PDA

View Full Version : Carmelo Anthony... Short Arms?



Pentagram
01-26-2010, 05:55 PM
Do you think Carmelo Anthony rebounds (6.5 rpg this season, 6.2 rpg career) are low, average, or above average being 6'8 230 lbs and incredibly athletic?

If you think Anthony is a horrible rebounder, why do you think he can't average at least 7, especially playing with Kenyon Martin (6'9 240 lbs) and Nene (6'10 250 lbs)?

thedfactor
01-26-2010, 06:03 PM
Just average. He really does sits in the middle. He doesn't excel nor does he only get like 3 per

kEviN21
01-26-2010, 06:08 PM
Because he has Nene, Martin, and Anderson.

Gators123
01-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Average.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 06:23 PM
Because he has Nene, Martin, and Anderson.

Exactly, they are 1 and 2 inches taller than him yet significantly out-rebound him.

Jason Kidd averaged 6.1 rpg last year and he had Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, AND Erick Dampier rebounding. I don't get your reasoning...

jmastert
01-26-2010, 06:36 PM
Exactly, they are 1 and 2 inches taller than him yet significantly out-rebound him.

Jason Kidd averaged 6.1 rpg last year and he had Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, AND Erick Dampier rebounding. I don't get your reasoning...

Thank you thats because, Kidd is one of the best if not the best rebounding point guard of all time.

6.5 Rebounds is solid for a sf....average

DenButsu
01-26-2010, 06:42 PM
Exactly, they are 1 and 2 inches taller than him yet significantly out-rebound him.

Jason Kidd averaged 6.1 rpg last year and he had Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, AND Erick Dampier rebounding. I don't get your reasoning...

Then let me explain it to you. A couple of points:

1) Last season K-Mart averaged 6 rpg, Nene averaged 7.8, and Melo averaged 6.8. This season, respectively, they're averaging 9, 8.3 and 6.5, for a net gain of 3.7 per game, which much more than offsets Melo's drop of 0.3. If anybody on the Nuggets really needs to improve his rebounding, it's Nene (Melo actually outrebounds him on the offensive glass), and the guards (no Nuggets guard currently averages 3 or more rebounds, and Karl has started going more and more with smaller, Billups+Lawson lineups).

2) George Karl wants Melo to leak out a lot so the Nuggets can get out on the fast break, put pressure on opposing defenses, and get easy points. Obviously this means that Melo spends more time lagging in the paint to battle for rebounds than other SFs do. But does the reward of leaking out outweigh the cost in rebounding? Hm. Melo is the leading scorer in the NBA, the Nuggets have the 2nd most efficient offense in the league (behind Phoenix), and are just 3 games back behind the Lakers at the 2nd seed of the Western Conference. So I'll go way out on a limb and say "Yes."

GodsSon
01-26-2010, 06:49 PM
laziness? when i think of Carmelo I think of a slightly better scoring Glenn Robinson...while they both give/gave so much in the scoring department, other aspects of their games just leaves you wanting more

AIMelo=KillaDUO
01-26-2010, 06:50 PM
I think he's a below average rebounder... (I'ma huge Melo fan) But, I think that's because of the type of ball Denver plays, when the offense takes a shot and Melo is on defense, he leaks, hoping for easy fast-break points therefor he doesn't crash the boards as agressivly on the densive end.

I'm sure DenButsu can find you his offensive rebounding numbers. And as we all know Melo has improved his D imensley but, he still takes more pride on the offensive end of the floor, and Melo is an above-average offensive rebounder, when he attacks the rim and get's blocked or misses the layup or dunk attempt, he's back up there grabbin the rebound 1, 2, or even 3 times.

So the defensive end it's understandable that he's a below average defensive rebounder in my opinion, because of the system he's in as well as players he plays around, the Bird, Nene, and Kenyon who are all agressive defensive rebounders.

kEviN21
01-26-2010, 06:55 PM
Exactly, they are 1 and 2 inches taller than him yet significantly out-rebound him.

Jason Kidd averaged 6.1 rpg last year and he had Josh Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, AND Erick Dampier rebounding. I don't get your reasoning...


I don't get YOUR reasoning. They are taking rebounds away from him. Plus 6 is pretty good.

Kidd has always averaged a lot of rebound just because of the way he plays, it has nothing to do with the average rebounders Dampier, Howard and Dirk.

DenButsu
01-26-2010, 06:55 PM
Also, if anyone on the Nuggets has "short arms", it's Ty Lawson (http://rushthecourt.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/obama-unc-1.jpg).

Trouble87
01-26-2010, 06:56 PM
average rebounder for his size and keep in mind its not his role to rebound...

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:01 PM
Then let me explain it to you. A couple of points:

1) Last season K-Mart averaged 6 rpg, Nene averaged 7.8, and Melo averaged 6.8. This season, respectively, they're averaging 9, 8.3 and 6.5, for a net gain of 3.7 per game, which much more than offsets Melo's drop of 0.3. If anybody on the Nuggets really needs to improve his rebounding, it's Nene (Melo actually outrebounds him on the offensive glass), and the guards (no Nuggets guard currently averages 3 or more rebounds, and Karl has started going more and more with smaller, Billups+Lawson lineups).

2) George Karl wants Melo to leak out a lot so the Nuggets can get out on the fast break, put pressure on opposing defenses, and get easy points. Obviously this means that Melo spends more time lagging in the paint to battle for rebounds than other SFs do. But does the reward of leaking out outweigh the cost in rebounding? Hm. Melo is the leading scorer in the NBA, the Nuggets have the 2nd most efficient offense in the league (behind Phoenix), and are just 3 games back behind the Lakers at the 2nd seed of the Western Conference. So I'll go way out on a limb and say "Yes."

I am actually an Anthony fan. Here is the thing. If people are going to say he is a top 5-8 player in the NBA he needs to play like one. He has great box score stats, even his career 6.1 rpg is decent, but not for someone with this much talent and hype.

You talked about how he would leak out so his rebounding numbers are low and said "yes" leaking out early and not rebounding out-ways the bad.

If you or anyone is going to say Melo in the same breath as LeBron James, you have to be able to do some things (doesn't have to be all) better than James. James leaks out in games too, he also happens have a season average of 7.2 rpg and 7.0 rpg career average (which I think James, if he wanted to, could easily get 8 a game if he committed to rebounding). The only thing Melo does better than James is shoot better from the line (and yes, James now averages more ppg). For this reason, how can Melo even be in the MVP conversation? LeBron shoots better FG%, makes more 3s, blocks more, steals more, rebounds more, gets more assists, and scores more points.

There isn't any excuse, that I've read so far, that alleviates Melo's mediocre rpg.

BkOriginalOne
01-26-2010, 07:02 PM
He's average, but should be crashing the boards more. He does get a lot of offensive boards off of his own missed shots, thought.

Nene and Kmart average about 20rpg btwn the two of them.
That's plenty considering melo throws in 6.

He will get more boards if he spends more time at the 4.

DenButsu
01-26-2010, 07:14 PM
I am actually an Anthony fan. Here is the thing. If people are going to say he is a top 5-8 player in the NBA he needs to play like one. He has great box score stats, even his career 6.1 rpg is decent, but not for someone with this much talent and hype.

You talked about how he would leak out so his rebounding numbers are low and said "yes" leaking out early and not rebounding out-ways the bad.

If you or anyone is going to say Melo in the same breath as LeBron James, you have to be able to do some things (doesn't have to be all) better than James. James leaks out in games too, he also happens have a season average of 7.2 rpg and 7.0 rpg career average (which I think James, if he wanted to, could easily get 8 a game if he committed to rebounding). The only thing Melo does better than James is shoot better from the line (and yes, James now averages more ppg).

There isn't any excuse, that I've read so far, that alleviates Melo's mediocre rpg.

Pace:
Nuggets (5th in the league) 97.9
Cavs (28th in the league) 93.1

It is completely ridiculous to say that because "James leaks out in games too" occasionally, that Melo should have more boards. Their teams play completely different styles of ball, and they play completely different roles on their team. In Cleveland, James has to be both Billups and Melo (both the teams's floor leader and performance leader) - Melo has the luxury of not having to "do it all" in the same sense. And Cleveland, by definition, is not the fast breaking team that Denver is. Leaking out is not just something that Melo "does sometimes". It's a definitive characteristic of the Nuggets offense. It's their modus operandi. And actually, that doesn't just apply to Melo. There has hardly been a Nuggets game I've watched, which was called by non-Nuggets announcers, in which they didn't make a remark along the lines of "Man, those Nuggets bigs can really run the floor well." Running is the primary method of attack of the Nuggets offense. Put pressure on defenses, get behind them, make them run, wear them down.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:15 PM
Also, if anyone on the Nuggets has "short arms", it's Ty Lawson (http://rushthecourt.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/obama-unc-1.jpg).

I don't know... Billups JUST broke 3 rpg average this season at 32+ minutes a game. 10 fewer minutes and .8 fewer rebounds... not sure, they both suck at rebounding. lol

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:20 PM
Pace:
Nuggets (5th in the league) 97.9
Cavs (28th in the league) 93.1

It is completely ridiculous to say that because "James leaks out in games too" occasionally, that Melo should have more boards. Their teams play completely different styles of ball, and they play completely different roles on their team. In Cleveland, James has to be both Billups and Melo (both the teams's floor leader and performance leader) - Melo has the luxury of not having to "do it all" in the same sense. And Cleveland, by definition, is not the fast breaking team that Denver is. Leaking out is not just something that Melo "does sometimes". It's a definitive characteristic of the Nuggets offense. It's their modus operandi. And actually, that doesn't just apply to Melo. There has hardly been a Nuggets game I've watched, which was called by non-Nuggets announcers, in which they didn't make a remark along the lines of "Man, those Nuggets bigs can really run the floor well." Running is the primary method of attack of the Nuggets offense. Put pressure on defenses, get behind them, make them run, wear them down.

I totally agree with what you're saying. Denver is a much faster paced team. I love Dirk Nowitzki, but he sucks *** at rebounding (7.9 rpg) in comparison to Tim Duncan (10.7 rpg). Not only does Duncan get 2.8 rpg more, but the Spurs are a MUUUUCH slower pace team than the Mavericks, so that 10.7 should really be magnified considering the lack of rebounding opportunities.

Having said that, switch LeBron James with Carmelo Anthony and James would average about 8 a game with more opportunities. Wouldn't it make sense that with a faster pace there will be more rebounding opportunities thus, more rebounds for the players on the team?

I merely chose rebounding because I believe Melo could average 8 (just as I think if James wanted to he could) WHILE still being able to leak out in the fast break frequently.

DenButsu
01-26-2010, 07:23 PM
I totally agree with what you're saying. Denver is a much faster paced team. I love Dirk Nowitzki, but he sucks *** at rebounding (7.9 rpg) in comparison to Tim Duncan (10.7 rpg). Not only does Duncan get 2.8 rpg more, but the Spurs are a MUUUUCH slower pace team than the Mavericks, so that 10.7 should really be magnified considering the lack of rebounding opportunities.

Having said that, switch LeBron James with Carmelo Anthony and James would average about 8 a game with more opportunities. Wouldn't it make sense that with a faster pace there will be more rebounding opportunities thus, more rebounds for the players on the team?

Switch LBJ with Melo, and if LBJ listens to his coach and takes his instructions, then he won't have "more opportunities" because he'll be leaking out just as much as Melo is now, he won't be hanging around in the paint trying to box out.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:27 PM
Switch LBJ with Melo, and if LBJ listens to his coach and takes his instructions, then he won't have "more opportunities" because he'll be leaking out just as much as Melo is now, he won't be hanging around in the paint trying to box out.

You're still not understanding that Denver has more rebounding opportunities for the reasons you gave in your response above...

Faster pace = more shots = more missed shots = more rebounding opportunities

UNLESS Melo was the only Nugget to leak out, then you have a point. But he isn't the only one, just ask your guards.

Also, Melo actually said the opposite of what you're saying. I remember he said he was going to focus on getting more defensive boards last season and this season. Unless the coach told him to leak out and not secure the defensive boards (which I don't think Carl ordered) it has nothing to do with the coaching but with the offensive machine Melo is. It's no secret he cares more about scoring than getting boards, just look at his 2nd highest full season scoring average... 4.9 rpg in 80 games.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:38 PM
Then let me explain it to you. A couple of points:

1) Last season K-Mart averaged 6 rpg, Nene averaged 7.8, and Melo averaged 6.8. This season, respectively, they're averaging 9, 8.3 and 6.5, for a net gain of 3.7 per game, which much more than offsets Melo's drop of 0.3. If anybody on the Nuggets really needs to improve his rebounding, it's Nene (Melo actually outrebounds him on the offensive glass), and the guards (no Nuggets guard currently averages 3 or more rebounds, and Karl has started going more and more with smaller, Billups+Lawson lineups).

2) George Karl wants Melo to leak out a lot so the Nuggets can get out on the fast break, put pressure on opposing defenses, and get easy points. Obviously this means that Melo spends more time lagging in the paint to battle for rebounds than other SFs do. But does the reward of leaking out outweigh the cost in rebounding? Hm. Melo is the leading scorer in the NBA, the Nuggets have the 2nd most efficient offense in the league (behind Phoenix), and are just 3 games back behind the Lakers at the 2nd seed of the Western Conference. So I'll go way out on a limb and say "Yes."
Seems like the exact opposite of your evaluations on Melo from last year.

Arent you happier with Melo producing like a star, last year it seemed like you were content with his offensive game slipping so long as he crashed the glass and payed more attention defensively.

But your bigs have definitely improved their rebounding, I think that has more of a factor than anything, though your team still isnt very good at it.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 07:40 PM
Because he has Nene, Martin, and Anderson.
None of which are really dominant rebounders, but yes their uptick has somewhat effected his rebounding. Still doesnt change the fact that hes not a GREAT rebounder. I dont know if its lack of length but Melo's rebounding is fine.

Pentagram
01-26-2010, 07:42 PM
Seems like the exact opposite of your evaluations on Melo from last year.

Arent you happier with Melo producing like a star, last year it seemed like you were content with his offensive game slipping so long as he crashed the glass and payed more attention defensively.

But your bigs have definitely improved their rebounding, I think that has more of a factor than anything, though your team still isnt very good at it.

It was what Melo wanted to do specifically too.

Chronz
01-26-2010, 08:00 PM
It was what Melo wanted to do specifically too.

Hey Im all for it, hes a much better player this way (if thats really been the difference) but honestly defensive rebounding isnt even as important as offensive rebounding(where Melo is a beast) so Im perfectly satisfied with his development on the glass. That said, there are far better defensive rebounding SF's its an aspect Melo could stand to improve its not as bad as Nene and K-Mart were, even moreso the year before.

cmellofan15
01-26-2010, 08:31 PM
We shoot top 10 in FG% and average 2nd most in PPG so no that doesn't mean more missed shots to rebound off of.

DenButsu
01-26-2010, 11:28 PM
Seems like the exact opposite of your evaluations on Melo from last year.

Arent you happier with Melo producing like a star, last year it seemed like you were content with his offensive game slipping so long as he crashed the glass and payed more attention defensively.

But your bigs have definitely improved their rebounding, I think that has more of a factor than anything, though your team still isnt very good at it.

I can understand why you say that it seems to be the opposite. But my reasoning is different in this case. Last season he was starting from a very different starting point. The Nuggets had just been decimated by the Lakers in the playoffs, and Melo had just had his DUI. Those aren't necessarily related, but the offcourt incident seemed to reflect a lack of growth and maturity. On the court, that had expressed itself in a kind of one-dimensionality as a player. He neglected his defensive assignments, was lazy in rotating and screening. He was too shot-happy with the ball, and failed to find open cutters and 3-shooters. And his effort on the glass - when he was in a position to pull down boards - was insufficient.

I don't think the value of two things can be emphasized enough 1) - his experience on the U.S. Olympic team (particularly in regard to soaking in the ethos of Kobe's work ethic, and to deferring an offensive leadership role to others while playing as a defensive role player), and 2) -the coming of Billups to the Nuggets (which really accelerated his maturation and level of seriousness). Those two things were exactly the medicine that Melo needed at that point in his career. And the development he needed to do at that time was almost purely mental - he had to shift his entire paradigm, his entire approach to the game. So yeah, at that time, I was elated to see him (finally) battling harder for rebounds, (finally) looking to pass the ball better and more frequently, (finally) taking a charge here, diving for a loose ball there, (finally) willfully taking on some of the tougher defensive assignments, and playing hard on that end. And at the time if focusing on all those things meant a dropoff in his scoring, it seemed well worth it to me because his overall development as a player - where that would result in him ending up - would be well worth it. And I think ultimately his performance in the postseason bore that out.

But this season, that's the point he was already starting from, is the point a year later. He needed to spend last season rebuilding his approach, retooling his mentality, in order to become a more complete, multi-dimensional player, and to grow into a better team leader. And his offense took a hit because of that. But I think this season is all about integration, trying to reclaim that offensive juggernaut we saw from him in the fall before the brawl, while also retaining that "more complete player"-ness he worked on developing last season. He's probably still got progress to make in terms of really feeling comfortable in balancing it all out. And I think also with Afflalo and Lawson essentially replacing Jones and Carter, the whole team has shifted in a more offense-oriented direction, which of course is the most naturally comfortable direction for Melo to take things.

So basically, yeah, I'm ecstatic about his production this season. But I also was perfectly happy last season with it dropping off, because I felt that the ultimate reward that would come via his improvement as a player would ultimately be worth it.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-26-2010, 11:33 PM
Because he has Nene, Martin, and Anderson.

What about kobe then, he has pau(11rpg), bynum(9rpg) and odom(10rpg)??

DenButsu
01-26-2010, 11:46 PM
What about kobe then, he has pau(11rpg), bynum(9rpg) and odom(10rpg)??

...and Kobe has the 19th best rebound rate among NBA shooting guards.

...and Melo has the 19th best rebound rate among NBA small forwards.

ldc62
01-27-2010, 01:37 AM
He doesn't focus all his energy on D. I'm not knocking his abilities but rebounding requires some effort.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 03:34 AM
I can understand why you say that it seems to be the opposite. But my reasoning is different in this case. Last season he was starting from a very different starting point.....


All fine dont get me wrong its well worth the trouble if this is how he evolved. Just saying him reverting back to his glory days scoring was really the only way he was going to reach his potential. Im just wondering why his offensive game HAD to take a hit for it to happen.

jetsfan28
01-27-2010, 03:43 AM
Then let me explain it to you. A couple of points:

1) Last season K-Mart averaged 6 rpg, Nene averaged 7.8, and Melo averaged 6.8. This season, respectively, they're averaging 9, 8.3 and 6.5, for a net gain of 3.7 per game, which much more than offsets Melo's drop of 0.3. If anybody on the Nuggets really needs to improve his rebounding, it's Nene (Melo actually outrebounds him on the offensive glass), and the guards (no Nuggets guard currently averages 3 or more rebounds, and Karl has started going more and more with smaller, Billups+Lawson lineups).

2) George Karl wants Melo to leak out a lot so the Nuggets can get out on the fast break, put pressure on opposing defenses, and get easy points. Obviously this means that Melo spends more time lagging in the paint to battle for rebounds than other SFs do. But does the reward of leaking out outweigh the cost in rebounding? Hm. Melo is the leading scorer in the NBA, the Nuggets have the 2nd most efficient offense in the league (behind Phoenix), and are just 3 games back behind the Lakers at the 2nd seed of the Western Conference. So I'll go way out on a limb and say "Yes."

This. Melo basically creates some fast break points and easy shots on a team that runs most of its offense from the half court. It's not his job to defensive rebound. His actual rebounding acumen can be seen on the offensive glass, where he actually rebounds quite well. He's a very good rebounder who simply isn't asked to rebound.

DenButsu
01-27-2010, 04:12 AM
All fine dont get me wrong its well worth the trouble if this is how he evolved. Just saying him reverting back to his glory days scoring was really the only way he was going to reach his potential. Im just wondering why his offensive game HAD to take a hit for it to happen.

Yeah, I'm not totally sure about that. I would guess it's a combination of (at least) 2 things, though: 1) Just not being able to spin that many plates at the same time. Turning his focus to defense and rebounding maybe meant he simply couldn't expend the same focus and energy on the other end. 2) Just readjusting to the new dynamics of the team suddenly having Camby and AI replaced by Nene and Billups. It might seem counterintuitive that Melo's offense would drop off after someone who dominates the ball as much as AI did left the team, but on the other hand Melo then had, for pretty much the first time in his career, legitimate offensive threats on "both sides" of him (at the 1 and at the 5) in the starting lineup. Finding/maintaining his own niche offensively while also working within a system that had both more inside and outside shooting presence, and also more halfcourt sets, may have just taken him some getting used to.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
01-27-2010, 12:44 PM
Den would be dissin everybody. :D

clehmun
01-27-2010, 01:59 PM
i don't get this thread. people sound like lebron's the superior rebounder to carmelo when lebron averages 0.7 rebounds more than him while playing more minutes.

sure lebron averages a little more, but how is that a huge difference?
shaq and Z are no longer good rebounders, varejao is the only guy taking boards away from lebron.
while carmelo has above average rebounders on his team.

if theres anything melo needs to improve on, its his play making for his teammates. he only averages 3.3 assists per game.

Pentagram
01-27-2010, 04:08 PM
What about kobe then, he has pau(11rpg), bynum(9rpg) and odom(10rpg)??

I think Kobe is a better rebounder for his position than Melo is for his position (don't just use this years stats, look at career stats). I think Kobe's rebounding is unappreciated because of all the billion other things he does well.

Bottom line, this year Melo is mediocre on the boards but for his career average he is below-average.

DenButsu
01-27-2010, 07:44 PM
Den would be dissin everybody. :D

Nah, I don't want to dis anybody. Actually I think the Nuggets are a somewhat strangely designed and operated team that can be hard even for their own fans to understand, especially if you just try to go off the stat sheet. Like just as one example, someone might look at the dip in Melo's rebounding numbers as a sign he's playing less aggressively, but then at the same time he's getting to the free throw line 10.0 times a game, well above his career average of 7.9, and actually although his rebounding has taken a dip from last season, his rpg of 6.5 is actually slightly higher than his career high of 6.2. And if you watch Nuggets games and focus on Melo and what he's doing regarding the glass, while he's often not in position to pull down a board because he's not near the basket (and actually isn't supposed to be much of the time), when he's actually in a good rebounding position he'll battle as hard as anybody on the team, and is probably better at boxing out than Nene and Birdman. So at this point in his career, he's putting in a great effort wherever he happens to be on the court, but he can't be everyplace at once.