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View Full Version : Will Carter with Orlando be as bad as A.I with Denver?



Tha Truth
01-19-2010, 02:55 AM
When the Nuggets traded for A.I most fans believed that he would get them over the hump and that they would become an elite team. Iverson played for Denver for a season and a half and in that time period the Nuggets were eliminated from the playoffs in the first round two years straight. Obviously the Iverson experiment didn't work out and now Denver is a way better team with Billups running the team.

Now we have Vince Carter in his first year in Orlando and through the first half of the season it seems like they have taken a step back from last year.

After 41 games:

Last year: 33-8
This year: 26-15

Do people think that Vince will play better in the second half or the season or do people think that it will only get worse for Orlando?

Raph12
01-19-2010, 03:07 AM
I think the Magic team as a whole will play better late in the season, they still don't have that chemistry they need and everyone is shouting at SVG to get Dwight the ball and guess what... Dwight takes 12 FGs in the first half against LA tonight, making 9 while scoring 18 points using a bevy of offensive moves and then Stan resorts back to his chuck-a-shot gameplan in the second half.

When they play the inside-out game with Dwight, Carter digs deep and starts attacking the basket and everyone stops playing the chuck-a-contested-shot game, then and only then will the Magic be BETTER than they were last season.... The potential is there, but it will be upto them to play up to that level.

spreadeagle
01-19-2010, 03:23 AM
Matt Barnes is playing much better then Vince.See that game tonight? Can we trade back Turkoglu to magic.Seems like He fit well there,and they need him.Vince for Hedo lmao:D Honestly if Toronto fans didnt hate him so much I could see that goin down.Like when Ben Wallace went to Chicago just didnt fit

BigEric
01-19-2010, 04:00 AM
It really seems like Vince just isn't fitting in. Like Raph said, the potential is there.

Lakers4ItAll
01-19-2010, 04:02 AM
I think I'm the only person who thinks the Magic should have never made all those moves.

Tha Truth
01-19-2010, 04:13 AM
I think I'm the only person who thinks the Magic should have never made all those moves.

I can't lie on paper this team looks stacked,
and on paper they look like they got better,
and when I saw this team on paper I thought that they would be one of the best teams in the league.

Four of the Five starters have been/or are all-stars.

But like many have said and what is evident at this point in the season is this team lacks chemistry at the moment.

If they can gel at the right time which would be going into the playoffs (or anytime before that) then I think they will be able to have a deep playoff run.

Carter really needs to step up though 39% FG% is terrible.

I love Carter though.

Derick713
01-19-2010, 04:37 AM
The Magic were really a different team last season. Rafer Alston and Hedo Turkoglu played a huge part in the Magic getting to the NBA Finals. Rafer ran the team well and Hedo handled the team in the clutch.

No one can argue that the Magic has a more talented roster than last year. The problem is the new talent doesn't quite fit the system. Vince Carter and Brandon Bass aren't Rafer Alston and Hedo Turkoglu. Maybe the Magic need to be a half court team with Vince Carter. Maybe it would make more sense to put Rashard Lewis at SF and Brandon Bass at PF. Vince Carter isn’t the shooter Hedo Turkoglu is. Rafer knew when to get Dwight Howard touches and it seems like Nelson and Carter will take shots and not be patience.

There's a chance the Magic put it all together and make a run. After all the Magic didn’t have Lewis for the first 10 games and they are still integrating there new players.

Derick713
01-19-2010, 04:44 AM
Carter might be a better player than Turkoglu, but he doesn't do the things that Hedo did well for the Magic. Turkoglu has the size, length, shooting, and all around versatility to allow the Magic to create miss matches and play there style. Turkoglu didn't take very many bad shots and he was able to run the offense when needed. Turkoglu is a better shooter than Carter and he kept defenses honest.

Hedo Turkolgu was really an unselfish player for the Magic and he always had a better feel for the game than Vince Carter.

In truth Carter doesn’t feel comfortable being himself with the Magic. The Magic want him to be aggressive and yet he wants to defer at times. He just doesn’t have a good feel for the game and how he wants to approach teams.

I think teams worry about leaving Turkoglu open more so than Carter.

Derick713
01-19-2010, 04:48 AM
The Magic didn't need more offense. They need someone who can create more efficiency within the offense. They need someone who makes Howard and Lewis more dangerous. Carter just takes shots away from Lewis and makes the Magic less versatile. Carter makes the Magic less efficient and creates confusion as to who will carry the load on nights. He maybe bothering the rhythm of Nelson, Howard, and Lewis.

Raph12
01-19-2010, 05:19 AM
Carter might be a better player than Turkoglu, but he doesn't do the things that Hedo did well for the Magic. Turkoglu has the size, length, shooting, and all around versatility to allow the Magic to create miss matches and play there style. Turkoglu didn't take very many bad shots and he was able to run the offense when needed. Turkoglu is a better shooter than Carter and he kept defenses honest.

Hedo Turkolgu was really an unselfish player for the Magic and he always had a better feel for the game than Vince Carter.

In truth Carter doesn’t feel comfortable being himself with the Magic. The Magic want him to be aggressive and yet he wants to defer at times. He just doesn’t have a good feel for the game and how he wants to approach teams.

I think teams worry about leaving Turkoglu open more so than Carter.

Are you crazy?

Hedo Turkoglu was one of the worst shot-chuckers in the NBA, now maybe he was a better facilitator last season than Carter is now. But it took Hedo over 3 years to develop that chemistry with the team to become the facilitator he was. He would take horrible shots just like Carter and commit silly turnovers on a regular basis. He was the most inconsistent player the Magic had last season, you never knew which Hedo would show up. Btw he's not a better shooter, it's just that the defensive attention he gets is weaker.

If you don't believe me, go ask some Raptors fans how they feel about Turk's play so far this season. He's actually done a better job this season now that he's being less involved in the offense.


The Magic didn't need more offense. They need someone who can create more efficiency within the offense. They need someone who makes Howard and Lewis more dangerous. Carter just takes shots away from Lewis and makes the Magic less versatile. Carter makes the Magic less efficient and creates confusion as to who will carry the load on nights. He maybe bothering the rhythm of Nelson, Howard, and Lewis.

Now this is more like it... although I disagree with your notion of the Magic not needing to add more firepower at the 2, I do agree that they do need a facilitator to put all of the pieces together. In the Finals the Magic backcourt was single-handedly destroyed by Kobe, they need someone to make life difficult for LA in the backcourt.

The chemistry is not there on offense for this Magic team, they need everyone to stop chucking, Carter to be more of a facilitator, Lewis to attack more and Dwight to be more aggressive and demand the ball. Now these suggestions may sound simple enough, but don't be fooled, incorporating it into the actual game is a lot more difficult than it sounds.

illegallover
01-19-2010, 08:43 AM
Vince Carter is OLD and LAZY

way too many ill-advised jump shots..... can't finish anymore just give up.

kobebabe
01-19-2010, 09:06 AM
I would take Hedo any day anytime over carter...End of strory!

xxxplicit69
01-19-2010, 09:15 AM
When the Nuggets traded for A.I most fans believed that he would get them over the hump and that they would become an elite team. Iverson played for Denver for a season and a half and in that time period the Nuggets were eliminated from the playoffs in the first round two years straight. Obviously the Iverson experiment didn't work out and now Denver is a way better team with Billups running the team.

Now we have Vince Carter in his first year in Orlando and through the first half of the season it seems like they have taken a step back from last year.

After 41 games:

Last year: 33-8
This year: 26-15

Do people think that Vince will play better in the second half or the season or do people think that it will only get worse for Orlando?

:eyebrow::eyebrow: A.I. bad with denver right???


Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06/07 DEN 50 49 42.4 .454 .347 .759 0.3 2.7 3.0 7.2 1.8 0.2 4.04 1.48 24.8

07-08 DEN 82 82 41.8 .458 .345 .809 0.6 2.4 3.0 7.1 2.0 0.2 2.99 1.33 26.4

i believe he had a 50point gm with denver too. yeah i would definately say a.i. was bad in denver. denver was definately a better team before him......not

i think the morale of the team changed around the time billups got there. billups style is different from iverson's but i wouldnt say a.i. was failure in denver, especially when you just mentioned he was there for about 1 n half seasons. detroit was trying to get rid of chauncey just as much as den was with a.i. i felt that denver was more a street ball team with a.i. melo and JR, all of them taking most of the shots where billups does gives them more of a team basketball feel, but denver won 50gms for the first time in a long time with a.i., they just layed down to l.a. in the playoffs, but a.i. still played hard, melo was a different player then. the player he is now he would have been regardless of billups being there or not, this melo and a.i. with denver would still go far in the playoffs too.

i just dont like when ppl hate on a.i., he gets a bad rap that he doesnt deserve.

xxxplicit69
01-19-2010, 09:18 AM
also after 41gms, none of the top playoff tms last yr (den, LA, bos, orl, clev) are playing as well as they did last yr.

pebloemer
01-19-2010, 09:35 AM
Chemistry isn't quite there yet. I agree with Raph - this team has potential to be better and more versatile than the Magic team of last year.

That doesn't mean they'll get there.

But we saw last year's Magic team playing at its highest level in my opinion. We haven't seen that in this Magic team yet. It is just the regular season and I'm sure they'll still have home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs. We'll have to wait until then to see if mixing it up in Orlando paid off.

Tha Truth
01-19-2010, 09:40 AM
:eyebrow::eyebrow: A.I. bad with denver right???


Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06/07 DEN 50 49 42.4 .454 .347 .759 0.3 2.7 3.0 7.2 1.8 0.2 4.04 1.48 24.8

07-08 DEN 82 82 41.8 .458 .345 .809 0.6 2.4 3.0 7.1 2.0 0.2 2.99 1.33 26.4

i believe he had a 50point gm with denver too. yeah i would definately say a.i. was bad in denver. denver was definately a better team before him......not

i think the morale of the team changed around the time billups got there. billups style is different from iverson's but i wouldnt say a.i. was failure in denver, especially when you just mentioned he was there for about 1 n half seasons. detroit was trying to get rid of chauncey just as much as den was with a.i. i felt that denver was more a street ball team with a.i. melo and JR, all of them taking most of the shots where billups does gives them more of a team basketball feel, but denver won 50gms for the first time in a long time with a.i., they just layed down to l.a. in the playoffs, but a.i. still played hard, melo was a different player then. the player he is now he would have been regardless of billups being there or not, this melo and a.i. with denver would still go far in the playoffs too.

i just dont like when ppl hate on a.i., he gets a bad rap that he doesnt deserve.

I'm defintely not hating on A.I. I love the guy, he plays with the most heart and he's a warrior.

Mainly my point was that A.I getting traded to Denver was suppose to get them over the hump and their expectations were high. The fact that they were eliminated in the frist round 2 years straight meant they underachieved. And the reason that he was there only a year and a half was because it didn't work (maybe bad wasn't the best word to use) and you could tell A.I was interferring with Melos ability grow.

The reason I am comparing it to VC in Orlando because he was brought in for similar reasons. With Orlando getting Vince their expectations are higher and that expectation is a Championship (or a return to the Finals at least). Clearly at this point VC has struggled and the team is not looking as good as expected.

JasonJohnHorn
01-19-2010, 09:47 AM
I think the AI/Denver comparison is interesting but slightly flawed. When AI went to Denver he was on top of his game and with Carmelo entering the early years of his prime the two were the highest scoring duo in the league. Carter however has been on the downslope of his career since he left Toronto. Carter has never put up the kind of numbers that he put up as a Raptor, and his numbers in the first two seasons with New Jersey were comparable to his last to seasons as a Raptor, but the bottom line is that guy piqued at age 24 and has never played as good since. His last two seasons with the Nets were even lower than the first two, so picking up Carter was like Denver picking up AI. Carter is a quality starter and likely in a year or two will be coming off the becnh for somebody.

All the fans out there saying its a different team. You are spot on. I did like the trade for Carter, I thought that really made the team better, but they should have also re-signed Turkaglu. Turkaglu is a great play maker, solid scorer/shooter, and his size creates mismatches, most especially against the Cavs in the playoffs. I know it would have put the Magic's pay role among the highest in the league, but the bottom line is, if you want great team, you have to pay. The Lakers know all about that. I really think the Magic would have been an elite team and a clear cut favorite to win the east had the traded for Carter AND kept Hedu.

That said, the Magic still have one of the best coaches, one of the most dominate rebounders and interior defenders, a quick, some point guard, and some great wing players in Carter and Lewis and this team is capable of competing with the best in the league.

Still, how awesome would this team have been with Hedu and Carter? I'm sure they would have been able to pick up better talent with their mid-level exception.

Sly Guy
01-19-2010, 11:40 AM
and all the raps fans are chanting "I told you so!"

pebloemer
01-19-2010, 01:20 PM
and all the raps fans are chanting "I told you so!"

You could argue that so are the Orlando fans....

JordansBulls
01-19-2010, 06:04 PM
When the Nuggets traded for A.I most fans believed that he would get them over the hump and that they would become an elite team. Iverson played for Denver for a season and a half and in that time period the Nuggets were eliminated from the playoffs in the first round two years straight. Obviously the Iverson experiment didn't work out and now Denver is a way better team with Billups running the team.

Now we have Vince Carter in his first year in Orlando and through the first half of the season it seems like they have taken a step back from last year.

After 41 games:

Last year: 33-8
This year: 26-15

Do people think that Vince will play better in the second half or the season or do people think that it will only get worse for Orlando?


Every elite team this year has a worse record than last year at this point.

RaptorizedKevin
01-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Matt Barnes is playing much better then Vince.See that game tonight? Can we trade back Turkoglu to magic.Seems like He fit well there,and they need him.Vince for Hedo lmao:D Honestly if Toronto fans didnt hate him so much I could see that goin down.Like when Ben Wallace went to Chicago just didnt fit


yes yu guys can take hedo back. i'll welcome vc with open arms.

RaptorizedKevin
01-19-2010, 06:33 PM
Every elite team this year has a worse record than last year at this point.

and thats because, alot of otehr teams have been getting better. because they have a worse record than last year, its because other teeams ahve gotten alot better. like look at the :

Charolette bobcats
Okalamhoma city thunder
atlanta hawks
Mephis Grizzles
LA clippers

those guys are ballin. specially the thunder. i see them as a contender if durant resigns. if he doesnt, i suggest teams clear cap and atttract him there. hes going to continue superstar numbers fo YEARS to come.

RaptorizedKevin
01-19-2010, 06:35 PM
You could argue that so are the Orlando fans....

if they want turkoglu back, theyre taking marcus banks( salary cap

so

10.7 + 4.5 =15.2
and plus a trade exception we can get VC back

but idk if i want him back. hes taking around 20 shots to be effective, and hes pretty banged up.. so i dont want him..

if theres one person i want on the raptors.. i want stephen jackson. lockdown defender.

JayW_1023
01-19-2010, 06:43 PM
Vince Carter is a shell of his former self...The Magic would've been better off keeping Turkoglu and Courtney Lee.

Chronz
01-19-2010, 06:49 PM
I'm defintely not hating on A.I. I love the guy, he plays with the most heart and he's a warrior.

Mainly my point was that A.I getting traded to Denver was suppose to get them over the hump and their expectations were high. The fact that they were eliminated in the frist round 2 years straight meant they underachieved. And the reason that he was there only a year and a half was because it didn't work (maybe bad wasn't the best word to use) and you could tell A.I was interferring with Melos ability grow.

The reason I am comparing it to VC in Orlando because he was brought in for similar reasons. With Orlando getting Vince their expectations are higher and that expectation is a Championship (or a return to the Finals at least). Clearly at this point VC has struggled and the team is not looking as good as expected.
As they mentioned, the way Vince is playing this is the equivalent of Denver thinking they were getting that AI, only getting one at an advanced age. If you think they underachieved with AI playing great, imagine how it wouldve looked had they gotten the AI of now.

Chronz
01-19-2010, 06:51 PM
Vince Carter is a shell of his former self...The Magic would've been better off keeping Turkoglu and Courtney Lee.

Why not just keep Turk and add Vince? Vince is chucking alot, what if he was added just to play a secondary role similar to New Jersey? Or are you certain his lack of efficiency this year (around the basket particularly) is a sign of decline and totally not worth the investment anymore? One thing Im pretty confident on is that he'll turn around his 3pt shooting. I doubt thats all Orlando was looking for out of him when they got him.

ThuglifeJ
01-19-2010, 06:52 PM
well it's not Carter's fault the team has struggled. The team started 17-3 I believe running pick n roll through Carter while Nelson and Shard were switching off being out.

right now things are bad tho for the VC and the Magic.

love VC and hope things all turn around for the better. I really think they'll find what works soon. The whole team has been playing less than their potentials though, besides Matt Barnes/ J Will

dtmagnet
01-19-2010, 07:38 PM
Why not just keep Turk and add Vince? Vince is chucking alot, what if he was added just to play a secondary role similar to New Jersey? Or are you certain his lack of efficiency this year (around the basket particularly) is a sign of decline and totally not worth the investment anymore? One thing Im pretty confident on is that he'll turn around his 3pt shooting. I doubt thats all Orlando was looking for out of him when they got him.

I agree with you, I thought they still should have signed Turkoglu even after they got Carter. I don't mind too much since Toronto got Turk, even though he has yet to really fit in with our roster. I think maybe people thought that Howard is what made that team so good and didn't realize that Turkoglu was a bigger part than they thought.

albertc86
01-19-2010, 07:40 PM
Hedo was undeniably the better fit and even the commentators mention it about every time they talk about the Magic. Either way, they're still not winning the title.