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View Full Version : New ESPN Stat: Lebron James/Kobe Bryant Related



JordansBulls
02-24-2010, 09:56 AM
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg



Which leads me to ask... how many game winners does Lebron have in that space (if he's made 25 lead changing shots in the last 24 seconds over that time, a good number of those must be game winners), and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

The whole stat seems rather arbitrary and it's an interesting move by ESPN

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 10:05 AM
Let the LeBron hate commence in 5...4...3...2...

LakersIn5
02-24-2010, 10:05 AM
it didnt say that the Field goals were lead changing shots.. cuz it just says FG in last 24 sec on one possesion game... a 3pt lead is still a one possesion game and maybe lebron made a 2 pt field goal which doesnt mean that it wasnt a lead changing shot.. i dunno. thats what i thought.

and 2002-2003 because i dunno. maybe its just a mistake and its really 2003-2005 :p

dev0
02-24-2010, 10:16 AM
because LeBron pads stats!... if it's the final minutes of a game and the cavs are down by 7 or 9 and have no chance of winning, Bron's still out there charging to the hole. He gets more buckets, but not necessarily winning ones and i can imagine why. Did you see the all star game?
i'm not going to hate i just want to rile some people up... opinions?

ManRam
02-24-2010, 10:19 AM
I don't think the stat is entirely arbitrary.

24 seconds = the shot clock, last possession (possibly) of the game
Any shout made in that circumstance is huge. It either puts you ahead, ties it up, or puts you within one (and with time to foul, that is huge)

Like Kobe's shot last night. How many seconds were left? Like 8? There still was the chance for Memphis to win. It wasn't a buzzer beater. I think any shot within that time period is undoubtedly huge. A shot that ties the game is just as big as a shot that wins the game. You can't win if you don't tie it up in many times.


Kobe is the best (slightly arguably) last second shooter in the game. All this stat does is prove that LeBron is not not clutch. He is a top 5 clutch player in the league...easily.

prodigy
02-24-2010, 10:19 AM
Lebron has many Game winning shots. But most of them come with a few secs left, so the media do not count them. Its weird.

ManRam
02-24-2010, 10:20 AM
because LeBron pads stats!... if it's the final minutes of a game and the cavs are down by 7 or 9 and have no chance of winning, Bron's still out there charging to the hole. He gets more buckets, but not necessarily winning ones and i can imagine why. Did you see the all star game?
i'm not going to hate i just want to rile some people up... opinions?

This stat has nothing to do with those situations...


So thanks for riling people up with total irrelevance.

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 10:20 AM
because LeBron pads stats!... if it's the final minutes of a game and the cavs are down by 7 or 9 and have no chance of winning, Bron's still out there charging to the hole. He gets more buckets, but not necessarily winning ones and i can imagine why. Did you see the all star game?
i'm not going to hate i just want to rile some people up... opinions?

You fail at reading... "ONE POSSESSION GAME"

prodigy
02-24-2010, 10:21 AM
because LeBron pads stats!... if it's the final minutes of a game and the cavs are down by 7 or 9 and have no chance of winning, Bron's still out there charging to the hole. He gets more buckets, but not necessarily winning ones and i can imagine why. Did you see the all star game?
i'm not going to hate i just want to rile some people up... opinions?


In the final mintues down by 7 you can still win. DUHHHHH!!!!

BTW- I never once seen Lebron Pad his stats. Not once.

mikantsass
02-24-2010, 10:49 AM
It started at 2002-2003 because Kobe probably had a ton of game winners that year and they wanted to make the gap between Kobe and LeBron very minimal

king4day
02-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Isn't 'related' the wrong term to use for this thread?

RaysFan
02-24-2010, 11:16 AM
There is some link out there that talks about game winning shots and it had LeBron #1 over the last 6 or 7 years. I don't know how LeBron got the "he isn't clutch" label because it is proven not to be true.

JNA17
02-24-2010, 11:22 AM
interesting however, it seems that it only shows the shot made in the last 24 seconds. This could end up in many ways.

1. Example, VC could have just made a shot that either tied it or still down by a point or 2.

2. Lebron made a shot with a couple of seconds left but the player on the other teams makes the winning shot.

And so on.

JNA17
02-24-2010, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE=ManRamForPrez24;12414377] Like Kobe's shot last night. How many seconds were left? Like 8? QUOTE]

there was 4 :facepalm: They still had a chance to make a shot afterwards but you made a big difference with 8 seconds when there were actually 4 :pity:

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 11:26 AM
That's just misleading they should just compare there game winners

tr4shb0t
02-24-2010, 11:42 AM
Because if you compare game winners it's a blowout. The thing Lebron has trouble doing. BSPN will come up with any stat to try and put Lebron over Kobe.

"Most FGM in the last 22.1 seconds after having scratched your nuts."

Who cares? They're just trying to fill the Lebron bandwagon with casual fans. They don't have to hype Kobe because his game proves it.

prodigy
02-24-2010, 11:49 AM
Because if you compare game winners it's a blowout. The thing Lebron has trouble doing. BSPN will come up with any stat to try and put Lebron over Kobe.


Most people there still pick Kobe over Lebron. So know your facts.

RaiderLakersA's
02-24-2010, 11:56 AM
I hate stats. I hate arguing over the criteria for stats. You can pretty much prove anything if you twist the numbers and criteria enough. It's pointless to hang your hat on stats while the men in question are still palying the game anyway. Proves nothing.

arkanian215
02-24-2010, 12:11 PM
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg

i dont think the 2002-3 is arbitrary at all. 03 was the year lebron entered the league. im sure they want to maximize the sample size here. it wouldn't make much statistical sense if they made it 05-now when you can draw upon the entire "population."

arkanian215
02-24-2010, 12:16 PM
I hate stats. I hate arguing over the criteria for stats. You can pretty much prove anything if you twist the numbers and criteria enough. It's pointless to hang your hat on stats while the men in question are still palying the game anyway. Proves nothing.

i dont see how this "stat" twists anything. it just lays out the situation and counts the number of fgms. still they should have also included fga since if one guy makes 24/100 while the other makes 25/200, there's a difference in how "clutch" they are (assuming being clutch is what they're trying to measure here).

RaiderLakersA's
02-24-2010, 12:22 PM
i dont see how this "stat" twists anything. it just lays out the situation and counts the number of fgms. still they should have also included fga since if one guy makes 24/100 while the other makes 25/200, there's a difference in how "clutch" they are (assuming being clutch is what they're trying to measure here).

In the same breath you say that the "stat" doesn't twist anything, yet you sagaciously point out fga was likely ignored in the assessment. Twist, slant, whatever you want to call it -- stats, and damned stats.

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 12:26 PM
Kobe's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :


1. 01/02/02: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off reb and the jumper)
2. 02/22/02: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater jumper)
3. 03/24/02: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (fade-away with 36 sec)
4. 05/12/02: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs, off reb for the put back)
5. 12/06/02: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
6. 04/04/03: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater jumper)
7. 04/06/03: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (final jumper with 28.6 sec)
8. 12/19/03: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, fade-away)
9. 02/17/04: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
10. 03/03/04: Lakers 96 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao with 22 sec)
11. 03/21/04: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 sec)
12. 04/14/04: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT game-tying 3-pointer for OT, & g-winning 3-pt buzzer beater)
13. 03/13/05: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
14. 11/02/05: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
15. 12/04/05: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
16. 01/07/06: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (game-winning off-the-window shot)
17. 01/12/06: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 sec, & Lebron choking)
18. 04/30/06: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (OT game-tying tear drop for OT, and game-winning jumper)
19. 01/14/08: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
20. 01/09/09: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 sec)
21. 12/04/09: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer over Wade)
22. 12/16/09: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
23. 01/01/10: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
24. 1/13/2010: Lakers - 100 Dallas 95. (Kobe hits fall-away jumper to take 97-95 lead with 28 seconds left)
25. 1/31/10: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper over Allen with 7 sec. left(4 sec. on shot clock)
26. 2/23/10: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 88 (game-winning three-pointer with 4 seconds left)

Lebron's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :

1. Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (21-foot jumper with 0.9 seconds left for the win)
2. April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper with 0.5 seconds left)
3. April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (game-winning 4 foot bank shot with 5 seconds left)
4. May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (layup with 0.9 seconds left)
5. May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (layup with 2.2 seconds left)
6. Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup with 33.6 seconds left)
7. Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup with less than 1 second left)
8. Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs with 7.8 seconds left)
9. Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (19 foot jumper at the buzzer)
10. Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (hit 1 FT with 1.6 seconds left)
11. May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (3 point jumper at the buzzer)
12. Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FTs with 4.1 seconds left)

JoeSchroeduh
02-24-2010, 12:26 PM
Didn't read all the posts, because I'm a lazy B!TCH, but it says since 2002-2003 season because that was LeBron's rookie year... right?

Double_R
02-24-2010, 12:31 PM
Because when the Cavs are down 3, lebron gets layups so his numbers look better

madiaz3
02-24-2010, 12:35 PM
Didn't read all the posts, because I'm a lazy B!TCH, but it says since 2002-2003 season because that was LeBron's rookie year... right?

Nah, his rookie year is 03-04.

arkanian215
02-24-2010, 12:37 PM
In the same breath you say that the "stat" doesn't twist anything, yet you sagaciously point out fga was likely ignored in the assessment. Twist, slant, whatever you want to call it -- stats, and damned stats.

the stat says who made more in a one possession game late in the game. in the context of absolute shots made, it doesn't twist anything. i'm pointing out that none of the stats they've come out with (from what ive seen) deal with percentages rather than absolute values.

arkanian215
02-24-2010, 12:38 PM
Kobe's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :
...

nice where did you get that?

Double_R
02-24-2010, 12:40 PM
I don't think that layups or dunks should count as clutch... I'd like to see the stat where it showed jump shots outside of 10ft... Kobe 21, Vince 19, Dirk 18, ............................Lebron 3

L@ker4Life
02-24-2010, 12:45 PM
There is some link out there that talks about game winning shots and it had LeBron #1 over the last 6 or 7 years. I don't know how LeBron got the "he isn't clutch" label because it is proven not to be true.

It's cause he went through a spell where he wasn't making his FT's at the end of games....I dont know if that is still the case or not.

arkanian215
02-24-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't think that layups or dunks should count as clutch... I'd like to see the stat where it showed jump shots outside of 10ft... Kobe 21, Vince 19, Dirk 18, ............................Lebron 3

really? is it that easy to get to the rim?

Double_R
02-24-2010, 12:54 PM
really? is it that easy to get to the rim?

For Lebron it is... plus the help of Stern and the Refs doesn't hurt.

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 12:58 PM
It started at 2002-2003 because Kobe probably had a ton of game winners that year and they wanted to make the gap between Kobe and LeBron very minimal

I think is the other way around

Raph12
02-24-2010, 12:59 PM
No one's saying Lebron is not clutch at all, he just isn't Kobe, most of those were early in his career, where he'd try to get to the basket for a layup... Now he relies on his jumper too much, which has hurt him that late in games.

Double_R
02-24-2010, 01:00 PM
Raph I like those DH stats you got there, they are nice to look at

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 01:03 PM
Kobe's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :


1. 01/02/02: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off reb and the jumper)
2. 02/22/02: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater jumper)
3. 03/24/02: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (fade-away with 36 sec)
4. 05/12/02: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs, off reb for the put back)
5. 12/06/02: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
6. 04/04/03: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater jumper)
7. 04/06/03: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (final jumper with 28.6 sec)
8. 12/19/03: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, fade-away)
9. 02/17/04: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
10. 03/03/04: Lakers 96 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao with 22 sec)
11. 03/21/04: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 sec)
12. 04/14/04: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT game-tying 3-pointer for OT, & g-winning 3-pt buzzer beater)
13. 03/13/05: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
14. 11/02/05: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
15. 12/04/05: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
16. 01/07/06: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (game-winning off-the-window shot)
17. 01/12/06: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 sec, & Lebron choking)
18. 04/30/06: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (OT game-tying tear drop for OT, and game-winning jumper)
19. 01/14/08: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
20. 01/09/09: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 sec)
21. 12/04/09: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer over Wade)
22. 12/16/09: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
23. 01/01/10: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
24. 1/13/2010: Lakers - 100 Dallas 95. (Kobe hits fall-away jumper to take 97-95 lead with 28 seconds left)
25. 1/31/10: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper over Allen with 7 sec. left(4 sec. on shot clock)
26. 2/23/10: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 88 (game-winning three-pointer with 4 seconds left)

Lebron's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :

1. Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (21-foot jumper with 0.9 seconds left for the win)
2. April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper with 0.5 seconds left)
3. April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (game-winning 4 foot bank shot with 5 seconds left)
4. May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (layup with 0.9 seconds left)
5. May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (layup with 2.2 seconds left)
6. Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup with 33.6 seconds left)
7. Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup with less than 1 second left)
8. Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs with 7.8 seconds left)
9. Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (19 foot jumper at the buzzer)
10. Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (hit 1 FT with 1.6 seconds left)
11. May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (3 point jumper at the buzzer)

I don't know where you got these from but I can already see discrepancies...

For one LeBron hit two free throws against the Heat about a month ago to put the Cavs up one with about 2 seconds left and that isn't there.

You sources don't seem entirely accurate... I'll go with ESPN's.

bigsams50
02-24-2010, 01:08 PM
I don't think that layups or dunks should count as clutch... I'd like to see the stat where it showed jump shots outside of 10ft... Kobe 21, Vince 19, Dirk 18, ............................Lebron 3

Why shouldnt layups or dunks count?

lakerboy
02-24-2010, 01:08 PM
Well if some of you really think LBJ is more clutch than Kobe..

I don't really know. I'm a huge Kobe homer, and I'm a bit biased in a lot of things. But this is one thing you really can't take away from him.

ManRam
02-24-2010, 01:08 PM
Kobe's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :


1. 01/02/02: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off reb and the jumper)
2. 02/22/02: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater jumper)
3. 03/24/02: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (fade-away with 36 sec)
4. 05/12/02: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs, off reb for the put back)
5. 12/06/02: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
6. 04/04/03: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater jumper)
7. 04/06/03: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (final jumper with 28.6 sec)
8. 12/19/03: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, fade-away)
9. 02/17/04: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
10. 03/03/04: Lakers 96 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao with 22 sec)
11. 03/21/04: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 sec)
12. 04/14/04: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT game-tying 3-pointer for OT, & g-winning 3-pt buzzer beater)
13. 03/13/05: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
14. 11/02/05: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
15. 12/04/05: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
16. 01/07/06: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (game-winning off-the-window shot)
17. 01/12/06: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 sec, & Lebron choking)
18. 04/30/06: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (OT game-tying tear drop for OT, and game-winning jumper)
19. 01/14/08: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
20. 01/09/09: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 sec)
21. 12/04/09: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer over Wade)
22. 12/16/09: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
23. 01/01/10: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
24. 1/13/2010: Lakers - 100 Dallas 95. (Kobe hits fall-away jumper to take 97-95 lead with 28 seconds left)
25. 1/31/10: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper over Allen with 7 sec. left(4 sec. on shot clock)
26. 2/23/10: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 88 (game-winning three-pointer with 4 seconds left)

Lebron's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :

1. Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (21-foot jumper with 0.9 seconds left for the win)
2. April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper with 0.5 seconds left)
3. April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (game-winning 4 foot bank shot with 5 seconds left)
4. May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (layup with 0.9 seconds left)
5. May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (layup with 2.2 seconds left)
6. Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup with 33.6 seconds left)
7. Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup with less than 1 second left)
8. Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs with 7.8 seconds left)
9. Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (19 foot jumper at the buzzer)
10. Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (hit 1 FT with 1.6 seconds left)
11. May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (3 point jumper at the buzzer)

Do you have the number of attempts? Has LeBron missed any this year??? Kobe has had a ton of chances, and has capitalized on most (all?) of them. LeBron just hasn't been in many situations where he or anyone has had to hit a game winner. Can we really discredit him for that? You can't hit game winners unless you're in the position to do so...

That's the list I'd kill to see. Attempts and makes.

ManRam
02-24-2010, 01:10 PM
I don't think that layups or dunks should count as clutch... I'd like to see the stat where it showed jump shots outside of 10ft... Kobe 21, Vince 19, Dirk 18, ............................Lebron 3

A basket is a basket. If you can get a layup or dunk, you're crazy not to do so. It's a much higher percentage shot.

Sorry, but this post is crazy.

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 01:13 PM
I don't know where you got these from but I can already see discrepancies...

For one LeBron hit two free throws against the Heat about a month ago to put the Cavs up one with about 2 seconds left and that isn't there.

You sources don't seem entirely accurate... I'll go with ESPN's.

Oh that's cause the stats were put on since 01/01/10 and I added Kobe's last 3 game winners, you can add Lebron's last game winner and it still wouldn't be close. But of course your going based on what BSPN says that's not a surprize coming from a LeCrab dick ryder.



I don't even refer to them as "The Cavs" anymore. I call them "The Lebrons" because most of their fans aren't even fans of the Cavs franchise, rather they are butt licking Lebronites who have fallen prey to the manipulation of Nike, Gatorade and ESPN. How many of these so called "Cavs fans" will still root for the Cavs once Lebron goes to another team next year? How many even rooted for the Cavs before Lebron got there. 80% of their fan base are butt licking Lebronites, so I now refer to them as their name truly should be........"THE LEBRONS"

bigsams50
02-24-2010, 01:15 PM
Oh that's cause the stats were put on since 01/01/10 and I added Kobe's last 3 game winners, you can add Lebron's last game winner and it still wouldn't be close. But of course your going based on what BSPN says that's not a surprize coming from a LeCrab dick ryder.


This ***** really gettin old. If someone sides with Lebron on an argument then their dick ryders, if they side with Kobe their dick ryders. **** man yall need to calm that **** down.

kjdills13
02-24-2010, 01:15 PM
the funny part about this stat is that Lebron wasnt in the league in 02/03 his rookie season was 03/04 lol so that stat wasnt ment to compare lebron vs kobe it was meerly just a random year they decided to start the statistic. lol

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 01:17 PM
Do you have the number of attempts? Has LeBron missed any this year??? Kobe has had a ton of chances, and has capitalized on most (all?) of them. LeBron just hasn't been in many situations where he or anyone has had to hit a game winner. Can we really discredit him for that? You can't hit game winners unless you're in the position to do so...

That's the list I'd kill to see. Attempts and makes.

All all I know is that Kobe is 5 of 8 this year. but it's BSPN so I don't know how true that is.

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 01:18 PM
This ***** really gettin old. If someone sides with Lebron on an argument then their dick ryders, if they side with Kobe their dick ryders. **** man yall need to calm that **** down.

lol I agree, I was just returing the favor!

Teeboy1487
02-24-2010, 01:24 PM
If I had to choose between the two for the last shot, I would take Kobe 10 out of 10. My opinion of course. Kobe is the clutchest player in the league no matter how anyone spins it. Also my opinion :) .

Raph12
02-24-2010, 01:28 PM
Do you have the number of attempts? Has LeBron missed any this year??? Kobe has had a ton of chances, and has capitalized on most (all?) of them. LeBron just hasn't been in many situations where he or anyone has had to hit a game winner. Can we really discredit him for that? You can't hit game winners unless you're in the position to do so...

That's the list I'd kill to see. Attempts and makes.

Lebron missed 3 threes in the final seconds to beat the Nuggets, that's a pretty bad stat on it's own lol.


Raph I like those DH stats you got there, they are nice to look at

Thnx bro, just trying to show people how his stats look after he started playing as the #1 option on the Magic.

albertc86
02-24-2010, 01:30 PM
I'd be willing to bet that half of LeBron's FGM at the end of the game are from driving to the basket. Can't say the same for Kobe. As another poster mentioned --- these stats didn't mention if his shots altered the game.

ko8e24
02-24-2010, 01:46 PM
In the final mintues down by 7 you can still win. DUHHHHH!!!!

BTW- I never once seen Lebron Pad his stats. Not once.

:laugh:

ko8e24
02-24-2010, 01:49 PM
I don't know where you got these from but I can already see discrepancies...

For one LeBron hit two free throws against the Heat about a month ago to put the Cavs up one with about 2 seconds left and that isn't there.

You sources don't seem entirely accurate... I'll go with ESPN's.



:laugh2: We're talking about actual field goals made here, not gifts from the refs in the final seconds.

And OF COURSE you'll go with ESPN, that's like the bible or something for yall, lmao!

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 02:22 PM
:laugh2: We're talking about actual field goals made here, not gifts from the refs in the final seconds.

And OF COURSE you'll go with ESPN, that's like the bible or something for yall, lmao!

Why do free throws not count? They give the team a lead and with all the pressure from standing at the line i'd say they are more than clutch.

You really are a funny one aren't you...

A little stat comes up proving LeBron is a clutch player (something you Kobe dick riders hate to admit) and you have to get all defensive. I've said it countless times before... If I need a basket with 10 seconds left I take Kobe because there is no one better at doing what he does with that amount of time left... I'll take LeBron for the first 11 minutes and 50 seconds of the 4th because there is no one better at doing what he does in that time period.

arkanian215
02-24-2010, 02:22 PM
For Lebron it is... plus the help of Stern and the Refs doesn't hurt.

you're saying those shots shouldn't count because he's good at getting to the basket?

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 02:39 PM
hahaha yeeee LEBRON!

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 02:42 PM
Why do free throws not count? They give the team a lead and with all the pressure from standing at the line i'd say they are more than clutch.

You really are a funny one aren't you...

A little stat comes up proving LeBron is a clutch player (something you Kobe dick riders hate to admit) and you have to get all defensive. I've said it countless times before... If I need a basket with 10 seconds left I take Kobe because there is no one better at doing what he does with that amount of time left... I'll take LeBron for the first 11 minutes and 50 seconds of the 4th because there is no one better at doing what he does in that time period.


the stat speciafically says FGM also known as FIELD GOALS MADE so i dont know why yall are talking about free throws, but those count as points too. Please dont tell me that the league gives LeBron "gifts" and doesnt give Kobe anything. Kobe gets more gifts then LeBron does FOR SURE.

SO just becuz Kobe makes a stupid little mean face with his chin doesnt mean he has the most killer instinct.

kobe IS the most clutch player in the nba but u guys underrate LeBrons killer instinct to. you know how many games hes taken over late in the game? you kno how many games hes had stretches where hes scored or assisted on like ALL of the cavs points? just becuz it always doesnt come in the last 5 seconds doesnt means hes not clutch. and just becuz he doesnt have a ****** chin face doesnt mean hes not clutch. when you take over the end of the fourth quarter by having a say in pretty much ALL your teams points, thats killer instinct, thats coming up big when ur team needs u, and THAT is clutch

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 02:55 PM
:laugh2: We're talking about actual field goals made here, not gifts from the refs in the final seconds.

And OF COURSE you'll go with ESPN, that's like the bible or something for yall, lmao!

ESPN is what Judas was to Jesus they're only here to cause confusion! Kobe is still better

Lakersfanla24
02-24-2010, 03:05 PM
interesting stat, its funny they started it in 03-04 cuz if they woulda done it for careers KB would be blowing everyone away. Even espn's golden child :rolleyes:

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 03:13 PM
the stat speciafically says FGM also known as FIELD GOALS MADE so i dont know why yall are talking about free throws, but those count as points too. Please dont tell me that the league gives LeBron "gifts" and doesnt give Kobe anything. Kobe gets more gifts then LeBron does FOR SURE.

SO just becuz Kobe makes a stupid little mean face with his chin doesnt mean he has the most killer instinct.

kobe IS the most clutch player in the nba but u guys underrate LeBrons killer instinct to. you know how many games hes taken over late in the game? you kno how many games hes had stretches where hes scored or assisted on like ALL of the cavs points? just becuz it always doesnt come in the last 5 seconds doesnt means hes not clutch. and just becuz he doesnt have a ****** chin face doesnt mean hes not clutch. when you take over the end of the fourth quarter by having a say in pretty much ALL your teams points, thats killer instinct, thats coming up big when ur team needs u, and THAT is clutch

Yeah I know... I was only using the free throw argument because someone bought up a list of Kobe's game winners and they included free throws.

Lakerfan In NY
02-24-2010, 03:14 PM
Come on. Its ESPN. The master of using meaningless stats. "Most FGM in final 24 seconds of a one possesion game?" shouldn't it be more like "most game winning FGM w/ under 24 seconds? b/c the way i look at that, w/ 24 seconds LBJ or Kobe scores but there still maybe time left on the clock were someone has the opportunity to make a buzzer beating, game winnning shot (ie did anyone see Melo VS LBJ). Don't always believe random stat espn puts out.

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 03:15 PM
ESPN is what Judas was to Jesus they're only here to cause confusion! Kobe is still better

Yeah, you Kobe fans can keep telling yourselves that...


interesting stat, its funny they started it in 03-04 cuz if they woulda done it for careers KB would be blowing everyone away. Even espn's golden child :rolleyes:

Yes, because Kobe has been in the league twice as long...

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 03:16 PM
Yeah, you Kobe fans can keep telling yourselves that...



Yes, because Kobe has been in the league twice as long...

It doesn't change the fact that Kobe is the all time NBA leader in gome winning shots.:)

D-Amazins
02-24-2010, 03:28 PM
because LeBron pads stats!... if it's the final minutes of a game and the cavs are down by 7 or 9 and have no chance of winning, Bron's still out there charging to the hole. He gets more buckets, but not necessarily winning ones and i can imagine why. Did you see the all star game?
i'm not going to hate i just want to rile some people up... opinions?

This is just FAIL. LEARN TO READ BEFORE YOU POST.

D-Amazins
02-24-2010, 03:28 PM
I don't think that layups or dunks should count as clutch... I'd like to see the stat where it showed jump shots outside of 10ft... Kobe 21, Vince 19, Dirk 18, ............................Lebron 3

Who gives 1 ****** whether it was a 15 ft jumpshot or a layup...2 points is 2 points.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 03:54 PM
That's just misleading they should just compare there game winners

Agreed...But still If I had to choose from Kobe and LeBron...I got Kobe. I mean don't get me wrong LeBron is Amazing...but Kobe is just one crazy clutch ***** dude. :)

JabberJaw
02-24-2010, 04:00 PM
Just saw a stat on NBA TV....Kobe Bryant has 14 game winning shots since 2002-03 and that leads the league.

iggypop123
02-24-2010, 04:09 PM
well to add to the ft debate or not to include we should also see about including FTA versus FTA Made to contirbue to this "clutch" debate

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 04:11 PM
Just saw a stat on NBA TV....Kobe Bryant has 14 game winning shots since 2002-03 and that leads the league.

You can look up all these game winners on youtube.

1. 12/06/02: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
2. 04/04/03: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater jumper)
3. 04/06/03: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (final jumper with 28.6 sec)
4. 12/19/03: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, fade-away)
5. 02/17/04: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
6. 03/03/04: Lakers 96 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao with 22 sec)
7. 03/21/04: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 sec)
8. 04/14/04: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT game-tying 3-pointer for OT, & g-winning 3-pt buzzer beater)
9. 03/13/05: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (pump fake jumper for the win)
10. 11/02/05: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
11. 12/04/05: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
12. 01/07/06: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (game-winning off-the-window shot)
13. 01/12/06: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 sec.)
14. 04/30/06: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (OT game-tying tear drop for OT, and game-winning jumper)
15. 01/14/08: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
16. 01/09/09: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 sec)
17. 12/04/09: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer over Wade)
18. 12/16/09: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (game-winning buzzer-beating jumper over Bell)
19. 01/01/10: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (game-winning buzzer-beater 3-pointer 4.1 seconds left and 0.1 remaining)
20. 1/13/2010: Lakers - 100 Dallas 95. (Kobe hits fall-away jumper to take 97-95 lead with 28 seconds left)
21. 1/31/10: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (game-winning jumper over Allen with 7 sec. left(4 sec. on shot clock)
22. 2/23/10: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 88 (game-winning three-pointer with 4 seconds left)

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 04:14 PM
http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/Kobe_Bryant_and_Lebron_James_in_this_funny_photo.j pg

Thats all i gotta say :)

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 04:47 PM
http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/Kobe_Bryant_and_Lebron_James_in_this_funny_photo.j pg

Thats all i gotta say :)

Lol

Look how old that **** is...

The torch has well and truly changed hands.

DCB/LAL
02-24-2010, 04:51 PM
This ***** really gettin old. If someone sides with Lebron on an argument then their dick ryders, if they side with Kobe their dick ryders. **** man yall need to calm that **** down.

Damn and neither Laker or Cavs fans can give you S**t cause your team gives BOTH teams fits.....nice. lol

stawka
02-24-2010, 04:54 PM
because LeBron pads stats!... if it's the final minutes of a game and the cavs are down by 7 or 9 and have no chance of winning, Bron's still out there charging to the hole. He gets more buckets, but not necessarily winning ones and i can imagine why. Did you see the all star game?
i'm not going to hate i just want to rile some people up... opinions?

Watch the cavs vs lakers on Christmas game again. Clearly you'll see the game was over, but Kobe was running his PPG up. Nice try, didn't work though :)

DCB/LAL
02-24-2010, 04:54 PM
Lol

Look how old that **** is...

The torch has well and truly changed hands.

The Torch wont change hands till Lebron wins a championship cause winning championships is all that matters. :D


Give me the guy who wins Rings.

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 04:55 PM
Damn and neither Laker or Cavs fans can give you S**t cause your team gives BOTH teams fits.....nice. lol

Well Lakers and Cavs are playing for something more then to just make the playoffs

bluefire7002
02-24-2010, 04:55 PM
Kobe's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :


Lebron's Game Winners since 2002-2003 season :

1. Mar. 22, 2006: Cavaliers 120 - Bobcats 118 (21-foot jumper with 0.9 seconds left for the win)
2. April 10, 2006: Cavaliers 103 - Hornets 101 (jumper with 0.5 seconds left)
3. April 28, 2006: Cavaliers 97 - Wizards 96 (game-winning 4 foot bank shot with 5 seconds left)
4. May 03, 2006: Cavaliers 121 - Wizards 120 (layup with 0.9 seconds left)
5. May 31, 2007: Cavaliers 109 - Pistons 107 (layup with 2.2 seconds left)
6. Jan. 17, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Spurs 88 (layup with 33.6 seconds left)
7. Jan. 30, 2008: Cavaliers 84 - TrailBlazers 83 (layup with less than 1 second left)
8. Feb. 22, 2008: Cavaliers 90 - Wizards 89 (game-winning FTs with 7.8 seconds left)
9. Jan. 23, 2009: Cavaliers 106 - Warriors 105 (19 foot jumper at the buzzer)
10. Mar. 01, 2009: Cavaliers 88 - Hawks 87 (hit 1 FT with 1.6 seconds left)
11. May 22, 2009: Cavaliers 96 - Magic 95 (3 point jumper at the buzzer)
12. Jan. 25, 2010: Cavaliers 92 - Heat 91 (game-winning FTs with 4.1 seconds left)

LOL.. theres like 4 game winners in there because of FTs.. wonder why

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 05:03 PM
this is the last year that the discussion will even be kobe and lebron. this is the last year that kobe will be considered second best player. next year its 1. lebron 2. durant

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 05:05 PM
this is the last year that the discussion will even be kobe and lebron. this is the last year that kobe will be considered second best player. next year its 1. lebron 2. durant

And next year Kobe will be winning another ring.

sp1derm00
02-24-2010, 05:08 PM
this is the last year that the discussion will even be kobe and lebron. this is the last year that kobe will be considered second best player. next year its 1. lebron 2. durant

I don't think so.

This year Kobe's been playing with a broken finger, taped up like crazy and he's still playing at an exceptionally high level. If you watch Kobe's game at all, he doesn't rely on athleticism much anymore, so the decline won't be steep.

A healthy finger that's not all taped up, that actually has FEELING when you release the ball, and you've got a Kobe that will continue to put up great stats.

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 05:11 PM
Lol

Look how old that **** is...

The torch has well and truly changed hands.

The Larry O'Brien hasn't. Lebron hasn't even touched it yet, he got to the dance to take a look at it and got swept out.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 05:11 PM
my opinion isnt neccesarily just based on kobes decline, its based on Kevin Durants ability and the fact that i think hes becoming a better player then Kobe

Padres Son
02-24-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm just surprised that anyone watches ESPN for anything other than live sports. Why?

RaysFan
02-24-2010, 05:13 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Zefflin
02-24-2010, 05:19 PM
Oh man. :sigh:

PLAYERS FAN
02-24-2010, 05:24 PM
this is the last year that the discussion will even be kobe and lebron. this is the last year that kobe will be considered second best player. next year its 1. lebron 2. durant

The Allen Iverson fans can't help it to see Kobe is still relevant as who is the best in the league:laugh2: Tmac and Vince Carter fans included:D

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 05:26 PM
And next year Kobe will be winning another ring.

haha yup :laugh:

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 05:27 PM
The Allen Iverson fans can't help it to see Kobe is still relevant as who is the best in the league Tmac and Vince Carter fans included


regardless of my name i wouldnt consider myself a die hard ai fan and follower couldnt really care less

i think its funnier actually that kobe fans cant help to see that kobe isnt mj and wont be great til hes 40

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 05:30 PM
regardless of my name i wouldnt consider myself a die hard ai fan and follower couldnt really care less

i think its funnier actually that kobe fans cant help to see that kobe isnt mj and wont be great til hes 40

Come on Madame Cleo.

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 05:33 PM
regardless of my name i wouldnt consider myself a die hard ai fan and follower couldnt really care less

i think its funnier actually that kobe fans cant help to see that kobe isnt mj and wont be great til hes 40

hAHAHA! U ARE SO BITTER!!! NOW YOU DON'T CARE CAUSE HE SUCKS!HAHAHA AND NOBODY WILL BE BETTER THEN JORDAN, NOT WADE, NOT KOBE, NOT LEBRON, NOT DURANT AND DEFINALTY NOT IVERSON.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 05:33 PM
i kinda admit that i am sad that kobe isnt as great as he was a couple years ago. that was fun to watch. even tho i hated him as a suns fan i damn respected the man

Bruno
02-24-2010, 05:33 PM
I don't understand why Laker fans feel the need to jump to Bryants defense every time his detractors discredit him. It happens all the time, and it always gives a thread that doesn't deserve that much attention five + pages of posts, its absurd.

Lakers fans- recognize that while we are the CHAMPS, and while Bryant is the reigning finals MVP, we dont have to defend ANYTHING. We point to the banner in Staples and smile, thats it. This kind of bickering should be saved for the years when we aren't trying to go back to back. The detractors can't rewrite history, they can only bicker and roll around in their own bile.

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 05:34 PM
i kinda admit that i am sad that kobe isnt as great as he was a couple years ago. that was fun to watch. even tho i hated him as a suns fan i damn respected the man

You just liked him more then because you guys (Suns) always kicked our butts.

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 05:35 PM
The Torch wont change hands till Lebron wins a championship cause winning championships is all that matters. :D


Give me the guy who wins Rings.


The Larry O'Brien hasn't. Lebron hasn't even touched it yet, he got to the dance to take a look at it and got swept out.

O...K...

So according to you, you can't be the best player in the league until you've won a championship... Another flawed argument by a Lakers fan. Nothing changes...

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 05:35 PM
hAHAHA! U ARE SO BITTER!!! NOW YOU DON'T CARE CAUSE HE SUCKS!HAHAHA AND NOBODY WILL BE BETTER THEN JORDAN

no im honjestly not. the only reason why i put that is becuz hes a little man that plays with heart and thats kinda like me. im a suns fan. steve nash is my dude. kobe still wins against him to but im just sayin...

JNA17
02-24-2010, 05:35 PM
You just liked him more then because you guys (Suns) always kicked our butts.

exactly, now that the shoe is on the other foot, he's hated again.

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 05:36 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

There it is... In black and white proof.

/thread

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 05:37 PM
Saying that Kobe fans will still find another way to try and prove these statistics wrong...

JNA17
02-24-2010, 05:38 PM
This is probably the first time i have ever seen JordanBulls start a kobe and lebron bait thread :facepalm:

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 05:39 PM
Got dang! A.i sucked so much this dude had to cheer for the suns, now he's stuck! I think he's suns wagon ryde is up and looking to jump on the cavs banwagon.

I wouln't change my sig just yet if i were you cause lebron ain't gonna be a cavalier and ur gonna get stuck with all the lebron banwagon fans again

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 05:46 PM
Saying that Kobe fans will still find another way to try and prove these statistics wrong...

TRY? No im gunna.
101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron..
1.3-Time NBA Champion
2.An 81 Point Game
3.Mid-range game
4.Three Point Shooting
5.6 Time All Defensive First Team
6.2 Time All Defensive Second Team
7.NBA Slam Dunk Champion
8.Career 84% Free Throw shooter
9.Killer Instinct
10.Great clutch performer
11.Will to win
12.Greater Career Resume
13.Greater Scorer
14.Greater Defender
15.Greater Winner
16.5 NBA Finals Appearances
17.62 points in 3 quarters
18.First player since 1964 to score 45 or more points in four consecutive games
19.65 points vs. Blazers
20.Then 50 points the next game against the Twolves
21.Then another 60 the next game against the Grizzlies
22.10 50-plus point games in one season (2006-2007)
23.Ability to play through pain
24.5 Career 60-plus point games
25.152 Playoff games played & Counting
26.3-Peat
27.Because President Barack Obama said so
28.12 Three Pointers in one game
29.Lebronís poor jumpshot
30.Lebronís bad free throw shooting
31.Lebron getting sweapt in the 2007 NBA Finals
32.Creativity
33.Style
34.Jumping over Aston Martin
35.Jumping over Pool of Snakes
36.Creator & Founder of Ankle Insurance
37.Youngest ever in an All-Star game
38.Went to the Playoffs with Smush Parker & Kwame Brown in his starting lineup
39.The reason Team USA won a Gold in 2008
40.Work Ethic
41.Higher basketball IQ
42.9 game streak of 40 or more points
43.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 5/10/2000
44.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 2006
45.An All Around Game with no weaknesses
46.Smaller than Lebron, yet still more effective
47.Not as athletic as Lebron, yet still more effective
48.Turnaround Jumper
49.Post up game
50.Game 2 2004 NBA Finals
51.Kobe will win a couple more championships
52.Lebronís outside shooting range will fail to improve
53.League will clamp down on Lebronís ‚ÄúCrab‚ÄĚ dribbling
54.Defenses will begin to adjust to Lebronís offense and lack of outside shooting ability
55.Game Winner against Spurs in Playoffs 2002
56.Better offensive moves
57.2nd G.O.A.TÖ. right below Jordan
58.Level of Intensity
59.Overall consistency for 13 NBA seasons
60.2nd Greatest Scorer in NBA history next to Wilt Chamberlain
61.Holds record for most 3-Pointers in one half (8)
62.35.4 points per game in the 2006 season (8th highest in NBA history)
63.8-time All Defensive Selection
64.10-Time All-NBA selection
65.2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
66.11-time NBA All-Star
67.2-time scoring champion
68.1-time NBA MVP
69.Better ball handling skills
70.Better passing ability
71.Better court vision
72.He has no tendencies in his game
73.Experience
74.Heís an Assassin
75.Leadership
76.Competitive drive
77.A Majority of NBA players and retired players say he is!
78.Tracy McGrady said so
79.Elton Brand said so
80.Pat Riley said so
81.Gregg Popovich said so
82.Shaquille Oíneal said so
83.Toughness
84.Hunger
85.Lebron plays in the weak Eastern Conference
86.Kobe plays in the strong Western Conference
87.Jordan like qualities
88.Jordan like skills
89.Lebron got better after he learned from Kobe with Team USA during the summer
90.Kobeís shoeline is way better!
91.Durability
92.Playoff experience
93.Playoff success
94.Part of 1 of 3 NBA Dynasties!
95.The Fadeaway Jumper
96.Beating Double Teams
97.Who else would you rather have the ball with the game on the line?
98.Kobe beat Lebron James with 9 fingers
99.61 points in MSG (all time record)
100.Most Popular Athlete in China
101.Unlimited Shooting Range

Im just saying :)

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 05:47 PM
Saying that Kobe fans will still find another way to try and prove these statistics wrong...

Come on man, you are saying the tourch has been passed because of regular season awards and stats. Lebron doesn't have a ring, if he never gets one, he won't even be in the convo of one of the best ever.

Would you still be a Cavs fan if Lebron left?

JNA17
02-24-2010, 05:48 PM
TRY? No im gunna.
101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron..
1.3-Time NBA Champion
2.An 81 Point Game
3.Mid-range game
4.Three Point Shooting
5.6 Time All Defensive First Team
6.2 Time All Defensive Second Team
7.NBA Slam Dunk Champion
8.Career 84% Free Throw shooter
9.Killer Instinct
10.Great clutch performer
11.Will to win
12.Greater Career Resume
13.Greater Scorer
14.Greater Defender
15.Greater Winner
16.5 NBA Finals Appearances
17.62 points in 3 quarters
18.First player since 1964 to score 45 or more points in four consecutive games
19.65 points vs. Blazers
20.Then 50 points the next game against the Twolves
21.Then another 60 the next game against the Grizzlies
22.10 50-plus point games in one season (2006-2007)
23.Ability to play through pain
24.5 Career 60-plus point games
25.152 Playoff games played & Counting
26.3-Peat
27.Because President Barack Obama said so
28.12 Three Pointers in one game
29.Lebronís poor jumpshot
30.Lebronís bad free throw shooting
31.Lebron getting sweapt in the 2007 NBA Finals
32.Creativity
33.Style
34.Jumping over Aston Martin
35.Jumping over Pool of Snakes
36.Creator & Founder of Ankle Insurance
37.Youngest ever in an All-Star game
38.Went to the Playoffs with Smush Parker & Kwame Brown in his starting lineup
39.The reason Team USA won a Gold in 2008
40.Work Ethic
41.Higher basketball IQ
42.9 game streak of 40 or more points
43.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 5/10/2000
44.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 2006
45.An All Around Game with no weaknesses
46.Smaller than Lebron, yet still more effective
47.Not as athletic as Lebron, yet still more effective
48.Turnaround Jumper
49.Post up game
50.Game 2 2004 NBA Finals
51.Kobe will win a couple more championships
52.Lebronís outside shooting range will fail to improve
53.League will clamp down on Lebronís ‚ÄúCrab‚ÄĚ dribbling
54.Defenses will begin to adjust to Lebronís offense and lack of outside shooting ability
55.Game Winner against Spurs in Playoffs 2002
56.Better offensive moves
57.2nd G.O.A.TÖ. right below Jordan
58.Level of Intensity
59.Overall consistency for 13 NBA seasons
60.2nd Greatest Scorer in NBA history next to Wilt Chamberlain
61.Holds record for most 3-Pointers in one half (8)
62.35.4 points per game in the 2006 season (8th highest in NBA history)
63.8-time All Defensive Selection
64.10-Time All-NBA selection
65.2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
66.11-time NBA All-Star
67.2-time scoring champion
68.1-time NBA MVP
69.Better ball handling skills
70.Better passing ability
71.Better court vision
72.He has no tendencies in his game
73.Experience
74.Heís an Assassin
75.Leadership
76.Competitive drive
77.A Majority of NBA players and retired players say he is!
78.Tracy McGrady said so
79.Elton Brand said so
80.Pat Riley said so
81.Gregg Popovich said so
82.Shaquille Oíneal said so
83.Toughness
84.Hunger
85.Lebron plays in the weak Eastern Conference
86.Kobe plays in the strong Western Conference
87.Jordan like qualities
88.Jordan like skills
89.Lebron got better after he learned from Kobe with Team USA during the summer
90.Kobeís shoeline is way better!
91.Durability
92.Playoff experience
93.Playoff success
94.Part of 1 of 3 NBA Dynasties!
95.The Fadeaway Jumper
96.Beating Double Teams
97.Who else would you rather have the ball with the game on the line?
98.Kobe beat Lebron James with 9 fingers
99.61 points in MSG (all time record)
100.Most Popular Athlete in China
101.Unlimited Shooting Range

Im just saying :)

that's it?

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 05:48 PM
sorry i meant to put 4-time nba champ :)

G-Funk
02-24-2010, 05:49 PM
There it is... In black and white proof.

/thread

That just proofs who's not afraid to take the last shot and who looks to get bailed out.

JNA17
02-24-2010, 05:50 PM
sorry i meant to put 4-time nba champ :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7luMp6lb9M

bluefire7002
02-24-2010, 05:53 PM
TRY? No im gunna.
101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron..
1.3-Time NBA Champion
2.An 81 Point Game
3.Mid-range game
4.Three Point Shooting
5.6 Time All Defensive First Team
6.2 Time All Defensive Second Team
7.NBA Slam Dunk Champion
8.Career 84% Free Throw shooter
9.Killer Instinct
10.Great clutch performer
11.Will to win
12.Greater Career Resume
13.Greater Scorer
14.Greater Defender
15.Greater Winner
16.5 NBA Finals Appearances
17.62 points in 3 quarters
18.First player since 1964 to score 45 or more points in four consecutive games
19.65 points vs. Blazers
20.Then 50 points the next game against the Twolves
21.Then another 60 the next game against the Grizzlies
22.10 50-plus point games in one season (2006-2007)
23.Ability to play through pain
24.5 Career 60-plus point games
25.152 Playoff games played & Counting
26.3-Peat
27.Because President Barack Obama said so
28.12 Three Pointers in one game
29.Lebronís poor jumpshot
30.Lebronís bad free throw shooting
31.Lebron getting sweapt in the 2007 NBA Finals
32.Creativity
33.Style
34.Jumping over Aston Martin
35.Jumping over Pool of Snakes
36.Creator & Founder of Ankle Insurance
37.Youngest ever in an All-Star game
38.Went to the Playoffs with Smush Parker & Kwame Brown in his starting lineup
39.The reason Team USA won a Gold in 2008
40.Work Ethic
41.Higher basketball IQ
42.9 game streak of 40 or more points
43.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 5/10/2000
44.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 2006
45.An All Around Game with no weaknesses
46.Smaller than Lebron, yet still more effective
47.Not as athletic as Lebron, yet still more effective
48.Turnaround Jumper
49.Post up game
50.Game 2 2004 NBA Finals
51.Kobe will win a couple more championships
52.Lebronís outside shooting range will fail to improve
53.League will clamp down on Lebronís ‚ÄúCrab‚ÄĚ dribbling
54.Defenses will begin to adjust to Lebronís offense and lack of outside shooting ability
55.Game Winner against Spurs in Playoffs 2002
56.Better offensive moves
57.2nd G.O.A.TÖ. right below Jordan
58.Level of Intensity
59.Overall consistency for 13 NBA seasons
60.2nd Greatest Scorer in NBA history next to Wilt Chamberlain
61.Holds record for most 3-Pointers in one half (8)
62.35.4 points per game in the 2006 season (8th highest in NBA history)
63.8-time All Defensive Selection
64.10-Time All-NBA selection
65.2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
66.11-time NBA All-Star
67.2-time scoring champion
68.1-time NBA MVP
69.Better ball handling skills
70.Better passing ability
71.Better court vision
72.He has no tendencies in his game
73.Experience
74.Heís an Assassin
75.Leadership
76.Competitive drive
77.A Majority of NBA players and retired players say he is!
78.Tracy McGrady said so
79.Elton Brand said so
80.Pat Riley said so
81.Gregg Popovich said so
82.Shaquille Oíneal said so
83.Toughness
84.Hunger
85.Lebron plays in the weak Eastern Conference
86.Kobe plays in the strong Western Conference
87.Jordan like qualities
88.Jordan like skills
89.Lebron got better after he learned from Kobe with Team USA during the summer
90.Kobeís shoeline is way better!
91.Durability
92.Playoff experience
93.Playoff success
94.Part of 1 of 3 NBA Dynasties!
95.The Fadeaway Jumper
96.Beating Double Teams
97.Who else would you rather have the ball with the game on the line?
98.Kobe beat Lebron James with 9 fingers
99.61 points in MSG (all time record)
100.Most Popular Athlete in China
101.Unlimited Shooting Range

Im just saying :)

LOL :clap::clap:

BALLER R
02-24-2010, 05:54 PM
Do you have the number of attempts? Has LeBron missed any this year??? Kobe has had a ton of chances, and has capitalized on most (all?) of them. LeBron just hasn't been in many situations where he or anyone has had to hit a game winner. Can we really discredit him for that? You can't hit game winners unless you're in the position to do so...

That's the list I'd kill to see. Attempts and makes.

Yes he has because i remember a few games ago against denver he had a chance to win the game and he missed

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 06:05 PM
You just liked him more then because you guys (Suns) always kicked our butts.


i never said i liked him. i said i respected him. and i still do. how does saying i hate him mean i like him. wtf?

cheezinmypocket
02-24-2010, 06:07 PM
[New ESPN Stat: Lebron James/Kobe Bryant Related]

Could we get a mod to change the title of this thread? It is really misleading.

Oh yeah... a mod started this.

Chacarron
02-24-2010, 06:07 PM
TRY? No im gunna.
101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron..
1.3-Time NBA Champion
2.An 81 Point Game
3.Mid-range game
4.Three Point Shooting
5.6 Time All Defensive First Team
6.2 Time All Defensive Second Team
7.NBA Slam Dunk Champion
8.Career 84% Free Throw shooter
9.Killer Instinct
10.Great clutch performer
11.Will to win
12.Greater Career Resume
13.Greater Scorer
14.Greater Defender
15.Greater Winner
16.5 NBA Finals Appearances
17.62 points in 3 quarters
18.First player since 1964 to score 45 or more points in four consecutive games
19.65 points vs. Blazers
20.Then 50 points the next game against the Twolves
21.Then another 60 the next game against the Grizzlies
22.10 50-plus point games in one season (2006-2007)
23.Ability to play through pain
24.5 Career 60-plus point games
25.152 Playoff games played & Counting
26.3-Peat
27.Because President Barack Obama said so
28.12 Three Pointers in one game
29.Lebronís poor jumpshot
30.Lebronís bad free throw shooting
31.Lebron getting sweapt in the 2007 NBA Finals
32.Creativity
33.Style
34.Jumping over Aston Martin
35.Jumping over Pool of Snakes
36.Creator & Founder of Ankle Insurance
37.Youngest ever in an All-Star game
38.Went to the Playoffs with Smush Parker & Kwame Brown in his starting lineup
39.The reason Team USA won a Gold in 2008
40.Work Ethic
41.Higher basketball IQ
42.9 game streak of 40 or more points
43.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 5/10/2000
44.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 2006
45.An All Around Game with no weaknesses
46.Smaller than Lebron, yet still more effective
47.Not as athletic as Lebron, yet still more effective
48.Turnaround Jumper
49.Post up game
50.Game 2 2004 NBA Finals
51.Kobe will win a couple more championships
52.Lebronís outside shooting range will fail to improve
53.League will clamp down on Lebronís ‚ÄúCrab‚ÄĚ dribbling
54.Defenses will begin to adjust to Lebronís offense and lack of outside shooting ability
55.Game Winner against Spurs in Playoffs 2002
56.Better offensive moves
57.2nd G.O.A.TÖ. right below Jordan
58.Level of Intensity
59.Overall consistency for 13 NBA seasons
60.2nd Greatest Scorer in NBA history next to Wilt Chamberlain
61.Holds record for most 3-Pointers in one half (8)
62.35.4 points per game in the 2006 season (8th highest in NBA history)
63.8-time All Defensive Selection
64.10-Time All-NBA selection
65.2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
66.11-time NBA All-Star
67.2-time scoring champion
68.1-time NBA MVP
69.Better ball handling skills
70.Better passing ability
71.Better court vision
72.He has no tendencies in his game
73.Experience
74.Heís an Assassin
75.Leadership
76.Competitive drive
77.A Majority of NBA players and retired players say he is!
78.Tracy McGrady said so
79.Elton Brand said so
80.Pat Riley said so
81.Gregg Popovich said so
82.Shaquille Oíneal said so
83.Toughness
84.Hunger
85.Lebron plays in the weak Eastern Conference
86.Kobe plays in the strong Western Conference
87.Jordan like qualities
88.Jordan like skills
89.Lebron got better after he learned from Kobe with Team USA during the summer
90.Kobeís shoeline is way better!
91.Durability
92.Playoff experience
93.Playoff success
94.Part of 1 of 3 NBA Dynasties!
95.The Fadeaway Jumper
96.Beating Double Teams
97.Who else would you rather have the ball with the game on the line?
98.Kobe beat Lebron James with 9 fingers
99.61 points in MSG (all time record)
100.Most Popular Athlete in China
101.Unlimited Shooting Range

Im just saying :)

:speechless: Wow, was this really necessary? You are just making US, LAKERS FANS (not just kobe fans), look so dumb. I appreaciate your effort in posting that, but I just think it wasn't necessary. Lebron can win all the MVPs in the world, except the Finals MVP.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 06:12 PM
TRY? No im gunna.
101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron..
1.3-Time NBA Champion
2.An 81 Point Game
3.Mid-range game
4.Three Point Shooting
5.6 Time All Defensive First Team
6.2 Time All Defensive Second Team
7.NBA Slam Dunk Champion
8.Career 84% Free Throw shooter
9.Killer Instinct
10.Great clutch performer
11.Will to win
12.Greater Career Resume
13.Greater Scorer
14.Greater Defender
15.Greater Winner
16.5 NBA Finals Appearances
17.62 points in 3 quarters
18.First player since 1964 to score 45 or more points in four consecutive games
19.65 points vs. Blazers
20.Then 50 points the next game against the Twolves
21.Then another 60 the next game against the Grizzlies
22.10 50-plus point games in one season (2006-2007)
23.Ability to play through pain
24.5 Career 60-plus point games
25.152 Playoff games played & Counting
26.3-Peat
27.Because President Barack Obama said so
28.12 Three Pointers in one game
29.Lebron’s poor jumpshot
30.Lebron’s bad free throw shooting
31.Lebron getting sweapt in the 2007 NBA Finals
32.Creativity
33.Style
34.Jumping over Aston Martin35.Jumping over Pool of Snakes
36.Creator & Founder of Ankle Insurance
37.Youngest ever in an All-Star game
38.Went to the Playoffs with Smush Parker & Kwame Brown in his starting lineup
39.The reason Team USA won a Gold in 2008
40.Work Ethic
41.Higher basketball IQ
42.9 game streak of 40 or more points
43.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 5/10/2000
44.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 2006
45.An All Around Game with no weaknesses
46.Smaller than Lebron, yet still more effective
47.Not as athletic as Lebron, yet still more effective
48.Turnaround Jumper
49.Post up game
50.Game 2 2004 NBA Finals
51.Kobe will win a couple more championships
52.Lebron’s outside shooting range will fail to improve
53.League will clamp down on Lebron’s ‚€œCrab‚€Ě dribbling
54.Defenses will begin to adjust to Lebron’s offense and lack of outside shooting ability
55.Game Winner against Spurs in Playoffs 2002
56.Better offensive moves
57.2nd G.O.A.T…. right below Jordan
58.Level of Intensity
59.Overall consistency for 13 NBA seasons
60.2nd Greatest Scorer in NBA history next to Wilt Chamberlain
61.Holds record for most 3-Pointers in one half (8)
62.35.4 points per game in the 2006 season (8th highest in NBA history)
63.8-time All Defensive Selection
64.10-Time All-NBA selection
65.2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
66.11-time NBA All-Star
67.2-time scoring champion
68.1-time NBA MVP
69.Better ball handling skills
70.Better passing ability
71.Better court vision
72.He has no tendencies in his game
73.Experience
74.He’s an Assassin
75.Leadership
76.Competitive drive
77.A Majority of NBA players and retired players say he is!
78.Tracy McGrady said so
79.Elton Brand said so
80.Pat Riley said so
81.Gregg Popovich said so
82.Shaquille O’neal said so
83.Toughness84.Hunger
85.Lebron plays in the weak Eastern Conference
86.Kobe plays in the strong Western Conference
87.Jordan like qualities
88.Jordan like skills
89.Lebron got better after he learned from Kobe with Team USA during the summer
90.Kobe’s shoeline is way better!91.Durability
92.Playoff experience
93.Playoff success
94.Part of 1 of 3 NBA Dynasties!
95.The Fadeaway Jumper
96.Beating Double Teams
97.Who else would you rather have the ball with the game on the line?
98.Kobe beat Lebron James with 9 fingers
99.61 points in MSG (all time record)
100.Most Popular Athlete in China
101.Unlimited Shooting Range
Im just saying


the bolded ones were either incorrect, not a worthy arguement, or stupid becuz kobe has had a much longer career and lebron will do the same.

but one thing in particular, u said that kobe is a better passer and has more court vision. that could be the stupidest thing ever said on PSD

heathonater
02-24-2010, 06:16 PM
whatever shots these two guys have made in the clutch, i still would rather have mj taking the last shot than these two guys.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 06:21 PM
u guys just gota face the facts that LeBron could do more on the basketball court. Hes a better rebounder, better passer, better shot blocker, and better scoring. yes he IS a better scorer. Sorry but getting to the line counts as scoring. two free throws is worth just as much as a mid range jumper. And the fact that LeBron can get to the hole whenever he wants and either make the shot, get to the line, or both makes him more dangerous then Kobe. LeBron is still young and is starting to get his shot down too now.

I ****ing guaranteee you 100% that if you place LeBron in Kobes shoes when he was three peating with the most dominant player in the game that they would have won more then 3 titles. Get over it. we all love kobes intensity. his drive. his competitivness, but LeBron is a better player right now

RaysFan
02-24-2010, 06:26 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

I am going to re-post it so everyone gets a chance to see this. The perception in this case isn't close to reality.

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 06:27 PM
Come on man, you are saying the tourch has been passed because of regular season awards and stats. Lebron doesn't have a ring, if he never gets one, he won't even be in the convo of one of the best ever.

Would you still be a Cavs fan if Lebron left?

You just need to look at the way they are playing... It's almost unanimous among analysts and commentators that he is the now the better player. Almost every non Laker fan on this forum would probably say LeBron is now the better player.

I love the way the loyalty to my team is questioned merely because we have a superstar... I was a fan of the Cavaliers before LeBron and i'll be a Cavaliers fan after, whenever that is.

It's a sad day when people are called out bandwagon fans without any real proof, but I suppose that's the way the mind works.

I'm sick of the LeBron/Kobe argument and to be honest, I don't even know why i'm trying to convince people he's better. Trying to tell Lakers fans that Kobe is no longer the best player in the world is like telling your kids Santa doesn't exist... You don't wanna do it because you know it's gonna break their heart, but they need to know, so they can grow up.

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 06:34 PM
You just need to look at the way they are playing... It's almost unanimous among analysts and commentators that he is the now the better player. Almost every non Laker fan on this forum would probably say LeBron is now the better player.

I love the way the loyalty to my team is questioned merely because we have a superstar... I was a fan of the Cavaliers before LeBron and i'll be a Cavaliers fan after, whenever that is.
It's a sad day when people are called out bandwagon fans without any real proof, but I suppose that's the way the mind works.

I'm sick of the LeBron/Kobe argument and to be honest, I don't even know why i'm trying to convince people he's better. Trying to tell Lakers fans that Kobe is no longer the best player in the world is like telling your kids Santa doesn't exist... You don't wanna do it because you know it's gonna break their heart, but they need to know, so they can grow up.

Have fun building around Jamison the next 2 years. Lebron is gone because he isn't winning a title with the Cavs.

MTar786
02-24-2010, 06:39 PM
i remember kobe hitting a game winning jumper against the suns in the 2000 second round of the playoffs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teIq5v0tTnY

just thought id mention this because no one ever seems to remember this moment. LOOK AT THE HANGTIME on that jumper!

RaiderLakersA's
02-24-2010, 07:11 PM
Anyone who starts a Kobe v. LeBron thread -- or a shootout featuring those two in any post -- should have his/her PSD card pulled. Sick of these debates!!!

DCB/LAL
02-24-2010, 07:17 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

If your gonna use percentages then you have to go with Kobes FULL CAREER game winning shots. The info you provided only starts when Lebron came into the league in 03-04 Kobe hit other game winners before 03-04 that are not in that stat you provided.

If your gonna use lebrons career percentages then you must use Kobe's career as well. If someone could find that stat it'd be great.

GspLAL
02-24-2010, 07:25 PM
You just need to look at the way they are playing... It's almost unanimous among analysts and commentators that he is the now the better player. Almost every non Laker fan on this forum would probably say LeBron is now the better player.

I love the way the loyalty to my team is questioned merely because we have a superstar... I was a fan of the Cavaliers before LeBron and i'll be a Cavaliers fan after, whenever that is.

It's a sad day when people are called out bandwagon fans without any real proof, but I suppose that's the way the mind works.

I'm sick of the LeBron/Kobe argument and to be honest, I don't even know why i'm trying to convince people he's better. Trying to tell Lakers fans that Kobe is no longer the best player in the world is like telling your kids Santa doesn't exist... You don't wanna do it because you know it's gonna break their heart, but they need to know, so they can grow up.

Like how 99% of LA fans are treated here? Gotcha.

Bullsfan22
02-24-2010, 07:29 PM
Lebron is the best player in the league..

JNA17
02-24-2010, 07:30 PM
i love my with sugar

Sox Appeal
02-24-2010, 07:30 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

LOL @ you trying to use facts in your argument. What do those prove? Nothing! We all know Kobe is clutcher, and LeBron sucks in the clutch. We know this because ESPN, and people like Skip Bayless, tell us so.

:rolleyes:

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 07:34 PM
:speechless: Wow, was this really necessary? You are just making US, LAKERS FANS (not just kobe fans), look so dumb. I appreaciate your effort in posting that, but I just think it wasn't necessary. Lebron can win all the MVPs in the world, except the Finals MVP.

I didnt write that, i got it from some sight. Yes some are true and some are wrong, Your right except the finals MVP

junion
02-24-2010, 07:36 PM
lebron beats kobe with this stat. it's true... but is it relevant?

the media and people make stats to form who they want to show is better. this also exists in debates, etc.

that's why when you watch an nba game on TV, there's always a mention of something TRUE, but random like "he's the youngest player to score 32+ in 6 straight games in the month of january during an even number year, while playing more than half those games on the road against teams who are currently over .500 under two different coaches in the middle of a situation that got 3 of his teammates traded during that 9 game streak" it's TRUE, but it's twisted to fit what they want to show or "prove". this looks like they're trying to make kobe and lebron very close in these stats.

this is like when a business is trying to say that since they hired CEO Tim, their business went up, when they hired CEO Tim in the middle of september - holiday shopping season.

stats leave out information and count others to get their point across.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 07:37 PM
the bolded ones were either incorrect, not a worthy arguement, or stupid becuz kobe has had a much longer career and lebron will do the same.

but one thing in particular, u said that kobe is a better passer and has more court vision. that could be the stupidest thing ever said on PSD

Relax kiddo, I know some of them are wrong..thats not mine i just copy and pasted. and IF Kobe wanted to..IFFFF! He could be the better passer.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 07:39 PM
Relax kiddo, I know some of them are wrong..thats not mine i just copy and pasted. and IF Kobe wanted to..IFFFF! He could be the better passer.


no. he couldnt. and if he could have then your implying that your boy doesnt try his best . but anyways. no. he could not be a better passer then lebron if his entire career depended on it

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 07:46 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Quoting for truth.

Also, a Kobe fanatic made the point that his % is worse and he has less assists because Kobe is not afraid to take the big shot instead of dump it off.

Lebron and Jordan recognized when they were double/tripled teamed and found their open teammate. Kobe prefers to throw up a 23 footer and pray it goes it goes in.


Carmelo is the guy I want taking my last shot.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 07:48 PM
Fine kid...if my boy isnt trying his best...than hes prettty damm amazing for not trying his best...I mean I think Lebron is a beast of course, but kobe is still the best and your out here comparing SOMEONE that doesnt try his best to Lebron? Dang.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 07:51 PM
Fine kid...if my boy isnt trying his best...than hes prettty damm amazing for not trying his best...I mean I think Lebron is a beast of course, but kobe is still the best and your out here comparing SOMEONE that doesnt try his best to Lebron? Dang.

bro u dont know what ur talking about and make absolutely no sense. ur prolly some 13 year old kid that scored 100 points with kobe bryant on nba live 2010 and thinks hes the best. the whole point of people thinking kobe is the best is his competitive drive and heart.

avrpatsfan
02-24-2010, 07:53 PM
Down 3, I want Ray Allen easily. But down 1 I want Lebron and down 2 I want Bryant. Lebron gets to the rim very easily and Ray Allen is very clutch (remember last years playoffs?) Bryant is still the best at that (game winners) though

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 07:57 PM
bro u dont know what ur talking about and make absolutely no sense. ur prolly some 13 year old kid that scored 100 points with kobe bryant on nba live 2010 and thinks hes the best. the whole point of people thinking kobe is the best is his competitive drive and heart.

:laugh: hahahahahha is that all you got? and 13 years old? :facepalm:

The_Ocho_24
02-24-2010, 08:01 PM
I don't know where you got these from but I can already see discrepancies...

For one LeBron hit two free throws against the Heat about a month ago to put the Cavs up one with about 2 seconds left and that isn't there.

You sources don't seem entirely accurate... I'll go with ESPN's.

free throws are field goals idiot

madiaz3
02-24-2010, 08:01 PM
I found the link. This is actually pretty good. It starts in the 2003/2004 season, which is LeBron's rookie year, and ends in the middle of the 2008-2009 season. Off the top of my head I know it doesn't add LeBron's FT's against Miami, his shot against Orlando, and his shot against Utah. It also doesn't include any of Kobe's shots this year either. It covers all "game winning shots". Here is their definition of a game winning shot;

Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially

2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)

3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.

Here is how Kobe and LeBron compare...

LeBron James
-17-50 (34%)
-14-20 from the foul line
-6 assists
-4 turnovers

Kobe Bryant
-14-56 (25%)
-12-15 from the foul line
-1 assist
-5 turnovers

This is not something Kobe fans want to see. Even adding this year in, Kobe shoots a very low percentage in GW shots and his horrible assist to turnover ratio is alarming. To me what this tells us is this...

1. People remember the shots you make and NOT the times you miss or turn the ball over.

2. People remember the game winning jumpers more than a game winning layup, dunk, or assist.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Career stats vs. Career stats make more sense.
Add this years stats even to the sample size you provided and it's only 30 to 34%. Add Lebron's stats from this year and we have a different story considering he missed three 3's in the final seconds against the Nuggets alone.
Let's not forget that this definition counts shots that did not actually win the game. We're talking about game winners, not scoring to go up one with 20 seconds and then losing.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 08:02 PM
hahahahahha is that all you got? and 13 years old?


sorry..13 and a half. i know every month counts when ur a baby

madiaz3
02-24-2010, 08:04 PM
the stat speciafically says FGM also known as FIELD GOALS MADE so i dont know why yall are talking about free throws, but those count as points too. Please dont tell me that the league gives LeBron "gifts" and doesnt give Kobe anything. Kobe gets more gifts then LeBron does FOR SURE.


Yeah not even close, it goes Lebron, Wade, Kobe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kwhi1twVO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtf7kQZC6gw
ETC
Worst part is that it's playoffs.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 08:10 PM
sorry..13 and a half. i know every month counts when ur a baby

:facepalm: just stop. Your making a fool outa yourself. :shush::shush::shush:

harm0n1x
02-24-2010, 08:11 PM
TRY? No im gunna.
101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron..
1.3-Time NBA Champion
2.An 81 Point Game
3.Mid-range game
4.Three Point Shooting
5.6 Time All Defensive First Team
6.2 Time All Defensive Second Team
7.NBA Slam Dunk Champion
8.Career 84% Free Throw shooter
9.Killer Instinct
10.Great clutch performer
11.Will to win
12.Greater Career Resume
13.Greater Scorer
14.Greater Defender
15.Greater Winner
16.5 NBA Finals Appearances
17.62 points in 3 quarters
18.First player since 1964 to score 45 or more points in four consecutive games
19.65 points vs. Blazers
20.Then 50 points the next game against the Twolves
21.Then another 60 the next game against the Grizzlies
22.10 50-plus point games in one season (2006-2007)
23.Ability to play through pain
24.5 Career 60-plus point games
25.152 Playoff games played & Counting
26.3-Peat
27.Because President Barack Obama said so
28.12 Three Pointers in one game
29.Lebronís poor jumpshot
30.Lebronís bad free throw shooting
31.Lebron getting sweapt in the 2007 NBA Finals
32.Creativity
33.Style
34.Jumping over Aston Martin
35.Jumping over Pool of Snakes
36.Creator & Founder of Ankle Insurance
37.Youngest ever in an All-Star game
38.Went to the Playoffs with Smush Parker & Kwame Brown in his starting lineup
39.The reason Team USA won a Gold in 2008
40.Work Ethic
41.Higher basketball IQ
42.9 game streak of 40 or more points
43.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 5/10/2000
44.Game Winner against Suns in playoffs 2006
45.An All Around Game with no weaknesses
46.Smaller than Lebron, yet still more effective
47.Not as athletic as Lebron, yet still more effective
48.Turnaround Jumper
49.Post up game
50.Game 2 2004 NBA Finals
51.Kobe will win a couple more championships
52.Lebronís outside shooting range will fail to improve
53.League will clamp down on Lebronís ‚ÄúCrab‚ÄĚ dribbling
54.Defenses will begin to adjust to Lebronís offense and lack of outside shooting ability
55.Game Winner against Spurs in Playoffs 2002
56.Better offensive moves
57.2nd G.O.A.TÖ. right below Jordan
58.Level of Intensity
59.Overall consistency for 13 NBA seasons
60.2nd Greatest Scorer in NBA history next to Wilt Chamberlain
61.Holds record for most 3-Pointers in one half (8)
62.35.4 points per game in the 2006 season (8th highest in NBA history)
63.8-time All Defensive Selection
64.10-Time All-NBA selection
65.2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
66.11-time NBA All-Star
67.2-time scoring champion
68.1-time NBA MVP
69.Better ball handling skills
70.Better passing ability
71.Better court vision
72.He has no tendencies in his game
73.Experience
74.Heís an Assassin
75.Leadership
76.Competitive drive
77.A Majority of NBA players and retired players say he is!
78.Tracy McGrady said so
79.Elton Brand said so
80.Pat Riley said so
81.Gregg Popovich said so
82.Shaquille Oíneal said so
83.Toughness
84.Hunger
85.Lebron plays in the weak Eastern Conference
86.Kobe plays in the strong Western Conference
87.Jordan like qualities
88.Jordan like skills
89.Lebron got better after he learned from Kobe with Team USA during the summer
90.Kobeís shoeline is way better!
91.Durability
92.Playoff experience
93.Playoff success
94.Part of 1 of 3 NBA Dynasties!
95.The Fadeaway Jumper
96.Beating Double Teams
97.Who else would you rather have the ball with the game on the line?
98.Kobe beat Lebron James with 9 fingers
99.61 points in MSG (all time record)
100.Most Popular Athlete in China
101.Unlimited Shooting Range

Im just saying :)

:facepalm: seriously, dude. get a life.

TheKing23
02-24-2010, 08:14 PM
free throws are field goals idiot

Please tell me your not being serious...

:facepalm: x infinite

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 08:17 PM
:facepalm: seriously, dude. get a life.

:shush:

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 08:24 PM
I don't think the stat is entirely arbitrary.

24 seconds = the shot clock, last possession (possibly) of the game
Any shout made in that circumstance is huge. It either puts you ahead, ties it up, or puts you within one (and with time to foul, that is huge)

Like Kobe's shot last night. How many seconds were left? Like 8? There still was the chance for Memphis to win. It wasn't a buzzer beater. I think any shot within that time period is undoubtedly huge. A shot that ties the game is just as big as a shot that wins the game. You can't win if you don't tie it up in many times.


Kobe is the best (slightly arguably) last second shooter in the game. All this stat does is prove that LeBron is not not clutch. He is a top 5 clutch player in the league...easily.

4 seconds.

BTW--Kobe has 33 game-winners in his career and Lebron has 11 (possibly 12).

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 08:25 PM
Career stats vs. Career stats make more sense.
Add this years stats even to the sample size you provided and it's only 30 to 34%. Add Lebron's stats from this year and we have a different story considering he missed three 3's in the final seconds against the Nuggets alone.
Let's not forget that this definition counts shots that did not actually win the game. We're talking about game winners, not scoring to go up one with 20 seconds and then losing.

Why? The stats cover Lebron's entire career including his early "growing" seasons and Kobe's prime. If anything, Kobe should have the advantage if we only go back to the beginning of the decade. Kobe's assist to turnover ratio should be a lot better for a veteran considered by some to be the best in the world.

harm0n1x
02-24-2010, 08:28 PM
:shush:

nah, i really don't even care about the lebron/kobe argument. it's all personal opinion. but, really, some of you laker fans are the most insane sons of *****es in the world. i used to think boston and new york fans were bad, but you guys win it, hands down. yeah we know kobe won 4 rings, but the way you guys strut around and act like kobe and the lakers are invincible is ridiculous. you question our loyalty to our team because lebron is there, but really, would you even be a lakers fan if it wasn't for the rings, or even kobe for that matter? do you even live in LA? or are you another one of the 5,000+ bandwangon *******s i see every time the lakers play a road game? i have no respect for laker fans, except for the very few i've seen on PSD who have respect for the overall game of basketball.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 08:28 PM
4 seconds.

BTW--Kobe has 33 game-winners in his career and Lebron has 11 (possibly 12).

:clap:

DCB/LAL
02-24-2010, 08:30 PM
Why? The stats cover Lebron's entire career including his early "growing" seasons and Kobe's prime. If anything, Kobe should have the advantage if we only go back to the beginning of the decade. Kobe's assist to turnover ratio should be a lot better for a veteran considered by some to be the best in the world.

What do you mean why? I can easily just use Lebrons averages from 03 to 06 when he was 4 for 19 in game winners since thats what your doing to Kobe. If your comparing percentages you have to use career percentages just like Lebron gets that benefit.

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 08:30 PM
Makes mean nothing without knowing attempts.

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 08:32 PM
Do you have the number of attempts? Has LeBron missed any this year??? Kobe has had a ton of chances, and has capitalized on most (all?) of them. LeBron just hasn't been in many situations where he or anyone has had to hit a game winner. Can we really discredit him for that? You can't hit game winners unless you're in the position to do so...

That's the list I'd kill to see. Attempts and makes.

Lebron missed a shot against Charlotte in the final seconds as well as against the Grizzlies (twice, one in regulation and once in OT). Both were losses.

Kobe missed against the Grizz, but made up for it a few seconds later with the game winner at 4 seconds. Kobe missed against the Bucks, but made up for it in OT with the buzzer-beater. The only time Kobe missed and didn't find redemption in the same game was against Toronto, but that shot was a prayer as he was fading away from about 28 feet away from the basket after trying to somehow attain a failure of a pass from Luke Walton.

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 08:32 PM
What do you mean why? I can easily just use Lebrons averages from 03 to 06 when he was 4 for 19 in game winners since thats what your doing to Kobe. If your comparing percentages you have to use career percentages just like Lebron gets that benefit.

A player should get better as their careers progress, using the data from the 82games should be in favor of Kobe because he had time to adjust, learn the game, and deal with the pressure.

Regardless, Lebron has been better since 03-04, and Carmelo has been better than both of them.

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 08:33 PM
Makes mean nothing without knowing attempts.

Eh, makes and attempts aren't the end all, be all without knowing the context of the shots in question.

BTW--Saying "makes mean nothing" isn't very accurate. To be more accurate, I wouldn't use such hyperbolic vocabulary.

bigsams50
02-24-2010, 08:34 PM
4 seconds.

BTW--Kobe has 33 game-winners in his career and Lebron has 11 (possibly 12).

Kobes also 31 while Lebrons only 25

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 08:37 PM
Kobes also 31 while Lebrons only 25

True. Still though. Lebron has 12 in 7 years and Kobe has 33 in 14 years. Even if we double Lebron's total, his number of 24 is still nowhere near Bryant's 33.

tredigs
02-24-2010, 08:42 PM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451246&page=38

^Scroll down to my post/link. It highlights the Kobe Bryant hype machine pretty well.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 08:44 PM
nah, i really don't even care about the lebron/kobe argument. it's all personal opinion. but, really, some of you laker fans are the most insane sons of *****es in the world. i used to think boston and new york fans were bad, but you guys win it, hands down. yeah we know kobe won 4 rings, but the way you guys strut around and act like kobe and the lakers are invincible is ridiculous. you question our loyalty to our team because lebron is there, but really, would you even be a lakers fan if it wasn't for the rings, or even kobe for that matter? do you even live in LA? or are you another one of the 5,000+ bandwangon *******s i see every time the lakers play a road game? i have no respect for laker fans, except for the very few i've seen on PSD who have respect for the overall game of basketball.

Thats good for you :) Yeah were so horrible and crazy and ridiculous. And your the smartest kid in Ohio...:clap: im happy for you. Ive been a laker fan before the kobe era. I do in fact live 20 minutes away from Staples Center itself. Im not a BANDWAGON not bandwangon..oh wait im wrong and your so right..anyways.Laker fan since i saw the purple&Gold guys on tv, a child....Oh wait im a laker fan im ridiculous..and you have no respect for me. So your right. :clap:

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 08:49 PM
IF ONLY there were a stat for this kind of thing. Oh, wait...

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Most ironic stat EVER? The two WORST percentages for last second shots through the last five years up to the 09-10 season are from Chauncey "Big Shot" Billups and Kobe "mr clutch" Bryant.

Bryant just happens to take more of them than any other player on the list, so naturally the ones he DOES make (which are impressive, no doubt about it) make him seem that much better. Factoring in this year, where Kobe has probably taken at least 5 more game-winning shots than he has made, it would still leave his % somewhere near the .29% range. Hardly the most clutch on the list. That honor goes to Melo. He is simply the best closer in the game, and it's not even CLOSE. Melo has also made some game winners himself so far this year in his limited time on the court, most recently over LBJ (who by the way is also better than Kobe at game winning shots. Go figure.). Take note that Kobe has the MOST turnovers in a game winning shot situation of anyone in the NBA over that time, and only ONE assist. Lebron has 6 assists. This isn't even close. I never want to hear about how clutch he is again.

BOOM, ROASTED. [No offense to you, you just mentioned it last : ]

Needed to be in here as well :clap:

kArSoN RyDaH
02-24-2010, 08:53 PM
Most people there still pick Kobe over Lebron. So know your facts.

most people? haha thats not even a fact. lmaoooo:rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 08:54 PM
IF ONLY there were a stat for this kind of thing. Oh, wait...

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Most ironic stat EVER? The two WORST percentages for last second shots through the last five years up to the 09-10 season are from Chauncey "Big Shot" Billups and Kobe "mr clutch" Bryant.

Bryant just happens to take more of them than any other player on the list, so naturally the ones he DOES make (which are impressive, no doubt about it) make him seem that much better. Factoring in this year, where Kobe has probably taken at least 5 more game-winning shots than he has made, it would still leave his % somewhere near the .29% range. Hardly the most clutch on the list. That honor goes to Melo. He is simply the best closer in the game, and it's not even CLOSE. Melo has also made some game winners himself so far this year in his limited time on the court, most recently over LBJ (who by the way is also better than Kobe at game winning shots. Go figure.). Take note that Kobe has the MOST turnovers in a game winning shot situation of anyone in the NBA over that time, and only ONE assist. Lebron has 6 assists. This isn't even close. I never want to hear about how clutch he is again.

BOOM, ROASTED. [No offense to you, you just mentioned it last : ]

82games.com is increasingly becoming less credible. Early in the season, there were some glaring errors they made in statistics and I know one forum (which I sadly cannot name as it is against PSD rules) decided to send multiple emails to 82games.com. They said that their stats are somewhat prone to mistakes, but they try their best to fix them. Those stats continue to be incorrect.

harm0n1x
02-24-2010, 08:57 PM
Thats good for you :) Yeah were so horrible and crazy and ridiculous. And your the smartest kid in Ohio...:clap: im happy for you. Ive been a laker fan before the kobe era. I do in fact live 20 minutes away from Staples Center itself. Im not a BANDWAGON not bandwangon..oh wait im wrong and your so right..anyways.Laker fan since i saw the purple&Gold guys on tv, a child....Oh wait im a laker fan im ridiculous..and you have no respect for me. So your right. :clap:

yeah, ridiculous is posting 101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron. with about 86 of those being illegitimate. uh oh, you spell checked me, i apologize i can't be as perfect as you. :rolleyes: and if you are from LA, more power to you, because most of the time, people like you aren't from there. and yep, about 3/4 of lakers fans are ridiculous :D

tredigs
02-24-2010, 09:06 PM
82games.com is increasingly becoming less credible. Early in the season, there were some glaring errors they made in statistics and I know one forum (which I sadly cannot name as it is against PSD rules) decided to send multiple emails to 82games.com. They said that their stats are somewhat prone to mistakes, but they try their best to fix them. Those stats continue to be incorrect.

Fair enough. I have never heard anything about their stats being faulty, but doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. That said, I would definitely tend to believe those numbers unless I was convinced otherwise. If you can find any numbers that can show me that Kobe is the more clutch shooter in game winning situations, I'm all years man. But, I'm almost positive that the most consistent is Melo... I've always thought that, and seeing the 82games.com stats only assured me of it.

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 09:13 PM
Fair enough. I have never heard anything about their stats being faulty, but doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. That said, I would definitely tend to believe those numbers unless I was convinced otherwise. If you can find any numbers that can show me that Kobe is the more clutch shooter in game winning situations, I'm all years man. But, I'm almost positive that the most consistent is Melo... I've always thought that, and seeing the 82games.com stats only assured me of it.

Look at Kobe for instance. I believe 82games.com has him at 14 or 15 "clutch shots" when, as evidenced by G-Funk in this thread, he has clearly made more game-winning shots alone. It is simply all too fishy for me.

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 09:14 PM
82games.com is increasingly becoming less credible. Early in the season, there were some glaring errors they made in statistics and I know one forum (which I sadly cannot name as it is against PSD rules) decided to send multiple emails to 82games.com. They said that their stats are somewhat prone to mistakes, but they try their best to fix them. Those stats continue to be incorrect.

Can you PM a link, please?

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 09:14 PM
hahahaha true that is ridiculous, though i didnt come up with that but i did post it. No No No kiddo...no. Im not the perfect one. You are. Remember im ridiculous. Not you. But whats funny is that you took the time to read my oh so ridiculous 101 reasons why kobe is better than lebron...:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

bigsams50
02-24-2010, 09:17 PM
When i first saw the title i thought ESPN said LBJ and Kobe were related lol

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 09:24 PM
Can you PM a link, please?

Can't I get banned for that? :laugh2:

ChiSox219
02-24-2010, 09:25 PM
Can't I get banned for that? :laugh2:

Fine, then email it to me.

ARMIN12NBA
02-24-2010, 09:28 PM
Fine, then email it to me.

PM me your email and I'll scour the forum for it and link you up. The thread debunking the stats was in early December...Should have bookmarked it.

Avenged
02-24-2010, 09:28 PM
Okay, Kobe isn't clutch at all. In fact, he chokes all the time in crunch time.
Lebron is God. He's the most clutch player in the history of the game. There's a reason he has so many rings, guys. Lebron is already the greatest player of all time!
:facepalm:

RaysFan
02-24-2010, 09:33 PM
After looking at the numbers, I am actually surprised that the media is so quick to judge Kobe as "Mr. Clutch" the way they have. He is a low-percentage shooter with the game on the line and he doesn't pass at all (seriously...1 assist since 2003 vs 5 turnovers?). I wonder if the media gets a whiff of the actual numbers, will they correct themselves?

RaysFan
02-24-2010, 09:37 PM
82games.com is increasingly becoming less credible. Early in the season, there were some glaring errors they made in statistics and I know one forum (which I sadly cannot name as it is against PSD rules) decided to send multiple emails to 82games.com. They said that their stats are somewhat prone to mistakes, but they try their best to fix them. Those stats continue to be incorrect.

ESPN is a billion dollar company and even they make mistakes. Every website, media outlet, blogger, etc will make mistakes. Maybe they made a mistake here or there but who is to say it was against Kobe? Maybe it is for Kobe? We don't know so all we can go on is what we have.

I understand that these numbers shock you, but they are pretty clearly against Kobe. Face it...he is a high volume end of the game shooter with lower percentages and 5x as many turnovers as he has assists.

Purple&Gold24
02-24-2010, 09:37 PM
QUOTE=Avenged24;12420242]Okay, Kobe isn't clutch at all. In fact, he chokes all the time in crunch time.
Lebron is God. He's the most clutch player in the history of the game. There's a reason he has so many rings, guys. Lebron is already the greatest player of all time!
:facepalm:[/QUOTE]

:rimshot:

DCB/LAL
02-24-2010, 09:43 PM
After looking at the numbers, I am actually surprised that the media is so quick to judge Kobe as "Mr. Clutch" the way they have. He is a low-percentage shooter with the game on the line and he doesn't pass at all (seriously...1 assist since 2003 vs 5 turnovers?). I wonder if the media gets a whiff of the actual numbers, will they correct themselves?


ESPN is a billion dollar company and even they make mistakes. Every website, media outlet, blogger, etc will make mistakes. Maybe they made a mistake here or there but who is to say it was against Kobe? Maybe it is for Kobe? We don't know so all we can go on is what we have.

I understand that these numbers shock you, but they are pretty clearly against Kobe. Face it...he is a high volume end of the game shooter with lower percentages and 5x as many turnovers as he has assists.

Stop your embarrassing yourself those stats only go as far back as 03 and only go up until they dont tell the whole story of Kobe's career % for game winners.

GspLAL
02-24-2010, 09:44 PM
Whats the point in arguing this topic anymore? There's never gonna be a conclusion, no one's gonna convince the opposing side, and it just promotes bashing. It's like arguing Christianity vs Atheism.

PLAYERS FAN
02-24-2010, 10:10 PM
Whats y all thoughts on Phil Jackson saying Kobe game winning shots was way harder than Jordan?

ChiSox219
02-25-2010, 12:17 AM
Whats the point in arguing this topic anymore? There's never gonna be a conclusion, no one's gonna convince the opposing side, and it just promotes bashing. It's like arguing Christianity vs Atheism.

Except, it's not like that at all.

GspLAL
02-25-2010, 01:10 AM
Except, it's not like that at all.

explain

JNA17
02-25-2010, 01:12 AM
Except, it's not like that at all.

Nah it's pretty much like that.

Ok fine it's like Arguing if the cake is a lie or not. There happy?

Fool
02-25-2010, 01:14 AM
Lebron has many Game winning shots. But most of them come with a few secs left, so the media do not count them. Its weird.

lol what did you even read the thread?

GspLAL
02-25-2010, 01:15 AM
Nah it's pretty much like that.

Ok fine it's like Arguing if the cake is a lie or not. There happy?

If he was talking about the Christianity comment I made then how is it not like that? What I meant by that is that it never comes to an agreement and you'll very rarely convince the other side.

JNA17
02-25-2010, 01:16 AM
If he was talking about the Christianity comment I made then how is it not like that? What I meant by that is that it never comes to an agreement and you'll very rarely convince the other side.

I know i was just making a joke. :D

Purple&Gold24
02-25-2010, 01:31 AM
:surrender:
Whats the point in arguing this topic anymore? There's never gonna be a conclusion, no one's gonna convince the opposing side, and it just promotes bashing. It's like arguing Christianity vs Atheism.

:surrender: goood point. Like that sig though..

MacFitz92
02-25-2010, 01:48 AM
I feel sometimes they overhype Kobe vs. LeBron. Yea they're both good, but sometimes they try to hard to make something out of nothing. Lakers fans will say Kobe is better and Cleveland fans will say LeBron is better.

But the truth is, Dirk is the best. :)

Chacarron
02-25-2010, 06:09 PM
The only way we can answer who is better: Lebron or Kobe? is by answering this question:

Who is hated more: Lebron or Kobe?

drose231
02-25-2010, 06:12 PM
The only way we can answer who is better: Lebron or Kobe? is by answering this question:

Who is hated more: Lebron or Kobe?

LeBron. Kobe isn't even that hated. Some people absolutely despise LeBron here.

ChiSox219
02-25-2010, 06:17 PM
explain

There's simply no way to prove there is a god or not. Lebron and Kobe both exist and detailed statistics are kept on both of their performance. An objective and logical argument can be made to show which is "better".

Believers in god are often raised that way so no matter what you say, since there's no real way to prove them wrong, they are not going to waiver.

No one is going to Sunday school to read about Lebron walking on water or Kobe turning water into wine, though sometimes I wonder if they have schools like that in LA.


Regardless, Kobe has not been one of the top clutch players over the last 7-8 years.

Chacarron
02-25-2010, 06:44 PM
LeBron. Kobe isn't even that hated. Some people absolutely despise LeBron here.

Then Lebron is the better player. Kobe is more respected.

zambo4president
02-25-2010, 07:16 PM
Kobe is much more skilled than LeBron. LeBron is a freak of nature I actually really find his game pretty ugly.

GspLAL
02-25-2010, 08:05 PM
There's simply no way to prove there is a god or not. Lebron and Kobe both exist and detailed statistics are kept on both of their performance. An objective and logical argument can be made to show which is "better".

Believers in god are often raised that way so no matter what you say, since there's no real way to prove them wrong, they are not going to waiver.

No one is going to Sunday school to read about Lebron walking on water or Kobe turning water into wine, though sometimes I wonder if they have schools like that in LA.


Regardless, Kobe has not been one of the top clutch players over the last 7-8 years.

You misunderstood what I meant with the religion comment. What I meant by that no matter how much you try you're not gonna convince each other so it's gonna be a never ending argument.