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xbrackattackx
02-27-2010, 09:50 PM
Do in the modern NBA with the 3 point line and Different rules. When he played there were no 3 points so he would have scored more. He is one of my favorite basketball players of all-time.How do you feel he would do with today's talent and rules still be one of the best?


For people who don't know him here's a highlight clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5-J2Spj7kg

69centers
02-27-2010, 11:19 PM
I thought there was a stat somewhere that calculated all his long distance shots and estimated how many 3's he would have hit. He definitely would have been one of the best at them. I believe his last year in the league they started the three pointers and he shot a limited amount but hit most of them.

xbrackattackx
02-27-2010, 11:21 PM
I thought there was a stat somewhere that calculated all his long distance shots and estimated how many 3's he would have hit. He definitely would have been one of the best at them. I believe his last year in the league they started the three pointers and he shot a limited amount but hit most of them.

Man, I wish you had that stat I would love to see it. Yea If he was still playing for the Jazz D-will would not be starting PG ha.I think he would still dominate and he had mad handles and a deadly shot.

heathonater
02-27-2010, 11:24 PM
he would have been a deadly three point shooter. its hard to believe that the nba didnt use to have 3 point line. it has brought alot of shooting specialists into the league.

seandonnelly18
02-27-2010, 11:26 PM
he would be even better because no one wants to play defense anymore, and only a few provide outstanding work ethic

xbrackattackx
02-27-2010, 11:28 PM
he would be even better because no one wants to play defense anymore, and only a few provide outstanding work ethic

When I was in High school I went to his basketball camp in Clearwater Florida. His work ethic they told us about was insane he never put a basketball down or left without it. When he was at a red light he would dribble out of his window and when he was waiting on something or someone all he did was work on his handles. And he Died young also.

deuces
02-27-2010, 11:29 PM
he would be even better because no one wants to play defense anymore, and only a few provide outstanding work ethic

i know, i swear mj would average 50 a game in today's game

xbrackattackx
02-27-2010, 11:33 PM
i know, i swear mj would average 50 a game in today's game

Yea players just want money now and don't care about the dedication the NBA use to have. Look at Rodman he would kill him self to get a loose ball or to get a rebound.

kswissdaf
02-27-2010, 11:35 PM
I disagree players back then like bob cousey, Jerry west wouldnt make it in todays nba

xbrackattackx
02-27-2010, 11:36 PM
I disagree players back then like bob cousey, Jerry west wouldnt make it in todays nba

Explain...

kswissdaf
02-27-2010, 11:47 PM
Explain...

The Athletes in todays game would destroy older players. Bigger faster stronger. Lets say you put Kwame Vs Bill russell Kwame would kill him. Because he is taller stronger and faster

Reversed86Curse
02-28-2010, 12:59 PM
The Athletes in todays game would destroy older players. Bigger faster stronger. Lets say you put Kwame Vs Bill russell Kwame would kill him. Because he is taller stronger and faster

It's not like you're talking about putting them in a time machine and dropping them in 2010.... If Jerry West or Cousey, with their same skills, were to play today, they'd have come up with the same training and regiment as todays players. Todays NBA players compensate what they lack in pure skill with more athleticism where as NBA players, like the Couseys, Wests , Pistol Petes and Russells had tons more skill than todays players

69centers
02-28-2010, 01:33 PM
The Athletes in todays game would destroy older players. Bigger faster stronger. Lets say you put Kwame Vs Bill russell Kwame would kill him. Because he is taller stronger and faster

WOW. Couldn't be further from the truth and one of the most absurd statements I've ever heard. Bill had the 7'1" 275 pound Wilt the Stilt on him for years and how many titles did Wilt win vs. Russell?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Russell_vs._Wilt

Are you going to tell me Kwame was better than Wilt? :facepalm:

bagwell368
03-01-2010, 12:04 PM
Maravich was a career .441 FG% shooter (never over .459). Fine for his day, nothing awesome now.

He hustled on D, but wasn't that good. His legs were long and not muscular enough to keep up with slashers then, never mind now.

He got some steals, had a ton of turnovers. He could play now, but as an offensive spark plug, hide the guy on D only sort of player. Ray Allen for instance is better in every way overall at the same position.

Super.
03-18-2010, 12:57 PM
The Athletes in todays game would destroy older players. Bigger faster stronger. Lets say you put Kwame Vs Bill russell Kwame would kill him. Because he is taller stronger and faster

Not a huge fan of this

but

:facepalm:

bagwell368
03-18-2010, 06:55 PM
It's not like you're talking about putting them in a time machine and dropping them in 2010.... If Jerry West or Cousey, with their same skills, were to play today, they'd have come up with the same training and regiment as todays players. Todays NBA players compensate what they lack in pure skill with more athleticism where as NBA players, like the Couseys, Wests , Pistol Petes and Russells had tons more skill than todays players

But then you can't know if they picked other sports, got hurt, dropped out. All you can do is compare the guys in their time.

Because it's true that in say 1963 you have less then 10 players that could make the league today, and all at a lesser level of quality then they they played at then.

tredigs
03-24-2010, 05:11 AM
The Athletes in todays game would destroy older players. Bigger faster stronger. Lets say you put Kwame Vs Bill russell Kwame would kill him. Because he is taller stronger and faster

HAHA Um... uh...uhh... come again? Then why exactly was the 6'7" Dennis Rodman able to dominate the glass and take down 7 straight rebounding titles (at rates higher than anybody in the league playing now as well) during the age of Prime Shaq/Duncan/Robinson/Malone/Ewing/Olajuwon, etc?

I'll tell you why. It's because he wanted it more, worked harder, and worked smarter. Bill Russell was at the VERY least as good a rebounder as Rodman, along with being MUCH more talented than Rodman in other aspects of the game (passing, offensive repertoire, shot-blocking, etc). That said, Kwame Brown doesn't hold a candle to even Rodman.

Your comment is seriously just so ridiculously misguided and wrong that it's just awesome. Thanks for a good laugh while I work late my man!


*edit: As for Pistol, he was an unbelievably talented player, and with the workout regiments that they have now --to go along with undying work ethic-- I'm sure he'd be an all star in today's game just like he was in that one. IMO the best players from any era (given the same training that the ones now are afforded), would be right along with the best players from this era. I could see Pistol having a career very similar to Nash's. A perennial all star and multiple MVP candidate/winner.

bagwell368
03-24-2010, 08:37 AM
HAHA Um... uh...uhh... come again? Then why exactly was the 6'7" Dennis Rodman able to dominate the glass and take down 7 straight rebounding titles (at rates higher than anybody in the league playing now as well) during the age of Prime Shaq/Duncan/Robinson/Malone/Ewing/Olajuwon, etc?

That's because many Centers of today, and even since the mid 70's have become effete jump shooting bone racks. Cowens, Alvin Adams, McAdoo, Hayes, Sampson, etc. all moved away from the hoop. Only Cowens (actually one of the great 4's of all time playing out of position at #5 could go in there and battle with the Silas type 4's). Rodman also gave up as much energy as possible from his offensive game to pursue rebounds and defense. He's a singular example, try some more.


I'll tell you why. It's because he wanted it more, worked harder, and worked smarter. Bill Russell was at the VERY least as good a rebounder as Rodman, along with being MUCH more talented than Rodman in other aspects of the game (passing, offensive repertoire, shot-blocking, etc). That said, Kwame Brown doesn't hold a candle to even Rodman.

Again Rodman is a singular example, that doesn't prove much. Russell had very little in terms of offensive moves, or shoot % results. You might want to watch more film.


Your comment is seriously just so ridiculously misguided and wrong that it's just awesome. Thanks for a good laugh while I work late my man!

For Russell's limitations, Kwame Brown would not destroy him, that's insane. Get away from Centers, bad choice of guys from that era to insult. Let's try Dave DeBusschere and Bill Bradley - those guys couldn't make a roster today.
Jerry Lucas, another huge player in his time. I doubt he could make a roster, and if he did, it would be as #11 and #12. The state of Center play is crappy enough now to allow Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Lanier into the game now - perhaps as big time players. Also Beaty, Reed, etc. could be PF's.

JordansBulls
03-24-2010, 02:22 PM
Pistol Pete would be like a Joe Johnson level type of guy today.

tredigs
04-01-2010, 04:55 AM
That's because many Centers of today, and even since the mid 70's have become effete jump shooting bone racks. Cowens, Alvin Adams, McAdoo, Hayes, Sampson, etc. all moved away from the hoop. Only Cowens (actually one of the great 4's of all time playing out of position at #5 could go in there and battle with the Silas type 4's). Rodman also gave up as much energy as possible from his offensive game to pursue rebounds and defense. He's a singular example, try some more.



Again Rodman is a singular example, that doesn't prove much. Russell had very little in terms of offensive moves, or shoot % results. You might want to watch more film.



For Russell's limitations, Kwame Brown would not destroy him, that's insane. Get away from Centers, bad choice of guys from that era to insult. Let's try Dave DeBusschere and Bill Bradley - those guys couldn't make a roster today.
Jerry Lucas, another huge player in his time. I doubt he could make a roster, and if he did, it would be as #11 and #12. The state of Center play is crappy enough now to allow Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Lanier into the game now - perhaps as big time players. Also Beaty, Reed, etc. could be PF's.


Shaq, The Admiral, Karl Malone, Mutombo, Barkley, Patrick Ewing, etc etc are "effete jump shooting bone racks"? News to me. And that's who Rodman was getting the rebounding titles over; by a WIDE margin at that. After him came some rebounding titles from a guy named Ben Wallace, who's 6'9" with Jordans on.

Those 90's Centers would've competed with the best rebounders of any generation, and two 6+ footers owned the glass in that generation. This is how you can tell with that Russell's rebounding domination would've translated seamlessly. He was also one of the best shot blockers of all time, not to mention one of the smartest shot blockers. If you've seen him play as much as you claim, then you can realize the difference between the way he blocks (to himself or to a teammate) and the way most modern players block (3 rows out of bounds). Here's a youtube video I just checked out that highlights that starting around the 1-minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfY6_wfqjxk

My argument wasn't for Bill's offensive game, although his passing was elite for a big and he had an offensive repertoire that a lot of bigs that play in the league right now would only wish they had. If fouls were called at anywhere near the level they are in today's game, his FG% would've been much higher.

Bottom line; guy was a beast then, and would be a beast now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWFsL4Y8RVA&feature=related

Another good tape on his blocks ^






Pistol Pete would be like a Joe Johnson level type of guy today.

Pistol was SO much slicker than Joe Johnson is. Way better passer and scorer, too. I don't see the comparison there honestly. I think Pistol would be a major star in the league today. Johnson good, and even earns some all stars, but he's not a star.

bagwell368
04-01-2010, 10:36 AM
Shaq, The Admiral, Karl Malone, Mutombo, Barkley, Patrick Ewing, etc etc are "effete jump shooting bone racks"? News to me.

Read much? I said "That's because many Centers of today, and even since the mid 70's have become effete jump shooting bone racks."

many... not all. Also, since when did Karl Malone become a center? Or Barkley? Or did you miss the word center as well?



Those 90's Centers would've competed with the best rebounders of any generation, and two 6+ footers owned the glass in that generation. This is how you can tell with that Russell's rebounding domination would've translated seamlessly. He was also one of the best shot blockers of all time, not to mention one of the smartest shot blockers. If you've seen him play as much as you claim, then you can realize the difference between the way he blocks (to himself or to a teammate) and the way most modern players block (3 rows out of bounds).

By all means search the forum, I've mentioned Russell's way of blocking prior to your snarky post. I've also talked about Unseld's outlet passes too, and other "old time" stuff. And what point are you making now?


Pistol was SO much slicker than Joe Johnson is. Way better passer and scorer, too. I don't see the comparison there honestly. I think Pistol would be a major star in the league today. Johnson good, and even earns some all stars, but he's not a star.

I didn't compare Joe Johnson to Pistol. I don't see the style being that close, but there is no way in hell Pistol would be a big star today. He would be abused so badly on D, the most he could be is an 18 minute a game offensive spark plug. That's it.

tredigs
04-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Read much? I said "That's because many Centers of today, and even since the mid 70's have become effete jump shooting bone racks."

many... not all. Also, since when did Karl Malone become a center? Or Barkley? Or did you miss the word center as well?




By all means search the forum, I've mentioned Russell's way of blocking prior to your snarky post. I've also talked about Unseld's outlet passes too, and other "old time" stuff. And what point are you making now?



I didn't compare Joe Johnson to Pistol. I don't see the style being that close, but there is no way in hell Pistol would be a big star today. He would be abused so badly on D, the most he could be is an 18 minute a game offensive spark plug. That's it.

Yes, you said "many", and I listed 6 off the top of my head, there were other big rebounders in the league as well such as DColeman, Olajuwon (who might fit your definition of "effete", but was in fact the biggest rebounding and shot-blocking center of the era), etc. The fact that Barkley or Coleman aren't centers is irrelevant. The point is that those are the one's fighting for boards on the glass. If you can remember, it's not as if Rodman was a center. And Bill Russell wouldn't have to be if he played in the 90's or today's era either.

As for scouring the forum for your post on Bill Russell being a smart shot-blocker, I think I'll just take your word for it... as for the point about outlet passing/offensive repertoire, the "point I am making now" is that his overall game would translate just fine. Obviously he wouldn't be playing the exact same style, that is foolish to think. But the talent and tools to be the best of the best in any era were there. And with that, I'm done arguing about Russell's domination. You're obviously bitter at me about this and it's just annoying at this point. You either get it or you don't. Agree or don't, yada yada.

As for Pistol's defense hampering him to catch more than 18 minutes a game in this era? I'll point you to a certain 6'3" Canadian with multiple MVP trophies who plays point for the Suns. When someone has an offensive game of that caliber, a defensive liability is something you live with. 18 minute a game spark plug for pistol, hahah... I can't even argue with you anymore.

bagwell368
04-02-2010, 09:29 PM
Yes, you said "many", and I listed 6 off the top of my head, there were other big rebounders in the league as well such as DColeman, Olajuwon (who might fit your definition of "effete", but was in fact the biggest rebounding and shot-blocking center of the era), etc. The fact that Barkley or Coleman aren't centers is irrelevant. The point is that those are the one's fighting for boards on the glass. If you can remember, it's not as if Rodman was a center. And Bill Russell wouldn't have to be if he played in the 90's or today's era either.

Many does not equal most, and I was talking about the trend in Centers of that era and beyond. I gave examples - it is simply true. I backed it up, and you are just trying to counter it for your own obscure reasons. Argue away, the truth is the truth. Please by all means show me Alvin Adams before 1970 would you?


As for scouring the forum for your post on Bill Russell being a smart shot-blocker, I think I'll just take your word for it... as for the point about outlet passing/offensive repertoire, the "point I am making now" is that his overall game would translate just fine. Obviously he wouldn't be playing the exact same style, that is foolish to think. But the talent and tools to be the best of the best in any era were there. And with that, I'm done arguing about Russell's domination. You're obviously bitter at me about this and it's just annoying at this point. You either get it or you don't. Agree or don't, yada yada.

Did you actually see Bill Russell play? I'm a Celts fan since 1966, steeped as deeply in the greatness of Russell as anyone on PSD. I was also a decent player in my own right, and a pretty fair coach as well, and my opinion is worth what it is, if you choose to fulminate over it, that's your problem. Hakeem would have eaten Russell under any circumstances in any era. How is that? Bitter at you? My "friend" I have many more clever and implacable enemies on PSD then you, you are not even top 15 at the moment. Keep trying however.... maybe you'll graduate. If I check back more often then every 30 hours - maybe you will have arrived.


As for Pistol's defense hampering him to catch more than 18 minutes a game in this era? I'll point you to a certain 6'3" Canadian with multiple MVP trophies who plays point for the Suns. When someone has an offensive game of that caliber, a defensive liability is something you live with. 18 minute a game spark plug for pistol, hahah... I can't even argue with you anymore.

Anyone so naive/lacking in understanding to compare Nash with Maravich hasn't the sense to stop staring at the sun. Nash is distinctly superior in his own era then Pistol was in his, and this era is far more athletic at guard then anything Pistol ever saw. Nash >>> Pistol. I'll post a comparison complete with stats - betcha Nash wins by more then 3 to 1.

tredigs
04-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Many does not equal most, and I was talking about the trend in Centers of that era and beyond. I gave examples - it is simply true. I backed it up, and you are just trying to counter it for your own obscure reasons. Argue away, the truth is the truth. Please by all means show me Alvin Adams before 1970 would you?



Did you actually see Bill Russell play? I'm a Celts fan since 1966, steeped as deeply in the greatness of Russell as anyone on PSD. I was also a decent player in my own right, and a pretty fair coach as well, and my opinion is worth what it is, if you choose to fulminate over it, that's your problem. Hakeem would have eaten Russell under any circumstances in any era. How is that? Bitter at you? My "friend" I have many more clever and implacable enemies on PSD then you, you are not even top 15 at the moment. Keep trying however.... maybe you'll graduate. If I check back more often then every 30 hours - maybe you will have arrived.



Anyone so naive/lacking in understanding to compare Nash with Maravich hasn't the sense to stop staring at the sun. Nash is distinctly superior in his own era then Pistol was in his, and this era is far more athletic at guard then anything Pistol ever saw. Nash >>> Pistol. I'll post a comparison complete with stats - betcha Nash wins by more then 3 to 1.

I'll defer to your expertise on pre-80's Centers because I wasn't able to see them live, and have to rely on ESPN Classic and youtube to see them play. For the record, I agree that Olajuwon would generally dominate Russell. But, I believe that Olajuwon was the greatest center of all time, so that sentiment goes for anyone.

That said, my points about Russell stand and you haven't shown me any reason to believe otherwise.

The Pistol / Nash tangent isn't meant to be a direct comparison. I agree Nash is greater than Pistol, and never once said otherwise. The point is that a player of Pistol's caliber has a place in the league, and I have no doubt that it would be in a prominent role. Going to tell me a league where a player like Jose Calderon (with some of the most decrepit D I've ever seen) is a 30+ minute a game starter doesn't have a place for Pete Maravich? You are only kidding yourself. We're talking about a guy who lead the league in scoring during the '77 season at 30+ ppg (over guys like prime Kareem and George Gervin)) to go along with 5 and 5 isn't going to be more than an 18 MPG spark plug?

As for being some PSD enemy? Hahah... don't flatter yourself, I'm content with random banter on here. I'll leave that for the real world.

Iodine
04-03-2010, 05:04 PM
Honestly I think his game would model simmilarly to kyle korver fused with bibby(not how effective he would be, how he would play) but his 3pt FG% would be to high to comprehend

bagwell368
04-03-2010, 05:23 PM
I'll defer to your expertise on pre-80's Centers because I wasn't able to see them live, and have to rely on ESPN Classic and youtube to see them play. For the record, I agree that Olajuwon would generally dominate Russell. But, I believe that Olajuwon was the greatest center of all time, so that sentiment goes for anyone.

We agree there.


That said, my points about Russell stand and you haven't shown me any reason to believe otherwise.

The stats bear me out on Russell - his shooting wasn't very good. Subjectively his offensive moves were not very good either. Now, he was content to blow his energy on defense and rebounding. He was a real good passer too, probably a top 10. So, I think it's possible that if his team (now) needed more offense, he could have come up with more and better. So I grant some intermediate amount of improvement/effort - but he was way way down the skill list from Walton, Jabbar, Hakeem, etc.

OK, but now let's cut him down in his area - defense and rebounding. He had to battle Wilt, then Bellamy, then Thurmond, later Reed and Unseld, and a number of 4's of the time playing out of position at the 5. And a lot of faceless/nameless 6' 9" guys of questionable athletic ability. I have to say the group from the mid 60's was no match for the group in the late 80's/early 90's. Russell would have been much less dominant on D, not only against Hakeem, but also Robinson, Ewing, M Malone, Sikma, etc.


The Pistol / Nash tangent isn't meant to be a direct comparison. I agree Nash is greater than Pistol, and never once said otherwise. The point is that a player of Pistol's caliber has a place in the league, and I have no doubt that it would be in a prominent role. Going to tell me a league where a player like Jose Calderon (with some of the most decrepit D I've ever seen) is a 30+ minute a game starter doesn't have a place for Pete Maravich? You are only kidding yourself. We're talking about a guy who lead the league in scoring during the '77 season at 30+ ppg (over guys like prime Kareem and George Gervin)) to go along with 5 and 5 isn't going to be more than an 18 MPG spark plug?

Maravich could only have played the 2 now (certainly on D), and a guy like Ray Allen is head and shoulders over him as a shooter away from the basket.

Calderon plays for a team that has been in the lottery, and has only won over 40 games twice in his time. Offensively he can play the point, and his shooting is far better then Pete's ever was. Calderon is much closer to the mark then Nash as a comp from Maravich was, but, I am afraid, in today's NBA Calderon as is would be a more effective and valuable player then Maravich in his best year '76-'77. You can forget 31.1 PPG, and think 13.1 PPG.

Some guys from the past like Cowens, Havlicek, Cheeks, Montcrief, DJ, KJ, Natar could translate well or very well to todays game. But guys like Cousy, Maravich, Jerry Lucas, Pettit, Naulls, Imhof, Daniels, Bellamy, and others would be hard pressed to make an NBA team, never mind star on one.