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_KB24_
03-02-2010, 01:31 AM
Ok, I'm getting sick of Mavs fans the past couple of days with their logic. Make this simple and plain. Post who you think is a better team and has the better shot of reaching the WCF.

HoopsDrive
03-02-2010, 01:35 AM
I'm gonna go with the Denver Mavericks.

Meth
03-02-2010, 01:37 AM
I'm gonna go with the Denver Mavericks.

You are wise.

Also, please just vote and not reply to this thread. Else logic takes over and interweb drama begins to happen.

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 01:40 AM
Give this poll 24 hours, most people are gonna come from the thread I made and pick the Nuggets although they know Dallas has the better chance.

_KB24_
03-02-2010, 01:41 AM
Give this poll 24 hours, most people are gonna come from the thread I made and pick the Nuggets although they know Dallas has the better chance.

You can't even get your own fanbase to agree with you. Just stop talking.

HoopsDrive
03-02-2010, 01:43 AM
You are wise.

Also, please just vote and not reply to this thread. Else logic takes over and interweb drama begins to happen.

Not even God can stop this from happening. A mod on the other hand...

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 01:46 AM
You can't even get your own fanbase to agree with you. Just stop talking.

You consider Y2K fanbase? LOL

You're a trip.

ManRam
03-02-2010, 01:48 AM
Yum. More bickering.

I still think it's Denver though.

GSW Hoops
03-02-2010, 01:48 AM
Mavericks. With Butler, Kidd, Marion, Haywood, Dampier, JT, Dirk and others, they're stacked at pretty much every position. They have a more complete team than Denver...other than Dirk, who I think does more harm than good sometimes. I think they may even be able to win the NBA title.

CBCable
03-02-2010, 01:55 AM
I'm a Mavs fan, I do believe that this trade has the ability to put them on par with the Lakers, and ahead of Denver.

Maybe not, though. Way too soon to tell. I just hope people don't get swayed by Mavrix's legendary douche parade in the other thread.

still1ballin
03-02-2010, 01:56 AM
I like the more experienced team. Denver. Billups is a team killer and the Nuggets just know how to get it done.

tr4shb0t
03-02-2010, 01:56 AM
Denver, but Mavs could pull an upset in a series with HCA because Denver has its share of problems.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 01:58 AM
denver, not really close imo

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 01:59 AM
denver, not really close imo

This deserves a big fat :facepalm:

st3voness
03-02-2010, 02:00 AM
Whoever gets the #2 seed - which looks to be Dallas at this point with their cupcake schedule to end the season and Denver having the 4th hardest remaining schedule.

Also, Denver is not good on the road .. and they're not even playing good basketball right now.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:00 AM
This deserves a big fat :facepalm:

says the homer mavs fan

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:02 AM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460653

Check out the poll. That's all I have to say.

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:03 AM
says the homer mavs fan

Great come back. You say it's not really close yet you fail to give an explanation.

You lose.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:05 AM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460653

Check out the poll. That's all I have to say.

Since when did polls prove anything? At all? I remember there was PSD's top 10 centers or something or teams that will make the ECF finals and because of the polls, Bargs was apparently a top 3 center, and the raptors made it to the ECF finals.

PSD polls are as reliable as trying to beat tetris.

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:05 AM
Denver playing like **** right now....But Dallas isnt nothin to worry about.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:06 AM
Great come back. You say it's not really close yet you fail to give an explanation.

You lose.

really? Because i never actually heard your explanation as to why the mavs are better?

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:06 AM
Since when did polls prove anything? At all? I remember there was PSD's top 10 centers or something or teams that will make the ECF finals and because of the polls, Bargs was apparently a top 3 center, and the raptors made it to the ECF finals.

PSD polls are as reliable as trying to beat tetris.

Way to contradict this thread.

still1ballin
03-02-2010, 02:07 AM
Great come back. You say it's not really close yet you fail to give an explanation.

You lose.

Don't talk about comebacks Mr. "Speak english" "Use proper grammar" "You are 16 yrs old"

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:08 AM
really? Because i never actually heard your explanation as to why the mavs are better?

Is this your come back? Is this your explanation? You want to see what I have to say before you voice your opinion? Wow.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:08 AM
Way to contradict this thread.

I did didn't i :D. However, there are actually a majority of posts favoring the nuggets.

I only said POLLS are not reliable, actual posts however, are a different matter ;)

still1ballin
03-02-2010, 02:08 AM
Mavrix should change his sig from "Mavricks daily fan" to Mavericks daily "homer"

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:09 AM
Dallas has been playing there best ball of late and we have been playing with no energy. Obviously we need Ty Lawson and Chris Andersen back but if we play the way we are now with lack of energy I can see the Mavs' taking the 2 seed. They are confident and are rolling right now. As for a playoff series I'd still take my Nuggets as when we are focused we are perhaps the best team in the league we've shown that when we beat the Lakers twice and the Cavs twice. But we turn around and blow games like we have to the T-Wolves. Just really depends on what Nuggets show up the rest of the season. I'm still hoping for my Nuggets but right now the Mavs have there swagger, we have to get ours back up.

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:09 AM
Don't talk about comebacks Mr. "Speak english" "Use proper grammar" "You are 16 yrs old"

:facepalm:

You're taking "come back" in the wrong context, bud.

Come back as in explanation.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:10 AM
Is this your come back? Is this your explanation? You want to see what I have to say before you voice your opinion? Wow.

Your the one that thought that my opinion was wrong so i would like to hear an explanation which will probably be as good as you explaining how josh howard was better offensively then pau gasol as to why you think the mavs are better then the nuggets?

That's all Texan ;)

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:10 AM
Mavrix should change his sig from "Mavricks daily fan" to Mavericks daily "homer"

o0o0o0ooooooo that one hurt!

still1ballin
03-02-2010, 02:12 AM
:facepalm:

You're taking "come back" in the wrong context, bud.

Come back as in explanation.

Sorry, I didn't know you were my english teacher. Would you like an apple

GCOOKIE7
03-02-2010, 02:13 AM
I got the Dallas Nuggets winning it all and having the best record in the league. Anybody wanna' sig bet?

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:14 AM
denver, not really close imo

God I would love to buy a beer for the guys that use to beat the s--- out of you in high school. Come on dude. It's one thing to say that the Nuggets are better than the Mavericks. It's within the realm of possibility, but to say "it's not even close" is such a homo thing to say. :laugh:

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:14 AM
Your the one that thought that my opinion was wrong so i would like to hear an explanation which will probably be as good as you explaining how josh howard was better offensively then pau gasol as to why you think the mavs are better then the nuggets?

That's all Texan ;)

Because they're 8-1 since their trade? Because in that stretch they have beat contenders in the Lakers, Magic (road), and Hawks (road)? Because they have beaten playoff contenders in the Suns, Hornets, Heat, and Bobcats (road)? Because 3 of those wins came on a second night of a back to back? Because NO team has scored over 100 points since the trade?

Should I keep going?

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:16 AM
Sorry, I didn't know you were my english teacher. Would you like an apple

Why are you apologizing for a misunderstanding? lmao.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:16 AM
I'm a Mavs fan, I do believe that this trade has the ability to put them on par with the Lakers, and ahead of Denver.

Maybe not, though. Way too soon to tell. I just hope people don't get swayed by Mavrix's legendary douche parade in the other thread.

Dude, even God Himself (Kobe Bryant) said they are on par with the Lakers. Of course, you'll hear Laker fans say Kobe was merely using a metaphor as He did and was quoted in the New Testament in the bible. :facepalm:

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:16 AM
God I would love to buy a beer for the guys that use to beat the s--- out of you in high school.

**** how did you know :hide:

still1ballin
03-02-2010, 02:17 AM
Why are you apologizing for a misunderstanding? lmao.

its called sarcasm fool! can't you read? wow

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:18 AM
Why do we even try to have threads like this? Always end up with like sad little fights, 5 sig bets, just nobody can be reasonable.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:18 AM
Because they're 8-1 since their trade? Because in that stretch they have beat contenders in the Lakers, Magic (road), and Hawks (road)? Because they have beaten playoff contenders in the Suns, Hornets, Heat, and Bobcats (road)? Because 3 of those wins came on a second night of a back to back? Because NO team has scored over 100 points since the trade?

Should I keep going?

Actually yes keep going, because going on a good stretch late in the regular season does not=winning in the playoffs or better then the nuggets for the WHOLE season.

Even you as a mavs fan should know that.

still1ballin
03-02-2010, 02:20 AM
Dude, even God Himself (Kobe Bryant) said they are on par with the Lakers. Of course, you'll hear Laker fans say Kobe was merely using a metaphor as He did and was quoted in the New Testament in the bible. :facepalm:

Well of course he is gonna say that. What you want him to say? No, the Mavs are still not up to our level? LOL, Yes I do agree Mavs got better, but are they at the Lakers level? No? According to many NBA anaylsts they say this too.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:20 AM
Denver playing like **** right now....But Dallas isnt nothin to worry about.

Um, you expect to beat the Mavericks when you're playing like ****? There is plenty to worry (for BOTH teams) when you're playing great basketball... but playing like ****? :facepalm:

*edited: Replaced Nuggets with mavericks, facepalm myself!!!*

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:21 AM
Actually yes keep going, because going on a good stretch late in the regular season does not=winning in the playoffs or better then the nuggets for the WHOLE season.

Even you as a mavs fan should know that.

The WHOLE season is irrelevent because the Mavericks transformed their team two weeks ago. That's what no one wants to understand.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:22 AM
Dallas has been playing there best ball of late and we have been playing with no energy.

That is the scariest thing about the Mavericks. They haven't really even begun to play their best basketball....

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:24 AM
Um, you expect to beat the Nuggets when you're playing like ****? There is plenty to worry (for BOTH teams) when you're playing great basketball... but playing like ****? :facepalm:



Yeah...Because when playoffs come around, I know Nuggets wont be playing like ****...And I know Nuggets can take your newy improved team in a 7 game series....Dont get pissed when it happens.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 02:25 AM
The WHOLE season is irrelevent because the Mavericks transformed their team two weeks ago. That's what no one wants to understand.

Everybody here knows and even agreed that the mavs got better, but i think there's something like wait and see what happens in the playoffs instead of talking a lot of **** like you have nothing to prove is something you don't want to understand.

Mavrix
03-02-2010, 02:26 AM
Everybody here knows and even agreed that the mavs got better, but i think there's something like wait and see what happens in the playoffs instead of talking a lot of **** like you have nothing to prove is something you don't want to understand.

Wait and see what happens in the playoffs yet the Nuggets are still better than the Mavs? I'll argue against that all I want because I know my team after the trade is a hell of a lot better.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:27 AM
Actually yes keep going, because going on a good stretch late in the regular season does not=winning in the playoffs or better then the nuggets for the WHOLE season.

Even you as a mavs fan should know that.

Not trying to butt in with yours and Mavrix little fight here, but as it stands the Mavericks have the number 2 seed having played a tougher schedule so far. It's why we use the talking point that we have one of the easiest schedules remaining in the NBA. So if we managed to get the 2 seed with a tough --- schedule, I would say it's pretty good supporting evidence that they are better than the Nuggets.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:28 AM
Well of course he is gonna say that. What you want him to say? No, the Mavs are still not up to our level? LOL, Yes I do agree Mavs got better, but are they at the Lakers level? No? According to many NBA anaylsts they say this too.

And you proved my point. :laugh:

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:30 AM
Yeah...Because when playoffs come around, I know Nuggets wont be playing like ****...And I know Nuggets can take your newy improved team in a 7 game series....Dont get pissed when it happens.

Billups gets you out of the 1st round and you're auto-locked for the WCF? :facepalm:

I don't even think the Mavericks are an auto-lock for the WCF... nor do I think the Lakers are. We should all be worried to some degree. Such a homer thing to say you're not worried even when you play like s---.

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:32 AM
Billups gets you out of the 1st round and you're auto-locked for the WCF? :facepalm:


Still better then the Mavs regardless. Get right. :cool:

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:34 AM
Still better then the Mavs regardless. Get right. :cool:

Yet we're the number 2 seed? You brought no new support for your argument but would rather continue to sounds like a homer.

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:35 AM
Not trying to butt in with yours and Mavrix little fight here, but as it stands the Mavericks have the number 2 seed having played a tougher schedule so far. It's why we use the talking point that we have one of the easiest schedules remaining in the NBA. So if we managed to get the 2 seed with a tough --- schedule, I would say it's pretty good supporting evidence that they are better than the Nuggets.
Don't think you can go by that totally cause' we have had a lot of injuries this year. You guys haven't had to play without Dirk/Kidd for the same amount of time that we have without Melo'/Billups. I know your lesser guys have missed some time but so have ours. Just saying we have played 14 games without Melo', 10 without Billups'. And our record is deceiving because we have lost focus against terrible teams, in fact not sure if we still do but we have the best record against above 500' teams. Just saying you can't go by that. We'll never know until playoff time. And can you tell me where you are getting that you had a harder schedule or is that opinion?

HoopsDrive
03-02-2010, 02:36 AM
I got the Dallas Nuggets winning it all and having the best record in the league. Anybody wanna' sig bet?

You're on. I take the Denver Mavericks in a 7 game series any day of the week on top of that.

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:38 AM
Yet we're the number 2 seed? You brought no new support for your argument but would rather continue to sounds like a homer.

You're little one day stand at 2nd seed isn't scaring nobodys doggs.....Yall blowin **** outta proportion, and thinking yall own the universe all of a sudden...You're team needs to prove in the playoffs, instead of puttin on speculation.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:39 AM
Don't think you can go by that totally cause' we have had a lot of injuries this year. You guys haven't had to play without Dirk/Kidd for the same amount of time that we have without Melo'/Billups. I know your lesser guys have missed some time but so have ours. Just saying we have played 14 games without Melo', 10 without Billups'. And our record is deceiving because we have lost focus against terrible teams, in fact not sure if we still do but we have the best record against above 500' teams. Just saying you can't go by that. We'll never know.

You're actually one of the better Nugget fans and I applaud your effort in at least attempting to bring legit support for your reasoning. :clap:

However, we played without Josh Howard for a really long time (yes he sucks but he was so good in recent years). Dampier has been out for a really long time as well. Yes, Erica does suck but he is crucial for us seeing as he was our ONLY legit big body (that is until the trade). Dirk was injured and missed a couple games and had to cope with playing with that big a-- diaper on his elbow. It's easy to blame it on injuries so lets scratch them as both teams have had them.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:41 AM
You're little one day stand at 2nd seed isn't scaring nobodys doggs.....Yall blowin **** outta proportion, and thinking yall own the universe all of a sudden...You're team needs to prove in the playoffs, instead of puttin on speculation.

Exactly. The way I see it... BOTH OUR TEAMS HAVE TO PROVE IT. Yet you think because you went toe-to-toe and lost in 6 games to the Lakers you're better than this new Mavs team and are automatic WCF bound? Come on...

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:41 AM
I edited my post but sure you didn't see it, where you getting that you had a harder schedule then us?

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:41 AM
You're actually one of the better Nugget fans and I applaud your effort in at least attempting to bring legit support for your reasoning. :clap:

However, we played without Josh Howard for a really long time (yes he sucks but he was so good in recent years). Dampier has been out for a really long time as well. Yes, Erica does suck but he is crucial for us seeing as he was our ONLY legit big body (that is until the trade). Dirk was injured and missed a couple games and had to cope with playing with that big a-- diaper on his elbow. It's easy to blame it on injuries so lets scratch them as both teams have had them.

Eric Dampier,Josh Howard, and Dirk being out a couple of games dont equal..Missing Chancey and Melo both at the same time, and also missing K-MART....You think you have a valid argument to everything...Blah blha yaself.

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:42 AM
Exactly. The way I see it... BOTH OUR TEAMS HAVE TO PROVE IT. Yet you think because you went toe-to-toe and lost in 6 games to the Lakers you're better than this new Mavs team and are automatic WCF bound? Come on...

Nah we beat yall last year in the playoffs...You're team has to beat us this year in the playoffs to PROVE....It doesnt take rocket science, yet you tryna make it that way. LOL.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:43 AM
Eric Dampier,Josh Howard, and Dirk being out a couple of games dont equal..Missing Chancey and Melo both at the same time, and also missing K-MART....You think you have a valid argument to everything...Blah blha yaself.

Dirk was the only one out a couple, the rest were out for a lot longer than 2 games. Come on dude... :P

_KB24_
03-02-2010, 02:43 AM
Exactly. The way I see it... BOTH OUR TEAMS HAVE TO PROVE IT. Yet you think because you went toe-to-toe and lost in 6 games to the Lakers you're better than this new Mavs team and are automatic WCF bound? Come on...

It doesn't mean automatic, but it sure of a hell does help a lot. Didn't the Mavs get handled last year by the Nuggets?

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:45 AM
Dirk was the only one out a couple, the rest were out for a lot longer than 2 games. Come on dude... :P

Please...Missing Eric and Josh does not equal missing Melo and Chauncey...And Chauncey was out for awhile aswell..And we had both of them out at the same time for some games...Stop it.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:50 AM
Please...Missing Eric and Josh does not equal missing Melo and Chauncey...And Chauncey was out for awhile aswell..And we had both of them out at the same time for some games...Stop it.

Since we're resorting to excuses... here is mine...

The Mavericks would have won all their games if all their shots went in the hoop... so their record is deceiving. Such bs and you know it. Have more respect for your team than to use stupid excuses. If you win while players are injured, awesome, you're suppose to. If you lose, whose faul is it? THE TEAMS!

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:51 AM
You're actually one of the better Nugget fans and I applaud your effort in at least attempting to bring legit support for your reasoning. :clap:

However, we played without Josh Howard for a really long time (yes he sucks but he was so good in recent years). Dampier has been out for a really long time as well. Yes, Erica does suck but he is crucial for us seeing as he was our ONLY legit big body (that is until the trade). Dirk was injured and missed a couple games and had to cope with playing with that big a-- diaper on his elbow. It's easy to blame it on injuries so lets scratch them as both teams have had them.
Yeah but the difference between us is that you have a lot more depth then we do. Even now you have Beaubois who has been promising, Stevenson obviously prior to trade that wasn't the case, Najera/Damp' you guys have all around more depth then we do. When playoff time comes that will not be the case. And I am sorry comparing Howard, Dampier, to not having Melo' and Billups is very far off and I think you know that. The guys we rely on most have been out and we don't have the talent to fill the gaps. Come playoff time that won't be an issue. I will say that you guys might be better suited off for the regular season; we are more suited for the playoffs. If we are healthy we rarely lose, in fact I think we are some insane number of wins to losses when we are. You can think your team is better and I respect that, I just disagree with you. We handled you guys last year for a reason that is that we shut down Dirk with K-Mart and you guys just didn’t have enough. You guys retooled by getting Haywood an upgrade and Butler an upgrade we filled our only two holes in AC and DJ by getting Afflalo and Lawson two upgrades.

It’ll certainly be interesting if we meet up, but as of now there’s no way to say who is better. We are going to have to wait and see.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:52 AM
It doesn't mean automatic, but it sure of a hell does help a lot. Didn't the Mavs get handled last year by the Nuggets?

Not man handled but they did beat the Mavericks. Just as 2 seasons ago the Celtics "manhandled" the Lakers but the Lakers ended up winning the championship the follow year.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, other than baiting, by bringing up the Dallas/Nuggets series.

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:52 AM
Since we're resorting to excuses... here is mine...

The Mavericks would have won all their games if all their shots went in the hoop... so their record is deceiving. Such bs and you know it. Have more respect for your team than to use stupid excuses. If you win while players are injured, awesome, you're suppose to. If you lose, whose faul is it? THE TEAMS!

HaHa crybaby Mavs fans...Have to resort to the excuse of using excuses in a debate...I guarantee you'd say the same thing if Dirk and Kidd missed a number of games, no matter how much you deny you would...Get real.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:53 AM
Yeah but the difference between us is that you have a lot more depth then we do. Even now you have Beaubois who has been promising, Stevenson obviously prior to trade that wasn't the case, Najera/Damp' you guys have all around more depth then we do. When playoff time comes that will not be the case. And I am sorry comparing Howard, Dampier, to not having Melo' and Billups is very far off and I think you know that. The guys we rely on most have been out and we don't have the talent to fill the gaps. Come playoff time that won't be an issue. I will say that you guys might be better suited off for the regular season; we are more suited for the playoffs. If we are healthy we rarely lose, in fact I think we are some insane number of wins to losses when we are. You can think your team is better and I respect that, I just disagree with you. We handled you guys last year for a reason that is that we shut down Dirk with K-Mart and you guys just didn’t have enough. You guys retooled by getting Haywood an upgrade and Butler an upgrade we filled our only two holes in AC and DJ by getting Afflalo and Lawson two upgrades.

It’ll certainly be interesting if we meet up, but as of now there’s no way to say who is better. We are going to have to wait and see.

You make valid points. But I am willing to agree to disagree with some of the points I don't agree with.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:54 AM
HaHa crybaby Mavs fans...Have to resort to the excuse of using excuses in a debate...I guarantee you'd say the same thing if Dirk and Kidd missed a number of games, no matter how much you deny you would...Get real.

VIP, this is what I was talking about when I said you're actually different than these type of Nugget fans. :P

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:54 AM
I am fine with that, just please don't bait in the Nuggets forum any more.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:55 AM
HaHa crybaby Mavs fans...Have to resort to the excuse of using excuses in a debate...I guarantee you'd say the same thing if Dirk and Kidd missed a number of games, no matter how much you deny you would...Get real.

What would you guarantee? You would obviously lose. If you even go to the Mavs forum and read my post I don't let injuries give us a copout if we lose. For example, in the Mavs v. Cavs game, Dirk was out... I didn't give a f--- if Dirk was out, we are suppose to win if we are to prove we are somebody in the West. So stfu and stop acting like you know me... Why not try to be more like VIP?

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:56 AM
VIP, this is what I was talking about when I said you're actually different than these type of Nugget fans. :P

Exactly...Keep trying redirect the attention away from the facts, and use the excuses of "I agree to disagree" without anything substantial to provide why you disagree, and "Making excuses". Just get over it. :clap:

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:56 AM
I am fine with that, just please don't bait in the Nuggets forum any more.

Who was baiting?

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 02:57 AM
What would you guarantee? You would obviously lose. If you even go to the Mavs forum and read my post I don't let injuries give us a copout if we lose. For example, in the Mavs v. Cavs game, Dirk was out... I didn't give a f--- if Dirk was out, we are suppose to win if we are to prove we are somebody in the West. So stfu and stop acting like you know me... Why not try to be more like VIP?

You gettin madd??? LOL....I guarantee you would if you missed KIDD and Dirk for a number of games, not just a Mavs vs Cavs game...F outta here.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 02:57 AM
Exactly...Keep trying redirect the attention away from the facts, and use the excuses of "I agree to disagree" without anything substantial to provide why you disagree, and "Making excuses". Just get over it. :clap:

:laugh:

VIP and I have been discussing them. That's cool you agree with him, you are after all a Nuggets fan, but bringing excuses to a discussion is a copout and you know it. Ask ANYONE that on PSD.

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 02:58 AM
Who was baiting?
With the whole *Cricket Cricket* thing. If you made it seem like a joke and not just being a dick I wouldn't have cared, much less saying something relevent. Just don't feel there's any need for that at all. We knew we played bad there's no reason to rub it in.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 03:00 AM
You gettin madd??? LOL....I guarantee you would if you missed KIDD and Dirk for a number of games, not just a Mavs vs Cavs game...F outta here.


I made a sig bet with KB24, go to the post where I even said "I don't care if Dirk AND/OR Kobe get injured the bet is still on" ... the bet that if we lose we would delete our account.

So you "F outta here" internet tough guy.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 03:01 AM
With the whole *Cricket Cricket* thing. If you made it seem like a joke and not just being a dick I wouldn't have cared, much less saying something relevent. Just don't feel there's any need for that at all. We knew we played bad there's no reason to rub it in.

That's not baiting.... :P

Avenged
03-02-2010, 03:01 AM
Well my pick is Denver.
(Mavs fans will attack me for it now) LOL!

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 03:02 AM
I made a sig bet with KB24, go to the post where I even said "I don't care if Dirk AND/OR Kobe get injured the bet is still on" ... the bet that if we lose we would delete our account.

So you "F outta here" internet tough guy.

http://i46.tinypic.com/sxd2qb.jpg

And that SIG BET means what to me???? Like I said, I GUARANTEE you would if Kidd and Dirk missed out....Something deep inside you would bring it out...Not because it's an excuse, but because its fact..Again...Get real.

VIP1349
03-02-2010, 03:03 AM
That's not baiting.... :P
Still isn't needed either.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 03:04 AM
Well my pick is Denver.
(Mavs fans will attack me for it now) LOL!

Naw man. It's within the realm of possibility that Denver is better. You would just have to ignore all recent evidence and go purely on last seasons playoffs to think this.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 03:04 AM
Still isn't needed either.

Agreed. Tell the thuggets to stay out the Mavs and I will not do that anymore. You have my word.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 03:07 AM
And that SIG BET means what to me???? Like I said, I GUARANTEE you would if Kidd and Dirk missed out....Something deep inside you would bring it out...Not because it's an excuse, but because its fact..Again...Get real.

:laugh:
It's suppose to mean that you can't guarantee anything and you're wrong because I obviously am someone who has pride in a team that excuses do not fly! Why else would I even mention before making the bet with KB24 that we aren't allowed to blame it on injuries and that the bet IS STILL going to be on?

"F outta here." :laugh2:

Go_NUGGETS
03-02-2010, 03:10 AM
:laugh:
It's suppose to mean that you can't guarantee anything and you're wrong because I obviously am someone who has pride in a team that excuses do not fly! Why else would I even mention before making the bet with KB24 that we aren't allowed to blame it on injuries and that the bet IS STILL going to be on?

"F outta here." :laugh2:

That doesnt rule out that you still would....You can deny it all you want, for the sake of saving face for yourself in this debate, and using it as a way to call down on people as "making excuses". But please o please.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 03:11 AM
That doesnt rule out that you still would....You can deny it all you want, for the sake of saving face for yourself in this debate, and using it as a way to call down on people as "making excuses". But please o please.

Are you JR Smith?

Sadds The Gr8
03-02-2010, 03:24 AM
Denver is a physical team, which I think gives them the edge over the Mavs, and gives them a better chance at the Lakers. The Mavs may have the better roster, but they are a finesse team, with players like Dirk, Butler, Marion, Barea, and undersized Terry at the SG. And like Kenny Smith said, you can't bring Finesse against the Lakers because they will out-finesse you and can out-finesse any team. The way to beat the Lakers is to push them and bully them around, (like Boston did) and Denver is a team that certainly has that playing style.

Bashna
03-02-2010, 03:34 AM
Nuggets are the better playoff team IMO. But during the reg season i bet mavs pick up the better record.

Quikdraw
03-02-2010, 03:43 AM
Denver.

Skizzik
03-02-2010, 03:45 AM
I like the more experienced team. Denver. Billups is a team killer and the Nuggets just know how to get it done.

I don't care about all the other babbling. Obviously, people will disagree over everything and being anonymous on the internet they'll make bets and threats and swear to God their team is the greatest thing ever. But this one quote I'll argue. I'm sorry, but the Nuggets aren't more experienced. Unless I'm mistaken, only one has been to the Finals (Billups). The Mavs have a roster full of players that have been to (and I'll admit, lost) the Finals. Kidd, Terry, Dirk, Damp. Marion regularly has been to the western conference finals with the Suns. Butler played for the Lakers. And most of our players have played 10+ years.

I call it a toss up between Denver and the Mavs, because no matter what points you want to make, it won't affect the fact the two teams are really good, but a step behind the Lakers. But there's no way you can call Denver more experienced.

GREATNESS ONE
03-02-2010, 03:52 AM
My opinion the Mavs are a very very good team.

BUT

Season= Mavs
Playoffs= Nuggets

Until proven otherwise. This Mavs team looks very good and they made one hell of a trade.

shep33
03-02-2010, 03:54 AM
I think this series goes to 7. Denver in 7 I think... I like the matchups with Dirk vs Kmart, Nene, and Birdman. JR Smith and Terry off the benches are gonna be x factors. I'll take Denver just cause, i think they can outscore Dallas if the games go to a fast paced style. The key for Dallas is not to try and play the Nuggets uptempo game. Gotta slow the game when playing these guys, cause when they get out, Billups is hitting pull up 3's, Melo, Smith, and Nene run as good as anyone in the league, Lawson pushes the tempo. It'll be good, game 7 Nuggets 98 Mavs 94.

asmarks18
03-02-2010, 04:06 AM
Mavs keep playing like this we can beat anyone. Denver is really good though. I really hope we play each other again the 2nd round. I would like some payback and have a chance to prove the doubters wrong.

bigmac8675
03-02-2010, 04:23 AM
Mavs...

GREATNESS ONE
03-02-2010, 04:32 AM
Mavs keep playing like this we can beat anyone. Denver is really good though. I really hope we play each other again the 2nd round. I would like some payback and have a chance to prove the doubters wrong.

I can't wait too see that series

jlee3936
03-02-2010, 04:33 AM
matchups:

haywood vs nene - haywood wins numbers wise (BPG, RPG), but both can impact a game by crashing the offensive boards and blocking shots. i would say theyre kinda equal.

butler vs afflalo - yes, afflalo shoots high percentages but carons little midrange jumper is automatic. plus he plays hella defense aka tough juice. butler wins here.

marion vs melo - melo hands down wins here, but marion has been noted for playing some good defense this year. but melo would have his good games more times than not in a 7 game series.

nowitzki vs kmart - dirk by a lot, and thats an understatement. i know kmart plays dirk very well defensivly, but i think if we get home court dirk will play as him usual self in those home games. plus, hes really mastered his elbow/free throw line shot and almost makes him unstopabble at times. i think whenever dirk has a bad shooting night its mostly mental on his part and not so much good defense. its not like you can block a 7-footer fading away on a regular basis.

kidd vs billups - i would give an edge to billups. kidd averages a few more assists per game but doesnt have the scoring ability like billups (he can actually drain contested 3's where as kidd has to be wide open to make one).

JT vs JR - when theyre cold theyre cold. when hot, they can both go off. ill let the 6th man trophy speak for itself and give an edge to terry here.

then theres other matchups to consider like anderson vs damp, lawson vs barea/beaubois. anderson definitely wins there, and i think very highly of lawson but i also think highly of barea, and even beaubois but he prob wont play in the playoffs much. i would say lawson and barea are pretty equal in terms of what they can bring to a game when theyre playing good.

this is such an amazing matchup that i cant wait to see. i really think home court advantage will make the difference here. and i predict the mavs will get HCA because of their remaining schedule (dal - 4th easiest, den - 27th), and might even get 1st place. therefore, i predict the mavs would win a 7 game series over the nuggets this year given that they dont blow it against some lesser team in the 1st round.. which is unlikely because avery johnson is no longer our coach. these are my reasonings so feel free to argue.

jlee3936
03-02-2010, 04:48 AM
Denver is a physical team, which I think gives them the edge over the Mavs, and gives them a better chance at the Lakers. The Mavs may have the better roster, but they are a finesse team, with players like Dirk, Butler, Marion, Barea, and undersized Terry at the SG. And like Kenny Smith said, you can't bring Finesse against the Lakers because they will out-finesse you and can out-finesse any team. The way to beat the Lakers is to push them and bully them around, (like Boston did) and Denver is a team that certainly has that playing style.

ill agree with kenny smith in that you cant out-finesse the lakers, but i think the mavs are a hell of a lot more physical now. butlers midrange jumper is the only finesse thing about him. his defense is physical and keeps active hands. haywood brings all kinds of toughness and physicality. we all know deshawn stevenson is physical though he has zero offense. and kidd plays tough d, always has. so what im saying is this isnt the same team as the one before the trade. i think that when kobe called the mavs "legit contenders" he was either being nice and just saying good things about them because he was in dallas for the all star game, or he was hugely understating the fact that this team is now scary good. i think the west comes down to LA and dallas.

alencp3
03-02-2010, 05:30 AM
Caron Butler vs Aaron Aflallo

todu82
03-02-2010, 09:12 AM
Denver

J-Relo
03-02-2010, 09:18 AM
MAVS - a more complete team

MacFitz92
03-02-2010, 09:53 AM
My opinion the Mavs are a very very good team.

BUT

Season= Mavs
Playoffs= Nuggets

Until proven otherwise. This Mavs team looks very good and they made one hell of a trade.

What in the hell are you talking about?

This Nuggets team hasn't even made it to the Finals. Unlike the Mavs who did it some years ago. The problem was Dirk had to much on him. Now there are players to take some pressure off him.

Raidaz4Life
03-02-2010, 09:55 AM
Mavs

Tribe
03-02-2010, 09:56 AM
Denver...who will lose to cleveland in finals

avrpatsfan
03-02-2010, 10:11 AM
Nuggets. Melo, one of the best players in the game, Billups, Hall of Fame PG with career high numbers this year, Nene, JR, great bench. They're stacked.

Young2Kinsler
03-02-2010, 10:27 AM
Look, I'm a Mavs fan, but right now it has to be Denver. They ended Dallas' season last year, and has given the Mavs problems all year. Denver is deep at a position where Dallas is not... bigs. Even with a healthy Damp, that still only leaves us 2 big men outside of Dirk.

Just let it play out, Dallas could definately beat Denver, but until it happens, Denver is the better team.

MacFitz92
03-02-2010, 10:29 AM
Nuggets. Melo, one of the best players in the game, Billups, Hall of Fame PG with career high numbers this year, Nene, JR, great bench. They're stacked.

Best player in the game, Hall of Fame PG. Great bench? Looks like you just described the Mavs. Dirk, Kidd, the only thing is, the Mavs have better support players than the Nuggets. Butler, Terry, Marion, Haywood, Damp.

Young2Kinsler
03-02-2010, 10:36 AM
All I ask is everyone look at what Mavs fans outside of Mavrix are saying. Don't take his belligerent ignorance as a entire fanbase thing.

JayW_1023
03-02-2010, 10:47 AM
It tough to say. I think it could go either way. A bad bounce would make the difference.

bahama0811
03-02-2010, 10:48 AM
Denver. Now back into hiding. :hide:

jason6692
03-02-2010, 10:53 AM
the dallas mavericks are better why can't nuggets fans understand that with this rade we are a very good team we are not the same team from last year with josh howard and his lack of ankles and no low post presence sorry nuggets but the mavs are after simply better lets just hope that when the nuggets dont accomplish what yall think chris '' the meth man '' anderson doesn't go into relapse

JayW_1023
03-02-2010, 10:53 AM
Right now i would pick Dallas because of their bench...they are a deeper, more versatile team. I know Denver has their own pinchshiifter in JR Smith, who is pretty one dimensional however...but that pesky little Jet can impact the game in more ways.

Dallas has been truly formidable since the Butler trade...Caron Butler may actually be the best new acquisition of the year...more so than Jamison to Cleveland. Of course seeing Jason Kidd turn back the clock three years in his recent play helps alot.

Baller1
03-02-2010, 11:51 AM
All this Mavericks **** is getting real annoying.

I didn't go and make 30 threads for the Thunder while they were on their 9 game win streak.

I didn't see the Jazz fans making a thread per day while they were on their streak.

This is just getting stupid.

MJ-BULLS
03-02-2010, 11:56 AM
I'm going to have to go with the Denver Nuggets.
But I'll say that the Dallas Mavericks really improved with that recent trade they made for Brendan Haywood and Caron Butler. but I just think that the Nuggets are a little bit better, but by a small margin.

Sadds The Gr8
03-02-2010, 12:44 PM
ill agree with kenny smith in that you cant out-finesse the lakers, but i think the mavs are a hell of a lot more physical now. butlers midrange jumper is the only finesse thing about him. his defense is physical and keeps active hands. haywood brings all kinds of toughness and physicality. we all know deshawn stevenson is physical though he has zero offense. and kidd plays tough d, always has. so what im saying is this isnt the same team as the one before the trade. i think that when kobe called the mavs "legit contenders" he was either being nice and just saying good things about them because he was in dallas for the all star game, or he was hugely understating the fact that this team is now scary good. i think the west comes down to LA and dallas.

Butler is a little bit physical, but it's only on defense, and it won't have a huge effect in wearing the Lakers down...Stevenson most likely won't even be in the rotation in the playoffs, so he's a complete non-factor...Haywood is pretty physical, but he doesn't get the ball alot anyways...and yea Kidd plays pretty good defense, but he isn't a guy that will wear you down. When I say physical, I mean offensively and defensively, not just defensively...even in loose ball situations. The Nuggets have that in 2 beasts in Nene and K-mart who are VERY aggressive and are wearing you down every play. Melo is also physical now with the way he just bullies his way to the basket whether it be by driving or post up. And Billups always uses his size to take advantage of smaller PGs. So yeah, the Mavs did GET more physical, but they still are a finesse team/jump-shooting team, and u can't deny that. They just don't have enough grit and toughness to takedown the Lakers IMO.

masalex1205
03-02-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm going to go w/ the Nuggets after watching the Mavs beat my Moonshiners last night (team formerly known as the Bobcats, trying to make my pitch for the new name.) The Mavs are good but I don't think they're as good as everyone is making them out to be. They have pretty much no depth. Terry is great but he's all they got off the bench. In contrast, Nuggets have Ty Lawson, Birdman, (and sometimes SMith). Depth wins in the playoffs

st3voness
03-02-2010, 03:25 PM
I'm going to go w/ the Nuggets after watching the Mavs beat my Moonshiners last night (team formerly known as the Bobcats, trying to make my pitch for the new name.) The Mavs are good but I don't think they're as good as everyone is making them out to be. They have pretty much no depth. Terry is great but he's all they got off the bench. In contrast, Nuggets have Ty Lawson, Birdman, (and sometimes SMith). Depth wins in the playoffs

Terry, Beaubois, Barea, Stevenson, Dampier.

:facepalm:

BlondeBomber41
03-02-2010, 04:04 PM
Look, I'm a Mavs fan, but right now it has to be Denver. They ended Dallas' season last year, and has given the Mavs problems all year. Denver is deep at a position where Dallas is not... bigs. Even with a healthy Damp, that still only leaves us 2 big men outside of Dirk.

Just let it play out, Dallas could definately beat Denver, but until it happens, Denver is the better team.

The Nuggets bigs are three deep. Nene, Martin, Andersen.

The Mavericks bigs are three deep. Nowitzki, Haywood, Dampier.

I'll take our bigs anyday.

JNA17
03-02-2010, 04:09 PM
All I ask is everyone look at what Mavs fans outside of Mavrix are saying. Don't take his belligerent ignorance as a entire fanbase thing.

you don't have to remind us that but good thing even their own mavs fan says this :laugh2:

AI4MVP
03-02-2010, 04:16 PM
who says both of em cant make the WCF. hahah just kidding lakers fans

leftymo
03-02-2010, 04:17 PM
It's tough, this will actually be a pretty good second round matchup.

As it stands now, I believe Dallas is the #2 seed now. They have a favorable schedule and are currently playing better ball. They would have homecourt advantage which is huge. Their coach is a defensive minded coach and they've bolstered their defense with Haywood in particular.

Denver has more talent, they have the experience, they have guys that have won titles and collectively gone deep into the playoffs. Their record against the elite teams is the most impressive of any team in the NBA. They don't play as good defense, but their are physical and offensively are tough to matchup against.

I voted Denver, but i think the margin is going to get closer and closer. If Denver has HCA, they'll win. If Dallas has HCA, I still think Denver is the favorite, but Dallas probably levels the playing field.

In the end it will boil down to... who is more of a gamer? Dirk or Melo? I'll say Melo.

leftymo
03-02-2010, 04:18 PM
who says both of em cant make the WCF. hahah just kidding lakers fans


its possible, but the laker would have to collapse and lose the #1 seed... can't really see that happening! especially since so many clowns think the lakers are better w/o bryant!

thedfactor
03-02-2010, 05:29 PM
Denver sure receives tons of hype after the Lakers in the media. As a Dallas fan I really do not mind people doubting us, keep the expectations lower. One game at a time.

The trade went well in our favor and Haywood has done wonders for us. Butler is getting going now and Stevenson can play defense against tough players when he's needed. Our bench misses Tim Thomas, but still very legit compared to other contenders.

It's funny how everyone tends to hate on the Mavs, but I'm used to it so it doesn't phase me. Dallas has disappointed for years now and I cannot wait until the playoffs and see if they can do something different, with arguably their most talented team in a long time. No excuses.

J_M_B
03-02-2010, 05:57 PM
I'll give the edge to Denver...

Melo15
03-02-2010, 06:16 PM
I got Denver on this one. Its still too far away to say though as we saw from the Shaq injury anything can happen.

thescore53
03-02-2010, 06:32 PM
can some one post future power rankings 3.0

asmarks18
03-02-2010, 07:43 PM
who says both of em cant make the WCF. hahah just kidding lakers fans

What if Nuggets somehow get the 4 seed and beat the Lakers in the 2nd round. It can happen! Mavs Nuggets WCF!

bahama0811
03-02-2010, 07:47 PM
Denver sure receives tons of hype after the Lakers in the media. As a Dallas fan I really do not mind people doubting us, keep the expectations lower. One game at a time.

The trade went well in our favor and Haywood has done wonders for us. Butler is getting going now and Stevenson can play defense against tough players when he's needed. Our bench misses Tim Thomas, but still very legit compared to other contenders.

It's funny how everyone tends to hate on the Mavs, but I'm used to it so it doesn't phase me. Dallas has disappointed for years now and I cannot wait until the playoffs and see if they can do something different, with arguably their most talented team in a long time. No excuses.

I don't really think that anyone is hating on the Mavs. I think the Mavs have been deservedly getting quite a lot of respect. They really made a great trade and have a hell of a team. However I do think its a little early to say that one trade makes them championship contenders. They've played fewer than 10 games with the newly constructed team. Yes, they've been good but that doesn't mean things couldn't change.

I just think they need to prove a whole lot more than they have before we can say they're legitimate contenders.

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 09:14 PM
What if Nuggets somehow get the 4 seed and beat the Lakers in the 2nd round. It can happen! Mavs Nuggets WCF!

Dude, that would be epic. Move the f--- over Lakers... it's Mavs/Nuggets time... :laugh:

Jason5Kidd5
03-02-2010, 09:17 PM
I'm going to go w/ the Nuggets after watching the Mavs beat my Moonshiners last night (team formerly known as the Bobcats, trying to make my pitch for the new name.) The Mavs are good but I don't think they're as good as everyone is making them out to be. They have pretty much no depth. Terry is great but he's all they got off the bench. In contrast, Nuggets have Ty Lawson, Birdman, (and sometimes SMith). Depth wins in the playoffs

:facepalm:

King Drew
03-02-2010, 09:23 PM
idk i think it could go either way

td0tsfinest
03-02-2010, 09:27 PM
I really like both teams but the addition of Butler and Haywood have made the Mavs real good. I really hope both teams meet up in the conference semis.

GREATNESS ONE
03-02-2010, 09:32 PM
What in the hell are you talking about?

This Nuggets team hasn't even made it to the Finals. Unlike the Mavs who did it some years ago. The problem was Dirk had to much on him. Now there are players to take some pressure off him.

we are talkng about now. This year and last Mavs yes made the finals what 5 years ago. The only reason they didn't win that series is because of some crazy calls.

Don't get me wrong these two teams are very close and very good but as of now I'm taking Denver because of this year and last.

Angel2Maverick
03-02-2010, 09:39 PM
Dallas Mavericks
Dirk dismantled the nuggets so called "tough" defense, so now with the help from haywood, caron, kidd, and terry we can for sure take the nuggets

thedfactor
03-02-2010, 11:36 PM
Really would get interesting if the Nuggets finished behind Dallas and Utah for 4th and ended up facing LA in the second round.

Obviously, both LA and Denver would hate that, and would want to avoid each other until the WCF, with one going through Dallas first.

These playoffs and the rest of the season should be exciting.

drobe86
03-03-2010, 12:20 AM
Dallas would win a series between the two 4-2. Denver has a good team but they are way to inconsistent. I mean they lose to subpar teams that championsip teams just don't lose to night in night out. I like our chances convincingly......

Chronz
03-03-2010, 12:28 AM
Why cant Dallas blow anyone out? Until they do that, they arent a contending team IMO

st3voness
03-03-2010, 12:31 AM
Why cant Dallas blow anyone out? Until they do that, they arent a contending team IMO

Knicks, Rockets twice, Toronto, Indiana, and New Jersey.

This league isn't about blowouts, though .. it's finding a way to win.

nuggetsyankees
03-03-2010, 12:37 AM
the Nuggets have lost all those games just because they don't perform unless there is pressure and it's a big game

rurichie
03-03-2010, 01:04 AM
Mavs

Spurred1
03-03-2010, 02:01 AM
I don't really think that anyone is hating on the Mavs. I think the Mavs have been deservedly getting quite a lot of respect. They really made a great trade and have a hell of a team. However I do think its a little early to say that one trade makes them championship contenders. They've played fewer than 10 games with the newly constructed team. Yes, they've been good but that doesn't mean things couldn't change.

I just think they need to prove a whole lot more than they have before we can say they're legitimate contenders.

I like this response the best. Nobody has any idea of how this Mavs team as a whole will perform in the playoffs. The sample size has shown some promising things-but it is a small sample regardless.
Denver is essentially the same team as last year, and they were terrific in the playoffs-until the Lakers round, if memory serves. Melo seemed to experience trouble in that series.
Dallas had serious problems with Denver in the playoffs.The Mavs, outside of Dirk, were pretty bad overall. Howard wasn't able to do anything, due to injury(again). The rest of the players' performances aren't worth mentioning.
I understand why people are picking Denver.
But I am hoping people are not judging all Mavs fans based on the statements of 1-2 of them.

Spurred1
03-03-2010, 02:02 AM
Why cant Dallas blow anyone out? Until they do that, they arent a contending team IMO

They tend to let the opposing team crawl back into it if they do get a substantial lead. Bench can't sustain the lead over a period of time.

Avenged
03-03-2010, 02:06 AM
I like this response the best. Nobody has any idea of how this Mavs team as a whole will perform in the playoffs. The sample size has shown some promising things-but it is a small sample regardless.
Denver is essentially the same team as last year, and they were terrific in the playoffs-until the Lakers round, if memory serves. Melo seemed to experience trouble in that series.
Dallas had serious problems with Denver in the playoffs.The Mavs, outside of Dirk, were pretty bad overall. Howard wasn't able to do anything, due to injury(again). The rest of the players' performances aren't worth mentioning.
I understand why people are picking Denver.
But I am hoping people are not judging all Mavs fans based on the statements of 1-2 of them.

You are perhaps the only non homer Mavs fan I have come across on PSD lol. :p

Melo4Mvp
03-03-2010, 02:32 AM
Denver beat Dallas in the playoffs last year and untill proven otherwise are the better team

ragee
03-03-2010, 02:33 AM
Wow... People should stop making threads like these! Hahaha... Too much drama! I am a Maverick fan so I am going to pick my team... That being said, the Nuggets are a hell of a team and will be tough to beat in the playoffs... I think the key to both teams in beating the other is defense... It all depends on Marion and K-Mart... Melo and Dirk are two of the best scorers in the league... Both are really hard to control...

I just hope either the Mavs or the Nuggets (i hope the later) drops down to the 4th spot... The Lakers are still the team to beat!!! I think if the Mavs and the Nuggets face each other in the western semis, they will tire each other out making it easier for the Lakers to beat the victor in the WCF!

_KB24_
03-03-2010, 02:38 AM
Wow... People should stop making threads like these! Hahaha... Too much drama! I am a Maverick fan so I am going to pick my team... That being said, the Nuggets are a hell of a team and will be tough to beat in the playoffs... I think the key to both teams in beating the other is defense... It all depends on Marion and K-Mart... Melo and Dirk are two of the best scorers in the league... Both are really hard to control...

I just hope either the Mavs or the Nuggets (i hope the later) drops down to the 4th spot... The Lakers are still the team to beat!!! I think if the Mavs and the Nuggets face each other in the western semis, they will tire each other out making it easier for the Lakers to beat the victor in the WCF!

Just what we want. You guys battle and destroy each other in a hard series, and let the Black Mamba go in for the kill in the WCF. ;)

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 02:39 AM
Give this poll 24 hours, most people are gonna come from the thread I made and pick the Nuggets although they know Dallas has the better chance.

24 hours later and Mavs are up.

Just what I expected.

/end thread

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 02:40 AM
Denver beat Dallas in the playoffs last year and untill proven otherwise are the better team

If we're going by that logic then New Orleans beat Dallas in the playoffs 2 years ago so until proven otherwise they're the better team. :eyebrow:

ko8e24
03-03-2010, 03:05 AM
Dallas Mavericks. Is this even a question.

Nuggets are all talk and mentally weak. They have marshmallows for brain cells. They are mentally soft and mushy.

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 03:12 AM
Dallas Mavericks. Is this even a question.

Nuggets are all talk and mentally weak. They have marshmallows for brain cells. They are mentally soft and mushy.

You're my favorite non Maverick fan on PSD. And it's not because you don't like Denver over Dallas. You actually give great incite in almost all your posts. Wish there were more posters like you on this site.

_KB24_
03-03-2010, 03:18 AM
Dallas Mavericks. Is this even a question.

Nuggets are all talk and mentally weak. They have marshmallows for brain cells. They are mentally soft and mushy.

Lets see, maintaining the second seed for most of the season after dealing with multiple injuries to your two best players/leaders, suspensions, and having your coach diagnosed with cancer is showing how "mentally weak they are".

The Nuggets are as tough as it gets, both physically and mentally. EVERYONE is talking about how this team thinks they can beat any team in the playoffs, anyone. And I believe that they really think that. They handled us a couple times this season, and took us to the brink the last game with Melo getting fouled out with a bogus call. I say they are much more "mentally stronger" than this Mavs team. They go out and beat some great teams, that completely collapse against others. (Losing to the GSW that featured only 8 players in DALLAS!) :speechless:

ko8e24
03-03-2010, 03:24 AM
Lets see, maintaining the second seed for most of the season after dealing with multiple injuries to your two best players/leaders, suspensions, and having your coach diagnosed with cancer is showing how "mentally weak they are".

The Nuggets are as tough as it gets, both physically and mentally. EVERYONE is talking about how this team thinks they can beat any team in the playoffs, anyone. And I believe that they really think that. They handled us a couple times this season, and took us to the brink the last game with Melo getting fouled out with a bogus call. I say they are much more "mentally stronger" than this Mavs team. They go out and beat some great teams, that completely collapse against others. (Losing to the GSW that featured only 8 players in DALLAS!) :speechless:



First of all, my best wishes to George Karl. But we all know that George Karl wasn't doing **** in those Andre Miller, Allen Iverson yrs cuz there was ZERO chemistry between the head coach and the franchise player Carmelo Anthony, which led to a domino effect in the entire team having no chemistry...until they acquired Chauncey Billups.

We all know his play and leadership helped improve and mature Melo, and they got to last yr's WCF. Chauncey Billups is an extension of the head coach. He is basically the general on the floor for the Nuggets.


And the Mavs that lost to the Warriors in 07 is completely different from this team. That team had Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels, Devean George and Josh Howard. All those guys are now gone. You now have guys like Jason Kidd, Brendan Haywood, Deshawn Stevenson, Caron Butler, Tim Thomas and Eduardo Najera as the role players. The 2010 Mavs Role Players are smarter, more expereinced, and overall >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 Mavs role players.

It's unfair to bring up that 07 1st rd vs the Warriors. 2 totally different teams with 2 different head coaches (07-Avery Johnson, 2010-Rick Carlisle)

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 03:25 AM
Lets see, maintaining the second seed for most of the season after dealing with multiple injuries to your two best players/leaders, suspensions, and having your coach diagnosed with cancer is showing how "mentally weak they are".

The Nuggets are as tough as it gets, both physically and mentally. EVERYONE is talking about how this team thinks they can beat any team in the playoffs, anyone. And I believe that they really think that. They handled us a couple times this season, and took us to the brink the last game with Melo getting fouled out with a bogus call. I say they are much more "mentally stronger" than this Mavs team. They go out and beat some great teams, that completely collapse against others. (Losing to the GSW that featured only 8 players in DALLAS!) :speechless:

I'm sorry to break it to you but Dallas was the 2nd seed for a while before Damp got injured causing us to lose a bunch of games because we didn't have another true center. We had to play Gooden at the 5 causing opposing offenses to dominate the paint. Dallas's success starts and finishes at the center position. As long as they have a defensive presence in the paint, they have all the other pieces to beat any team in the league. They finally got that piece in Haywood, and with a healthy Dampier this team could be a serious challenge to not only LA but Cleveland if the team makes the finals.

All this mental, physical, finesse, and soft stuff is extremely overrated. When it comes down to it, the most important thing in winning a championship is defense and Dallas's defense has went from middle of the pack to top tier since the trade.

thedfactor
03-03-2010, 03:28 AM
I like this response the best. Nobody has any idea of how this Mavs team as a whole will perform in the playoffs. The sample size has shown some promising things-but it is a small sample regardless.
Denver is essentially the same team as last year, and they were terrific in the playoffs-until the Lakers round, if memory serves. Melo seemed to experience trouble in that series.
Dallas had serious problems with Denver in the playoffs.The Mavs, outside of Dirk, were pretty bad overall. Howard wasn't able to do anything, due to injury(again). The rest of the players' performances aren't worth mentioning.
I understand why people are picking Denver.
But I am hoping people are not judging all Mavs fans based on the statements of 1-2 of them.You mention how the Denver Nuggets have essentially the same team now as last season. Only big differences is no Kleiza and Jones, but now they have Afflalo and Lawson. Dallas did end up losing in sore fashion 4-1 to Denver, but it had a chance to be tied at 2-2 after games 3 and 4, but yes things went in favor of the Nuggets and the rest is history.

My point is that Dallas team was not that talented at all. You had Dirk who played awesome, Terry was the 6th MOY averaged just 15 per on 39% shooting, an injured Howard, and Kidd was nothing special. That was it.

Dallas could have ended up losing 4-2 even had that game 3 fallen their way, but still that lowly Mavs team won twice against a virtually similar Nuggets team.

Dallas bolstered their starting group and their bench is as strong as anyone's in the league. If anything we should agree the two teams are equal.

ko8e24
03-03-2010, 03:28 AM
But with that being said about Billups...he can only do so much. K-Mart is gonna stay as K-Mart. JR ultimately at the end of the day is goonna be JR. Their cockiness, arrogance, and mental lapse and inconsistent defense as a team will cost them a series against the Mavs.

Nuggets offense and defense of 2009-2010 = Lakers offense and defense of 2007-2008.

Super super super prolific and efficient offense, but inconsistent defense, and not getting stops in key moments or being unable to stop scoring runs of the opposing teams (aka, Celtics 2008 Finals, Lakers could not stop their occasional scoring runs, like Games 2 and 4 of the finals)

_KB24_
03-03-2010, 03:32 AM
First of all, my best wishes to George Karl. But we all know that George Karl wasn't doing **** in those Andre Miller, Allen Iverson yrs cuz there was ZERO chemistry between the head coach and the franchise player Carmelo Anthony, which led to a domino effect in the entire team having no chemistry...until they acquired Chauncey Billups.

We all know his play and leadership helped improve and mature Melo, and they got to last yr's WCF. Chauncey Billups is an extension of the head coach. He is basically the general on the floor for the Nuggets.


And the Mavs that lost to the Warriors in 07 is completely different from this team. That team had Devin Harris, Marquis Daniels, Devean George and Josh Howard. All those guys are now gone. You now have guys like Jason Kidd, Brendan Haywood, Deshawn Stevenson, Caron Butler, Tim Thomas and Eduardo Najera as the role players. The 2010 Mavs Role Players are smarter, more expereinced, and overall >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 Mavs role players.

It's unfair to bring up that 07 1st rd vs the Warriors. 2 totally different teams with 2 different head coaches (07-Avery Johnson, 2010-Rick Carlisle)

I'm talking about this year. They lost to the freaking injured Warriors team that featured 8 players @ home. For god's sake, Radmonovic played the whole game against Dirk! 48 minutes!

ko8e24
03-03-2010, 03:34 AM
I'm talking about this year. They lost to the freaking injured Warriors team that featured 8 players @ home. For god's sake, Radmonovic played the whole game against Dirk! 48 minutes!

and the Lakers lose a game to the Clippers....and almost lost twice to the Sacramento Kings. IT took Kobe to take over in OT at Sactown, and then hit the game winner on New Year's day against Sactown.

_KB24_
03-03-2010, 03:42 AM
and the Lakers lose a game to the Clippers....and almost lost twice to the Sacramento Kings. IT took Kobe to take over in OT at Sactown, and then hit the game winner on New Year's day against Sactown.

You don't lose to one of the worst teams in the league when healthy at home, let alone when their injured and are only playing 8 players against a legitimate contender. If anything, this team can count as "mentally weak", not Denver.

ko8e24
03-03-2010, 03:47 AM
You don't lose to one of the worst teams in the league when healthy at home, let alone when their injured and are only playing 8 players against a legitimate contender. If anything, this team can count as "mentally weak", not Denver.

But the loss to Golden State was before the Butler/Haywood trade, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong on that bro.

Go_NUGGETS
03-03-2010, 03:59 AM
Lets see, maintaining the second seed for most of the season after dealing with multiple injuries to your two best players/leaders, suspensions, and having your coach diagnosed with cancer is showing how "mentally weak they are".

The Nuggets are as tough as it gets, both physically and mentally. EVERYONE is talking about how this team thinks they can beat any team in the playoffs, anyone. And I believe that they really think that. They handled us a couple times this season, and took us to the brink the last game with Melo getting fouled out with a bogus call. I say they are much more "mentally stronger" than this Mavs team. They go out and beat some great teams, that completely collapse against others. (Losing to the GSW that featured only 8 players in DALLAS!) :speechless:


Dam KB24....You seem to be one of the few who actually knows about other teams, besides the Lakers. Props for that.

Spurred1
03-03-2010, 04:13 AM
You mention how the Denver Nuggets have essentially the same team now as last season. Only big differences is no Kleiza and Jones, but now they have Afflalo and Lawson. Dallas did end up losing in sore fashion 4-1 to Denver, but it had a chance to be tied at 2-2 after games 3 and 4, but yes things went in favor of the Nuggets and the rest is history.

My point is that Dallas team was not that talented at all. You had Dirk who played awesome, Terry was the 6th MOY averaged just 15 per on 39% shooting, an injured Howard, and Kidd was nothing special. That was it.

Dallas could have ended up losing 4-2 even had that game 3 fallen their way, but still that lowly Mavs team won twice against a virtually similar Nuggets team.

Dallas bolstered their starting group and their bench is as strong as anyone's in the league. If anything we should agree the two teams are equal.

Dallas did make a major upgrade to the starting lineup...BUT
Problem is, we don't know how healthy that bench actually is. Damp and his knee, Thomas is likely out for the remainder of the season, Najera is a hustler, but isn't a center. There is no third big man to back up the center position right now. Terry can be amazing off the bench, but he is a streak shooter. Roddy is barely played, and while JJB has his moments, he creates some defensive issues on the court-he's little and guys shoot right over him.
Hell, forgot about Kleiza-he's pretty much a non factor anyway. Jones-okay. So Denver made two upgrades with Afflalo and Lawson. I stand corrected.
Roster wise, the teams look really good. But I want to see more of Dallas before agreeing that they are equal.
I'm not trying to be a ***** or anything. I would just like to wait and see some more before making any declarations one way or the other. I love the Mavs, but I'm not going to make insane homeristic statements like so many do about their teams.

_KB24_
03-03-2010, 04:25 AM
But the loss to Golden State was before the Butler/Haywood trade, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong on that bro.

Correct, but it still shows that they are weak mentally. They still had their two best players and their bench. I don't believe that Dallas thinks they can beat any team out there. When they're on top, their great. But they have too many breakdowns. That loss to GSW, was jut atrocious. I mean, your suppose to be a contender, and you lose @ home to a team feautring D-leaguers? Denver has that mental toughness. They know that they can beat any team, any time.

No need to go in circles, good night :D

Jason5Kidd5
03-03-2010, 05:31 AM
Dam KB24....You seem to be one of the few who actually knows about other teams, besides the Lakers. Props for that.

No shiz... this guy is really a Laker fan? I'm humbled. :)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-03-2010, 06:40 AM
Denver, dallas chokes in the playoffs like always

ldawg
03-03-2010, 08:41 AM
simple, Dallas is better Denver is a pretender like the old Mavs and Suns were a few years back. Denver is a great regular season team but when the game slows in the playoffs they will fade. The new Dallas has the tools to play a grind out game Denver don't. Denver only chance is to run and run some more.

Avenged
03-03-2010, 12:23 PM
While I don't think any of those teams are mentally weak, Denver is just more mentally and physically stronger than the Mavs. Doesn't make them better than the Mavs or anything, but you have to agree Denver is a more physical team than the Mavericks.

Chronz
03-03-2010, 12:39 PM
Knicks, Rockets twice, Toronto, Indiana, and New Jersey.

This league isn't about blowouts, though .. it's finding a way to win.
Thats it ? That list is pretty short if you know anything about the league youd know its definitely about blowouts. Finding ways to win close games involves alot of luck, blowing the opposition out involves pure skill. The team with the most blowouts has a better chance of winning the title than the team that has the most wins. There are other factors involved, but since the trade the Mavs have a pretty weak PT Differential.

grantarchy
03-03-2010, 12:39 PM
If the question is who gets the #2 spot, Dallas. If the question is who gets to the WC Finals, Denver.

Chronz
03-03-2010, 12:44 PM
They tend to let the opposing team crawl back into it if they do get a substantial lead. Bench can't sustain the lead over a period of time.
Once Damp gets back the bench should get a boost, the loss of Tim Thomas wont hurt much but he was a guy you could count on for atleast 1 good playoff game. Still if your starting 5 is the one that creates the separation then maximizing that unit will be the main key to your playoff success. That is if they arent burnt out by then.

bahama0811
03-03-2010, 12:48 PM
simple, Dallas is better Denver is a pretender like the old Mavs and Suns were a few years back. Denver is a great regular season team but when the game slows in the playoffs they will fade. The new Dallas has the tools to play a grind out game Denver don't. Denver only chance is to run and run some more.

Yeah, you're right. Nuggets are just a bunch of pretenders who made it to the WCF last year.:rolleyes: You are apparently another person who doesn't watch much basketball.

st3voness
03-03-2010, 01:47 PM
Thats it ? That list is pretty short if you know anything about the league youd know its definitely about blowouts. Finding ways to win close games involves alot of luck, blowing the opposition out involves pure skill. The team with the most blowouts has a better chance of winning the title than the team that has the most wins. There are other factors involved, but since the trade the Mavs have a pretty weak PT Differential.

I couldn't disagree with you more. If you're looking for blowouts come playoffs, you'll be highly disappointed.

The Cavs only have five games of 20+ PT differential .. does that make them not contenders, too?

:laugh2:

ldawg
03-03-2010, 02:32 PM
Yeah, you're right. Nuggets are just a bunch of pretenders who made it to the WCF last year.:rolleyes: You are apparently another person who doesn't watch much basketball. Lakers and who else were good out west last year? running GSW, soft MAVS, injured ROCKETS,OLD INJURED SPURS? did they push any of the Lakers buttons? NO. Did the old high octane Mavs and Suns win any rings after they dominate the nba in regular season? NO. The Denver has something in common with the old Mavs and Suns team, they can only play one style, run this is why big Z was on their radar. The new Mavs if Coached right now has the talent level the play both fast and slow and can contend with the likes of the Lakers,Boston,Cavs and Orlando. include the Mavs and those 5 teams can beat Denver in a 7 game series that is why they are pretenders

Chronz
03-03-2010, 04:30 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. If you're looking for blowouts come playoffs, you'll be highly disappointed.

The Cavs only have five games of 20+ PT differential .. does that make them not contenders, too?

:laugh2:

Thats not what Im saying at all. The team with the better

5 games of +20 is alot, but I never said it had to be +20 to qualify, the Cavs sport the highest PT differential in the league, so your comparison doesnt make sense.

:facepalm:

Skizzik
03-03-2010, 06:29 PM
Thats not what Im saying at all. The team with the better

5 games of +20 is alot, but I never said it had to be +20 to qualify, the Cavs sport the highest PT differential in the league, so your comparison doesnt make sense.

:facepalm:

You seem to forget how healthy the Cavs have been this year. Until Shaq went down a week or so ago (like that really hurt them for the regular season :eyebrow: ), how many games have they lost to important members of that team? Funny how easy it is to correlate their superior point differential to their health.

The Lakers have lost Kobe and Pau for games. The Mavs admittedly only lost Dirk fully for one game, BUT he had that bandage that made his shot just look ugly as hell for well over a month, and we lost Damp (which doesn't sound important until before Haywood, you realize we had no other bigs outside of Dirk (which clearly can't guard centers) which made us give up a huge amount of points in the paint, guess what that affects? Point differential). Denver has lost Billups and Melo for multiple games. And I hardly need to even mention the amount of games to impact players Boston has lost.

Do you really think before you post? Of course Cleveland has the highest point differential. Point differential is a worthless stat in the hands of people like you. You don't think of a single thing outside of just looking at the stat. You don't even think for a second why the teams have the point differential they have outside of assuming a low one means they're bad (not injured, not a different team) and a good one means they're good (which in most cases is very true).

Also, if you want to use post trade point differential, continue to consider we only have a single player who can truly guard the paint healthy (Haywood). Najera lacks size and Dirk lacks physicality. This team will be different when we get Damp back and, if his wife ever gets healthy, Tim Thomas.

Using a blanket formula to explain anything in basketball rarely works, especially when the person using it has no clue to what actually is causing those numbers.

Chronz
03-03-2010, 06:53 PM
You seem to forget how healthy the Cavs have been this year. Until Shaq went down a week or so ago (like that really hurt them for the regular season :eyebrow: ), how many games have they lost to important members of that team? Funny how easy it is to correlate their superior point differential to their health.
Mo Williams ring any bells? Funny how easy it is? You made no effort to quantify anything its not correlation if your not putting in any work identifying their lineups. What would you expect their PT differential to be under any circumstance.


The Lakers have lost Kobe and Pau for games.
Yup, another team with an incredible PT differential. Even with their injuries they CRUSH the Mavs.


The Mavs admittedly only lost Dirk fully for one game, BUT he had that bandage that made his shot just look ugly as hell for well over a month, and we lost Damp (which doesn't sound important until before Haywood, you realize we had no other bigs outside of Dirk (which clearly can't guard centers) which made us give up a huge amount of points in the paint, guess what that affects? Point differential).
Are you just listing injuries or do you eventually plan on quantifying their impact?

For example Portland has missed a ridiculous amount of games from its top 6 players much more than ANY playoff team and they sport a differential higher than the Mavs. So citing injuries as an excuse with no quantifiable data isnt gonna fly.


Denver has lost Billups and Melo for multiple games. And I hardly need to even mention the amount of games to impact players Boston has lost.
lol you really need to mention MORE because thus far you havent said squat. Just hey theres more to be said, well no ****, but from this starting point its a pretty pathetic stance to suggest once Damp comes back the teams PT differential will compare to the teams Im regarding higher than the Mavs.


Do you really think before you post?
Much more than you apparently


Of course Cleveland has the highest point differential. Point differential is a worthless stat in the hands of people like you.
Your clueless, I dont care what you THINK


You don't think of a single thing outside of just looking at the stat.
Then explain why I alluded to the Mavs starting lineup being able to create separation as a crucial aspect. You on the other hand think on incomplete terms.



You don't even think for a second why the teams have the point differential they have outside of assuming a low one means they're bad (not injured, not a different team) and a good one means they're good (which in most cases is very true).

Sounds like you have no idea what your talking about. Im all for open discussion but when you try to use BS excuses I stop caring.


Also, if you want to use post trade point differential, continue to consider we only have a single player who can truly guard the paint healthy (Haywood). Najera lacks size and Dirk lacks physicality. This team will be different when we get Damp back and, if his wife ever gets healthy, Tim Thomas.
I believe Ive already mentioned that. The difference between contending teams and the Mavs is that even with injuries, they dont suffer as much of a dropoff. Then again you thinking Damp = some sort of giant PT differential boost is why your clueless.


Using a blanket formula to explain anything in basketball rarely works, especially when the person using it has no clue to what actually is causing those numbers.
I never said it was the SOLE method genius. In fact I even said there is more to consider, do you ever think lol.

Skizzik
03-03-2010, 08:25 PM
Are you just listing injuries or are you going to quantify their impact?

I did mention the impact, the gash in Dirk's shooting elbow affecting his shot? Oh, sorry, I need to explain in more detail for you. When a jump shooter has an injury on their shooting elbow, this impacts their shot. Shots he makes more often than not, he began to miss more often than make. Is that clear enough?

And on the Dampier end, how you don't seem to understand going from a single big man who can guard bigs in the west to zero...I just can't put in words. Like, what's unclear about that? Zero size versus the Lakers and Denver, which causes huge double digit losses. A great center makes a huge difference in this game. No, Dampier isn't a great center, I'm not even going to call him good, I stated that previous line because everyone knows a great center wins championships. But take a mediocre center like Damp and remove him and have zero center, and tell me how that works out for most teams. Tell me how many teams have won the Finals without a strong, defensive big or set of bigs in the middle over the last 10 years? Shaq, Duncan, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and the mixture of Laker bigs for last year. Having no center hurts. Read about Portland in the next quote.

Finally, note the defensive drop off in the Mavs from the time of Dampier's first injury to the Haywood trade. We went from a top three defensive team (based of defensive efficiency) to somewhere in the teens (and that's on overall, if you take just the time period Damp has missed, we're probably in the bottom five of the league during that span). If you don't understand the impact of losing the only big man on your team that can actually guard anybody, there's clearly no reasoning with you.


For example Portland has missed a ridiculous amount of games from its top 6 players and they sport a differential higher than the Mavs. So citing injuries as an excuse with no quantifiable data isnt gonna fly.

As far as Portland goes, they have more scoring options, the Mavs until the trade had Dirk, Dirk and, oh yeah, Dirk. Terry was abysmal and Howard was a shadow of what he was in '05-'07. It's not hard to shut down a one dimensional team, especially when all they have to do is double and triple team Dirk and force anybody else to shoot. Add in the injury to Dirk affecting his shot and our scoring went down from there.

Terry has woken up since the trade, probably because he gets more looks. Dirk is healed up, no longer sporting a huge brace on his shooting elbow and has more threats (especially Kidd and Butler who have helped spread the offense) and has since started really pouring it on.

Look at Portland before the trade and the Mavs before the trade. Portland had four people scoring in double figures (five if you include Oden before his injury, don't forget he did still play a fourth of the season (21 games)) to the Mavs four, however, being fair, I'll take out Oden. The Mavs had their top four scorers in double figures for a total of 182 games combined. The Blazers had their top four scorers in double figures for a total of 202 games.

That's right, despite what you were trying to get at, their double digit scorers have played more games than ours. Add in Oden and all it will do is add another 21 games played of them having ANOTHER double digit scorer before the trade. You can talk about how many games they've missed their top 6, but apparently, as far as scorers go, they haven't missed scorers as badly as the Mavs.


Then explain why I alluded to the Mavs starting lineup being able to create separation as a crucial aspect. You on the other hand think on incomplete terms.

That's flawed though, because part of the reason our point differential is so bad is because of our bench. We were up 25 on New Orleans and we started dropping that lead because of our bench and resting Shawn Marion. We were up 22 over Indiana and it wasn't our starters resting on the bench giving up a large chunk of that lead letting Indiana come to within 9. In that New Orleans game, Collison shot a worthless 3 that went in that narrowed our scoring margin but left them still three possessions short of the lead.

I apologize, I can't remember the exact game, but one game, we let them drop in like 6 easy points in the last half a minute while we iced the game at the line, trying to just let it end. The game was over, they just kept putting in layups and then fouling us. Sure, I'll give you that we could have stopped them and ended the game that way, but it's one of those, you'd figure some people would realize it's pointless. Baskets like that count against point differential, but it hardly matters towards the win, especially in cases like that where the game was over, it was just a formality of when.

Chronz
03-03-2010, 08:56 PM
I did mention the impact, the gash in Dirk's shooting elbow affecting his shot? Oh, sorry, I need to explain in more detail for you. When a jump shooter has an injury on their shooting elbow, this impacts their shot. Shots he makes more often than not, he began to miss more often than make. Is that clear enough?
Just as I suspected, your not even going to try. Your sidestepping the real issue, that teams that suffer injuries can sustain it, the Mavs cant.


And on the Dampier end, how you don't seem to understand going from a single big man who can guard bigs in the west to zero...I just can't put in words. Like, what's unclear about that? Zero size versus the Lakers and Denver, which causes huge double digit losses. A great center makes a huge difference in this game. No, Dampier isn't a great center, I'm not even going to call him good, I stated that previous line because everyone knows a great center wins championships. But take a mediocre center like Damp and remove him and have zero center, and tell me how that works out for most teams. Tell me how many teams have won the Finals without a strong, defensive big or set of bigs in the middle over the last 10 years? Shaq, Duncan, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and the mixture of Laker bigs for last year. Having no center hurts. Read about Portland in the next quote.
LOL if Dampier is so invaluable to your teams success then your proving my point of how you cant compare to the truly elite. Read about Portland in my previous post as to why your excuses dont fly.


Finally, note the defensive drop off in the Mavs from the time of Dampier's first injury to the Haywood trade. We went from a top three defensive team (based of defensive efficiency) to somewhere in the teens (and that's on overall, if you take just the time period Damp has missed, we're probably in the bottom five of the league during that span). If you don't understand the impact of losing the only big man on your team that can actually guard anybody, there's clearly no reasoning with you.
Throughout the year their PT differential and SRS hasnt been impressive nice try with isolating one side of the ball, that said I dont recall the Mavs being top 3 defensively but Ill take your word for it. Do you know what their defensive efficiency was?


As far as Portland goes, they have more scoring options, the Mavs until the trade had Dirk, Dirk and, oh yeah, Dirk. Terry was abysmal and Howard was a shadow of what he was in '05-'07. It's not hard to shut down a one dimensional team, especially when all they have to do is double and triple team Dirk and force anybody else to shoot. Add in the injury to Dirk affecting his shot and our scoring went down from there.
Which is precisely why your team isnt contending material. If even the most banged up team in the league has more ability to sustain the losses then its not a great sign for the future.


Terry has woken up since the trade, probably because he gets more looks. Dirk is healed up, no longer sporting a huge brace on his shooting elbow and has more threats (especially Kidd and Butler who have helped spread the offense) and has since started really pouring it on.
Really pouring it on, F YEAH.


Look at Portland before the trade and the Mavs before the trade. Portland had four people scoring in double figures (five if you include Oden before his injury, don't forget he did still play a fourth of the season (21 games)) to the Mavs four, however, being fair, I'll take out Oden. The Mavs had their top four scorers in double figures for a total of 182 games combined. The Blazers had their top four scorers in double figures for a total of 202 games.
Exactly, theyve suffered far more significant losses than any playoff team in the West and still sport a similar differential. The fact that they reached double figures is why they are a comparable team. Imagine if they were completely healthy and if Roy never played with injuries.


That's right, despite what you were trying to get at, their double digit scorers have played more games than ours.
Which is why your analysis is flawed, your using double digit scorers in specific games, Im mentioning their top rotational players PERIOD.


Add in Oden and all it will do is add another 21 games played of them having ANOTHER double digit scorer before the trade. You can talk about how many games they've missed their top 6, but apparently, as far as scorers go, they haven't missed scorers as badly as the Mavs.
Thus proving the Mavs arent contending material, they have no one to step up and when they have their full assortment of players they dont compare to the elite teams when they have their full assortment.



That's flawed though, because part of the reason our point differential is so bad is because of our bench. We were up 25 on New Orleans and we started dropping that lead because of our bench and resting Shawn Marion. We were up 22 over Indiana and it wasn't our starters resting on the bench giving up a large chunk of that lead letting Indiana come to within 9. In that New Orleans game, Collison shot a worthless 3 that went in that narrowed our scoring margin but left them still three possessions short of the lead.

I apologize, I can't remember the exact game, but one game, we let them drop in like 6 easy points in the last half a minute while we iced the game at the line, trying to just let it end. The game was over, they just kept putting in layups and then fouling us. Sure, I'll give you that we could have stopped them and ended the game that way, but it's one of those, you'd figure some people would realize it's pointless. Baskets like that count against point differential, but it hardly matters towards the win, especially in cases like that where the game was over, it was just a formality of when.
You have no idea how often that happens for every OTHER team in the league. The difference is they get more blowouts in their favor and rack up the W's far before it gets to crunch time.

PS I love how you skipped pretty much my entire post.

Skizzik
03-03-2010, 09:22 PM
Just as I suspected, your not even going to try. Your sidestepping the real issue, that teams that suffer injuries can sustain it, the Mavs cant.

I'm not side stepping the issue at all, you specifically reasoned that I didn't make a point with how injuries affected our team when I did. You just were trying to state something different, in this case and the following, it's basically: the Mavs can't win if they have injuries. If that's what you're getting at, I will agree whole heartedly. We don't have anyone to step up. And mostly agree with the following parts of your post:


LOL if Dampier is so invaluable to your teams success then your proving my point of how you cant compare to the truly elite. Read about Portland in my previous post as to why your excuses dont fly.


Throughout the year their PT differential and SRS hasnt been impressive.


Which is precisely why your team isnt contending material. If even the most banged up team in the league has more ability to sustain the losses then its not a great sign for the future.

Minus the last one. They don't have a better ability to sustain losses, they're the 8th seed right now, we're the 2. Better point differential doesn't mean anything when you're talking about the difference of 6 seeds.


Exactly, theyve suffered far more significant losses than any playoff team in the West and still sport a similar differential. The fact that they reached double figures is why they are a comparable team. Imagine if they were completely healthy and if Roy never played with injuries.


Which is why your analysis is flawed, your using double digit scorers in specific games, Im mentioning their top rotational players PERIOD.

But when your offense is struggling, specifically, as I mentioned about being one dimensional with Dirk (note, this was BEFORE the trade), then double digit scorers are important. When your only two scorers are an injured jump shooter (no, I'm not saying we're the only injured team, I'm just explaining our pitiful offense) and Terry, who has been so streaky, it's just pathetic at times, he flat out occasionally forgets how to shoot, then double digit scorers matter. There's no way to take pressure off Dirk when your number two can't score.



Thus proving the Mavs arent contending material, they have no one to step up.

I agree, if they had no one to step up. Before the trade deadline, this team was going backwards, losing games and on it's way to a bottom four seed and maybe even a first round exit. All of that was because we had no one to step up. But the number of possible players to step up has increased and unlike talking about the what ifs in Portland, Damp is on pace to get healthy and thus, we won't have what ifs come playoff time (I hope) and can just settle this all on the court.

It sucks for Portland, it really does, but the point is, you talk about their differential and them being better than the Mavs, but despite that, they're 5 games behind us fighting to hold on to the eighth seed and we're fighting for the second. Just more proof of the flaw of point differential.





You have no idea how often that happens for every OTHER team in the league. The difference is they get more blowouts in their favor and rack up the W's far before it gets to crunch time.

You have no idea how often it happens for the rest of the league either, I'm sure. I'm just pointing out cases where point differential are flawed. And specifically, I was pointing out your flawed comment that our starters don't get it done. Our starts over this streak in several games have pulled away, only to have our bench give up a large portion of the lead. Our bench is weak, I won't deny it. We're a 7 player deep team when Damp is healthy (of players I'd trust), maybe 8. But of the bench players, nearly every one of them has a flaw:
Terry - No defense, can occasionally lose his shot.
Damp - Too soft, injury prone this year, gets bullied by people who want it more (see: 2006 Finals - Shaq).
Najera - Too small to play center like we continually ask of him, no offense.

I don't trust Barea, he can occasionally get hot, but he can't hardly guard most players for the life of him and most of the times, his offense is non-existent. And Roddy is turnover prone and a rookie, he won't see much play time in the playoffs, if any.

My arguments were mostly against your idea that point differential matters as much as you seem to make of it. But if we have 4 of our 5 main guys going, we can beat any team on any night (not that we will), blowouts have nothing to do with that. And it's far too early to judge our point differential with our current lineup, since when Damp returns, that will shift Najera to the 4 and with Damp as the backup 5, it can change things drastically. This hasn't been a complete team since the trade deadline and thus, point differential is very flawed here.


PS I love how you skipped pretty much my entire post.
Most of your post was restating things and quotes like:
"Sounds like you have no idea what your talking about. Im all for open discussion but when you try to use BS excuses I stop caring."
"Much more than you apparently"
Sorry that I didn't reply to every single one. I replied to things that actually were worth taking time to reply to. Then you went back and edited a large number of your posts, making some more relevant, but still after the fact.

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 09:34 PM
Thats it ? That list is pretty short if you know anything about the league youd know its definitely about blowouts. Finding ways to win close games involves alot of luck, blowing the opposition out involves pure skill. The team with the most blowouts has a better chance of winning the title than the team that has the most wins. There are other factors involved, but since the trade the Mavs have a pretty weak PT Differential.

What constitutes a blowout? Dallas blew out the Lakers by 14 early in the season.

DenButsu
03-03-2010, 09:37 PM
24 hours later and Mavs are up.

Just what I expected.

/end thread

Really tough to call Denver losing the 4th game in 5 on the road @Phoenix and Dallas beating N.O. at home. Went way out on a limb there. :rolleyes:

Chronz
03-03-2010, 09:37 PM
I'm not side stepping the issue at all, you specifically reasoned that I didn't make a point with how injuries affected our team when I did. You just were trying to state something different, in this case and the following, it's basically: the Mavs can't win if they have injuries. If that's what you're getting at, I will agree whole heartedly. We don't have anyone to step up. And mostly agree with the following parts of your post:
Your not really understanding me then, your saying the Mavs suffered injury thus effecting their PT differential. What I was looking for was some way of quantifying those absences relative to the league. The Mavs arent the only team suffering injuries, and none of the other top teams seem to suffer as much as the Mavs. For example, the teams with the least amount of injuries to their top rotational players are the Thunder and Grizzlies, (2 surprise teams). The Nuggets are downright unbeatable when they have their starting 5 intact, same with the Lakers, Celtics. Yet none of these teams suffer the way the Mavs do, despite losing pieces far superior to Dampier.

I was hoping you would give some insight as to what the Mavs differential should be barring injuries since your so gung ho that its not a fair barometer for the team.



But when your offense is struggling, specifically, as I mentioned about being one dimensional with Dirk (note, this was BEFORE the trade), then double digit scorers are important. When your only two scorers are an injured jump shooter (no, I'm not saying we're the only injured team, I'm just explaining our pitiful offense) and Terry, who has been so streaky, it's just pathetic at times, he flat out occasionally forgets how to shoot, then double digit scorers matter. There's no way to take pressure off Dirk when your number two can't score.
The fact that your team is pathetic isnt helping your argument. How come the truly elite teams dont look so pathetic when their players are missing?



I agree, if they had no one to step up. Before the trade deadline, this team was going backwards, losing games and on it's way to a bottom four seed and maybe even a first round exit. All of that was because we had no one to step up. But the number of possible players to step up has increased and unlike talking about the what ifs in Portland, Damp is on pace to get healthy and thus, we won't have what ifs come playoff time (I hope) and can just settle this all on the court.

I do not doubt that the team has room for improvement, Im only saying they arent at the level of PROVEN threats. And that PT differential gos a long way in proving their level of play.


It sucks for Portland, it really does, but the point is, you talk about their differential and them being better than the Mavs, but despite that, they're 5 games behind us fighting to hold on to the eighth seed and we're fighting for the second. Just more proof of the flaw of point differential.
How is it a flaw?




My arguments were mostly against your idea that point differential matters as much as you seem to make of it.
From everything youve said I just think you dont understand it. Its more relevant than Win-Loss tallies overall. Thats all I was saying. If you guys end up with the #2 seed sporting that PT differential, then Ill take just about every team in the league with the better PT differential excluding the Blazers.


But if we have 4 of our 5 main guys going, we can beat any team on any night (not that we will),
Any team can beat any team given those requirements. To me thats the equivalent of saying we can beat any team so long as we outscore them.


blowouts have nothing to do with that.
If your team is consistently winning in dominant fashion and losing an inordinate amount of close games, then your a better team than the one that is barely scraping by even if they have a better record. Thats the starting point to any analysis and my point in a nutshell


And it's far too early to judge our point differential with our current lineup, since when Damp returns, that will shift Najera to the 4 and with Damp as the backup 5, it can change things drastically. This hasn't been a complete team since the trade deadline and thus, point differential is very flawed here.
Your exaggerating the impact Dampier has. The Mavs arent the only team that can make those claims, but they are the only team that has to rely on those excuses.

goose15
03-03-2010, 09:38 PM
very close

I'll take Denver in 7

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 09:41 PM
Really tough to call Denver losing the 4th game in 5 on the road @Phoenix and Dallas beating N.O. at home. Went way out on a limb there. :rolleyes:

Since the All Star break the Nuggets are 4-3, Dallas is 8-1.

Convo over.

jimbobjarree
03-03-2010, 09:46 PM
Denver had this last season, Denver had this this season even with Marion, and Denver still has this right now.

I will admit I'd love to see this series (would mean its at the cost of a possible Utah-Lakers match up 2nd round though :() I still think Denver are too strong. Do you guys play each other before the playoffs?

Chronz
03-03-2010, 09:47 PM
Since the All Star break the Nuggets are 4-3, Dallas is 8-1.

Convo over.

What was their SOS and PT differential in that span?

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 09:51 PM
What was their SOS and PT differential in that span?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dallas+mavericks+schedule

DenButsu
03-03-2010, 09:52 PM
What constitutes a blowout? Dallas blew out the Lakers by 14 early in the season.

One measurement of "blowout-ness" over a season is the difference between own and opponent points over the entire season.

Here are the top 12 teams in the league in point differentials:


PPG OPPG PDIFF
1 Cleveland 102.5 95.2 7.3
2 LA Lakers 102.9 96.1 6.8
3 Orlando 101.5 95.7 5.8
4 Denver 106.9 102.1 4.8
Utah 102.4 97.6 4.8
6 Atlanta 101.7 97.2 4.5
7 Boston 98.6 94.3 4.3
8 San Antonio 100.8 96.7 4.1
9 Oklahoma City 99.7 96.2 3.5
10 Phoenix 109.2 106 3.2
11 Portland 97.8 95.2 2.6
12 Dallas 100.8 98.6 2.2

Another slightly different but not unrelated way to measure things up is the difference between offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency teams have (you'll notice a high correlation here with the ppg numbers):


OEFF DEFF EDIFF
1 Cleveland 112 104 8
2 LA Lakers 108.7 101.6 7.1
3 Orlando 109.5 103.2 6.3
4 Utah 109.7 104.5 5.2
5 Denver 111.5 106.5 5
6 Atlanta 110.9 106 4.9
7 Boston 106.9 102.3 4.6
San Antonio 109.4 104.8 4.6
9 Oklahoma City 106.5 102.8 3.7
10 Phoenix 113.7 110.4 3.3
11 Portland 110.1 107.1 3
12 Dallas 108.2 105.8 2.4

In fact, the only switch up there is between Denver and Utah, which I assume is a function of the Nuggets playing at a faster pace (96.9 - 3rd in the league) than the Jazz (93.1 - 13th in the league), which inflates Denver's ppg numbers.

DenButsu
03-03-2010, 09:55 PM
What was their SOS and PT differential in that span?

Denver's Feb sched was a mofo. Lakers twice, Cavs once... I thnk the ratio of +.500 teams to losing teams was like 3:1 or so. Pretty brutal, and it ended w/ a 4-in-5 that ended with a 2-game roadie @ LAL & PHX (both losses). Also throw some various injuries here and there in the mix.

Mavrix
03-03-2010, 09:57 PM
One measurement of "blowout-ness" over a season is the difference between own and opponent points over the entire season.

Here are the top 12 teams in the league in point differentials:


PPG OPPG PDIFF
1 Cleveland 102.5 95.2 7.3
2 LA Lakers 102.9 96.1 6.8
3 Orlando 101.5 95.7 5.8
4 Denver 106.9 102.1 4.8
Utah 102.4 97.6 4.8
6 Atlanta 101.7 97.2 4.5
7 Boston 98.6 94.3 4.3
8 San Antonio 100.8 96.7 4.1
9 Oklahoma City 99.7 96.2 3.5
10 Phoenix 109.2 106 3.2
11 Portland 97.8 95.2 2.6
12 Dallas 100.8 98.6 2.2

Another slightly different but not unrelated way to measure things up is the difference between offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency teams have (you'll notice a high correlation here with the ppg numbers):


OEFF DEFF EDIFF
1 Cleveland 112 104 8
2 LA Lakers 108.7 101.6 7.1
3 Orlando 109.5 103.2 6.3
4 Utah 109.7 104.5 5.2
5 Denver 111.5 106.5 5
6 Atlanta 110.9 106 4.9
7 Boston 106.9 102.3 4.6
San Antonio 109.4 104.8 4.6
9 Oklahoma City 106.5 102.8 3.7
10 Phoenix 113.7 110.4 3.3
11 Portland 110.1 107.1 3
12 Dallas 108.2 105.8 2.4

In fact, the only switch up there is between Denver and Utah, which I assume is a function of the Nuggets playing at a faster pace (96.9 - 3rd in the league) than the Jazz (93.1 - 13th in the league), which inflates Denver's ppg numbers.

Is that data for the games ONLY played after the all star game? Other wise it's irrelevant.

DenButsu
03-03-2010, 10:01 PM
Is that data for the games ONLY played after the all star game? Other wise it's irrelevant.

Nope, it's for the whole season.

You should have asked a more specific question if you wanted a more specific answer. :p

If you're interested in doing so, though, it would be easy enough to either find or calculate the post-ASG point differential splits.

DenButsu
03-03-2010, 10:03 PM
^Although, in Denver's case, numbers for the entire season are fine, because no changes have been made to the team.

Do you really feel that the Mavs are so completely different a team now that the first half of the season counts for absolutely nothing? I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Chronz
03-03-2010, 10:05 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dallas+mavericks+schedule

im not gonna lie that was pretty awesome

Chronz
03-03-2010, 10:09 PM
^Although, in Denver's case, numbers for the entire season are fine, because no changes have been made to the team.

Do you really feel that the Mavs are so completely different a team now that the first half of the season counts for absolutely nothing? I think that's a bit of a stretch.

their pt differential since the trade isnt better than the top teams and its not like theyve been facing world beaters aside from the Lakers IIRC, but Mavs fans will say its because Damp isnt around even though just about every team has sustained some kind of injury to players much more important than him.

Skizzik
03-03-2010, 10:12 PM
Your not really understanding me then, your saying the Mavs suffered injury thus effecting their PT differential. What I was looking for was some way of quantifying those absences relative to the league. The Mavs arent the only team suffering injuries, and none of the other top teams seem to suffer as much as the Mavs. For example, the teams with the least amount of injuries to their top rotational players are the Thunder and Grizzlies, (2 surprise teams). The Nuggets are downright unbeatable when they have their starting 5 intact, same with the Lakers, Celtics. Yet none of these teams suffer the way the Mavs do, despite losing pieces far superior to Dampier.

I was hoping you would give some insight as to what the Mavs differential should be barring injuries since your so gung ho that its not a fair barometer for the team.

I'm not looking for fair, I said it's flawed. No matter what you want to make of it, Portland has a better point differential, but is 5 games back of us. Suggesting Portland (as they currently are) would beat the Mavs in a 7 game series if you really think it's as important as you make it out to be. But I'm pretty sure, most people agree that's not the case. In fact, I bet even John Hollinger (about the biggest supporter of point differential I've ever seen) would point out that there's cases in which teams have gone deep in to, and maybe even won the title, with a lower point differential than teams they've knocked off. Hell, look at the '06-'07 Mavs, their point differential was +7.4 and the Warriors were -0.4, they still knocked off the Mavs. And their point differential didn't make a difference in that series.



The fact that your team is pathetic isnt helping your argument. How come the truly elite teams dont look so pathetic when their players are missing?

Probably because none of them lost their centers in a league dominated by elite teams with good centers? (Just guessing here). Lakers - tons of bigs, Cleveland - Shaq, Orlando - Howard, etc. On top of that, look at the other team that lost their main big: Boston. Boston went from championship contender last year, to losing in the second round last year, why? They didn't have Garnett. I really think you don't give enough credit to how important bigs are. But, that's MY personal opinion, I'm not gonna state it as fact, just asking you to notice the correlation.




I do not doubt that the team has room for improvement, Im only saying they arent at the level of PROVEN threats. And that PT differential gos a long way in proving their level of play.

I question how you can only use PTD as the base of your argument here. When during their stretch since the all-star break and specifically the trade, they have beat Orlando on the road and the Lakers in Dallas. The only argument you can make is to say it doesn't matter and that those teams didn't give it their all, etc. But judging by the look on Kobe's and Phil's faces and the fact Bynum got fined for his bashing of officials he was so upset, it suggests that at least the Lakers did care. This team changes lineups and wins two games in two tries over two other teams considered to be the elite. I just don't see how you can call them unproven.

Now, if you want to argue about the favorites? That's fine. I agree, they aren't favorites now and nothing they do before the playoffs will make them favorites. But I can't disagree with you more about them being unproven, they came out of the gate in the second half and have done nearly everything they could possibly do to prove themselves.


How is it a flaw?

Because you're preaching the importance of point differential and this is a case that shows a team with a worse differential having a better record than the team with the better differential. Which kind of shows at least some level of flaw in the importance of point differential. It is the exception, I'll agree, but it does prove that you can be better than where your differential ranks you.


From everything youve said I just think you dont understand it. Its more relevant than Win-Loss tallies overall. Thats all I was saying. If you guys end up with the #2 seed sporting that PT differential, then Ill take just about every team in the league with the better PT differential excluding the Blazers.

And that's fine, I'll let you pick based on PTD. If that's what you go off, I clearly won't change your mind with a magical post that makes you look at it from some other way.

But for the sake of my argument versus point differential:
Best team in '08-'09? Cleveland, they didn't make the Finals.
'05-'06? San Antonio, didn't even make it out of the second round. (Miami was 5th)
'03-'04? San Antonio, didn't make the Finals.
Etc, I could go on all day listing the times the best team PTD wise didn't even see the Finals.



Any team can beat any team given those requirements. To me thats the equivalent of saying we can beat any team so long as we outscore them.

I beg to differ. If you give an equal ground and say every team has 4 starters play at 100% for every game in the scenario, you know most teams wouldn't be better than the handful of teams that have a chance at a title. The 4 starters at 100% for the Nets couldn't beat 4 starters at 100% for nearly any team in the NBA. So saying it as a blanket statement that any team could beat any team given that, you know it's not true.



If your team is consistently winning in dominant fashion and losing an inordinate amount of close games, then your a better team than the one that is barely scraping by even if they have a better record. Thats the starting point to any analysis and my point in a nutshell

But see, it's your point, but it isn't 100% fact. Which is what I'm getting at. I'm not arguing that more times than not it will be correct. But you know that the best team on paper doesn't always win.



Your exaggerating the impact Dampier has. The Mavs arent the only team that can make those claims, but they are the only team that has to rely on those excuses.

I will reiterate my OPINION here, that a big is utterly crucial to winning in this year's NBA. And the value of Dampier on this team had never been higher, since even when he had been missing in the past, we always had a second center (no matter how good) until this year. Portland does have a better argument than us about the pain of no bigs, but as you can see, not having bigs have impacted their record too. Most people expected them to at least make a showing in the title talk this year, but they lose both bigs and now they're praying to stay in the playoffs. Do you still think bigs don't matter?

Raph12
03-03-2010, 11:25 PM
Nuggets

ldawg
03-03-2010, 11:27 PM
What is strong and tuff about Denver the thuggs, their tatoos? This team don't play great defense. Why people around here think they a hell to beat?

DenButsu
03-03-2010, 11:40 PM
What is strong and tuff about Denver the thuggs, their tatoos? This team don't play great defense. Why people around here think they a hell to beat?

Thuggets. If you're gonna try to do a lame dis, at least get it right. Sheesh.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 02:04 AM
I'm not looking for fair, I said it's flawed. No matter what you want to make of it, Portland has a better point differential, but is 5 games back of us. Suggesting Portland (as they currently are) would beat the Mavs in a 7 game series if you really think it's as important as you make it out to be. But I'm pretty sure, most people agree that's not the case. In fact, I bet even John Hollinger (about the biggest supporter of point differential I've ever seen) would point out that there's cases in which teams have gone deep in to, and maybe even won the title, with a lower point differential than teams they've knocked off. Hell, look at the '06-'07 Mavs, their point differential was +7.4 and the Warriors were -0.4, they still knocked off the Mavs. And their point differential didn't make a difference in that series.
Neither did their superior win-loss record. Whats your point? My point is that PT differential is more telling than raw win-loss tallies, and the evidence backs it up, more telling is when you contextualize their ratings down to the teams available players.

Speaking of Hollinger he has an article about why the Mavs record since the trade isnt as great as it seems.



Probably because none of them lost their centers in a league dominated by elite teams with good centers? (Just guessing here).
LOL stop guessing, they lost players far superior to Dampier.


Lakers - tons of bigs, Cleveland - Shaq, Orlando - Howard, etc.
Lakers lost Pau, Bynum, Kobe and never faltered as badly. Why? Because they are elite. Cleveland lost Shaq/Mo/Delonte. Orlando has the depth to withstand losses.


On top of that, look at the other team that lost their main big: Boston. Boston went from championship contender last year, to losing in the second round last year, why? They didn't have Garnett. I really think you don't give enough credit to how important bigs are.
Yes because classifying Dampier as a big puts him on the same level of importance as KG. I take it your saying the Celtics wouldve won the title had they lost Pierce.


But, that's MY personal opinion, I'm not gonna state it as fact, just asking you to notice the correlation.
The only correlation I see is that you have no idea what Im saying. Like ever



I question how you can only use PTD as the base of your argument here. When during their stretch since the all-star break and specifically the trade, they have beat Orlando on the road and the Lakers in Dallas. The only argument you can make is to say it doesn't matter and that those teams didn't give it their all, etc. But judging by the look on Kobe's and Phil's faces and the fact Bynum got fined for his bashing of officials he was so upset, it suggests that at least the Lakers did care.
LMFAO did you just make up my excuse for me and then rebuff it yourself? Do you strive to waste both our time? Since the trade their PT differential isnt very impressive, again Im comparing the Mavs to the Nuggets.


This team changes lineups and wins two games in two tries over two other teams considered to be the elite. I just don't see how you can call them unproven.
Dont worry youll find out soon enough.


Now, if you want to argue about the favorites? That's fine. I agree, they aren't favorites now and nothing they do before the playoffs will make them favorites. But I can't disagree with you more about them being unproven, they came out of the gate in the second half and have done nearly everything they could possibly do to prove themselves.
Thats whats so alarming, this is them trying and Ive yet to see them post raise their PT differential to the levels of ELITE teams.



Because you're preaching the importance of point differential and this is a case that shows a team with a worse differential having a better record than the team with the better differential. Which kind of shows at least some level of flaw in the importance of point differential.
Nope it only exposes you as clueless. Let me explain it again, overall PT differential is a better indicator of a teams ability than win-loss record. Now again, how is it a flaw?


It is the exception, I'll agree, but it does prove that you can be better than where your differential ranks you.
Not sure what your arguing here.



And that's fine, I'll let you pick based on PTD. If that's what you go off, I clearly won't change your mind with a magical post that makes you look at it from some other way.
Considering its history your post definitely aint gonna change my mind.


But for the sake of my argument versus point differential:
Best team in '08-'09? Cleveland, they didn't make the Finals.
They also had the best record in the league


'05-'06? San Antonio, didn't even make it out of the second round. (Miami was 5th)
Miami also didnt have the best record


'03-'04? San Antonio, didn't make the Finals.
Etc, I could go on all day listing the times the best team PTD wise didn't even see the Finals.
LOL you really want to go down this path? You could do the exact same thing for W/L tallies, the difference being PT differential is more telling, and when contextualized to the ability of the teams core players and a few mitigating factors it proves much more telling.



I beg to differ. If you give an equal ground and say every team has 4 starters play at 100% for every game in the scenario, you know most teams wouldn't be better than the handful of teams that have a chance at a title. The 4 starters at 100% for the Nets couldn't beat 4 starters at 100% for nearly any team in the NBA. So saying it as a blanket statement that any team could beat any team given that, you know it's not true.

Any good team can make that claim



But see, it's your point, but it isn't 100% fact. Which is what I'm getting at. I'm not arguing that more times than not it will be correct. But you know that the best team on paper doesn't always win.
Someone stop the presses



I will reiterate my OPINION here, that a big is utterly crucial to winning in this year's NBA. And the value of Dampier on this team had never been higher, since even when he had been missing in the past, we always had a second center (no matter how good) until this year. Portland does have a better argument than us about the pain of no bigs, but as you can see, not having bigs have impacted their record too. Most people expected them to at least make a showing in the title talk this year, but they lose both bigs and now they're praying to stay in the playoffs. Do you still think bigs don't matter?

Where did I say Bigs dont matter? I said teams have lost far more important players than Dampier and never struggled the way the Mavs have.

JJ_JKidd
03-04-2010, 02:38 AM
Ok, I'm getting sick of Mavs fans the past couple of days with their logic. Make this simple and plain. Post who you think is a better team and has the better shot of reaching the WCF.

Better shot:

1. Most healthy

2. Most favorable match ups in the playoffs

Skizzik
03-04-2010, 03:17 AM
Neither did their superior win-loss record. Whats your point? My point is that PT differential is more telling than raw win-loss tallies, and the evidence backs it up, more telling is when you contextualize their ratings down to the teams available players.

Speaking of Hollinger he has an article about why the Mavs record since the trade isnt as great as it seems.



LOL stop guessing, they lost players far superior to Dampier.


Lakers lost Pau, Bynum, Kobe and never faltered as badly. Why? Because they are elite. Cleveland lost Shaq/Mo/Delonte. Orlando has the depth to withstand losses.


Yes because classifying Dampier as a big puts him on the same level of importance as KG. I take it your saying the Celtics wouldve won the title had they lost Pierce.


The only correlation I see is that you have no idea what Im saying. Like ever



LMFAO did you just make up my excuse for me and then rebuff it yourself? Do you strive to waste both our time? Since the trade their PT differential isnt very impressive, again Im comparing the Mavs to the Nuggets.


Dont worry youll find out soon enough.


Thats whats so alarming, this is them trying and Ive yet to see them post raise their PT differential to the levels of ELITE teams.



Nope it only exposes you as clueless. Let me explain it again, overall PT differential is a better indicator of a teams ability than win-loss record. Now again, how is it a flaw?


Not sure what your arguing here.



Considering its history your post definitely aint gonna change my mind.


They also had the best record in the league


Miami also didnt have the best record


LOL you really want to go down this path? You could do the exact same thing for W/L tallies, the difference being PT differential is more telling, and when contextualized to the ability of the teams core players and a few mitigating factors it proves much more telling.



Any good team can make that claim


Someone stop the presses



Where did I say Bigs dont matter? I said teams have lost far more important players than Dampier and never struggled the way the Mavs have.

Honestly, I'm not going to sit and argue each individual point. Why? Because you change your argument. Case in point, you point out how Portland has a better differential and worse record, then change your attack when I mention a case with a better differential and better record loses. I can't win, because you're basically just preaching, PTD wins, that's it. Both of those cases are places where PTD shows it's flaws.

On top of that, you CLEARLY didn't read the Hollinger post, I mean, calling me clueless when you can't read is impressive:
You: "LMFAO did you just make up my excuse for me and then rebuff it yourself? Do you strive to waste both our time? Since the trade their PT differential isnt very impressive, again Im comparing the Mavs to the Nuggets."

John Hollinger: "Look a little deeper, however, and the Mavs' résumé isn't nearly as impressive. They have gone 8-1 since their trade with Washington on Feb. 13, but they have outscored their opposition by only 5.3 points per game during that time. In other words, during their best stretch of the season, they still haven't matched the scoring margin of elite teams such as the Cavs (plus-7.3), Lakers (plus-6.4) and Magic (plus-5.8), and they barely exceed the marks of the Celtics, Hawks, Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs."

So wait...you're comparing them to the Nuggets...yet, they've posted a better post-trade point differential than the Nuggets...and yet, you said, it isn't very impressive...but it's better than the Nuggets.

Good job calling me clueless though, it will totally throw people off the trail when reading your post and realizing you have no clue what you're talking about and never look at any actual stats, just talk about them blindly. Also, notice the other teams it's been better than. There's only three teams that have posted a better PTD over that time. Yet, you call teams below us elite, teams above us elite, but clearly, we're not elite because our PTD is right in between those other teams you label elite. This is just sad at this point. But keep insulting me, while lying to backup your claims.

ldawg
03-04-2010, 08:31 AM
Denver has been together longer so their chemistry is better but Mavs have the better talant lets see if coach can put it together. With out this trade Mavs you would not talk about Mavs. They went from sorry to good with this trade give them time to put it together they are more talanted than Denver.

R.A.J.
03-04-2010, 09:30 AM
Everyone on DAllas is past their prime. BAck inthe day there would be no question.

Go Denver Mavericks.

kobebabe
03-04-2010, 09:53 AM
Mavericks. With Butler, Kidd, Marion, Haywood, Dampier, JT, Dirk and others, they're stacked at pretty much every position. They have a more complete team than Denver...other than Dirk, who I think does more harm than good sometimes. I think they may even be able to win the NBA title.


That is really taking it wayyyy overboard. These guys are formed for regular season and not playoffs.
Dirk will have to work his miracles to have us think of them differently.
A decent team but one that doesn't come close to winning a championship

MacFitz92
03-04-2010, 09:58 AM
[/B]


That is really taking it wayyyy overboard. These guys are formed for regular season and not playoffs.
Dirk will have to work his miracles to have us think of them differently.
A decent team but one that doesn't come close to winning a championship

Not formed to win a championship? :facepalm:

Talking about the team that lost in the finals, or the team that lost to GS in the first round? Because this team has 4 different starters now.

Tell me just how you could possibly say they are not formed to win a championship.

You are one of those guys who have just listened, and then repeat what you hear. This Mavs team is on a 9 game win streak since its trade, and there is no coincidence.

You sir, are a tool.

MacFitz92
03-04-2010, 10:01 AM
[/B]


That is really taking it wayyyy overboard. These guys are formed for regular season and not playoffs.
Dirk will have to work his miracles to have us think of them differently.
A decent team but one that doesn't come close to winning a championship

Want to sig bet that the Mavs make it farther than the Lakers do in the playoffs? Loser can only have the opposing team's logo in their sig until August 1.

ragee
03-04-2010, 10:30 AM
Everyone on DAllas is past their prime. BAck inthe day there would be no question.

Go Denver Mavericks.

Dirk is past his prime?

KC22
03-04-2010, 10:52 AM
This might be the most ridiculous thread that I have ever read. I feel dumber for having wasted the past 10 min reading it. Chronz, why does every post that you make have to be 3 pages long?

Oh yeah, Mavs have the more complete and solid team. (And K-Mart blows)

RadiantShot
03-04-2010, 10:55 AM
I don't know what to pick at this point. While Denver has a great front court, with Billups, Anthony, Smith, Lawson, Afflalo, Dallas also has a strong front court with Butler, Kidd, Terry, and then they have Dirk playing PF. I don't see the Mavs losing at home to Denver, neither do I see Denver losing at home to the Mavs. I think it's a wild-card. They're both great teams, great playoff competitors, so I'm not really sure who to pick at this point. My gut says Mavs, but my mind says Denver, it's a toss-up.

TxRangersP1
03-04-2010, 11:32 AM
Denver has Carmelo,Chauncey,Kenyon & maybe Nene Dallas has Dirk,Terry,Kid,Shawn,Caron,Brendan & maybe DeShawn gimmie Dallas with the better bench

DenButsu
03-04-2010, 12:11 PM
I don't know what to pick at this point. While Denver has a great front court, with Billups, Anthony, Smith, Lawson, Afflalo, Dallas also has a strong front court with Butler, Kidd, Terry, and then they have Dirk playing PF. I don't see the Mavs losing at home to Denver, neither do I see Denver losing at home to the Mavs. I think it's a wild-card. They're both great teams, great playoff competitors, so I'm not really sure who to pick at this point. My gut says Mavs, but my mind says Denver, it's a toss-up.

Think you may have your wires crossed on front/back court there.

st3voness
03-04-2010, 01:13 PM
So Chronz, you're saying an 82-0 team with a PT differential of 4 will be beaten in the playoffs by, let's say, a 60-22 team with a PT differential of 10. Is that your logic?

Chronz
03-04-2010, 01:28 PM
So Chronz, you're saying an 82-0 team with a PT differential of 4 will be beaten in the playoffs by, let's say, a 60-22 team with a PT differential of 10. Is that your logic?

Teams never greatly exceed their pythagorean win-loss record by those extremes. It just doesnt happen, the most Ive seen a team exceed its expected win-loss record was by 10. That 82 win team would have an incredible PT differential.

In a smaller comparison if you had a 50 win vs a 58 win team, but the 50 win team had the expected winning % of a 58 win team and vice versa for the other team, then your more often than not going to see the 50 win team win.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 01:38 PM
Honestly, I'm not going to sit and argue each individual point. Why? Because you change your argument. Case in point, you point out how Portland has a better differential and worse record, then change your attack when I mention a case with a better differential and better record loses.
Change my attack? Ive been consistent this entire time, if you think Ive changed anything then you havent been paying attention.


I can't win, because you're basically just preaching, PTD wins, that's it. Both of those cases are places where PTD shows it's flaws.
The only flaw your pointing out is in your thinking process.


On top of that, you CLEARLY didn't read the Hollinger post, I mean, calling me clueless when you can't read is impressive:
Incorrect, these are Hollingers words.
Look a little deeper, however, and the Mavs' résumé isn't nearly as impressive. They have gone 8-1 since their trade with Washington on Feb. 13, but they have outscored their opposition by only 5.3 points per game during that time. In other words, during their best stretch of the season, they still haven't matched the scoring margin of elite teams such as the Cavs (plus-7.3), Lakers (plus-6.4) and Magic (plus-5.8), and they barely exceed the marks of the Celtics, Hawks, Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs.
They arent impressive vs the elites and barely comparable to the second tier teams. And if you continue reading...

The Mavs' winning streak has come against some difficult opposition, but some easy matchups -- home games against Indiana and a Dwyane Wade-less Miami team, for instance -- have produced close shaves. In fact, Dallas hasn't won a game by more than 10 points since Jan. 24.


The entire article gos on how they havent been as impressive as their record indicates. Which is what I said Hollinger was saying. Now for your next inquiry


So wait...you're comparing them to the Nuggets...yet, they've posted a better post-trade point differential than the Nuggets...and yet, you said, it isn't very impressive...but it's better than the Nuggets.
Yes, dig deeper into your analysis and you'll see the scrape byes against pathetic teams. This is called contextualizing PT differential. Denver has amassed their PT differential in the sum of what 50 games with various injuries to far more important players than those you mentioned. For Dallas to have impressed me it would require a far greater PT differential in what has been their best stretch of a limited amount of games. They have an easy schedule coming up so this is their chance, but from the looks of last nights game vs the Twolves it may not happen.

In recap THIS is what I said; Speaking of Hollinger he has an article about why the Mavs record since the trade isnt as great as it seems. Where in that did I say that according to Hollinger their PT differential in 6 games is greater than Denver, what I said was their PT differential isnt IMPRESSIVE vs what the other second tier teams have done in a much wider scale with an assortment of injuries. All caught up yet?



Good job calling me clueless though, it will totally throw people off the trail when reading your post and realizing you have no clue what you're talking about and never look at any actual stats, just talk about them blindly.
LMFAO


Also, notice the other teams it's been better than. There's only three teams that have posted a better PTD over that time. Yet, you call teams below us elite, teams above us elite, but clearly, we're not elite because our PTD is right in between those other teams you label elite. This is just sad at this point. But keep insulting me, while lying to backup your claims.
Keep digging yourself in that hole kid, let me know if your still confused about anything.

jim51990
03-04-2010, 01:49 PM
i honestly feel either team will beat the lakers . i dont know why i just dont think the lakers are getting back to the finals

mikantsass
03-04-2010, 01:58 PM
Nuggets all day

Skizzik
03-04-2010, 02:49 PM
The only flaw your pointing out is in your thinking process.

PTD doesn't account for human factors (like a previously, extremely soft Mavs team, that most people feel got more physical, on Denver's level? Hell no, but more than they have been in recent memory). It doesn't factor in injuries or trades. It can't think for it's self and you continue to show that you focus on a stat that literally has zero human element and that in naturally flawed. All you do is literally insult me and ignore the fact that I'm simply arguing the nature of someone like you who relies on PTD as why the Mavs aren't contenders. I continually point at flaws in PTD and your best come back is insulting my thinking. Keep up the good work defending PTD. If you seriously don't see any flaws in PTD, there's nothing more to say here.


Incorrect, these are Hollingers words.
Look a little deeper, however, and the Mavs' résumé isn't nearly as impressive. They have gone 8-1 since their trade with Washington on Feb. 13, but they have outscored their opposition by only 5.3 points per game during that time. In other words, during their best stretch of the season, they still haven't matched the scoring margin of elite teams such as the Cavs (plus-7.3), Lakers (plus-6.4) and Magic (plus-5.8), and they barely exceed the marks of the Celtics, Hawks, Nuggets, Jazz and Spurs.
They arent impressive vs the elites and barely comparable to the second tier teams. And if you continue reading...

The Mavs' winning streak has come against some difficult opposition, but some easy matchups -- home games against Indiana and a Dwyane Wade-less Miami team, for instance -- have produced close shaves. In fact, Dallas hasn't won a game by more than 10 points since Jan. 24.


The entire article gos on how they havent been as impressive as their record indicates. Which is what I said Hollinger was saying.

Yes, dig deeper into your analysis and you'll see the scrape byes against pathetic teams. This is called contextualizing PT differential. Denver has amassed their PT differential in the sum of what 50 games with various injuries to far more important players than those you mentioned. For Dallas to have impressed me it would require a far greater PT differential in what has been their best stretch of a limited amount of games. They have an easy schedule coming up so this is their chance, but from the looks of last nights game vs the Twolves it may not happen.

I know, totally hard to believe the Twolves could EVER beat a good team...oh wait, they've beat the Mavs, the Nuggets and the Jazz! Clearly, this is only an issue for the Mavs, eh? Oh, also, the Twolves lost to Boston by 2, the Jazz by 4, and OKC by 2 twice. The Twolves didn't suddenly play well against the Mavs, they've played up to their competition or their competition played down to them multiple times this season. You and him make a big deal of winning by more than 10 points, but consider the following:

You ask for a far better differential? 5.1 PTD for the Mavs (better than Denver's 3.7 over Denver's only slightly tougher schedule at .549 SoS since the break and that's even factoring in last night's 29 point beatdown) is just god awful over 10 games where you're integrating new players, I know. Not to mention the .531 SoS over that stretch including three teams many people consider elite (and two of those wins were on the road) and even if you don't consider the Hawks elite, you can't ignore the wins over last year's two finalists.

To add even more, you PRETEND to go in-depth and still don't consider games missed by players, on top of the 9 games in 14 days coming out of the break, the 4 in 5 during that same period, the multiple out and backs (see the 4 in 5 set: Dallas (from the break), OKC, Dallas, Orlando, Dallas and also look at the back to back with an early game on the east coast). You only look at stats that are convenient for you and dismiss everything else.

No, we haven't won by more than 10 points during this streak, hasn't made a difference, has it? 5.1 PTD is still better than most teams over that time. There's nothing the Mavs can do about the fact you want to wait and see more data, they can only plays what's on the schedule. So feel free if their PTD drops back to 2.2 over the next month to come back and scream 'I told you so' if it does. But until then, the poster of this thread asked now and thus, the best date you can provide on the current Mavs roster is what's happened since the break. I'm sure you'd agree that using anything before the break won't properly represent this team, no?


In recap THIS is what I said; Speaking of Hollinger he has an article about why the Mavs record since the trade isnt as great as it seems. Where in that did I say that according to Hollinger their PT differential in 6 games is greater than Denver, what I said was their PT differential isnt IMPRESSIVE vs what the other second tier teams have done in a much wider scale with an assortment of injuries. All caught up yet?

Your specific quote: "again Im comparing the Mavs to the Nuggets."

That's where you mentioned you were...guess what...comparing them to the Nuggets, yet you call it unimpressive. When they've played only a slightly weaker schedule (but two more games) than Denver (.549 to .531) while posting a PTD of 1.4 points higher (5.1 to 3.7, Mavs). You simply point to back end of the stretch where an old team very well could be tired or be overlooking bad teams. Three games were back to backs and all three times they had traveling involved in those cases. But as I said above, you only link things that support your argument and ignore anything else.



Keep digging yourself in that hole kid, let me know if your still confused about anything.

I'm not confused on anything, you simply are saying, PTD is really important and as long as the matchup is close, will determine the better team. I've continually shown evidence that that's not always the truth and why PTD is a flawed stat, although, it's not worthless either. Your continual use of name calling though pretty much suggests that you're much more likely a "kid" than I am. But hey, for some people, that's the only way to make an argument.

dnnug
03-04-2010, 03:21 PM
What is strong and tuff about Denver the thuggs, their tatoos? This team don't play great defense. Why people around here think they a hell to beat?

its called english.. you should learn it.

So Dallas is 8-0 in their last 8 games? who exactly have they played?\
so you've played the Lakers, Orlando and Atlanta. Ok I'll give you those wins but the rest are lets face it teams you should beat.
on March 29 the nuggets will show who exactly is the better team.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 03:26 PM
PTD doesn't account for human factors (like a previously, extremely soft Mavs team, that most people feel got more physical, on Denver's level? Hell no, but more than they have been in recent memory). It doesn't factor in injuries or trades. It can't think for it's self and you continue to show that you focus on a stat that literally has zero human element and that in naturally flawed.
Wait so your arguing that stats dont tell the whole story, my god what a concept. None of this changes anything Ive said, because you see all those other teams have gone suffered through injuries, yet none have to make up the same excuses. If you factor in the PT differential since the trade they still arent elite, and not as impressive as Denvers OVERALL body of work.



All you do is literally insult me and ignore the fact that I'm simply arguing the nature of someone like you who relies on PTD as why the Mavs aren't contenders.
Yup and its very telling thus far. I insult you because you insult me, stop whining already.


I continually point at flaws in PTD and your best come back is insulting my thinking. Keep up the good work defending PTD. If you seriously don't see any flaws in PTD, there's nothing more to say here.

I know what your TRYING to do, Im asking you HOW is it flawed? You keep saying there is nothing more to say, but you havent said anything.


I know, totally hard to believe the Twolves could EVER beat a good team...oh wait, they've beat the Mavs, the Nuggets and the Jazz! Clearly, this is only an issue for the Mavs, eh?
Considering their PT differential, it is a rare occurrence, I dont need to mention all the teams theyve lost to because only an idiot thinks they can consistently win. No **** they win a few games, look at how many they lost. Only in your world do we overlook the overwhelming evidence in favor of selective evidence.

To use an analogy, if the weatherman predicts rain, are you going to be dressed for warm weather just because it has been proven that the weather man isnt 100% correct?


Oh, also, the Twolves lost to Boston by 2, the Jazz by 4, and OKC by 2 twice. The Twolves didn't suddenly play well against the Mavs, they've played up to their competition or their competition played down to them multiple times this season.
Then why do they sport a PT differential consistent with a team that has won 15 of 47 (their actual record is 14-48)? Clearly they dont play to the level of their competition, if they did they wouldnt be so bad.



You and him make a big deal of winning by more than 10 points, but consider the following:

You ask for a far better differential? 5.1 PTD for the Mavs (better than Denver's 3.7 over Denver's only slightly tougher schedule at .549 SoS since the break and that's even factoring in last night's 29 point beatdown) is just god awful over 10 games where you're integrating new players, I know. Not to mention the .531 SoS over that stretch including three teams many people consider elite (and two of those wins were on the road) and even if you don't consider the Hawks elite, you can't ignore the wins over last year's two finalists.
Yes Im asking for more considering the TOTALITY of the Nuggets PT differential and substantial losses throughout the year. Not just A-S Break.


To add even more, you PRETEND to go in-depth and still don't consider games missed by players, on top of the 9 games in 14 days coming out of the break, the 4 in 5 during that same period, the multiple out and backs (see the 4 in 5 set: Dallas (from the break), OKC, Dallas, Orlando, Dallas and also look at the back to back with an early game on the east coast). You only look at stats that are convenient for you and dismiss everything else.
I dont pretend to do anything, I leave the grunt work to you, have you factored in the numerous injuries that those same teams have suffered?


No, we haven't won by more than 10 points during this streak, hasn't made a difference, has it?
Yes, it shows your not on the level of the TRULY elite. Truly elite teams squash helpless victims and raise their PT differential to substantial levels.


5.1 PTD is still better than most teams over that time. There's nothing the Mavs can do about the fact you want to wait and see more data, they can only plays what's on the schedule. So feel free if their PTD drops back to 2.2 over the next month to come back and scream 'I told you so' if it does. But until then, the poster of this thread asked now and thus, the best date you can provide on the current Mavs roster is what's happened since the break. I'm sure you'd agree that using anything before the break won't properly represent this team, no?
I told you so? When did I ever say they couldnt improve, only that based on what theyve shown since the AS break isnt ELITE despite their record, and that I wouldnt dismiss their season long struggles just because in their best stretch they finally compare to the averages of teams that played all their games and have suffered injuries as well.



Your specific quote: "again Im comparing the Mavs to the Nuggets."

That's where you mentioned you were...guess what...comparing them to the Nuggets, yet you call it unimpressive. When they've played only a slightly weaker schedule (but two more games) than Denver (.549 to .531) while posting a PTD of 1.4 points higher (5.1 to 3.7, Mavs).
3.7? Denver has a +4.8 margin of victory and this is their average on the YEAR. You caught up yet?


You simply point to back end of the stretch where an old team very well could be tired or be overlooking bad teams. Three games were back to backs and all three times they had traveling involved in those cases. But as I said above, you only link things that support your argument and ignore anything else.
Your just full of excuses arent you, not sure where your getting your facts from.




I'm not confused on anything, you simply are saying, PTD is really important and as long as the matchup is close, will determine the better team. I've continually shown evidence that that's not always the truth and why PTD is a flawed stat, although, it's not worthless either. Your continual use of name calling though pretty much suggests that you're much more likely a "kid" than I am. But hey, for some people, that's the only way to make an argument.
I know what your TRYING to do, Im asking you HOW is it flawed? And your a kid if you think Im blindly looking at stats.

Rocktober2009
03-04-2010, 03:35 PM
Denver. I'll take the team with the PG who's won a championship everyday. Kidd has gotten there, but Billups has won a ring.

If Denver matches up with Dallas in the playoffs, Denver wins in 6.

j37hr0
03-04-2010, 03:43 PM
What a great playoff series Denver Dallas would be. Kmart punching Dirk in the kidneys, Melo scoring at will on Matrix. Nene dominating the paint. On paper I like the Nuggets, but there is the problem of George Karl. Karl teams melt down. Can Billups outcoach Karl and get the Nuggets to win the series? Or does it all fall apart on George Karl?

coloradobuff
03-04-2010, 03:45 PM
nuggets

Skizzik
03-04-2010, 04:04 PM
Wait so your arguing that stats dont tell the whole story, my god what a concept. None of this changes anything Ive said, because you see all those other teams have gone suffered through injuries, yet none have to make up the same excuses. If you factor in the PT differential since the trade they still arent elite, and not as impressive as Denvers OVERALL body of work.


Yes Im asking for more considering the TOTALITY of the Nuggets PT differential and substantial losses throughout the year. Not just A-S Break.


Yes, it shows your not on the level of the TRULY elite. Truly elite teams squash helpless victims and raise their PT differential to substantial levels.


I told you so? When did I ever say they couldnt improve, only that based on what theyve shown since the AS break isnt ELITE despite their record, and that I wouldnt dismiss their season long struggles just because in their best stretch they finally compare to the averages of teams that played all their games and have suffered injuries as well.


3.7? Denver has a +4.8 margin of victory and this is their average on the YEAR. You caught up yet?

Just on this, you reference their 4.8 on the year and call the 5.1 from the Mavs not on the level of the elite, while it sounds like you're calling the Nugget's differential elite. I mean, I'm sorry that I can't provide more games for you since the trade, you and I both will have to wait for the Mavs to play more games to see if they can sustain, improve or blow this. But 5.1 is higher than 4.8.

Yes, the Nuggets have had injuries, the Mavs have too. The Mavs have played down to their competition, but guess what? So has Denver! They've lost to: the Wizards, Kings, Twolves, Pistons, Hornets, Clippers and Heat. Nearly every argument you have against the Mavs can be said against Denver. Both have excuses and, unlike you suggest, neither HAVE to make excuses for them. Why? Because they're the 2 and 3 seeds in a very tough western conference.


Then why do they sport a PT differential consistent with a team that has won 15 of 47 (their actual record is 14-48)? Clearly they dont play to the level of their competition, if they did they wouldnt be so bad.

I said they either played up to (not every night, but it's possible on the rare occasion) OR THEIR OPPONENT PLAYED DOWN TO their level of talent. You basically call the Mavs out for sweating a close one to the Twolves and I linked evidence that many good teams have done the same thing. Which suggests, this isn't a Mavs thing, several teams overlook them or play uninterested against them. This had nothing to do with PTD, this was entirely about how opponents played against them and why you using the Mavs game against the Twolves as evidence of an ugly future doesn't tell the whole story.

RadiantShot
03-04-2010, 04:10 PM
Think you may have your wires crossed on front/back court there.

I think I may have. It was early, give me a break. :) Don't pay attention to that. Just to the statement.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 04:51 PM
Just on this, you reference their 4.8 on the year and call the 5.1 from the Mavs not on the level of the elite, while it sounds like you're calling the Nugget's differential elite. I mean, I'm sorry that I can't provide more games for you since the trade, you and I both will have to wait for the Mavs to play more games to see if they can sustain, improve or blow this. But 5.1 is higher than 4.8.
Ugh this is getting redundant, Ill explain it one last time.
Taking their sample from their last few games they fall well short of ELITE standards (as in the Title contenders), and arent impressive enough in such a small sample to outweigh the total of the secondary elite teams because your basically comparing a few games vs 50+ for the other teams. Your basically choosing to look at Dallas since the trade (their best stretch) and the RAW tallies for every other team. 5.1 is higher than 4.8 but that 4.8 turns into +6.5 (not counting the route of Oklahoma) when they have their top players. Likewise when Utah has gotten Miles+Korver back they too have fared better. Point being, you dont cherry pick just because you think the team is drastically different, what they did before the trade STILL matters.



Yes, the Nuggets have had injuries, the Mavs have too. The Mavs have played down to their competition, but guess what? So has Denver! They've lost to: the Wizards, Kings, Twolves, Pistons, Hornets, Clippers and Heat. Nearly every argument you have against the Mavs can be said against Denver. Both have excuses and, unlike you suggest, neither HAVE to make excuses for them. Why? Because they're the 2 and 3 seeds in a very tough western conference.
Then explain why Denver has a PT differential in line with a team thats 41-21 (their actual record btw). You see the argument doesnt apply because Denver isnt struggling to the degree Dallas is. TRY AGAIN




I said they either played up to (not every night, but it's possible on the rare occasion) OR THEIR OPPONENT PLAYED DOWN TO their level of talent. You basically call the Mavs out for sweating a close one to the Twolves and I linked evidence that many good teams have done the same thing. Which suggests, this isn't a Mavs thing, several teams overlook them or play uninterested against them. This had nothing to do with PTD, this was entirely about how opponents played against them and why you using the Mavs game against the Twolves as evidence of an ugly future doesn't tell the whole story.
If you look at any bad team they have surprising wins, what matters is the totality of their performance. Your evidence is weak in the face of PT differential. If what you were saying were true then the Twolves would have a much closer PT differential and wouldnt sport one consistent with a poor team. The fact that the Mavs cannot route teams like the Twolves is why their PT differential is so low, those other teams dont have that problem. They have MORE blowout wins than the Mavs and its why they have a superior PT differential. Refer to Den's efficiency differential post as to why.

Mavrix
03-04-2010, 04:53 PM
Denver. I'll take the team with the PG who's won a championship everyday. Kidd has gotten there, but Billups has won a ring.

If Denver matches up with Dallas in the playoffs, Denver wins in 6.

Dallas in 6

Plus Dallas will have HCA.

Young2Kinsler
03-04-2010, 04:53 PM
With Terry out Denver for sure has the upper hand right now. In the playoffs, with both teams healthy, it would be one hell of a series.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 05:07 PM
Dallas in 6

Plus Dallas will have HCA.

If Dallas maintains their level of play I will be impressed, but having HCA wont prevent the better team from winning.

still1ballin
03-04-2010, 05:16 PM
Dallas in 6

Plus Dallas will have HCA.

I did not know that the season was over already:eyebrow:

Skizzik
03-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Ugh this is getting redundant, Ill explain it one last time.
Taking their sample from their last few games they fall well short of ELITE standards (as in the Title contenders), and arent impressive enough in such a small sample to outweigh the total of the secondary elite teams because your basically comparing a few games vs 50+ for the other teams. Your basically choosing to look at Dallas since the trade (their best stretch) and the RAW tallies for every other team. 5.1 is higher than 4.8 but that 4.8 turns into +6.5 (not counting the route of Oklahoma) when they have their top players. Likewise when Utah has gotten Miles+Korver back they too have fared better. Point being, you dont cherry pick just because you think the team is drastically different, what they did before the trade STILL matters.

Outside of the standings, how does their pre-trade team matter, honestly? It's not the same team. It isn't cherry picking, we have TWO new starters, that's 40% of our starting lineup. That's a significant change. I didn't pick it because it was our best stretch, I picked that point to refer to since it's when our team had a major change in lineup. That pre-trade team won't be in the playoffs, this one will. So, tell me again, why does that version of the team matter?


Then explain why Denver has a PT differential in line with a team thats 41-21 (their actual record btw). You see the argument doesnt apply because Denver isnt struggling to the degree Dallas is. TRY AGAIN

If you think second seed in the West and a 9 game win streak over a brutal part of our schedule (refer to the things I noted in a previous post about the number of back to backs, the 4 games in 5 days and 9 in 14. Consider the age of the team, the number of flights they took, and especially the back to back ending in Charlotte, playing late at night, getting to Charlotte in the early morning and playing the earliest possible night game. On top of all that, the streak of playoff teams we played during this stretch). This team hardly is struggling. Under performing against bad teams? Sure. Struggling? No.


If you look at any bad team they have surprising wins, what matters is the totality of their performance. Your evidence is weak in the face of PT differential. If what you were saying were true then the Twolves would have a much closer PT differential and wouldnt sport one consistent with a poor team. The fact that the Mavs cannot route teams like the Twolves is why their PT differential is so low, those other teams dont have that problem. They have MORE blowout wins than the Mavs and its why they have a superior PT differential. Refer to Den's efficiency differential post as to why.

See, you say, it's ok Denver, Utah, OKC and Boston struggled to beat or lost to the Twolves, their point differential says it's ok. The Mavs on the other hands, HOW DARE THEY STRUGGLE AGAINST THE TWOLVES! I mean, seriously, double standard much? Teams not showing up and not playing 100% against the worst team in the west? Impossible, only the Mavs do that. No matter what stat you use, losing to the Twolves for ANY team not named the Nets is embarrassing. And they CAN route teams like the Twolves (seeing as we have the only 50 point blowout of a team this year - the Knicks, in NY), it's that we don't on a regular basis (that sentence is in response to the bolded section above).

Chronz
03-04-2010, 05:30 PM
Outside of the standings, how does their pre-trade team matter, honestly? It's not the same team. It isn't cherry picking, we have TWO new starters, that's 40% of our starting lineup. That's a significant change. I didn't pick it because it was our best stretch, I picked that point to refer to since it's when our team had a major change in lineup. That pre-trade team won't be in the playoffs, this one will. So, tell me again, why does that version of the team matter?
I take what the Mavs did before the trade as a reflection of their play, obviously strengthened with the additions. It means if they started off as a +2 team and in the ensuing stretch finish it as a +4 team, then obviously they arent as impressive as a team that went the entire regular season as a +4 team. If they finish it at +5 (their current pace) it will only add to their case, however if they expand on that to say the levels of truly elite teams then you have a totally new team. Point is, that previous rating still holds weight.



If you think second seed in the West and a 9 game win streak over a brutal part of our schedule (refer to the things I noted in a previous post about the number of back to backs, the 4 games in 5 days and 9 in 14. Consider the age of the team, the number of flights they took, and especially the back to back ending in Charlotte, playing late at night, getting to Charlotte in the early morning and playing the earliest possible night game. On top of all that, the streak of playoff teams we played during this stretch). This team hardly is struggling. Under performing against bad teams? Sure. Struggling? No.
Struggling relative to top teams, yes.
PS You forgot to mention all the nights players on opposing teams spent clubbing and drinking. That sure skews the stats LMFAO



See, you say, it's ok Denver, Utah, OKC and Boston struggled to beat or lost to the Twolves, their point differential says it's ok. The Mavs on the other hands, HOW DARE THEY STRUGGLE AGAINST THE TWOLVES! I mean, seriously, double standard much?
Its not a double standard because the Mavs poor showing against various levels of competition is part of an alarming trend as evident in their PT differential. Those other teams dont have the same issues. Stop thinking so literal, the Twolves are one of many poor teams.


Teams not showing up and not playing 100% against the worst team in the west? Impossible, only the Mavs do that.
Only the Mavs CONSISTENTLY struggle to that degree yes.


No matter what stat you use, losing to the Twolves for ANY team not named the Nets is embarrassing. And they CAN route teams like the Twolves (seeing as we have the only 50 point blowout of a team this year - the Knicks, in NY), it's that we don't on a regular basis (that sentence is in response to the bolded section above).
Exactly now imagine if your team was good enough to consistently maintain blowouts, they would have a far greater PT differential

Chronz
03-04-2010, 05:31 PM
I did not know that the season was over already:eyebrow:

Look at the stretch of games they have left, the Mavs WILL end up with HCA

still1ballin
03-04-2010, 05:35 PM
Look at the stretch of games they have left, the Mavs WILL end up with HCA

Its not scripted in stone is what I am saying. Yeah the Mavs may have a favorable schedule, but anything can happen, for example injuries.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 05:44 PM
Its not scripted in stone is what I am saying. Yeah the Mavs may have a favorable schedule, but anything can happen, for example injuries.

You shouldnt care about HCA, the better team will win regardless. All that matters is their level of play, and the Nuggs have proven all year to be the superior team.

Hawkeye15
03-04-2010, 05:47 PM
HCA doesn't matter at all really. The team that enters the playoffs playing better has the advantage. Its pretty simple.

Hawkeye15
03-04-2010, 05:47 PM
I will say, HCA matters a bit to a team that is a virgin to the 2nd round. But to a seasoned playoff team, it is not important

still1ballin
03-04-2010, 05:49 PM
You shouldnt care about HCA, the better team will win regardless. All that matters is their level of play, and the Nuggs have proven all year to be the superior team.

Who ever said I cared about HCA? I already said I liked Denver in this match up because of the experience they have. Mavrix was claiming that Mavs already have HCA, in which the season is not over and anything can happen from here til april.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 05:55 PM
fair enough, im just saying why argue about something so trivial?

Mavrix
03-04-2010, 06:05 PM
If Dallas maintains their level of play I will be impressed, but having HCA wont prevent the better team from winning.

That doesn't make sense, the better team is Dallas. Am I missing something? :confused:

With Dallas being the better team and having HCA, they would surely win in 5 or 6.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 06:11 PM
That doesn't make sense, the better team is Dallas. Am I missing something? :confused:

With Dallas being the better team and having HCA, they would surely win in 5 or 6.
The better team is one that displays the higher level of play throughout the year, HCA is a result of having more wins.

Mavrix
03-04-2010, 06:19 PM
The better team is one that displays the higher level of play throughout the year, HCA is a result of having more wins.

You act as if Dallas didn't make a huge trade, vastly improving their team.

You're clearly fail to understand the point most people are trying to make to you.

Was LA the favorites to win it all before the Gasol trade? No. Where they the favorites after? Yes.

Did they play a hell of a lot better after the trade? Yes.

LD555
03-04-2010, 06:26 PM
Dallas is better than the Nuggets on paper, but when push comes to shove the Nuggets are always in it. As long as they got a healthy Melo and Billups then they got a shot. Anything can happen in the postseason. I mean how do you think the term UPSET came about, dude?

LD555
03-04-2010, 06:32 PM
HCA does play a major factor in sports too bro, especially in the postseason. I mean if we are talking about a regular season matchup between the Mavs vs. Nets on the Nets homecourt, then NO homecourt probably won't mean jack. Seeing as how we are talking about teams that have fought and played tough enough all yr to make it to the playoffs, then yeah homecourt will play a factor.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 06:59 PM
You act as if Dallas didn't make a huge trade, vastly improving their team.

You're clearly fail to understand the point most people are trying to make to you.
Its the other way around actually. I fully understand, but your talking about a handfull of games where even then they dont stack up to the elites, nor is it more impressive than whats Denver has done on a collective basis.


Was LA the favorites to win it all before the Gasol trade? No. Where they the favorites after? Yes.
Did they play a hell of a lot better after the trade? Yes.

Great comparison, you see the jump LA went to from W/out Bynum to W/Gasol was in that time span was huge. There is no quantum leap in the Mavs play, sure theyve improved, but nothing to suggest they are better than Denver. Not yet anyways, had they come out like gangbusters and just demolished teams the way the Lakers did, or even the Pistons when they acquired for Sheed midway through the season I would be changing my tune, alas the Mavs arent THAT good.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 07:01 PM
HCA does play a major factor in sports too bro, especially in the postseason. I mean if we are talking about a regular season matchup between the Mavs vs. Nets on the Nets homecourt, then NO homecourt probably won't mean jack. Seeing as how we are talking about teams that have fought and played tough enough all yr to make it to the playoffs, then yeah homecourt will play a factor.
Thats not my point, would you rather have HCA or be the better team?

Mavrix
03-04-2010, 07:08 PM
Its the other way around actually. I fully understand, but your talking about a handfull of games where even then they dont stack up to the elites, nor is it more impressive than whats Denver has done on a collective basis.


Great comparison, you see the jump LA went to from W/out Bynum to W/Gasol was in that time span was huge. There is no quantum leap in the Mavs play, sure theyve improved, but nothing to suggest they are better than Denver. Not yet anyways, had they come out like gangbusters and just demolished teams the way the Lakers did, or even the Pistons when they acquired for Sheed midway through the season I would be changing my tune, alas the Mavs arent THAT good.

You say they're not THAT good, yet they beat the Hawks and Magic on the road, and the Lakers pretty much without a single practice since the trade. 2 of those games were without Butler.

Sure they're not beating teams by a huge margin but a win is a win. This team finds ways to win even when down by a large amount. It also shows how clutch the team is, winning 11 or 12 straight games when the game is decided by 5 points or less.

This team has played 10 games since the trade. In those ten games, they lost the first and won the next 9. If that doesn't show this team didn't jump from pretender to contender, considering the teams they played and the defense that pretty much blossomed over night, then I don't know what to tell you.

Chronz
03-04-2010, 07:17 PM
You say they're not THAT good, yet they beat the Hawks and Magic on the road, and the Lakers pretty much without a single practice since the trade. 2 of those games were without Butler.
Yes, I never denied any of that happened. Doesnt change anything Ive said.


Sure they're not beating teams by a huge margin but a win is a win. This team finds ways to win even when down by a large amount. It also shows how clutch the team is, winning 11 or 12 straight games when the game is decided by 5 points or less.
A win is not a win, in the words of the best GM in the biz, good teams dont win close games they avoid them.


This team has played 10 games since the trade. In those ten games, they lost the first and won the next 9. If that doesn't show this team didn't jump from pretender to contender, considering the teams they played and the defense that pretty much blossomed over night, then I don't know what to tell you.
The reason you dont know what to tell me is because you havent been studying the game long enough. Nobody denies theyve improved, but they got a long way to go before anyone considers them amongst the elite, and Id still take Denver anyday.

MacFitz92
03-04-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't see how any one could make an argument against Dallas.

This new team, other than its first game together, has not lost a single game(9 game win streak). And it's not like they've beaten a bunch of scrubs. They've beaten Pheonix, LA, Miami, @ Orlando, @ Atlanta, etc...

Its just hard for me to see someone making an argument against the Mavs.

JKiddFan4Life
03-04-2010, 07:49 PM
We can say that our team is better, but it doesn't really count for squat. I think what Chronz is saying makes sense. He's saying that Denver has been playing at a high level all year, without adding or removing any core pieces. Everyone at the beginning of the year said they were crazy for not making any trades, yet they're still right there with LA, who even picked up Artest in the offseason. Denver's playing at a high level, and knocking opponents off by some large margins. We can't deny that.

Now, the only way to prove we are better, aside from looking at a sheet of paper, is to play the team in question. We have to prove it, not just say we're better.

DenButsu
03-04-2010, 08:29 PM
We can say that our team is better, but it doesn't really count for squat. I think what Chronz is saying makes sense. He's saying that Denver has been playing at a high level all year, without adding or removing any core pieces. Everyone at the beginning of the year said they were crazy for not making any trades, yet they're still right there with LA, who even picked up Artest in the offseason. Denver's playing at a high level, and knocking opponents off by some large margins. We can't deny that.

Now, the only way to prove we are better, aside from looking at a sheet of paper, is to play the team in question. We have to prove it, not just say we're better.

Good point, and it gets exactly to the correct bottom line: All of the crap Nuggets fans and Mavs fans could talk from now until the end of the regular season, it really won't mean a damn thing until one of the two teams makes it deeper into the playoffs (preferably by facing and beating the other one).

Although it should be noted that by the end of the regular season we should have a much better idea than we do now of how the trade impacted the Mavs. 9 games is just too small a sample size to draw any definitive conclusions from, and a whole lot of good or bad things could happen with either team between now and the time the playoffs start.

For my part as a Nuggets fan, I'll just say that as long as they're fully healthy, I believe they have the ability to compete with any team in the league, and I think with last year's postseason success and this year's record against winning teams, they've pretty much proven that. Does that mean they necessarily will run the gamut and win the championship? No, of course not. But if they're able to beat the Mavs, or Jazz, or Lakers, or Cavs in a 7-game series, nobody who's paying attention should really be that surprised, because they really have reached the level where they can hang with the big boys now.

Mavrix
03-04-2010, 08:39 PM
Yes, I never denied any of that happened. Doesnt change anything Ive said.


A win is not a win, in the words of the best GM in the biz, good teams dont win close games they avoid them.


The reason you dont know what to tell me is because you havent been studying the game long enough. Nobody denies theyve improved, but they got a long way to go before anyone considers them amongst the elite, and Id still take Denver anyday.

You obviously haven't been watching the Lakers as of late. Every elite team gets the win, regardless of point differential. Kobe's been draining buzzer beaters on mediocre teams to get the win.

tp13baby
03-04-2010, 09:24 PM
Dallas is more consistent then Denver.

I just can't wait til both these teams say.