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View Full Version : Jerry West, "There are a lot of lousy players in the league today"



JordansBulls
02-02-2010, 09:51 AM
What are your thoughts on this. He said this on NBA TV



He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.

"When I played, you couldn't palm the ball, and walk all over the court"

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

"It's Entertainment these days, I understand"

johnwayne
02-02-2010, 10:10 AM
i think he's sour about kobe breaking his record lmao....but anyway im pretty sure it's the other way around....alot of the players from back then could not play in the league today...."walk all over the court" wtf is he talkin about? a travel is a travel and if a player didnt travel then he didnt travel...the reason they play like that is because thats how they learned and were taught to play growing up if every player in the nba grew up playing the old-fashioned way then they would have mastered "those" skills and would be running alll over the old guys.....i dont see anybody averaging 50 points a game nowdays and pulling 30-40 rebounds...A VERY SELECT FEW FROM BEFORE 1970 COULD PLAY IN THE LEAGUE TODAY....somebody tell west to write that shitt in his diary

BoognishMN
02-02-2010, 10:14 AM
I don't want to sound like the "get off my lawn guy", but I completely agree with West. I can't stand watching guys carry the ball and travel and never get whistled. I think the point your missing John Wayne is the actual play is worse, but the players are better.

Knowledge
02-02-2010, 10:41 AM
Its give and take, in today's game the athletes are faster, bigger, and stronger so Jerry would have had a more difficult time playing in the league today. I mean if you took a very good, but not great player like Iggy and put him in back in Jerry's day, he would be one of the more physically dominant guys in the game. He isnt that in todays league though.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 10:42 AM
A lot of the players back in Jerry's days were "lousy" funny how he would say that about the league today.

BALLER71
02-02-2010, 10:45 AM
i think he's sour about kobe breaking his record lmao....but anyway im pretty sure it's the other way around....alot of the players from back then could not play in the league today...."walk all over the court" wtf is he talkin about? a travel is a travel and if a player didnt travel then he didnt travel...the reason they play like that is because thats how they learned and were taught to play growing up if every player in the nba grew up playing the old-fashioned way then they would have mastered "those" skills and would be running alll over the old guys.....i dont see anybody averaging 50 points a game nowdays and pulling 30-40 rebounds...A VERY SELECT FEW FROM BEFORE 1970 COULD PLAY IN THE LEAGUE TODAY....somebody tell west to write that shitt in his diary

I agree 100 %

SirCalvin81
02-02-2010, 10:46 AM
hes just mad there making way more money than he did

bahama0811
02-02-2010, 10:46 AM
If he's watched Anthony Carter than I see where he would get that from...

Pierzynski4Prez
02-02-2010, 11:01 AM
Babe Ruth couldn't make MLB in today's world. What's your point? Comparing players of the 60s and players of today is stupid, in all sports. If Kobe grew up in the 60s, he wouldn't have the training, coaching, equipment, etc to be as dominant as if he simply traveled through time to play in the 60s.

He is simply talking about how rules are bent in today's world to make the game more entertaining, seeing as it is purely a business now, and he understands it.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 11:04 AM
.A VERY SELECT FEW FROM BEFORE 1970 COULD PLAY IN THE LEAGUE TODAY....somebody tell west to write that shitt in his diary

Its ahrd to compare one generation to another, but I think this assessment is harsh. I agree that many players from the league's first couple of seasons and the pre-shot clock era, even in their prime, would have a hard time playing in today's league because the game was still evolving. But that said, there are a lot of players today that couldn't keep up back in the 60's or 70's.

As for averaging 50 points a game and grabbing 20 boards, I think Wilt Chamberlain, in his prime, playing today would be able to post numbers that are head-and-shoulders above everybody else in the league. In the 90's many coaches slowed the game down, used the full 24 to get a solid shot and put on the full court press to slow down the offences. Riley did it, Jackson did it, and Fratello and Wilkens also had great success turning lottery teams into playoff teams with this style. It keeps the point differential from getting out of hand and teams like the Knicks, Bulls and Heat all did well by it. So now there are fewer possessions. But Wilt was an amazing player, he played 48 minutes a game, and played in an era where the pace was quicker, as soon as he got in the post the ball was dropped into him and he put it in the hoop and they were back on defence, and even at this quick pace he played 48 minutes a game.

One of the reasons players today can't score 50 a game is because they can't play much past 38 minutes without getting exhausted and/or getting into foul trouble. Chamberlain could easily come into this game today and post 40+ a game is the offence was run through him as it was when he played for Philly, and he'd get in the high teens for rebounds too. Kobe got 80+ one game, and averaged 35+ one season, and if Kobe can post numbers like that, I'm sure considering his FG% Chamberlain could do the same today.

Yes, there are players from the 60's who couldn't cut it today, but there are players from today who would have been cut from most it not all rosters in the late 80's-mid 90's, and I'm sure a more than a few guys would fail to make some rosters in the 60's as well (consider that there were fewer teams then.

Today's game is different than the games of yester-year. LBJ would be averaging a tripple double if he played in the 70's, or even the 80's for that matter, and Oscar Robertson wouldn't have been able to get the rebounds he got in today's game, but the top tier players of the 60's would be able to play at an all-star level in today's game if they were in their prime now. And if you don't believe me just look at what Kareem did. He was a dominat player in the late 60's and early 70's and even as his game decline with age he was still an all-star at the age of 40 when he was playing in a league that was filled with guys like Jordan, Magic, Worthy, Pippen, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Charles Barkely and many others. If a guy who was an all-star in the early 70's can still bring an all-star level play at the age of 40 admist what was likely the greatest generation of basketball players yet, then I'm sure his fellow all-stars from that era could have competed today as well as they did in the past.

Bottom line is this: West is right. Look at the centers playing today vs. the centers from the late 80's-mid 90's. That position is so weak, and none of the centers from today could have competed with Chamberlain and Russell. There are many players in the league today that wouldn't have been able to get a job in the league 15 years ago with their current game.

BoognishMN
02-02-2010, 11:20 AM
Babe Ruth couldn't make MLB in today's world. What's your point? Comparing players of the 60s and players of today is stupid, in all sports. If Kobe grew up in the 60s, he wouldn't have the training, coaching, equipment, etc to be as dominant as if he simply traveled through time to play in the 60s.

He is simply talking about how rules are bent in today's world to make the game more entertaining, seeing as it is purely a business now, and he understands it.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. You cannot tell me that Superstars don't get phantom calls, or get away with carries or an extra step.

BostonWeedz
02-02-2010, 11:21 AM
Babe Ruth couldn't make MLB in today's world.


I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth could make the mlb today....

BoognishMN
02-02-2010, 11:31 AM
i think YOU are the one missing the point..read the title einstein.."LOUSY "PLAYERS"....

I can't imagine that West believes that athletically past generations of players were superior to the modern NBA, I think the point he was making is the fundamentally there are players who are not as strong I.E. Jump shot, defense, etc.

Pierzynski4Prez
02-02-2010, 11:33 AM
I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth could make the mlb today....

If he grew up in today's world, then yes probably. But if he were somehow travel through time, I doubt he could make it. He was used to swinging at 60-80 mph pitches, not 90+ fastballs, curveballs, sliders, etc.

Think David Wells as a hitter x 1,000,000 also.

BoognishMN
02-02-2010, 11:34 AM
I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth could make the mlb today....

I don' think so when he was playing, players were smaller, less athletic, there were no african americans, latinos, or asian players, pitching was treated completely different. I guess I wouldn't say he wouldn't make it, but it wouldn't suprise me.

johnwayne
02-02-2010, 11:37 AM
i think YOU are the one missing the point..read the title einstein.."LOUSY "PLAYERS"....

I can't imagine that West believes that athletically past generations of players were superior to the modern NBA, I think the point he was making is the fundamentally there are players who are not as strong I.E. Jump shot, defense, etc.

and he's out of his mind...especially defense....if you let some of todays players play defense like they did back then, with all the uncalled fouls and roughing, the now-a-day players would take up the entire 1st team all-defensive.........kobe...g wallace.....big ben....d howard....bron...wade..battier...artest...hinrich. ..just to name a few...todays players are miles ahead of the players in west's day

oogaboogaman
02-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Well they are getting paid significantly higher then in his day, so the players must be significantly better then! right??? LMAO

king4day
02-02-2010, 11:40 AM
i think he's sour about kobe breaking his record lmao....but anyway im pretty sure it's the other way around....alot of the players from back then could not play in the league today...."walk all over the court" wtf is he talkin about? a travel is a travel and if a player didnt travel then he didnt travel...the reason they play like that is because thats how they learned and were taught to play growing up if every player in the nba grew up playing the old-fashioned way then they would have mastered "those" skills and would be running alll over the old guys.....i dont see anybody averaging 50 points a game nowdays and pulling 30-40 rebounds...A VERY SELECT FEW FROM BEFORE 1970 COULD PLAY IN THE LEAGUE TODAY....somebody tell west to write that shitt in his diary

Great post.

West just sounds angry at the world.

uknowmyname
02-02-2010, 11:43 AM
West is off his rocker with those comments. Players are able to get away with more these days but I think MAYBE 10% of the players from the 50's-60's era could play in today's game. Have you ever watched games from the 50-70's? The players are so gumpy, they played standing straight up. I watched the Lakers/Knicks finals game the other day and just laughed my ***** off. Wilt or West would not be dominant in today's game. In fact the only player from that game I thought would be able to play today would be Walt Frazier. Hell, I could have gotten a roster spot back in the day.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 11:46 AM
Its ahrd to compare one generation to another, but I think this assessment is harsh. I agree that many players from the league's first couple of seasons and the pre-shot clock era, even in their prime, would have a hard time playing in today's league because the game was still evolving. But that said, there are a lot of players today that couldn't keep up back in the 60's or 70's.

As for averaging 50 points a game and grabbing 20 boards, I think Wilt Chamberlain, in his prime, playing today would be able to post numbers that are head-and-shoulders above everybody else in the league. In the 90's many coaches slowed the game down, used the full 24 to get a solid shot and put on the full court press to slow down the offences. Riley did it, Jackson did it, and Fratello and Wilkens also had great success turning lottery teams into playoff teams with this style. It keeps the point differential from getting out of hand and teams like the Knicks, Bulls and Heat all did well by it. So now there are fewer possessions. But Wilt was an amazing player, he played 48 minutes a game, and played in an era where the pace was quicker, as soon as he got in the post the ball was dropped into him and he put it in the hoop and they were back on defence, and even at this quick pace he played 48 minutes a game.

One of the reasons players today can't score 50 a game is because they can't play much past 38 minutes without getting exhausted and/or getting into foul trouble. Chamberlain could easily come into this game today and post 40+ a game is the offence was run through him as it was when he played for Philly, and he'd get in the high teens for rebounds too. Kobe got 80+ one game, and averaged 35+ one season, and if Kobe can post numbers like that, I'm sure considering his FG% Chamberlain could do the same today.

Yes, there are players from the 60's who couldn't cut it today, but there are players from today who would have been cut from most it not all rosters in the late 80's-mid 90's, and I'm sure a more than a few guys would fail to make some rosters in the 60's as well (consider that there were fewer teams then.

Today's game is different than the games of yester-year. LBJ would be averaging a tripple double if he played in the 70's, or even the 80's for that matter, and Oscar Robertson wouldn't have been able to get the rebounds he got in today's game, but the top tier players of the 60's would be able to play at an all-star level in today's game if they were in their prime now. And if you don't believe me just look at what Kareem did. He was a dominat player in the late 60's and early 70's and even as his game decline with age he was still an all-star at the age of 40 when he was playing in a league that was filled with guys like Jordan, Magic, Worthy, Pippen, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Charles Barkely and many others. If a guy who was an all-star in the early 70's can still bring an all-star level play at the age of 40 admist what was likely the greatest generation of basketball players yet, then I'm sure his fellow all-stars from that era could have competed today as well as they did in the past.

Bottom line is this: West is right. Look at the centers playing today vs. the centers from the late 80's-mid 90's. That position is so weak, and none of the centers from today could have competed with Chamberlain and Russell. There are many players in the league today that wouldn't have been able to get a job in the league 15 years ago with their current game.

You've officially lost your mind boy, maybe Chamberlain, but Russel would get eaten in today's game, and he'd probably slide down to PF.

td0tsfinest
02-02-2010, 11:57 AM
Man Jerry West just sounds like any old man. "Back in my Old Day"

This is your old day. In every sport rules and regulations have changed. Methods used by athletes have changed. You can't expect the same the game to stay the same as it was 30 year ago. Heck the game is different compared to 10 years ago.

Double_R
02-02-2010, 12:06 PM
The players sucked back then and a lot of them suck now, that being said, it is impossible to compare ERAs... I do agree with him about the fact that the rules are garbage these days, Stars gets away with 3 steps and everybody carries when they dribble. Today's game is more about money than it was back then. The rules now a days vary from team to team and player to player, which I think is absolute bs, either it's a foul for everyone or not a foul for everyone Stern Sucks

HoopsDrive
02-02-2010, 12:07 PM
He's right about the rules, phantom calls, superstar favoritism, the countless uncalled walks that plague the NBA today are just some of the examples of how the rules are less bent and more geared towards the entertainment side of the game.

d00d
02-02-2010, 12:08 PM
What are your thoughts on this. He said this on NBA TV

anyone have a video link for this interview.

finally someone who matters tells the truth about the NBA. :clap:

Yankee Lifer
02-02-2010, 12:22 PM
I agree with him 100%. The talent level has gone up in the top players but the quality of the game has definatly gone down. Back then every guy on the team had a purpose and was atleast talented enough to get on the court without totally embarresing the organization. Now some guys dont belong in any type of organized league. They belong in a school yard or park.
Some of the top PG's in the game carry everytime they put the ball on the floor. The more talent a player has the more the ref closes his eyes.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 12:33 PM
[QUOTE= I think Wilt Chamberlain, in his prime, playing today would be able to post numbers that are head-and-shoulders above everybody else in the league. QUOTE]
you're crazy

Personal attacks that have no argument behind them are completely useless. I took the time to explain why I believed that, and you have every right to disagree, but if you can't back up "you're crazy" with something, well, there's no reason to lead even the least amount of credibility to your comment.

If you are just going to launch into personal attack with nothing to back up your statements, perhaps you should be having conversations with fourth graders instead of adults.

arkanian215
02-02-2010, 12:34 PM
What are your thoughts on this. He said this on NBA TV

Bitter old guy = hater. stfu west and enjoy your retirement. no one cares about number 2 if you aren't playing the game anymore.

Gibby23
02-02-2010, 12:36 PM
I agree. The NBA is watered down. Too many project players in the NBA, too many 18 and 19 year olds trying to learn the game on the fly. Sure they are better athletes but alot of these young guys don't get the fundamentals down until later on in their career. The game would be a lot less watered down if people stayed in school longer and were ready to play when they came to the NBA.

Look at a guy like Roy Hibbert. He stayed 4 years and worked on his game. He is a productive player.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 12:43 PM
You've officially lost your mind boy, maybe Chamberlain, but Russel would get eaten in today's game, and he'd probably slide down to PF.

Maybe Russell would have had to play power forward in the 80's/90's, but Blair is starting at center for the Spurs and he's 6'7, and Houston has an even shroter starting center (Hayes is 6'6).

Russell's defence and rebouding would earn him a max contract, especially considering how weak the center position is in the leauge. Channing Frye? Haywood? Lee? Bogut? Jefferson? Okafor? Dalembert? Oden? Dampier? Perkins? Collison? All these guys are starting centers in the league right now and I can't see how anybody could argue any one of them would perform better than Russell? Eaten in today's game? He would dominate the boards and on defence. Howard is consider the most dominant center today and he is the same height as Russell and doesn't have half the offensive game that Russell had.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 12:52 PM
Bitter old guy = hater. stfu west and enjoy your retirement. no one cares about number 2 if you aren't playing the game anymore.

When guys are referring to not only one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but also one of the greatest general managers of all time as a "hater", this site loses what little credibility it may have had.

Jerry West is not only a former player, he is a GM. He is the GM who put together the Lakers dynasty in the 80's as well as the Shaq/Kobe team. He used late first roudn draft picks to grab guys like AC Green, Bryon Scott, Sam Perkins, KOBE BRYANT (who was passed up by several teams). Not to mention guys like Elden Campbell, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel. He knows talent better than anybody who has work in the front office of any organization. When he talks, people should listen. And this is not just an geration thing, West knows his $#!T. He's put together some of the best teams in the history o the league outside of his generation and got the Grizzlies into the playoffs. He knows how to evaluate talent and has proven that ability time and time again. If I was a GM and he pulled me aside and suggest I draft a certain player I would follow his instruction in a heart beat.

"Hater". That word is useless and anybody who applies it to one of the greatest basketball minds in the history of the game is clearly not thinking.

Trouble87
02-02-2010, 01:00 PM
West sounds bitter

Players games adapt to the style of play that's popular... IF fundamental basketball was more popular, I'm sure the current players would be doing things those old schoolers couldn't dream of.

RaiderLakersA's
02-02-2010, 01:04 PM
When guys are referring to not only one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but also one of the greatest general managers of all time as a "hater", this site loses what little credibility it may have had.

Jerry West is not only a former player, he is a GM. He is the GM who put together the Lakers dynasty in the 80's as well as the Shaq/Kobe team. He used late first roudn draft picks to grab guys like AC Green, Bryon Scott, Sam Perkins, KOBE BRYANT (who was passed up by several teams). Not to mention guys like Elden Campbell, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel. He knows talent better than anybody who has work in the front office of any organization. When he talks, people should listen. And this is not just an geration thing, West knows his $#!T. He's put together some of the best teams in the history o the league outside of his generation and got the Grizzlies into the playoffs. He knows how to evaluate talent and has proven that ability time and time again. If I was a GM and he pulled me aside and suggest I draft a certain player I would follow his instruction in a heart beat.

"Hater". That word is useless and anybody who applies it to one of the greatest basketball minds in the history of the game is clearly not thinking.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Raph12
02-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Maybe Russell would have had to play power forward in the 80's/90's, but Blair is starting at center for the Spurs and he's 6'7, and Houston has an even shroter starting center (Hayes is 6'6).

Russell's defence and rebouding would earn him a max contract, especially considering how weak the center position is in the leauge. Channing Frye? Haywood? Lee? Bogut? Jefferson? Okafor? Dalembert? Oden? Dampier? Perkins? Collison? All these guys are starting centers in the league right now and I can't see how anybody could argue any one of them would perform better than Russell? Eaten in today's game? He would dominate the boards and on defence. Howard is consider the most dominant center today and he is the same height as Russell and doesn't have half the offensive game that Russell had.

Howard is 6'11" 275 lbs of solid muscle, Russell is 6'9" 220lbs, he would get eaten by Howard.

albertc86
02-02-2010, 01:09 PM
It's true. There are a lot of lousy players in the league. The problem is, there are too many teams in the league. Some of these teams are filled with garbage.

TopsyTurvy
02-02-2010, 01:13 PM
You can ask any player who recently left the professional ranks of the sport and they will quickly criticize what the game/product has devolved into. Throw into the mix that some league officials and general managers are whispering about contraction and Jerry West is far from making a cynical stance without support.

D-Amazins
02-02-2010, 01:14 PM
I don't want to sound like the "get off my lawn guy", but I completely agree with West. I can't stand watching guys carry the ball and travel and never get whistled. I think the point your missing John Wayne is the actual play is worse, but the players are better.

Exactly this.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Howard is 6'11" 275 lbs of solid muscle, Russell is 6'9" 220lbs, he would get eaten by Howard.

I've seen both listed as 6'10, but whether Howard has an inch or two on Russell, Russell's weight (which I've seen listed as anywhere from 215-225) is not far from Howards 240 (which is the heaviest I've seen Howard listed http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html) Not sure where you go your number from, but even if you were right, that is only one center in a league that is lacking. You haven't spoken to the other centers like Blair (6'7 and the best rebounder among all rookies) and Hayes (6'6), not to mention guys like Ben Wallace, Al Horford and many others who are listed as the same height (or shorter) than Russell.

i can't take anybody serisouly who doesn't think Russell coudl paly well in a league where Hayes, Blair and Frye are starting centers on .500+ clubs.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 01:37 PM
I've seen both listed as 6'10, but whether Howard has an inch or two on Russell, Russell's weight (which I've seen listed as anywhere from 215-225) is not far from Howards 240 (which is the heaviest I've seen Howard listed http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html) Not sure where you go your number from, but even if you were right, that is only one center in a league that is lacking. You haven't spoken to the other centers like Blair (6'7 and the best rebounder among all rookies) and Hayes (6'6), not to mention guys like Ben Wallace, Al Horford and many others who are listed as the same height (or shorter) than Russell.

i can't take anybody serisouly who doesn't think Russell coudl paly well in a league where Hayes, Blair and Frye are starting centers on .500+ clubs.

Howard is 6'11" 275 lbs of solid muscle:
http://www.nba.com/magic/news/notes.pdf
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/09/29/dwight-howard-arrives-to-camp-bigger-expects-to-be-better/

Russell is 6'9" 220lbs:
http://www.nba.com/history/players/russell_bio.html

Russell's offensive game was limited, Howard is only 24 and looks really good in the low post already beating Russell's career-high for PPG easily at a MUCH higher percentage.

Dwight, Jefferson, Lopez, Nene, Bynum, Duncan, Yao, Marc and Pau Gasol would all tear Russell up easily.

15ppg at 44% from the floor for a center and that in the '60s, OMG he was unstoppable!

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 01:40 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks for the love. I am the furthest thing form a Lakers fan (no disrespect intended), but I have a great respect for what West has done in the front office as much as on the court, and being a fan of the game one has to appreciate his accomplisment on and off the court. He truly is one of the greatest minds and has made every draft pick count, and never drafted the likes of Adam Morrison and Kwambe Brown- unlike other elite shooting guards who have taken up jobs in the front office ;-) And as much as drafting Kobe seems like a no-brainer now, its easy to forget that he was picked 13th overall and was only picked by the Hornets because West told them to draft him for the Vlade Divac trade. When one looks at the players he scouted as either scout, coach or GM for the Lakers, its hard to ignore his brilliance as a GM:
James Edawards (key bench player for Champion Pistsons)
Norm Nixon
Magic Johnson
Michael Cooper
James Worthy
AC Green
Byron Scott (draft/trade)
Vlade Divac
Nick Van Exel
Eddie Jones
George Lynch
Derrick Fischer
Kobe Bryant (draft day trade)

Not to mention the trades and free agent signings he pulled off that landed players like: Glen Rice and Sam Perkins and Shaq.

I can't think of any front office guy who has pulled in that much talent for any franchise.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Howard is 6'11" 275 lbs of solid muscle:
http://www.nba.com/magic/news/notes.pdf
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/09/29/dwight-howard-arrives-to-camp-bigger-expects-to-be-better/

Russell is 6'9" 220lbs:
http://www.nba.com/history/players/russell_bio.html

Russell's offensive game was limited, Howard is only 24 and looks really good in the low post already beating Russell's career-high for PPG easily at a MUCH higher percentage.

Dwight, Jefferson, Lopez, Nene, Bynum, Duncan, Yao, Marc and Pau Gasol would all tear Russell up easily.

15ppg at 44% from the floor for a center and that in the '60s, OMG he was unstoppable!

Yes, its all about scoring averages. That's why Dominque Wilkens is a better player than Russell, because even though he got ZERO rings to Russell's ELEVEN rings, he had a higher career scoring average. Because its all about scoring averages, not defence or rebounds. And anybody who is a team player and whips out wicked outlet passes so the guards can get a run on the fast break should not be considered a good player because even though he starts the fast break he doesn't score, because impact on the court can only be measured by scoring averages. And its not like Russell ever had to play a big center like Wilt Chamberlain (7'1 and 275 pounds) and come out on top every season.

you are right. russell would suck *** now, what was I thinking.

RaiderLakersA's
02-02-2010, 01:51 PM
Players games adapt to the style of play that's popular...

This is counter intuitive. In the current era, the rules of the game have "adapted" to the players, not the other way around. In a perfect world the rules are still the rules and should be enforced. Once upon a time a carry was a carry and a travel was a travel. But when superstars like LeBron does it, not so much. And when superstars like Nash palms, not so much.

But Mr. West isn't just talking about the rules. He's talking about most of the players in the league and their subpar skill sets.

Professional sports is about MORE than athleticism. It's why you can have a guy like Steve Largent, who was not as big or strong or fast as many of the receivers of his era, still make plays time and time again, eventually earning a place in the NFL Hall of Fame. Fundamentals!

The fact that many of the posts are slamming Mr. West's comments tells you all that you need to know about the folks who watch the NBA now. This is the "Pants on the Ground" Generation. :o

Raph12
02-02-2010, 02:10 PM
Yes, its all about scoring averages. That's why Dominque Wilkens is a better player than Russell, because even though he got ZERO rings to Russell's ELEVEN rings, he had a higher career scoring average. Because its all about scoring averages, not defence or rebounds. And anybody who is a team player and whips out wicked outlet passes so the guards can get a run on the fast break should not be considered a good player because even though he starts the fast break he doesn't score, because impact on the court can only be measured by scoring averages. And its not like Russell ever had to play a big center like Wilt Chamberlain (7'1 and 275 pounds) and come out on top every season.

you are right. russell would suck *** now, what was I thinking.

You were the one talking about offensive prowess ... Russelll had good defense and rebounding, but guarding the bigger, stronger and more athletic guys in todays league, he'd be just above-avg in both categories.

There were only 8-14 teams in the league back in Russell's day, besides Chamberlain and Thurmond (was there for the latter part of Bill's career), Russell had no real competition at the center position. Winning titles back in those days was alot easier than it is now.

arkanian215
02-02-2010, 02:17 PM
When guys are referring to not only one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but also one of the greatest general managers of all time as a "hater", this site loses what little credibility it may have had.

Jerry West is not only a former player, he is a GM. He is the GM who put together the Lakers dynasty in the 80's as well as the Shaq/Kobe team. He used late first roudn draft picks to grab guys like AC Green, Bryon Scott, Sam Perkins, KOBE BRYANT (who was passed up by several teams). Not to mention guys like Elden Campbell, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel. He knows talent better than anybody who has work in the front office of any organization. When he talks, people should listen. And this is not just an geration thing, West knows his $#!T. He's put together some of the best teams in the history o the league outside of his generation and got the Grizzlies into the playoffs. He knows how to evaluate talent and has proven that ability time and time again. If I was a GM and he pulled me aside and suggest I draft a certain player I would follow his instruction in a heart beat.

"Hater". That word is useless and anybody who applies it to one of the greatest basketball minds in the history of the game is clearly not thinking.


He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.

"When I played, you couldn't palm the ball, and walk all over the court"

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

"It's Entertainment these days, I understand"he's essentially saying that the new league has made it easier for guys to do what he did. he's taking away from kobe's accomplishment.

i couldn't care less if he was the next einstein or came up with a cure for aids much less being a great basketball mind. that's irrelevant to what he said.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2010, 02:21 PM
West is absolutely right. Fundamentally a lot of the players today wouldn't have lasted long in his era. Most of them today do it off sheer athleticism. For one of the greatest players to ever play I think he's more than qualified to make that statement.

FYI he wasn't referring to Kobe by the way. If you saw the entire interview he said the Kobe is probably all around the best Laker ever and he was glad to see him break the record and not someone else because of his game.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 02:31 PM
There was alot of garbage back in those days, basketballs wasnt great until segregation was completely eliminated but then the ABA started stealing talent, so it wasnt until the merger that the league really resembled anything close to todays game.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 02:33 PM
You were the one talking about offensive prowess smartass... Russelll had good defense and rebounding, but guarding the bigger, stronger and more athletic guys in todays league, he'd be just above-avg in both categories.

There were only 8-14 teams in the league back in Russell's day, besides Chamberlain and Thurmond (was there for the latter part of Bill's career), Russell had no real competition at the center position. Winning titles back in those days was alot easier than it is now.

You might want to read back in the thread, I am not the one who brought up scoring. And as for it being "easier" to win back then, I wouldn't hardly say that is quantifiable. You can just as easily say it was harder because the teams were deeper. And the Lakers Squad was an amazing team in the late 60's early 70's. And if you want to pretend like Willis Reed and Jerry Lucas weren't great centers (as well as Thurmand and Chamberlain) and ignore Bob Petite and Elgyn Baylor as two of the most dominant front court players in the history of the league, that's fine. Zelmo Beaty may not be a name you hear today, or Reggie Harding, or Wayne Embry, or Luke Jackson. And maybe you haven't heard of Dave Debusschere or Walt Bellemy, or Gus Johnson or Bailey Howell. But every one of those guys were hard nosed rebounders who averaged double digits. Some of them weren't consistent every year (just like many players today), but there were plenty of guys who competed for rebounds. And every guy on the above list averaged double-digit rebounds in the same season. If you count that up its 13 players averaging double-digit rebounds. Thirteen. In a league with only 8 teams. Today, in a league with 30 teams, there are only five centers are averaging double digit rebounds and only 13 players (an equal number to the 64/65 season). It takes 30 teams in today's league to produce as many double digit rebounders as 8 teams in 64/65, and those 13 players from 65 got more total rebounds than the top 15 players combined today. So if you want to pretend like the league wasn't competetive back in the 60's, go ahead, and if you want to believe that Russell couldn't play like an all-star and work the boards like a fiend, go a head. If you want to get hun up on size/weight, ust look at Dennis Rodman (6'7 and 210 and the best rebounding numbers since Chamberlain's last season), or Gerald Wallace, who earlier in the season was leading all rebounders- Howard included, at 6'7 and only 220. But if you polled every player, coach and GM in the league I very seriously doubt you would find one who thought Bill Russell couldn't be an all-star in today's game.

Peace

J4KOP99
02-02-2010, 02:34 PM
When guys are referring to not only one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but also one of the greatest general managers of all time as a "hater", this site loses what little credibility it may have had.

Jerry West is not only a former player, he is a GM. He is the GM who put together the Lakers dynasty in the 80's as well as the Shaq/Kobe team. He used late first roudn draft picks to grab guys like AC Green, Bryon Scott, Sam Perkins, KOBE BRYANT (who was passed up by several teams). Not to mention guys like Elden Campbell, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel. He knows talent better than anybody who has work in the front office of any organization. When he talks, people should listen. And this is not just an geration thing, West knows his $#!T. He's put together some of the best teams in the history o the league outside of his generation and got the Grizzlies into the playoffs. He knows how to evaluate talent and has proven that ability time and time again. If I was a GM and he pulled me aside and suggest I draft a certain player I would follow his instruction in a heart beat.

"Hater". That word is useless and anybody who applies it to one of the greatest basketball minds in the history of the game is clearly not thinking.


Great ****ing post.

We're talking about Jerry West here, I think he knows what he is talking about.

grega1976
02-02-2010, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=BoognishMN;12173720]

and he's out of his mind...especially defense....if you let some of todays players play defense like they did back then, with all the uncalled fouls and roughing, the now-a-day players would take up the entire 1st team all-defensive.........kobe...g wallace.....big ben....d howard....bron...wade..battier...artest...hinrich. ..just to name a few...todays players are miles ahead of the players in west's day

when did you start watching Basketball? Players today get away with WAY more on D than they did in the 60's and 70's... that's why the scoring averages are SO SO SO much lower... the only way alot of players today CAN play defense is because they don't call the game nearly as close as they used to.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 02:36 PM
West is absolutely right. Fundamentally a lot of the players today wouldn't have lasted long in his era. Most of them today do it off sheer athleticism. For one of the greatest players to ever play I think he's more than qualified to make that statement.

FYI he wasn't referring to Kobe by the way. If you saw the entire interview he said the Kobe is probably all around the best Laker ever and he was glad to see him break the record and not someone else because of his game.
What fundamentals are players today lacking because I can tell you alot of fundamentals those 60's were missing.

The fundamentals have evolved with players getting longer and quicker, like back in the day 1 handed passes werent really the norm, nowadays if you have to gather to make the pass, that extra .5 seconds it takes means the window you thought you had is now covered. Its why Nash never listened to his instructors on how to play fundamental basketball. About the only thing fundamental about his game is how he shoots, and I doubt your going to make the claim that there were better shooters in Jerrys day.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2010, 02:37 PM
Great ****ing post.

We're talking about Jerry West here, I think he knows what he is talking about.


x's 2. Second guessing the Logo on basketball talent is like saying Robert DeNiro isn't qualified to say who's a good actor or not.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 02:38 PM
Great ****ing post.

We're talking about Jerry West here, I think he knows what he is talking about.

You know Wilt once said nobody is scoring 40-50 anymore because the league lacks scorers. Kobe once thought trading for Kidd would be better than holding onto Bynum.

Players are just as prone to mental mistakes as we are


x's 2. Second guessing the Logo on basketball talent is like saying Robert DeNiro isn't qualified to say who's a good actor or not.

OK so West has an eye for talent, and more credible than most, still debate the matter on your own merits

TheWatcher34
02-02-2010, 02:42 PM
Its give and take, in today's game the athletes are faster, bigger, and stronger so Jerry would have had a more difficult time playing in the league today. I mean if you took a very good, but not great player like Iggy and put him in back in Jerry's day, he would be one of the more physically dominant guys in the game. He isnt that in todays league though.

absolutely! Mr. West needs to accept that times have changed.... and the differenct apects/attributes of the game/players that come with it.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 02:42 PM
You might want to read back in the thread, I am not the one who brought up scoring. And as for it being "easier" to win back then, I wouldn't hardly say that is quantifiable. You can just as easily say it was harder because the teams were deeper. And the Lakers Squad was an amazing team in the late 60's early 70's. And if you want to pretend like Willis Reed and Jerry Lucas weren't great centers (as well as Thurmand and Chamberlain) and ignore Bob Petite and Elgyn Baylor as two of the most dominant front court players in the history of the league, that's fine. Zelmo Beaty may not be a name you hear today, or Reggie Harding, or Wayne Embry, or Luke Jackson. And maybe you haven't heard of Dave Debusschere or Walt Bellemy, or Gus Johnson or Bailey Howell. But every one of those guys were hard nosed rebounders who averaged double digits. Some of them weren't consistent every year (just like many players today), but there were plenty of guys who competed for rebounds. And every guy on the above list averaged double-digit rebounds in the same season. If you count that up its 13 players averaging double-digit rebounds. Thirteen. In a league with only 8 teams. Today, in a league with 30 teams, there are only five centers are averaging double digit rebounds and only 13 players (an equal number to the 64/65 season). It takes 30 teams in today's league to produce as many double digit rebounders as 8 teams in 64/65, and those 13 players from 65 got more total rebounds than the top 15 players combined today. So if you want to pretend like the league wasn't competetive back in the 60's, go ahead, and if you want to believe that Russell couldn't play like an all-star and work the boards like a fiend, go a head. If you want to get hun up on size/weight, ust look at Dennis Rodman (6'7 and 210 and the best rebounding numbers since Chamberlain's last season), or Gerald Wallace, who earlier in the season was leading all rebounders- Howard included, at 6'7 and only 220. But if you polled every player, coach and GM in the league I very seriously doubt you would find one who thought Bill Russell couldn't be an all-star in today's game.

Peace

Bill Russell retired in the late '60s, he was in his prime from the late '50s to mid '60s, at which point, besides Wilt, Nate and arguably Petit, Russell had no competition at the center position.

LMFAO you think the league was deeper back then? The league is a lot deeper now, which is why so many guys don't go into double-digits for rebounding. Plus, they played at a much faster pace then, now the game is slower, which in return affects the numbers game drastically.

Bill Russell is one of the most overrated players of all time, in today's game, he'd be lucky to play like Dikembe Mutombo.

tr4shb0t
02-02-2010, 02:43 PM
the fundamentals have disappeared. see sig

arkanian215
02-02-2010, 02:46 PM
West is absolutely right. Fundamentally a lot of the players today wouldn't have lasted long in his era. Most of them today do it off sheer athleticism. For one of the greatest players to ever play I think he's more than qualified to make that statement.

FYI he wasn't referring to Kobe by the way. If you saw the entire interview he said the Kobe is probably all around the best Laker ever and he was glad to see him break the record and not someone else because of his game.

it was underhanded even if he wasn't talking about Kobe specifically. how would you feel if you just became the leading scorer on one of the most successful franchises in the NBA and then the guy who you beat out comes out and says congrats on beating my record but hey the rules are different now. you can now do this and that. we weren't allowed to do this and that.

that's a straight up insult.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2010, 02:50 PM
What fundamentals are players today lacking because I can tell you alot of fundamentals those 60's were missing.

The fundamentals have evolved with players getting longer and quicker, like back in the day 1 handed passes werent really the norm, nowadays if you have to gather to make the pass, that extra .5 seconds it takes means the window you thought you had is now covered. Its why Nash never listened to his instructors on how to play fundamental basketball. About the only thing fundamental about his game is how he shoots, and I doubt your going to make the claim that there were better shooters in Jerrys day.


The fundamentals Im referring to are things like how to properly come off screens, actually having a mid range game, boxing out, learning how to get to and hold your spot in the post, drop steps, jump stops etc.... Those skills are on the decline.

For example: how many players come to mind when I say how to come off a screen in balance and ready to shoot? To me that would be Ray and Rip Hamilton. Back in the day that used to be the norm. Im not talking the 60's, Im talking my era with guys like Dell Curry, Eddie Johnson, Joe Dumars, Jeff Hornachek.....

And Im pretty sure we can both agree the traveling rules have become more laxed to say the least.

DamnGoat
02-02-2010, 02:50 PM
He does have a point. So many players travel and never get called for it and you could probably see someone palm the ball every possession and there's never a whistle for that.

But on the other hand, there are a lot of players from his generation that wouldn't be athletic enough play in today's NBA.

Unbearable
02-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I don' think so when he was playing, players were smaller, less athletic, there were no african americans, latinos, or asian players, pitching was treated completely different. I guess I wouldn't say he wouldn't make it, but it wouldn't suprise me.

I'm pretty sure that Wilt was a teammate of his toward the end of their careers. The point is that players today do walk, there is superstar calls and palming occurs more now. It is not that the players that play today couldn't play the way they did back then it is just that they don't do so now because they don't have to.

tredigs
02-02-2010, 02:59 PM
Howard is 6'11" 275 lbs of solid muscle, Russell is 6'9" 220lbs, he would get eaten by Howard.


You've officially lost your mind boy, maybe Chamberlain, but Russel would get eaten in today's game, and he'd probably slide down to PF.

The top rebounder of the mid to late nineties was a 6'7", 210lb dude named Dennis Rodman. Led the league 7 straight years. Not the 7'1", 300 lbs of pure muscle that was Shaq. Do you see the correlation I'm making here? Rebounding isn't about size, that's just an aid. Russel would absolutely KILL it in today's league defensively and on the glass, just like he used to kill Chamberlain in his own league. I have exactly zero doubt he'd be top 2 in rebounding (probably 1st) and teams would drool over his competitiveness. He was a winner, plain and simple. To say he would be in the highest demand nowadays would be the understatement of the year.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2010, 03:03 PM
it was underhanded even if he wasn't talking about Kobe specifically. how would you feel if you just became the leading scorer on one of the most successful franchises in the NBA and then the guy who you beat out comes out and says congrats on beating my record but hey the rules are different now. you can now do this and that. we weren't allowed to do this and that.

that's a straight up insult.

I guess its kind of subjective since everyone will have a different take. I doubt Kobe was offended though because he's a student of the game. Remember last week when Kobe came out and said he wishes they could return to the old school rules? He knows the game was played differently then so I thats why I don't really see it as a diss by West.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 03:03 PM
The fundamentals Im referring to are things like how to properly come off screens, actually having a mid range game, boxing out, learning how to get to and hold your spot in the post, drop steps, jump stops etc.... Those skills are on the decline.

For example: how many players come to mind when I say how to come off a screen in balance and ready to shoot? To me that would be Ray and Rip Hamilton. Back in the day that used to be the norm. Im not talking the 60's, Im talking my era with guys like Dell Curry, Eddie Johnson, Joe Dumars, Jeff Hornachek.....

And Im pretty sure we can both agree the traveling rules have become more laxed to say the least.
Agreed on that note then,
The post game has suffered more than any other aspect, but when I read Jerry's quote I had his position in mind. They really arent more fundamentally sound, unless you buy into the idea that players only dribbled with their heads down because the the palming rules were so strict.

Jerry West was among the games most complete players and even he could only dribble in one direction. He got better at it with time, but by then it wasnt the 60's anymore.

And I dont know about the coming off curl thing, even a guy like Ricky Buckets knows how to come off a down screen and hit the midrange J. But to really dissect the matter you have to look at league shooting %'s in that situation but more importantly you have to consider the fact that the league has evolved. Some fundamentals arent stressed the way they used to be, the midrange game has gone extinct for a reason, 3pt shots and inside shots are much higher % shots. Even the best midrange shooters barely make enough of them to justify their shot selection.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 03:05 PM
The fundamentals Im referring to are things like how to properly come off screens, actually having a mid range game, boxing out, learning how to get to and hold your spot in the post, drop steps, jump stops etc.... Those skills are on the decline.

For example: how many players come to mind when I say how to come off a screen in balance and ready to shoot? To me that would be Ray and Rip Hamilton. Back in the day that used to be the norm. Im not talking the 60's, Im talking my era with guys like Dell Curry, Eddie Johnson, Joe Dumars, Jeff Hornachek.....

And Im pretty sure we can both agree the traveling rules have become more laxed to say the least.

Properly come off screens: Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, Eddie House, JJ Redick, Kyle Korver, etc...

Actually having a mid range game: Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh, Allen Iverson, Al Horford, etc...

Boxing out: Kevin Love, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby, Joakim Noah, Zach Randolph, etc...

Drop step: Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, Brook Lopez, etc...

Learning how to get to and hold your spot in the post is probably the only fundamental play that's faded away, that's because guys are stronger now and the fouls are called way too tight to lock people up effectively.

arkanian215
02-02-2010, 03:09 PM
When guys are referring to not only one of the greatest shooting guards of all time, but also one of the greatest general managers of all time as a "hater", this site loses what little credibility it may have had.

Jerry West is not only a former player, he is a GM. He is the GM who put together the Lakers dynasty in the 80's as well as the Shaq/Kobe team. He used late first roudn draft picks to grab guys like AC Green, Bryon Scott, Sam Perkins, KOBE BRYANT (who was passed up by several teams). Not to mention guys like Elden Campbell, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Excel. He knows talent better than anybody who has work in the front office of any organization. When he talks, people should listen. And this is not just an geration thing, West knows his $#!T. He's put together some of the best teams in the history o the league outside of his generation and got the Grizzlies into the playoffs. He knows how to evaluate talent and has proven that ability time and time again. If I was a GM and he pulled me aside and suggest I draft a certain player I would follow his instruction in a heart beat.

"Hater". That word is useless and anybody who applies it to one of the greatest basketball minds in the history of the game is clearly not thinking.
Then why all the bitterness? You don't think he meant anything by what the OP posted? A smart guy like him would just leave it out if he didn't want to draw attention to the changes in the game now wouldn't he?

maybe im reading too much into it but it sounds too much like an insult to me.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 03:10 PM
The top rebounder of the mid to late nineties was a 6'7", 210lb dude named Dennis Rodman. Led the league 7 straight years. Not the 7'1", 300 lbs of pure muscle that was Shaq. Do you see the correlation I'm making here? Rebounding isn't about size, that's just an aid. Russel would absolutely KILL it in today's league defensively and on the glass, just like he used to kill Chamberlain in his own league. I have exactly zero doubt he'd be top 2 in rebounding (probably 1st) and teams would drool over his competitiveness. He was a winner, plain and simple. To say he would be in the highest demand nowadays would be the understatement of the year.

Dennis Rodman was 500 times more athletic than Bill Russell, name some undersized, unathletic guys to lead the league in rebounding in the past 10 years.

Bill Russell is overrated plain and simple.

tredigs
02-02-2010, 03:14 PM
Dennis Rodman was 500 times more athletic than Bill Russell, name some undersized, unathletic guys to lead the league in rebounding in the past 10 years.

Bill Russell is overrated plain and simple.

Rodman was in no way any times more athletic than Russell. Have you ever seen Bill Russell on tape? Watch some of his games. He is one of the top 5 passing bigs I have ever seen (not in actual size/weight, but positionally), could block ANYONE'S shot, and had the best rebounding game I have seen. Rodman is right there with him, actually. He was an amazing rebounder too.
Funny thing is that his offensive game is what takes the most heat, but in countless interviews, the other HOFers like Cousy, etc, always say that he was the linchpin of their offense by always finding the perfect pass to set them up. They could never find a rhythm after he left. Your hate of that great is nuts.

Raph12
02-02-2010, 03:19 PM
Rodman was in no way any times more athletic than Russell. Have you ever seen Bill Russell on tape? Watch some of his games. He is one of the top 5 passing bigs I have ever seen, could block ANYONE'S shot, and had the best rebounding game I have seen. Rodman is right there with him, actually. He was an amazing rebounder too.
Funny thing is that his offensive game is what takes the most heat, but in countless interviews, the other HOFers like Cousy, etc, always say that he was the linchpin of their offense by always finding the perfect pass to set them up. They could never find a rhythm after he left. Your hate of that great is nuts.

I hate the era more than the player, Wilt and Thurmond were gifted physically and athletically, Bill was not. There is a reason why Wilt said Nate guards him better than Bill, Nate was much stronger and much more athletic.

Rodman was stronger, faster and jumped higher than Russell, I've seen both play and they are not on the same level athletically.

So you couldn't find anyone undersized and unathletic who's led the league in rebounding in the last 10 years huh?... quel surpris! :speechless:

Hawkeye15
02-02-2010, 03:20 PM
while I would agree that many players today do not posess the skill of players in the older days, guys from West's days would have problems even making the NBA today. Today's guys are bigger, stronger, faster, and that alone is part of the game of basketball. So, he is just being Jerry West

J4KOP99
02-02-2010, 03:21 PM
You know Wilt once said nobody is scoring 40-50 anymore because the league lacks scorers. Kobe once thought trading for Kidd would be better than holding onto Bynum.

Players are just as prone to mental mistakes as we are



OK so West has an eye for talent, and more credible than most, still debate the matter on your own merits

I thought Wilt said nobody was ever going to average 40-50 again?


And yes Kobe once said he didn't want Bynum on the team but I don't think that holds any weight on this topic.

Jerry West is a player evaluator and has either been playing or watching the NBA since the beginning. I would take his word over most...all the while knowing that he is prone to mental mistakes just as I am.

West has seen every player and style so I think he can be a fair judge of the talent or the "state of the league." As for the actual statement, yes there are lousy players in today's NBA, but there have always been lousy players so on that idea, I somewhat disagree.

-About fundamentals...
Players today can make up for a lack of fundamentals simply off the fact that they are 10 times more athletic and stronger than players of West's era. I think West understands that but still holds true to the style of play when he was in the league. He doesn't want to see guys jump right into the NBA at 18 or 19 years old because he knows 99% of them are not mentally prepared to play in this league.


My earlier post was made more to the idea that people were just throwing West under the bus because they didn't like what he had to say. I believe, a man of his basketball intelligence deserves at least a little respect when making a statement.

arkanian215
02-02-2010, 03:24 PM
I guess its kind of subjective since everyone will have a different take. I doubt Kobe was offended though because he's a student of the game. Remember last week when Kobe came out and said he wishes they could return to the old school rules? He knows the game was played differently then so I thats why I don't really see it as a diss by West.


"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," Bryant said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=4871616

Kobe wanted something different than West.

He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.

"When I played, you couldn't palm the ball, and walk all over the court"

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

"It's Entertainment these days, I understand"No where in that article did I see any hint of Kobe wanting palming or the steps rule changed.

cantstopthee
02-02-2010, 03:30 PM
i agree,but there are also players that would still be the best if not better if they played back then

tredigs
02-02-2010, 03:31 PM
I hate the era more than the player, Wilt and Thurmond were gifted physically and athletically, Bill was not. There is a reason why Wilt said Nate guards him better than Bill, Nate was much stronger and much more athletic.

Rodman was stronger, faster and jumped higher than Russell, I've seen both play and they are not on the same level athletically.

So you couldn't find anyone undersized and unathletic who's led the league in rebounding in the last 10 years huh?... quel surpris! :speechless:

No, Rodman wasn't. I do not know why you think this. Russell was perfectly athletic for a rebounder/shotblocker. And I wasn't even looking for your "last ten years undersized big" comment, because I made that point bright as day for you with Rodman. Unless physical fitness and training regimens have changed so dramatically over the last 10 years that you're insinuating Rodman's a mediocre rebounder in 2010? That'd be good. For what it's worth, Ben Wallace isn't a 7' high jumping behemoth either.

And maybe Wilt was just a primadonna of the highest order and didn't want to give the guy who absolutely crushed their team in the playoffs every year any credit? It's the most heated rivalry of all time and the two hated each other, don't expect too many compliments thrown either way there.

Your points fall flat, quel dommage!

EDIT: Since I don't believe that you've seen Russell play, here's a cheesy youtube clip to pass the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40iKnaUjz_w&feature=related#movie_player

Think Rodman, but with unparalleled shot blocking ability, Arvedis Sabonis' passing ability when he lived oversees, and the competitive fire of Jordan. And... black hair. That's Bill Russell.


[For what it's worth, I live in California and have never liked the Celtics, nor do I particularly like that era]

Jamiecballer
02-02-2010, 03:40 PM
jerry west played in a league that had between 8-17 teams in it. what the hell does he expect?

magichatnumber9
02-02-2010, 03:44 PM
Jerry just shut up.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2010, 03:52 PM
This is what he had to say about Kobe FYI



People say, well, that was an unbelievable shot other people cant do those things, OK? But for him, its not an unbelievable shot, its something thats become commonplace for him, and you expect it from him. Hes just been one of the most remarkable players I think in overall talent and again I dont know how you judge players other than talent I think hes probably been the greatest all-around player that the Lakers have ever had. And when I talk about all-around, Im talking about defense, and his ability to score the ball, his competitiveness and the fact that his teams win. You watch Magic Johnson play, a completely different player. He was incredible and I love Magic, but I think for pure talent and pure ability to go out and dominate a game the way he can dominate on the offensive end, and then to watch him defend hes become a very good defender. Hes become a great teammate. This is a long process from the time he was 17-years-old there is something that some people were born with, and he was born with it. How do you describe it?


http://thelakersnation.com/blog/2010/02/01/jerry-west-kobe-is-the-greatest-laker-ever-at-jordans-status/

Aar684
02-02-2010, 03:53 PM
He's 100% correct. While physical talent might have gone up, the quality of basketball has gone way way down. Players have no fundamentals. The game is all one on one. Travels aren't called. Superstars get preferential treatment. Whatever makes for exciting plays is allowed these days. One on one the guys today win. Actual team basketball goes to the old guys.

RaiderLakersA's
02-02-2010, 03:55 PM
jerry west played in a league that had between 8-17 teams in it. what the hell does he expect?

No worries, if the impending contraction talks come to fruition, many of those "lousy" players will find themselves out of a job. Wow, now that I think about it, maybe contraction is a good thing?

Raoul Duke
02-02-2010, 03:58 PM
The game is recieved by a substantially larger audience today, hence more kids play the game today, hence more kids who are great athletes or have great natural instincts get drawn to the game today, hence the talent pool at the top is much much bigger/better today.

I used to just assume that players in West's era had better fundamentals than the players of today, especially things like the jump-shot and free throw shooting, but when I looked deeper I found otherwise.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2010, 03:58 PM
No, Rodman wasn't. I do not know why you think this. Russell was perfectly athletic for a rebounder/shotblocker. And I wasn't even looking for your "last ten years undersized big" comment, because I made that point bright as day for you with Rodman. Unless physical fitness and training regimens have changed so dramatically over the last 10 years that you're insinuating Rodman's a mediocre rebounder in 2010? That'd be good. For what it's worth, Ben Wallace isn't a 7' high jumping behemoth either.

And maybe Wilt was just a primadonna of the highest order and didn't want to give the guy who absolutely crushed their team in the playoffs every year any credit? It's the most heated rivalry of all time and the two hated each other, don't expect too many compliments thrown either way there.

Your points fall flat, quel dommage!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
Yes, Russell was an amazing athlete. He was VERY athletic, that is why he was drafted so high and that is why he had so much success.

There are people who will say he didn't score much, but he was a great offensive player. Like Duncan, he had a solid mid-range jumper and great post moves, but alos like Duncan he knew he didn't need to score every time to make an impact. He'd spread the floor so some of the other great offensive players on his team could get easier shots, work the boards for offensive rebounds, kick out wicked outlet passes to jump start he fast break and he was a dominante defender. Russell was amazing then and would be now if he played today in his prime. I'm not saying he'd put up the same numbers, but he WAS ATHLETIC! Anybody who says he's not either doesn't know the meaning of the word or hasn't seen him play.

Slow and undersized laeding the league in rebounding? Nobody like that has ever lead the league in rebounding, but Russell was neither of those things. You can look at guys like Wes Unseld (6'6 or 6'7) who lead the league in rebounding, Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace (about the same size as Russell). There is just no wieght to the argument that Russell would get eaten up in today's game.

The truth of the matter is that players today get away with offensive fouls, illegal screens, crab-dribble carries, and travelling. There are all observable for anybody who watches the games. Any players who tried these things in the 60's 70's and 80's would have been called on it and player today who depend on these things would not succeed in the 70's or 60's game unless they changed their game. Jordan and Bryant and James and Wade would tear up the 60's NBA, yes, but Chamberlain, West, Baylor, Thurmand, Russell and many others would thrive today. There are old school players today (like Duncan) who have seen a lot of success, and New School guys like LBJ and Bryant who have also had a lot of success. We can never prove who would be better but I think we should all be able to agree that the cream of the crop from any generation post-shot-clock would be able to compete with the cream of the crop from any other generation, be it 00's, 90's, 80's 70's or 60's.

can't we all just get a long?

P.S. Russell has more rings than fingers, so lets just admit the guy is a basketball god already!

The Ooh Child
02-02-2010, 04:01 PM
I think some of West's comments were a little off base. He probably should've said that a lot of players in the league today probably wouldn't have been able to hang in the 80's/90's era. I think the talent level has declined since that era. But I do agree with him about the rules changes. This current era of the NBA is a lesser, slightly bastardized version.

ChiSox219
02-02-2010, 04:36 PM
I agree with West, traveling is out of control. I watched Lebron take 3 1/2 steps with the ball touching the ground and he throws a fit because he didn't draw a foul.

Props to Tredigs for destroying a couple of posts.

effen5
02-02-2010, 05:37 PM
He's 100% correct. While physical talent might have gone up, the quality of basketball has gone way way down. Players have no fundamentals. The game is all one on one. Travels aren't called. Superstars get preferential treatment. Whatever makes for exciting plays is allowed these days. One on one the guys today win. Actual team basketball goes to the old guys.

:clap:

heathonater
02-02-2010, 05:59 PM
west has a right to his opinion. comparing the nba from his era to now would show some huge differences. however, despite the lack of travelling and fundamentals at times, the nba has more depth in talent and the athletes today are conditioned better than they ever have been.

Chronz
02-02-2010, 06:26 PM
Raph has a vendetta against Russ, wasnt Russell a track star as well and an olympic caliber high jumper? Bill Simmons described Russ perfectly.

"Russell was like a left-handed, infinitely more cerebral Dennis Rodman, only if Rodman had Walton's passing talent, David Robinson's athletic ability and Michael Jordan's maniacal drive, and if Rodman could block shots like Josh Smith unleashed on the WNBA for an entire season."

Draco
02-02-2010, 06:57 PM
I agree with West insomuch as basketball is more entertainment today than the sport it used to be back in the day.

ldc62
02-02-2010, 09:14 PM
I don't think so Jerry. Guys today are just so damn athletic.

ldc62
02-02-2010, 09:14 PM
I agree with West insomuch as basketball is more entertainment today than the sport it used to be back in the day.

You can blame Stern for that.

Draco
02-02-2010, 09:35 PM
You can blame Stern for that.

Yeah, he's probably part of it.. but I think modern day sports in general is more entertainment and commercialization than the sports they once were. It takes 2.5 hours to televise a 48 minute game.. All star weekend is kinda gimmicky, athletes are a household name before they've really proven anything, etc etc.

AddiX
02-02-2010, 10:02 PM
I don't think so Jerry. Guys today are just so damn athletic.

There lies the problem, all these guys do today is score and dunk.

I always tell young ball players or NBA fans, go watch some old playoff games. It barely even looks like the same sport.

Todays league is all about "specialty players." 6-7 mill for a guy who just shoots, 6-7 mill for a guy who plays ok defense. It's nuts, I miss the old NBA. Having guys that can shoot the mid-range is like a luxury these days. Hell most players can't even pass the ball no more.

This is how ball is meant to be played.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AGckrRXic

mzgrizz
02-02-2010, 10:40 PM
x's 2. Second guessing the Logo on basketball talent is like saying Robert DeNiro isn't qualified to say who's a good actor or not.

Really? Guess I missed all his great draft picks and blockbuster trades (except the hidden ones.....) for the Grizzlies when he was GM.
I think he felt threatened by Kobe overtaking him AND Kobe has years left to make that many more points. Old fart.

FlakeyFool
02-02-2010, 10:42 PM
he was clearly watching a nets game.

montazingmvp
02-03-2010, 12:19 AM
Really? Guess I missed all his great draft picks and blockbuster trades (except the hidden ones.....) for the Grizzlies when he was GM.
I think he felt threatened by Kobe overtaking him AND Kobe has years left to make that many more points. Old fart.

these forums are full of idiots...its like arguing with 4th graders...

west is not giving kobe a low blow here...he actually called kobe the greatest laker of all time..

oh and bill russell was a great track runner and an overall incredible athlete. top 20 of all time.

anybody saying otherwise is simply in denial or completely ignorant.

ElMarroAfamado
02-03-2010, 12:44 AM
if he isnt talking about lebron james then i dont know who hes talking about
but yeah
when a guy like luke walton is in the league you know things are bad in the nba

_KB24_
02-03-2010, 12:53 AM
The talent level is much HIGHER than when West played. At the same time, he does make some valid points.

Grim Reaper
02-03-2010, 12:59 AM
I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth could make the mlb today....

I was just about to say that. There were guys back then that threw in the high 90's and he didn't even train and he smashed balls all over the place. He could play in any era.

SteveNash
02-03-2010, 01:08 AM
One of the reasons players today can't score 50 a game is because they can't play much past 38 minutes without getting exhausted and/or getting into foul trouble. Chamberlain could easily come into this game today and post 40+ a game is the offence was run through him as it was when he played for Philly, and he'd get in the high teens for rebounds too. Kobe got 80+ one game, and averaged 35+ one season, and if Kobe can post numbers like that, I'm sure considering his FG% Chamberlain could do the same today.

Players are much bigger and stronger today. The game has changed or are you going to bash Usain Bolt if he decided to run in a marathon and got his *** kicked?

It's really so simple, anyone saying the game isn't better (may be less fun to watch) is simply living in denial.

mzgrizz
02-03-2010, 01:10 AM
Players are much bigger and stronger today. The game has changed or are you going to bash Usain Bolt if he decided to run in a marathon and got his *** kicked?

It's really so simple, anyone saying the game isn't better (may be less fun to watch) is simply living in denial.

x 2

montazingmvp
02-03-2010, 02:39 AM
Players are much bigger and stronger today. The game has changed or are you going to bash Usain Bolt if he decided to run in a marathon and got his *** kicked?

It's really so simple, anyone saying the game isn't better (may be less fun to watch) is simply living in denial.

the problem with your argument is despite players being bigger and better conditioned, is that they aren't allowed to use their big muscles without a foul being called. you couldn't even count the number of touch fouls that happen in each game. i really don't see how the fact that players are bigger or strongers makes any difference...if we're talking about football, then sure...but you're hardly even allowed to make contact in basketball so the fact that players are stronger really doesn't make a difference...the fact that they are more athletic sure, that makes a difference..

wilt would certainly have no problem with the athleticism of todays players. seeing as he would still be the most athletic big man in the game...

Luffy
02-03-2010, 03:12 AM
Who cares about being the youngest to reach 25000 points!!! Its a great achievement but players weren't aloud to enter the league at a certain age back than so you can't really compare this number. The true number that you should look at is "fewest games played to reach 25000 pts". Looking at this, Kobe is still behind Jerry West. West reached 25000 pts in fewer games.

BTW...
Jordan played 1072 games in his career for a total of 32292 points. Thats 82 games more then Kobe has played until now in his career. if Kobe averages 25 a game for the next 82 games he would finish with 27,062 points.

SteveNash
02-03-2010, 08:26 AM
the problem with your argument is despite players being bigger and better conditioned, is that they aren't allowed to use their big muscles without a foul being called. you couldn't even count the number of touch fouls that happen in each game. i really don't see how the fact that players are bigger or strongers makes any difference...if we're talking about football, then sure...but you're hardly even allowed to make contact in basketball so the fact that players are stronger really doesn't make a difference...the fact that they are more athletic sure, that makes a difference..

wilt would certainly have no problem with the athleticism of todays players. seeing as he would still be the most athletic big man in the game...

They aren't able to use their muscles to run faster? Jump higher? Finish at the rim? Basketball is still a contact sport despite what you may think.

As for Wilt, he'd be fine though not nearly as dominant. The problem is that Jerry West is comparing leagues. Maybe 5-10 percent of players from his era could make the transition. While 99% of the league could make teams in the 60s.

montazingmvp
02-03-2010, 10:12 AM
They aren't able to use their muscles to run faster? Jump higher? Finish at the rim? Basketball is still a contact sport despite what you may think.

As for Wilt, he'd be fine though not nearly as dominant. The problem is that Jerry West is comparing leagues. Maybe 5-10 percent of players from his era could make the transition. While 99% of the league could make teams in the 60s.

you were talking about players being bigger and stronger...strength and size has nothing to do with how high someone can jump or how fast they can run (or how good they are at basketball)..basketball may be a contact sport, but when contact occurs a foul is called the majority of the time.

wilt wouldn't be putting up 50 and 20 like he was back in the day...
but i wouldn't put it past him to put up 30 and 15 or there abouts...

players are bigger and stronger today because they have training regimens and dietary plans that enable them to get their bodies into peak form...

if you took players from the 60's and gave them these oppurtunities....they would be just as big and physical as they are today...

if you took players from today and placed them in the 60's without all these oppurtunities they would be the same size as the players back then...

BkOriginalOne
02-03-2010, 11:06 AM
The only thing I miss is the toughness on the Defensive end.
And, also, the lesser penalties for physical altercations.

IversonIsKrazy
02-03-2010, 02:06 PM
the NBA is as talented as it has ever been imo.

johnwayne
02-03-2010, 02:47 PM
x's 2. Second guessing the Logo on basketball talent is like saying Robert DeNiro isn't qualified to say who's a good actor or not.

unless there's new, younger, better actors, and de niro doesnt want to admit that these new actors are better than him

montazingmvp
02-03-2010, 02:54 PM
unless there's new, younger, better actors, and de niro doesnt want to admit that these new actors are better than him

get it through your thick skull...this was not a slight on kobe's game...

in the very same interview he mentioned kobe as the best laker of all time...jerry west played for the lakers you know...

jc people on this website...

johnwayne
02-03-2010, 03:03 PM
get it through your thick skull...this was not a slight on kobe's game...

in the very same interview he mentioned kobe as the best laker of all time...jerry west played for the lakers you know...

jc people on this website...


i dont think anybody knows what you're talking about...your answer doesn't correspond with my previous post......

Byronicle
02-03-2010, 03:10 PM
people were awful back then, and his argument his invalid

for starters you got many more talented basketball players because for one the population increased, therefore chances of finding good players increase

for another thing competition to get into the NBA is a lot harder considering that players whole lives these days is nothing but basketball from the day they can walk and the new programs they have now

another thing is that european players came over, with great players of their own as well as further putting more pressure on everybody else to improve.

wow i watched some of these old games and you would have one 7 footers dominating everybody because no other team had anybody with the height to counter that. Nowadays almost every team has someone 7 feet or closer

They may have more heart, if he is arguing that players are lousy PEOPLE, then I can agree with that but as athletes no way.

SteveNash
02-04-2010, 02:54 AM
you were talking about players being bigger and stronger...strength and size has nothing to do with how high someone can jump or how fast they can run (or how good they are at basketball)..basketball may be a contact sport, but when contact occurs a foul is called the majority of the time.

Tell me how Jerry West is going to consistently get his shot off in todays NBA. You think he's going to post up (no contract in todays NBA right?) or blow by todays players? Not a chance. He'd be lucky to get 15 PPG. Todays players are bigger, stronger, faster, can jump higher. Does that satisfy you?


players are bigger and stronger today because they have training regimens and dietary plans that enable them to get their bodies into peak form...

if you took players from the 60's and gave them these oppurtunities....they would be just as big and physical as they are today...

if you took players from today and placed them in the 60's without all these oppurtunities they would be the same size as the players back then...

And the players are better because scouting is better. And the players are better because the game got bigger and more people are playing it. And the players are better because the game has been internationalized. And the players are better because they don't smoke during half time. You can make all the excuses that you want, doesn't change what happened on the court back then.

montazingmvp
02-04-2010, 03:14 AM
Tell me how Jerry West is going to consistently get his shot off in todays NBA. You think he's going to post up (no contract in todays NBA right?) or blow by todays players? Not a chance. He'd be lucky to get 15 PPG. Todays players are bigger, stronger, faster, can jump higher. Does that satisfy you?



And the players are better because scouting is better. And the players are better because the game got bigger and more people are playing it. And the players are better because the game has been internationalized. And the players are better because they don't smoke during half time. You can make all the excuses that you want, doesn't change what happened on the court back then.

using screens ala rip hamilton or ray allen...if you can shoot as well as west could, you're going to succeed in the nba...add his basketball iq and he would do just fine in todays league...

and your completely missing my point in the second paragraph...

if the best players in the 60's could somehow travel through time and play at their prime against the best players of todays game, they would probably get destroyed...
my point is that if yester-years great players were born in the 80's as most of the best young players of todays league were, and they had all the same training, developmental oppurtunities and awareness of how to stay in top shape as todays players do, they would be competing with today's top players and playing at a similar level...

these guys were all great competitors and were the best at what they did...put them in any era under the same circumstances as the players in that era and they would be the best...

see my point?

_Supreme_
02-04-2010, 01:55 PM
The NBA today is a sissy league where the commercial aspect has priority over anything else.

It is all about empty flashy players and creating stars & legacies to sell mechandise. Players are made to appear much better than they actually are by the NBA's marketing machine and garbage media interested in selling their stories.

Basketball today is about scoring scoring and more scoring. Who cares about defense. Some players still play it, but it has much less priority than it used to have. Scoring sells your jersey after all, defense does not. A lot of players turn into lazy bums as soon as they do not have the ball in their hands anymore. The rules have evolved over time to facilitate all of this.

In the old days there were stars too, but those stars served within a team, as opposed to today, where it is one or two stars + a bunch of other guys making up a group that is called a team.