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View Full Version : IS Brandon Roy better suited as the #2 man on a title team or #1 man?



JordansBulls
02-24-2010, 03:46 PM
IS Brandon Roy better suited as the #2 man on a title team or #1 man?

albertc86
02-24-2010, 03:51 PM
Number 2. Great talent but his style requires a big man.

boriquaabe
02-24-2010, 03:52 PM
I think he made such a big splash in his first 2 seasons that we got a little too excited about his potential to be a superstar. He came out of college as a senior and I think he has hit his plateau. I think this caused The blazers to select Oden rather than Durant and they will rue the day they made that awful mistake. I saw no reason why Roy and Durant couldn't play together. So I think he is better suited to being a second option.

Ssshbliblibl00p
02-24-2010, 03:57 PM
He's a number 2 anyway you slice it.

Raph12
02-24-2010, 04:00 PM
I think he'd be a great #2 playing alongside a big man like Dwight.

HoopsDrive
02-24-2010, 04:02 PM
he's a number 2 anyway you slice it.

+1

shep33
02-24-2010, 04:05 PM
I think he can be a number 1 guy. Put it this way, we'd likely be saying how good he is, and probably mention this guy in MVP talk if he and his team were healthy. Nobody knows how good the Blazers would be if they weren't so banged up, and for as long as I can remember I have never seen so many players go down (Even Nate went down!). I bet they'd be top 3 in the west easily if they were healthy, probably #2 even cause Denver just plays too inconsisent against bad teams (Nuggets would still win in playoffs though). But man, this kid is sick, he does everything and has been hurt for most of this year. Look at him over the past couple weeks, leading his team with a really tough injury and keeping them in the playoffs.

magichatnumber9
02-24-2010, 04:20 PM
First off your body needs to be able to hold up for an entire season. Brandon Roy's body can not withstand the pounding of a full NBA season. That is why so many teams skipped him on draft night. Brandon was unfortunately built to be a star off the bench, but the Blazers said **** it. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers with Blazers fans, Brandon is a great talent.

madiaz3
02-24-2010, 04:21 PM
I think #2 but in such a way that he nearly shares responsibility equally ala Billups and Melo.

PLAYERS FAN
02-24-2010, 04:27 PM
Ask Artest is Roy a number one guy.

king4day
02-24-2010, 04:32 PM
He he could stay healthy I might say otherwise, but for now, #2

amoore87
02-24-2010, 04:37 PM
I think #2 but in such a way that he nearly shares responsibility equally ala Billups and Melo.

true..no matter how u put it u need a supporting cast to win ala the celtics/lakers/magic/cavs/nuggets/spurs/dallas (after this trade)...steve nash has been doin his thing for years but really hasnt had the cast to take it all the way..even tho being in the west hurts a lot

Tblaze
02-24-2010, 04:48 PM
He is..

Chronz
02-24-2010, 04:53 PM
I hate these kind of questions but Ill pass on derailing another one of your threads so Ill focus on the comments being made.


I think he'd be a great #2 playing alongside a big man like Dwight.

what makes you think dwight is a better offensive option than roy.

Bucsfan
02-24-2010, 04:54 PM
brandon roy has #2 all over him

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 04:56 PM
a great number 2.

Don Starks
02-24-2010, 05:02 PM
hes a number 2 that you want taking the last shot in the game

SteveNash
02-24-2010, 05:05 PM
Number 1 obviously.

xbrackattackx
02-24-2010, 05:05 PM
You put any other star on the HEALTHY blazers squad. They are very dangerous in my opinion. Not saying they aren't dangerous now. But I wanna see one good season out of Oden. And them to pick up a Free Agents this summer to help.

sp1derm00
02-24-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't get why all the votes for #2. He's proven to be successful as a #1 so far, he's just had health issues to deal with.

There aren't many players that would be #1 over Roy in the league. I can only think of: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Melo, Dirk, TD, Bosh, CP3, Deron, and Pierce.

That's only 11 players, maybe up to 15 if you count some others over him (these 11 were my opinion, and I might have missed some). That's half the number of teams in the league, meaning, Brandon Roy is a good #1 option for the other half of the teams.

dtmagnet
02-24-2010, 05:31 PM
I think Brandon Roy can be still be a #1.

Raph12
02-24-2010, 05:43 PM
I hate these kind of questions but Ill pass on derailing another one of your threads so Ill focus on the comments being made.



what makes you think dwight is a better offensive option than roy.

Beacause he demands a double team down-low which would free Roy to tear it up. And don't say he doesn't demand a double, just ask Shaq what happened late in the third and throughout the fourth or ask Perk what happened in the last two games they played... He's not the same guy who got shutdown in the Finals and he's not even that same guy who avged 7.5ppg against Perk in the first two meetings, he's getting the touches and he's delivering big... Best part, his team is winning ball games during this span where he's dominating.

J_M_B
02-24-2010, 05:46 PM
I think he's a border line #1 option on a championship squad, but would easily be a top 3 #2 option in the league right now.

JNA17
02-24-2010, 05:52 PM
I think he can be a number 1 option on a title contender team, but would be a great #2 option

daleja424
02-24-2010, 05:54 PM
2

Jaji
02-24-2010, 05:54 PM
def 2

Chronz
02-24-2010, 05:56 PM
Beacause he demands a double team down-low which would free Roy to tear it up. And don't say he doesn't demand a double, just ask Shaq what happened late in the third and throughout the fourth or ask Perk what happened in the last two games they played... He's not the same guy who got shutdown in the Finals and he's not even that same guy who avged 7.5ppg against Perk in the first two meetings, he's getting the touches and he's delivering big... Best part, his team is winning ball games during this span where he's dominating.
Im not seeing how that means hes a better offensive option, Roy is like a mini Kobe in how hes effective from anywhere on the court. Dwight is pretty much only a threat downlow and is nowhere near the passer Roy is, so from a playmaking and decision making standpoint Id have more trust in Roys ability to read and react.

Hellcrooner
02-24-2010, 05:59 PM
to early to know.

And he could definetly lead a Pistons 04 like team.

Big Quett
02-24-2010, 06:03 PM
He is a Scottie or Pau Gasol. Not Jordan or Kobe

BALLER R
02-24-2010, 06:06 PM
he needs a bosh like bosh needs a roy

heathonater
02-24-2010, 06:11 PM
roy is a number one player that needs another scorer on his team to take some of the defensive pressure off him. the blazers scoring problems can be attributed to over reliance on roy at times. get a scorer that can complement him and a healthy squad, then the blazers are a dangerous team. he isnt afaid to take the last shot, and throughout his career he has made clutch shots. those things make him a number one that needs another scorer to relieve some of the pressure from defenses off him.

Raph12
02-24-2010, 06:42 PM
Im not seeing how that means hes a better offensive option, Roy is like a mini Kobe in how hes effective from anywhere on the court. Dwight is pretty much only a threat downlow and is nowhere near the passer Roy is, so from a playmaking and decision making standpoint Id have more trust in Roys ability to read and react.

Yeah but getting him the ball and establishing him first would open Roy's game right up. It could be like the 2000-01 Shaq and Kobe, not because both avged 28.5ppg, but because they'd both dominate together, the big guy just eats first.

Kakaroach
02-24-2010, 06:45 PM
#1 with the correct pieces around him. Much like he has in Portland, now if they would stay healthy.

Chronz
02-24-2010, 06:55 PM
Yeah but getting him the ball and establishing him first would open Roy's game right up. It could be like the 2000-01 Shaq and Kobe, not because both avged 28.5ppg, but because they'd both dominate together, the big guy just eats first.
Couldnt you say the exact same thing for Roy opening up Dwights game? Big guys only eat first if they are more effective than their wing counterpart, Im not seeing that with Dwight vs Roy.

Dont get me wrong Dwights improving but Roy is a special kind of skilled.

twoearl
02-24-2010, 06:56 PM
Yeah number 2. He has the type of game that he can dominate a game every now and then but he is not the dude who is going to dominate everynight like a KD, bron or melo etc...

Afridi786
02-24-2010, 07:11 PM
There are maybe 3-5 guys in the league that are clear cut #1s. Roy isn't one of them.

ChongInc.
02-24-2010, 07:22 PM
1

BradyIsTheMan12
02-24-2010, 07:32 PM
I think if Roy has a big man inside that can eat some paint he is a number one on a contending team.

VCaintdead17
02-24-2010, 08:30 PM
#1 easily. He did great in the playoffs last year and just continues to get better. He's one of the best offensive players in the league and has yet to hit his ceiling. If it were up to a lot of posters on this forum, Wade, Kobe and Lebron are the real number one options, which makes no sense.

JordansBulls
02-24-2010, 08:43 PM
Seems like extremes on both ends.

JasonJohnHorn
02-24-2010, 09:09 PM
Like most things, I this is a matter of circumstance.

Take Kobe for example. Most people would easily say that Kobe should be the #1 option, but the fact of the matter is that the three finals he played where he took the most shots for his team, he is 1-2, where as the three teams where he was the number two option, he is 3-0. so even a player as dominant as Kobe can play better as the #2 option.

Roy isa great player who hasn't yet reached his potential. He has hit a lot of game winning shots (I think last season he was #1 or 2 for most game winning shots, though I may be mistaken on that), so he knows how to step up and has the ability to take and make the clutch shots, but that is not all you need for a #1 option. Billups for example isn't shy about taking big shots, but he is not your ideal #1 option.

For the Blazers Roy is a great first option and a healthy Blazers team with a Oden that doesn't get into foul trouble (which is a lot to ask), and an improved point guard rotation, is perfectable capable of winning with the depth they have. As the #1 option for their team, they wouldn't need him to dominate the ball like the Cavs need LBJ to, or the way that the Lakers needed Kobe to in the post-Shaq, pre-Gasol era, because the team is so deep, but he is still the current first option on a great team that is capable of contending when healthy.

On a team like the current Cavs, or the Celtics, or Spurs, Roy may find he is the #2 option and still capable of play into the team and helping them contend because he seems to be the type of team player who can share and thrive since even as the first option in Portland he still shares the ball a lot with the other guys on a roster that would be very deep if not for the injuries.

kozelkid
02-24-2010, 10:30 PM
I don't get why all the votes for #2. He's proven to be successful as a #1 so far, he's just had health issues to deal with.

There aren't many players that would be #1 over Roy in the league. I can only think of: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Melo, Dirk, TD, Bosh, CP3, Deron, and Pierce.

That's only 11 players, maybe up to 15 if you count some others over him (these 11 were my opinion, and I might have missed some). That's half the number of teams in the league, meaning, Brandon Roy is a good #1 option for the other half of the teams.

Disagree with bolded (well it's debateable between him and Deron), regardless, this guy is arguably a top 10 player, and definitely top 10 as a young player. As Chronz pointed out, he is very kobe like. He is certainly capable of being a #1 on a team.

JordansBulls
02-25-2010, 09:36 AM
Like most things, I this is a matter of circumstance.

Take Kobe for example. Most people would easily say that Kobe should be the #1 option, but the fact of the matter is that the three finals he played where he took the most shots for his team, he is 1-2, where as the three teams where he was the number two option, he is 3-0. so even a player as dominant as Kobe can play better as the #2 option.

Roy isa great player who hasn't yet reached his potential. He has hit a lot of game winning shots (I think last season he was #1 or 2 for most game winning shots, though I may be mistaken on that), so he knows how to step up and has the ability to take and make the clutch shots, but that is not all you need for a #1 option. Billups for example isn't shy about taking big shots, but he is not your ideal #1 option.

For the Blazers Roy is a great first option and a healthy Blazers team with a Oden that doesn't get into foul trouble (which is a lot to ask), and an improved point guard rotation, is perfectable capable of winning with the depth they have. As the #1 option for their team, they wouldn't need him to dominate the ball like the Cavs need LBJ to, or the way that the Lakers needed Kobe to in the post-Shaq, pre-Gasol era, because the team is so deep, but he is still the current first option on a great team that is capable of contending when healthy.

On a team like the current Cavs, or the Celtics, or Spurs, Roy may find he is the #2 option and still capable of play into the team and helping them contend because he seems to be the type of team player who can share and thrive since even as the first option in Portland he still shares the ball a lot with the other guys on a roster that would be very deep if not for the injuries.

Good Post!!

MacFitz92
02-25-2010, 10:09 AM
I hate these kind of questions but Ill pass on derailing another one of your threads so Ill focus on the comments being made.



what makes you think dwight is a better offensive option than roy.

Uhm, when I watch games like last night, when he was 11-11, and had 30 points.

MacFitz92
02-25-2010, 10:18 AM
Couldnt you say the exact same thing for Roy opening up Dwights game? Big guys only eat first if they are more effective than their wing counterpart, Im not seeing that with Dwight vs Roy.

Dont get me wrong Dwights improving but Roy is a special kind of skilled.

I disagree 101%. Dwight is the most "skilled" center in the league. SG's nowaday are a dime a dozen. Roy is good, but there's so many good SG's in the NBA.

I'd consider these 2-guards all better than Roy, or just as good.

Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Monta Ellis
Joe Johnson
Kevin Durant
Caron Butler

pebloemer
02-25-2010, 10:43 AM
I disagree 101%. Dwight is the most "skilled" center in the league. SG's nowaday are a dime a dozen. Roy is good, but there's so many good SG's in the NBA.

I'd consider these 2-guards all better than Roy, or just as good.

Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Monta Ellis
Joe Johnson
Kevin Durant
Caron Butler

I'd call Durant a SF and take Ellis and Butler off that list. And it isn't even close.

Regarding whether Roy can be a number one option, I say yes. Give him a number two options like Gasol and a good supporting cast and I don't think people even ask this question.

Consider this team:

PG: M. Williams
SG: Roy
SF: Battier
PF: Gasol
C: Perkins

Bench: Terry, Varejao, Pietrus, Lawson, Ilgauskas

Does that team contend for a championship with Roy as the number 1 option? I don't see why not.

$ NyC $
02-25-2010, 11:03 AM
I agree with the person who said that if his team had stayed healthy every1 would be bringing him up on MVP talks instead. They were playing great ball and were definitely a 50+ win team until EVERY1 (including the coach) got injured.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 12:43 PM
Couldnt you say the exact same thing for Roy opening up Dwights game? Big guys only eat first if they are more effective than their wing counterpart, Im not seeing that with Dwight vs Roy.

Dont get me wrong Dwights improving but Roy is a special kind of skilled.

Not really, 62% is a lot more effective than 48% if you ask me. Establishing Dwight down low would open up Roy's game immensely, whereas if Roy eats first, he'll be forced to make the right pass when he's doubled and it would limit Dwight to just being a finisher. Plus, having an off-night is a lot easier from 11-25 feet than it is from 10 feet and in.

If they play together, I think Dwight should eat first, that would open up the game, not only for Roy, but for everyone on the team.

Ragun
02-25-2010, 12:44 PM
#1

valade16
02-25-2010, 01:13 PM
I disagree 101%. Dwight is the most "skilled" center in the league. SG's nowaday are a dime a dozen. Roy is good, but there's so many good SG's in the NBA.

I'd consider these 2-guards all better than Roy, or just as good.

Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Monta Ellis
Joe Johnson
Kevin Durant
Caron Butler

Are you trying to make me spit out my coffee?!

Monta Ellis and Caron Butler? LOL. Good one...

Kobe, and Wade are better. If you count Durant as a SG then he's probably better, and while I disagree that Joe Johnson is better than Roy if you said you thought he was I could see where your coming from.

But ELLIS and BUTLER?? I mean, doesn't ellis average 4 Turnovers PER GAME?

valade16
02-25-2010, 01:15 PM
Not really, 62% is a lot more effective than 48% if you ask me. Establishing Dwight down low would open up Roy's game immensely, whereas if Roy eats first, he'll be forced to make the right pass when he's doubled and it would limit Dwight to just being a finisher. Plus, having an off-night is a lot easier from 11-25 feet than it is from 10 feet and in.

If they play together, I think Dwight should eat first, that would open up the game, not only for Roy, but for everyone on the team.

But that 62% is mostly on dunks and put-backs, his offensive game is not as good as Roys...

That being said I'd still run the offense through Dwight simply because it's easier to toss the ball back out to the perimeter once the defense collapses than it is to try to go to your post up man with a low shot clock.

blackjack_119
02-25-2010, 01:40 PM
On a championship team, Brandon Roy should be a #2 option the first three quarters of the game and the #1 option in the fourth quarter. Roy is one of the best players in the fourth quarter in the NBA, but he can't play like he does in the fourth all the time. He tried last season in the playoffs and was completely drained by game four of the first round.

GodsSon
02-25-2010, 01:55 PM
he needs a bosh like bosh needs a roy

+1

Tribe
02-25-2010, 02:12 PM
he's a #1 ... just needs his team to stay healthy

td0tsfinest
02-25-2010, 02:32 PM
He's a good #1 option and could probably lead a team deep into the playoffs but I just don't he'll able to lead the blazers to a championship unless they bring in someone who is Roy equal. I think the organization really wanted Oden to be that guy and a lot of people thought he would be but his career so far doesn't seem like it will pan out like it was suppose to.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 02:38 PM
But that 62% is mostly on dunks and put-backs, his offensive game is not as good as Roys...

That being said I'd still run the offense through Dwight simply because it's easier to toss the ball back out to the perimeter once the defense collapses than it is to try to go to your post up man with a low shot clock.

And this is why you shouldn't comment on things you don't know much about. Stop living in 2009, this season, Dwight's near a career-low for dunks and is taking the ball on the blocks creating his own offense. Plus he's doing it more efficiently than he ever has before.

So next time before you pass judgement on a player, take some time to actually watch him play. Geez, you'd think with all of the Magic's televised games, people would actually pay attention to a player of Dwight's caliber.

$ NyC $
02-25-2010, 02:52 PM
Not really, 62% is a lot more effective than 48% if you ask me. Establishing Dwight down low would open up Roy's game immensely, whereas if Roy eats first, he'll be forced to make the right pass when he's doubled and it would limit Dwight to just being a finisher. Plus, having an off-night is a lot easier from 11-25 feet than it is from 10 feet and in.

If they play together, I think Dwight should eat first, that would open up the game, not only for Roy, but for everyone on the team.

x2. Great post bro.

DaoudS
02-25-2010, 02:53 PM
#1. Ofcourse EVERY SG/SF needs a big man. Just like every big man needs a SF/SG.

Roy is clutch and has the ability to take over the game, everything #1 option needs.

valade16
02-25-2010, 02:55 PM
And this is why you shouldn't comment on things you don't know much about. Stop living in 2009, this season, Dwight's near a career-low for dunks and is taking the ball on the blocks creating his own offense. Plus he's doing it more efficiently than he ever has before.

So next time before you pass judgement on a player, take some time to actually watch him play. Geez, you'd think with all of the Magic's televised games, people would actually pay attention to a player of Dwight's caliber.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09ORL12.HTM

23% of his shots are dunks, that's freakin' 1 of every 4 shots!
And his FG% drops to 56% on close shots, while plummeting to 19% on jump shots...

http://www.82games.com/0809/08POR5.HTM

Couple that with Roy, who shoots 46% on jumpers, and 57% on close shots. Yeah, you got that right. Brandon Roy shoots a higher percentage on close shots than Howard when Dunks are eliminated from the equation.

So next time you try to ***** me out for not knowing my stuff, take a look at some stats yourself. Geez, you figure a guy wouldn't respond unless he knew his ****...

ULT WARRIOR408
02-25-2010, 02:59 PM
Although I like the role he has on the Blazer I think he'd be better suited as a #2 guy on a title team.

AIsixersFK
02-25-2010, 03:06 PM
i think hes a number 1 guy. He's the 3rd best SG in the league behind greats like Kobe and Wade. Sure if he had a better big than Aldrige and less injuries they could easily be a top 4 or 5 team in the West right now. The man's averaging what like 26 a game?

Raph12
02-25-2010, 03:09 PM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09ORL12.HTM

23% of his shots are dunks, that's freakin' 1 of every 4 shots!
And his FG% drops to 56% on close shots, while plummeting to 19% on jump shots...

http://www.82games.com/0809/08POR5.HTM

Couple that with Roy, who shoots 46% on jumpers, and 57% on close shots. Yeah, you got that right. Brandon Roy shoots a higher percentage on close shots than Howard when Dunks are eliminated from the equation.

So next time you try to ***** me out for not knowing my stuff, take a look at some stats yourself. Geez, you figure a guy wouldn't respond unless he knew his ****...

Those number are out of date smartass, Dwight's ppg avg is 18.7, not 18, his FG% is 60.7 not 60.1 and his FT% is 61.1 not 60.3.

Those are older stats and if you watched any games instead of just blurting out stats on an out-of-date site, you'd know that a lot of his dunks come from postmoves off the block. You'd know that he's creating offense for himself and not just finishing plays. If you watched actual games, you'd see him tearing defenses apart and scoring efficiently. If you watch him play, you'd see that his bank shot is coming along nicely, did you know he shoots 41.4% from 10-15 feet and 36% from 15-23 feet (numbers nearly identical to Duncan's, despite not taking the shot as often).

You need to go beyond the stats, that's why I said to watch him play and not just look at stupid stats like that. If you can create shots for yourself closer to the basket with spin moves/dropsteps/running hooks, than why would you settle for a jumper?

marvILLous
02-25-2010, 03:32 PM
b. roy is best suited as a 1a/1b type of player.

like, him and bosh would be perfect together as 1a and 1b

JordansBulls
02-25-2010, 04:08 PM
b. roy is best suited as a 1a/1b type of player.

like, him and bosh would be perfect together as 1a and 1b

So let's say the Blazers had Bosh instead of Aldridge, would they be legit title contenders?

DaoudS
02-25-2010, 04:27 PM
So let's say the Blazers had Bosh instead of Aldridge, would they be legit title contenders?

You would argue otherwise?

bigsams50
02-25-2010, 04:31 PM
So let's say the Blazers had Bosh instead of Aldridge, would they be legit title contenders?

Def. The way Bosh has been playing this year, with Portland's line up would be scary good

pebloemer
02-25-2010, 04:34 PM
So let's say the Blazers had Bosh instead of Aldridge, would they be legit title contenders?

I think they could in theory contend for a title, but they wouldn't be favorites. I think they may need another defensive piece or two in the starting lineup to contend, but the core of Bosh and Roy would be good enough to build a contender around IMO.

akay47
02-25-2010, 04:40 PM
Great guy to play alongside LBJ

marvILLous
02-25-2010, 04:46 PM
So let's say the Blazers had Bosh instead of Aldridge, would they be legit title contenders?

Miller
Roy
Batum
Bosh
Camby

for sure legit, not guaranteed or the favourites.. but they could do it i think

valade16
02-25-2010, 04:51 PM
Those number are out of date smartass, Dwight's ppg avg is 18.7, not 18, his FG% is 60.7 not 60.1 and his FT% is 61.1 not 60.3.

Those are older stats and if you watched any games instead of just blurting out stats on an out-of-date site, you'd know that a lot of his dunks come from postmoves off the block. You'd know that he's creating offense for himself and not just finishing plays. If you watched actual games, you'd see him tearing defenses apart and scoring efficiently. If you watch him play, you'd see that his bank shot is coming along nicely, did you know he shoots 41.4% from 10-15 feet and 36% from 15-23 feet (numbers nearly identical to Duncan's, despite not taking the shot as often).

You need to go beyond the stats, that's why I said to watch him play and not just look at stupid stats like that. If you can create shots for yourself closer to the basket with spin moves/dropsteps/running hooks, than why would you settle for a jumper?

I'm sorry, their so out of date their off by .7!! Lets add the .7 to his 56%, oh it only improved 56.7%...

And the site I just provided a link to said that his outside shot (i.e. outside the key) is at 19%, not 41% or 36% like your saying, leading me to believe you got those from somewhere that rhymes with "mass". Unless you can source those two numbers...

"go beyond the stats" that must be where your 41 and 36 percentages came from. Going beyond the stats and actually watching him play you'd realize that his post game, and footwork, are far from a finished product...

Raph12
02-25-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm sorry, their so out of date their off by .7!! Lets add the .7 to his 56%, oh it only improved 56.7%...

And the site I just provided a link to said that his outside shot (i.e. outside the key) is at 19%, not 41% or 36% like your saying, leading me to believe you got those from somewhere that rhymes with "mass". Unless you can source those two numbers...

"go beyond the stats" that must be where your 41 and 36 percentages came from. Going beyond the stats and actually watching him play you'd realize that his post game, and footwork, are far from a finished product...

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dwight Howard

A much more accurate site and always updated the next day after a game. You obviously don't watch the Magic play and are just one of those stat-whores who live and die by the silly interpretations of those out-of-date statistics.

I've seen every game the Magic played so far this season, why don't you go watch even 5 games and then get back at me with your silly outdated judgements.

Chronz
02-25-2010, 06:31 PM
Uhm, when I watch games like last night, when he was 11-11, and had 30 points.
Do you really think Dwight matches up statistically to Roy when it comes to offense?

Chronz
02-25-2010, 06:35 PM
Not really, 62% is a lot more effective than 48% if you ask me.
Thats because your not looking at all the stats, look up their per possession efficiency. Assisting % on made jumpers is also indicative of the quality of shots they have, Roy has to create more of his offense on his own and is still more efficient.


Establishing Dwight down low would open up Roy's game immensely, whereas if Roy eats first, he'll be forced to make the right pass when he's doubled and it would limit Dwight to just being a finisher. Plus, having an off-night is a lot easier from 11-25 feet than it is from 10 feet and in.
Really now, immensely you say. When it comes to facing double teams Id trust Roy more. And this theoretical off night you refer to dont exist, if they did then Dwight would have better offensive #'s.


If they play together, I think Dwight should eat first, that would open up the game, not only for Roy, but for everyone on the team.
Roy being the better passer and playmaker would open things up MORE for his teammates. The fact that he himself is a superior offensive player makes this a no brainer.



I disagree 101%. Dwight is the most "skilled" center in the league. SG's nowaday are a dime a dozen. Roy is good, but there's so many good SG's in the NBA.

I'd consider these 2-guards all better than Roy, or just as good.

Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Monta Ellis
Joe Johnson
Kevin Durant
Caron Butler
Id say you have trouble quantifying a players offensive effectiveness

But yes Wade, Durant and Kobe are better offensive players than Dwight.

29$JerZ
02-25-2010, 06:40 PM
1st option

Has good players around him, not his fault the most important position players are both out for the year

Chronz
02-25-2010, 06:44 PM
Those number are out of date smartass, Dwight's ppg avg is 18.7, not 18, his FG% is 60.7 not 60.1 and his FT% is 61.1 not 60.3.

Those are older stats and if you watched any games instead of just blurting out stats on an out-of-date site, you'd know that a lot of his dunks come from postmoves off the block. You'd know that he's creating offense for himself and not just finishing plays. If you watched actual games, you'd see him tearing defenses apart and scoring efficiently. If you watch him play, you'd see that his bank shot is coming along nicely, did you know he shoots 41.4% from 10-15 feet and 36% from 15-23 feet (numbers nearly identical to Duncan's, despite not taking the shot as often).

You need to go beyond the stats, that's why I said to watch him play and not just look at stupid stats like that. If you can create shots for yourself closer to the basket with spin moves/dropsteps/running hooks, than why would you settle for a jumper?

Now your just lying to yourself and bashing him for using a site that is what like 10 days out of date. Duncan shoots 50% (vs 43% for Dwight) from 10ft out, and although they shoot 2% difference from mid range, Duncan takes considerably more attempts from that distance so its not a comparison. And he never said anything about Dwight not creating his own looks, he just doesnt compare to Roy.

Dont say he uses stupid stats when you in turn prove that your willing to lie about them.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 06:58 PM
Now your just lying to yourself and bashing him for using a site that is what like 10 days out of date. Duncan shoots 50% (vs 43% for Dwight) from 10ft out, and although they shoot 2% difference from mid range, Duncan takes considerably more attempts from that distance so its not a comparison. And he never said anything about Dwight not creating his own looks, he just doesnt compare to Roy.

Dont say he uses stupid stats when you in turn prove that your willing to lie about them.

Look at the Hoopdata site you provided me, Duncan shoots 43% from 10-15 (Dwight shoots 41.4%) and he shoots 41% from 15-23 (Dwight shoots 36%). Now I agree that the amount of shots differ, but Dwight's too quick, fast, big and strong to settle for those jumpers as much as Duncan does.

And yes he did say that Dwight doesn't create his own looks:

But that 62% is mostly on dunks and put-backs

No one needs to lie, obviously Roy's the better offensive player, but his presence on the offensive end doesn't open the game up as much as Dwight's does. And if you disagree, then that's your call.

valade16
02-25-2010, 06:59 PM
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dwight Howard

A much more accurate site and always updated the next day after a game. You obviously don't watch the Magic play and are just one of those stat-whores who live and die by the silly interpretations of those out-of-date statistics.

I've seen every game the Magic played so far this season, why don't you go watch even 5 games and then get back at me with your silly outdated judgements.

I'll admit, those stats you said are correct (I admit to my failings), however your being dishonest (and I'm betting you know it too).

Look under his 10-15 foot shot stat, he takes .5 a game! So that means of Dwights 355 shots this year, a whopping 29 of them were from 10-15 feet. I'd say the sample size is pretty small, and if he was so good at them, he'd probably take more right?

But lets go to his (what seems to be) good 36% from 15-23 feet, and we find he takes a whopping .2 a game. Which comes out to 12 on the entire year.

You call me a stat whore and then purposely use stats to disguise Howards inefficiency from anywhere but right at the rim on offense... :mad:

You may have seen every Magic game but you probably haven't seen ANY OTHER GAMES or you'd realize that there's many guys in the league with superior offensive skill sets than Howard.

And FYI, every coach, gm, scout, player, former player, person on PSd, and anyone who knows anything about basketball will tell you that both Roy and Duncan are far more polished and well rounded and generally better offensive options than Howard.

Do us all a favor and cancel your internet service, you don't deserve to be on it...

valade16
02-25-2010, 07:02 PM
[QUOTE=Raph12;12428648]No one needs to lie, obviously Roy's the better offensive player, but his presence on the offensive end doesn't open the game up as much as Dwight's does. And if you disagree, then that's your call. QUOTE]

And I'll just end this debate right now.

I said "most of Dwights points are from put backs and dunks".

Well your site seems to agree with me my man.

of his 10.1 shots per game 5.9 are classified as AT RIM. Which he shoots 73%

3.4 are within 10 feet of the basket, whiche he shoots at 43.7%. That is worse than Brandon Roy!!!!!!

Face it, you failed. My assertion that most of his shots come right at the rim is proven by your own site, and my assertion that Brandon Roy is a more efficient offensive player is again proven by your site! :speechless:

Raph12
02-25-2010, 07:06 PM
Thats because your not looking at all the stats, look up their per possession efficiency. Assisting % on made jumpers is also indicative of the quality of shots they have, Roy has to create more of his offense on his own and is still more efficient.

You're looking at Dwight's stats for the season, but it wasn't until Martin Luther King day that he started playing as the #1 option on his team. I'm looking at Dwight's stats and numbers for the last 18 games.


Really now, immensely you say. When it comes to facing double teams Id trust Roy more. And this theoretical off night you refer to dont exist, if they did then Dwight would have better offensive #'s. Roy being the better passer and playmaker would open things up MORE for his teammates. The fact that he himself is a superior offensive player makes this a no brainer.

Opening the game up doesn't mean just mean passing out of doubles, in the game against the Cavs, Shaq/Varejao/Hickson wouldn't leave Dwight's side no matter what, opening up the lane and keeping the shotblocker's busy. Their TS% and EFG% are incomparable, while Roy's OFF Rating is only 4 higher than Dwight's and that's taking the season as a whole into account.

Look at Dwight's play in the last 18 games and then tell me why you would go to Roy first.

SteveNash
02-25-2010, 07:07 PM
Crap

Vince Carter was the first option at the start of the season.

Why do you think the great Brandon Roy wouldn't be the first option?

Raph12
02-25-2010, 07:09 PM
[QUOTE=Raph12;12428648]No one needs to lie, obviously Roy's the better offensive player, but his presence on the offensive end doesn't open the game up as much as Dwight's does. And if you disagree, then that's your call. QUOTE]

And I'll just end this debate right now.

I said "most of Dwights points are from put backs and dunks".

Well your site seems to agree with me my man.

of his 10.1 shots per game 5.9 are classified as AT RIM. Which he shoots 73%

3.4 are within 10 feet of the basket, whiche he shoots at 43.7%. That is worse than Brandon Roy!!!!!!

Face it, you failed. My assertion that most of his shots come right at the rim is proven by your own site, and my assertion that Brandon Roy is a more efficient offensive player is again proven by your site! :speechless:

It doesn't matter if 100% of his points are at the basket and he shoots of them 2% from outside. Because ultimately, he creates those plays for himself to get that high percentage bucket.

He's not just standing under the rim getting dunks/layups, if he can create a shot for himself closer to the rim, why the hell would he not take it?

Raph12
02-25-2010, 07:10 PM
Vince Carter was the first option at the start of the season.

Why do you think the great Brandon Roy wouldn't be the first option?

Because the team is doing better with Dwight as the first option instead of Vince.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 07:12 PM
I'll admit, those stats you said are correct (I admit to my failings), however your being dishonest (and I'm betting you know it too).

Look under his 10-15 foot shot stat, he takes .5 a game! So that means of Dwights 355 shots this year, a whopping 29 of them were from 10-15 feet. I'd say the sample size is pretty small, and if he was so good at them, he'd probably take more right?

But lets go to his (what seems to be) good 36% from 15-23 feet, and we find he takes a whopping .2 a game. Which comes out to 12 on the entire year.

You call me a stat whore and then purposely use stats to disguise Howards inefficiency from anywhere but right at the rim on offense... :mad:

You may have seen every Magic game but you probably haven't seen ANY OTHER GAMES or you'd realize that there's many guys in the league with superior offensive skill sets than Howard.

And FYI, every coach, gm, scout, player, former player, person on PSd, and anyone who knows anything about basketball will tell you that both Roy and Duncan are far more polished and well rounded and generally better offensive options than Howard.

Do us all a favor and cancel your internet service, you don't deserve to be on it...

You're not getting it, I know they are umteen times more polished than Dwight, but if he is the 1st option the team will still do better.

Playing inside-out is a lot more effective than outside in.

valade16
02-25-2010, 07:12 PM
[QUOTE=valade16;12428683]

It doesn't matter if 100% of his points are at the basket and he shoots of them 2% from outside. Because ultimately, he creates those plays for himself to get that high percentage bucket.

He's not just standing under the rim getting dunks/layups, if he can create a shot for himself closer to the rim, why the hell would he not take it?

I said that most of Dwight Howards points are dunks and put-backs, and I said that Brandon Roy is a more efficient offensive player.

I never said, nor never will say, that Dwight should step out and pop more jumpers.

I was just trying to convey they Howard has a lot of work to do on his offensive game where as Roy's is pretty well developed.

The fact that Howard's shooting percentage goes down 27% when he merely steps away from the rim is a pretty good indicator this is true...

SteveNash
02-25-2010, 07:13 PM
Because the team is doing better with Dwight as the first option instead of Vince.

Because Vince sucks.

valade16
02-25-2010, 07:14 PM
You're not getting it, I know they are umteen times more polished than Dwight, but if he is the 1st option the team will still do better.

Playing inside-out is a lot more effective than outside in.

I agree with this, I posted this a few posts back:


That being said I'd still run the offense through Dwight simply because it's easier to toss the ball back out to the perimeter once the defense collapses than it is to try to go to your post up man with a low shot clock.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 07:16 PM
[QUOTE=Raph12;12428756]

I said that most of Dwight Howards points are dunks and put-backs, and I said that Brandon Roy is a more efficient offensive player.

I never said, nor never will say, that Dwight should step out and pop more jumpers.

I was just trying to convey they Howard has a lot of work to do on his offensive game where as Roy's is pretty well developed.

The fact that Howard's shooting percentage goes down 27% when he merely steps away from the rim is a pretty good indicator this is true...

You gotta take into account that he was not even the 2nd option on his team for quite some time. He's had games this season where he's taken 1 fg attempt. It wasn't until they played LA, that Stan decided to make Dwight the anchor of the team on offense.

As the #1 option on his team, he's playing a lot better and I just want people to know that all his points don't come from putbacks/easy layups/dunks, he creates those plays himself by breaking his man and getting to the basket.

valade16
02-25-2010, 07:17 PM
[QUOTE=valade16;12428789]

You gotta take into account that he was not even the 2nd option on his team for quite some time. He's had games this season where he's taken 1 fg attempt. It wasn't until they played LA, that Stan decided to make Dwight the anchor of the team on offense.

As the #1 option on his team, he's playing a lot better and I just want people to know that all his points don't come from putbacks/easy layups/dunks, he creates those plays himself by breaking his man and getting to the basket.

I think everyone can agree that a team with Brandon Roy and Dwight Howard would be sick no matter who was the number 1 option...

Raph12
02-25-2010, 07:19 PM
[QUOTE=Raph12;12428825]

I think everyone can agree that a team with Brandon Roy and Dwight Howard would be sick no matter who was the number 1 option...

x2... That would be a great combo, sort of like Kobe and Shaq 2.0.

Chronz
02-25-2010, 07:23 PM
Look at the Hoopdata site you provided me, Duncan shoots 43% from 10-15 (Dwight shoots 41.4%) and he shoots 41% from 15-23 (Dwight shoots 36%).
Your not following and your still lying, again Duncan is shooting 50% from that zone, not 43%.


Now I agree that the amount of shots differ, but Dwight's too quick, fast, big and strong to settle for those jumpers as much as Duncan does.
Thats kind of the point of Duncan relying on his outside shot more as hes aged, which is why your comparison to Duncan from a shooting standpoint was flawed.


And yes he did say that Dwight doesn't create his own looks:
It is MOSTLY when compared to ROY.


No one needs to lie, obviously Roy's the better offensive player, but his presence on the offensive end doesn't open the game up as much as Dwight's does. And if you disagree, then that's your call.
Thats what Ive been saying from the start, Dwight is only now learning how to open things up for his teammates, Roy has been doing that since college.

Chronz
02-25-2010, 07:31 PM
You're looking at Dwight's stats for the season, but it wasn't until Martin Luther King day that he started playing as the #1 option on his team. I'm looking at Dwight's stats and numbers for the last 18 games.
LOL how do you know what Im looking at when Im telling you to look it up? Can I take the best 18 game stretch of Roys career and stack it up against Dwights? Its going to take more than a nice stretch that you have yet to properly quantify to convince me that Dwight is capable of playing at a level of efficiency (120X100Possessions/with a significant usage/assist rate) that Roy displayed for the full 82 games that directly translated into the leagues best offense. Again Im not looking at anything, Im asking you to do it.



Opening the game up doesn't mean just mean passing out of doubles, in the game against the Cavs, Shaq/Varejao/Hickson wouldn't leave Dwight's side no matter what, opening up the lane and keeping the shotblocker's busy. Their TS% and EFG% are incomparable, while Roy's OFF Rating is only 4 higher than Dwight's and that's taking the season as a whole into account.
You know that excuse you like to use for Dwight not being the first option early on, same thing applies for Roy when Oden was around, and the fact that hes been playing banged up all year. Look at last year for the true reflection, and 4PTS is significant, now imagine a HEALTHY Roy. If we look at Roys stretch when he was healthy and Oden initially got injured (which I think is a span of 16 games or so) his #'s are absurd. But you dont look at small sample sizes, which is why we should both look at the summation of their work. And from their body of work Roy is easily the more proven option with a better understanding of how to utilize his teammates.



Look at Dwight's play in the last 18 games and then tell me why you would go to Roy first.
Because its still doesnt stack up, you can say he MAY become a better offensive player, but at this point its not even close.

Chronz
02-25-2010, 07:35 PM
You're not getting it, I know they are umteen times more polished than Dwight, but if he is the 1st option the team will still do better.

Playing inside-out is a lot more effective than outside in.
Cliches dont work around here

Not if the perimeter player is so much more effective at not only scoring himself but creating for his teammates.

Or else why did the Heat start winning once they stopped trying to force feed Shaq? Trust me bro it happens, ALOT.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 08:00 PM
LOL how do you know what Im looking at when Im telling you to look it up? Can I take the best 18 game stretch of Roys career and stack it up against Dwights? Its going to take more than a nice stretch that you have yet to properly quantify to convince me that Dwight is capable of playing at a level of efficiency (120X100Possessions/with a significant usage/assist rate) that Roy displayed for the full 82 games that directly translated into the leagues best offense. Again Im not looking at anything, Im asking you to do it.

Like I said, not saying he's better offensively than Roy, I'm saying it's smarter to play inside-out with an elite big.


You know that excuse you like to use for Dwight not being the first option early on, same thing applies for Roy when Oden was around, and the fact that hes been playing banged up all year. Look at last year for the true reflection, and 4PTS is significant, now imagine a HEALTHY Roy. If we look at Roys stretch when he was healthy and Oden initially got injured (which I think is a span of 16 games or so) his #'s are absurd. But you dont look at small sample sizes, which is why we should both look at the summation of their work. And from their body of work Roy is easily the more proven option with a better understanding of how to utilize his teammates.

Roy was always the #1 option, even with Oden completely healthy and at the top of his game. His health is none of my concern, you don't see me making excuses for Kobe or Melo because they missed significant amount of time with injuries.


Because its still doesnt stack up, you can say he MAY become a better offensive player, but at this point its not even close.

I already said he's not better yet and I do think he will be better eventually, but that's besides the point. I still think getting him the ball first would make the team better as a whole.


Cliches dont work around here

Not if the perimeter player is so much more effective at not only scoring himself but creating for his teammates.

Or else why did the Heat start winning once they stopped trying to force feed Shaq? Trust me bro it happens, ALOT.

They were stupid to forcefeed him in the first place, as soon as they'd estblished his presence down low, they should've let Wade get to work because the lane was a lot more open now that the defensive attention was focused on Shaq.

Btw, if Roy was really as god-like as you make him sound, his team wouldn't be in the dumps year-in, year-out (and yes I count 1st round exits as "the dumps"). And don't make the his teammates aren't good enough excuse, like you said, cliches don't work here.

Replace Roy and Oden, with Dwight and Carter and the Blazers become elite.

Sadds The Gr8
02-25-2010, 08:01 PM
He can be a #1 guy...just needs a Good Big man that won't get injured for the whole season, every year. The way he takes over games in the clutch is similar to only Kobe and Lebron. Besides, he's still pretty young.

Sadds The Gr8
02-25-2010, 08:05 PM
Like I said, not saying he's better offensively than Roy, I'm saying it's smarter to play inside-out with an elite big.



Roy was always the #1 option, even with Oden completely healthy and at the top of his game. His health is none of my concern, you don't see me making excuses for Kobe or Melo because they missed significant amount of time with injuries.



I already said he's not better yet and I do think he will be better eventually, but that's besides the point. I still think getting him the ball first would make the team better as a whole.



They were stupid to forcefeed him in the first place, as soon as they'd estblished his presence down low, they should've let Wade get to work because the lane was a lot more open now that the defensive attention was focused on Shaq.

Btw, if Roy was really as god-like as you make him sound, his team wouldn't be in the dumps year-in, year-out (and yes I count 1st round exits as "the dumps"). And don't make the his teammates aren't good enough excuse, like you said, cliches don't work here.

Replace Roy and Oden, with Dwight and Carter and the Blazers become elite.

Lol? Roy has only been to the playoffs once, how can you consider him a playoff bust...Dwight went thru the same thing when he was younger...when Detroit slapped them every year...And this year, his team has went through more injuries than any other team in the league...BY FAR

Raph12
02-25-2010, 08:08 PM
Your not following and your still lying, again Duncan is shooting 50% from that zone, not 43%.

10-15: 1.3M 2.9A 43.7FG%
15-23: 1.2M 2.9A 42.0FG%
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tim Duncan

I'm not lying, go back and check it smart guy.


Thats kind of the point of Duncan relying on his outside shot more as hes aged, which is why your comparison to Duncan from a shooting standpoint was flawed.

I know it's flawed, but the point is that even though he seldon takes it, when he does, his percentage of making the bank shot isn't too far from Timmy's.


It is MOSTLY when compared to ROY.

If Roy could get to the rim at will like Dwight can, he wouldn't be settling for jumpers either.


Thats what Ive been saying from the start, Dwight is only now learning how to open things up for his teammates, Roy has been doing that since college.

I agree, but I think that if Dwight continues to play as the 1st option like he has (especially the way he's played since the AS break [they've been forcefeeding him]), he will continue to get better and better until he can close the gap and take over as the clear cut #1 option on the team.

Raph12
02-25-2010, 08:10 PM
Lol? Roy has only been to the playoffs once, how can you consider him a playoff bust...Dwight went thru the same thing when he was younger...when Detroit slapped them every year...And this year, his team has went through more injuries than any other team in the league...BY FAR

And yet they're 2nd in the East, 3rd in the league and he's played each and every game.

Dwight's been to the 2nd round in his 4th season and the Finals in his 5th. We'll see if Roy can make the second round this season and then the NBA finals in the next. :rolleyes:

Chronz
02-25-2010, 09:02 PM
Like I said, not saying he's better offensively than Roy, I'm saying it's smarter to play inside-out with an elite big.
Whatever you say man, Roy being the better offensive player makes him the main option.



Roy was always the #1 option, even with Oden completely healthy and at the top of his game. His health is none of my concern, you don't see me making excuses for Kobe or Melo because they missed significant amount of time with injuries.
Incorrect, you mustve forgotten how he was complaining at the beginning of the year about how he has had to search for the ball and not getting the touches he was used to. His health should be of concern, your trying to analyze his game right. Same thing applies to Kobe, or do you really think his injuries havent effected his efficiency?



I already said he's not better yet and I do think he will be better eventually, but that's besides the point. I still think getting him the ball first would make the team better as a whole.
First sure, being the main option is about who gets the MOST/BULK of the offensive load and whos more efficient in that role.



They were stupid to forcefeed him in the first place, as soon as they'd estblished his presence down low, they should've let Wade get to work because the lane was a lot more open now that the defensive attention was focused on Shaq.
Exactly they stopped trying to run the offense through Shaq and Wade obliterated, in turn making Shaq even more effective. Roy would do the same for Dwight, make him better than Dwight could ever make Roy.


Btw, if Roy was really as god-like as you make him sound, his team wouldn't be in the dumps year-in, year-out (and yes I count 1st round exits as "the dumps"). And don't make the his teammates aren't good enough excuse, like you said, cliches don't work here.
Care to provide any proof to this?


Replace Roy and Oden, with Dwight and Carter and the Blazers become elite.
Well yea, that has nothing to do with Dwights OFFENSIVE contributions. You seem to think Im saying Roy is a better overall player when Dwight easily has more impact. Come on bro your usually more on point than this.

Chronz
02-25-2010, 09:20 PM
10-15: 1.3M 2.9A 43.7FG%
15-23: 1.2M 2.9A 42.0FG%
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tim Duncan

I'm not lying, go back and check it smart guy.
(EDIT) I see where the confusion was heres what Im saying

Dwight
<10: 43%
10-15: 41%
15-23: 36%

Duncan
<10: 50%
10-15: 43%
15-23: 42%

Now Duncan consistently hits these shots, whereas Dwight brings it out once a blue moon. They are NOT comparable, end o story


I know it's flawed, but the point is that even though he seldon takes it, when he does, his percentage of making the bank shot isn't too far from Timmy's.
If you know its flawed why compare the 2? The point is that he doesnt take enough of them to put on the same platform.



If Roy could get to the rim at will like Dwight can, he wouldn't be settling for jumpers either.
If Dwight could make jumpshots like Roy hed take more of them, you see its not settling if your good at making them, creating jumpshots means your basically never going to turn it over which is why you look at per possession efficiency on that shot selection. What matters is how efficient you are OVERALL. Roy has the total package, he can hurt you in a variety of ways.

JordansBulls
02-26-2010, 09:26 AM
Is the argument now that Roy would be the #1 guy with Dwight on the team?

Raph12
02-26-2010, 01:30 PM
Whatever you say man, Roy being the better offensive player makes him the main option.

Not true, because if Dwight can play like he has for a full season (28.5ppg-16.5rpg-2.5apg-1spg-4bpg-1.5tpg), he'd easily eclipse Roy as the better offensive player and be the clear cut #1 option. But if Roy takes away from his offensive development by taking too many shots, his game will never be where it could be and the team won't be as good as it could be.


Incorrect, you mustve forgotten how he was complaining at the beginning of the year about how he has had to search for the ball and not getting the touches he was used to. His health should be of concern, your trying to analyze his game right. Same thing applies to Kobe, or do you really think his injuries havent effected his efficiency?

Yes but that just means he doesn't mesh well with other offensive threats on his team and will be complaining for shots if he feels he's not getting enough. And for the injury question, do you think that people saying Lebron's now better than Kobe are taking his injury into account? If they did, no one would be saying Lebron's better that's for sure.


First sure, being the main option is about who gets the MOST/BULK of the offensive load and whos more efficient in that role.

No I think it would be close, difference is, to establish the big man first.


Exactly they stopped trying to run the offense through Shaq and Wade obliterated, in turn making Shaq even more effective. Roy would do the same for Dwight, make him better than Dwight could ever make Roy.

If you think Shaq's presence in the low post had no effect on how open the lane was to Wade, then I'm done talking about it.


Care to provide any proof to this?

He's made the playoffs once, as the fav in a series and lost. Dwight's never lost as the better team in a series and got his team out of the 1st round in his 4th season and in the Finals in his 5th.


Well yea, that has nothing to do with Dwights OFFENSIVE contributions. You seem to think Im saying Roy is a better overall player when Dwight easily has more impact. Come on bro your usually more on point than this.

Yeah I forgot about the defensive part, I mean if Dwight's on the Blazers, he'd draw more attention than Roy does which would free up his teammates for more open shots and would free up the lane for penetration.


(EDIT) I see where the confusion was heres what Im saying

Dwight
<10: 43%
10-15: 41%
15-23: 36%

Duncan
<10: 50%
10-15: 43%
15-23: 42%

Now Duncan consistently hits these shots, whereas Dwight brings it out once a blue moon. They are NOT comparable, end o story

Those are stats from the full season and like I said, if I bring the stats from the last 18 games, the numbers are much closer with Dwight leading in the <10 category.


If you know its flawed why compare the 2? The point is that he doesnt take enough of them to put on the same platform.

I know, but even if you take less, doesn't mean your percentages should count for nothing. I just needed to compare his percentages from that distance with someone. His bank shot is much better, but he doesn't take it often enough because he doesn't have to.


If Dwight could make jumpshots like Roy hed take more of them, you see its not settling if your good at making them, creating jumpshots means your basically never going to turn it over which is why you look at per possession efficiency on that shot selection. What matters is how efficient you are OVERALL. Roy has the total package, he can hurt you in a variety of ways.

Roy's better offensively when comparing the full season, but like I said, Dwight was playing as the 3rd, 4th and sometimes even got only like 1-5 shots in the game for the first 40 games or so. You can't compare a 1st option to a role player, now that Dwight's playing as the first option, he's much more effective, especially after the AS break, he looks like a man on a mission.

I think that despite Roy being better offensively atm, Dwight could develop to be better than him. And if Roy takes away from Dwight's shots at this point when he's flourishing, it could hurt his offensive game and he could never meet his potential.

Raph12
02-26-2010, 01:31 PM
Is the argument now that Roy would be the #1 guy with Dwight on the team?

Yes

Chronz
02-26-2010, 05:25 PM
Not true, because if Dwight can play like he has for a full season (28.5ppg-16.5rpg-2.5apg-1spg-4bpg-1.5tpg), he'd easily eclipse Roy as the better offensive player and be the clear cut #1 option. But if Roy takes away from his offensive development by taking too many shots, his game will never be where it could be and the team won't be as good as it could be.
Why are you mentioning statistics that have nothing to do with offense? And not true? You just said Roy is the better offensive player, if Roy is the better offensive player hes the main option by saying IF your changing the entire argument. Cmon bro it sounds like your just trying to argue for the hell of it.



Yes but that just means he doesn't mesh well with other offensive threats on his team and will be complaining for shots if he feels he's not getting enough. And for the injury question, do you think that people saying Lebron's now better than Kobe are taking his injury into account? If they did, no one would be saying Lebron's better that's for sure.
Your kind of missing the point, if thats true then apparently neither can Dwight. Or does your excuse only work for players you root for? Umm Ive been saying Brons better since last years playoffs. It has nothing to do with Kobe being at top speed, but I know for damn sure I wouldnt rate Kobe by how hes played this year.

PS If Roy speaks out about not getting the ball enough it means hes not just going to let it slide the way Dwight does. Do you really think its a plus for your dominant center to be fine with being a role player? I want my star to act like one.


No I think it would be close, difference is, to establish the big man first.
I really dont care man, whoever has the bigger load of the offense and is more efficient in that role will be the main guy. And by those standards, Roy has proven himself a better offensive option.



If you think Shaq's presence in the low post had no effect on how open the lane was to Wade, then I'm done talking about it.
Not sure where you got that from, what I said was, once Shaq became LESS of a priority and the team gave the offense to Wade, he tore it up and in turn made Shaq better.



He's made the playoffs once, as the fav in a series and lost. Dwight's never lost as the better team in a series and got his team out of the 1st round in his 4th season and in the Finals in his 5th.
uh huh...... so how does any of that prove what you just said? PS he should have never been favored that series. People just fall in love with HCA neglecting important factors.



Yeah I forgot about the defensive part, I mean if Dwight's on the Blazers, he'd draw more attention than Roy does which would free up his teammates for more open shots and would free up the lane for penetration.
Not buying it bro, like Ive been saying from the beginning, from a playmaking standpoint Roy beats out Dwight. Hes simply has a much higher basketball IQ. Add to the fact that he himself is a superior scorer and its no question he would have the ball in his hands more than Dwight.



Those are stats from the full season and like I said, if I bring the stats from the last 18 games, the numbers are much closer with Dwight leading in the <10 category.
LOL you referenced that site. Like you said? Go ahead show me the stats then.



I know, but even if you take less, doesn't mean your percentages should count for nothing. I just needed to compare his percentages from that distance with someone. His bank shot is much better, but he doesn't take it often enough because he doesn't have to.
Then compare it to someone who has a similar usage and efficiency, not a guy who blasts him away in both. Your comparison was futile, live with it.



Roy's better offensively when comparing the full season, but like I said, Dwight was playing as the 3rd, 4th and sometimes even got only like 1-5 shots in the game for the first 40 games or so. You can't compare a 1st option to a role player, now that Dwight's playing as the first option, he's much more effective, especially after the AS break, he looks like a man on a mission.
YOU cant compare them, I can. I just need your help quantifying those stats. Besides at the start of your post you were saying how it only exposes him for not meshing well with his teammates, same thing applies for Dwight.


I think that despite Roy being better offensively atm, Dwight could develop to be better than him. And if Roy takes away from Dwight's shots at this point when he's flourishing, it could hurt his offensive game and he could never meet his potential.
Im not talking about development, only what would be best for a team trying to WIN. It seems counterproductive for the less effective offensive player who is also the less effective playmaker to handle the bulk of the offense.

Chronz
02-26-2010, 05:33 PM
Is the argument now that Roy would be the #1 guy with Dwight on the team?
Simple breakdown, Roy has proven himself the better option throughout his career, Raph wants the last 18 games to be used as the true reflection of Dwights ability. Because its what happens to his play since he became a bigger offensive priority, neglecting to give the same benefit to Roy and trying to ignore that injuries have effected his performance.

I know Dwights production will drop, he has yet to post the stats from that stretch but even from the per game averages hes posted I can tell you that wont be sustainable. Which is why we shouldnt deal with small sample sizes. Its called regression to the mean.

Can Dwight become the better option, obviously. Bigmen take longer to develop and Dwight has buttloads of potential. But its going to take more than 18 games to prove it.

JordansBulls
02-26-2010, 07:58 PM
Good debate going on here.
:clap:

Raph12
02-26-2010, 08:33 PM
Why are you mentioning statistics that have nothing to do with offense? And not true? You just said Roy is the better offensive player, if Roy is the better offensive player hes the main option by saying IF your changing the entire argument. Cmon bro it sounds like your just trying to argue for the hell of it.

I'm using "if" because I feel like Dwight can produce these type of numbers throughout a full season. He just needs to be the #1 option the team to do so.


Your kind of missing the point, if thats true then apparently neither can Dwight. Or does your excuse only work for players you root for? Umm Ive been saying Brons better since last years playoffs. It has nothing to do with Kobe being at top speed, but I know for damn sure I wouldnt rate Kobe by how hes played this year.

Well I think Kobe is better, with or without injury, because when it comes right down to it, he has the jumpshooting ability Lebron doesn't, he's more clutch down the stretch and he can play off-ball which helps keep his teammates active on the offensive end so they don't go on as many dry spells. But my point is that people feel this is the season Lebron is better than Kobe and no one takes Kobe's injury into consideration when comparing their numbers.


PS If Roy speaks out about not getting the ball enough it means hes not just going to let it slide the way Dwight does. Do you really think its a plus for your dominant center to be fine with being a role player? I want my star to act like one.

Agreed, but having a player that can play with anyone without complaints is a damn good quality I'd love to have in a player. If it was Dwight playing with Kobe in LA, they'd still have the success, but be together a lot longer, that's for sure.


I really dont care man, whoever has the bigger load of the offense and is more efficient in that role will be the main guy. And by those standards, Roy has proven himself a better offensive option.

That's the thing, Roy's proven it, but Dwight hasn't had his shot to prove it. I think he has the ability to be better if given the chance... And yes, I know I just used another "if"


Not sure where you got that from, what I said was, once Shaq became LESS of a priority and the team gave the offense to Wade, he tore it up and in turn made Shaq better.

Wade was always the 1st priority, he took 25 and 19 FGA, 10 and 14 FTA in the first two games. They used the hack-a-Shaq a lot and he couldn't make FTs, Dwight wouldn't go 1-9 and 1-7 he's more efficient at the stripe. Shaq had a good first game (8-11FG) and didn't get nearly as many touches in the second game (2-5FG), so they went to Wade and it worked. If Shaq could make his FTs even at 60%, they could've gone to him a lot more and still win.


uh huh...... so how does any of that prove what you just said? PS he should have never been favored that series. People just fall in love with HCA neglecting important factors.

I agree, I thought the Rockets would win, but it is what it is. Dwight's won against adversity and he's won as the fav team as well, he'll find ways to win, but now he can do it on both ends.


Not buying it bro, like Ive been saying from the beginning, from a playmaking standpoint Roy beats out Dwight. Hes simply has a much higher basketball IQ. Add to the fact that he himself is a superior scorer and its no question he would have the ball in his hands more than Dwight.

I agree he'd have the ball in his hands for more time than Dwight and he'd be the goto guy when Dwight's doubled or late in games, but if they establish Dwight early, it would open up the whole game for all of his teammates. Think about it, Nelson got by Mo and Shaq and Varejao both stayed on Dwight and let Nelson get to the basket for an uncontested layup, just because they didn't want him to hit Dwight with the pass.


LOL you referenced that site. Like you said? Go ahead show me the stats then.

I'll show you think on another post when I do the math.


Then compare it to someone who has a similar usage and efficiency, not a guy who blasts him away in both. Your comparison was futile, live with it.

There's no one in the league who plays the same way he does, I took a quick-fix and I'll admit it, it was flawed.


YOU cant compare them, I can. I just need your help quantifying those stats. Besides at the start of your post you were saying how it only exposes him for not meshing well with his teammates, same thing applies for Dwight.

Well when you find a way to compare a guy waiting to touch the ball, to a guy with the ball in his hands most of the time, let me know.


Im not talking about development, only what would be best for a team trying to WIN. It seems counterproductive for the less effective offensive player who is also the less effective playmaker to handle the bulk of the offense.

That would slow him down and he may never amount to his potential, which wouldn't be the best for a team trying to win, because if he's at the top of his game, they'd be umpteen times better.

Raph12
02-26-2010, 10:15 PM
I'm gonna save the trouble for writing each game stat out and just calculate the numbers:

Tim Duncan Stat Location:
At Rim: 3.1M/4.8A = 64.1%|<10 Feet: 1.9M/3.9A = 50.0%|10-15 Feet: 1.3M/2.9A = 43.7%|15-23 Feet: 1.2M/2.9A = 42.0%

Dwight Howard Stat Location for the last 18 Games:
At Rim: 5.1M/6.7A = 76.7%|<10 Feet: 1.9M/4.4A = 44.3%|10-15 Feet: 0.5M/0.9A = 53.9%|15-23 Feet: 0.2M/0.3A = 60.0%

Now Dwight's clearly better at finishing at the rim, he actually attempts more than Timmy from <10 but shoots it a bit worse and despite taking considerably less from 10-23, he shoots a higher percentage.

Like I said, they're two diff players and the comparison is flawed, but Dwight's still shooting the ball well from everywhere on the floor.