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thescore53
02-02-2010, 04:29 PM
What is Andrea Bargnani league wide value

wheres his ceiling ?

next dirk, or another version of mehmet okur

if you havent see him much watch some highlights

and make educated statements

Sly Guy
02-02-2010, 04:34 PM
Pros:
1. His scoring has become consistent, and much more dynamic.
2. His one on one defense has improved, his help defense has become much better

Cons:
1. His rebounding is still prone to fits of wild inconsistency, which is awful for a starting Center.
2. His strength and conditioning are still suspect, leaving him vulnerable to bigger stronger centers, and back to back nights.

At the bargain of a price the raps locked him up for long term, if he continues to improve as he has, he may turn out to be a major steal at the price. Otherwise, if he continues to play at the level he is now, he'll be a player compensated for basically his offensive talent only.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 04:43 PM
I think the stats do a good job reflecting his worth compared to those 2

CURRENT Bargs: 16.1PER(22.3Usg%) 109 Offensive RTG (112Def), 10.6REB%

Dirk at same age: 25.6PER(27.4Usg%) 112 Offensive RTG (98Def), 14.0REB%
Dirk in his 2nd year 17.5PER(21.2Usg%) 112 Offensive RTG (107Def), 9.7REB%

Okur at same age: 18.3PER(21.7Usg%) 107 Offensive RTG (95Def), 15.4REB%
Okur as a rook: 14.3PER(19.3Usg%) 106 Offensive RTG (99Def), 14.5REB%

Dirk is a longshot, you dont see players make that kind of leap. Generally the better you are as a young phenom the better you will be when you enter your prime. If Bargs could become Dirk I think hed show us that by now.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 04:44 PM
Pros:
1. His scoring has become consistent, and much more dynamic.
2. His one on one defense has improved, his help defense has become much better

Cons:
1. His rebounding is still prone to fits of wild inconsistency, which is awful for a starting Center.
2. His strength and conditioning are still suspect, leaving him vulnerable to bigger stronger centers, and back to back nights.

At the bargain of a price the raps locked him up for long term, if he continues to improve as he has, he may turn out to be a major steal at the price. Otherwise, if he continues to play at the level he is now, he'll be a player compensated for basically his offensive talent only.

LMAO right, bargain according to what methods? Im guessing your not familiar with money ball.

If he continues to improve at this pace the Raps are in for alot of mediocrity, hes got potential but until he starts rebounding or becomes more efficient hes not worth the investment. Dirk is out of the question but if he can become an all-star caliber player then its a decent investment. Thats a far cry from a bargain of a price.

You know whats a bargain. Scolandry for like 70% of what the Raps pay for Bargs. Landry on his own is performing at an all-star rate and making 3.5M. So if Bargs is a bargain then I suggest you raise your standards.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 04:51 PM
I think the stats do a good job reflecting his worth compared to those 2

CURRENT Bargs: 16.1PER(22.3Usg%) 109 Offensive RTG (112Def), 10.6REB%

Dirk at same age: 25.6PER(27.4Usg%) 112 Offensive RTG (98Def), 14.0REB%
Dirk in his 2nd year 17.5PER(21.2Usg%) 112 Offensive RTG (107Def), 9.7REB%

Okur at same age: 18.3PER(21.7Usg%) 107 Offensive RTG (95Def), 15.4REB%
Okur as a rook: 14.3PER(19.3Usg%) 106 Offensive RTG (99Def), 14.5REB%

Dirk is a longshot, you dont see players make that kind of leap. Generally the better you are as a young phenom the better you will be when you enter your prime. If Bargs could become Dirk I think hed show us that by now.

Beat me to the punch.

Bargnani=more athletic Okur

0nekhmer
02-02-2010, 04:59 PM
@Those who say Bargs is one dimensional with no strength to defend big men, watch the Lakers game where he held Bynum and Gasol to one point in the second half.

BALLER71
02-02-2010, 05:18 PM
@Those who say Bargs is one dimensional with no strength to defend big men, watch the Lakers game where he held Bynum and Gasol to one point in the second half.

I will also watch the Heat game where he only had 3 rebounds in 35 + minutes...

Ragun
02-02-2010, 05:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/hoiduda

watch his highlights and read my sig. he has a top 5 PF playing along side him. he cant develop like dirk did who was the best big man for the mavs at the time.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 05:20 PM
I will also watch the Heat game where he only had 3 rebounds in 35 + minutes...

are you talking about the game where he scored 27 points, and made 13 of his 19 shots?

you do realize that chris bosh had 18 boards that game right?

dominater6192
02-02-2010, 05:20 PM
Very skilled scorer but that's about it. Bargnani is a below average defender and poor rebounder. His 8.4 Rebounds per 48 MIN is one of the lowest of any starting post players in NBA. He's done a great job adjusting to the more physical NBA but he still is a very finese player.
Dirk is way too optimistic, at his age Dirk was averaging 23.4 PPG and 10 RPG. Bargnani is'nt nearly as skilled in post as Dirk was at his age. Okur is more likely but I think Bargnani will be a better scorer than Okur however, not a better rebounder.

miller74
02-02-2010, 05:21 PM
He never really had the opportunity Dirk had, Dirk never had a guy like Bosh in front of him, getting more of the shots. Andrea is a 2nd option right now, and given more responsiblity he could produce better # per game

Chronz
02-02-2010, 05:22 PM
@Those who say Bargs is one dimensional with no strength to defend big men, watch the Lakers game where he held Bynum and Gasol to one point in the second half.

Well opposing PF-C are putting up a PER of 19 against the Raps, which is about what they were doing last year. Clearly hes still a poor defender

uncleben989
02-02-2010, 05:22 PM
I will also watch the Heat game where he only had 3 rebounds in 35 + minutes...

k, bosh is averaging his career high in boards, and when hes off we have amir johnson on the floor whos athletic....all of whom grab most of the boards for us.

and when your a really good shooting team like the raps, and ahve an efficient offense, offensive boards are as rare as they come

god forbid, bosh goes out for like 5 games, watch bargs rebounding average double in those games simply because of opportunity to board.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 05:24 PM
He never really had the opportunity Dirk had, Dirk never had a guy like Bosh in front of him, getting more of the shots. Andrea is a 2nd option right now, and given more responsiblity he could produce better # per game
That basically means nothing, any player if they chucked more could put up better per game averages, which is why you dont measure players by them. You measure them by the efficiency of their role. If Bargs cant be more efficient than Dirk playing in such an easy environment then he has no chance in hell of matching Dirks #'s as a #1 option.

uncleben989
02-02-2010, 05:24 PM
Well opposing PF-C are putting up a PER of 19 against the Raps, which is about what they were doing last year. Clearly hes still a poor defender

lol you can look at the PER, his heart rate, and all the stats you want, since dec. 18 (their team meeting) raps have the 3rd best record in the league and are playing their best ball with bargnani being a major part of it. so at the endof the day wins and losses are the stats i care about:D

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 05:25 PM
I will also watch the Heat game where he only had 3 rebounds in 35 + minutes...

I watched the Knicks game where Bargs was like 1-10 with more fouls than rebounds.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 05:26 PM
k, bosh is averaging his career high in boards, and when hes off we have amir johnson on the floor whos athletic....all of whom grab most of the boards for us.

and when your a really good shooting team like the raps, and ahve an efficient offense, offensive boards are as rare as they come

god forbid, bosh goes out for like 5 games, watch bargs rebounding average double in those games simply because of opportunity to board.
Sorry bro that excuse doesnt fly, rebounding efficiency is measured by the amount of AVAILABLE rebounds you corral. Nothing impacts an individuals rebounding ability than his own playing style. You take away Bosh and the teams rebounding effectiveness probably decreases thus diminishing the importance of Bargs output (however slight it may be).

sixerfixer
02-02-2010, 05:27 PM
Bargs is not a bad player for sure. And, if this were the late-70's or early 80's, and there were teams like the Doug Moe Nuggets teams, Bargs might be the most sought after player out there. He's more suited to be a PF on a fast=paced type of shooting team. Kinda like Don Nelson's Warriors team. But, he is soft, rather weak-minded. And a average to bad rebounder. But he can shoot and score, and open things up for a more Inside the paint player. So yeah, he does have value. But, he should never be considered a number one option. However, his 5 year, 50 million extension is right on target for what he brings to the table.

koreancabbage
02-02-2010, 05:29 PM
Bargs is kinda overpaid for being an inconsistent player. has one good game and disappears the next couple.

I don't know what his ceiling is anymore. As years keep coming, his ceiling decreases.

We should know he's not going to be a dynamic player like Dirk Nowitzki in the near future unless this guy becomes a go to guy and works on his rebounding.

and don't blame his poor rebounding on Bosh. The guy plays most centers every night and he's close enough to every defensive rebound every game. The guy just can't rebound. Maybe if he works on his upper body, still flabby by NBA standards

ink
02-02-2010, 05:30 PM
What is Andrea Bargnani league wide value

wheres his ceiling ?

next dirk, or another version of mehmet okur

if you havent see him much watch some highlights

and make educated statements

Why do you guys even bother? His detractors have their arguments in mothballs just waiting for the next one of these to be posted.

miller74
02-02-2010, 05:31 PM
I think the stats do a good job reflecting his worth compared to those 2

CURRENT Bargs: 16.1PER(22.3Usg%) 109 Offensive RTG (112Def), 10.6REB%

Dirk at same age: 25.6PER(27.4Usg%) 112 Offensive RTG (98Def), 14.0REB%
Dirk in his 2nd year 17.5PER(21.2Usg%) 112 Offensive RTG (107Def), 9.7REB%

Okur at same age: 18.3PER(21.7Usg%) 107 Offensive RTG (95Def), 15.4REB%
Okur as a rook: 14.3PER(19.3Usg%) 106 Offensive RTG (99Def), 14.5REB%

Dirk is a longshot, you dont see players make that kind of leap. Generally the better you are as a young phenom the better you will be when you enter your prime. If Bargs could become Dirk I think hed show us that by now.

So dont post the stats if u dont want to judge by them
I never said he would be as good as dirk i just said give him the ball more and he would get more points thats it.

uncleben989
02-02-2010, 05:33 PM
Why do you guys even bother? His detractors have their arguments in mothballs just waiting for the next one of these to be posted.

shoulda took your advice the first time lol, from now on i aint gonna bother with these threads

Ragun
02-02-2010, 05:34 PM
I watched the Knicks game where Bargs was like 1-10 with more fouls than rebounds.

its one of those games. did you see what bargnani did to the knicks in the meeting before that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4llSXCGvZ0

twoearl
02-02-2010, 05:39 PM
Okur point blank. A 3rd option at best.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 05:43 PM
Okur point blank. A 3rd option at best.

-_-

he is the 2nd option right now.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 05:44 PM
its one of those games. did you see what bargnani did to the knicks in the meeting before that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4llSXCGvZ0

One game highlights isn't going to prove anything. Bargnani is a good player but he's not close to what Dirk was at the some in his career.

Look, here's a highlight video of Tyrus Thomas, makes him look like a superstar but he isn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYXcP0Q9gS0

Ragun
02-02-2010, 05:47 PM
One game highlights isn't going to prove anything. Bargnani is a good player but he's not close to what Dirk was at the some in his career.

Look, here's a highlight video of Tyrus Thomas, makes him look like a superstar but he isn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYXcP0Q9gS0
check on the first page i posted a youtube channel that has all his highlights.

those are all dunks and blocked shots :S

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 05:52 PM
Bargs is kinda overpaid for being an inconsistent player. has one good game and disappears the next couple.

I don't know what his ceiling is anymore. As years keep coming, his ceiling decreases.

We should know he's not going to be a dynamic player like Dirk Nowitzki in the near future unless this guy becomes a go to guy and works on his rebounding.

and don't blame his poor rebounding on Bosh. The guy plays most centers every night and he's close enough to every defensive rebound every game. The guy just can't rebound. Maybe if he works on his upper body, still flabby by NBA standards

Good post, smart Raptors fan :clap:

LanceUpperCut
02-02-2010, 05:52 PM
Why do you guys even bother? His detractors have their arguments in mothballs just waiting for the next one of these to be posted.

Bingo

uncleben989
02-02-2010, 05:53 PM
One game highlights isn't going to prove anything. Bargnani is a good player but he's not close to what Dirk was at the some in his career.

Look, here's a highlight video of Tyrus Thomas, makes him look like a superstar but he isn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYXcP0Q9gS0

im not saying hes the next dirk, but to say his ceiling is not close is foolish. dirk himself said bargs is a scary matchup and that bargs is way more athletic than he ever was in an interview.

bargs aint a stud on defense by any means, but he has shown glimpses of it.

to that chronz guy, i consider bargs a bargain, i mean you got a defensless c/pf in amare demanding max money this year. bargs can definitely be better than amare in his next 5 years (altho, i can make the argument he already is close to doing so)

LanceUpperCut
02-02-2010, 05:53 PM
Not saying he is going to be as good as Dirk but according Dirk hes pretty damn good.

ink
02-02-2010, 05:55 PM
Not saying he is going to be as good as Dirk but according Dirk hes pretty damn good.

What would Dirk know? ;) Do you think he knows as much as guys on the interwebz? Doubtful.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:01 PM
im not saying hes the next dirk, but to say his ceiling is not close is foolish. dirk himself said bargs is a scary matchup and that bargs is way more athletic than he ever was in an interview.

bargs aint a stud on defense by any means, but he has shown glimpses of it.

to that chronz guy, i consider bargs a bargain, i mean you got a defensless c/pf in amare demanding max money this year. bargs can definitely be better than amare in his next 5 years (altho, i can make the argument he already is close to doing so)

lets face this: bargs will never have a shot like nowitzki...its almost impossible.

i also dont see him being a player like dirk. i think bargnani will be better at getting to the basket and blocking shots but has a worse shot. his rebounding is not good right now but it has been getting better and better every season (his sophmore season is an exception) and dirk nowitzki averaged almost identical numbers to bargnani in his 2nd season.

there is currently no player in the NBA right now that plays like Bargnani. The 2 closest players I can think of are Dirk and Okur but Bargnani has a better slashing game then both and is more athletic.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 06:06 PM
im not saying hes the next dirk, but to say his ceiling is not close is foolish. dirk himself said bargs is a scary matchup and that bargs is way more athletic than he ever was in an interview.

bargs aint a stud on defense by any means, but he has shown glimpses of it.

to that chronz guy, i consider bargs a bargain, i mean you got a defensless c/pf in amare demanding max money this year. bargs can definitely be better than amare in his next 5 years (altho, i can make the argument he already is close to doing so)

I'm not going to say it's foolish but inaccurate. This far into his career we've got a solid idea of what Bargnani is. He will certainly improve and smooth out the rough edges in his game but his ceiling isn't really close to Dirk. There's few exceptions where guys playing regular minutes for four years break out, the only guy I can think of is Josh Smith but I'm sure there's a couple more.


What would Dirk know? ;) Do you think he knows as much as guys on the interwebz? Doubtful.

Michael Jordan knows how to judge talent so well

Wilt said someone other than Bill Russell was the best at defending him

What is Dirk gonna say? "Bargnani sucks, when I was his age, hell when I was younger than he is now, I was averaging 20-10 and had a 3pt contest title under my belt." :laugh:


Players say stuff, sometimes they don't mean it, are being modest, and sometimes they are taken out of context...

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:08 PM
I'm not going to say it's foolish but inaccurate. This far into his career we've got a solid idea of what Bargnani is. He will certainly improve and smooth out the rough edges in his game but his ceiling isn't really close to Dirk. There's few exceptions where guys playing regular minutes for four years break out, the only guy I can think of is Josh Smith but I'm sure there's a couple more.



Michael Jordan knows how to judge talent so well

Wilt said someone other than Bill Russell was the best at defending him

What is Dirk gonna say? "Bargnani sucks, when I was his age, hell when I was younger than he is now, I was averaging 20-10 and had a 3pt contest title under my belt." :laugh:


Players say stuff, sometimes they don't mean it, are being modest, and sometimes they are taken out of context...
read my sig...thats true...thats not a lie. bargnani is faster and more explosive than dirk.

xxepo
02-02-2010, 06:09 PM
Well bargs first two years he was coached by sam and did he ever have a leash on him ...soon as jay came in that all changed its like he was a new player I guess oneil had a good part in his development as well...

Chronz
02-02-2010, 06:10 PM
So dont post the stats if u dont want to judge by them
I never said he would be as good as dirk i just said give him the ball more and he would get more points thats it.
I dont understand I didnt post per game averages. And I know what you said, Im saying its basically the equivalent of saying the sky is blue, with about as much importance as well.

These stats measure the efficiency of a player in his role, regardless of pace. You judge them by the #'s I posted, and the excuses you gave dont apply.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 06:10 PM
read my sig...thats true...thats not a lie. bargnani is faster and more explosive than dirk.

Tyrus Thomas is faster and more explosive than both. So what?

Chronz
02-02-2010, 06:11 PM
to that chronz guy, i consider bargs a bargain, i mean you got a defensless c/pf in amare demanding max money this year. bargs can definitely be better than amare in his next 5 years (altho, i can make the argument he already is close to doing so)

Amare at a younger age did more than Bargs is doing now, he doesnt stand a chance in the Amare comparison. Id LOVE to hear that case

ink
02-02-2010, 06:12 PM
lets face this: bargs will never have a shot like nowitzki...its almost impossible.

i also dont see him being a player like dirk. i think bargnani will be better at getting to the basket and blocking shots but has a worse shot. his rebounding is not good right now but it has been getting better and better every season (his sophmore season is an exception) and dirk nowitzki averaged almost identical numbers to bargnani in his 2nd season.

there is currently no player in the NBA right now that plays like Bargnani. The 2 closest players I can think of are Dirk and Okur but Bargnani has a better slashing game then both and is more athletic.

Good post. And coming from someone who actually watches him play regularly, it has a bit more credibility. There is no doubt there are holes in his game, and there is no doubt he's not Dirk or ever going to be Dirk. But then again, did I miss some rule that said he's a crap player if he doesn't reach Dirk's levels or play like Dirk? lol. What people forget is that Dirk came right into the league and played his natural position. Bargnani did not. In fact, he had to convert from a 3, which is what he played in Europe, to a 5. That's a massive leap. Combine that with the fact that the way Bargnani is being coached to play C is extremely unorthodox. It's not surprising that Bargnani's learning curve has been slower. It's about context and understanding the situation fairly.

His numbers are just not going to match very well with traditional big men, even when his delayed learning curve starts to peak. And to the Raptors fan who said he was inconsistent, that really hasn't been the case this year. He was extremely consistent right through January until he injured his foot just before the Knicks game someone else cited. He actually played a string of bigs -- Howard, Duncan, and Dirk -- extremely well. But he will be his own player. The approach the Raptors are using with him at the 5 is very unconventional and makes him look a lot worse statistically than he really is. He's learning, and he keeps making breakthroughs. Definitely a good player, not sure how high his ceiling is.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 06:12 PM
What would Dirk know? ;) Do you think he knows as much as guys on the interwebz? Doubtful.

LOL yea just like when Kobe said Gerald Green reminds him alot of himself at that age. Or when Tmac said something similar about Dorrell Wright. I put more stock in performance than player opinions.

ink
02-02-2010, 06:13 PM
Players say stuff, sometimes they don't mean it, are being modest, and sometimes they are taken out of context...

And fans on the interwebz say stuff and take it out of context because they aren't aware of the situation that preceded the interview. :rolleyes:

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 06:14 PM
And fans on the interwebz say stuff and take it out of context because they aren't aware of the situation that preceded the interview. :rolleyes:

cool?

dominater6192
02-02-2010, 06:16 PM
He never really had the opportunity Dirk had, Dirk never had a guy like Bosh in front of him, getting more of the shots. Andrea is a 2nd option right now, and given more responsiblity he could produce better # per game

Yeah but then again it is Bosh's game that opens up so much of Bargnani's, who knows how good produciton Bargnani would have if Bosh did'nt demand a double team on the post and open up good looks for Bargnani or if Bosh did'nt space the floor how successful Bargnani would be at driving to basket. Honestly, I do'nt think Bargnani could be that number one guy, he is a good second option but nothing more.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
02-02-2010, 06:17 PM
next Antoine Walker at best

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:19 PM
Tyrus Thomas is faster and more explosive than both. So what?

he cant slash as well as bargnani though but he is a better open court player for sure. tyrus thomas has hell of a lot of potential too and he shows flashes.

but bargnani and tt are 2 different players.

ink
02-02-2010, 06:20 PM
Well bargs first two years he was coached by sam and did he ever have a leash on him ...soon as jay came in that all changed its like he was a new player I guess oneil had a good part in his development as well...

That is actually a very good point. Being asked to play C in the NBA after you were developed as a SF/F in Europe and then getting Sam Mitchell as your coach for the first two years doesn't do much for a player's development. Undoubtedly one of the main reasons why Mitchell was axed. As you say, Bargnani's development and play took off when Triano took over.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 06:21 PM
Good post. And coming from someone who actually watches him play regularly, it has a bit more credibility. There is no doubt there are holes in his game, and there is no doubt he's not Dirk or ever going to be Dirk. But then again, did I miss some rule that said he's a crap player if he doesn't reach Dirk's levels or play like Dirk? lol.
I dont think thats whats being said, Im pretty sure we all recognize he can become an all-star. Hes improved every year so I dont expect that to stop all of sudden, especially considering bigmen develop slowly.


What people forget is that Dirk came right into the league and played his natural position. Bargnani did not. In fact, he had to convert from a 3, which is what he played in Europe, to a 5. That's a massive leap. Combine that with the fact that the way Bargnani is being coached to play C is extremely unorthodox.
Are you sure, I do recall him playing the 3 and Don Nelson trying to miscast him as a playmaker, while trying to get Nash to shoot. It didnt stick but I also remember him sharing the BIGs minutes with Juwan Howard and Shawn Bradley. But yea hes always been utilized perfectly. I feel Bargs will never reach his potential as a center. Dirk didnt, but again he handled the role so much better.

ink
02-02-2010, 06:23 PM
he cant slash as well as bargnani though but he is a better open court player for sure. tyrus thomas has hell of a lot of potential too and he shows flashes.

but bargnani and tt are 2 different players.

Exactly why these comparisons are fairly weak. There are not a lot of players being developed to play the way Bargnani is. If his development is slower than players who play their roles conventionally and play the same roles they played in college, comparing the stats of the first few years is not going to be very significant.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 06:28 PM
next Antoine Walker at best

:eyebrow:


he cant slash as well as bargnani though but he is a better open court player for sure. tyrus thomas has hell of a lot of potential too and he shows flashes.

but bargnani and tt are 2 different players.

I'm not trying to compare the two. Just because a guy says another player is more explosive, quick, blah, blah... it doesn't really mean anything. Like Chronz pointed out, Kobe compared Gerald Green to Kobe :facepalm:

It's not a very strong argument and it's not going to sway anyone.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:29 PM
Exactly why these comparisons are fairly weak. There are not a lot of players being developed to play the way Bargnani is. If his development is slower than players who play their roles conventionally and play the same roles they played in college, comparing the stats of the first few years is not going to be very significant.

there are a lot of players that have separate aspects of bargnani's game but none that have all of that put together in a 250-260 lb 7 foot body.

and he keeps getting better and better every year.

masalex1205
02-02-2010, 06:29 PM
good offensive game, below average defender, bad rebounder, overpaid

Bricklayer
02-02-2010, 06:33 PM
good offensive game, below average defender, bad rebounder, overpaid

Don't you mean to say......Great offensive game, good defender, bad rebounder, paid at what the market indicates?

I think thats what you meant to say.;)

nyanks79
02-02-2010, 06:33 PM
What would Dirk know? ;) Do you think he knows as much as guys on the interwebz? Doubtful.

Dirk also said this about Gallinari.

"I mean, he's got an unbelievable stroke," Nowitzki told Newsday. "He looks like he's comfortable with the guys. His English has gotten better, so the sky's the limit." It should be noted that both players had troubling rookie seasons. Nowitzki struggled so badly in the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season that he considered leaving the NBA to return to Germany. Gallinari's rookie season last year was truncated by a back injury that required season-ending surgery in March. "I think in the beginning it was important for me to just keep learning; keep my eyes and ears open, learn from the veterans and if he does that -- he's got a couple of veterans around him -- I think he's going to be all right," Nowitzki said. "But I'm really impressed with what he's been doing this year."

Does that mean that he is going to be the next Dirk? Players talk alot. Just because Dirk says something dosent mean Bargs is going to be amazing.

ink
02-02-2010, 06:34 PM
Don't you mean to say......Great offensive game, good defender, bad rebounder, paid at what the market indicates?

I think thats what you meant to say.;)

Your translation seems accurate sir. :laugh:

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:36 PM
:eyebrow:



I'm not trying to compare the two. Just because a guy says another player is more explosive, quick, blah, blah... it doesn't really mean anything. Like Chronz pointed out, Kobe compared Gerald Green to Kobe :facepalm:

It's not a very strong argument and it's not going to sway anyone.

wait wait. im not comparing anyone to anybody. a lot of players can be compared to kobe cause there are many 6'6' high flyers that can shoot but none with the strength, IQ, work ethic...etc...Brandon Roy is the next Kobe :D

but comparing a player who has never played an NBA game with another NBA player is totally different from comparing a player who has played in the NBA, showed flashes and putting up similar numbers to another player. bargs 4th year and dirk's 2nd year stats are so similar, that its scary.

once again im not saying bargs is the next dirk but they do have their similarities and their differences.

ink
02-02-2010, 06:38 PM
Dirk also said this about Gallinari.

"I mean, he's got an unbelievable stroke," Nowitzki told Newsday. "He looks like he's comfortable with the guys. His English has gotten better, so the sky's the limit." It should be noted that both players had troubling rookie seasons. Nowitzki struggled so badly in the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season that he considered leaving the NBA to return to Germany. Gallinari's rookie season last year was truncated by a back injury that required season-ending surgery in March. "I think in the beginning it was important for me to just keep learning; keep my eyes and ears open, learn from the veterans and if he does that -- he's got a couple of veterans around him -- I think he's going to be all right," Nowitzki said. "But I'm really impressed with what he's been doing this year."

Does that mean that he is going to be the next Dirk? Players talk alot. Just because Dirk says something dosent mean Bargs is going to be amazing.

I didn't see him say he was going to be the next Dirk anywhere. Seems THAT'S one of the main fallacies here: that players have to match up with some artificial comparison against another player to prove their value. Gallinari, Bargnani, you name it, they're going to be their own players. They aren't the ones making the lame comparisons. I found Dirk's comments on Gallinari pretty straight actually.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:40 PM
Dirk also said this about Gallinari.

"I mean, he's got an unbelievable stroke," Nowitzki told Newsday. "He looks like he's comfortable with the guys. His English has gotten better, so the sky's the limit." It should be noted that both players had troubling rookie seasons. Nowitzki struggled so badly in the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season that he considered leaving the NBA to return to Germany. Gallinari's rookie season last year was truncated by a back injury that required season-ending surgery in March. "I think in the beginning it was important for me to just keep learning; keep my eyes and ears open, learn from the veterans and if he does that -- he's got a couple of veterans around him -- I think he's going to be all right," Nowitzki said. "But I'm really impressed with what he's been doing this year."

Does that mean that he is going to be the next Dirk? Players talk alot. Just because Dirk says something dosent mean Bargs is going to be amazing.
dude. galli is a SF, smaller body than dirk. there are so many more differences than similarities if you compare these 2. the only 2 similarities i can think of is that galli and dirk have great shots (2 of the best in the NBA) and that they are both from Europe.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 06:41 PM
wait wait. im not comparing anyone to anybody. a lot of players can be compared to kobe cause there are many 6'6' high flyers that can shoot but none with the strength, IQ, work ethic...etc...Brandon Roy is the next Kobe :D

but comparing a player who has never played an NBA game with another NBA player is totally different from comparing a player who has played in the NBA, showed flashes and putting up similar numbers to another player. bargs 4th year and dirk's 2nd year stats are so similar, that its scary.

once again im not saying bargs is the next dirk but they do have their similarities and their differences.

Why do this, why not compare Dirk's 4th year with Bargs 4th year, or Dirk at 24 and Bargnani at 24?

Most great players make their jump during year two to year three. Their are exceptions but most of those guys that make the jump later in their career either weren't getting proper minutes or their athleticism severely outweighed their skill/IQ.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:41 PM
but i do see gallo becoming a better shooting turkoglu. anyone agree?

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:45 PM
Why do this, why not compare Dirk's 4th year with Bargs 4th year, or Dirk at 24 and Bargnani at 24?

Most great players make their jump during year two to year three. Their are exceptions but most of those guys that make the jump later in their career either weren't getting proper minutes or their athleticism severely outweighed their skill/IQ.

cause i dont think its fair you compare Dirk's 4th year and Barg's 4th year. because of who they play with. did Dirk have a 24/11 big man playing alongside him during his 2nd year or ever?

i really dont see bosh getting trade over the summer in a sign and trade. because that allows bargs to step up and be the #1 option. he has the potential of #1, superstar and even a franchise player.

JC_
02-02-2010, 06:45 PM
:eyebrow:



I'm not trying to compare the two. Just because a guy says another player is more explosive, quick, blah, blah... it doesn't really mean anything.


It means something if it's true but to know whether it's true or not you'd have to actually watch some games. I realize a lot of people on here just like debating for the sake of debating but it gets annoying seeing so many people comment like they are experts when they clearly haven't watched enough to know much of anything.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 06:50 PM
It means something if it's true but to know whether it's true or not you'd have to actually watch some games. I realize a lot of people on here just like debating for the sake of debating but it gets annoying seeing so many people comment like they are experts when they clearly haven't watched enough to know much of anything.

i hate debating TBH and i just like to make posts such as "sup hoe" or "lol" or ":smiley:"

but i do sometimes when i have to. and in this case im sticking up for my man bargs.

nyanks79
02-02-2010, 06:52 PM
dude. galli is a SF, smaller body than dirk. there are so many more differences than similarities if you compare these 2. the only 2 similarities i can think of is that galli and dirk have great shots (2 of the best in the NBA) and that they are both from Europe.

Gallo is 6'10.5 6'11 and is still growing. He is 21. He is going to continue to grow and definatly gain strenth, and will eventually become a PF, just like Dirk. Gallo has a decent handle, and shoots the 3 just like Dirk. Gallinari has shown alot of flashes to be similar to Dirk. He doesent post up as much, but when he has, he has shown a similar fade shot as Dirk. Now this is only flashes, but to see there are not many similarities is not true. Will he be as good as Dirk? No. But he definatly has shown flashes, just like Bargs has. Who knows what will happen. But this is Bargs 4th season, while it is basically Gallos rookie year. Im not trying to compare the 2, but to say Dirk can say sometihng about Bargs and that you compare them, but dismiss the Gallo comparisons is not fair.

ink
02-02-2010, 06:58 PM
Gallo is 6'10.5 6'11 and is still growing. He is 21. He is going to continue to grow and definatly gain strenth, and will eventually become a PF, just like Dirk. Gallo has a decent handle, and shoots the 3 just like Dirk. Gallinari has shown alot of flashes to be similar to Dirk. He doesent post up as much, but when he has, he has shown a similar fade shot as Dirk. Now this is only flashes, but to see there are not many similarities is not true. Will he be as good as Dirk? No. But he definatly has shown flashes, just like Bargs has. Who knows what will happen. But this is Bargs 4th season, while it is basically Gallos rookie year. Im not trying to compare the 2, but to say Dirk can say sometihng about Bargs and that you compare them, but dismiss the Gallo comparisons is not fair.

I don't think the comparisons mean anything at all actually. It's just stuff that fans talk about.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 07:02 PM
cause i dont think its fair you compare Dirk's 4th year and Barg's 4th year. because of who they play with. did Dirk have a 24/11 big man playing alongside him during his 2nd year or ever?

i really dont see bosh getting trade over the summer in a sign and trade. because that allows bargs to step up and be the #1 option. he has the potential of #1, superstar and even a franchise player.

Bargnani is extremely fortunate to have Bosh, he's a great post threat and the overwhelming majority (80%) of Bargs' shots come from outside the paint. Teams have help on Bosh and it can mess up rotations and lead to open looks. Look at the percentage of Bargnani's shots that assisted. From every distance Bargs shots are assisted at a rate much higher than the league average.

You think he's getting all those looks without Bosh? Maybe he grabs a few more rebounds (Amir Johnson is a fantastic rebounder and could step in if Bosh leaves) but he's going to have to create his own shot more often and see worse looks from the perimeter.

I want to see the Raptors try a lineup like this:

PG Jack
SG Derozan or Weems
SF Bargnani
PF Amir
C Bosh

6th Hedo
7th Calderon

ink
02-02-2010, 07:06 PM
Bargnani is extremely fortunate to have Bosh, he's a great post threat and the overwhelming majority (80%) of Bargs' shots come from outside the paint. Teams have help on Bosh and it can mess up rotations and lead to open looks. Look at the percentage of Bargnani's shots that assisted. From every distance Bargs shots are assisted at a rate much higher than the league average.

You think he's getting all those looks without Bosh? Maybe he grabs a few more rebounds (Amir Johnson is a fantastic rebounder and could step in if Bosh leaves) but he's going to have to create his own shot more often and see worse looks from the perimeter.

I want to see the Raptors try a lineup like this:

PG Jack
SG Derozan or Weems
SF Bargnani
PF Amir
C Bosh

6th Hedo
7th Calderon

That was tried and it was a major flop. Another reason why Bargnani's development has not been as fast as a future HOFer was that they tried him at the 3 when they had JO. After that, it became apparent they had to get rid of O'Neal.

And of course Bosh is going to help Bargnani. Right now it's mutual too. There have been games this year where Andrea has outshone Bosh. Do you think Dirk didn't get any help from Michael Finley and Steve Nash? These guys don't play in a vacuum in a team sport.

Kakaroach
02-02-2010, 07:08 PM
I'd say high, cuz he has actually shown he can become an All-Star type player the past 2 years.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 07:20 PM
That was tried and it was a major flop. Another reason why Bargnani's development has not been as fast as a future HOFer was that they tried him at the 3 when they had JO. After that, it became apparent they had to get rid of O'Neal.

And of course Bosh is going to help Bargnani. Right now it's mutual too. There have been games this year where Andrea has outshone Bosh. Do you think Dirk didn't get any help from Michael Finley and Steve Nash? These guys don't play in a vacuum in a team sport.

When did they try this? Didn't someone say Bargnani was a natural 3 coming into the league?

Ragun
02-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Bargnani is extremely fortunate to have Bosh, he's a great post threat and the overwhelming majority (80%) of Bargs' shots come from outside the paint. Teams have help on Bosh and it can mess up rotations and lead to open looks. Look at the percentage of Bargnani's shots that assisted. From every distance Bargs shots are assisted at a rate much higher than the league average.

You think he's getting all those looks without Bosh? Maybe he grabs a few more rebounds (Amir Johnson is a fantastic rebounder and could step in if Bosh leaves) but he's going to have to create his own shot more often and see worse looks from the perimeter.

I want to see the Raptors try a lineup like this:

PG Jack
SG Derozan or Weems
SF Bargnani
PF Amir
C Bosh

6th Hedo
7th Calderon

if bosh wasnt in the paint, bargs would. bargs cant be blocked when he posts up cause he would just post you in and do a weird right hand hook or he would just drop an unblockable fadeaway on your ***.

its a plus that bargs can make open shots but he is great stop and pop shooter also. its not hard to set up plays such as picks to get bargnani open. bosh takes more jumpshots then actually posting up and shooting within 8 feet of the rim.

bargnani can create shots for himself and thats one of the reasons why i think he can become a #1 option soon in this league. he still has to clean up his post moves.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 07:26 PM
o and also bargs spaces out the floor for bosh...if he gets double teamed kick out to bargs or the wings but if there is a single coverage on bosh, send it back and bosh should be able to take care of the rest unless he is double or tripled again.

bargnani cant guard SFs.

ink
02-02-2010, 07:30 PM
When did they try this? Didn't someone say Bargnani was a natural 3 coming into the league?

Two years ago when they had JO. Yes, I said that he had to convert from being a European league 3 to being an NBA 5. But he can't guard NBA three's. And the athletic advantage he has as a 5 is reversed when he's matched up against 3s. This has been a very challenging learning curve for the guy. He is a lot better than his career stats show. They don't tell the whole story of his development at all.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 07:39 PM
That was tried and it was a major flop. Another reason why Bargnani's development has not been as fast as a future HOFer was that they tried him at the 3 when they had JO. After that, it became apparent they had to get rid of O'Neal.

And of course Bosh is going to help Bargnani. Right now it's mutual too. There have been games this year where Andrea has outshone Bosh. Do you think Dirk didn't get any help from Michael Finley and Steve Nash? These guys don't play in a vacuum in a team sport.


Two years ago when they had JO. Yes, I said that he had to convert from being a European league 3 to being an NBA 5. But he can't guard NBA three's. And the athletic advantage he has as a 5 is reversed when he's matched up against 3s. This has been a very challenging learning curve for the guy. He is a lot better than his career stats show. They don't tell the whole story of his development at all.

My thinking is that Amir and Bosh in at the 4/5 is a much better last line of defense than Bargnani/x. I know Bargs will struggle to guard 3's, but he can't really guard 4's or 5's that well either. It's a net upgrade defensively to have Bargnani-Amir vs Hedo-Bargs.

Two years ago is a long time considering the Raptors changes and Bargnani is better accustomed to the league, I'd like to see them try it at least for a little bit. Maybe it kick starts Turkoglu's game much the way John Salmons caught fire when he was moved out of the starting lineup to the bench and the 6th man.

ink
02-02-2010, 07:41 PM
My thinking is that Amir and Bosh in at the 4/5 is a much better last line of defense than Bargnani/x. I know Bargs will struggle to guard 3's, but he can't really guard 4's or 5's that well either.

Bargnani's defence is not really a problem. He has actually played some of the league's best bigs extremely well this year. That's the context in which Dirk's comments were made btw. The team is extremely happy with ABs play so I don't think those ideas of him playing the 3 would go very far.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 07:50 PM
Bargnani's defence is not really a problem. He has actually played some of the league's best bigs extremely well this year. That's the context in which Dirk's comments were made btw. The team is extremely happy with ABs play so I don't think those ideas of him playing the 3 would go very far.

word. i think his defense is underrated by other fans since it seems like they think his defense is brutal.

his help d needs to improve.

o and amir johnson would be better off at SF cause he has the quicks to stick with SFs.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 07:52 PM
Bargnani's defence is not really a problem. He has actually played some of the league's best bigs extremely well this year. That's the context in which Dirk's comments were made btw. The team is extremely happy with ABs play so I don't think those ideas of him playing the 3 would go very far.

They need to play Amir more. On offense Bargnani already plays like most SFs anyway and moving him would be an easy solution to his rebounding/boxing out issues.

I'm still looking for the exact reasons why Bargnani shows up so poorly in Net Defensive rating, especially compared to Bosh and Amir. I think some it has do with Calderon but Bargnani is slow on rotating and as mentioned he does not box out well for his size and he's the main reason the Raptors are one of the worst defensive rebound teams in the league.

Not to keeping tearing into Bargnani, understand I don't think he's a bad player, just a long way from justifiably being compared to Dirk or any super star.

ink
02-02-2010, 07:57 PM
They need to play Amir more. On offense Bargnani already plays like most SFs anyway and moving him would be an easy solution to his rebounding/boxing out issues.

Every Raptor fan likes Amir. But that doesn't mean they're going to move Bargnani to a position they already know he can't play in the NBA. Besides, we're about to have another big in Reggie Evans come available. We will probably see a variety of configurations when Evans gets back (that is, if one of Amir or Evans don't get traded).

Ragun
02-02-2010, 08:01 PM
i like the way the team is right now and so i want it to be the way it is. also amir johnson is more effective off the bench.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 08:04 PM
Every Raptor fan likes Amir. But that doesn't mean they're going to move Bargnani to a position they already know he can't play in the NBA. Besides, we're about to have another big in Reggie Evans come available. We will probably see a variety of configurations when Evans gets back (that is, if one of Amir or Evans don't get traded).

Bulls give 1st round pick, Toronto gives Amir Johnson?

Legitimate
02-02-2010, 08:05 PM
when u tryin to compare bargnani u gotta remember bargs has to share the ball turk and the best PF inthe nba(chrisbosh). we the highest scoring front court in the nba and bargs has a lot to do with that. IMO only weakness bargnani has is rebounding eventhatits still at7rpg,which is not as bad as some people try make it out to be. regaurdless what people have to sayabout bargs he still a 20 n 7 starting center in the nba, its just that he has to share the ball with another postplayer also his 1o1 defence is excellent.

Legitimate
02-02-2010, 08:09 PM
bargs has alotta value in the nba. he is livin up to his contract making 10 mill per for a 18-7 player. look at anderson varajoa haha. bargs contract looks very affordable, also bargs numbers would be way better but bosh kinda takes his shine away some what when it comes to statistics.

MiamiHeat
02-02-2010, 08:11 PM
he is an oversized SF, overpaid, soft as ****
cant rebound for ****

another version of mehmet okur

AddiX
02-02-2010, 08:12 PM
Bargs has skills, but I'll say the same thing about him that I say about Lee. Any Big man who doesnt scare people away from the paint and is a liability on defense is useless.

In todays NBA we expect them to score, thats not a big mans job. THe reason Bill Russel won so many rings was he dominated the defensive paint and snatched boards. That's the big mans main job.

That's why bum *** centers always get picked high in the draft, every coach wants a big man who can play like he's suppose to.

Legitimate
02-02-2010, 08:17 PM
he is an oversized SF, overpaid, soft as ****
cant rebound for ****

another version of mehmet okur

lol your joking right?? bargnani is waay more athletic and has a waaay better aresenal of skill set

MiamiHeat
02-02-2010, 08:25 PM
lol your joking right?? bargnani is waay more athletic and has a waaay better aresenal of skill set

not saying much.

Jamiecballer
02-02-2010, 08:33 PM
dude. galli is a SF, smaller body than dirk. there are so many more differences than similarities if you compare these 2. the only 2 similarities i can think of is that galli and dirk have great shots (2 of the best in the NBA) and that they are both from Europe.

the point that is being made is that comments made by players to the media after, before and during games mean diddly squat. players try to say nice things about each other. they are brothers. it's why employers ask for references WHO AREN'T FAMILY. they want truth not platitudes.

Jamiecballer
02-02-2010, 08:47 PM
when u tryin to compare bargnani u gotta remember bargs has to share the ball turk and the best PF inthe nba(chrisbosh). we the highest scoring front court in the nba and bargs has a lot to do with that. IMO only weakness bargnani has is rebounding eventhatits still at7rpg,which is not as bad as some people try make it out to be. regaurdless what people have to sayabout bargs he still a 20 n 7 starting center in the nba, its just that he has to share the ball with another postplayer also his 1o1 defence is excellent.

How is 7 rpg not as bad as it's made out to be?

The only way a 7 foot center who plays 30+ minutes a night could get fewer rebounds per game is if he was purposely trying to avoid them. He is an awesome talent but it is being wasted by asking him to play badly out of position.

Jonathan2323
02-02-2010, 08:51 PM
he is an oversized SF, overpaid, soft as ****
cant rebound for ****

another version of mehmet okur

x2. you left out no defense.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 08:57 PM
:laugh: heat fans.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 08:58 PM
LOL @ these Heat fans. Beasley's numbers are down across the board and the guy has less of a chance at making an ASG than Bargnani does.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 08:58 PM
o and he is making 6.5 million and he is overpayed right? :laugh: stop making fools of yourselves.

MiamiHeat
02-02-2010, 09:04 PM
LOL @ these Heat fans. Beasley's numbers are down across the board and the guy has less of a chance at making an ASG than Bargnani does.

ooo at this bulls fans always taking a shot at Beasley whenever they get the chance

and what do you mean Beasley's numbers are down across the board?

MiamiHeat
02-02-2010, 09:07 PM
o and he is making 6.5 million and he is overpayed right? :laugh: stop making fools of yourselves.

yeah then he's gonna be making
8,500,000
9,250,000
10,000,000
10,750,000
11,500,000

10mil for a C that can't rebound or play D?
no thanks.

ldc62
02-02-2010, 09:12 PM
not saying much.

Neither are u.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 09:16 PM
yeah then he's gonna be making
8,500,000
9,250,000
10,000,000
10,750,000
11,500,000

10mil for a C that can't rebound or play D?
no thanks.

:facepalm:

i dont use this a lot but you sir deserve this.

1) those are salaries for future seasons, not this season :laugh:
2) his rebounding has gotten better every year.
3) beasley is averaging only .3 boards more. i dont want to bring beasley in to this because i love his game and still think he should of been the first overall pick in last years draft.
4) your just mad cause he lit the heat up
5) stop embarrassing yourself.
6) :laugh:

Jonathan2323
02-02-2010, 09:19 PM
LOL @ these Heat fans. Beasley's numbers are down across the board and the guy has less of a chance at making an ASG than Bargnani does.

how they down across the board if he's having a better season this year.

Bargnani has has a very good offensive game but thats about it.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 09:24 PM
how they down across the board if he's having a better season this year.

Bargnani has has a very good offensive game but thats about it.

he has pretty good man to man D also. can you say the same thing about beasley?

Jonathan2323
02-02-2010, 09:39 PM
he has pretty good man to man D also. can you say the same thing about beasley?

this thread isn't Beasley v Bargnani. Bargnani has similar numbers to Beasley. Bargani has played 2 full seasons more than Beasley.

Bargnani's 2nd year in the league 10ppg and 3.7 Rebs now compare that to Beasley 1st and 2nd year(not even close).

Ragun
02-02-2010, 09:43 PM
this thread isn't Beasley v Bargnani. Bargnani has similar numbers to Beasley. Bargani has played 2 full seasons more than Beasley.

Bargnani's 2nd year in the league 10ppg and 3.7 Rebs now compare that to Beasley 1st and 2nd year(not even close).
im bringing up beasley cause you keep saying bargs had bad d. so what does that make of beasley's d?
doesnt matter. we dont know how beasley is going to turn out do we?

MiamiHeat
02-02-2010, 10:05 PM
:facepalm:

i dont use this a lot but you sir deserve this.

1) those are salaries for future seasons, not this season :laugh:
2) his rebounding has gotten better every year.
3) beasley is averaging only .3 boards more. i dont want to bring beasley in to this because i love his game and still think he should of been the first overall pick in last years draft.
4) your just mad cause he lit the heat up
5) stop embarrassing yourself.
6) :laugh:

1. that's why I said he's gonna be making...:eyebrow:
2. 6.3rpg still pretty bad for a 7'0 C.
3. yeah.. hes a 6'7-6'8 F still getting more rebounds than a 7footer
4. I didn't even watch the game...so I could care less
5. nice try at trying to "embarrass" me

:facepalm:

MiamiHeat
02-02-2010, 10:06 PM
im bringing up beasley cause you keep saying bargs had bad d. so what does that make of beasley's d?
doesnt matter. we dont know how beasley is going to turn out do we?

we do
he's going to be better than Bargnani.

Legitimate
02-02-2010, 10:15 PM
we do
he's going to be better than Bargnani.

sigh...these heat fans have nothin intelligent to say

Legitimate
02-02-2010, 10:16 PM
bargnani rebounds are low because of bosh is a dam beast

Ragun
02-02-2010, 10:26 PM
1. that's why I said he's gonna be making...:eyebrow:
2. 6.3rpg still pretty bad for a 7'0 C.
3. yeah.. hes a 6'7-6'8 F still getting more rebounds than a 7footer
4. I didn't even watch the game...so I could care less
5. nice try at trying to "embarrass" me

:facepalm:

it doesnt matter, he could end up being a an all-star for five straight years. we dont know.

yes it is. i agree.

yeah. i tried my best. :rolleyes:

FlakeyFool
02-02-2010, 10:30 PM
Its a wide known fact that the heat overrate their team.

Ragun
02-02-2010, 11:03 PM
we do
he's going to be better than Bargnani.

:laugh:



o well i guess you believe he will be better. your entitled to your opinion.

IversonIsKrazy
02-02-2010, 11:08 PM
He is a very good and underrated player imo. He has developed to a very talented center who can drop 20+ on any given night. I don't see a Dirk potential, neither did I see it when we drafted him, we have one of the best PF's 2day on our team along side him. But in his prime, i can see him getting 24ppg 8.5rpg 1.8bpg

His rebounding is the only thing that is really irratating me, when will he develop a consistent good rebounding skill. His defense is improving and getting better, im not worried about that, but man, his rebounding is awful!

IversonIsKrazy
02-02-2010, 11:12 PM
as far as the beasley VS bargnani debate, c'mon guys, we all know Bargs is and will continue to play better than Beasley.

Beasley, is the ONLY post guy they can give it to, i mean seriously, its a lot easier to score when ur on the Miami Heat, that team is awful, its Wade and ppl wearing heat jerseys that just watch them. Bargs would be easily a 21ppg scorer on Heat, Bargs has to share the ball with guys like BOSH and Hedo.

FlakeyFool
02-02-2010, 11:16 PM
bargnani is an underrated defender

Ragun
02-02-2010, 11:19 PM
bargnani is an underrated defender

didnt play like one tonight. was **** on defense but calderon was a major reason for that.

FlakeyFool
02-02-2010, 11:20 PM
didnt play like one tonight. was **** on defense but calderon was a major reason for that.

thats why we don't judge people on one game :)

RaptorizedKevin
02-02-2010, 11:22 PM
bosh grabs most of the boards, give bargs a break.

ChiSox219
02-03-2010, 02:07 PM
bargnani rebounds are low because of bosh is a dam beast


bosh grabs most of the boards, give bargs a break.

Meh, Kaman does alright and Camby leads the league in reb%


didnt play like one tonight. was **** on defense but calderon was a major reason for that.

Just got done watching the first quarter (Calderon and Bargs were not on the floor together) and here's some of my notes:

8:15 (Consecutive possessions)
-Bargs allows Hibbert to get deep postion, easy 2 points.
-Bargs gets himself out of position, tries to deny post entry by playing in front of Hibbert fails, easy pass + easy basket

6:07
-Hibbert/Granger PNR: Hibbert rolls before pick is effective, Bargnani decides to stick with Granger even though he is well covered because the pick was never really set. Granger makes pass to Hibbert Bargnani stuck in quick sand and Hibbert has clear path to bucket [Bosh does a nice job trying to help but too late]

5:39
-Murphy drives, Bosh contests well, Bargs looks to have position for the rebound but fails to box out Hibbert who comes from behind for the 2nd chance points

2:44
-B.Rush drives to the basket, beats man, Bargnani steps up but then looks like he's immobile and doesn't contest Rush until he's already gone past Andrea. When Bargs stepped up Murphy was left under the hoop by himself for the easy put back. (This was really ugly and a main reason why I think Bargs should get another look at SF, in this situation he's the last line of defense and it wasn't pretty, quicksand feet again)



That said it wasn't all bad, he caught a difficult pass, stopped his momentum and kept the ball high all in one motion, then knocked down a 10 footer over his smaller defender. On defense the one play that stood out was he finally stopped Hibbert and he did it the ideal way by keeping his feet and put his hands straight up, forcing Hibbert to miss from about 6 feet.


Marco Belinelli's offense continues to be very impressive and Bosh is an absolute beast.

JC_
02-03-2010, 02:33 PM
Meh, Kaman does alright and Camby leads the league in reb%



Just got done watching the first quarter (Calderon and Bargs were not on the floor together) and here's some of my notes:

8:15 (Consecutive possessions)
-Bargs allows Hibbert to get deep postion, easy 2 points.
-Bargs gets himself out of position, tries to deny post entry by playing in front of Hibbert fails, easy pass + easy basket

6:07
-Hibbert/Granger PNR: Hibbert rolls before pick is effective, Bargnani decides to stick with Granger even though he is well covered because the pick was never really set. Granger makes pass to Hibbert Bargnani stuck in quick sand and Hibbert has clear path to bucket [Bosh does a nice job trying to help but too late]

5:39
-Murphy drives, Bosh contests well, Bargs looks to have position for the rebound but fails to box out Hibbert who comes from behind for the 2nd chance points

2:44
-B.Rush drives to the basket, beats man, Bargnani steps up but then looks like he's immobile and doesn't contest Rush until he's already gone past Andrea. When Bargs stepped up Murphy was left under the hoop by himself for the easy put back. (This was really ugly and a main reason why I think Bargs should get another look at SF, in this situation he's the last line of defense and it wasn't pretty, quicksand feet again)



That said it wasn't all bad, he caught a difficult pass, stopped his momentum and kept the ball high all in one motion, then knocked down a 10 footer over his smaller defender. On defense the one play that stood out was he finally stopped Hibbert and he did it the ideal way by keeping his feet and put his hands straight up, forcing Hibbert to miss from about 6 feet.


Marco Belinelli's offense continues to be very impressive and Bosh is an absolute beast.

Barg's defense was horrible last night for the most part. If he and others had stepped up on defense the Raptors would have destroyed the Pacers.

Legitimate
02-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Barg's defense was horrible last night for the most part. If he and others had stepped up on defense the Raptors would have destroyed the Pacers.

no way we coulda stopped the pacers when they hittin every dam shot, *coughs* we faced a hot paces team last night:)

Chronz
02-03-2010, 03:14 PM
Can anyone please substantiate the claims made by all the Bargs apologist, all I see is a bunch of excuses regarding his defense, offensive production and rebounding. Guys its ok for him to have weaknesses, lets stop making excuses. Him losing Bosh isnt going to make him a better rebounder. Not if you know how these things (stats) work.

Bargs playing behind Bosh isnt preventing him from performing, if Dirk played alongside Bosh, hed still be Dirk.

Afridi786
02-03-2010, 03:25 PM
In terms of rebounding/defense, Bargnani wont get much better, he might put up more shots and get his ppg in the 20's, but that's his ceiling.

Jays101
02-03-2010, 03:40 PM
bargs

dominater6192
02-03-2010, 03:44 PM
bosh grabs most of the boards, give bargs a break.

Joakim Noah is second in league in rebounding but that does'nt stop rookie Taj Gibson from grabbing the same amount of rebounds as Bargnani in 10 less MPG. Stop making excuses for the guy he sucks at rebounding.

LanceUpperCut
02-03-2010, 04:46 PM
Meh, Kaman does alright and Camby leads the league in reb%



Just got done watching the first quarter (Calderon and Bargs were not on the floor together) and here's some of my notes:

8:15 (Consecutive possessions)
-Bargs allows Hibbert to get deep postion, easy 2 points.
-Bargs gets himself out of position, tries to deny post entry by playing in front of Hibbert fails, easy pass + easy basket

6:07
-Hibbert/Granger PNR: Hibbert rolls before pick is effective, Bargnani decides to stick with Granger even though he is well covered because the pick was never really set. Granger makes pass to Hibbert Bargnani stuck in quick sand and Hibbert has clear path to bucket [Bosh does a nice job trying to help but too late]

5:39
-Murphy drives, Bosh contests well, Bargs looks to have position for the rebound but fails to box out Hibbert who comes from behind for the 2nd chance points

2:44
-B.Rush drives to the basket, beats man, Bargnani steps up but then looks like he's immobile and doesn't contest Rush until he's already gone past Andrea. When Bargs stepped up Murphy was left under the hoop by himself for the easy put back. (This was really ugly and a main reason why I think Bargs should get another look at SF, in this situation he's the last line of defense and it wasn't pretty, quicksand feet again)



That said it wasn't all bad, he caught a difficult pass, stopped his momentum and kept the ball high all in one motion, then knocked down a 10 footer over his smaller defender. On defense the one play that stood out was he finally stopped Hibbert and he did it the ideal way by keeping his feet and put his hands straight up, forcing Hibbert to miss from about 6 feet.


Marco Belinelli's offense continues to be very impressive and Bosh is an absolute beast.

You have a wierd obession with Bargnani.

footballer2369
02-03-2010, 04:47 PM
LOL @ these Heat fans. Beasley's numbers are down across the board and the guy has less of a chance at making an ASG than Bargnani does.

please. stop.

talk baseball or soccer or something. don't talk heat basketball, because you're clueless.

lower usg. rate accounts for less points. he has higher o rating and better d rating, while lowering his TO%. This is the classic case of a big time scorer rounding out his defense and playing inside a role.

I assure you, by next year, he'll be widely considered the best (or 2nd best to chi fans) from the 2008 draft and he's ALREADY better than Bargnani. 18 and 8 per 36 suggests he's already near all star caliber in HIS 2ND YEAR, Vs Bargnani, the 4th year Center/SF who wasn't 1/2 the player beasley is in his 2nd year. 3 years is quite a difference, from 21 to 24 there is a ton of maturity...

As for Beasley vs. Bargnani now:
Beasley: 17.1 PER, 12.9 TRB%, 104 o rating, 107 d rating
Bargnani: 13.6 PER, 9.7 TRB%, 103 o rating, 109 d rating
Rose: 16.4 PER (laughable for an "all star"),

And just for kicks, to take the Beasley-Rose comparison further:
Beasley has the better PER, d rating, TOV % (interesting considering the fact Beasley actually has the higher USG%), TS and EFG, STL%, BLK %, (I won't mention rebs since beas is forward, just as i won't mention assts for rose).

SO....If we're measuring players based on ASG appearances, maybe that's the wrong way to go huh?? Especially since you think Rose is the bomb.

footballer2369
02-03-2010, 04:50 PM
:laugh:



o well i guess you believe he will be better. your entitled to your opinion.

:x Sir.....um.....

he already is....

somebody should make a Hitler vid dispelling all these insane thoughts about Bargnani.

johnwayne
02-03-2010, 04:53 PM
What is Andrea Bargnani league wide value

wheres his ceiling ?

next dirk, or another version of mehmet okur

if you havent see him much watch some highlights

and make educated statements

LMAO...you gotta love those raptors fans

mjt20mik
02-03-2010, 05:10 PM
:x Sir.....um.....

he already is....

somebody should make a Hitler vid dispelling all these insane thoughts about Bargnani.

YES! Cause John Hollinger's formulae are decipher who is great and who isn't.

:eyebrow:

thescore53
02-03-2010, 05:15 PM
Bosh is a beassssssssssssssssst
just wanted to let that out

footballer2369
02-03-2010, 05:19 PM
YES! Cause John Hollinger's formulae are decipher who is great and who isn't.

:eyebrow:

did john hollinger create o rating, d rating, and per minute stats???

did he make beasley better at every statistical category outside of 3pt shooting, ft shooting and blocked shots??

beasley is just better. bargs is a novelty who will probably remain one of the least efficient centers and one of the poorest rebounders. He may become a competent defender, but his team will always be at a huge disadvantage on the glass, which is no small predicament. Beasley on the other hand has the tools to round into as good a shooter and already is a better scorer and rebounder, while also being a solid defender with the tools to be much better.

so, really don't see any rational onlooker with any kind of statistical knowledge picking bargnani over beasley.

thescore53
02-03-2010, 05:27 PM
the thing is bargnani creates alot more mismatches than beasley
hes the quickest 7 footer in the league
he will never be on the same level as dirk, its impossible to emulate dirks game he shoots the ball with such ease

Jamiecballer
02-03-2010, 05:29 PM
the thing is bargnani creates alot more mismatches than beasley
hes the quickest 7 footer in the league
he will never be on the same level as dirk, its impossible to emulate dirks game he shoots the ball with such ease

mismatches are useless if you don't exploit them though. of course you are right but i'm not sure what you are getting at by saying this....

Jonathan2323
02-03-2010, 05:32 PM
delete post

thescore53
02-03-2010, 05:37 PM
mismatches are useless if you don't exploit them though. of course you are right but i'm not sure what you are getting at by saying this....



dont you watch raptors games of course he exploits them when he has a guy not as quick as him he takes them to the baseline and drives right by them and dunks. teams started putting sf on him like stephen jackson and lebron
and he posts them up and shoot right over him.

i respect him more this season because hes actually trying to post on smaller guys

Unruly Fan
02-03-2010, 05:41 PM
What is Andrea Bargnani league wide value

wheres his ceiling ?

next dirk, or another version of mehmet okur

if you havent see him much watch some highlights

and make educated statements


LMAO...you gotta love those raptors fansLMAO...you gotta love non-raptor fans

footballer2369
02-03-2010, 05:45 PM
the thing is bargnani creates alot more mismatches than beasley
hes the quickest 7 footer in the league
he will never be on the same level as dirk, its impossible to emulate dirks game he shoots the ball with such ease

To start, not really...Beasley is too quick for most PFs. However, the point of creating mismatches is to create easier opportunities and to add production.

Bargnani has the lower FG% (=easier opportunities rendered useless), and produces less than beasley. before you say, well it helps out the rest of his team, he has a lower ast% and a higher TOV%, so that's not true either...

so it's cool and all, but it's largely irrelevant.

Unruly Fan
02-03-2010, 05:46 PM
dont you watch raptors games of course he exploits them when he has a guy not as quick as him he takes them to the baseline and drives right by them and dunks. teams started putting sf on him like stephen jackson and lebron
and he posts them up and shoot right over him.

i respect him more this season because hes actually trying to post on smaller guysExplanations like these are futile to those who don't care anyway. All I know is Bargs has a few more things to prove until people do start caring. Hell its hard enough for Bosh as it is.

ChiSox219
02-03-2010, 05:56 PM
.

lower usg. rate accounts for less points. he has higher o rating and better d rating, while lowering his TO%. This is the classic case of a big time scorer rounding out his defense and playing inside a role.

That's fine and dandy. His net O Rating has marginally improved (.19 to .45) and net D Rating is down from last year (1.48 to 1.18). His TS%, eFG%, points per minute are all down. With a decrease in usage those three stats should all go up or at least stay the same.

I don't have a deep understanding of how USG% impacts REB% but my guess is, if their is a correlation, it's that as USG% goes down REB% should go up. You can look at Marcus Camby, he leads the league in Reb% and his USG% is near his career low. Beasley's rebound % and rebounds per minute are both down.

With his Net D rating and Reb% both being worse, I don't consider that a case of "a big time scorer rounding out his defense and playing inside a role."



I assure you, by next year, he'll be widely considered the best (or 2nd best to chi fans) from the 2008 draft and he's ALREADY better than Bargnani. 18 and 8 per 36 suggests he's already near all star caliber in HIS 2ND YEAR, Vs Bargnani, the 4th year Center/SF who wasn't 1/2 the player beasley is in his 2nd year. 3 years is quite a difference, from 21 to 24 there is a ton of maturity...

Brook Lopez.



As for Beasley vs. Bargnani now:
Beasley: 17.1 PER, 12.9 TRB%, 104 o rating, 107 d rating
Bargnani: 13.6 PER, 9.7 TRB%, 103 o rating, 109 d rating
Rose: 16.4 PER (laughable for an "all star"),

Kevin Love has 23.1 PER this year after going for an 18.1 PER last season with REB% of 21.0 and 21.6 in his two seasons. All-star? Best from the 08 class?

Let's compare his career to Beasley's:


Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS
1 Michael Beasley 2009 2010 127 3456 17.1 .525 .485 6.6 19.3 12.9 7.6 1.3 1.4 9.8 26.6 104 107 2.7 3.9 6.6
2 Kevin Love 2009 2010 110 2925 19.8 .544 .469 15.4 27.3 21.2 9.0 1.1 1.6 12.2 21.3 114 108 5.8 2.8 8.6


Love has CLEAR advantages in TS%, PER, OREB%, DREB%, REB%, AST%, ORTG and incredibly he has more Win Shares despite playing less minutes.

Beasley has a clear advantage in eFG% and TOV%

Beasley also has a much lower USG% and plays with Wade, I'd expect Beas to be the more efficient player.



And just for kicks, to take the Beasley-Rose comparison further:
Beasley has the better PER, d rating, TOV % (interesting considering the fact Beasley actually has the higher USG%), TS and EFG, STL%, BLK %, (I won't mention rebs since beas is forward, just as i won't mention assts for rose). SO....If we're measuring players based on ASG appearances, maybe that's the wrong way to go huh?? Especially since you think Rose is the bomb.


You can compare Rose all you want, I don't know why you brought him into this thread. Just know that while Rose is 11th in USG% and the #1 option on his team, Beasley is 56th with DWade to lean on.

ChiSox219
02-03-2010, 06:00 PM
To start, not really...Beasley is too quick for most PFs. However, the point of creating mismatches is to create easier opportunities and to add production.

Bargnani has the lower FG% (=easier opportunities rendered useless), and produces less than beasley. before you say, well it helps out the rest of his team, he has a lower ast% and a higher TOV%, so that's not true either...

so it's cool and all, but it's largely irrelevant.

It's ironic that you throw all these advanced stats to back your case and then use FG%.

Bargnani is the much more efficient scorer with a better TS% and eFG%, it's really not that close.

TS%/eFG%
Andrea Bargnani: .565/.535
Michael Beasley .521/.479

thescore53
02-03-2010, 06:04 PM
why do you have a matt barnes sig u lost a bet or something

ChiSox219
02-03-2010, 06:06 PM
You have a wierd obession with Bargnani.

He's an interesting player with a loyal following on PSD. He was a #1 pick which makes his career even more fascinating to follow because of the hype/pressure. Oh and the Bulls had the #2, so sometimes I ponder, what if?

He's also not a good defender and people keep telling me to watch him so I go and watch him and people still don't believe me, so now I write down what I see so I can at least articulate my reasons for why Bargs isn't a good defender.

ChiSox219
02-03-2010, 06:08 PM
why do you have a matt barnes sig u lost a bet or something

No, Matt Barnes is an extremely hard worker and maximizes his talent. He's always been fun to watch and I would love to have him off the Bulls bench.

MiamiHeat
02-03-2010, 06:34 PM
as far as the beasley VS bargnani debate, c'mon guys, we all know Bargs is and will continue to play better than Beasley.

Beasley, is the ONLY post guy they can give it to, i mean seriously, its a lot easier to score when ur on the Miami Heat, that team is awful, its Wade and ppl wearing heat jerseys that just watch them. Bargs would be easily a 21ppg scorer on Heat, Bargs has to share the ball with guys like BOSH and Hedo.

Beasley has to share the ball with Wade, who is much better than both of those guys. And Spo is an idiot coach.



Its a wide known fact that the heat overrate their team.


:laugh:
this coming from a RAPTORS fan...

RAPTORS WIN IN 4!!! :laugh2:

mjt20mik
02-03-2010, 06:40 PM
It's ironic that you throw all these advanced stats to back your case and then use FG%.

Bargnani is the much more efficient scorer with a better TS% and eFG%, it's really not that close.

TS%/eFG%
Andrea Bargnani: .565/.535
Michael Beasley .521/.479

Lol. You just owned the poster with his own pointless percentages.

:D:clap:

And regarding the whole Bargnani / Beasley argument...

What people aren't understanding is that Toronto's best two players play at the same position. Beasley and Wade play at two very different positions. I still don't know how you compare a C to a SF, so I have no clue why Beasley was even brought up into this conversation.

footballer2369
02-03-2010, 06:44 PM
.

That's fine and dandy. His net O Rating has marginally improved (.19 to .45) and net D Rating is down from last year (1.48 to 1.18). His TS%, eFG%, points per minute are all down. With a decrease in usage those three stats should all go up or at least stay the same.

I don't have a deep understanding of how USG% impacts REB% but my guess is, if their is a correlation, it's that as USG% goes down REB% should go up. You can look at Marcus Camby, he leads the league in Reb% and his USG% is near his career low. Beasley's rebound % and rebounds per minute are both down.

With his Net D rating and Reb% both being worse, I don't consider that a case of "a big time scorer rounding out his defense and playing inside a role."


usg could have an effect on oreb% but could not on dreb, which if i'm not mistaken is the case with beasley.

beasley shows the ability to rebound when he wants to. whether or not he will ever have to drive and desire to be a big time rebounder, i can't guarantee. however, he's still a much better rebounder than bargnani, which was my point.

whether or not stats display it, the improvements in his game are evident. he's tightened up his body to have a true NBA body. he's taking it strong to the rim and dunking aggressively. he's skying for rebounds and catching alley oops and getting tip slams. he's having extremely impressive defensive sequences.

his defense, especially his perimeter defense and defensive intensity, are largely improved. with his strength and athleticism increasing, his post defense is improving, although it (and team defense) is still a project far away from absolution. (although he's still a better defender than rose and probably bargs)

the signs are all there. the breakout is coming. and while we wait, he's still better than bargnani.



Brook Lopez.

we shall see.


Kevin Love has 23.1 PER this year after going for an 18.1 PER last season with REB% of 21.0 and 21.6 in his two seasons. All-star? Best from the 08 class?

Let's compare his career to Beasley's:


Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS
1 Michael Beasley 2009 2010 127 3456 17.1 .525 .485 6.6 19.3 12.9 7.6 1.3 1.4 9.8 26.6 104 107 2.7 3.9 6.6
2 Kevin Love 2009 2010 110 2925 19.8 .544 .469 15.4 27.3 21.2 9.0 1.1 1.6 12.2 21.3 114 108 5.8 2.8 8.6


Love has CLEAR advantages in TS%, PER, OREB%, DREB%, REB%, AST%, ORTG and incredibly he has more Win Shares despite playing less minutes.

Beasley has a clear advantage in eFG% and TOV%

Beasley also has a much lower USG% and plays with Wade, I'd expect Beas to be the more efficient player.

again you bring up playing with wade. he plays with al jefferson, he's not a jumpshooter (he takes set shots) and he doesn't have to create. he plays on the low block.

you're not going to hear any argument for me on love's efficiency. he rebounds and plays very efficient offense.

he'll never avg 20 ppg, or be a superstar, but he'll be among the league's best rebounders for many many years and among the best fg and ts%'s.

but it's completely different. we were comparing a high post/perimeter PF to a 3pt shooting center and now you're trying to bring up a rebounder and set shooter. not really a remotely fair comparison.



You can compare Rose all you want, I don't know why you brought him into this thread. Just know that while Rose is 11th in USG% and the #1 option on his team, Beasley is 56th with DWade to lean on.

beasley doesn't lean on wade. they actually don't co exist well. around 1/3 of beasley's minutes come with wade on the bench. he creates for himself, he's not a spot up shooter who would gain from wade's drive and kicks. rose being a #1 option is why beasley isn't killing him in ppg as well.


It's ironic that you throw all these advanced stats to back your case and then use FG%.

Bargnani is the much more efficient scorer with a better TS% and eFG%, it's really not that close.

TS%/eFG%
Andrea Bargnani: .565/.535
Michael Beasley .521/.479

what's ironic is that you didn't understand the point of my post. He has mismatches, yet it takes him more shots to get less points.

this is not about ability, this is about the maximization of "mismatches".

footballer2369
02-03-2010, 06:45 PM
Lol. You just owned the poster with his own pointless percentages.

:D:clap:

And regarding the whole Bargnani / Beasley argument...

What people aren't understanding is that Toronto's best two players play at the same position. Beasley and Wade play at two very different positions. I still don't know how you compare a C to a SF, so I have no clue why Beasley was even brought up into this conversation.

because beasley is a PF and bargs should be a PF...

Chronz
02-03-2010, 07:16 PM
No, Matt Barnes is an extremely hard worker and maximizes his talent. He's always been fun to watch and I would love to have him off the Bulls bench.

Yea you shouldve seen the energy he played with when he was with us, back when he was playing for his livelihood on 10 day contracts. Good to see hes never stopped whats made him successful, another selfmade NBA player.

Chronz
02-03-2010, 07:21 PM
YES! Cause John Hollinger's formulae are decipher who is great and who isn't.

:eyebrow:

Am I missing something, who mentioned Hollinger in this thread?


please. stop.

talk baseball or soccer or something. don't talk heat basketball, because you're clueless.


First off I applaud you for not resorting to flawed/meaningless per game averages. But have alittle respect, CS aint the kind of guy to speak on matters hes clueless about.

Gibby23
02-03-2010, 07:25 PM
Yea you shouldve seen the energy he played with when he was with us, back when he was playing for his livelihood on 10 day contracts. Good to see hes never stopped whats made him successful, another selfmade NBA player.

I played against him in highschool. He was a star in Sacramento when he was in highschool. They thought he was the next Magic or something doing specials on the local news on how he is a 6'9'' point guard. He was ok at UCLA and Im glad he found his role because he bought into the hype when he was younger. I think UCLA humbled him and he realized he needs to change how he plays because he isn't the best player on the floor.

ChiSox219
02-03-2010, 07:32 PM
usg could have an effect on oreb% but could not on dreb, which if i'm not mistaken is the case with beasley.

Your quote was "This is the classic case of a big time scorer rounding out his defense and playing inside a role." Beasley's DREB% is down this year.



beasley shows the ability to rebound when he wants to. whether or not he will ever have to drive and desire to be a big time rebounder, i can't guarantee. however, he's still a much better rebounder than bargnani, which was my point.

I didn't say or argue Bargnani was a better rebounder.



whether or not stats display it, the improvements in his game are evident. he's tightened up his body to have a true NBA body. he's taking it strong to the rim and dunking aggressively. he's skying for rebounds and catching alley oops and getting tip slams. he's having extremely impressive defensive sequences.

his defense, especially his perimeter defense and defensive intensity, are largely improved. with his strength and athleticism increasing, his post defense is improving, although it (and team defense) is still a project far away from absolution. (although he's still a better defender than rose and probably bargs)

Whether or not stats display it, the improvements in [Bargnani's, Rose's, Love's, etc] game are evident.

This is the NBA, high draft picks improve.



again you bring up playing with wade. he plays with al jefferson, he's not a jumpshooter (he takes set shots) and he doesn't have to create. he plays on the low block.

Do you think Al Jefferson and Wade are comparable? I don't. One is a super star top 5 player, the other is a good PF playing C, recovering from a torn ACL.

Love makes more 3 pointers than Beasley and at a better rate (.378 to .270), might be more of "set shooter" but his outside game shouldn't be slept on. Love's and Beasley's assisted makes % are very similar, hard to call one a set shooter and the other a creator. I haven't watched the Timberwolves much so I can't speak anymore to exact nature of Love's game.



you're not going to hear any argument for me on love's efficiency. he rebounds and plays very efficient offense.

he'll never avg 20 ppg, or be a superstar, but he'll be among the league's best rebounders for many many years and among the best fg and ts%'s.

but it's completely different. we were comparing a high post/perimeter PF to a 3pt shooting center and now you're trying to bring up a rebounder and set shooter. not really a remotely fair comparison.

The quote was "18 and 8 per 36 suggests he's [Beasley] already near all star caliber in HIS 2ND YEAR

Kevin Love's per 36 in his 2nd year: 18.2 PPG and 14.1 RPG



beasley doesn't lean on wade. they actually don't co exist well. around 1/3 of beasley's minutes come with wade on the bench. he creates for himself, he's not a spot up shooter who would gain from wade's drive and kicks. rose being a #1 option is why beasley isn't killing him in ppg as well.

Still, 70% of Beasley's minutes come with Wade on the court. Wade is a great passer, defender, and prolific scorer, if Beasley can't take advantage of playing with Wade, it's his problem.

As for Rose vs Beasley, Beas' TS%/eFG%/Points per minute are all close to Rose, if you think Beasley will maintain his efficiency at a higher rate than he probably could outscore Rose if he was a #1 option. I think if his usage shot up to Rose's level (say Wade gets hurt) his efficiency will go down.



what's ironic is that you didn't understand the point of my post. He has mismatches, yet it takes him more shots to get less points.

this is not about ability, this is about the maximization of "mismatches".

You are wrong, Bargnani doesn't take more shots to get less points. He has taken more shots this year, that is true, but he has scored more points per shot than Beasley.

Facts:

Bargnani has taken 667 FGs and scored 823 points
Beasley has taken 637 FGs and scored 736 points.

30 less shots, 87 less points for Beasley. You think Beasley can have a two game stretch and score 44 points on 15 shots per game? Because then he would be better at points per shot.

Jays101
02-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Ive been reading through this thread, and being a raptors fan i am also a huge fan of bargnani. That being said, alot of the criticism that has been directed towards him is both valid and at the same insensitive to how his game has developed. True bargnani is not a great rebounder, its a facet of his game that needs to be worked on and bargnani himself has acknowledged this many times; however he has made strides this season including a game where he pulled down 17 boards (cant remember against who). Quite often bargnani boxes out well and allows chris to get an easy rebound, and other times hes way out of position and gets caught. In regards to his defense, it is much better than many people give him credit for(albeit one of his poorest performences was yesterday); bargs is actually a very competent 1 on 1 defender in the post; and i would even say an above average defender on the perimeter against C/PFs who prefer that style. His team defence is also pretty decent however i still acknowledge theres alot of room to grow.
For all those who point out that bargs is in his 4th year and compared to beasly or whomever... blah blah blah. It is easy to forget that the raptors really hampered his development in years 1 and 2 of his career, especially his sophmore season. Bosh was blocking his natural position and hence they flipped him between SF and C, and his role was not clearly defined and hence could not really work on his game and what aspects to work on. His role finally became clear after sam mitchell was fired and his stats since then have been stellar, and hes continuing to get better and better. I dont really like comparisons, but i do think bargnani can become and impact player along the nowitzki mould.

Kakaroach
02-03-2010, 10:08 PM
I'd say high, he is still relatively young and has shown signs of being All-Star caliber the past 2 seasons.

Ragun
02-04-2010, 12:25 AM
im officially dropping out of this. people are using stats that ive never heard of before.

whose team has a better record? 2nd best player on the 5th best team in the east, there.

beasley is the 2nd best on the 7th best team in the east.

o and bargs owned lopez tonight.

bargs: 20 points, 5 boards, 4 blocks, +19

lopez: 12 points, 3 boards, 0 blocks, -9

bargnani owned him in the firs meeting too.

footballer2369
02-04-2010, 02:40 PM
im officially dropping out of this. people are using stats that ive never heard of before.

whose team has a better record? 2nd best player on the 5th best team in the east, there.

beasley is the 2nd best on the 7th best team in the east.

o and bargs owned lopez tonight.

bargs: 20 points, 5 boards, 4 blocks, +19

lopez: 12 points, 3 boards, 0 blocks, -9

bargnani owned him in the firs meeting too.

The raptors have a better record for a short stretch mid season in one year and that makes Bargs better? I know that was a joke.

The Heat are and will be the better team.

As for the other argument, Beasley is better than Bargnani. That was my point. You can continue to pick apart smaller subjects, but Beasley is better. No question. The better scorer, rebounder and athlete with the much higher ceiling. You can just admit you were letting your Bulls fandom and passion steer your guidence on your original comment and we can both drop it.

As for the Love argument, you're 100% right. Love is statistically playing better ball than Beasley. He's on a much worse team, which effects it, BUT I won't argue, Love deserves some props.

The difference between Love and Beasley though, to me, is a guy with limited upside vs a guy with no ceiling. Love definitely is the more efficient player at this point though and should always be the better rebounder and better as a role player, no arguments here.

Although you are wrong about 3 point shooting as Beasley has shot more and made more in his career(33-81, 21-75 .346 career), but Love has been very good from there thus far this year (2-19, 17-45, .298 career). It should also be noted that Love has had some injuries, and the stats I'm showing are in pretty limited time.

mikantsass
02-04-2010, 02:46 PM
Bargnani is a 7 foot shooting guard.

Bob_at_york
02-04-2010, 02:46 PM
The raptors have a better record for a short stretch mid season in one year and that makes Bargs better? I know that was a joke.

The Heat are and will be the better team.
Pretty confident words right there. We will see. That gives me a great idea!

masalex1205
02-04-2010, 02:51 PM
There must be something in the water in Canada because Raps fans are delusional

ChiSox219
02-04-2010, 03:04 PM
The raptors have a better record for a short stretch mid season in one year and that makes Bargs better? I know that was a joke.

The Heat are and will be the better team.

As for the other argument, Beasley is better than Bargnani. That was my point. You can continue to pick apart smaller subjects, but Beasley is better. No question. The better scorer, rebounder and athlete with the much higher ceiling. You can just admit you were letting your Bulls fandom and passion steer your guidence on your original comment and we can both drop it.

As for the Love argument, you're 100% right. Love is statistically playing better ball than Beasley. He's on a much worse team, which effects it, BUT I won't argue, Love deserves some props.

The difference between Love and Beasley though, to me, is a guy with limited upside vs a guy with no ceiling. Love definitely is the more efficient player at this point though and should always be the better rebounder and better as a role player, no arguments here.

Although you are wrong about 3 point shooting as Beasley has shot more and made more in his career(33-81, 21-75 .346 career), but Love has been very good from there thus far this year (2-19, 17-45, .298 career). It should also be noted that Love has had some injuries, and the stats I'm showing are in pretty limited time.

Would you care to elaborate? I never mentioned the Bulls or Rose until you brought him into the discussion. Why would I as a Bulls fan be biased towards Bargnani over Beasley? Both team play in the Eastern conference but aren't in the central divison. The Bulls passed on Beasley and we our happy with the decision. I'm sure the Heat are kicking themselves for taking Beasley over Lopez, well Heat fans aren't but the team sure is.

Ragun
02-04-2010, 04:42 PM
The raptors have a better record for a short stretch mid season in one year and that makes Bargs better? I know that was a joke.

The Heat are and will be the better team.

As for the other argument, Beasley is better than Bargnani. That was my point. You can continue to pick apart smaller subjects, but Beasley is better. No question. The better scorer, rebounder and athlete with the much higher ceiling. You can just admit you were letting your Bulls fandom and passion steer your guidence on your original comment and we can both drop it.

As for the Love argument, you're 100% right. Love is statistically playing better ball than Beasley. He's on a much worse team, which effects it, BUT I won't argue, Love deserves some props.

The difference between Love and Beasley though, to me, is a guy with limited upside vs a guy with no ceiling. Love definitely is the more efficient player at this point though and should always be the better rebounder and better as a role player, no arguments here.

Although you are wrong about 3 point shooting as Beasley has shot more and made more in his career(33-81, 21-75 .346 career), but Love has been very good from there thus far this year (2-19, 17-45, .298 career). It should also be noted that Love has had some injuries, and the stats I'm showing are in pretty limited time.
:laugh:

you should be a comedian!