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Gibby23
03-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Artest, Bryant lauded

Their peers have spoken.

Ron Artest and Kobe Bryant were named the toughest defenders in the NBA in a poll of 173 players conducted by Sports Illustrated. Artest earned 42 percent of the votes and Bryant received 13 percent in results announced Tuesday.

Dwight Howard of the Magic was third with 12 percent of the votes, Kevin Garnett of the Celtics was fourth with 6 percent and Shane Battier of the Rockets was fifth with 4 percent.

The results are included in the latest issue, which hits newsstands and mailboxes today. The poll was conducted several months ago.

http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_14689505

Giaps
03-17-2010, 12:41 PM
Not surprised... Artest is the toughest guy in the league hands down as is Kobe #2.

GodsSon
03-17-2010, 12:51 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

Frezhnitz
03-17-2010, 12:52 PM
I would agree

NYtilIdie
03-17-2010, 01:00 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

x2

Gibby23
03-17-2010, 01:02 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

Too bad the defensive numbers don't back that claim.

ko8e24
03-17-2010, 01:02 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

It's what their fellow peers said. Live with it.

blackjack_119
03-17-2010, 01:02 PM
While Battier is clearly a better defender than Artest or Bryant, I can see why players would vote for the other two. Artest plays a much more physical defense than Battier. You would prefer to have a hand in your face than constantly bumped and shoved on the defensive end. I think Bryant ranks so high because he is a good defender but additionally flusters his opponent because of what he does to them on the other end of the floor.

ko8e24
03-17-2010, 01:03 PM
While Battier is clearly a better defender than Artest or Bryant, I can see why players would vote for the other two. Artest plays a much more physical defense than Battier. You would prefer to have a hand in your face than constantly bumped and shoved on the defensive end. I think Bryant ranks so high because he is a good defender but additionally flusters his opponent because of what he does to them on the other end of the floor.

This

Raph12
03-17-2010, 01:03 PM
I think they asked more perimeter players, doubt guys like Bogut would say Artest/Kobe.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-17-2010, 01:05 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

I'll take 173 players opinions over yours

sorry no offence:)

Gibby23
03-17-2010, 01:07 PM
I think they asked more perimeter players, doubt guys like Bogut would say Artest/Kobe.

True. There are more perimeter players in the NBA, so it could be one sided.

Tony_Starks
03-17-2010, 01:13 PM
I agree with the players.

td0tsfinest
03-17-2010, 01:20 PM
I still think Battier is a better defender but the Lakers D has gotten better with Artest in the lineup.

Raph12
03-17-2010, 01:54 PM
True. There are more perimeter players in the NBA, so it could be one sided.

Yeah the big guys probably said Dwight and the wings said Kobe/Artest... PGs would probably say Rondo/Westbrook.

Purple&Gold24
03-17-2010, 02:05 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

:rimshot:

ko8e24
03-17-2010, 02:33 PM
Hey, how come LeBron wasn't picked :hide:

lol jk :D


(segway into another Kobe vs LeBron thread ;))

G-Funk
03-17-2010, 03:01 PM
I'll believe 173 basketball profesional then some idiot on PSD.

Chronz
03-17-2010, 06:35 PM
Too bad the defensive numbers don't back that claim.

Show us the defensive #'s

Chronz
03-17-2010, 06:40 PM
Players are too stupid to accurately assess this

Bashna
03-17-2010, 06:41 PM
I hardly see kobe play D anymore except in the 4th quarter...

RadiantShot
03-17-2010, 06:43 PM
Toughest defenders, yeah.
Best? No.

ChiBulls91
03-17-2010, 07:18 PM
Players are too stupid to accurately assess this

Chronz you're freaking kidding me. They play against these guys every night. I think they know this subject a tad better than your.

madiaz3
03-17-2010, 07:23 PM
Players are too stupid to accurately assess this

To assess toughness? They're pretty qualified. I think you're trying to argue a different aspect.

dwadefan03
03-17-2010, 07:41 PM
they only say trhat because theyre the most PHYSICAL not the BEST

kArSoN RyDaH
03-17-2010, 07:44 PM
idk how people could say this isnt true when the players themselves are voting for them. they obviously know who plays the toughest defense since they themselves are going up against them.

DCB/LAL
03-17-2010, 08:11 PM
I love when a guy who watches thinks he knows more than the guy who actually does what the guy is watching..... :facepalm:

showtym24
03-17-2010, 08:12 PM
)QUOTE=GodsSon;12629320]And yet Battier is better than both...makessense[/QUOTE]

Yea because you know more than 173 nba players :facepalm:

showtym24
03-17-2010, 08:14 PM
I'll believe 173 basketball profesional then some idiot on PSD.

x2

GspLAL
03-17-2010, 08:16 PM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

Kobe can't go into lockdown mode every single possession because he has to carry the load on offense where as Battier can just use his energy for defense.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-17-2010, 08:30 PM
I love when a guy who watches thinks he knows more than the guy who actually does what the guy is watching..... :facepalm:

x2.

Chronz
03-17-2010, 09:27 PM
Chronz you're freaking kidding me. They play against these guys every night. I think they know this subject a tad better than your.
They play maybe 2-4 games against each player, the media gets to watch these guys play every game and they have the tools to accurately dissect a players contributions.

Chronz
03-17-2010, 09:28 PM
To assess toughness? They're pretty qualified. I think you're trying to argue a different aspect.

If thats the case then who the **** cares, Battier isnt "tough" but hes a better defender than Artest. Where did Thabo and Iggy rank by this toughness criteria?

Chronz
03-17-2010, 09:29 PM
I love when a guy who watches thinks he knows more than the guy who actually does what the guy is watching..... :facepalm:
I love when posters take everything players say at face value

dodie53
03-17-2010, 09:44 PM
the lakers should trade for D. Howard
:)

RaptorizedKevin
03-17-2010, 09:50 PM
Too bad the defensive numbers don't back that claim.

Lmfao. tehres alot of very good defenders without the stats. its called OPPONANT FILED GOAL. FORCED TO. PRESSURE DEFENSE. AND ONES ABIILITY TO MAKE THE OOPONANT PASS UP THE BALL CUSS OF TH D. yu cant see true d up on stats. yu havta witness it too.

RaptorizedKevin
03-17-2010, 09:50 PM
the lakers should trade for D. Howard
:)

yes, the magic are just gonna trade their francaise player when hes the best center in the league for what? another centre like bynum and a good yung player? nto a chance.

ko8e24
03-17-2010, 10:01 PM
I love when posters take everything players say at face value

Maybe because they have actual experience in "playing the game".

JIMMY CONWAY
03-17-2010, 10:16 PM
And this further concludes why Bryant is and always will be a better all around basketball player than Lebron.

DodgerBulls
03-17-2010, 10:32 PM
I'd say Artest, Battier, Bryant.

Artest just ridiculously will give it to you. Plays tough and really makes the opponent work for their basket.
Battier is great when he focus on one opponent.
Bryant is great too, but I think his reputation as a defender gets to the heads of the other players.

TmacBryant
03-18-2010, 01:38 AM
I think 1 thing no one is considering is that Battier focuses on defense, the only time he scores is when he takes wide open threes ( that he misses).

Kobe is one of the best offenses in the game and still plays amazing defense, if he concentrated only on defense he would be considered as good as battier.

I would say Artest definitely deserves to be up there since he was controlling the ball on offense and defending like a beast when he was on teams like sac town or houston. As long as he is healthy... his defense is incredible.

GodsSon
03-18-2010, 01:50 AM
If thats the case then who the **** cares, Battier isnt "tough" but hes a better defender than Artest. Where did Thabo and Iggy rank by this toughness criteria?

Agreement between me and Chronz...lol a rarity

jackdawson
03-18-2010, 02:06 AM
Hey, how come LeBron wasn't picked :hide:

lol jk :D


(segway into another Kobe vs LeBron thread ;)):facepalm:

There you go!! Way to waste another thread !!! You are one of the leaders of ****ing Kobe-Lebron stupid debates that pop up everytime I login.

FOBolous
03-18-2010, 02:13 AM
idk how people could say this isnt true when the players themselves are voting for them. they obviously know who plays the toughest defense since they themselves are going up against them.

because a lot of players become very bad coaches or GMs after they retire

Chronz
03-18-2010, 02:15 AM
Maybe because they have actual experience in "playing the game".

Which is why they make for such great analyst, GM's, coaches and scouts and non basketball players make horrible GM's/Coaches ........ err wait

Playing the game isnt the same as studying the game, I KNOW that I know more about basketball than most NBA players, I just wasnt blessed with the genetics to make it to the pros.

FOBolous
03-18-2010, 02:16 AM
Maybe because they have actual experience in "playing the game".

is that why players tend to be bad coaches or GMs?

Zefflin
03-18-2010, 02:16 AM
I love that Kobe has a offensive and defensive nickname. Who else has that?

jackdawson
03-18-2010, 02:43 AM
I have always felt that Artest and Kobe bryant are pretty tough as defenders and it's nice to that the players also think the same, but let's hope that most of us are mature enough to understand "toughest" defenders are not necessarily the "best" defenders, some people dont seem to understand that but it's OK i guess because you can never be 100%. More like the old saying "An apple tree always has some bad apples along with it's good apples." So let's just discount them.

Thabo Sefolosa is probably the most underrared defender in the league.

JJ_JKidd
03-18-2010, 02:55 AM
"Poll was conducted several months ago..." So why did it surface just now?? This is C-R-A-P!

CowboysKB24
03-18-2010, 03:03 AM
Remember playing basketball when you were younger.... there was always that guy you hated guarding you because he was just annoying and physical... that is Ron Artest in the NBA.

Can anyone relate?

Kevj77
03-18-2010, 03:51 AM
because a lot of players become very bad coaches or GMs after they retireThe role players usually become the better coaches. Nelly, Phil, Scott, Rivers, Riley and other coaches were all roll players in the NBA. It is the Jordan, Magic, Thomas types that can't become good coaches/GM. The only exception is Jerry West. They expect players to be able to play on their level or have the same commitment.

I'd take actual players opinions over anyone on PSD about something like this, although I believe that best defender and toughest leaves room to debate. To discount people that actually play against these people is silly. PSD has so many bias opinions based on team loyalties and its full of opinions.

G-Funk
03-18-2010, 10:13 AM
which is why they make for such great analyst, gm's, coaches and scouts and non basketball players make horrible gm's/coaches ........ Err wait

playing the game isnt the same as studying the game, i know that i know more about basketball than most nba players, i just wasnt blessed with the genetics to make it to the pros.

lmao

Law25
03-18-2010, 10:23 AM
Which is why they make for such great analyst, GM's, coaches and scouts and non basketball players make horrible GM's/Coaches ........ err wait

Playing the game isnt the same as studying the game, I KNOW that I know more about basketball than most NBA players, I just wasnt blessed with the genetics to make it to the pros.

So your an coach then. If so, Respect. On your statement in bold letters. You make it soud like you believe players are these bonehead athletes. If so your so off base. As great and smart Battier is Kobe still lights him up, why is that? I believe alot of them know great defence but the speed of the game is just to fast to calculate every move and stop it. As far of players becoming good coach hasnt the majority of coaches in the league now played at some point. Phil jackson, Larry brown, Pat Riley, Byron Scott, Pop, just a couple i know. Im sure thers more.

Law25
03-18-2010, 10:26 AM
Sorry for bad spelling and word placement. Long night and day.:)

avrpatsfan
03-18-2010, 10:28 AM
I don't know about Kobe but Artest was DPOY one year.

Stay_Swim
03-18-2010, 10:30 AM
Which is why they make for such great analyst, GM's, coaches and scouts and non basketball players make horrible GM's/Coaches ........ err wait

Playing the game isnt the same as studying the game, I KNOW that I know more about basketball than most NBA players, I just wasnt blessed with the genetics to make it to the pros.


Well thats a little broad. Who are you talking about?

DCB/LAL
03-18-2010, 11:15 AM
I love when posters take everything players say at face value

Im sorry have you played in the NBA? Have you been guarded by guys such as Kobe,Lebron, Artest, etc... have you? No you haven't have you? But yet you think your word has more weight on it than the guys who have been right? No offense but Id rather believe the guys who do this for a living than a poster on PSD who has never played against these guys at this level but maybe thats just me. :shrug:

DCB/LAL
03-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Which is why they make for such great analyst, GM's, coaches and scouts and non basketball players make horrible GM's/Coaches ........ err wait

Playing the game isnt the same as studying the game, I KNOW that I know more about basketball than most NBA players, I just wasnt blessed with the genetics to make it to the pros.

Playing the game has more weight behind it than the people who study it.

MJ probably wasn't the smartest Basketball player to ever play he probably wasn't as smart as many of the analyst who "studied" the game but MJ is the GOAT and not because he "studied" it but because he played it. You can study the game all you want and you may know your S**t but the opinions of players who play it have more weight than the people who "study" it and the people who watch it.

Chronz
03-18-2010, 11:46 AM
So your an coach then. If so, Respect. On your statement in bold letters. You make it soud like you believe players are these bonehead athletes. If so your so off base. As great and smart Battier is Kobe still lights him up, why is that? I believe alot of them know great defence but the speed of the game is just to fast to calculate every move and stop it. As far of players becoming good coach hasnt the majority of coaches in the league now played at some point. Phil jackson, Larry brown, Pat Riley, Byron Scott, Pop, just a couple i know. Im sure thers more.
There are plenty of idiots in the league is all Im saying. Im not sure what your point is about Kobe lighting up Battier, he lit up Artest and others MUCH worse, in fact Battier was finally given credit for his defense in a game in which he absolutely clamped down Kobe. Battier is one of the greatest intellectual players in the game, he will look at statistical scouting reports and gameplan beforehand. Artest isnt like that, he wont even spend the time. He used to be able to rely on his physical gifts but as theyve eroded so too has his defensive impact. Battier has been a defensive beast for the better part of a decade and its because of his mental approach to the game.

My point wasnt that players never make for great coaches, scouts, GM's but that its entirely possible that a NON-baller makes for a better one.

JVG gets hated on because hes eccentric and makes unpopular claims but you wont find a better defensive coach, all 5"9 of him. Id take his defensive opinion over ANY of these 175 players.

I get that they compete against these guys, so answering whos "tougher" is up to them, but there is a difference between being a tougher defender and being a better defender, Ill take the better defender any day.

Chronz
03-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Playing the game has more weight behind it than the people who study it.
Nope


MJ probably wasn't the smartest Basketball player to ever play he probably wasn't as smart as many of the analyst who "studied" the game but MJ is the GOAT and not because he "studied" it but because he played it.
Which is why when he was given control of actually ANALYZING the game he failed miserably. Dont you ever wonder why some of the best coaches in the history of the game, WERENT stars? And MJ was a smart player, so if he fails it says alot.

MJ is the GOAT because of HIS abilities, not because of his ANALYTICAL abilities.


You can study the game all you want and you may know your S**t but the opinions of players who play it have more weight than the people who "study" it and the people who watch it.

Prove it


Im sorry have you played in the NBA? Have you been guarded by guys such as Kobe,Lebron, Artest, etc... have you? No you haven't have you? But yet you think your word has more weight on it than the guys who have been right? No offense but Id rather believe the guys who do this for a living than a poster on PSD who has never played against these guys at this level but maybe thats just me. :shrug:

No offense taken, have fun having limited knowledge on the matter

Chronz
03-18-2010, 11:53 AM
Well thats a little broad. Who are you talking about?
Its not just the players, some NBA coaches are morons. You know I once heard Dunleavy talk about Tim Thomas being an efficient player because he makes 3's, that when you factor in his 3pt efficiency that his FG% rises to 50%, justifying his shot selection by saying who wouldnt want their player to shoot 50%. Apparently unaware that when you do this for one player, you have to do it across the league. And when you do, that 50% isnt as efficient as you thought, the league average raises when you adjust for 3pters on a whole. He was on to something (that TT was more efficient than his FG% suggested, but he was either lying to the media or himself) Either way it says something about him.

Like could you name the most intellectual players in the league, I bet most of them arent even stars.

G-Funk
03-18-2010, 12:47 PM
^ Your single opinion still doesn't overweight 173 players opinions!


Maybe SI and Espn should stop doing polls and ask Chronz

Chronz
03-18-2010, 05:07 PM
^ Your single opinion still doesn't overweight 173 players opinions!


Maybe SI and Espn should stop doing polls and ask Chronz

I really dont care bro, my only point was that what players think isnt gospel and if your the kind of person who thinks his opinion doesnt compare with theirs just because they play the game, then what you think is irrelevant. Think more of yourself, the game of basketball isnt that hard to figure out, do you think you know less about the NBA than say.... Stromile Swift? What about Amare? Have you ever heard Moses Malone talk about the game?

Id rather them create a panel of the games most studious observers from every aspect of analysis (scouts/statisticians/Defensive Coaches). That would be a dream. Honestly players are the least qualified for the job. If you knew more about the NBA youd know that

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 05:28 PM
and players make great GM's and coaches everytime too, right? Just cause you know how to play it doesn't make you much of an evaluator in many cases. there is absolutely no way that Kobe and Artest are the two best on the ball defenders in the NBA

kArSoN RyDaH
03-18-2010, 06:02 PM
^^^ apparently you didnt read the post. it says "toughest defenders" not "best" defenders. and i dont care what any of you say ill take players opinions over yours anyday..

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 06:06 PM
^^^ apparently you didnt read the post. it says "toughest defenders" not "best" defenders. and i dont care what any of you say ill take players opinions over yours anyday..

go for it. You can take an infants opinion over mine, I dont really care.

amos1er
03-18-2010, 06:15 PM
They play maybe 2-4 games against each player, the media gets to watch these guys play every game and they have the tools to accurately dissect a players contributions.

"The Media" answer to whoever writes their paychecks....those people answer to Nike, Gatorade and other big companies....so essentially, the media will vote for Lebron everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

When you poll players, coaches, and GM's you get a true NON BIAS point of view. Most of whom will tell you that Kobe is the best in the league and one of the top five defenders in the league. They will also tell you that Lebron is a far number two and a second rate defender.

These are the facts.....DEAL WITH IT HATER!!!

Sox72
03-18-2010, 06:17 PM
I'll believe 173 basketball profesional then some idiot on PSD.

Oh boy. I hope that one day you can see the irony in your post.

younggunn113
03-18-2010, 06:17 PM
and players make great GM's and coaches everytime too, right? Just cause you know how to play it doesn't make you much of an evaluator in many cases. there is absolutely no way that Kobe and Artest are the two best on the ball defenders in the NBA

No, but playing the game makes you a good evaluator when you're playing against the people youre evaluating. Anybody who plays basketball knows they can determine who the best player they played against is, or in this case, who was the person that defended them best. If it was a question about what college player would make the best pro, i'd agree with you that just because you play basketball you can't evaluate like that, but when its a question of talent involving people you constantly play against, their opinion is going to weigh more than ours. How many times have you gone head to head against battier or artest? My guess is 0. These players have, so its easy for them to choose, they're choosing off expirence, expirence that probably nobody on this forum has.

If a panel of NBA players say Artest and Kobe are the toughest defenders in the league, then I'll believe them and say they are as well.

GodsSon
03-18-2010, 06:18 PM
I never understood this about the younger generation...since when did having an opinion that differs from yours become hating? If i say Battier is a better defender than both (which he is), than I'm somehow a Kobe and Laker hater...interesting lol

kArSoN RyDaH
03-18-2010, 06:20 PM
No, but playing the game makes you a good evaluator when you're playing against the people youre evaluating. Anybody who plays basketball knows they can determine who the best player they played against is, or in this case, who was the person that defended them best. If it was a question about what college player would make the best pro, i'd agree with you that just because you play basketball you can't evaluate like that, but when its a question of talent involving people you constantly play against, their opinion is going to weigh more than ours. How many times have you gone head to head against battier or artest? My guess is 0. These players have, so its easy for them to choose, they're choosing off expirence, expirence that probably nobody on this forum has.

If a panel of NBA players say Artest and Kobe are the toughest defenders in the league, then I'll believe them and say they are as well.

this :clap:

amos1er
03-18-2010, 06:20 PM
I really dont care bro, my only point was that what players think isnt gospel and if your the kind of person who thinks his opinion doesnt compare with theirs just because they play the game, then what you think is irrelevant. Think more of yourself, the game of basketball isnt that hard to figure out, do you think you know less about the NBA than say.... Stromile Swift? What about Amare? Have you ever heard Moses Malone talk about the game?

Id rather them create a panel of the games most studious observers from every aspect of analysis (scouts/statisticians/Defensive Coaches). That would be a dream. Honestly players are the least qualified for the job. If you knew more about the NBA youd know that

Sound like your trying to rationalize your Kobe hate once again....every time there is some sort of poll that favors Kobe, you discredit it....every time there is a poll crediting Lebron or Wade, you embrace it...your Kobe hating bias makes you the least qualified to pass judgment.

amos1er
03-18-2010, 06:23 PM
I never understood this about the younger generation...since when did having an opinion that differs from yours become hating? If i say Battier is a better defender than both (which he is), than I'm somehow a Kobe and Laker hater...interesting lol

Battier is a great defender, but no where near Artest's level, you might be able to make an argument to say he is on par with Kobe, but you have to take into account that Kobe carries a much heavier offensive load than Battier....which put him behind Kobe IMO.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-18-2010, 06:38 PM
Sound like your trying to rationalize your Kobe hate once again....every time there is some sort of poll that favors Kobe, you discredit it....every time there is a poll crediting Lebron or Wade, you embrace it...your Kobe hating bias makes you the least qualified to pass judgment.

:clap:

Atticus Finch
03-18-2010, 07:12 PM
Id rather them create a panel of the games most studious observers from every aspect of analysis (scouts/statisticians/Defensive Coaches). That would be a dream. Honestly players are the least qualified for the job. If you knew more about the NBA youd know that

What makes your dream panel more qualified to assess someone's toughness? If you wanted to talk about gameplans, theory, or statistical analysis then you would have a valid argument, but toughness is intangible. You can't measure it with numbers, and there is no basis for comparison outside of actual experience. IF this poll was about who the best defender in the league was then yeah I could see people other than players being used. But since its about toughness, only players should be involved in the poll.

Da Knicks
03-18-2010, 07:38 PM
Bryant and Artest would be my choice too they can play hard d which on most other players fouls would be called on for but, they have also earned the calls. As far as too know what other player would qualify for the spot I think its kind of iffy because a team without a center suffers more than anything else just saying because of our present experience with my team. You need a bruiser inside and some bigs are not getting there credit.

tjlipford
03-18-2010, 08:02 PM
Nobody in here plays in the NBA so how could u question what the players think?

If they say Kobe and Artest are the toughest defenders then that's what it is. This is really not disputable by anyone but other NBA players

DCB/LAL
03-18-2010, 08:18 PM
and players make great GM's and coaches everytime too, right? Just cause you know how to play it doesn't make you much of an evaluator in many cases. there is absolutely no way that Kobe and Artest are the two best on the ball defenders in the NBA

Oh im sorry but......How many GM's are out there playing against the players they draft? Please answer that


Thats why playing and watching are 2 different things, its harder to evaluate a player when you just watch compared to when you play against them. You kinda prove our point here.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2010, 08:44 PM
Oh im sorry but......How many GM's are out there playing against the players they draft? Please answer that


Thats why playing and watching are 2 different things, its harder to evaluate a player when you just watch compared to when you play against them. You kinda prove our point here.

actually, its the opposite. Its far easier to evaluate a player by watching. What point are you proving?

DCB/LAL
03-18-2010, 09:05 PM
actually, its the opposite. Its far easier to evaluate a player by watching. What point are you proving?

That its easier to assess a player when you play against someone rather than when you watch someone. Many "Great" players dont make great GM's due to this people think that because they played the game and were great it means they'll be great GM's and thats not the case its easier to assess a player if you play against him rather than watching him.


I understand many posters on here like to pretend and talk like they know-it-all but please acting like you know more than the players who actually play against these guys is a bit absurd. This wasn't like they just asked for 1 guys opinion it was many opinions and for you(or any poster who has the same thoughts and opinions as you on this matter) to think you opinion has more weight on it than those of the players is just plain ridiculous.

Chronz
03-19-2010, 01:41 AM
"The Media" answer to whoever writes their paychecks....those people answer to Nike, Gatorade and other big companies....so essentially, the media will vote for Lebron everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. When you poll players, coaches, and GM's you get a true NON BIAS point of view. Most of whom will tell you that Kobe is the best in the league and one of the top five defenders in the league. They will also tell you that Lebron is a far number two and a second rate defender. These are the facts.....DEAL WITH IT HATER!!! tell me which media member is being paid by gatorade lol and why are they allowed to vote for actual tangible awards while your at it explain why battier has gone on record citing the media members as being better at judging defense than the coaches who obvious dont spend much time on their selections and look at flawed stats. im all for polling people from various aspects of the game but not everyone. like why would i care what an idiot coach thinks? lol at ur last response so where did i mention bron here?

Jahari Kavi
03-19-2010, 01:46 AM
And yet Battier is better than both...makes sense

lol, exactly....shane was even our best defender last year when ron was here....ron has trouble keeping up with quicker guys.......

Chronz
03-19-2010, 01:52 AM
Sound like your trying to rationalize your Kobe hate once again....every time there is some sort of poll that favors Kobe, you discredit it....every time there is a poll crediting Lebron or Wade, you embrace it...your Kobe hating bias makes you the least qualified to pass judgment.

Y does everyone always mention Bron? It really speaks to your insecurities. look ur wrong i would be saying the same thing regardless of who they voted for. ive even admitted the term tougher is totally up to them. just know its not anywhere near as important as being the BETTER defender.

Chronz
03-19-2010, 02:00 AM
What makes your dream panel more qualified to assess someone's toughness? If you wanted to talk about gameplans, theory, or statistical analysis then you would have a valid argument, but toughness is intangible. You can't measure it with numbers, and there is no basis for comparison outside of actual experience. IF this poll was about who the best defender in the league was then yeah I could see people other than players being used. But since its about toughness, only players should be involved in the poll.

yea someone mentioned that earlier and i conceded that fact. go back a few posts.

Chronz
03-19-2010, 02:07 AM
Oh im sorry but......How many GM's are out there playing against the players they draft? Please answer that


Thats why playing and watching are 2 different things, its harder to evaluate a player when you just watch compared to when you play against them. You kinda prove our point here.

put it this way. its their ability accurately assess players without having to compete against them that puts them ahead of the field. these players are limited to 2 or 4 games against a single opponent. those other analyst get to watch them and analyze their effectivness vs the rest of the league for as many games as they want.

GspLAL
03-19-2010, 04:17 AM
put it this way. its their ability accurately assess players without having to compete against them that puts them ahead of the field. these players are limited to 2 or 4 games against a single opponent. those other analyst get to watch them and analyze their effectivness vs the rest of the league for as many games as they want.

What makes you think players don't analyze other players? You don't think players watch tape of other players like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, or Dwight for example to try to improve their game?

sp1derm00
03-19-2010, 06:16 AM
Kobe is easily one of the toughest defenders in the NBA. I forgot which game it was in the NBA Finals last year, but Kobe somehow got switched off and had to defend/deny Dwight Howard. Guess how Kobe did.

You're talking about KOBE defending one of the strongest players in the league, he was completely relentless against Dwight.

Then, you look at this season's games against the Cavs and something I think the coaching staff missed, and for those who have the games still saved or tivo'd or still have access to the games, check out what Lebron did when Kobe defended him. He gave up the ball almost every time. Artest checks out, Kobe gets Bron, and Bron doesn't try to take advantage of Kobe. Flashbacks of last season when Kobe and Ariza tag teamed him probably popped into his head.

Then, you have the Olympics where Kobe pretty much put his defensive talents on showcase. He said he was out to lock down the other team's best players and he did it, no matter how big or fast they were, Kobe took up the challenge and delivered. This pretty much settles that Kobe, when he does go into "lockdown" mode, is one of the toughest defenders in the NBA.

I don't know why there's all the hate on Kobe's defensive talents, but I don't think the hate is justified.

sp1derm00
03-19-2010, 06:16 AM
Kobe is easily one of the toughest defenders in the NBA. I forgot which game it was in the NBA Finals last year, but Kobe somehow got switched off and had to defend/deny Dwight Howard. Guess how Kobe did.

You're talking about KOBE defending one of the strongest players in the league, he was completely relentless against Dwight.

Then, you look at this season's games against the Cavs and something I think the coaching staff missed, and for those who have the games still saved or tivo'd or still have access to the games, check out what Lebron did when Kobe defended him. He gave up the ball almost every time. Artest checks out, Kobe gets Bron, and Bron doesn't try to take advantage of Kobe. Flashbacks of last season when Kobe and Ariza tag teamed him probably popped into his head.

Then, you have the Olympics where Kobe pretty much put his defensive talents on showcase. He said he was out to lock down the other team's best players and he did it, no matter how big or fast they were, Kobe took up the challenge and delivered. This pretty much settles that Kobe, when he does go into "lockdown" mode, is one of the toughest defenders in the NBA.

I don't know why there's all the hate on Kobe's defensive talents, but I don't think the hate is justified.

Evolution23
03-19-2010, 06:24 AM
Love how they don't mention the players positions here. PG SG SF??? its not very scientific.

Draco
03-19-2010, 10:46 AM
What makes your dream panel more qualified to assess someone's toughness? If you wanted to talk about gameplans, theory, or statistical analysis then you would have a valid argument, but toughness is intangible. You can't measure it with numbers, and there is no basis for comparison outside of actual experience. IF this poll was about who the best defender in the league was then yeah I could see people other than players being used. But since its about toughness, only players should be involved in the poll.

lol

JNA17
03-19-2010, 10:49 AM
not a surprise.

Chronz
03-19-2010, 11:36 AM
What makes you think players don't analyze other players? You don't think players watch tape of other players like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, or Dwight for example to try to improve their game?
I never said they didnt, but given your rationale that its a different methodology entirely, one that on majority they arent very good at, they wouldnt know what to look at. If they did, good players would have a better track record at it. The best evaluators are non-stars and non-basketball players, why because they KNOW what to look at. Wade can go to Kobe and ask him how he plays defense and he can pick up a few things, thats something an observer cant provide insight on, but what they can do is analyze the effectiveness and change in a players game. Much more so than any player.

Chronz
03-19-2010, 11:37 AM
I don't know why there's all the hate on Kobe's defensive talents, but I don't think the hate is justified.

What hate?

majmarcus
03-19-2010, 12:08 PM
Too bad the defensive numbers don't back that claim.

:pity:No offense fam, but "Numbers" doesn't have crap to do with the toughness of a player. It's more style and technique!!!!!

Blackjack24
03-19-2010, 12:30 PM
Ehh.. I'm not surprised these two won, though in past years it could have been Bowen or someone of that ilk. Who's really left as a defensive specialist these days with the track record to match? Not too many, really.