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View Full Version : It's time to put Melo in the convo as best player in the NBA.



Gibby23
02-23-2010, 07:25 PM
I think he is right up there with Wade, Kobe, and Lebron. Some might say he is the best in the NBA. If I couldn't pick Kobe, I would pick Melo, I don't care what Lebrons numbers say, Melo has become an amazing player since the end of last year and all of this year. He is the best scorer of the 4 and is pretty clutch. He can post up, shoot the mid range, the 3, and take you off the dribble.

Does he have a case?

Vinny642
02-23-2010, 07:27 PM
Best- no
Top 5 yeah I guess

Baller1
02-23-2010, 07:29 PM
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3a. Howard
3b. Durant
3c. Wade
3d. Melo

No, he doesn't have a case.

Storch
02-23-2010, 07:31 PM
I'm sorry but I disagree, he's clearly still behind kobe and lebron. He's arguably 3rd best vs. Wade though. But then again if you put wade in the nuggets would they be a better team?? hmm..

ManRam
02-23-2010, 07:31 PM
So he can score...


Okay. LeBron, Kobe and even Wade's all around game are significantly better.

GodsSon
02-23-2010, 07:33 PM
I still think Bosh is better than him...Durant as well

MacFitz92
02-23-2010, 07:46 PM
I'd take a big handful of players over 'Melo.

Storch
02-23-2010, 07:47 PM
I still think Bosh is better than him...Durant as well

Bosh :laugh: you made my day.

Rego247
02-23-2010, 07:49 PM
i think melo should be top 5, if the cracking the top 5 means that ur in discussion for the best player in the league i think he should be considered, id say kobe, lebron, melo/wade, then durant, not durant b4 melo IMO

TheKing23
02-23-2010, 07:51 PM
He's a more complete version of Kevin Durant...

A great scorer but doesn't do much else.

BleedGreen1014
02-23-2010, 07:52 PM
i wouldnt say that LBJ and Kobes and Wades all around game is "significantly" better than Melos. Melo can rebound, his passing is very underrated, and his defense has drastically improved..even the annoucers during the Cavs game mentioned this. Not to mention the man can score like its his job....wait it is his job.

Bishnoff
02-23-2010, 07:53 PM
i think melo should be top 5, if the cracking the top 5 means that ur in discussion for the best player in the league i think he should be considered, id say kobe, lebron, melo/wade, then durant, not durant b4 melo imo

+1

Go_NUGGETS
02-23-2010, 07:57 PM
LOL @ Durant being over Melo.....



I'll take Melo over Durant when it really counts anyday.....I do think Melo is playing better then Wade this year....And even tho Melo worked Lebron in their last matchup, I still say Lebron is better....As of this year???This year???? I put Melo and Kobe as equal...Even tho Kobe overall is greater then anybody else, when considering career.

As much as it hurts me to say, overall Kobe is the best player....But as far as this season alone??? I'll put Lebron 1st, and Kobe and Melo as equal.

Ethix11
02-23-2010, 07:58 PM
His defense is better but its nowhere near as game changing as Wade, Kobe, or LeBrons.. and Durant is not better than Melo.

Go_NUGGETS
02-23-2010, 08:02 PM
Yeah? With what defense?....

Wow....Did I just go back in time, or am I mistakened, and you've been livin under a rock????? Because I can swear that Melo has been playing GOOD defense this season, and last.

ManRam
02-23-2010, 08:03 PM
Wow....Did I just go back in time, or am I mistakened, and you've been livin under a rock????? Because I can swear that Melo has been playing GOOD defense this season, and last.

Good defense...sure. LeBron, Wade and Kobe play GREAT defense.

GodsSon
02-23-2010, 08:03 PM
Bosh :laugh: you made my day.

What's to laugh at? 24 and 11 and second in double-doubles...Carmelo is a good scorer but does nothing else extremely well; like i've said in the past, he's a more glorified version of Glenn Robinson

Toenail Clipper
02-23-2010, 08:07 PM
Durant and Paul
:P

Paulliwali
02-23-2010, 08:08 PM
Melo can't carry the whole team the way Kobe/Lebron/Wade can, so borderline best of the best with all the other great players, durant, cp3, bosh, howard, etc

Mavrix
02-23-2010, 08:09 PM
Oh god.

Go_NUGGETS
02-23-2010, 08:10 PM
Good defense...sure. LeBron, Wade and Kobe play GREAT defense.

Thats not the point...First, people criticize Melo of having NO defense to consider in these debates, but then he finally gets good at Defense [which is opposite of NO defense], and now it's not great enough???? It seems people just keep finding reasons to hate on him....Soon, it's gonna be Melo being unable to score 80 pts in a game, or get as many blocks as Olajuwon. LoL. :rolleyes:

The Jokemaker
02-23-2010, 08:11 PM
I think he's not the best but is the 3rd best in the league. It's Lebron, Kobe, and then Melo to me. Carmelo is an amazing player and for whatever reason has not gotten nearly as much as attention as Wade and James. If I have to pick a player to build a team around, It's either Lebron, Carmelo, or Durant (not Kobe because of his age).

ManRam
02-23-2010, 08:16 PM
Thats not the point...First, people criticize Melo of having NO defense to consider in these debates, but then he finally gets good at Defense [which is opposite of NO defense], and now it's not great enough???? It seems people just keep finding reasons to hate on him....Soon, it's gonna be Melo being unable to score 80 pts in a game, or get as many blocks as Olajuwon. LoL. :rolleyes:

If you wanna be the best player, which is what we're discussing, GREAT defense is a must...especially when the competition ahead of you play GREAT defense.

I'm not finding a reason to hate on him, we're just comparing him to the absolute best. It gets nit-picky now.

dwadefan03
02-23-2010, 08:18 PM
durant is not better than melo

Bucsfan
02-23-2010, 08:21 PM
Melo is a fantastic player, but i still see other players ahead of him, I woudl take Lebron, Durant, Kobe and maybe even 2 or 3 others before melo

Go_NUGGETS
02-23-2010, 08:22 PM
If you wanna be the best player, which is what we're discussing, GREAT defense is a must...especially when the competition ahead of you play GREAT defense.

I'm not finding a reason to hate on him, we're just comparing him to the absolute best. It gets nit-picky now.



Defense is defense IMO....Can you post an example of what distinguishes great Defense from the opposite???? Kobe does play suffocating defense on players...Its like when he wants to steal a ball, he can steal it anytimes....But what does Wade do that Melo doesn't??? I mean yeah he may average more STEALS and BLOCKS per game...But how do those statistics oberjctively say Wade is any better at overall defense then Melo???

mjqusoldier
02-23-2010, 08:22 PM
Melo is a better scorer than Lebron or Wade. He is more versatile and has a better jumper.

Ray_R
02-23-2010, 08:23 PM
I still think Bosh is better than him...Durant as well

Actually Melo is top 5 Bosh is top 10.

Ollie Tabooger
02-23-2010, 08:24 PM
im not saying i would want billups over melo, but until he came over, they werent a winning team. He just doesnt have the team impact lebron, kobe, cp3 have

bigsams50
02-23-2010, 08:24 PM
No not the best. Top 5 yes, but not the best

GodsSon
02-23-2010, 08:28 PM
Actually Melo is top 5 Bosh is top 10.

I don't agree...I think top 5 is a mix of any of the following: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Paul/Howard

ManRam
02-23-2010, 08:30 PM
Defense is defense IMO....Can you post an example of what distinguishes great Defense from the opposite???? Kobe does play suffocating defense on players...Its like when he wants to steal a ball, he can steal it anytimes....But what does Wade do that Melo doesn't??? I mean yeah he may average more STEALS and BLOCKS per game...But how do those statistics oberjctively say Wade is any better at overall defense then Melo???

If you can't tell what distinguishes a great defender from the opposite, then you clearly have never watched an NBA game.

And quantitative defensive stats don't determine good defenders. Getting steals and blocks aren't what makes wing defenders great necessarily.

To determine good defense you need eyes, and should look at defensive rating, defensive win shares and that consistency that you just admitted Melo doesn't have. Melo is way behind in those two advanced stats, and still even further behind on the commitment end.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2010, 08:34 PM
great scorer, but Durant may have caught him.
LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Dwight
Melo
Bosh
Durant

in that order for me. And currently, Bosh is having a better season, but Melo's sustained level puts him slightly over Bosh for me.

Gibby23
02-23-2010, 08:49 PM
What if he wins a ring this year and finals MVP?

Chronz
02-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Has Melo's D slipped this year? His #'s arent as impressive and the team isnt as strong.

ManRam
02-23-2010, 09:23 PM
What if he wins a ring this year and finals MVP?

Then he'll definitely move up in consideration. Still, most the guys he's chasing have a ring, a finals MVP or a regular season MVP. I don't think it would catapult him too far.

Go_NUGGETS
02-24-2010, 12:53 AM
If you can't tell what distinguishes a great defender from the opposite, then you clearly have never watched an NBA game.

And quantitative defensive stats don't determine good defenders. Getting steals and blocks aren't what makes wing defenders great necessarily.

To determine good defense you need eyes, and should look at defensive rating, defensive win shares and that consistency that you just admitted Melo doesn't have. Melo is way behind in those two advanced stats, and still even further behind on the commitment end.

Again..You dont get my point...I know what distinguishes great defense from the opposite, i'm asking you to provide evidence on how Melo dont play to such expectation that Wade does....And still, i'm not seein evidence provided that Melo dont play within the same caliber of defense as someone like Wade does...And what evidence can you provide that Melo is not providing on the commitment end????

ManRam
02-24-2010, 01:09 AM
Again..You dont get my point...I know what distinguishes great defense from the opposite, i'm asking you to provide evidence on how Melo dont play to such expectation that Wade does....And still, i'm not seein evidence provided that Melo dont play within the same caliber of defense as someone like Wade does...And what evidence can you provide that Melo is not providing on the commitment end????

If you want to look at the stats (not really SPG and BPG, mainly the advanced ones), there's my proof. Besides what my eyes tell me...ultimately the most important thing, here's my "proof".

Defensive rating:
LeBron: 102
Kobe: 102
Wade: 103
Durant: 102
Melo: 108

Defensive Win Shares:

LeBron: 3.7
Kobe: 3.1
Wade: 2.9
Durant: 3.5
Melo: 1.4


Melo clearly is way behind in both.


Opposing SFs have a PER of 14.8 verse LeBron.
Opposing SGs have a PER of 12.5 verse Kobe.
Opposing SGs have a PER of 14.1 verse Wade.
Opposing SFs have a PER of 13.5 verse KD.
Opposing SFs have a PER of 15.4 verse Melo.

Again, Melo is trailing those 4.

Only Kobe is a worse shot blocker, and all are better ball stealers.

There is not one stat that says he's in their league defensively. He fails the eye-test too. That's all I can "prove", I don't think you can "prove" otherwise either. The commitment thing is an eye test again. He's definitely improved even compared to last year (made huge improvements from before), but still...he lacks the defensive intensity and urgency the others posses IMO...even KD.

Master Mind
02-24-2010, 01:46 AM
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3a. Howard
3b. Durant
3c. Wade
3d. Melo

No, he doesn't have a case.

Wade 3c.?

Pshttt! Pimp Slap!

JNA17
02-24-2010, 01:53 AM
nope

akay47
02-24-2010, 02:03 AM
Those of you who're putting Dwight Howard in your top 5 need a reality check..

1) Kobe
2) LeBron
3) D Wade
4) Melo, ELLO
5) Kevin Durant
6) Dwight

Go_NUGGETS
02-24-2010, 02:15 AM
Thats great and all....But i'm still not convinced that people can be KnowItAlls, and know about players defensive "commitment", when they dont watch enough of specific teams to know so....The "eye-test" doesnt add up, because really, how many games have you watched to conclude that an "eye-test" could be so concluded upon????


And yea those Metric Stats are convincing....And if those are considered the main objective measurements, then Dwight is the best player by far in the NBA, with nobody being close.....And i'm sure you would agree with that, bein that you're a Magic fan...But I still dont think Dwight is best player in the league, even tho stats say otherwise....

But anyways, goodlookin out for providing some evidence and openin it up...But i'm not fully convinced that those statistics provide the conclusion that Melo isn't commited to defense, and i'm not fully convinced that him only playing GOOD defense, and not great defense should exclude him from any top echelon player talks....Because like I said, first he didn't play no defense, and thats why he wasn't elite....But now that he plays good defense, he needs to play great defense??? I think playing good defense is enough to balance out how good he is offensively, even tho statistics may not say so on either side of the ball.

Kenny Krew
02-24-2010, 02:19 AM
Not Howard.

ManRam
02-24-2010, 02:24 AM
Thats great and all....But i'm still not convinced that people can be KnowItAlls, and know about players defensive "commitment", when they dont watch enough of specific teams to know so....The "eye-test" doesnt add up, because really, how many games have you watched to conclude that an "eye-test" could be so concluded upon????


And yea those Metric Stats are convincing....And if those are considered the main objective measurements, then Dwight is the best player by far in the NBA, with nobody being close.....And i'm sure you would agree with that, bein that you're a Magic fan...But I still dont think Dwight is best player in the league, even tho stats say otherwise....

But anyways, goodlookin out for providing some evidence and openin it up...But i'm not fully convinced that those statistics provide the conclusion that Melo isn't commited to defense, and i'm not fully convinced that him only playing GOOD defense, and not great defense should exclude him from any top echelon player talks....Because like I said, first he didn't play no defense, and thats why he wasn't elite....But now that he plays good defense, he needs to play great defense??? I think playing good defense is enough to balance out how good he is offensively, even tho statistics may not say so on either side of the ball.

If you knew me, you'd know I'm the furthest thing from a Dwight dick rider as possible for a Magic fan. Ask my fellow Magic fans here. Some think I actually hate him. I actually think Melo is a slightly better player right now than Dwight. I do think he is the best defensive player in the league...however.

I will admit I probably haven't watched enough Nuggets games to conclude that, but I have seen my fair share of them. His commitment is great, as is his defensive intensity, but again, I don't think it's at the super star level.

And I'm definitely not saying defense is the only think that makes you an elite player. But when you are determining who is the best of the best, everything is taken into consideration, and you have to get nit-picky. He's top 5 for sure, but again, I don't think his all around game is there yet. I do think he's the best pure scorer in the league, definitely ahead of KD in that regard. I do think he is a very solid rebounder. His clutchness is off the charts. But again, LeBron and Kobe, and to a lesser extent Wade and KD, have such great all-around games, with little to no weaknesses, and that's why they are 1-4 IMO. Melo has what it takes to be on their level defensively, but until he does, he isn't as elite as they are. Probably shouldn't dwell on it so much, but being elite on both sides of the ball is what separates the superstars from the stars.

That's all...I'll bow out of this thread now. Enjoy.

CowboysKB24
02-24-2010, 02:35 AM
He is the second best scorer behind Kobe, but he is behind Wade, LB23 and Kobe at the fourth spot overall.

Kobe just has all the tools on the offensive end. He can shoot the fade away, 3 ball, drive to the hoop, post up, and he can create his own shot better than anyone ever. Melo is right there though. His offensive game is nice.

Lakersfan2483
02-24-2010, 03:15 AM
Melo is in the top 5 right now. He's behind Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Howard.

dnl123
02-24-2010, 03:57 AM
Here's the thing with Melo, he's a ball hawk, he's all about putting up big numbers and he doesn't pass very well at all, and I don't think he really improves his teammates that much. Lebron's assist numbers destroy Carmelo's, and defensively Lebron is twice as good as Melo.

I'll take D-Wade, Kobe, and Lebron before Melo, Dwight Howard is debatable.

DenButsu
02-24-2010, 08:53 AM
To all the people who are saying "Yeah, he's a good scorer, but that's the only thing he does well." ...

Uh, wtf? Did you stop watching the NBA in 2007? Because at that time that criticism would have been much more valid. But if you think that's still true, then you either are watching him with a very distorted view, or simply not watching him at all.

As for whether he's "THE best" or not, I care much less about that than I care about him being the player he needs to be in order to help the Nuggets be the best team. And I think that's who he is becoming/has become.

Stay_Swim
02-24-2010, 09:24 AM
I said that after last year in the playoffs when the Nuggets played the Lakers. HE played so well, offensively and defensively. Still behind Kobe, and D-Wade, but I would he is at least tied with Lebron.

DenButsu
02-24-2010, 09:35 AM
Has Melo's D slipped this year? His #'s arent as impressive and the team isnt as strong.

With all the switching the Nuggets do, I think individual #s are largely a reflection of overall team defense. And that's a bit of a complicated picture this season for Denver.

Some of the ways in which their D has slipped might be pretty misleading. For one thing, their win/loss record is really strange. They are 12-8 (.600) against sub-.500 teams, which looks really bad. But is it because they're sucky, or because they're just phoning it in in those games? Given how the rest of their record breaks down, I'd argue it's the latter. They're:
* 25-11 (.694) against .500+ teams;
* 14-5 (.737) against the rest of the top 10
* 7-1 (.875) against the rest of the top 5
And if it's true that they're just playing down to lesser competition (for whatever reason) and that's taking a toll on their numbers, then that's not really indicative of what they'll look like in the ostseason when they'll be playing against nothing but formidable opponents.

Also, while I think it's really clear that Arron Afflalo and Ty Lawson are significant upgrades over Dahntay Jones and Anthony Carter (respectively), both DJ and AC, for all their lack of talent, were guys who always brought some pretty major energy and intensity onto the court every time they played, as well as a very good understanding of how to operate within Denver's defensive schemes. It's taken a little time, but Afflalo has really come into his own now, and is starting to emerge as one of the Nuggets' best individual and team defenders. Lawson's also holding his own really well for being a rookie and for lacking the extra couple inches AC has on him, but he's still on the learning curve in terms of getting up to speed on the team defense. Both he and Afflalo are pretty tough, and hard workers, but they've been more cautious and less gritty than DJ and AC were all season long last season. Still, they're moving more in that direction now, and again, I think by the time the playoffs roll around Denver's D will be back up to snuff, just as good as if not better than it was last season.

And if I'm right about that, then improved postseason numbers should be evident all around the rotation, including with Melo. And Melo has proven he can step it up when duty calls. Dirk was a madman last playoffs, and no Nuggets player could really stop him, but when Melo took the assignment he did just as good individually as Kenyon, Nene and Birdman did, despite the height/strength advantages some of those guys have over him. And just a few days ago we saw him man up LeBron in overtime, with some mixed results, granted, but with Melo when the willingness and effort are there, the ability and results tend to follow.

WadeBirdman
02-24-2010, 12:40 PM
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Dwight Howard
Durant
Bosh/Melo

alencp3
02-24-2010, 12:45 PM
Durant is better
/thread

Raph12
02-24-2010, 01:00 PM
You'd have to put Dwight in that convo before you get to Melo, and Dwight ain't there yet, soooo...

Gibby23
02-24-2010, 01:01 PM
You'd have to put Dwight in that convo before you get to Melo, and Dwight ain't there yet, soooo...

Why would you have to put Howard ahead of Melo?

Punkindrublic03
02-24-2010, 01:12 PM
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3a. Howard
3b. Durant
3c. Wade
3d. Melo

No, he doesn't have a case.

This. Maybe flip flop Howard and KD

Raph12
02-24-2010, 01:14 PM
Why would you have to put Howard ahead of Melo?

His sheer impact on a game is too dominant not to... Go watch the game against the Cavs, when Dwight is on the court, wing players (especially Lebron) stops driving, the defense doesn't collapse on the Magic's wing players (ie. Nelson lost Mo and got the to rim for an uncontested layup in Shaq's grill, because Shaq didn't want to leave Dwight) and he's demanding a double team on offense now as well.

He single-handedly changes other teams' offensive sets and now is making teams double him when the Magic are on offense as well or he drops 30+... Melo doesn't have that type on impact on games nor does anyone not named Kobe or Lebron.

mikantsass
02-24-2010, 01:25 PM
I love Melo, but he is not in this convo...

1 Kobe
2 Bron
3 Wade
4 Melo

Raph12
02-24-2010, 01:37 PM
This. Maybe flip flop Howard and KD

Uhhhhhhhhh... No.

AK-50
02-24-2010, 01:40 PM
i like Melo but hes not the best hes one of the best players out there nobody's complaining bout that but not the best

Hellcrooner
02-24-2010, 01:58 PM
top ten maybe .

td0tsfinest
02-24-2010, 02:02 PM
Mentally, Melo's not their yet. He's a great scorer. Arguably the best in the game right now.

Melo15
02-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Melo is definately in the top 5 but I wouldn't put him any higher than third. If you couldn't tell he is my favorite player so I admit I am biased but I think he is better than Wade.

AI4MVP
02-24-2010, 02:31 PM
LeBron
Durant
Kobe
Melo
Wade

coryd238
02-24-2010, 06:07 PM
People are really putting KD ahead of Melo already?? Sure, KD will eventually be better in a couple years. And he's argruably having a better season than Melo, but this is the REGULAR season guys.... let's see what he can do in the post season first, and then he can be in this discussion.