirts of that burg. Others have a house in the neighborhood. Kobe is one of the few guys that lives on the Championship Court cul de sac. If a gated community can have a gated community, then that is where Kobe will reside.


um, that was valid. He was second banana on his first three teams man. But the remainder of your post, until you described the hood', is right on

tmacsc2
03-18-2010, 05:57 PM
John Elway

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 06:57 PM
I question Kobe's leadership as should everyone.

:confused: Care to explain.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 06:58 PM
John Elway

I had no clue this was the NFL forums. My bad.

ARMIN12NBA
03-18-2010, 07:32 PM
:confused: Care to explain.

There is no explanation because it would mostly be conjecture based purely on bias. Is there any reason to question Kobe's leadership? Not really. He takes time to write analysis for players (when he can easily blow them off and tell them to do it themselves or get it from coaches). He takes time to go over game tape with players (again, things they can do themselves or with coaches). No other Laker really does this. Fisher is a inspirational type leader, but Kobe is the one pushing players in practice, working with players personally, getting them through drills, etc. Anything else (like the supposed "sensed tension") is purely subjective and doesn't warrant much merit especially since I would say, in sports and in the competitive atmosphere, there are going to be trying moments where you will definitely see tension amongst teammates and players flaring up at each other (Ariza, mostly known as a well mannered player, got in Sasha Vujacic's face and screamed at him after not passing him the ball; would I call him bullish or selfish? No. Heat of the game/moment). I would simply call it common.

Lakersfan2483
03-18-2010, 07:45 PM
There is no explanation because it would mostly be conjecture based purely on bias. Is there any reason to question Kobe's leadership? Not really. He takes time to write analysis for players (when he can easily blow them off and tell them to do it themselves or get it from coaches). He takes time to go over game tape with players (again, things they can do themselves or with coaches). No other Laker really does this. Fisher is a inspirational type leader, but Kobe is the one pushing players in practice, working with players personally, getting them through drills, etc. Anything else (like the supposed "sensed tension") is purely subjective and doesn't warrant much merit especially since I would say, in sports and in the competitive atmosphere, there are going to be trying moments where you will definitely see tension amongst teammates and players flaring up at each other (Ariza, mostly known as a well mannered player, got in Sasha Vujacic's face and screamed at him after not passing him the ball; would I call him bullish or selfish? No. Heat of the game/moment). I would simply call it common.

Good post. A lot people that don't follow the Lakers closely are just speculating and or adding their two cents when they don't know what really goes on. Based on everything I have read and watched in terms of his interactions with his teammates, they always compliment Kobe's leadership as does Phil Jackson. Kobe has nothing left to prove, he's proven he can win multiple titles and at this point, he's looking to add to his great legacy..... The question now is, how far will he move up in terms of the top ten players of all time? He's in the the top ten, I have him at no. 10. If he can continue to play at a high level and win more titles, he will definitely move up the list.

KnicksorBust
03-18-2010, 07:48 PM
*Note, there was no track record for NBA Finals MVP until the 1969 NBA Finals.

George Mikan (Minneapolis Lakers): 1949-1950, 1952-1954 (3-peat)

Bill Russell (Boston Celtics): 1959-1966 (8-peat), 1968-1969 (Jerry West of the Lakers was Finals MVP in '69-rare occurrence for a player on the losing team)

Magic Johnson (Los Angeles Lakers): 1987-1988 (James Worthy Finals MVP in '88)

Isiah Thomas (Detroit Pistons): 1989-1990 (Joe Dumars Finals MVP in '89)

Michael Jordan: 1991-1993 (3-peat), 1996-1998 (3-peat)

Hakeem Olajuwon: 1994-1995

Shaquille O'Neal: 2000-2002 (3-peat)



So my question is, if the Lakers repeat (and either Kobe or Gasol get Finals MVP), since the championship will be under the leadership of Kobe Bryant, and he joins the guys above him, does this increase his legendary status and with all of his other accomplishments team-wise and individual-wise, perhaps move him past some guys like Bird, Kareem, Wilt, West and Duncan in the all-time rankings?


Because what you have to take into account is that greats like Wilt Chamberlain (Philadelphia Warriors), Jerry West (Los Angeles Lakers), Larry Bird (Boston Celtics), Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs), and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Lew Alcindor (Milwaukee Bucks) all had legendary, iconic, hall of fame careers, but never truly led a team to back-to-back titles.




(PS, there is no Kobe homerism here, I just wanted to get your take on this since we haven't had a repeat NBA Champion in the league since Shaq-led 3peat Lakers of 00, 01, 02. And please, let's not make this into a Kobe Vs MJ or Kobe vs LeBron thread. Thank you.)

***Also, I'm not putting down elite teams like Orlando, Cleveland, Boston, Dallas, Denver, etc. I'm just saying, from a HYPOTHETICAL STANDPOINT THAT IF THE LAKERS REPEAT.

Without a doubt. IMO, that would probably put Kobe top 7 and really the window to win a title will still be open 2-3 years after as well. Top 3/4 is in play for him.

Lakersfan2483
03-18-2010, 07:49 PM
I question Kobe's leadership as should everyone.

Only biased non-Laker fans would question his leadership. He's proven he can lead a team to a title and has been to 6 NBA finals over his hall of fame career. Bottom-line: he's a winner and an NBA champion, something you can't take away from him. The fact that you continue to bash him shows how immature some of you sports fans are. Give him his credit.

Lakersfan2483
03-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Without a doubt. IMO, that would probably put Kobe top 7 and really the window to win a title will still be open 2-3 years after as well. Top 3/4 is in play for him.

Good post. I always respect the quality of your posts as you put a lot of thought into your posts and aren't biased.

ChiSox219
03-18-2010, 07:58 PM
Only biased Laker fans would not question his leadership.

Fixed and it's not an issue that I'm going to waste time arguing.

Bruno
03-18-2010, 07:59 PM
um, that was valid. He was second banana on his first three teams man. But the remainder of your post, until you described the hood', is right on

Calling him 2nd banana doesn't really give a fair description of his contribution to those teams, especially the 2001 team-IMO.

Bryant 2000-2001- 29.4ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 47%FG, 82% FT, over 16 games. Playoff leader in win shares (3.8), PER- 25.

Shaq 2000-2001- 30.7ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55%FG, 52% FT, 16 games. Win share 3.7, PER- 28.7.

Has a second banana ever put up those kind of numbers for a championship team? A lot of top dogs on championship teams in the past haven't put up numbers like that. He took more shots (made less) than Shaq did in the 2000-2001 playoffs. I'm not saying he deserved finals MVP over Shaq, I just think using a wide brush and referring to him as the generic second banana, for 2001 especially, doesn't really paint the most accurate description of his contribution. Those don't look like the stats of a second banana in comparison with the top dog, they look more like 1B to Shaqs 1A, IMO.

JordansBulls
03-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Only biased non-Laker fans would question his leadership. He's proven he can lead a team to a title and has been to 6 NBA finals over his hall of fame career. Bottom-line: he's a winner and an NBA champion, something you can't take away from him. The fact that you continue to bash him shows how immature some of you sports fans are. Give him his credit.

:clap:

Lakersfan2483
03-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Fixed and it's not an issue that I'm going to waste time arguing.

Don't care if you do as I am looking forward to another title run and Kobe looking for his 5th ring.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 08:07 PM
Just wanted to remind you that we should not be attacking each other in this thread. Just talk about the topic on hand. Plain and simple.

tredigs
03-18-2010, 08:16 PM
Kobe's a legitimate superstar of the game, closest thing to Mike the league might ever have, but to me Kobe is a ways away from guys like Bird, Magic, etc. I'd say that if he maintains his status as a top 3 player in the league for the next few years, while winning two or more titles, then some people could make the argument, but it would still be a stretch to me. Larry was simply a better player than Kobe, and was a true legend of the game who helped revive the entire sport from obscurity. The guy was a multiple finals MVP, had 3 regular season MVP's, and averaged 25pts 10rebs 6ast throughout his career. And the acccolades/numbers of players like Kareem and Wilt are obviously not comparable.

I think that Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell and the GOAT all accomplished far too much in their careers, and were too important to the NBA as a whole for Kobe to have a legitimate chance to catch up to their legacies. Not to mention that he can't touch any of their numbers. BUT, if he were to get one more ring as the top dog (and possibly even if he doesn't, but it hurts his case with the talent around him), then an arguable top ten with guys like Jerry West, Oscar Robinson, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem etc would be appropriate.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 08:24 PM
Kobe's a legitimate superstar of the game, closest thing to Mike the league might ever have, but to me Kobe is a ways away from guys like Bird, Magic, etc. I'd say that if he maintains his status as a top 3 player in the league for the next few years, while winning two or more titles, then some people could make the argument, but it would still be a stretch to me. Larry was simply a better player than Kobe, and was a true legend of the game who helped revive the entire sport from obscurity. The guy was a multiple finals MVP, had 3 regular season MVP's, and averaged 25pts 10rebs 6ast throughout his career. And the acccolades/numbers of players like Kareem and Wilt are obviously not comparable.

Yes, and Kobe could possibly have "multiple Finals MVPs" by season's end as well. But do you know how many of Bird's 3 titles were him becoming MVP?

It was two, 1984 vs Lakers and 1986 vs Rockets. What many seem to forget was that it wasn't Larry Bird who shined in his first championship in 1981 vs Houston, it was '81 Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

And to say that Kobe can't touch any of those guys' numbers is sorta ridiculous. Kobe Bryant will forever be known as the greatest ascender in NBA history, going from rookie minutes, to bench minutes, to starter minutes, to 2nd option, to 1st option. IMO, he will forever be known as the greatest 2nd option on a championship team in NBA history, and the greatest player in NBA history to make that transition from a successful 2nd option young superstar winning multiple NBA Championships to a successful 1st option veteran superstar winning multiple NBA Championships.

Lakersfan2483
03-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Calling him 2nd banana doesn't really give a fair description of his contribution to those teams, especially the 2001 team-IMO.

Bryant 2000-2001- 29.4ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 47%FG, 82% FT, over 16 games. Playoff leader in win shares (3.8), PER- 25.

Shaq 2000-2001- 30.7ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55%FG, 52% FT, 16 games. Win share 3.7, PER- 28.7.

Has a second banana ever put up those kind of numbers for a championship team? A lot of top dogs on championship teams in the past haven't put up numbers like that. He took more shots (made less) than Shaq did in the 2000-2001 playoffs. I'm not saying he deserved finals MVP over Shaq, I just think using a wide brush and referring to him as the generic second banana, for 2001 especially, doesn't really paint the most accurate description of his contribution. Those don't look like the stats of a second banana in comparison with the top dog, they look more like 1B to Shaqs 1A, IMO.

:clap:

Lakersfan2483
03-18-2010, 08:32 PM
Yes, and Kobe could possibly have "multiple Finals MVPs" by season's end as well. But do you know how many of Bird's 3 titles were him becoming MVP?

It was two, 1984 vs Lakers and 1986 vs Rockets. What many seem to forget was that it wasn't Larry Bird who shined in his first championship in 1981 vs Houston, it was '81 Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

And to say that Kobe can't touch any of those guys' numbers is sorta ridiculous. Kobe Bryant will forever be known as the greatest ascender in NBA history, going from rookie minutes, to bench minutes, to starter minutes, to 2nd option, to 1st option. IMO, he will forever be known as the greatest 2nd option on a championship team in NBA history, and the greatest player in NBA history to make that transition from a successful 2nd option young superstar winning multiple NBA Championships to a successful 1st option veteran superstar winning multiple NBA Championships.

Also, think about all of the Laker greats like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Baylor, West, Worthy, and Mikan and Kobe has surpassed them all in terms of all time Lakers scoring. He owns several records and is at the top in terms of playoff scoring, assists, steals, etc.... His resume is great.

tredigs
03-18-2010, 08:35 PM
Yes, and Kobe could possibly have "multiple Finals MVPs" by season's end as well. But do you know how many of Bird's 3 titles were him becoming MVP?

It was two, 1984 vs Lakers and 1986 vs Rockets. What many seem to forget was that it wasn't Larry Bird who shined in his first championship in 1981 vs Houston, it was '81 Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

And to say that Kobe can't touch any of those guys' numbers is sorta ridiculous. Kobe Bryant will forever be known as the greatest ascender in NBA history, going from rookie minutes, to bench minutes, to starter minutes, to 2nd option, to 1st option. IMO, he will forever be known as the greatest 2nd option on a championship team in NBA history, and the greatest player in NBA history to make that transition from a successful 2nd option young superstar winning multiple NBA Championships to a successful 1st option veteran superstar winning multiple NBA Championships.

We'll have to see about that last part. And the "greatest ascender" piece is all well and good, and very impressive, but it doesn't add to his legacy that he wasn't an instant superstar like all the other names on the list. And you just can't argue with the fact that his numbers, while great, pale in comparison to anybody you're trying to compare him to right now. Throw in league impact, importance to the game as a whole, etc, and I personally just don't see it.

But hey, his career isn't over, so it'll be fun to see how it all plays out.

jmtapia
03-18-2010, 08:37 PM
So your opinion is that Kobe may not be definitively top 10 at the present moment. I may not agree with your opinion on that, but I do respect it.

out of curiosity whats your Top 10??

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 08:40 PM
Calling him 2nd banana doesn't really give a fair description of his contribution to those teams, especially the 2001 team-IMO.

Bryant 2000-2001- 29.4ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 47%FG, 82% FT, over 16 games. Playoff leader in win shares (3.8), PER- 25.

Shaq 2000-2001- 30.7ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55%FG, 52% FT, 16 games. Win share 3.7, PER- 28.7.

Has a second banana ever put up those kind of numbers for a championship team? A lot of top dogs on championship teams in the past haven't put up numbers like that. He took more shots (made less) than Shaq did in the 2000-2001 playoffs. I'm not saying he deserved finals MVP over Shaq, I just think using a wide brush and referring to him as the generic second banana, for 2001 especially, doesn't really paint the most accurate description of his contribution. Those don't look like the stats of a second banana in comparison with the top dog, they look more like 1B to Shaqs 1A, IMO.


second banana is a harsh term, but there isn't a Laker fan out there that can put forth a rational argument that Shaq wasn't the most important player on those teams.
Now, is he the best second banana of all time? Off the top of my head, probably. I don't mean that in a bad way dude, just saying, he was NOT lead dog in those first 3 rings. And any attempt to convince me otherwise is ridiculous. It comes down to this. Who was easier to replace. Shaq or Kobe. There were a number of SG's who were very good. But Shaq was the best player in the NBA over that span, period.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 08:41 PM
Also, think about all of the Laker greats like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Baylor, West, Worthy, and Mikan and Kobe has surpassed them all in terms of all time Lakers scoring. He owns several records and is at the top in terms of playoff scoring, assists, steals, etc.... His resume is great.

But I think that if the Kobe Bryant-led Los Angeles Lakers repeat in this era, it will be even more impressive. Think about the competition of today as opposed to the 80s and 90s.

80s-main contenders were Sixers, Celtics, Pistons, Lakers, Rockets, Blazers

90s-main contenders were Bulls, Pistons, Knicks, Pacers, Rockets, Jazz, Blazers

early-mid 2000s-Lakers, Blazers, Spurs, Kings, Mavs, Pistons, Nets

Mid 2000s to now (the Kobe Bryant led Lakers era)-Lakers, Cavs, Celtics, Magic, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, Mavs, Heat, Pistons, Jazz

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 08:43 PM
But I think that if the Kobe Bryant-led Los Angeles Lakers repeat in this era, it will be even more impressive. Think about the competition of today as opposed to the 80s and 90s.

80s-main contenders were Sixers, Celtics, Pistons, Lakers, Rockets, Blazers

90s-main contenders were Bulls, Pistons, Knicks, Pacers, Rockets, Jazz, Blazers

early-mid 2000s-Lakers, Blazers, Spurs, Kings, Mavs, Pistons, Nets

Mid 2000s to now (the Kobe Bryant led Lakers era)-Lakers, Cavs, Celtics, Magic, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, Mavs, Heat, Pistons, Jazz

really???? The competition among the elite teams back then was far better. My opinion of course

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 08:44 PM
out of curiosity whats your Top 10??

1. Michael
2. Magic
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Oscar
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Timmy
-----
11. West
12. Hakeem

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 08:45 PM
really???? The competition among the elite teams back then was far better. My opinion of course

Well, i'm still in my early 20's, so if you've watched majority of basketball in the 80s and 90s, then I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

JordansBulls
03-18-2010, 08:46 PM
1. Michael
2. Magic
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Oscar
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Timmy
-----
11. West
12. Hakeem

Kareem is too low man. Kareem is a top 3 player. Also Oscar is too high, he shouldn't be ahead of Shaq or Duncan or Hakeem or even Kobe IMO.

Oscar never won a title as the best player on his team and never had more than 1 season of 50+ wins as the Man on a team.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 08:56 PM
Well, i'm still in my early 20's, so if you've watched majority of basketball in the 80s and 90s, then I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

well, expansion in 1989 hurt, and in reality, the elite teams in the 80's and early 90's were superior to today's teams.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 08:58 PM
1. Michael
2. Magic
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Oscar
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Timmy
-----
11. West
12. Hakeem

that is a great list man. I think Bird is #3, and Kareem #4, Russell #5, but I would really have to research to fight it. Nice

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 08:59 PM
Kareem is too low man. Kareem is a top 3 player. Also Oscar is too high, he shouldn't be ahead of Shaq or Duncan or Hakeem or even Kobe IMO.

Oscar never won a title as the best player on his team and never had more than 1 season of 50+ wins as the Man on a team.

Oscar was also surrounded by crap until late in his career if I remember. Individually, he was incredible. But I see your point.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Kareem is too low man. Kareem is a top 3 player. Also Oscar is too high, he shouldn't be ahead of Shaq or Duncan or Hakeem or even Kobe IMO.

Oscar never won a title as the best player on his team and never had more than 1 season of 50+ wins as the Man on a team.

Well, in my mind, that's exactly what I felt about guys like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan etc. surpassing Oscar, but I've realized that too many people respect Oscar that they can't seem to see any of those guys ahead of him. And I agree, Kareem is a top 3 players, but I was afraid if I put 2 Lakers above Celtics like Bird and Russell, I'd sound like a homer. So I was a bit hesitant with this list. But no doubt in my mind that 3 active players in Shaq, Kobe and Duncan are all part of the top 10.

tredigs
03-18-2010, 09:11 PM
1. Michael
2. Magic
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Kareem
6. Wilt
7. Oscar
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Timmy
-----
11. West
12. Hakeem

Tough to make an argument for Kobe ahead of Duncan at this point. Duncan has more MVP's (2 to 1), more finals MVP's (3 to 1), more all-NBA first teams (9 to 7), more defensive all-NBA first teams (8 to 7), and has been in the league one less year than Kobe. His numbers are more impressive than Kobe's to me (as far as comparable one's, his PER is 25.0 to Kobe's 23.6). He's also the best to ever play his position.

Big Timmy's a quiet force, but in my opinion a bigger one than Kobe.

ChiSox219
03-18-2010, 09:13 PM
I'd take Hakeem and TD over Kobe

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 09:17 PM
Tough to make an argument for Kobe ahead of Duncan at this point. Duncan has more MVP's (2 to 1), more finals MVP's (3 to 1), more all-NBA first teams (9 to 7), more defensive all-NBA first teams (8 to 7), and has been in the league one less year than Kobe. His numbers are more impressive than Kobe's to me (as far as comparable one's, his PER is 25.0 to Kobe's 23.6). He's also the best to ever play his position.

Big Timmy's a quiet force, but in my opinion a bigger one than Kobe.

Ok, respect your opinion.

But if Kobe can potentially become the 8th franchise player in NBA history to lead a team to consecutive championships, IMO, his status should skyrocket. I think that's something interesting to thing about. The 8th guy to lead a team to a repeat after Mikan, Russell, Johnson, Thomas, Jordan, Olajuwon and O'Neal. When you add the last name "Bryant" to that list, that's speaking volumes IMO.

ragee
03-18-2010, 09:23 PM
So your opinion is that Kobe may not be definitively top 10 at the present moment. I may not agree with your opinion on that, but I do respect it.

Who are in the top ten anyway?

tredigs
03-18-2010, 09:24 PM
My list:

1: Jordan

2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Chamberlain
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Big O

11. Jerry West
12. Moses Malone - Kobe

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 09:38 PM
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Oscar
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

off the top of my head anyways

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 09:53 PM
Ok, now many of us have given our current top 10's and what not, but now, consider Kobe leading the Lakers to a repeat. Only the 8th franchise leader in NBA history to potentially do so. Now where will he rank?

I would probably put him 7th behind MJ/Bird/Kareem/Magic/Wilt/Russell (those 6 guys in no order). There's something special in 3-peating as the 2nd option, and then repeating as THE GUY, and potentially winning more as THE GUY since the window of opportunity for these Lakers is the next 3-4 yrs.

tredigs
03-18-2010, 10:24 PM
Ok, now many of us have given our current top 10's and what not, but now, consider Kobe leading the Lakers to a repeat. Only the 8th franchise leader in NBA history to potentially do so. Now where will he rank?

I would probably put him 7th behind MJ/Bird/Kareem/Magic/Wilt/Russell (those 6 guys in no order). There's something special in 3-peating as the 2nd option, and then repeating as THE GUY, and potentially winning more as THE GUY since the window of opportunity for these Lakers is the next 3-4 yrs.

If he had a great playoffs, i.e. they won the title and he was the finals MVP, then yeah, you can start arguing that he'd fall in around that 7-10 notch with Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan.

JordansBulls
03-18-2010, 10:24 PM
For Overall Career

This is what Basketball reference does.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


I only calculated the first 6 guys though. But I'm sure Kobe moves up on the list as his MVP shares increases as well as his PPG, RPG, APG and if he won the title.

1. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Larry Bird* 1.0000
6. Magic Johnson* 1.0000
7. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
8. Tim Duncan 1.0000
9. Karl Malone 1.0000
10. Kobe Bryant 1.00


MJ's
height -0.20518 78 -16.00404
last season indicator 4.21609 0 0
NBA points per game 0.45098 30.1 13.574498
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523 6.2 2.326426
NBA assists per game 0.39329 5.3 2.084437
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684 14 6.81576
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416 8.138 25.91269408
NBA championships won 1.03335 6 6.2001

40.90987508

Kareem
height -0.20518 86 -17.64548
last season indicator 4.21609 0 0
NBA points per game 0.45098 24.6 11.094108
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523 11.2 4.202576
NBA assists per game 0.39329 3.6 1.415844
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684 19 9.24996
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416 6.203 19.75134448
NBA championships won 1.03335 6 6.2001

34.26845248

Bill Russell
height -0.20518 81 -16.61958
last season indicator 4.21609 0 0
NBA points per game 0.45098 15.1 6.809798
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523 22.5 8.442675
NBA assists per game 0.39329 4.3 1.691147
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684 12 5.84208
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416 4.827 15.36994032
NBA championships won 1.03335 11 11.36685

32.90291032

Wilt Chamberlain
height -0.20518 85 -17.4403
last season indicator 4.21609 0 0
NBA points per game 0.45098 30.1 13.574498
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523 22.9 8.592767
NBA assists per game 0.39329 4.4 1.730476
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684 13 6.32892
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416 4.269 13.59317904
NBA championships won 1.03335 2 2.0667

28.44624004

Larry Bird
height -0.20518 81 -16.61958
last season indicator 4.21609 0 0
NBA points per game 0.45098 24.3 10.958814
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523 10.0 3.7523
NBA assists per game 0.39329 6.3 2.477727
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684 12 5.84208
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416 5.693 18.12742288
NBA championships won 1.03335 3 3.10005

27.63881388

Magic Johnson
height -0.20518 80 -16.4144
last season indicator 4.21609 0 0
NBA points per game 0.45098 19.5 8.79411
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523 7.2 2.701656
NBA assists per game 0.39329 11.2 4.404848
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684 12 5.84208
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416 5.129 16.33155664
NBA championships won 1.03335 5 5.16675

26.82660064

Whether you agree with the order or not, I think it is a good formula as it does have the guys who are generally considered the top 6 in the list.

ko8e24
03-18-2010, 10:32 PM
9 of those 10 guys are currently on my list. I'd prolly put the Mailman at #16 behind #11 Hakeem, #12 West, #13 Moses, #14 Elgin Baylor, #15 Dr. J.

I'd put the Big O to take the Mailman's place.