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Pentagram
01-26-2010, 06:32 PM
I remember when the Lakers signed Ron Artest, Laker's fans were saying the reason why Ron shot a low percentage (40.1%) was because he was asked to take so much of the scoring load and was forced to jack-up shots and that he was going to shoot WAY better with the Lakers (namely Kobe Bryant). Well, so far this year he is only shooting 42% from FG and 65.1% FT (he even shot slightly better from 3 in Houston and made more of them too) and went from scoring 17.1 a game last year to 11.5 a game this year.

So the possible Laker explanation is going to be, "Well he's not getting as many shots so he's shooting at a low percentage."

Which is it? Does he shoot a low FG percentage this year because he doesn't get as many shots? If yes, then why did he shoot a low FG percentage last year?

What do you think?

DerekRE_3
01-26-2010, 06:37 PM
Because he's not nearly as good offensively as he thinks he is.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 06:38 PM
Artest's TS% is above his career average and he's having one of his best years from the behind the arc.

Also, why does it matter? He's, the fourth/fifth option on offense for the lakers.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 06:40 PM
Artest's TS% is above his career average and he's having one of his best years from the behind the arc.

Also, why does it matter? He's, the fourth/fifth option on offense for the lakers.

You're not getting the point. Which excuse is it? Too many shots or too few shots? Or how about the amount of shots is not important in his case? Pick one.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
You're not getting the point. Which excuse is it? Too many shots or too few shots? Or how about the amount of shots is not important in his case? Pick one.

Artest is shooting the ball well this year, he shot take more 3's and look to pass more when he drives instead of forcing up inside shots.

This thread is just as irrelevent as the Carmelo thread you made. Artest isn't on the Lakers to score and Carmelo isn't on the Nuggets to rebound, both teams have multiple players to take care of scoring and rebounding.

G-Funk
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
What chisox said

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 06:50 PM
Artest is shooting the ball well this year, he shot take more 3's and look to pass more when he drives instead of forcing up inside shots.

This thread is just as irrelevent as the Carmelo thread you made. Artest isn't on the Lakers to score and Carmelo isn't on the Nuggets to rebound, both teams have multiple players to take care of scoring and rebounding.

If you think it's irrelevant why respond? I like to analyze teams, players, coaches, etc... you DON'T have to reply here. This has nothing to do with Ron Artest fitting in with the Lakers or the Laker's dominance in the west. Reread my thread and if you still find it irrelevant, then move on.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 06:50 PM
What chisox said

What anyone who defends the Lakers said!

Try and seperate the player from the team for a second and try answering without being biased or don't respond if you feel it's irrelevant. lol

It's not really difficult.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 06:57 PM
If you think it's irrelevant why respond? I like to analyze teams, players, coaches, etc... you DON'T have to reply here. This has nothing to do with Ron Artest fitting in with the Lakers or the Laker's dominance in the west. Reread my thread and if you still find it irrelevant, then move on.

I only brought up it's irrelevancy when you pushed me and also because Artest's offensive role is so minor that it's inconsequential what he shoots. I thought it would be informative to show that Artest is having a good year shooting the ball compared to his career averages. This makes those Lakers fans you were talking about, correct, Artest has shot better because he's had less of a load to carry and instead of creating his own shots like he did last year he is being set up more often.

kEviN21
01-26-2010, 06:58 PM
He sucks. He has no excuse for his poor FT% and he is no longer a defensive threat, more a liability. He also looks clumsy with his footing too.

_KB24_
01-26-2010, 07:07 PM
I've been a little disappointed with his offensive game. He forces the issue sometime. I love to see him spotting up from three, the last weeks, he has been killing it from beyond the ark.

As for your reasons, you are looking for a way to bash using those two theories. Artest is having a very good year considering he is the 4/5 option on this team.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:08 PM
I only brought up it's irrelevancy when you pushed me and also because Artest's offensive role is so minor that it's inconsequential what he shoots. I thought it would be informative to show that Artest is having a good year shooting the ball compared to his career averages. This makes those Lakers fans you were talking about, correct, Artest has shot better because he's had less of a load to carry and instead of creating his own shots like he did last year he is being set up more often.

Artest is a great fit for the Lakers, but this is not the point of the thread...

NiTEFuRY
01-26-2010, 07:09 PM
Sometimes I think he tries to hard...

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:10 PM
I've been a little disappointed with his offensive game. He forces the issue sometime. I love to see him spotting up from three, the last weeks, he has been killing it from beyond the ark.

As for your reasons, you are looking for a way to bash using those two theories. Artest is having a very good year considering he is the 4/5 option on this team.

Not looking to bash Artest or Laker fans. I just want to know your possible explanations for this. I, too, while not being a Laker's fan, felt Artest was going to be a more efficient player on the offensive end. The only thing I'm left with is that he is just not any good there but makes up for it with his defense and his relatively high 3-point %.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 07:21 PM
Not looking to bash Artest or Laker fans. I just want to know your possible explanations for this. I, too, while not being a Laker's fan, felt Artest was going to be a more efficient player on the offensive end. The only thing I'm left with is that he is just not any good there but makes up for it with his defense and his relatively high 3-point %.

He is a more efficient player this year. His shot rate doesn't need to change, just the distribution of where his shots are taken.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:33 PM
He is a more efficient player this year. His shot rate doesn't need to change, just the distribution of where his shots are taken.

He is more efficient in his FG% yes... but with as few shots as he attempts/makes you would think his efficiency would be better if the inverse was true that his FG% last year was low because he had too many shots.

smith&wesson
01-26-2010, 07:36 PM
this is easy.


its not that he isnt a good offensive player any more. for those of you who think that need to go check last years playoffs for the houston rockets. ron ron was playing really well.

to answer the question its because when he was in sacremento and houston he was the first or second option on the floor. In La he takes a back seat to kobe, gasol, and has to share time with odem. The lakers have alot of good players and only one ball to play with. its simple,

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:44 PM
I only brought up it's irrelevancy when you pushed me and also because Artest's offensive role is so minor that it's inconsequential what he shoots. I thought it would be informative to show that Artest is having a good year shooting the ball compared to his career averages. This makes those Lakers fans you were talking about, correct, Artest has shot better because he's had less of a load to carry and instead of creating his own shots like he did last year he is being set up more often.
I dont understand how the man who said he would rather take Battier to build an offense over Pierce finds the contributions of a minor offensive player of being inconsequential. Its not, hes done exactly what I said he would. Hes a downgrade on Ariza offensively, just like Ariza is a downgrade offensively on Artest for the Rockets.

Hes not having a good year, atleast not offensively and from what I gather about his health his defense may be slipping soon enough.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:45 PM
I've been a little disappointed with his offensive game. He forces the issue sometime. I love to see him spotting up from three, the last weeks, he has been killing it from beyond the ark.

As for your reasons, you are looking for a way to bash using those two theories. Artest is having a very good year considering he is the 4/5 option on this team.

Considering the fact that hes a 4/5 option hes having a HORRIBLE year.

DerekRE_3
01-26-2010, 07:47 PM
I dont understand how the man who said he would rather take Battier to build an offense over Pierce finds the contributions of a minor offensive player of being inconsequential. Its not, hes done exactly what I said he would. Hes a downgrade on Ariza offensively, just like Ariza is a downgrade offensively on Artest for the Rockets.

Hes not having a good year, atleast not offensively and from what I gather about his health his defense may be slipping soon enough.

Ever since he was traded to the Kings for Peja, he's been a lot bigger than he used to be. It seems like he's focused too much on getting big and it's really affected his foot speed. He's just not that ball hawking defender on the perimeter like he used to be.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:48 PM
Not looking to bash Artest or Laker fans. I just want to know your possible explanations for this. I, too, while not being a Laker's fan, felt Artest was going to be a more efficient player on the offensive end. The only thing I'm left with is that he is just not any good there but makes up for it with his defense and his relatively high 3-point %.

Every player is unique to his own skill curve, Artest has never shown the ability to up his efficiency with decreased usage. Its why I expected the Lakers offense to suffer with the loss of Ariza.

Only true winners or great offensive players can significantly increase their efficiency with less touches. Its why you dont just look at per game averages to dissect a players game but what his averages should look like in that role.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:50 PM
He is a more efficient player this year. His shot rate doesn't need to change, just the distribution of where his shots are taken.
For such a huge burden being taken off his workload this minimal gain in efficiency isnt going to propel the Lakers offense anywhere, I understand that wasnt what he was brought in for but in comparison to what they were getting from essentially the same position before its a drop off. And compared to other role players with minimal loads, Artest is among the least efficient.

If it wasnt for his D regaining some of its DPOY form the Lakers wouldve been F'd

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:52 PM
Ever since he was traded to the Kings for Peja, he's been a lot bigger than he used to be. It seems like he's focused too much on getting big and it's really affected his foot speed. He's just not that ball hawking defender on the perimeter like he used to be.

Yea but thats been true about him for awhile now, imagine how his footspeed is going to look now that he has to deal with plantar fasciatis (however its spelled)

DerekRE_3
01-26-2010, 07:53 PM
Yea but thats been true about him for awhile now, now think how his footspeed is going to look now that he has to deal with plantar fasciatis (however its spelled)

Yeah that's a killer. I think Tony Parker has that now or did earlier this year, which could explain why he hasn't been doing as well this year.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 07:58 PM
I dont understand how the man who said he would rather take Battier to build an offense over Pierce finds the contributions of a minor offensive player of being inconsequential. Its not, hes done exactly what I said he would. Hes a downgrade on Ariza offensively, just like Ariza is a downgrade offensively on Artest for the Rockets.

Hes not having a good year, atleast not offensively and from what I gather about his health his defense may be slipping soon enough.

It isn't about Artest relative to other players, it's about Artest in LAL relative to Artest in HOU, his efficiency is up this year. I'd bet this is because a much higher percentage of his shot attempts are assisted and he's getting better looks. He does still force it too much, others his numbers would look even better compared to last season.

Battier isn't a minor offensive player and his contributions aren't inconsequential. Maybe this is my time to point out Battier is 47th in O-rating and 58th in eFG%, all-time. Now if I want to be even more controversial, Larry Bird was 50th and 92nd in those two categories.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 08:02 PM
For such a huge burden being taken off his workload this minimal gain in efficiency isnt going to propel the Lakers offense anywhere, I understand that wasnt what he was brought in for but in comparison to what they were getting from essentially the same position before its a drop off. And compared to other role players with minimal loads, Artest is among the least efficient.

If it wasnt for his D regaining some of its DPOY form the Lakers wouldve been F'd

You'll get no argument from me if you think the Lakers should have kept Ariza over Artest, I agree 100%. Artest has done a nice job though and when you have three offensive stars l tend to not really worry about Ron, as long as he continues to knock down the 3 and avoid forcing/turning over the ball.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 08:08 PM
It isn't about Artest relative to other players, it's about Artest in LAL relative to Artest in HOU, his efficiency is up this year.
So you think Artest losing 7-8% of his possession usage and returning an uptick of .03Pt per possession when you were already a low efficiency player qualifies as "good"? Your expectations are too low, I mean I could understand if Artest was already maxed out but hes always been a bum offensively. Artest relative to Ariza has been a downgrade, Artest relative to Artest in Houston is a disappointment, relative to the league at large in such a miniscule role, hes maddening.


I'd bet this is because a much higher percentage of his shot attempts are assisted and he's getting better looks. He does still force it too much, others his numbers would look even better compared to last season.
See heres the problem, the fact that hes still forcing it despite playing in a situation where he shouldnt have to is why I dont see him turning it around. He doesnt know how to be a role player, or find his shots within the offense, sure he could figure it out but until then hes costing the Lakers offensively. Not just because hes a dropoff on Ariza, but because hes a drop off on just about every good last option.


Battier isn't a minor offensive player and his contributions aren't inconsequential.
Your not following me, you were talking about a player role. Not his success, I agree Battier isnt a minor offensive player because hes so much better at his role, but his role is indeed small. Hes limited to spot ups and the occasion feed and dive.


Maybe this is my time to point out Battier is 47th in O-rating and 58th in eFG%, all-time. Now if I want to be even more controversial, Larry Bird was 50th and 92nd in those two categories.
Whats controversial about that?

Chronz
01-26-2010, 08:14 PM
You'll get no argument from me if you think the Lakers should have kept Ariza over Artest, I agree 100%. Artest has done a nice job though and when you have three offensive stars l tend to not really worry about Ron, as long as he continues to knock down the 3 and avoid forcing/turning over the ball.

So when is Artest going to stop turning it over and start making his free throws. One thing I do wonder about is how hes performed in the different lineups. How efficient is he when both Kobe and Pau are in the game. If hes like Ariza, Pau has a bigger influence on his perimeter game than Kobe, so the absence of Pau could be playing a role.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 08:18 PM
So you think Artest losing 7-8% of his possession usage and returning an uptick of .1Pt per possession when you were already a low efficiency player qualifies as "good"? Your expectations are too low, I mean I could understand if Artest was already maxed out but hes always been a bum offensively. Artest relative to Ariza has been a downgrade, Artest relative to Artest in Houston is a disappointment


See heres the problem, the fact that hes still forcing it despite playing in a situation where he shouldnt have to is why I dont see him turning it around. He doesnt know how to be a role player, sure he could figure it out but until then hes costing the Lakers offensively. Not just because hes a dropoff on Ariza, but because hes a drop off on just about every good last option.


I'd answer the first paragraph with the second part. I don't expect Ron Artest to settle into a smaller role without occasionally wanting to score or do something outside his defined role. Even when Dennis Rodman was on the Bulls he took threes and did some crazy **** just because he felt like it.



Your not following me, you were talking about a player role. Not his success, I agree Battier isnt a minor offensive player because hes so much better at his role, but his role is indeed small. Hes limited to spot ups and the occasion feed and dive.


Ok. I just think in a case like the Lakers, loaded with 3 great offensive players, that Artest's offensive role is significantly smaller than maybe any 30+ mpg player in the league.


Whats controversial about that?

People don't like numbers that indicate the counter-intuitive.

ChiSox219
01-26-2010, 08:22 PM
]So when is Artest going to stop turning it over and start making his free throws.[/B] One thing I do wonder about is how hes performed in the different lineups. How efficient is he when both Kobe and Pau are in the game. If hes like Ariza, Pau has a bigger influence on his perimeter game than Kobe, so the absence of Pau could be playing a role.

Probably won't ever stop, but maybe Phil gives him a book and Ron connects and he slows his roll a bit.

As for lineups, bballvalue has this lineup as the lakers best this season:

Artest, Ron - Brown, Shannon - Farmar, Jordan - Gasol, Pau - Odom, Lamar

It's slightly better than the same lineup with Kobe instead of Brown.

Wilson
01-26-2010, 08:25 PM
So when is Artest going to stop turning it over and start making his free throws. One thing I do wonder about is how hes performed in the different lineups. How efficient is he when both Kobe and Pau are in the game. If hes like Ariza, Pau has a bigger influence on his perimeter game than Kobe, so the absence of Pau could be playing a role.

That shouldn't really be an issue. During Pau's absence Kobe played much closer to the basket than in the past, meaning defenses were still drawn closer to the basket, leaving room for open shots on the perimeter.

Artest hasn't been everything we'd hoped for shooting wise, but I think it's important to note that he's had to adjust to the triangle, and has been dealing with injuries recently. There's still time for him to improve, although it is running out.

Lakersfan2483
01-26-2010, 08:32 PM
Artest is playing with a bad wheel right now, but he's still shooting the 3 ppoint shot at a high rate. Give him some time to get healthy.

thedfactor
01-26-2010, 08:40 PM
I think he just isn't a gifted offensive player. His 15 ppg was just a sweet bonus to his excellent hard nosed d. He can get streaky though and light it up still from time to time if he's getting enough shots.

silvTeg98
01-26-2010, 08:42 PM
hes injured plain and simple

JasonJohnHorn
01-26-2010, 09:13 PM
Artest is a solid defender and that is the focus of his game, as well as working the boards. He has historically had a low FG% and the Lakers knew this when they signed him. The only time he shot around 45% was when he was with the Kings. Ironcially he had more of the scoring load then.

With guys like Gasol and Bryant opening things up, Artest should idealy on;y be shooting when he is open, and in turn he should have a higher percentage this year. That has not always been the case and I think part of it is that he isn't getting the open looks that Trevor Ariza used to get because players pay more attention to Artest and aren't as quick to leave him to double team Gasol or Bryant.

I think many felt that keep Ariza would have been the best option for LA because he was a role player, where as Artest is used to being a 2nd or even a primary option (as he was with the Kings), and also because he is seen as being a loose canon. I think Artest though is a solid player and is making a positive contribution to the Lakers rotation though when the playoffs roll around, if he isn't hitting shots, he will be left open and defences will be allowed to pay more attention to Bryant and Gasol (much like when Rondo wasn't hitting the 20 footers in Boston's 08 playoff run and teams were falling behind the pick and leaving him open for hte jumper because he wasn't hitting them). This may make LA a little less effective on offense, but I'm not sure it matters because Artest is a fourth option. Bynum, Gasol and obviously Bryant have been getting the ball first and when Odom is on the floor he is getting the ball before Artest. Artest is there to play defence and work the boards and he is doing that, and the Lakers already have three guys that require double teams on the court.

Artest is making a solid contribution to the team, though I personally would have preferred to see both Artest and Ariza, or perhaps even just Ariza instead or Artest, this Lakers team is doing well and has the best record in their conference so its hard to argue that Artest isn't working out.

Raph12
01-26-2010, 09:18 PM
I like to go with other; he was never very good offensively and is not even that much of a threat on defense anymore.

vash9
01-26-2010, 09:20 PM
It's because he's not sipping Henessey at half-time!

kblo247
01-26-2010, 09:21 PM
Artest is shooting the 3 very well.

Artest rarely gets to post up now as the Lakers already have 5 guys who all play in the post ahead of him in Kobe/Pau/Drew/Lamar/Luke

His free throw shooting started poorly but it has been automatic ever since the first quarter of the season like he said he would (mental thing)

His defensive impact has been very good for LA and all though he has been slowed with PF in both feet and the concussion he has really given Kobe a break on that end that he hasn't been able to take since Fox retired.

His rebounding transferred and his assists are there.

Now simply put his FG% is where I expected it to be (Fox/Fisher) range as he gets the ball taken out of his hands and turned into a spot up guy or finisher with less attempts since he is a 4th option unlike in Houston, Indy, or Sac where he got to be the 2nd option.

I rather him make 4 or 5 out of 10 than 6 or 7 out of 15 with bad drives and over dribbling. He is just adapting and contrary to popular belief he didn't muk up the offense, Pau has by playing like a second center next to Drew which is why Phil has started using a Kobe pick and roll from the of the floor to clear out the paint the past 2 games as option A over the triangle.

I can't really grade him overall till the playoffs come, but I haven't been disappointed as he hasn't really gotten burned this year at all.

He and Melo both got taken out the game in different halves with foul trouble and Cleveland/Lebron didn't bet him as much as they exploited the fact Phil likes to switch pick and rolls between his 2-4s where as Rambis tilted the floor with a zone.

Trouble87
01-26-2010, 09:26 PM
too many attempts... he tries too hard and doesn't let the game come to him

Bruno
01-26-2010, 09:28 PM
His FG% is as low as it was in Houston because he is almost always on the perimeter. When Pau was out with injury, Kobe took his place playing in the mid post and Artest remained on the perimeter. He might be shooting a higher % if he got to play in the mid post, but thats not necessarily his game, and it wouldn't serve the Lakers strengths.

I've seen enough to think the Ariza/Artest swap was a mistake. Not only has he been inefficient, but his knees have looked weak all season, IMO. He seems to have no explosion, there have been times where he can barley dunk the ball, or will take a lay up without jumping. I think carrying around 250 pounds for so long has caught up with his knees, and it has effected every aspect of his game. People are saying he's injured, but I've noticed the same things all season long.

Why did the Lakers get Artest? To slow down James, Carmelo, and Paul Pierce. The Lakers havent played Boston yet, but James and Melo have torched Artest, and led their teams to victory over the Lakers.

I hope Ron Ron proves me wrong in the playoffs, but as of now, he doesn't seem to be physically capable of doing the job he was brought in to do.

kblo247
01-26-2010, 09:47 PM
His FG% is as low as it was in Houston because he is almost always on the perimeter. When Pau was out with injury, Kobe took his place playing in the mid post and Artest remained on the perimeter. He might be shooting a higher % if he got to play in the mid post, but thats not necessarily his game, and it wouldn't serve the Lakers strengths.

I've seen enough to think the Ariza/Artest swap was a mistake. Not only has he been inefficient, but his knees have looked weak all season, IMO. He seems to have no explosion, there have been times where he can barley dunk the ball, or will take a lay up without jumping. I think carrying around 250 pounds for so long has caught up with his knees, and it has effected every aspect of his game. People are saying he's injured, but I've noticed the same things all season long.

Why did the Lakers get Artest? To slow down James, Carmelo, and Paul Pierce. The Lakers havent played Boston yet, but James and Melo have torched Artest, and led their teams to victory over the Lakers.

I hope Ron Ron proves me wrong in the playoffs, but as of now, he doesn't seem to be physically capable of doing the job he was brought in to do.
Ariza was more inefficent and a worse 3 point shooter last year, and this year Ron shoots better from 3 than Ariza does from the field.

What can you show (video) from the Denver and Cleveland games to prove your point besides a boxscore?

Ron played in the first half while Melo sat and Ron sat in the second half while Melo played because they got one another into quick foul trouble./

In the 2 Cavs games you will only find 2 collective times where Ron gets beat by Lebron. Both times he went for a steal and in the first game he got, and in the second Lebron got the cup for his missed gamble.

The Cavs ran pick and roll with Lebron everytime to make Lamar or Pau switch out to defend James since Phil has always loved to switch it. This isn't the same defense that LA ran last year with Rambis being in charge of it and they let Kobe shadow Lebron while playing a zone behind him.

Really watch the game!

Tell me how has Durant, Johnson, Hedo, Hill, Carter, Redd, Scola, or any of those guys done this year against Ron?

Plus contrary to popular belief Ariza put too much stress on Kobe. Ginobili had his way with him last year. Deron toyed with him as well as CP3 so Fish had to stick with them. Wade lit him up for 14 points in 3 minutes when Kobe tried to take a break from defending him. Pierce had to be covered by Luke and Kobe. Kobe had to battle Melo last year in the playoffs.

His biggest asset was the fact that he could gamble very well on steals and really bother Tony Parker. He wasn't an amazing 6th man as he disappeared completely when Odom went to the starting group with the rest of the bench which is why Walton asked to switch roles.

Ron's lift problems are 2 fold:
- LA's strength coach admittedly asked him to add more muscle so he is heavier than he has ever been
- He has plantar fascitis in both feet and that has made even Kobe and Duncan look bad in the past

Verbal Christ
01-26-2010, 09:50 PM
how do you guys like the 'one dribble to the left chuck' that he was so famous for, or the slow-motion attempt at a drive through the paint? the guy is probably legally insane, he takes the worst shots at the worst times, seldom uses his size in the post and when the ball gets to him, it usally stops there. luckily he has a guy like kobe who can take over a game and reign him in somewhat. im glad artest is not a rocket, not so glad ariza is sucking drippy balls right about now. but a short and sweet answer to the OP would be simply the guy is in decline, he doesnt have the lateral movement or quickness to blow by defenders so he's relying on his jumpshot.

kblo247
01-26-2010, 09:54 PM
how do you guys like the 'one dribble to the left chuck' that he was so famous for, or the slow-motion attempt at a drive through the paint? the guy is probably legally insane, he takes the worst shots at the worst times, luckily he has a guy like kobe who can take over a game and reign him in somewhat. im glad artest is not a rocket, not so glad ariza is sucking drippy balls right about now.

He doesn't take bad shots that often and the one dribble chuck hasn't made its way to town. In fact he is too unselfish at times with his open 3 ball looks since he is the best shooter. He tends to try and draw a little too much contact at time on his drives though.

Since we are on the subject, how do you like:
- Ariza's shooting
- Ariza's ball handling
- Ariza's one on one defense
- Ariza's tendency to tell yell at others for mistakes

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-26-2010, 10:43 PM
he should only take threes, when he drives to the paint he gets blocked or loses the ball 9 times out of 10

but he's hell of a defensive player

last year LA was mediocre defensive team, but this year we are the best according to opposite team FG% and 3PT FG%

Pau for Geico
01-26-2010, 11:07 PM
The more & more you say "Pick an excuse!" and "Defend the Lakers!"

Makes me think that you are just a Laker hater and you made this thread to show it w/o really saying it :rolleyes:

Bruno
01-26-2010, 11:41 PM
Ariza was more inefficent and a worse 3 point shooter last year, and this year Ron shoots better from 3 than Ariza does from the field.

What can you show (video) from the Denver and Cleveland games to prove your point besides a boxscore?

Ron played in the first half while Melo sat and Ron sat in the second half while Melo played because they got one another into quick foul trouble./

In the 2 Cavs games you will only find 2 collective times where Ron gets beat by Lebron. Both times he went for a steal and in the first game he got, and in the second Lebron got the cup for his missed gamble.

The Cavs ran pick and roll with Lebron everytime to make Lamar or Pau switch out to defend James since Phil has always loved to switch it. This isn't the same defense that LA ran last year with Rambis being in charge of it and they let Kobe shadow Lebron while playing a zone behind him.

Really watch the game!

Tell me how has Durant, Johnson, Hedo, Hill, Carter, Redd, Scola, or any of those guys done this year against Ron?

Plus contrary to popular belief Ariza put too much stress on Kobe. Ginobili had his way with him last year. Deron toyed with him as well as CP3 so Fish had to stick with them. Wade lit him up for 14 points in 3 minutes when Kobe tried to take a break from defending him. Pierce had to be covered by Luke and Kobe. Kobe had to battle Melo last year in the playoffs.

His biggest asset was the fact that he could gamble very well on steals and really bother Tony Parker. He wasn't an amazing 6th man as he disappeared completely when Odom went to the starting group with the rest of the bench which is why Walton asked to switch roles.

Ron's lift problems are 2 fold:
- LA's strength coach admittedly asked him to add more muscle so he is heavier than he has ever been
- He has plantar fascitis in both feet and that has made even Kobe and Duncan look bad in the past

No, Ariza shot a better % from 3 last year as a Laker, than he is this year as a Rocket. Ariza is shooting a horrible % in Houston, but thats because defenses are paying more attention to him. Last year as a Laker he shot 46% from the field, higher than Artest is this year at 42%. Ariza has a higher efficiency rating according to NBA.com this year as a Rocket (despite his horrible %) than Artest is as a Laker. Last year as a Laker Ariza posted a PER of 15.6, this year Ron has a PER of 12.8. This year Artest has a win-share of 3.0. Last year Ariza posted a win share of 6.1 (double Artest). I was referring to more than just % when I mentioned efficiency, I should have been more clear/used a different word.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/artesro01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arizatr01.html

Artest is shooting a higher 3 point % than Ariza is this year, and has proven to be a better 3 point shooter for his career, no doubt. But don't be so quick to forget how clutch Ariza was from beyond the arc during our title run last year. Over those 23 playoff games he shot 47.6% from three and 50% overall from the field. I would be shocked if Artest came anywhere close to those numbers come playoffs this year. Again, I hope he makes me eat my words.

I'm not going to search the internet for hours to show you footage of Artest getting burned by LeBron, nor would I know where to even find that kind of extensive game footage. If you want to completely ignore the box score, thats on you, but it speaks pretty loudly, IMO.

Wether you like it or not, Artest has to take some of the blame for LeBron torching the Lakers this year. Last year the Lakers swept the Cavs 2-0, this year it has been the exact opposite (LeBron shot 14-45, 31% from the floor and averaged 19.5 ppg against the Lakers last year when we swept them). When you say LeBron only burned Artest twice, are you implying that 33 of his 37 points came against Lakers other than Artest? Even if those points were against the "big" on the switch like you said, LeBron has averaged over 10 assists per game against the Lakers this year- maybe that implies that Artest has been consistently late on the switch, and has failed to contribute to effective team defense.

You're right about Carmelo, he did score a lot of those points when Artest was on the bench. But if Artest can't guard Melo without fouling him, that's a problem. He can't play good D if he isn't on the floor or is always in foul trouble. I'm anxious to see how he does against Melo from here out.

Why mention Hedo or Redd in this argument? Not only have they both sucked all season long, the Lakers will never play either of those teams in the finals. Durant has put up his average 2 out of the 3 times the Thunder have played the Lakers. Artest shut him down the other game, I remember that. Joe Johnson put up well above his average when the Hawks played the Lakers, he specifically torched Artest and didn't cool off until Kobe switched onto him. I'd like to think Scola will be matched up against one of our bigs, not Artest. Vince and Hill were no doubt shut down.

I totally disagree with the statement, "Ariza put too much stress on Kobe". Ariza had the exact opposite effect. His ability to guard the other teams best player allowed Kobe to concentrate on offense, it also helped Bryant to finish out the season strong, having enough gas left in the tank through June. If you even listen to Bryant talk about Ariza in interviews, he says the exact opposite of what you said.

Yeah, Kobe played against Melo at times during last years WCF, but Ariza guarded him for the vast majority of the series, including here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzzywDHeprk
in the 4th quarter with under a minute to play. Kobe and Phil both trusted Ariza to guard Melo there at a key time in the game, don't cut him short. Give Ariza his due, he played well against Melo last year in the playoffs.

Ariza wasn't nearly as effective on the bench as he was as a starter, thats why he was moved into the starting line up. He killed as a started for us in the playoffs.

From one Laker fan to another, before you tell someone to "Watch the game!" you should recognize that two different people can interpret what they see on the television differently, and can have two different opinions despite having watched the exact same thing. Cheers.

td0tsfinest
01-27-2010, 12:20 AM
I've never thought of Ron Artest as an offensive player. And I'm sure it wasn't the reason why the Lakers brought him in.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 12:28 AM
i usually dont like to post from my phone cuz i have a limited plan but bruno just made this thread his *****

kblo247
01-27-2010, 12:55 AM
No, Ariza shot a better % from 3 last year as a Laker, than he is this year as a Rocket. Ariza is shooting a horrible % in Houston, but thats because defenses are paying more attention to him. Last year as a Laker he shot 46% from the field, higher than Artest is this year at 42%. Ariza has a higher efficiency rating according to NBA.com this year as a Rocket (despite his horrible %) than Artest is as a Laker. Last year as a Laker Ariza posted a PER of 15.6, this year Ron has a PER of 12.8. This year Artest has a win-share of 3.0. Last year Ariza posted a win share of 6.1 (double Artest). I was referring to more than just % when I mentioned efficiency, I should have been more clear/used a different word.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/artesro01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arizatr01.html

Artest is shooting a higher 3 point % than Ariza is this year, and has proven to be a better 3 point shooter for his career, no doubt. But don't be so quick to forget how clutch Ariza was from beyond the arc during our title run last year. Over those 23 playoff games he shot 47.6% from three and 50% overall from the field. I would be shocked if Artest came anywhere close to those numbers come playoffs this year. Again, I hope he makes me eat my words.

I'm not going to search the internet for hours to show you footage of Artest getting burned by LeBron, nor would I know where to even find that kind of extensive game footage. If you want to completely ignore the box score, thats on you, but it speaks pretty loudly, IMO.

Wether you like it or not, Artest has to take some of the blame for LeBron torching the Lakers this year. Last year the Lakers swept the Cavs 2-0, this year it has been the exact opposite (LeBron shot 14-45, 31% from the floor and averaged 19.5 ppg against the Lakers last year when we swept them). When you say LeBron only burned Artest twice, are you implying that 33 of his 37 points came against Lakers other than Artest? Even if those points were against the "big" on the switch like you said, LeBron has averaged over 10 assists per game against the Lakers this year- maybe that implies that Artest has been consistently late on the switch, and has failed to contribute to effective team defense.

You're right about Carmelo, he did score a lot of those points when Artest was on the bench. But if Artest can't guard Melo without fouling him, that's a problem. He can't play good D if he isn't on the floor or is always in foul trouble. I'm anxious to see how he does against Melo from here out.

Why mention Hedo or Redd in this argument? Not only have they both sucked all season long, the Lakers will never play either of those teams in the finals. Durant has put up his average 2 out of the 3 times the Thunder have played the Lakers. Artest shut him down the other game, I remember that. Joe Johnson put up well above his average when the Hawks played the Lakers, he specifically torched Artest and didn't cool off until Kobe switched onto him. I'd like to think Scola will be matched up against one of our bigs, not Artest. Vince and Hill were no doubt shut down.

I totally disagree with the statement, "Ariza put too much stress on Kobe". Ariza had the exact opposite effect. His ability to guard the other teams best player allowed Kobe to concentrate on offense, it also helped Bryant to finish out the season strong, having enough gas left in the tank through June. If you even listen to Bryant talk about Ariza in interviews, he says the exact opposite of what you said.

Yeah, Kobe played against Melo at times during last years WCF, but Ariza guarded him for the vast majority of the series, including here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzzywDHeprk
in the 4th quarter with under a minute to play. Kobe and Phil both trusted Ariza to guard Melo there at a key time in the game, don't cut him short. Give Ariza his due, he played well against Melo last year in the playoffs.

Ariza wasn't nearly as effective on the bench as he was as a starter, thats why he was moved into the starting line up. He killed as a started for us in the playoffs.

From one Laker fan to another, before you tell someone to "Watch the game!" you should recognize that two different people can interpret what they see on the television differently, and can have two different opinions despite having watched the exact same thing. Cheers.

Artest didn't come up with the scheme that burned the Lakers the year before last as well when Luke and Lamar made the constant switch and got them swept.

The foul trouble goes both ways as Melo basically couldn't touch Ron in the 1st quarter without a whistle and then in the 3rd quarter the refs flipped the script and called Ron for playing the same way.

You remember wrong about Joe Johnson as he started hot early because Kobe kept leaving him and then Ron locked him up completely. Ron has guarded Scola this year while Lamar has gotten Trevor besides in the game they lost to Houston mainly to negate his post up play.

Trevor did make Kobe's life easier hawking speedy quick guards with his length but he didn't help against anyone with moves. Lebron, Kobe guarded him. Wade, Kobe guarded him. Manu, Kobe had to guard him. Melo, Kobe had to guard him. Phil had to pull Ariza versus Boston last year because he couldn't handle Pierce, and in the game 1 versus Houston last year Ron ate him alive which forced Kobe and Luke to take him.

He isn't a good lockdown defender. He is a great team defender, reads passing lanes well, and uses his length superbly.

Yes, Phil did let Trevor pressure Melo's catch there, but can you honestly tell me that Trevor defended Melo one on one better than Kobe did in that series or Luke did in the 08 playoffs?

Trevor did have a better FG% because of his dunking to balance his 3pt ball, and he was a killer starter but lets not act like he wasn't moved to the starting group to optimize the team as a whole. He and the bench sucked without Odom whereas Walton put in his usual 10/5/5 as a starter. They moved Luke and Luke moved himself because he knew Trevor would play better with that group and that he could bring some structure to the bench and be their best LO-lite player.

I love Trevor for what he did here, but at the end of the day it isn't like he was or is a better player than Ron and it isn't even fair to compare a guy who is in his first 3 months of playing in the triangle to a guy who basically had a year to sit down and be taught it before running it since no perimeter player has ever just got it right off the bat.

Let me ask you this, would you feel comfortable relying on Trevor this year as the sole SF since Luke missed the majority of the year, knowing that Pau has missed half of it, and that the Lakers have only had a full rotation for 5 games or would you rather have a proven and versatile veteran in Ron Artest to help fill those voids?

Also remember those voids would be far bigger when you answer that question with Trevor on this team as keeping Ariza costs you Odom definitely and possibly Brown as Mitch has stated because he and his agent demanded more money from LA (more than Lamar makes) than he asked for to be the man in Houston ;)

PLAYERS FAN
01-27-2010, 01:16 AM
I remember when the Lakers signed Ron Artest, Laker's fans were saying the reason why Ron shot a low percentage (40.1%) was because he was asked to take so much of the scoring load and was forced to jack-up shots and that he was going to shoot WAY better with the Lakers (namely Kobe Bryant). Well, so far this year he is only shooting 42% from FG and 65.1% FT (he even shot slightly better from 3 in Houston and made more of them too) and went from scoring 17.1 a game last year to 11.5 a game this year.

So the possible Laker explanation is going to be, "Well he's not getting as many shots so he's shooting at a low percentage."

Which is it? Does he shoot a low FG percentage this year because he doesn't get as many shots? If yes, then why did he shoot a low FG percentage last year?

What do you think?

He just a streaky shooter Baphomet I mean Pentagram:D

ldc62
01-27-2010, 01:27 AM
Its not like the guy they got rid of (Ariza) is shooting any better. Plus Artest gives better Defensive efforts.

kblo247
01-27-2010, 01:40 AM
Its not like the guy they got rid of (Ariza) is shooting any better. Plus Artest gives better Defensive efforts.

That and Ariza's asking price means no Odom.

I'd take Odom over Ariza every day of the week, let alone Odom and Artest.

Can you imagine where LA would be if they caved to Ariza's 8mil a year asking price and let LO walk to Miami?

Powell would be starting half the year and DJ would be the only back up big :cry:

Lost Art
01-27-2010, 01:43 AM
Pretty much every shot he takes is a 3, so of course his FG% isn't going to be great

Lakersfan2483
01-27-2010, 01:50 AM
Artest is limited right now due to suffering from plantar fascitis and you can tell it's affecting him a great deal as he has a difficult time moving laterally. It will be better to judge him when he's healthy.

Lakersfan2483
01-27-2010, 01:52 AM
Pretty much every shot he takes is a 3, so of course his FG% isn't going to be great

Either a 3 or posting up as he's not very mobile right now.

Bruno
01-27-2010, 01:57 AM
Artest didn't come up with the scheme that burned the Lakers the year before last as well when Luke and Lamar made the constant switch and got them swept.

The foul trouble goes both ways as Melo basically couldn't touch Ron in the 1st quarter without a whistle and then in the 3rd quarter the refs flipped the script and called Ron for playing the same way.

You remember wrong about Joe Johnson as he started hot early because Kobe kept leaving him and then Ron locked him up completely. Ron has guarded Scola this year while Lamar has gotten Trevor besides in the game they lost to Houston mainly to negate his post up play.

Trevor did make Kobe's life easier hawking speedy quick guards with his length but he didn't help against anyone with moves. Lebron, Kobe guarded him. Wade, Kobe guarded him. Manu, Kobe had to guard him. Melo, Kobe had to guard him. Phil had to pull Ariza versus Boston last year because he couldn't handle Pierce, and in the game 1 versus Houston last year Ron ate him alive which forced Kobe and Luke to take him.

He isn't a good lockdown defender. He is a great team defender, reads passing lanes well, and uses his length superbly.

Yes, Phil did let Trevor pressure Melo's catch there, but can you honestly tell me that Trevor defended Melo one on one better than Kobe did in that series or Luke did in the 08 playoffs?

Trevor did have a better FG% because of his dunking to balance his 3pt ball, and he was a killer starter but lets not act like he wasn't moved to the starting group to optimize the team as a whole. He and the bench sucked without Odom whereas Walton put in his usual 10/5/5 as a starter. They moved Luke and Luke moved himself because he knew Trevor would play better with that group and that he could bring some structure to the bench and be their best LO-lite player.

I love Trevor for what he did here, but at the end of the day it isn't like he was or is a better player than Ron and it isn't even fair to compare a guy who is in his first 3 months of playing in the triangle to a guy who basically had a year to sit down and be taught it before running it since no perimeter player has ever just got it right off the bat.

Let me ask you this, would you feel comfortable relying on Trevor this year as the sole SF since Luke missed the majority of the year, knowing that Pau has missed half of it, and that the Lakers have only had a full rotation for 5 games or would you rather have a proven and versatile veteran in Ron Artest to help fill those voids?

Also remember those voids would be far bigger when you answer that question with Trevor on this team as keeping Ariza costs you Odom definitely and possibly Brown as Mitch has stated because he and his agent demanded more money from LA (more than Lamar makes) than he asked for to be the man in Houston ;)

Fair enough, we've only seen half a season. Honestly I'm just worried because there have been times throughout this season where Artest looks like he can barley jump.

I would be comfortable having Ariza as our SF this year over Artest. He proved himself to all of us last playoffs. He is an NBA champion, I'd consider him a veteran who has come up big in the past.

You're right, Ariza messed up by not accepting the original deal, but I do miss him on the Lakers and wish it could have been worked out. Also, are you sure about that Joe Johnson thing? I remember him burning some one then getting shut out after dropping 20 like it was nothing. I thought it was Artest getting burned, maybe it was Kobe.

It pisses me off knowing if not for the Vujacic, Walton or Vlad-Rad (Morrison) contracts we could have had Ariza and Artest. If any one of those three contracts werent signed, we could have afforded both.

My biggest gripe about the Artest/Ariza thing is the age difference. It's a big deal. What if Artest has a serious drop off? We'll have to wait and see.

Bruno
01-27-2010, 01:59 AM
That and Ariza's asking price means no Odom.

I'd take Odom over Ariza every day of the week, let alone Odom and Artest.

Can you imagine where LA would be if they caved to Ariza's 8mil a year asking price and let LO walk to Miami?

Powell would be starting half the year and DJ would be the only back up big :cry:

If the Lakers waited after shutting down Arizas initial request, instead of dropping him immediately for Artest, I think Ariza and his douch agent would have recognized he wasnt getting any more than the MLE. I think if given the time Ariza would have accepted the MLE and stayed with the Lakers, allowing us the $ to still resign Lamar. We'll never know.

kblo247
01-27-2010, 02:06 AM
His agent had it out for LA because Bynum made him take less. He was also Sasha's agent that threatened that Sasha would go to Europe before Sasha fired him and signed with Kobe's to stay. He just had it out to get LA and Trevor should have been ready to man up and step in from day one and say I want to stay.

Plus, I feel LA did the right thing when Trevor asked for that much for only a hot period. George burned them like that years ago and Rad did as well.

Walton got paid less than the MLE for being the third best player and the teaming performing drastically better two straight years with him than without him as the starting SF.

If they waited for Trevor and he still decided to not come Artest, Marion, and all the other good SFs could be gone. Assuming that they made a deal with Odom and Brown, they would be where they were in 08 with Walton starting and Kobe playing a lot at SF next to Shannon and Sasha.

Also, I get that the age difference is a reason for why you feel the way you do, but don't forget about Ariza's bone deficiency that caused his foot to break in the first place and the fact that it can happen again.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 03:12 PM
I think you guys are making too much of the triangle, it didnt take a year for Ariza to come in and contribute, he fit like a glove from day 1. He just got injured for the playoffs.

And I dont know what you dont like about Arizas man 2 man, its not as good as the way he plays the passing lanes (I refuse to say Ariza gambles, gamblers are guys who constantly put pressure on his teams defense with their constant mistakes, Artest is much more of a gambler than Ariza), but hes still a very good 1 on 1 defender.

Artest is better at bodying people up obviously, but at this point Im starting to think Ariza might be better at sticking on bigger wings. Yes hes a twig but if you guys havent noticed, length+athleticism+quickness is more important than beefiness, I mean Quinton Ross absolutely locked down on stars one year with us, and he just gave Melo fits, all 190 pounds of him.

kblo247
01-27-2010, 04:25 PM
I think you guys are making too much of the triangle, it didnt take a year for Ariza to come in and contribute, he fit like a glove from day 1. He just got injured for the playoffs.

And I dont know what you dont like about Arizas man 2 man, its not as good as the way he plays the passing lanes (I refuse to say Ariza gambles, gamblers are guys who constantly put pressure on his teams defense with their constant mistakes, Artest is much more of a gambler than Ariza), but hes still a very good 1 on 1 defender.

Artest is better at bodying people up obviously, but at this point Im starting to think Ariza might be better at sticking on bigger wings. Yes hes a twig but if you guys havent noticed, length+athleticism+quickness is more important than beefiness, I mean Quinton Ross absolutely locked down on stars one year with us, and he just gave Melo fits, all 190 pounds of him.

Ariza was asked to finish when he got here. Ron was given the ball and told run the offense to start the year with Kobe in the post. There are big differences in being asked to finish (Pau and Trevor) and being asked to execute it (Lamar in 06, Payton, Kobe in 00, Pippen in 90).

Ariza bit too much when he faced guys with actual moves. The game San Antonio won Manu had him dancing like a yo-yo, and versus Miami Wade killed him with isos not pick and rolls. His other weakness was his strength like when he played Boston last year and Walton had to bang with Pierce. Paul and Deron (pre-Shannon) went at him much harder than they went at Fisher.

Ariza's biggest weakness is that he doesn't eat his pre-game meal (Stu Lantz) b4 facing the best perimeter players and got beat by them more so because of the fact that they could get him to bite or overpower him.

He was great to have for Tony Parker, Vince, Hedo, Joe Johnson, and those guys but it was a select group of Deron, Paul, Melo, Pierce, Lebron, Manu, and Wade that really went after him because of his youth and inexperience than they did with Kobe, Luke, or Fish guarding them respectively.

He very well could have improved on that, but I don't think people get what a difference it will make for Kobe to be the secondary defender all season as opposed to part of it when the playoffs roll around.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 08:14 PM
Ariza was asked to finish when he got here. Ron was given the ball and told run the offense to start the year with Kobe in the post. There are big differences in being asked to finish (Pau and Trevor) and being asked to execute it (Lamar in 06, Payton, Kobe in 00, Pippen in 90). Tell me whats the difference between being asked to run the triangle and finish? Im pretty sure they go hand in hand.

Either way its kind of my point, you cant ask Artest to "finish" or find shots within the offense. Hes not much of an instinctive player off the ball. But really it just sounds like excuses to me, basketball isnt that hard to figure out.


Ariza bit too much when he faced guys with actual moves. The game San Antonio won Manu had him dancing like a yo-yo, and versus Miami Wade killed him with isos not pick and rolls. His other weakness was his strength like when he played Boston last year and Walton had to bang with Pierce. Paul and Deron (pre-Shannon) went at him much harder than they went at Fisher.
Ariza what abit too much? If you were going to say gamble then he doesnt gamble anywhere near as much as Artest, with him its actually a main weapon because he cant stay in front of players anymore so hed rather pressure and then try to strip them from behind. His quick hands make it work, but Ariza gets alot of stls without exposing the drive and converts those steals into buckets.

I love how he hounded Deron, you couldnt ask Artest to go guard someone like that. Still Artest is the better defender, as of now, I just feel Arizas man 2 man is underrated.



Ariza's biggest weakness is that he doesn't eat his pre-game meal (Stu Lantz) b4 facing the best perimeter players and got beat by them more so because of the fact that they could get him to bite or overpower him.
Yea I know what they say, Im just saying hes still a good man 2 man defender. I dont recall Bron over powering him though.


He was great to have for Tony Parker, Vince, Hedo, Joe Johnson, and those guys but it was a select group of Deron, Paul, Melo, Pierce, Lebron, Manu, and Wade that really went after him because of his youth and inexperience than they did with Kobe, Luke, or Fish guarding them respectively.

He very well could have improved on that, but I don't think people get what a difference it will make for Kobe to be the secondary defender all season as opposed to part of it when the playoffs roll around.
Your probably right, we'll see what the Lakers do come playoff time, they are much better defensively and it gos against my philosophy to not attribute much of that to Artest. So even though Ive tried, I cant convince myself that Ariza is just as good on D. But hes not that far off and people overstate the lack of physicality.

Also I thought Ariza did well against Melo, people just focus on the moments where Melo tore it up.