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View Full Version : The correlation between Kobe's shot attempts and LA's wins



FOBolous
03-15-2010, 06:26 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings?year=2010&week=20


Some background for your next heated Lakers argument: They're 3-5 when Kobe takes 30 shots or more, 25-9 when he takes 20 to 29 shots and 20-4 when he takes fewer than 20, including the five games Kobe missed.





discuss :)

the terminator
03-15-2010, 06:30 PM
lebron > kobe
rose > rondo

/thread

G-Funk
03-15-2010, 06:31 PM
He's taking as many shots as he did last year, that should tell you that it's not Kobe, its something else.

ChiSox219
03-15-2010, 06:34 PM
During the last 2.5 years the Lakers are 154-43 for a .782 winning % when Kobe attempts less than 30 FGs in regulation. They are 5-13 for a .385 winning percentage when he shoots 30+.

:speechless:


For their careers, when attempting 30+ shots:

Kobe:
Regular season: 39-52 (.428)
Playoffs: 7-8 (.467)

Jordan:
Regular season: 72-57 (.558) [7-5 with Wizards / 65-52 with Bulls***data only back until 86-87]
Playoffs: 17-8 (.680) [***Data only back to 90-91]

Lebron:
Regular season: 13-9 (.590)
Playoffs: 0-2 (.000)

I have an old newspaper that has Jordan's entire game log so I'll try to find that sometime this week and update the numbers but my guess is they will not change much considering MJ averaged about 19 shots over that 90ish span of games. Playoffs, probably a big difference, likely close to .500



I posted this on 2/2/10 so the data may have slightly changed

ManRam
03-15-2010, 06:36 PM
He's taking as many shots as he did last year, that should tell you that it's not Kobe, its something else.

It's never Kobe is it? ;)

I don't think you can look to into it. But between these stats, and some murmuring from other players, it does lead me to believe that they are not a better team when he dominates the ball.

NPH
03-15-2010, 06:48 PM
Kobe only shoots around 30 when his teammates arent producing.. If his teammates are knocking down shots, then he doesnt have to take over the game.

WITZ
03-15-2010, 06:50 PM
If kobe can learn to be less of a ball hog then the lakers will be more successful.

shep33
03-15-2010, 06:56 PM
Kobe only shoots around 30 when his teammates arent producing.. If his teammates are knocking down shots, then he doesnt have to take over the game.

completely agree.

If any of you have been watching Laker games consistently this year, you'd realize that Pau, Drew, and even Lamar some nights don't show up offensively at all. There are games i.e. against the Nuggets and Cavs, where they get pushed around, make bad decisions, and Kobe is forced to put up a lot of shots in order to give them a chance to win. If people watch Laker games consistently you'd know what I'm talking about. I agree that Kobe can get shot happy, but trust me he is our most aggressive player on offense, and our bigs are basically invisiable when they get pushed around.

FOBolous
03-15-2010, 07:12 PM
Kobe only shoots around 30 when his teammates arent producing.. If his teammates are knocking down shots, then he doesnt have to take over the game.

have you ever wonder why his teammates seem to produce when he's not dominating the ball but can't when he is?

NPH
03-15-2010, 07:15 PM
have you ever wonder why his teammates seem to produce when he's not dominating the ball but can't when he is?

Actually alot of the times when they do produce, Kobe still "dominates" the ball. Its whether they knock down their shots or not.. :)

superkegger
03-15-2010, 07:17 PM
This is a groundbreaking thread. I mean, holy ****.

When one guy shoots a lot, the team doesn't do as well.

I'm flabbergasted.

I just can't believe it, at all.

Next thing you're going to tell me, the team that shoots a higher FG% gets more rebounds and assists wins more games.

Ground breaking man. Just ground breaking.

iluvsports2much
03-15-2010, 07:26 PM
have you ever wonder why his teammates seem to produce when he's not dominating the ball but can't when he is?

first off, whos that in your sig??? :speechless:

second, i actually think your right, sometimes kobe does take waaay too many shots, ill be watching a game and ill say come on kobe ppl are open...especially when hes hurt, he has a few different injuries on both hands and he should be passing more then shooting..it not only would improve the lakers and get his teamates more involved, but it would also improve his game..a lot of times defenders always play the shot against kobe cuz a lot of times he does shoot..the passing game is facet of kobes game that i think he could be great at cuz hes such an amazing scorer but hes yet to embrace that..this is the one area lebron blows kobe outta the park

MacFitz92
03-15-2010, 07:31 PM
This is a groundbreaking thread. I mean, holy ****.

When one guy shoots a lot, the team doesn't do as well.

I'm flabbergasted.

I just can't believe it, at all.

Next thing you're going to tell me, the team that shoots a higher FG% gets more rebounds and assists wins more games.

Ground breaking man. Just ground breaking.

x2

GspLAL
03-15-2010, 07:38 PM
It's pretty funny how so many people on this forum go out of their way to try to bash Kobe after he won the title and finals MVP. Posting generic comments without actually watching the game doesn't prove ****. Sometimes Kobe takes a lot of shots but MOST of the time it's because his team isn't producing in the triangle, there's no effort, body language, or the team is just cold so he tries to shoot them out of it.

Lakersfan2483
03-15-2010, 07:50 PM
Don't read too much into Kobe's number of shots because every game is different. If you follow the Lakers closely you will find that he is more aggressive when he senses his teammates are tenative and so his number of shot attempts increases.... It's all about reading the flow of the game, if his supporting cast is clicking on all cylinders and they are aggressive, he's a more than willing passer. Every game is different and he adjusts his game accordingly. Every great scorer/superstar did the same thing that Kobe is now doing (See Michael Jordan, Rick Barry, Dr. J, Karl Malone, G. Gervin). Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that both MJ and Jerry West avg. more shot attempts per game than Kobe. Both guys had a tremendous supporting cast around them as well.


*Kobe is the only superstar that gets threads created to knock him for his shot attempts. You never see threads about the number of shot attempts Melo, Lebron, Durant, etc.. take per game. Why question Kobe's shot attempts? Shall I create a thread everytime Lebron takes 25 or more shots, ditto for Melo? Kobe has proven that his style of play is good enough to lead a team to a title as the no. 1 option. As I said earlier, he reads the flow of the game and depending on the situation, he's more aggressive.

the terminator
03-15-2010, 07:59 PM
Don't read too much into Kobe's number of shots because every game is different. If you follow the Lakers closely you will find that he is more aggressive when he senses his teammates are tenative and so his number of shot attempts increases.... It's all about reading the flow of the game, if his supporting cast is clicking on all cylinders and they are aggressive, he's a more than willing passer. Every game is different and he adjusts his game accordingly. Every great scorer/superstar did the same thing that Kobe is now doing (See Michael Jordan, Rick Barry, Dr. J, Karl Malone, G. Gervin). Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that both MJ and Jerry West avg. more shot attempts per game than Kobe. Both guys had a tremendous supporting cast around them as well.


*Kobe is the only superstar that gets threads created to knock him for his shot attempts. You never see threads about the number of shot attempts Melo, Lebron, Durant, etc.. take per game. Why question Kobe's shot attempts. Kobe has proven that his style of play is good enough to lead a team to a title as the no. 1 option. As I said earlier, he reads the flow of the game and depending on the situation, he's more aggressive.

You know why? It's because of how obnoxious a good amount of lakers fans on here are. They are extremely stubborn and use ill informed logic when debating who the best player is. No matter how many stats you provide to disprove Kobe being the greatest, they simply won't change their stance. Kobe was never hated much on these forums until LeBron became a better player. Kobe fans couldn't stand seeing that, and they quickly became extremely obnoxious.

superkegger
03-15-2010, 08:01 PM
You know why? It's because of how obnoxious a good amount of lakers fans on here are. They are extremely stubborn and use ill informed logic when debating who the best player is. No matter how many stats you provide to disprove Kobe being the greatest, they simply won't change their stance. Kobe was never hated much on these forums until LeBron became a better player. Kobe fans couldn't stand seeing that, and they quickly became extremely obnoxious.


That is incredibly false. Kobe has long been hated. Even before LeBron was in the NBA.

ChiSox219
03-15-2010, 08:02 PM
*Kobe is the only superstar that gets threads created to knock him for his shot attempts. You never see threads about the number of shot attempts Melo, Lebron, Durant, etc.. take per game. Why question Kobe's shot attempts. Kobe has proven that his style of play is good enough to lead a team to a title as the no. 1 option. As I said earlier, he reads the flow of the game and depending on the situation, he's more aggressive.

Those guys all score more efficiently and take fewer shots per game. Also, none of those guys have the supporting cast that Kobe does.

Monta Ellis has been torn to shreds on this forum, maybe not a superstar but a guy some thought should be an all-star.


Jordan never had the offensive firepower Kobe has now.

superkegger
03-15-2010, 08:03 PM
Those guys all score more efficiently and take fewer shots per game. Also, none of those guys have the supporting cast that Kobe does.

Monta Ellis has been torn to shreds on this forum, maybe not a superstar but a guy some thought should be an all-star.


Jordan never had the offensive firepower Kobe has now.

What does Jordan have to do with this conversation?

AirCanada15ORL
03-15-2010, 08:09 PM
Stats/correlations like this drive me absolutely nuts. Absolute garbage sometimes, and people actually buy into it.
The Orlando Magic have never lost a game with Gortat starting over Dwight Howard...hmmm

Raph12
03-15-2010, 08:09 PM
Kobe takes 30+shots when his teammates suck, 20-29 when he just plays within himself and less than 20 when his teams blowing out their opponents, so this doesn't mean ****.

Here's another stats for you Lebron groupies, in the ECFs against the Magic, when Lebron scored 40+ the Cavs were 0-3 and when he scored less than 40 they went 2-1.

So I guess that means the 2009 Cavs were better when Lebron didn't score a lot as well. :rolleyes:

_KB24_
03-15-2010, 08:09 PM
Those guys all score more efficiently and take fewer shots per game. Also, none of those guys have the supporting cast that Kobe does.

Monta Ellis has been torn to shreds on this forum, maybe not a superstar but a guy some thought should be an all-star.


Jordan never had the offensive firepower Kobe has now.

Kobe never had a guy like Pippen.

ChiSox219
03-15-2010, 08:10 PM
What does Jordan have to do with this conversation?

Don't ask me, the guy I responded to is the one who brought his name into it.

ChiSox219
03-15-2010, 08:14 PM
Kobe never had a guy like Pippen.

Pippen was a solid offensive threat but his value was on defense. Artest isn't Pippen, but he takes pressure off Kobe by guarding the bigger wings like Pip did for Jordan.

Offensively, Gasol is much better than Pippen. Bynum is too. Odom ain't bad either.

Lakersfan2483
03-15-2010, 08:17 PM
Those guys all score more efficiently and take fewer shots per game. Also, none of those guys have the supporting cast that Kobe does.

Monta Ellis has been torn to shreds on this forum, maybe not a superstar but a guy some thought should be an all-star.


Jordan never had the offensive firepower Kobe has now.

I disagree with that completely as Lebron and Melo have a great supporting cast. Lebron may not have so-called "household' names but his team is deep and very talented. This current group has great synergy and play extremely well together. I have watched his supporting cast do a great job of building leads and or maintaing leads against top tier teams. Keep in mind, Lebron was on the bench while they were doing all of this.

Melo's supporting cast speaks for itself. The talent on his squad is comprable to Kobe's. I would argue that they have a significant advantage in the backcourt with Billups, Lawson, Carter, Afflalo, etc... The Lakers have an advantage up front, but it's not by a large margin as Nene, Birdman, K. Mart and Melo are one of the best frontcourts in the entire NBA.

As far as MJ is concerned, Jordan had one of the greatest supporting casts built around him. Just because he didn't have a dominant big like O'neal or Wilt, doesn't mean he didn't have a great cast. He had one of the greatest defensive players of all time in Rodman (Pound for pound the best rebounder of all time), he had a top 50 great in Pippen (one of the best perimeter defenders and point forwards in NBA history), great shooters in S. Kerr, Paxson, Hodges, Armstrong. He also had H. Grant who was one of the top power forwards during his time and flat out got it done on both ends of the court. I didn't even mention Kukoc who hit game winners during the postseason, was a great 6th man, one of the top European players of all time and a tremendous talent. His bigs were very capable in terms of knowing their roles and defending the paint. All in all, Jordan had some great talent during both his 3 peat yrs and that was proven when a Jordan-less team lead by Pippen won 55 games and went to the 2nd round.

Kobe avgs. 22 shots a game, Melo avgs. 21 and Bron avgs. 20., so the fact that Kobe takes 2 more shots than Bron, it's an outrage. :rolleyes: Kobe's shot numbers went up when Pau was hurt and also because a lot of the guys have been in and out of the lineup and have not been as effective this season. Like I said, Bryant reads the flow of the game and each game is diffferent.

*One thing is for sure, Kobe has proven he can lead a team to a title and that his style of play produces championships....

Lakersfan2483
03-15-2010, 08:18 PM
Kobe takes 30+shots when his teammates suck, 20-29 when he just plays within himself and less than 20 when his teams blowing out their opponents, so this doesn't mean ****.

Here's another stats for you Lebron groupies, in the ECFs against the Magic, when Lebron scored 40+ the Cavs were 0-3 and when he scored less than 40 they went 2-1.

So I guess that means the 2009 Cavs were better when Lebron didn't score a lot as well. :rolleyes:

:clap:

GspLAL
03-15-2010, 08:18 PM
You know why? It's because of how obnoxious a good amount of lakers fans on here are. They are extremely stubborn and use ill informed logic when debating who the best player is. No matter how many stats you provide to disprove Kobe being the greatest, they simply won't change their stance. Kobe was never hated much on these forums until LeBron became a better player. Kobe fans couldn't stand seeing that, and they quickly became extremely obnoxious.

Last I checked it's non Laker fans who keep making threads about this ******** so I dunno wtf you're talking about. You call Laker fans obnoxious, yet you guys make stupid threads to try to bait them, damn very smart.

Lakersfan2483
03-15-2010, 08:20 PM
Pippen was a solid offensive threat but his value was on defense. Artest isn't Pippen, but he takes pressure off Kobe by guarding the bigger wings like Pip did for Jordan.

Offensively, Gasol is much better than Pippen. Bynum is too. Odom ain't bad either.

None of those guys can touch Pippen in terms of all around game. Pip is a hall of famer and one of the greatest players of all time. He proved himself the year he led the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. He took the Bulls to the 2nd round and if not for a phantom foul in that Knicks game, he may have gone to the finals that year. Scottie was better than any of the Lakers current support players.

ChiSox219
03-15-2010, 08:25 PM
I disagree with that completely as Lebron and Melo have a great supporting cast. Lebron may not have so-called "household' names but his team is deep and very talented. This current group has great synergy and play extremely well together. I have watched his supporting cast do a great job of building leads and or maintaing leads against top tier teams. Keep in mind, Lebron was on the bench while they were doing all of this.

Melo's supporting cast speaks for itself. The talent on his squad is comprable to Kobe's. I would argue that they have a significant advantage in the backcourt with Billups, Lawson, Carter, Afflalo, etc... The Lakers have an advantage up front, but it's not by a large margin as Nene, Birdman, K. Mart and Melo are one of the best frontcourts in the entire NBA.

As far as MJ is concerned, Jordan had one of the greatest supporting casts built around him. Just because he didn't have a dominant big like O'neal or Wilt, doesn't mean he didn't have a great cast. He had one of the greatest defensive players of all time in Rodman (Pound for pound the best rebounder of all time), he had a top 50 great in Pippen (one of the best perimeter defenders and point forwards in NBA history), great shooters in S. Kerr, Paxson, Hodges, Armstrong. He also had H. Grant who was one of the top power forwards during his time and flat out got it done on both ends of the court. I didn't even mention Kukoc who hit game winners during the postseason, was a great 6th man, one of the top European players of all time and a tremendous talent. His bigs were very capable in terms of knowing their roles and defending the paint. All in all, Jordan had some great talent during both his 3 peat yrs and that was proven when a Jordan-less team lead by Pippen won 55 games and went to the 2nd round.

Kobe avgs. 22 shots a game, Melo avgs. 21 and Bron avgs. 20., so the fact that Kobe takes 2 more shots than Bron, it's an outrage. :rolleyes: Kobe's shot numbers went up when Pau was hurt and also because a lot of the guys have been in and out of the lineup and have not been as effective this season. Like I said, Bryant reads the flow of the game and each game is diffferent.

*One thing is for sure, Kobe has proven he can lead a team to a title and that his style of play produces championships....


None of those guys can touch Pippen in terms of all around game. Pip is a hall of famer and one of the greatest players of all time. He proved himself the year he led the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan. He took the Bulls to the 2nd round and if not for a phantom foul in that Knicks game, he may have gone to the finals that year. Scottie was better than any of the Lakers current support players.

We're talking all-around or defensive talent here, this is about Kobe excessive shooting when he has other great offensive weapons. Gasol is a better offensive player than Jordan had or Lebron has.

I agree Pippen was an amazing player, and a pretty good offensive threat. But if we are talking only about offense, you have to go with Gasol

Chronz
03-15-2010, 08:42 PM
clearly kobe should never shoot the ball. splits arent very telling its one of those chicken vs egg arguments

ink
03-15-2010, 09:05 PM
That is incredibly false. Kobe has long been hated. Even before LeBron was in the NBA.

True. I think the hate really started in 2003. That's when Lebron was getting drafted so there wasn't even a rivalry then.

Let's get back to the thread topic.

handle
03-15-2010, 09:09 PM
completely agree.

If any of you have been watching Laker games consistently this year, you'd realize that Pau, Drew, and even Lamar some nights don't show up offensively at all.

None of the Kobe haters actually watch any games - they might SAY they do, but they don't. They just blindly hate, ignorant of the facts. It's pathetic.

ink
03-15-2010, 09:12 PM
No point in having a thread where the only discussion point is who hates hardest.