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View Full Version : TOP 50 Players by Usage and their efficiency



Chronz
02-09-2010, 07:58 PM
Curious as to what you guys make of this (Via CF.net)
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/289927/Off_possVSppp2.jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/289927/Off_possVSppp2.jpg

JordansBulls
02-09-2010, 08:06 PM
Flynn and Stuckey are on there but not Mo and Gasol?

ManRam
02-09-2010, 08:07 PM
This just further convinces me that Corey Maggette is the most underrated player in the league...and also how Trevor Ariza has no business being a #1 or #2 option. Good find.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:10 PM
Flynn and Stuckey are on there but not Mo and Gasol?
Yes, read the thread title, Gasol doesnt exactly put up a ton of shots.

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 08:12 PM
This just further convinces me that Corey Maggette is the most underrated player in the league...and also how Trevor Ariza has no business being a #1 or #2 option. Good find.

if thats the case then an argument can also be made for barganni who has a higher rating than melo.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:12 PM
This just further convinces me that Corey Maggette is the most underrated player in the league...and also how Trevor Ariza has no business being a #1 or #2 option. Good find.
Ariza has one of the more extreme skill curves, hes either really efficient in a reduced role, or an awful chucker role. Thats better than say Al Thornton whos ineffective regardless of his role.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:13 PM
if thats the case then an argument can also be made for barganni who has a higher rating than melo.

Not really bro, hes too far to the left and not high enough on the list to make that case.

C-Van
02-09-2010, 08:15 PM
David Lee is near the top, goes to show how much he has been improving. And is there any question now who the best scorer in the NBA? Looks like LBJ to me, and Kevin Durant is right behind him.

tredigs
02-09-2010, 08:16 PM
This just further convinces me that Corey Maggette is the most underrated player in the league...and also how Trevor Ariza has no business being a #1 or #2 option. Good find.

My first two thoughts also. I watch every Warriors game, he is an offensive force and VERY efficient. It's hilarious to me that he gets labeled as the biggest shot-chucking ball hog in the league (especially considering he plays with Monta). Trevor Ariza here also makes perfect sense. He's a good spot up shooter and a great defender, the sooner him and the Rockets realize that this doesn't translate into a playmaker, the better chance they have of making the playoffs.

Edit: And yeah, this is some of the most blatant evidence yet for Lebron and Durant being leagues ahead of Kobe in the MVP race.

If you can't see Lebron/Kobe/Durant, etc because they're blocked by the ads like mine were, download this: http://adsweep.org/ (Or just click the link)

ManRam
02-09-2010, 08:17 PM
if thats the case then an argument can also be made for barganni who has a higher rating than melo.

Nah. The lefter you are the higher you should be. He takes shots pretty much when they come to him, thus, he takes easier shots. The more shots you take, naturally, the less points per possession you'll get because you're taking more difficult shots...and probably get more attention on defense.

LeBron being that high, considering he is that far right, is amazing. Same with KD.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:20 PM
My first two thoughts also. I watch every Warriors game, he is an offensive force and VERY efficient. It's hilarious to me that he gets labeled as the biggest shot-chucking ball hog in the league (especially considering he plays with Monta). Trevor Ariza here also makes perfect sense. He's a good spot up shooter and a great defender, the sooner him and the Rockets realize that this doesn't translate into a playmaker, the better chance they have of making the playoffs.

Yes and no,the Rockets want Ariza taking those shots because it makes other players better. On every team there are a certain # of possessions where you need a player to make bail out shots. Ariza is the most efficient option in those scenarios. Someone has to take the shots. Trust me, Morey KNOWS stats better than anyone, he knows Ariza's skill curve and doesnt envision him playing this way next year. They just need him to get outside his comfort zone so that come this time next year, hes an improved version of what he did for the Lakers.

ARMIN12NBA
02-09-2010, 08:21 PM
The Usage stat still has its flaws and it doesn't prove a ton, but this is still interesting.

tredigs
02-09-2010, 08:26 PM
Yes and no,the Rockets want Ariza taking those shots because it makes other players better. On every team there are a certain # of possessions where you need a player to make bail out shots. Ariza is the most efficient option in those scenarios. Someone has to take the shots. Trust me, Morey KNOWS stats better than anyone, he knows Ariza's skill curve and doesnt envision him playing this way next year. They just need him to get outside his comfort zone so that come this time next year, hes an improved version of what he did for the Lakers.

Fair enough, but he also takes his fair share of "bail out shots" with 15 seconds left on the clock. If I'm a rocket fan, I want either Aaron Brooks or even Scola or Landry (if they're open within 15) taking a shot-clock shot. Then Ariza.

Props again to LBJ/Durant, jesus that's insanely efficient for that much offense.

Legitimate
02-09-2010, 08:42 PM
wow chronz as much as i dislike u(and most of your posts) this is a great find!!lookin at this shows me that corey magette probably be a all-star and that bosh is more efficient than dirk. it shows me that bargnani would probably be an all-star if we didn't have bosh on this team..it shows me a lot of cool things..:D

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 08:42 PM
Not really bro, hes too far to the left and not high enough on the list to make that case.

do u know how to read that graph? less to the left is LESS possessions and higher up is more points. so bargs gets MORE points on LESS possessions. essentially, the higher up and left you are, the more efficient you are, at least thats what the graph implies.

torontosports10
02-09-2010, 08:42 PM
Of that just makes Bargs very efficent on the offensive end...which he is.

ManRam
02-09-2010, 08:44 PM
do u know how to read that graph? less to the left is LESS possessions and higher up is more points. so bargs gets MORE points on LESS possessions. essentially, the higher up and left you are, the more efficient you are, at least thats what the graph implies.

It's expected to have a higher point per possession on less attempts than it is for more attempts. It is harder to score when you are relied upon to do it all the time. Where Bargs is is not terribly amazing.

Legitimate
02-09-2010, 08:45 PM
it also shows me that good things happen when the ball is in LBJ n durants hands

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 08:46 PM
Nah. The lefter you are the higher you should be. He takes shots pretty much when they come to him, thus, he takes easier shots. The more shots you take, naturally, the less points per possession you'll get because you're taking more difficult shots...and probably get more attention on defense.

LeBron being that high, considering he is that far right, is amazing. Same with KD.

left or right doesnt determine SHOT ATTEMPTS. it determines POSSESSIONS. how many times you have the ball in your hands. so youre argument concerning shot difficulty and volume would be VARIABLES in this case and irrelevant because the only number that is a fixed term is the number of possessions. this graph has nothing to do with shot attempts.

Kakaroach
02-09-2010, 08:46 PM
Nice to see Boozer and D. Will so high up in both categories.

Legitimate
02-09-2010, 08:48 PM
i wonder why raps are a top offensive team in the nba..wow..cb4 is top 3 in offensive efficiency..MVP MVP MVP

ManRam
02-09-2010, 08:48 PM
left or right doesnt determine SHOT ATTEMPTS. it determines POSSESSIONS. how many times you have the ball in your hands. so youre argument concerning shot difficulty and volume would be VARIABLES in this case and irrelevant because the only number that is a fixed term is the number of possessions. this graph has nothing to do with shot attempts.

I'm not saying it does. Look at it like this. If Kobe wasn't required to possess the ball so much, and only possessed it when the offense came to him, or only shot it when the ball came to him, his points per possession would sky rocket. When you are less a part of the offense, the better shots, more more possessions you will get in the natural flow of the offense.

And FGA is by far the most influential variable in usage rating.

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 08:51 PM
all in all this graph is incorrectly drawn up lol. the data being shown doesnt really tie in together because you have a GIVEN stat on one side (up and down) and an irrelevant stat on the other (side to side). for this graph to REALLY make sense, it would have to be total points (up and down) and total possessions (side to side). using an average going up and down will completely misconstrue the end data. not that anyone cares since this isnt math class....

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 08:52 PM
I'm not saying it does. Look at it like this. If Kobe wasn't required to possess the ball so much, and only possessed it when the offense came to him, or only shot it when the ball came to him, his points per possession would sky rocket. When you are less a part of the offense, the better shots, more more possessions you will get in the natural flow of the offense.

And FGA is by far the most influential variable in usage rating.

which is why this graph is flawed.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:52 PM
do u know how to read that graph? less to the left is LESS possessions and higher up is more points. so bargs gets MORE points on LESS possessions. essentially, the higher up and left you are, the more efficient you are, at least thats what the graph implies.
Your confusing PPP (Points Per Possession) with PTS. The graph isnt implying that hes scoring as much with less, it implies that given his reduced role hes scoring at this rate PER POSSESSION. Like the more possessions you use, the lower your per possession rating should go. In theory atleast but alot of players have their own unique skill curve.

If you guys want to see the relationship between usage and efficiency (or any other stat) in a motion chart go here;
http://www.hoopdata.com/recent.aspx?aid=139


The Usage stat still has its flaws and it doesn't prove a ton, but this is still interesting.
Usage is only meant to be more telling than raw averages and I disagree with your opinion. The only thing more we can do is add a touches count, and break down the possessions into zones/play types. And that gos beyond anything available to us, unless you got a handy synergy account. Your basically saying if this doesnt prove anything then nobody should ever post stats here. Like ever and quite frankly I dont agree with that. Just pretend Kobe isnt involved and Im sure the list is fine with you

ManRam
02-09-2010, 08:53 PM
which is why this graph is flawed.

Why? Are you saying FGA shouldn't be taken into consideration when concerning usage? I think it should definitely be the most important variable.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:54 PM
all in all this graph is incorrectly drawn up lol. the data being shown doesnt really tie in together because you have a GIVEN stat on one side (up and down) and an irrelevant stat on the other (side to side). for this graph to REALLY make sense, it would have to be total points (up and down) and total possessions (side to side). using an average going up and down will completely misconstrue the end data. not that anyone cares since this isnt math class....
Yea I may have made the mistake in thinking it was usage but it seems to be just a possession count. It does change the participants but not by much and its never irrelevant to know a players success rate. Unless you totally dont care about winning, in which case KUDOS.


left or right doesnt determine SHOT ATTEMPTS. it determines POSSESSIONS. how many times you have the ball in your hands. so youre argument concerning shot difficulty and volume would be VARIABLES in this case and irrelevant because the only number that is a fixed term is the number of possessions. this graph has nothing to do with shot attempts.
Now your confusing touches with possessions. Not sure where your getting it has nothing to do with shot attempts.

ManRam
02-09-2010, 08:57 PM
Yea I may have made the mistake in thinking it was usage but it seems to be just a possession count. It does change the participants but not by much and its never irrelevant to know a players success rate. Unless you totally dont care about winning, in which case KUDOS.

Hmm...

I think usage rating is more telling than just pure possession count.

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Your confusing PPP (Points Per Possession) with PTS. The graph isnt implying that hes scoring as much with less, it implies that given his reduced role hes scoring at this rate PER POSSESSION. Like the more possessions you use, the lower your per possession rating should go. In theory atleast but alot of players have their own unique skill curve.

If you guys want to see the relationship between usage and efficiency (or any other stat) in a motion chart go here;
http://www.hoopdata.com/recent.aspx?aid=139


that doesnt make sense though because PPP is already an avg determined from the relationship between pts and possessions. therefore, if your number ot total possessions increased or decreased further, so would would PPP in this case. i agree with what you are saying and i understand it. what im saying is that the values supplied in that graph do not work together to provide a set of data can properly determine a players eff. this graph is flawed in that sense.

Chronz
02-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Hmm...

I think usage rating is more telling than just pure possession count.

Yea I think thats his beef, if its a possession count may as well be raw pt totals, but the graph would be absurdly large in that case. Its basically the same thing but the results would look slightly different. Check out the link from hoopdata for usage and efficiency.

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 09:00 PM
Why? Are you saying FGA shouldn't be taken into consideration when concerning usage? I think it should definitely be the most important variable.

no im saying FGA is vital should have been incorporated into this graph when concerning points. you dont gain pts from possessions, but you do from FGA

ARMIN12NBA
02-09-2010, 09:02 PM
Usage is only meant to be more telling than raw averages and I disagree with your opinion. The only thing more we can do is add a touches count, and break down the possessions into zones/play types. And that gos beyond anything available to us, unless you got a handy synergy account. Your basically saying if this doesnt prove anything then nobody should ever post stats here. Like ever and quite frankly I dont agree with that. Just pretend Kobe isnt involved and Im sure the list is fine with you

That is exactly what I am talking about. That is true usage. BTW--The chart doesn't seem to reflect usage, only the raw statistics of possessions which you speak of.

jsumadchat
02-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Yea I may have made the mistake in thinking it was usage but it seems to be just a possession count. It does change the participants but not by much and its never irrelevant to know a players success rate. Unless you totally dont care about winning, in which case KUDOS.

this graph doesnt display anything pertaining to success rate though, which i find to be useless. without using data that correlate with each other, this particular graph is useless in retrieving useful information.



Now your confusing touches with possessions. Not sure where your getting it has nothing to do with shot attempts.

i was referring to manram. lol this is really an interesting debate you've sparked. thank god no one has started flaming yet. you give PSD hope haha

Chronz
02-09-2010, 09:12 PM
that doesnt make sense though because PPP is already an avg determined from the relationship between pts and possessions. therefore, if your number ot total possessions increased or decreased further, so would would PPP in this case. i agree with what you are saying and i understand it. what im saying is that the values supplied in that graph do not work together to provide a set of data can properly determine a players eff. this graph is flawed in that sense.
Thats not whats happening at all.

If a player shot 4/10 and another player shot 6/10 their usage is the same but their efficiency is drastically different. Think of it as rushing yards accompanied by per carry measurements. If those same players were no longer in a situation where they took the bail out shots say player a shot 4/8 and player b shot 6-8 their usage would have decrease but on a per possession basis their efficiency has risen.

For a true to life example look up Pau's #'s.

JIDsanity
02-09-2010, 09:23 PM
Seeing how David Lee can hit that mid range, and has a similar game to Yi Id love to see him next to Lopez. Could be interesting

Raph12
02-09-2010, 09:31 PM
Good find

WSU Tony
02-09-2010, 09:59 PM
But can they play defense?

montazingmvp
02-10-2010, 02:26 PM
Ariza has one of the more extreme skill curves, hes either really efficient in a reduced role, or an awful chucker role. Thats better than say Al Thornton whos ineffective regardless of his role.

monta ellis is similar to ariza in that respect...expect a better version of, of course

Chronz
02-10-2010, 02:59 PM
monta ellis is similar to ariza in that respect...expect a better version of, of course

You know what, if thats true then I owe Monta an apology but I dont buy it, I truly think this is his own doing and/or that his injuries have robbed him of that ability. Time will tell

ChiSox219
02-10-2010, 03:07 PM
For the love of god (no pun) why do the T'Wolves continue to more minutes to Flynn and less to Sessions?

mjt20mik
02-10-2010, 04:48 PM
With Kobe's supporting cast, it's a shame he's that high on offensive possessions.

montazingmvp
02-10-2010, 04:51 PM
You know what, if thats true then I owe Monta an apology but I dont buy it, I truly think this is his own doing and/or that his injuries have robbed him of that ability. Time will tell

well he was super efficient two years ago...

when you say he did this to himself do you mean through the moped accident...

Chronz
02-10-2010, 05:11 PM
well he was super efficient two years ago...

when you say he did this to himself do you mean through the moped accident...

YUP, he was super efficient before the accident and before his lovefest with the midrange game.

Chronz
02-10-2010, 05:12 PM
For the love of god (no pun) why do the T'Wolves continue to more minutes to Flynn and less to Sessions?

At first I thought it was because they didnt like the way the triangle worked with 2 combo guards on the floor, but Phil has no problem using a 3 guard front.

magichatnumber9
02-10-2010, 05:31 PM
I notice there are no Celtics on this list. Get the **** out of here with this hack a stat.

Chronz
02-10-2010, 05:35 PM
I notice there are no Celtics on this list. Get the **** out of here with this hack a stat.

Why would there be a Celtic on the list? I suggest you ask questions instead of bashing something thats painfully easy to see you dont understand.

ChiSox219
02-10-2010, 05:44 PM
Why would there be a Celtic on the list? I suggest you ask questions instead of bashing something thats painfully easy to see you dont understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGXFdXyOBw