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View Full Version : Can we call the Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter acquisitions a set back?



fairandbalanced
01-25-2010, 10:12 PM
At this point, both the Spurs and Magic look worse than last season. The acquisition of Jefferson and Carter was supposed to put the spurs and magic above the rest but so far, things are not going as planned. Are you ready to call those acquisitions a bust?

Shahrose
01-25-2010, 10:25 PM
from your point, its like saying that if the MAgic dont make it to the finals with Vince, as they did last year with Hedo, then it was a bust =/

and i dont follow the spurs, but arent they playing really well lately?

but for me, i dont think its a bust.

Jays Claw
01-25-2010, 10:26 PM
The Spurs brought in Richard Jefferson so they could win another championship. And the same could be said for Vince Carter and the Magic. However, in my opinion, it isn't fair as of yet to call them flops. If the Spurs once again get eliminated in the first round, then you could call the Richard Jefferson experiment a flop. If the Magic don't reach the NBA finals, then you could call the Vince Carter experiment a flop.

_KB24_
01-25-2010, 10:44 PM
The Carter deal was not to shabby. It will payoff down the road in the playoffs. The Richardson deal was good, but extremely overrated. I laughed when people said that this brought the Spurs to "whole new level". They are the fourth best team in the West. LA, Dallas, and Denver are all better.

shep33
01-25-2010, 10:45 PM
The VC idea wasn't great to begin with. What was wrong with Hedo? You make the finals, and Hedo leads your team in scoring during the finals!! Wow. The guy caused so many matchup problems for everybody, plus he seemed to get the ball to D12 a lot, not like the wings on this team. Spurs are a different story, they're old, so putting it on Jefferson isn't the answer. The Spurs reign IMO is officially over, I can't see them staying with teams like Denver, or LA in the west.

runforrestrunx9
01-25-2010, 10:59 PM
The VC idea wasn't great to begin with. What was wrong with Hedo? You make the finals, and Hedo leads your team in scoring during the finals!! Wow. The guy caused so many matchup problems for everybody, plus he seemed to get the ball to D12 a lot, not like the wings on this team. Spurs are a different story, they're old, so putting it on Jefferson isn't the answer. The Spurs reign IMO is officially over, I can't see them staying with teams like Denver, or LA in the west.

yea i think this is pretty accurate

mlisica19
01-25-2010, 11:02 PM
Well magic is worse because their a shooting team and you let go of Hedo and brought in someone who is older and losing his talent. Too be honest i love getting rid of him, even though the nets are worse I didnt want him in our future plans

Spurs are always filled with injuries, their best players are getting older if they were not old enough.

Im mad the Nets got rid of Jefferson but too be honest im over it... Even though they suck this year thats cuz there defense sucks, and players are injured every week. They should just call the rest of the year a practice to get better on fundamentals and other things... Get the top 3 picks, hopefully #1 with that amazing player. Then be prepared for a long off season... Alot of moves, hopefully we send a decent offer to Lebron James just for giggles and a chance. Then Throw alot of money toward Dwayne Wade who would fit perfectly into our system. Get a SF, Josh Smith? Any of those ATlanta High flyers ill take. Heck theres alot of talent and skill outthere... Lets get anyone and anybody who can fit into the system

heyman321
01-25-2010, 11:13 PM
The Spurs are not doing bad cause of Jefferson, simply because they're getting older. The Magic are worse directly because of Vince Carter.

JDizzle
01-25-2010, 11:13 PM
.. I dont see how there setbacks??? what do you want them to both be the best teams in the league lets see what happens in the playoffs

td0tsfinest
01-25-2010, 11:14 PM
Both teams brought in both guys to win a championship. As far as I know both teams are in a playoff spot and will no doubt make the playoffs. It's from there on in we can decide if the trades were a bust.

Kakaroach
01-25-2010, 11:43 PM
Lets wait until they have a full season and the playoffs together. Then we will decide if they set back both teams.

0nekhmer
01-26-2010, 12:06 AM
I really think the Magics should have kept Turk, and more importantly, C. Lee. Lee is still young, and he played very well for them last year. I never understand why some teams make huge changes after getting to the finals. Unless your adding a piece to your team then it's never smart to change a good thing.

Joshtd1
01-26-2010, 12:20 AM
Not sure abouit the Magic, but RJ isnt even being used properly. Why bring in a known SCORER, to be a defensive player. Yes, in several articles Pop has said that is why they brought RJ in.

RJ would be just fine if we could get him the ball more..cough cough Parker. This team is being coached terribly also. If Pop would make better coaching decisions, this team could easily be much better, and have won several of the close games they lost.

thedfactor
01-26-2010, 12:23 AM
I think the Carter add for the Magic has been worse off than the RJ to the Spurs. The Spurs are still pretty decent in comparison to last year. The Magic look no where close to the team that made the Finals last season with Lee and Turk. They had better chemistry and were more fun to watch. Carter hasn't made them better like they thought.

Melo4Mvp
01-26-2010, 12:36 AM
The Vince Carter trade was bad 4 the magic because the main reason Orlando even made the finals is because of the matchup problems hedo caused and Vince doesn't have the size to create those same problems that hedo did

jimbobjarree
01-26-2010, 12:55 AM
its a bit harsh to say if the Magic dont get to the finals the Vince Carter thing is a fail, cus unlike the Spurs, they lost a big part of their team in Hedo over the summer for nothing. Carter was filling a big gap while RJ was an addition to push the Spurs over the edge. RJ has been a flop and as Josh keeps telling me, isnt being coached correctly whilst Carter is trying to replace a big member of the finals team for the Magic with his different style of play.

Kabowdos
01-26-2010, 02:07 AM
At this point, both the Spurs and Magic look worse than last season. The acquisition of Jefferson and Carter was supposed to put the spurs and magic above the rest but so far, things are not going as planned. Are you ready to call those acquisitions a bust?

I don't think either are bust. You can actually say the same thing about the Artest and Shaq pick up, because both teams look like they won't have a better record than last year. Maybe even the Celtics too.

The only thing that is a bust, is your thread.

vash9
01-26-2010, 02:46 AM
let's just wait for the playoffs. i'm a big fan of Carter, and as i recall, a non-injured VC, regardless of age, always catches fire during the playoffs.

as for RJ..uhh...let him dunk it. just once.

Raph12
01-26-2010, 02:49 AM
Give it time, I think both will pay dividends when it matters, in the playoffs.

BradyIsTheMan12
01-26-2010, 02:50 AM
Too early to tell, I don't think that Jefferson takes away from the Spurs I just think the Spurs are too old overall

JayW_1023
01-26-2010, 09:22 AM
Jefferson hasn't been an upgrade so far, especially on defense. I part of me wishes Bruce Bowen picks up his sneakers...he may be 39 but i bet he would still be an elite defender if he chose to unretire.

The Spurs D is SOFT now. The fact that Parker foot problems diminishes his effectiveness during penetrations doesn't help matters. Which leave Duncan to carry the Spurs once more.

TheWatcher34
01-26-2010, 09:48 AM
in my opinion VC wants to be the flashy player. i see him taking fadeaway threes. he's too much concerned with how he looks out there instead of trying to fit in with the team and make plays for other guys.
Turkoglu at many times drove to the Basket and continuously he put pressure on the defense. Carter settles for jumpshots. he has a bad field goal % and he doesnt get to the foul line. he takes away shots from Lewis and Jameer..shots which they had last year. with that being said, opponents can easily afford to double team Howard over too many stretches of the game.

JayW_1023
01-26-2010, 09:55 AM
in my opinion VC wants to be the flashy player. i see him taking fadeaway threes. he's too much concerned with how he looks out there instead of trying to fit in with the team and make plays for other guys.
Turkoglu at many times drove to the Basket and continuously he put pressure on the defense. Carter settles for jumpshots. he has a bad field goal % and he doesnt get to the foul line. he takes away shots from Lewis and Jameer..shots which they had last year. with that being said, opponents can easily afford to double team Howard over too many stretches of the game.

Well said...Vince Carter has always been suspect to physical defense. Last year I remember Bowen shutting him down completely in the fourth. I wish the guy would grow a backbone.

Looks like most casual hoop fans still have a hard-on from that dunk contest, in the sense they have proceeded to overrate Vince Carter horribly the rest of his career.

JayW_1023
01-26-2010, 09:59 AM
Oh yeah, lol at those calling Jefferson 'Richardson'. For fans too absorbed with their own teams situation, Jefferson has complete burned into obscurity...goes to show how low profile the Spurs remain.

As for Hedo, he has been better than Vince Carter for almost four years now. And now the results speak for themselves until this season...where Hedo has sacrificed his scoring to compliment Chris Bosh.

JasonJohnHorn
01-26-2010, 10:28 AM
Last season the Spurs had 50+ wins and got knocked out in the first round. Right now they are looking like contenders. I don't think Jefferson has impacted the team much, but he adds depth and gives them extra weapons. Their real weakness is at center. Blair is a great FORWARD, but he's only 6'7 and won't be able to bang with the centers, so starting him at center and putting him on 7 footers creates miss-matches. I think Blair shoudl stay in the rotation, but McDysse and Ratliff should be getting more minutes. Center is the Spurs weak spot, but they are a great team and can keep up with the best of the west. Jefferson is like the Finley addition, an all-star calbre player who adds depth to the team and gives them one more guy that can have a big night. Jefferson is a plus.

Carter is also an upgrade from Lee. What the Magic is missing is Turkaglu. Carter is an upgrade from Lee hands down. He is not a #1 option and hasn't been for some time, but he is a guy that can give you big games and diversify your offense and will create match-up issues for teams that focus too much on Lewis, Nelson or Howard. Missing a 6'10 small forward/play maker lessens the efficiency of the Magic offense. So if they take a step back this year it will be in part because of the loss or Turkaglu, not because of the addition or Carter, and also in part because they overachived last year. The 76ers and Garnett-less Celtics pushed the Magic to game 7 and they could have been out in the first round. The Magic had great match-ups against the Cavs which is why they won that series so easily, but other teams, like Boston, will give them a hard time.

Carter and Jefferson are helping their respective teams but their teams are missing things outside of what those players bring to the court.

todu82
01-26-2010, 11:09 AM
It's to early to tell but to be honest I had the Spurs at higher than 6th in the East at this point in the season.

#1Mavericksfan
01-26-2010, 11:28 AM
Last season the Spurs had 50+ wins and got knocked out in the first round. Right now they are looking like contenders. I don't think Jefferson has impacted the team much, but he adds depth and gives them extra weapons. Their real weakness is at center. Blair is a great FORWARD, but he's only 6'7 and won't be able to bang with the centers, so starting him at center and putting him on 7 footers creates miss-matches. I think Blair shoudl stay in the rotation, but McDysse and Ratliff should be getting more minutes. Center is the Spurs weak spot, but they are a great team and can keep up with the best of the west. Jefferson is like the Finley addition, an all-star calbre player who adds depth to the team and gives them one more guy that can have a big night. Jefferson is a plus.

Carter is also an upgrade from Lee. What the Magic is missing is Turkaglu. Carter is an upgrade from Lee hands down. He is not a #1 option and hasn't been for some time, but he is a guy that can give you big games and diversify your offense and will create match-up issues for teams that focus too much on Lewis, Nelson or Howard. Missing a 6'10 small forward/play maker lessens the efficiency of the Magic offense. So if they take a step back this year it will be in part because of the loss or Turkaglu, not because of the addition or Carter, and also in part because they overachived last year. The 76ers and Garnett-less Celtics pushed the Magic to game 7 and they could have been out in the first round. The Magic had great match-ups against the Cavs which is why they won that series so easily, but other teams, like Boston, will give them a hard time.

Carter and Jefferson are helping their respective teams but their teams are missing things outside of what those players bring to the court.

Are you looking at the same teams everybody else it looking at?....the Spurs are far from contenders with the way there playing....I mean the Memphis Grizzlies have a chance to past the Spurs in the West for crying out loud.

JordansBulls
01-26-2010, 12:19 PM
At this point, both the Spurs and Magic look worse than last season. The acquisition of Jefferson and Carter was supposed to put the spurs and magic above the rest but so far, things are not going as planned. Are you ready to call those acquisitions a bust?

You won't know this until the playoffs.

koreancabbage
01-26-2010, 11:50 PM
You won't know this until the playoffs.

when the rotation shortens up and game is on the line, i believe these players will step up their game. More so for RJ than Carter



But so far, both seem lost in their respective teams. both do not have a specific role that they are inclined they like playing at.

Tony_Starks
01-27-2010, 12:10 AM
I think its still a bit early to say, especially since they've both had nagging injuries on and off so far. Jefferson has been pretty disappointing though.


As far as Orlando goes I said this summer that letting Hedo walk would be the biggest mistake they could make. No diss to Vince but Hedo was a better fit. That pick and roll/pick and pop with him and Lewis was damn near unstopable. Plus he could play a lil point-forward.

Vince's game will come around but even still I'd rather have the Michael Jordan of Turkey!!!

ManRam
01-27-2010, 12:12 AM
I think Jefferson has been fine. He doesn't need to be the #1 or #2 option. He's not holding the team back IMO. Come playoff time, he'll help.

Vince has been a setback. No doubt about it at all.

FOBolous
01-27-2010, 12:16 AM
i just want to make it known that i was one of the few people who didn't like the Hedo/VC trade and thought the trade made the magic worse :up:

ElMarroAfamado
01-27-2010, 01:14 AM
the Spurs have been done for a while and it was comical to me when people mentioned them in the same sentence as the Lakers just because of adding Richard Jefferson cmon now....
the Magic on the other hand could do without Vince in the regular season i think he will come up big in the playoffs...and the Magic still have what it takes to compete for the conference title..

Chronz
01-27-2010, 04:30 AM
I think Jefferson has been fine. He doesn't need to be the #1 or #2 option. He's not holding the team back IMO. Come playoff time, he'll help.

Vince has been a setback. No doubt about it at all.

At this point do you really think the Spurs would mine swapping, atleast Vince has the upside if you consider his injuries(if hes not done). RJ has been much healthier and is still struggling.

Both have been let downs, but in Vinces case it could be a result of decline, RJ seems too young to be in that phase of his career so its more of a disappointment, then again hes always relied on his athletic ability more than say Vince.


i just want to make it known that i was one of the few people who didn't like the Hedo/VC trade and thought the trade made the magic worse :up:

lmao, few? LOL everyone and their mom kept reiterating the fact that he caused so many matchup problems. Still nothing is set in stone just yet.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 04:33 AM
Oh yeah, lol at those calling Jefferson 'Richardson'. For fans too absorbed with their own teams situation, Jefferson has complete burned into obscurity...goes to show how low profile the Spurs remain.

As for Hedo, he has been better than Vince Carter for almost four years now. And now the results speak for themselves until this season...where Hedo has sacrificed his scoring to compliment Chris Bosh.

WOAH WOAH WOAH.......


WHAT!.i

Joshtd1
01-27-2010, 04:38 AM
At this point do you really think the Spurs would mine swapping, atleast Vince has the upside if you consider his injuries(if hes not done). RJ has been much healthier and is still struggling.

I think the Spurs would be better off with VC. Better playmaker/overall scorer then RJ, and plays better in the pick and roll...and that is alot of the Spurs offense.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 04:42 AM
I dont know why Vince isnt involved in more PnR with SVG. I dont know whos decision it was but something wasnt right when they acquired him and Stan said something to the effect of not wanting Vince to fit in but look to dominate. It would help explain why despite more offensive talent alongside him, VC's chucking more than he has in years. Thats really not something you want your 33+ year old doing. I can tell you right now, had JVG been running this team the offense would look alot different.

zambo4president
01-27-2010, 04:52 AM
I never thought these were great moves to begin with, Carter is so overrated it's not even funny.

cchrisc773
01-27-2010, 05:32 AM
I am a Magic fan, and I say no its not fair to say that. Carter came in to fill a role, however, the true problem with Orlando is Jameer Nelson looks terrible. Unlike last season before he went down he was having and ALL Star season. It's not all on Carter, other guys have to be held responsible too IMO.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 02:59 PM
Yea Jameers career is riddled with highs and lows, this tends to happen more with players who rely on their midrange games so extensively.

RadiantShot
01-27-2010, 03:08 PM
I really don't think you can call either team a bust unless they're just terrible. The Magic, nor the Spurs are 'horrible,' at this point. We are anything but that.

For the Magic :
Just because we've been struggling doesn't mean it's just Vince's fault. Remember, Hedo's gone, Vince just came in to take his role for a while. We also made new acquisitions, such as Brandon Bass, Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, and Jason Williams. I think we can't say anything yet, because our team really is vastly different from last year. Maybe last year's roster worked better together, team-work wise. The Orlando Magic are still an elite team, but everyone expected us to be Godly this year, and quite frankly, we're not. It's not a bad thing, because we still have a pretty good record, but I think everyone expected the Magic to go 65-17 or something crazy like that, but it won't happen. We were the underdogs last year, so it surprised a lot of people, now people EXPECT us to be a top-tier team, but they're expecting too much.

For the Spurs :
I'm not exactly sure what's going on with the spurs, but you have to remember, the Spurs gave up a big part of their defense in Bruce Bowen. Bruce was a good 3 point shooter as well. In my opinion, I wouldn't have traded Bruce, because he clicked with the whole San Antonio team, but you could make the same case for the Orlando Magic with Hedo. I just look at it from a different perspective. I think the Spurs WILL make the playoffs this year, but they won't get further then round 2. Neither will the Orlando Magic, if we don't shape up our game.

Just my speculation of the whole condition.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Last years Magic wouldnt have beaten a healthy C's team nor the revamped Cavs, so why are some of you holding it against Vince if the Magic dont get there again. Let me ask you guys this, how often does the team that lost the Finals, make it again by standing pat? Theres usually a reason why you lost, I still think the Magic shouldve kept Hedo AND Vince instead of Bass/Gortat. But Magic ownership didnt buy their success last year, they probably felt the only way to win a title was to go more conventional. If Vince gets his powers back, you guys will be asking Hedo who?

ballpd05
01-27-2010, 04:12 PM
Last years Magic wouldnt have beaten a healthy C's team nor the revamped Cavs, so why are some of you holding it against Vince if the Magic dont get there again. Let me ask you guys this, how often does the team that lost the Finals, make it again by standing pat? Theres usually a reason why you lost, I still think the Magic shouldve kept Hedo AND Vince instead of Bass/Gortat. But Magic ownership didnt buy their success last year, they probably felt the only way to win a title was to go more conventional. If Vince gets his powers back, you guys will be asking Hedo who?

Amen to this. The Magic were only in the finals because Kevin Garnett was out, and because Big Z was turned into Dwights chew toy. D12 won't be able to bully Shaq like he did Z, and KG, who can defend on the perimeter, would cause some problems for Rashard.

Vince is a better player overall than Turk, but I don't think he fits with the team as well. He is dominating the ball and taking a number of bad shots. Rashard Lewis is also frustrated at the number of touches that he gets because Vince isn't the passer Hedo was.

RJ is just the product of an aging and always hurt team. He is a better overall player than Bruce, but he is not superman. He gives the spurs another scorer.

Also you have to factor that the other teams made moves too. The Mavs are better because of Shawn Marion, Rasheed is a key addition to the Cs, Artest and the Lakers, the Grizzlies and Thunder are better, The Hawks are better... So there are a number of more teams to steal wins from these too.

RaiderLakersA's
01-27-2010, 05:00 PM
Both teams brought in both guys to win a championship. As far as I know both teams are in a playoff spot and will no doubt make the playoffs. It's from there on in we can decide if the trades were a bust.

I can agree with this. A "bust" would indicate that both teams have flat out tanked and won't make the playoffs. That's not the case at this point.

However, I see the OP's point. If the goal is to win the championship, anything short of that is a fail. Clearly both moves were designed to do just that...not to make the teams competitive or respectable, but to win a title.

On paper they were both solid, if not great, moves (although I, too, liked Hedo on the Magic for some reason; he seemed to play with fire). Let's see what happens.

anpmp
01-27-2010, 05:54 PM
Spurs have lost 5 of their last 6 games, and are soon going to start an 8-game road trip. They may end up fighting for a playoff spot along with the Thunder, Grizzlies, Rockets and Hornets.

Chronz
01-27-2010, 07:43 PM
Vince is a better player overall than Turk, but I don't think he fits with the team as well. He is dominating the ball and taking a number of bad shots. Rashard Lewis is also frustrated at the number of touches that he gets because Vince isn't the passer Hedo was.
Your only saying that because hes struggling or old, as early as last year he was a better passer and playmaker, I dont know why the team doesnt utilize him in this role. Hes either lost his abilities (Due to decline or injuries) or SVG wants him in a pure scoring role.


RJ is just the product of an aging and always hurt team. He is a better overall player than Bruce, but he is not superman. He gives the spurs another scorer.
The loss of Bowen happened 2 years ago, RJ is actually replacing Finley/Masons minutes. The reason the Spurs have dropped off is because of TP's decline, and RJ not living up to his potential. He gives the Spurs another scorer (in theory), but like Vince has failed to live up to the promise.


Also you have to factor that the other teams made moves too. The Mavs are better because of Shawn Marion, Rasheed is a key addition to the Cs, Artest and the Lakers, the Grizzlies and Thunder are better, The Hawks are better... So there are a number of more teams to steal wins from these too.

Yup everyone made moves to improve, some are panning out when people thought they wouldnt (Jamal Crawford), some are doing as well as can be expected (Shaq, Hedo), Sheed is starting to find his niche. But RJ and Vince are in their own world of letdown.

TheWatcher34
01-27-2010, 08:41 PM
when the rotation shortens up and game is on the line, i believe these players will step up their game. More so for RJ than Carter



But so far, both seem lost in their respective teams. both do not have a specific role that they are inclined they like playing at.

when the game is on the line in the playoffs i can see Carter demanding the ball. i can see Carter wanting to be the hero. his best show off days as a dunker are over now this is what he plays for.
i can see Carter ******** up big time, he's not as clutch as he thinks. Turkoglu was clutch.

blastmasta26
01-27-2010, 10:51 PM
Your only saying that because hes struggling or old, as early as last year he was a better passer and playmaker, I dont know why the team doesnt utilize him in this role. Hes either lost his abilities (Due to decline or injuries) or SVG wants him in a pure scoring role.


The loss of Bowen happened 2 years ago, RJ is actually replacing Finley/Masons minutes. The reason the Spurs have dropped off is because of TP's decline, and RJ not living up to his potential. He gives the Spurs another scorer (in theory), but like Vince has failed to live up to the promise.


Yup everyone made moves to improve, some are panning out when people thought they wouldnt (Jamal Crawford), some are doing as well as can be expected (Shaq, Hedo), Sheed is starting to find his niche. But RJ and Vince are in their own world of letdown.

I think that might be the reason. SVG would probably want Vince to focus more on scoring and less on playmaking like Turkoglu. Vince was setting up guys in NJ and he could definitely still do that with Dwight.