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JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 03:31 PM
There are 30 Teams in the League, and out of those 30 teams, how many True Franchise Players Are There in the NBA?

Basically legit guys you can build teams around and be successful for a good while.

mser58
01-15-2010, 03:40 PM
Kobe
LeBron
Durant
Roy
Melo
Wade
Rose
Dwight
CP3

Mavrix
01-15-2010, 03:42 PM
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Nowitzki
Paul
Wade
D-Howard
Melo
Duncan
Bosh (maybe)
Roy
that's it

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-15-2010, 03:43 PM
Kobe
LeBron
Durant
Roy
Melo
Wade
Rose
Dwight
CP3

lol

dwadefan03
01-15-2010, 03:44 PM
how did i know that everyone was going to forget DWILL

RadiantShot
01-15-2010, 03:46 PM
Kobe.
Dwight.
Lebron.
Duncan.
Pierce.
Yao.
Nowitzki.
CP3.
Wade.
Durant.
Roy.
Garnett when young.
Bosh.
Melo.

Mavrix
01-15-2010, 03:48 PM
how did i know that everyone was going to forget DWILL

Because he isn't a true franchise player?

philab
01-15-2010, 03:51 PM
For me, "franchise player" is a guy you build around (obviously) AND that can win a championship as a first option if built around properly (being realistic as well -- the Celtics trio would normally have pushed the border of unrealistic a few years ago). Guys who I believe the team has to consider a franchise player going forward are also included.

LeBron
Kobe
Garnett
Wade
Rose
B. Lopez
Nowitzki
Duncan
Melo
Durant
Griffin
Shaq

That's all.

mikeman0000
01-15-2010, 03:57 PM
For me, "franchise player" is a guy you build around (obviously) AND that can win a championship as a first option if built around properly (being realistic as well -- the Celtics trio would normally have pushed the border of unrealistic a few years ago). Guys who I believe the team has to consider a franchise player going forward are also included.

LeBron
Kobe
Garnett
Wade
Rose
B. Lopez
Nowitzki
Duncan
Melo
Durant
Griffin

That's all.

?????

philab
01-15-2010, 03:58 PM
?????

Blake Griffin. Read my definition.

PHX2daDEATH
01-15-2010, 04:06 PM
Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
Wade
Dirk
Melo
NASH- I can't believe nobody has mentioned him.. Why not?

Jonathan2323
01-15-2010, 04:11 PM
Wade
Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
Melo
Paul

TheKing23
01-15-2010, 04:18 PM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Steve Nash
Deron Williams

Corey
01-15-2010, 04:28 PM
Are we talking right now, or throughout their career?

I ask because I'd be much more interested in building around Rose, Williams, CP3 or Rondo rather than Nash because they have much more in the tank.

GREATNESS ONE
01-15-2010, 04:39 PM
Ok you guys need a perfect list here it is

Kobe
Lebron
Dwade
Melo
CP3
Howard
Dwill
Nowitzki
Roy
Durant
Bosh

hard to leave these guys off

Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Nash
Kidd

Since they are still in the league and if any were young easy choices as well

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 04:42 PM
Are we talking right now, or throughout their career?

I ask because I'd be much more interested in building around Rose, Williams, CP3 or Rondo rather than Nash because they have much more in the tank.

You can state whichever you like. Like if you wanted to mention Pierce you can say if you think he was a franchise player throughout his career or not.

streetballa
01-15-2010, 04:47 PM
Tier 1

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
CP3

Tier 2

Durant
Rose
Melo
Brook Lopez
Gay
Wade
Roy
Iguodala
Gerald Wallace
Granger

Left out older players

Hellcrooner
01-15-2010, 04:53 PM
around 40 or 50 palyers


there are 40 or 50 players that ive given 25 shots a night will average 30 ppg

and if you add a GOOD core around him with another allstar guy and above averga starters and good bench they can win the ring.

Check PISTONS 04 to know what i mean

RaptorizedKevin
01-15-2010, 04:59 PM
Kobe
LeBron
Durant
Roy
Melo
Wade
Rose
Dwight
CP3

Rose is not a francaise player. my gosh.

Pierce
Wade
Melo
Lebron
Durant
Dwight howard
CP3
Dirk Novikski
Tim Duncan
Kobe

RaptorizedKevin
01-15-2010, 05:01 PM
Tier 1

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
CP3

Tier 2

Durant
Rose
Melo
Brook Lopez
Gay
Wade
Roy
Iguodala
Gerald Wallace
Granger

Left out older players

you people are crazy? how is brook lopez the francaise player? how is rose the francise player? THERE IS NO TRUE FRANCAISE PLAYER ON THOSE TEAMS. CHILL YO. Gerald wallace, isnt a francaise player, cats were gonna trade him, im thinking they dont think hes as important to their francaise if they wanna trade him, huh? same wiht igoudala, take their namess off the list.

The[chi][town]
01-15-2010, 05:02 PM
Rose is not a francaise player. my gosh.

Pierce
Wade
Melo
Lebron
Durant
Dwight howard
CP3
Dirk Novikski
Tim Duncan
Kobe

hes only in his second year of course hes not. CP3 wasnt a franchise player right away either. give him a couple more years and maybe he will be

Dying2live
01-15-2010, 05:02 PM
People bashing on Rose, then puttin Kevin Durant in their list

?

The[chi][town]
01-15-2010, 05:04 PM
oh yeah and i dont believe CP3 helped his team to a playoff birth in his first year. or second year for that matter

twoearl
01-15-2010, 05:10 PM
personally I am not sure Dwight is a franchise player in the true sense of the word. he may get there eventually but right now I'd say no. And that is the reason Orladno wont wing the ring this year. He is really only dominant on one end of the floor. His offensive game is very very limited. He best scoring season was on 20.6 ppg and that was bascially off dunks and tip ins.

ackar
01-15-2010, 05:13 PM
No one gets this question wrong becomes what a franchise player to some is not to others. there are no guarantees you need a bit of luck.

Vinny642
01-15-2010, 05:18 PM
[town];11993635']oh yeah and i dont believe CP3 helped his team to a playoff birth in his first year. or second year for that matter

The first year was an improvement from the year before he was drafted, also we had a bad team. His second year the whole team was injured.

Whats wrong? You don't wanna say what happened in his third year? Or fourth?

Cubsfan365
01-15-2010, 05:29 PM
Rose is not a francaise player. my gosh.

Pierce
Wade
Melo
Lebron
Durant
Dwight howard
CP3
Dirk Novikski
Tim Duncan
Kobe
I love haters. Rose is in fact a franchise player, and you say he is not and then put Paul Pierce in your list. Inexcusable.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-15-2010, 05:32 PM
I love haters. Rose is in fact a franchise player, and you say he is not and then put Paul Pierce in your list. Inexcusable.

How in the hell is Rose a franchise player lol???

silly bulls fans

Cubsfan365
01-15-2010, 05:33 PM
How in the hell is Rose a franchise player lol???

silly bulls fans
The Bulls will never trade him and they are clearly building around him. That's a franchise player.

Mavrix
01-15-2010, 05:49 PM
Tier 1

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
CP3

Tier 2

Durant
Rose
Melo
Brook Lopez
Gay
Wade
Roy
Iguodala
Gerald Wallace
Granger

Left out older playersKobe is 31

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-15-2010, 05:49 PM
The Bulls will never trade him and they are clearly building around him. That's a franchise player.

Isiah build a team around starbury!

Is he a franchise player?

Vinny642
01-15-2010, 05:51 PM
I dont see Kobe as a franchise player anymore, maybe but ehh.

Slimsim
01-15-2010, 05:55 PM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Steve Nash
Deron Williams

This

Cubsfan365
01-15-2010, 06:03 PM
Isiah build a team around starbury!

Is he a franchise player?
He was a great player before it all unraveled

BkOriginalOne
01-15-2010, 06:06 PM
Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Melo
Duncan
Howard
Paul
Dirk
Kevin Durrant and Brandon Roy are now entering that discussion

avrpatsfan
01-15-2010, 06:08 PM
Paul Pierce easily. He will retire in a Celtics uniform. Kobe

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-15-2010, 06:09 PM
I dont see Kobe as a franchise player anymore, maybe but ehh.

then you're blind:)

nipo10847
01-15-2010, 06:10 PM
I dont think there's too many. Here's my list:

1. Lebron James.
.............................
.............................
.............................
2. Dwayne Wade.
3. Chris Paul.
4. Dwight Howard.
5. Kevin Durant.
6. Carmelo Anthony.
7. Brandoy Roy.




Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Shaq, Nash, kidd are out because of their age factor and all are 30+. You simply dont plan to build a team around a 30+ guy in the long run.

Chronz
01-15-2010, 06:11 PM
For me, "franchise player" is a guy you build around (obviously) AND that can win a championship as a first option if built around properly (being realistic as well -- the Celtics trio would normally have pushed the border of unrealistic a few years ago). Guys who I believe the team has to consider a franchise player going forward are also included.

LeBron
Kobe
Garnett
Wade
Rose
B. Lopez
Nowitzki
Duncan
Melo
Durant
Griffin
Shaq

That's all.

You can build a contender around any first option its just harder with some this is why terms are useless

Cubsfan365
01-15-2010, 06:12 PM
Paul Pierce easily. He will retire in a Celtics uniform. Kobe
How is Paul Pierce easily a franchise player??

Lakersfan2483
01-15-2010, 06:13 PM
There are 30 Teams in the League, and out of those 30 teams, how many True Franchise Players Are There in the NBA?

Basically legit guys you can build teams around and be successful for a good while.

Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Dwayne Wade
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Deron Williams
Carmelo Anthony

phoenix_bladen
01-15-2010, 06:13 PM
I dont think there's too many. Here's my list:

1. Lebron James.
.............................
.............................
.............................
2. Dwayne Wade.
3. Chris Paul.
4. Dwight Howard.
5. Kevin Durant.
6. Carmelo Anthony.
7. Brandoy Roy.




Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Shaq, Nash, kidd are out because of their age factor and all are 30+. You simply dont plan to build a team around a 30+ guy in the long run.

just to put in better words let's call the 30+ players

FORMER franchise players.

Or basically put it they're still considered franchise players to a certain extend however you wouldn't build a team around them at their age.

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 06:32 PM
To me any MVP candidate that is a top 3 candidate is clearly a franchise player.

uchiha
01-15-2010, 06:39 PM
Tier 1

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
CP3

Tier 2

Durant
Rose
Melo
Brook Lopez
Gay
Wade
Roy
Iguodala
Gerald Wallace
Granger

Left out older players

Wade is on the same level as Gerald Wallace? jeez..

The[chi][town]
01-15-2010, 07:54 PM
The first year was an improvement from the year before he was drafted, also we had a bad team. His second year the whole team was injured.

Whats wrong? You don't wanna say what happened in his third year? Or fourth?

we all know he went to the playoffs his 3rd and 4th year, all im saying is everyone wants to put down rose even though he helped get his team to the playoffs in his first year. im not saying hes a franchise player yet, but you cant just shoot down the idea that he could very well be a franchise player just like CP3 in years to come. there are only a few very special players who were franchise players the second they entered the league.

Gators123
01-15-2010, 07:56 PM
Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Melo
Duncan
Howard
Paul
Dirk
Kevin Durrant and Brandon Roy are now entering that discussion

I agree

Raph12
01-15-2010, 08:02 PM
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Paul
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant
Brandon Roy

What's funny is that if you throw in D-Will, that would make my Top 10 list complete.

xbrackattackx
01-15-2010, 08:30 PM
Well Paul P,Kobe,Wade,Timmy D and Dirk are already Franchise Players..They built a franchise around them and they succeeded as their teams number one option.The same way Jordan,Bird,Magic,Hakeem and David Rob. were franchise players.

Shaq,Pippen players like that were/are superstars but never built around as a franchise player..If the magic would have kept Shaq he would have been theres.

I think..

CP3(Even though Vinny never hushes about him)
D-ron
Durrant
Rose
Roy
Melo
Lebron
Howard

Are our Franchise players of the future if they stick out their careers on a team and be the focal point of success. Even if Lebron goes to NYC he is young enough to stay there for years and be the Franchises Face..To me that's a franchise player.

AI4MVP
01-15-2010, 08:35 PM
u guys are ll completely ******** for not putting Steve Nash on ur lists.

xbrackattackx
01-15-2010, 08:47 PM
u guys are ll completely ******** for not putting Steve Nash on ur lists.

Dude Nash is my Favorite basketball player Tied with Kobe.

It's just be cause Nash is in his mid 30's even though he is in phenomenal shape he has maybe 3 amazing season's left.

streetballa
01-15-2010, 08:49 PM
Gerald Wallace has proven if he had better options around him he could carry the team, he is a 20 pt 10 reb type of guy...17.9 pt and 11.5 rebound a night guy if you want to be an *** about it, I could easily build around that.

I admit he is borderline but deserves to be in the conversation...I mean he has been the Bobcats franchise player since they became one.

Lakerfrk
01-15-2010, 08:50 PM
how did i know that everyone was going to forget DWILL

Cause he's not a franchise player... he's a great player, and a star... but not a super star


Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Dirk Nowtizki
Kevin Durant
Carmello Anthony

That's all the franchise players in my book.

Jays Claw
01-15-2010, 08:53 PM
Atlanta Hawks - Joe Johnson
Boston Celtics - Paul Pierce
Charlotte Bobcats - Gerald Wallace
Chicago - Derrick Rose
Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron James
Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki
Denver Nuggets - Carmelo Anthony
Detroit Pistons - Rodney Stuckey
Golden State Warriors - Monta Ellis
Houston Rockets - Aaron Brooks
Indiana Pacers - Danny Granger
L.A Clippers - Blake Griffin
L.A Lakers - Kobe Bryant
Memphis Grizzlies - Marc Gasol
Miami Heat - Dwyane Wade
Milwaukee Bucks - Brandon Jennings
Minnesota Timberwolves - Al Jefferson
New Jersey Nets - Brook Lopez
New Orleans Hornets - Chris Paul
New York Knicks - Danilo Gallinari
Oklahoma City Thunder - Kevin Durant
Orlando Magic - Dwight Howard
Philadelphia 76ers - Andre Iguodala
Phoenix Suns - Steve Nash
Portland Trailblazers - Brandon Roy
Sacramento Kings - Kevin Martin
San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan
Toronto Raptors - Chris Bosh
Utah Jazz - Deron Williams
Washington Wizards - Antawn Jamison

I have listed every team and every player that in my opinion, are the franchise players for their respective organizations. The players that I have put in bold are the players that to me, are true franchise players.

bmanjones
01-15-2010, 08:59 PM
samuel dalembert
anderson varajao
speedy claxton

superkegger
01-15-2010, 09:02 PM
There are 30 Teams in the League, and out of those 30 teams, how many True Franchise Players Are There in the NBA?

Basically legit guys you can build teams around and be successful for a good while.

Way to water down the terms and make them so general it could include way too many people.

What is success? Making the playoffs? Winning some playoff series but never winning a championship, but always being competitive? Winning championships?

I mean, Pau is a legit guy, who you can be "successful" with. But if he's your best player, you're probably never going to win a championship.

The Pacers had Reggie Miller as their franchise guy, for a long time, and by some accounts they were, successful, to a degree. But they never won a championship, even though, for quite a few years, that was their goal. So, was Reggie really a "franchise guy"?

Reggie is an easy example with hindsight, as we now know if he's your best player, you aren't winning a championship. It's harder to say that about stars now, because, well things could still happen.

But if we're talking true success, and by that i mean that if you base your team around this guy, surround him with the right players and coaches, there's a very very good chance, that in a 3-5 year span, that team will win a championship, I'd say, that tere are probably less than 10 true franchise players.

If success is measured differently, as in, guys that put butts in seats and will get you to the playoffs 80% of the time, there's probably around 25-30 guys that can do that when healthy.

It really just depends on what your definition of "franchise player" is, and how much and what kind of (winning or make money *coughjerryreinsdorfcough*) success you're trying to achieve

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 10:21 PM
Way to water down the terms and make them so general it could include way too many people.

What is success? Making the playoffs? Winning some playoff series but never winning a championship, but always being competitive? Winning championships?



Being able to carry a team to the Conference finals at least as the best player on your team or putting up enourmous stats and carrying your team.

asandhu23
01-15-2010, 10:25 PM
Baron Davis for Clippers.
Deron Williams for Utah
Paul for Hornets.
Ellis for Warriors...rest are mentioned.

if you dont put Williams as franchise player, you are a fool. Knicks franchise player- David Lee

PLUS OP wrong time to ask this question. The face of NBA is going to change this offseason. lets talk about this after that.

kblo247
01-15-2010, 10:29 PM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Steve Nash
Deron Williams

I like your list but I'd move Williams and KG off it and put Pierce on it.

Williams is a guy who needs not a Robin, but a so-star like Stockton/Malone.

KG is a guy who just isn't meant to be the franchise player because while he is a fierce competitor he has never had what it takes to go for the kill as the guy. KG brings a lot to the Celtics but what he brings basically equals what Pau or Giniboli have brought to Kobe/Tim and the Lakers/Spurs. He helps make a star that much better and their life easier but he won't lead them into any war.

_KB24_
01-15-2010, 10:34 PM
u guys are ll completely ******** for not putting Steve Nash on ur lists.

He isn't a franchise player. He couldn't even lead the most stacked team in the NBA the past few years to Finals once........

td0tsfinest
01-15-2010, 10:38 PM
To be honest, I only see Wade, Lebon & Kobe as the only true Franchise players.

Shaq and Ducan were in their primes. Their aren't a lot of guys in this league who can carry a big load by themselves but these guys can.

Ray_R
01-15-2010, 10:39 PM
Atlanta Hawks - Joe Johnson
Boston Celtics - Paul Pierce
Charlotte Bobcats - Gerald Wallace
Chicago - Derrick Rose
Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron James
Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki
Denver Nuggets - Carmelo Anthony
Detroit Pistons - Rodney Stuckey
Golden State Warriors - Monta Ellis
Houston Rockets - Aaron Brooks
Indiana Pacers - Danny Granger
L.A Clippers - Blake Griffin
L.A Lakers - Kobe Bryant
Memphis Grizzlies - Marc Gasol
Miami Heat - Dwyane Wade
Milwaukee Bucks - Brandon Jennings
Minnesota Timberwolves - Al Jefferson
New Jersey Nets - Brook Lopez
New Orleans Hornets - Chris Paul
New York Knicks - Danilo Gallinari
Oklahoma City Thunder - Kevin Durant
Orlando Magic - Dwight Howard
Philadelphia 76ers - Andre Iguodala
Phoenix Suns - Steve Nash
Portland Trailblazers - Brandon Roy
Sacramento Kings - Kevin Martin
San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan
Toronto Raptors - Chris Bosh
Utah Jazz - Deron Williams
Washington Wizards - Antawn Jamison

I have listed every team and every player that in my opinion, are the franchise players for their respective organizations. The players that I have put in bold are the players that to me, are true franchise players.

Paul Pierce Isnt a franchise Player and when he was it didnt work out

bostncelts34
01-15-2010, 10:53 PM
I really dont get how some peoples list dont include guys like Garnett and Pierce, yet include guys like Rose who's respective team has no proven anything yet.

bostncelts34
01-15-2010, 10:55 PM
I like your list but I'd move Williams and KG off it and put Pierce on it.

Williams is a guy who needs not a Robin, but a so-star like Stockton/Malone.

KG is a guy who just isn't meant to be the franchise player because while he is a fierce competitor he has never had what it takes to go for the kill as the guy. KG brings a lot to the Celtics but what he brings basically equals what Pau or Giniboli have brought to Kobe/Tim and the Lakers/Spurs. He helps make a star that much better and their life easier but he won't lead them into any war.

KG brought a horrible minny team to the western finals, also won an MVP. How can you say hes not a franchise player.

kblo247
01-15-2010, 11:16 PM
KG brought a horrible minny team to the western finals, also won an MVP. How can you say hes not a franchise player.

He did do that, but don't act like he was the killer on that team.

Sam I Am was the killer for that squad.

KG doesn't have that I want to kill you mentality. He talks ****, cusses up a storm, and is intense but he has never had the stones to take games into his hands down the stretch on a consistent basis.

If he did, he would have been the undisputed best player of the past decade.

Hellcrooner
01-15-2010, 11:39 PM
Being able to carry a team to the Conference finals at least as the best player on your team or putting up enourmous stats and carrying your team. problem is how to measure that .

I mean.

it deepends a lot on who you ahve by your side.

are we sure if clyde drexler had been in Chicago and jordan in portland taht clyde woudlnt have 6 rings?

JordansBulls
01-16-2010, 01:16 AM
KG brought a horrible minny team to the western finals, also won an MVP. How can you say hes not a franchise player.

That 2004 team was not horrible. They were the #1 seed.

kozelkid
01-16-2010, 01:26 AM
Problem with this thread is that there is no definition for franchise player.
If it's a player that a team is currently building around, then there are well over 20.
If it's a player you believe that can lead a championship team as the 1st option (not share the role, but BE the number one option), then I can only think of 7 or so. Depends on your definition of a franchise player. Personally, I believe there is a difference between a superstar and a franchise player. A franchise player doesn't have to be a superstar, merely a star who a team is building around.

Hellcrooner
01-16-2010, 01:39 AM
^agree any player that can lead a team to playoffs being the main man is a franchise player.

if youre able to lead a team to a ring you are a megastar.


curious thing is what happens if you make 5 "failed" franchise players that didnt take their teams far join in one team?

example Nash,Carter, Grant hill ,Pau,Ming

heathonater
01-16-2010, 01:49 AM
do you guys consider injury prone players a.k.a yao ming as franchise players. and i saw shaq listed in an earlier post, which would have been true fiver or six years ago.

Bullsfan22
01-16-2010, 09:47 AM
Problem with this thread is that there is no definition for franchise player.
If it's a player that a team is currently building around, then there are well over 20.
If it's a player you believe that can lead a championship team as the 1st option (not share the role, but BE the number one option), then I can only think of 7 or so. Depends on your definition of a franchise player. Personally, I believe there is a difference between a superstar and a franchise player. A franchise player doesn't have to be a superstar, merely a star who a team is building around.

exactly, it all depends on your definition of a franchise player. I always thought a franchise player is a young player you can build around but doesn't have to be superstar yet.

Franchise player/superstars (10 years to build around and currently considered elite): Lebron,Wade, Durant, cp3, Howard, Mello, Roy..

Superstars (in their prime/decline that has already been franchise players) Kobe, Dirk, KG, Duncan, Shaq...

Franchise players (second options, prime/decline) PP,Ray,nash,Iverson...

Regular Franchise players: any potential young star a team see as a cornerstone that they can build around for the next decade like Rose, Rondo, Stuckey, Westbrook, Bynum, blahh blahh darn near every team has one but some have more promise than others...

NYMetros
01-16-2010, 09:51 AM
Rose a franchise player? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

RaptorizedKevin
01-16-2010, 10:32 AM
To be honest, I only see Wade, Lebon & Kobe as the only true Franchise players.

Shaq and Ducan were in their primes. Their aren't a lot of guys in this league who can carry a big load by themselves but these guys can.

yu look at teams, who if they didnt have this player, they wouldnt win.

Wade, Lebron, kobe, Dirk, Melo. durant

rose is a francaise player?.. no hes not. juss because they want to build around rose, doesnt mean he is a TRUE francaise player.

RaptorizedKevin
01-16-2010, 10:33 AM
Problem with this thread is that there is no definition for franchise player.
If it's a player that a team is currently building around, then there are well over 20.
If it's a player you believe that can lead a championship team as the 1st option (not share the role, but BE the number one option), then I can only think of 7 or so. Depends on your definition of a franchise player. Personally, I believe there is a difference between a superstar and a franchise player. A franchise player doesn't have to be a superstar, merely a star who a team is building around.

i agree with yu 100%. jordanbulls should list these things in the thread, so peopel dont go bashing each others opinions.

aZekuiS
01-16-2010, 11:01 AM
He isn't a franchise player. He couldn't even lead the most stacked team in the NBA the past few years to Finals once........

what team was that?

ny212
01-16-2010, 11:10 AM
Brian Scalabrine
Mike James
Mark Blount
Jermone James

JordansBulls
01-16-2010, 11:10 AM
Problem with this thread is that there is no definition for franchise player.
If it's a player that a team is currently building around, then there are well over 20.
If it's a player you believe that can lead a championship team as the 1st option (not share the role, but BE the number one option), then I can only think of 7 or so. Depends on your definition of a franchise player. Personally, I believe there is a difference between a superstar and a franchise player. A franchise player doesn't have to be a superstar, merely a star who a team is building around.

Yeah I should have specified, but to me I sort of did when I mentioned a guy who can carry a team deep. That to me means someone that can win as the #1 option.



Basically legit guys you can build teams around and be successful for a good while

Kakaroach
01-16-2010, 11:18 AM
Deron Williams should be on everyone's list.

dev0
01-16-2010, 11:40 AM
Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Melo
thats it. i can't see anybody else REALLY putting a team on their back and winning the whole thing by themselves

Mr_Mg41
01-16-2010, 11:40 AM
how can u say blake griffin is a franchise player he hasnt set foot on the court for a regular season game

philab
01-16-2010, 11:46 AM
You can build a contender around any first option its just harder with some this is why terms are useless

Well, I said a CHAMPION, first off. And you can't build a champion around just any first option. As for the "it's just harder" part, I stipulated that it must be realistic.

Mr_Mg41
01-16-2010, 11:48 AM
how can anybody leave dirk off there list he is a multi time all-star league MVP has carried the mavs on his shoulders for the last decade through play offs to nba finals (even though they couldnt go all the way) he has franchise player written all over him

David LeeWright
01-16-2010, 12:19 PM
kobe
lebron
dwight
wade
melo(tho he needs a sidekick like billups to keep him in line)
dirk(as clutch as it can get and the most versatile PF in history)
duncan(still the most consistent big man in the game )
nash(this guy just gets the game and guys love to play with him)
cp3(best pg in the league talent wise)
durant(turning into a superstar before our eyes)
kg(nowadays based on heart and soul and leadership)

on the threshold
b roy
pao
deron williams
amare
bosh

no bosh b/c a franchise player should be able to propel his team to the playoffs in the east. no excuses for that

no paul pierce for the same reason- a statsheet-filling bigmouth without ray allen, kg being given to the celts for hardly anything

Chi City23
01-16-2010, 01:14 PM
Right now..
Kobe
Lebron
Melo
Wade
CP3
Dirk
Dwight
Durant
Duncan
Nash

threshold..
B Roy
Bosh
DWill
Monta Ellis
Amare

possible future add ons..
B Lopez
Rose
Ty Evans

Jamiecballer
01-16-2010, 02:22 PM
around 40 or 50 palyers


there are 40 or 50 players that ive given 25 shots a night will average 30 ppg

and if you add a GOOD core around him with another allstar guy and above averga starters and good bench they can win the ring.

Check PISTONS 04 to know what i mean

that's funny i thought we were talking about franchise players not potential ballhog/scoring champs.

for me there are probably 10-15 tops. i'm too tired right now to list them.

RaptorizedKevin
01-16-2010, 02:37 PM
speaking of tyreke evans. he should be in the all star game. or at least as a reserve.

20/5/5... thats a career average for some people x_x;

Chronz
01-16-2010, 02:38 PM
Yeah I should have specified, but to me I sort of did when I mentioned a guy who can carry a team deep. That to me means someone that can win as the #1 option.

But you can win a title with anyone carrying the offense if your defense is good enough, whats the point with these labels?

Chronz
01-16-2010, 02:39 PM
Well, I said a CHAMPION, first off. And you can't build a champion around just any first option. As for the "it's just harder" part, I stipulated that it must be realistic.
Realistic meaning?

Jays Claw
01-16-2010, 02:55 PM
Kevin Garnett was a franchise player in his prime.

FlakeyFool
01-16-2010, 04:12 PM
For me, "franchise player" is a guy you build around (obviously) AND that can win a championship as a first option if built around properly (being realistic as well -- the Celtics trio would normally have pushed the border of unrealistic a few years ago). Guys who I believe the team has to consider a franchise player going forward are also included.

LeBron
Kobe
Garnett
Wade
Rose
B. Lopez
Nowitzki
Duncan
Melo
Durant
Griffin
Shaq

That's all.

:laugh:

rapsallday
01-16-2010, 04:17 PM
Lebron,Kobe,Wade...thats all next that come close ...Paul,,Howard,melo
....

philab
01-16-2010, 05:38 PM
Realistic meaning?

Read my post.

Basically, someone like Joe Johnson, if surrounded by Mo Williams, Howard, Boozer, and Artest, would win a championship as the "first option." That's not really a realistic team though -- it would never happen. That's why I said the Celtics trio would normally (had it not actually happened) be pushing the border of unrealistic.

philab
01-16-2010, 05:39 PM
:laugh:

Try putting your criticisms into words. A little emoticon as your entire post is pretty damn stupid.

If you read my definition, you'll understand why Blake Griffin is included.

goose15
01-16-2010, 05:50 PM
Lebron
Wade
Kobe
Melo
Dirk
Howard
Durant
Roy
Paul
D Will

Bullsfan22
01-16-2010, 05:52 PM
nobody will ever agree because there is no true definition of a franchise player, just opinions.

_KB24_
01-16-2010, 07:13 PM
what team was that?

Are you being sarcastic or just acting like a _ _ _?

MTar786
01-16-2010, 10:08 PM
i think tyreke evans will make the list in 2 years. n i dont think rose is a franchise player. nor is bosh.. but he's almost one

THE MTL
01-17-2010, 01:01 AM
I dont think you guys know what a franchise player is. A franchise player is basically a go-to-guy...number one option.....Allstar player.

NOT an ELITE player. I consider Elite in another class.

For example, an Elite player is: Lebron, Wade, Paul, Dirk, Howard, Kobe, Duncan.

A franchise player includes: Nash, Granger, Roy, Durant, Bosh, etc.

kswissdaf
01-17-2010, 01:15 AM
Mark Blount is the only Franchise player

ARMIN12NBA
01-17-2010, 04:48 AM
For me, "franchise player" is a guy you build around (obviously) AND that can win a championship as a first option if built around properly (being realistic as well -- the Celtics trio would normally have pushed the border of unrealistic a few years ago). Guys who I believe the team has to consider a franchise player going forward are also included.

LeBron
Kobe
Garnett
Wade
Rose
B. Lopez
Nowitzki
Duncan
Melo
Durant
Griffin
Shaq

That's all.

You believe that Shaq can be a player to "build around...and win a championship as a first option" today? What is your reasoning?

runforrestrunx9
01-17-2010, 05:02 AM
Because he isn't a true franchise player?

:facepalm:

flea
01-17-2010, 05:17 AM
To me a franchise player is a player you build around to win championships. There are two ways to find these players. First, they are the most important players on the teams that make deep runs in the playoffs every year. These are the obvious ones. Second, they are the players that are clearly the best on their team but either by youth or front office ineptitude do not make runs in the playoffs - yet they carry their teams to winning records and playoff appearances year after year and perform well in the playoffs. This is my list:

The Obvious:

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Howard
Wade

The under-appreciated elite and the youth:

Garnett
Nowitzki
Paul
D. Williams
Anthony
Durant
Josh Smith
Roy

I believe Williams is a fringe franchise player at this point, but I give him the benefit of the doubt. Some controversial omissions I made are Nash, Bosh, Stoudemire, Rose, Gasol, and Billups. The reasoning for most of these is simple: defense. All of these guys have either proven incapable of leading a bad team to mediocrity or leading a mediocre team to contention or leading contending teams to dominant teams. I'm not closing the book on younger players but until I see it for myself I'm not calling them something they aren't.

The most controversial inclusion is probably Josh Smith, but given his age, efficiency, success, and most importantly (for me) defense I put him in. He's on a team that only requires 12 shots from him per game at the moment, and he does it at a 50% clip. He's probably the worst franchise player on my list but I believe he's a player you can build around nonetheless because he's an adequate post defender (for a PF), good shot blocker, rebounder, and a good offensive weapon (think early KG). In other words, he does it all, which means there is less for everyone else to do. A guy like Bosh doesn't make it because all he does is rebound and score, and not very efficiently for a big man. He's more of a shooter in a big man's body, which isn't something you necessarily can build around if he hurts you on the defensive end. Since he hasn't won anything and isn't doing particularly well on a team that should be better than it is, I can't in good conscience include Bosh without including David Lee.

ARMIN12NBA
01-17-2010, 05:56 AM
around 40 or 50 palyers


there are 40 or 50 players that ive given 25 shots a night will average 30 ppg

and if you add a GOOD core around him with another allstar guy and above averga starters and good bench they can win the ring.

Check PISTONS 04 to know what i mean

Except that 40-50 players in this league cannot get off 25 shot attempts. That is extremely, extremely difficult. It is not only taxing on the body, but team defenses will be more geared towards stopping that player and so the player will find it much, much more difficult to even get off decent shots after seeing an increasing amount of double/triple teams.

JayW_1023
01-17-2010, 06:04 AM
I used to think of Dwight Howard as a franchise player...but lately I'm not so sure. He looks more like a overglorified role player these days.

jmtapia
01-17-2010, 06:51 AM
I used to think of Dwight Howard as a franchise player...but lately I'm not so sure. He looks more like a overglorified role player these days.

couldnt disagree with you any more... Howard is legit and is barely 24!!! As crazy as it is to think this guy will get better. There isnt any younger big that i would rather start a franchise with...

Trouble87
01-17-2010, 08:06 AM
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Carmello Anthony
Kevin Durant
Brandon Roy
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Dwight Howard
Chris Bosh

12 current franchise players

there are many other players that were franchise guys but I didn't put them on the list cause "were" doesn't count

FOBolous
01-17-2010, 08:08 AM
Players i would built my team around if I was the GM are (in this particular order)...

1. Tim Duncan - best PF in NBA history with multiple championships, 'nuff said

2. Lebron James - best player currently in the NBA, imo. will go down in history as one of those special players that'll only come around once in a lifetime.

3. Chris Bosh - one of two actual 20/10 player in the NBA right now + good big men are rare and big men are pretty much the corner stone to almost every NBA championship team in NBA history.

4. Dirk Nowitzki - due to his size, skills, + playing style, he's a mismatch for pretty much all the team in the NBA. he's also very clutch. like Chris Bosh, he's a big man and big men are rare and big men are pretty much the corner stone to almost every NBA championship team in NBA history.

5. Brook Lopez - unproven but he has the potential to be one of the best center of our time. have a good set of offensive move, can rebound well, and can block shots. also because big men are rare and big men are pretty much the corner stone to almost every NBA championship team in NBA history.

6. Kobe Bryant - arguably the best guard in the NBA since Michael Jordan. a complete player in almost every way. can rain it down on you on one end and shut you down on the other. put any good big man next to him, and you have an instant title contender...that's if you can get a good big man.

7. Chris Paul - the best PG of our time and has the potential to be the best PG in the history of the NBA. can score at will while, at the same time, make his teammates better.

8. Dwayne Wade - can do almost every thing. already has a ring and like Kobe, put a good big man next to him and you got yourself a championship contender.

9. Dwight Howard - out of this world rebounder. out of this world shot blocker. long and athletic. but lack of offensive game is the reason why I put him so low on the list. after 5 seasons in the NBA and he STILL haven't develop an offensive game yet. I'm starting to wonder if he ever will. he's also a very poor free throw shooter...lack of offensive game + poor free throw shooting makes him a liability during crunch time.

9. Kevin Durant - unproven but has plenty of potential. hard working and is alway looking to improve. a formidable force on the offensive end but still needs a little development on the defensive end. can rebound well also.

10. Brandon Roy - smart player. can score well and distribute the ball well.

11. Carmelo Anthony - one of the best, if not the best, scorer in the NBA. can explode for 30 or 40 points at any moment.


HONORABLE MENTION - Yao Ming. If he wasn't so injury prone, he would be on the top of this list. could've been THE best center of our era and one of the best in NBA history if it wasn't for his injuries.


and that's pretty much it.

Chronz
01-17-2010, 02:07 PM
Read my post.

Basically, someone like Joe Johnson, if surrounded by Mo Williams, Howard, Boozer, and Artest, would win a championship as the "first option." That's not really a realistic team though -- it would never happen. That's why I said the Celtics trio would normally (had it not actually happened) be pushing the border of unrealistic.

Did you think a team like the Pistons would ever be constructed, how about the Bullets and Sonics that won in the 70's? You can literally win a title with ANY first option. The greater that first option is the easier it gets **** you could probably win a title without a true first option.

magichatnumber9
01-17-2010, 02:15 PM
Franchise player is a loose term. You ask us and all you will get is a popularity contest.

philab
01-17-2010, 03:31 PM
You believe that Shaq can be a player to "build around...and win a championship as a first option" today? What is your reasoning?

No, not today.

I just listed the franchise players -- past, present, and future (to the best of my ability on future, see my definition) in the league right now. Shaq is most definitely not a franchise player right now. As I included Garnett and even Duncan to an extent, Shaq had to be included as well to stay consistent.

philab
01-17-2010, 03:37 PM
Did you think a team like the Pistons would ever be constructed, how about the Bullets and Sonics that won in the 70's? You can literally win a title with ANY first option. The greater that first option is the easier it gets **** you could probably win a title without a true first option.

Yeah, but no team in their right mind would have built around Billups or Rip (or 'Sheed at that point) in hopes of winning a championship.

You can't win with ANY first option, but I understand your point. Still, my picks are consistent with my definition.

Chronz
01-17-2010, 04:24 PM
Yeah, but no team in their right mind would have built around Billups or Rip (or 'Sheed at that point) in hopes of winning a championship.
But they won one anyways, just gos to show how irrelevant these labels are. What matters is the TEAM.


You can't win with ANY first option, but I understand your point. Still, my picks are consistent with my definition.
You can literally win with ANY first option.

Hellcrooner
01-17-2010, 04:34 PM
playesr that are ELITE = players that have led the team to the TITLE.

SHAQ
Duncan
KObe
Garnett
Wade

Players that have led the team DEEP into the playoffs = Strong Franchise players.
Lebron
Howard
Iverson
DIrk
Carter
Kidd
Melo
Nash
PIerce

Players that have led non realcontenders with under par players into the playofs = Franchise worhty and could blong in a higher scale if thy had the help.

Pau Gasol
Ming
T-Mac
Deron
Roy
Bosh
Jermain Oneal
C Paul
JOE johnson

ALL OF THESE ARE CERTIFIED FRANCHIS PLAYERS that have already DONE enough to be rated in one of the three tiers of Franchise players.

The youngsters(rose, durant etc) still ahve to demonstrate they can or cant

KnicksorBust
01-17-2010, 04:38 PM
5. Brook Lopez - unproven but he has the potential to be one of the best center in the NBA history. have a good set of offensive move, can rebound well, and can block shots. also because big men are rare and big men are pretty much the corner stone to almost every NBA championship team in NBA history.


In his sophomore season, he's averaging 18.8ppg on 48.6%fg, with 9.5 rpg, and 2.0bpg on a 3-36 team (he's played in every game). Nothing about that says potential to be one of the best centers in NBA History. He is not a franchise player.


playesr that are ELITE = players that have led the team to the TITLE.

SHAQ
Duncan
KObe
Garnett

Players that have led the team DEEP into the playoffs = Strong Franchise players.
Howard
Iverson
DIrk
Carter
Kidd
Melo
Nash
PIerce

Players that have led non realcontenders with under par players into the playofs = Franchise worhty and could blong in a higher scale if thy had the help.

Pau Gasol
Ming
T-Mac
Deron
Roy
Bosh
Jermain Oneal
C Paul
JOE johnson

ALL OF THESE ARE CERTIFIED FRANCHIS PLAYERS that have already DONE enough to be rated in one of the three tiers of Franchise players.

The youngsters(rose, durant etc) still ahve to demonstrate they can or cant

Forget D-Wade?

philab
01-17-2010, 04:38 PM
But they won one anyways, just gos to show how irrelevant these labels are. What matters is the TEAM.

Right. The Pistons won a championship. And yes, the team matters. We're talking about FRANCHISE PLAYERS here though. No one on that Pistons team was a franchise player by my definition (or anyone's, likely), which I've explained thoroughly by this point.

I'm not sure what you're getting at besides just trying to drive things off-topic.


You can literally win with ANY first option.

No, you can't. If I were a first option, my team would not win an NBA Championship. Seriously, c'mon now.

philab
01-17-2010, 04:40 PM
playesr that are ELITE = players that have led the team to the TITLE.

SHAQ
Duncan
KObe
Garnett

Players that have led the team DEEP into the playoffs = Strong Franchise players.
Howard
Iverson
DIrk
Carter
Kidd
Melo
Nash
PIerce

Players that have led non realcontenders with under par players into the playofs = Franchise worhty and could blong in a higher scale if thy had the help.

Pau Gasol
Ming
T-Mac
Deron
Roy
Bosh
Jermain Oneal
C Paul
JOE johnson

ALL OF THESE ARE CERTIFIED FRANCHIS PLAYERS that have already DONE enough to be rated in one of the three tiers of Franchise players.

The youngsters(rose, durant etc) still ahve to demonstrate they can or cant

I'll let you decide where, but LeBron should be on there somewhere.

Hellcrooner
01-17-2010, 04:41 PM
yeahi somehow forogto lebron and wade.

but they are in now.

wade tier 1 lebron 2 for the moment

Hellcrooner
01-17-2010, 04:44 PM
and of course you can win without a clear go to.

thats what pistons did.

and im SURE a team like this coudl win it all.

Parker,Ginobili, Battier,Gasol,Ming ( providing everyones healthy)

philab
01-17-2010, 04:45 PM
In his sophomore season, he's averaging 18.8ppg on 48.6%fg, with 9.5 rpg, and 2.0bpg on a 3-36 team (he's played in every game). Nothing about that says potential to be one of the best centers in NBA History. He is not a franchise player.

Except that he's 21 years old. His numbers aren't terribly far off Duncan's at that age and Duncan had a championship-caliber team around him and another HOF big to take some pressure off.

yankee$fan213
01-17-2010, 04:46 PM
Ten

KnicksorBust
01-17-2010, 05:20 PM
Except that he's 21 years old. His numbers aren't terribly far off Duncan's at that age and Duncan had a championship-caliber team around him and another HOF big to take some pressure off.

First, 22-11 is not the same level of talent as 19-9. Those 3 points and 2 rebounds mean a hell of a lot over the course of a season. Second, Duncan was already first-team all-nba and first-team all-defensive team by his 2nd year, Brook Lopez is neither. Third, Duncan had a 34 year old Robinson as his teammate not a 28 year old Robinson. He wasn't playing at a HOF level when TD got there. Fourth, there's no way on Earth Duncan would have ever been part of a 3-36 team. Put him with any other 4 nba caliber players and he would elevate that team to .500. Just like other Franchise players like Kobe and D-Wade have done when surrounded by trash.

FOBolous
01-17-2010, 05:39 PM
First, 22-11 is not the same level of talent as 19-9. Those 3 points and 2 rebounds mean a hell of a lot over the course of a season. Second, Duncan was already first-team all-nba and first-team all-defensive team by his 2nd year, Brook Lopez is neither. Third, Duncan had a 34 year old Robinson as his teammate not a 28 year old Robinson. He wasn't playing at a HOF level when TD got there. Fourth, there's no way on Earth Duncan would have ever been part of a 3-36 team. Put him with any other 4 nba caliber players and he would elevate that team to .500. Just like other Franchise players like Kobe and D-Wade have done when surrounded by trash.

maybe i went a little far saying he'll become one of the best center in NBA history but i have no doubt he'll become one of the best, if not the best, center of our time. He's going to average 20/10/2 either towards the end of this season or by next season and how many 20/10/2 center do you know are in the NBA right now? yea.

philab
01-17-2010, 06:36 PM
First, 22-11 is not the same level of talent as 19-9. Those 3 points and 2 rebounds mean a hell of a lot over the course of a season. Second, Duncan was already first-team all-nba and first-team all-defensive team by his 2nd year, Brook Lopez is neither. Third, Duncan had a 34 year old Robinson as his teammate not a 28 year old Robinson. He wasn't playing at a HOF level when TD got there. Fourth, there's no way on Earth Duncan would have ever been part of a 3-36 team. Put him with any other 4 nba caliber players and he would elevate that team to .500. Just like other Franchise players like Kobe and D-Wade have done when surrounded by trash.

Lopez is not Duncan. I never pretended he was.

Duncan is a top 7-8 player ever. Duncan won FOUR championships. If Lopez could even sniff those numbers, you'd have to consider him a possible franchise player.

What you're arguing would be like calling Wade "not a franchise player" because he doesn't compare well with Jordan. You'd be forgetting that Jordan, like Duncan here, was much, much more than a franchise player. Lopez doesn't compare great with Duncan, but he is arguably a franchise player nonetheless.

Lopez is too young to make a clear determination, but he is likely a franchise player following my definition (i.e., the team has to consider him a franchise player going forward).

The bolded part is dumb. That's nothing but speculation. And comparing him to Wade and Kobe (neither of which did much of anything on their "terrible teams" anyway) is stupid. Lopez is still maturing; Wade and Kobe were much closer to their peaks when they were on terrible teams. My definition of franchise player does not demand the player be near his potential level of play to be considered such anyway. John Wall might be a "franchise player" even though he's never stepped foot on a pro court.

ARMIN12NBA
01-17-2010, 06:40 PM
No, not today.

I just listed the franchise players -- past, present, and future (to the best of my ability on future, see my definition) in the league right now. Shaq is most definitely not a franchise player right now. As I included Garnett and even Duncan to an extent, Shaq had to be included as well to stay consistent.

Alright. If you include past, present, and future, then I agree obviously. I thought you were talking about present which threw me off.

flea
01-17-2010, 06:42 PM
The bolded part is dumb. That's nothing but speculation. And comparing him to Wade and Kobe (neither of which did much of anything on their "terrible teams" anyway) is stupid.
They took their teams to at least .500 and almost always made the playoffs. That is more than not much, and it's certainly more than Lopez.


Lopez is still maturing. My definition of franchise player does not demand the player be near his potential level of play to be considered such. John Wall might be a "franchise player" even though he's never stepped foot on a pro court.
Michael Jordan's son might be a franchise player. Damion James "might" be a franchise player. The point is none of these people are yet, so why call them something they aren't just because you think one day they might be? Don't count your eggs before they've hatched.

philab
01-17-2010, 06:52 PM
Alright. If you include past, present, and future, then I agree obviously. I thought you were talking about present which threw me off.

Yeah, he's definitely not now.

Despite my sympathies, I'm not a Shaq homer (try not to be a homer at all, but it's not even an issue here). I've got nothing against Shaq, but he's just another player on the Cavaliers at this point. His ego/reputation/whatever (depending on whether he or the staff is at fault) actually hurts the Cavs somewhat often. Shaq keeps getting touches with his back to the basket and 6-8 feet away, even when LeBron is in. He can't produce from there consistently at this age, yet we still waste touches on him. If LeBron's sitting, I don't really care . . . but when LeBron is in, giving the offense to Shaq essentially takes LeBron out and allows the defense to focus on him. Shaq works best at this point when he can position himself off the ball (which, with his size and no double teams, is very doable) and be found for an easy two.

KnicksorBust
01-17-2010, 06:53 PM
maybe i went a little far saying he'll become one of the best center in NBA history but i have no doubt he'll become one of the best, if not the best, center of our time. He's going to average 20/10/2 either towards the end of this season or by next season and how many 20/10/2 center do you know are in the NBA right now? yea.

I agree that he will be one of the better centers of our generation but that's not saying very much. He wouldn't have been a top 10 center back in the 90s. I think players like Horford, Nene, Kaman, Bynum, Marc Gasol, Al Jefferson, Yao Ming, and obviously Dwight Howard are all in the same class. I'd probably take him 4th or 5th out of that list.


Lopez is not Duncan. I never pretended he was.

Duncan is a top 7-8 player ever. Duncan won FOUR championships. If Lopez could even sniff those numbers, you'd have to consider him a possible franchise player.

Lopez is too young to make a clear determination, but he is likely a franchise player following my definition (i.e., the team has to consider him a franchise player going forward).

The bolded part is dumb. That's nothing but speculation. And comparing him to Wade and Kobe (neither of which did much of anything on their "terrible teams" anyway) is stupid. Lopez is still maturing. My definition of franchise player does not demand the player be near his potential level of play to be considered such. John Wall might be a "franchise player" even though he's never stepped foot on a pro court.

The bolded part is, in the words of the great Kriss Kross, wiggity wiggity wack. It implies every team has a franchise player. You never pretended he was Duncan you just compared him to Duncan and said that his numbers were similar (big mistake) when really, even in terms of stats and accomplishments, Lopez can't touch what young TD did. Just name me a franchise player who after playing in his teams first 39 games had won 7.7% of their games and I'll drop it. That's all. You can't be that great of a player and have a team with that bad of a record. It's clear as can be.

philab
01-17-2010, 06:58 PM
They took their teams to at least .500 and almost always made the playoffs. That is more than not much, and it's certainly more than Lopez.

I edited right before you posted. To reiterate, Wade and Kobe were much closer to their peaks when they were put on terrible teams. Lopez is not near his peak. It's an unfair comparison.



Michael Jordan's son might be a franchise player. Damion James "might" be a franchise player. The point is none of these people are yet, so why call them something they aren't just because you think one day they might be? Don't count your eggs before they've hatched.

None of those players are in the NBA right now, so your point goes nowhere. Look at the title of this thread.

And there's a reason for it anyway -- I'm trying to pinpoint players that should be considered franchise players.


I love that I'm the ONLY poster in this thread that has offered a definition for "franchise player" -- something that is absolutely necessary before compiling a list of franchise players -- and yet everyone appears to ignore my definition. I've been consistent throughout.

philab
01-17-2010, 07:02 PM
The bolded part is, in the words of the great Kriss Kross, wiggity wiggity wack. It implies every team has a franchise player. You never pretended he was Duncan you just compared him to Duncan and said that his numbers were similar (big mistake) when really, even in terms of stats and accomplishments, Lopez can't touch what young TD did. Just name me a franchise player who after playing in his teams first 39 games had won 7.7% of their games and I'll drop it. That's all. You can't be that great of a player and have a team with that bad of a record. It's clear as can be.

I did not say "similar;" I said "not terribly far off." There is a difference. READING COMPREHENSION.

Lopez isn't "that great of a player" (or at least that's not my argument). It's that he has shown the potential to be the first option on a championship team and should be considered a "franchise player" going forward (i.e., should be built around).

And how does that imply that every team has a franchise player?

flea
01-17-2010, 07:03 PM
None of those players are in the NBA right now, so your point goes nowhere. Look at the title of this thread.

And there's a reason for it anyway -- I'm trying to pinpoint players that should be considered franchise players.


I love that I'm the ONLY poster in this thread that has offered a definition for "franchise player" -- something that is absolutely necessary before compiling a list of franchise players -- and yet everyone appears to ignore my definition. I've been consistent throughout.
You brought up John Wall as a potential franchise player, just like Lopez who plays on the worst team in the NBA. Lopez is no more a franchise player than Al Jefferson. And you're saying that Howard, Lebron, Anthony, and Kobe were all closer to their peak at age 18/19? Get real.

I offered a definition in my post and other users have as well. You probably only read 1 page of the thread.

philab
01-17-2010, 07:11 PM
You brought up John Wall as a potential franchise player, just like Lopez who plays on the worst team in the NBA. Lopez is no more a franchise player than Al Jefferson. And you're saying that Howard, Lebron, Anthony, and Kobe were all closer to their peak at age 18/19? Get real.

I offered a definition in my post and other users have as well. You probably only read 1 page of the thread.

Considering I have a post on most pages and have responded to posters throughout, that last part is pretty moronic.

John Wall might be a POTENTIAL franchise player, yes. If he were in the NBA, I might have included him. As he's not and in light of the title of this thread, I did not.

What the Howard, LeBron, Anthony, etc. comment means is beyond me. I never mentioned Howard at all (he's not even on my list!). We were speaking of Wade and Kobe. Wade and Kobe, when on terrible teams, were much closer to their peaks than Lopez is now. Both came into the league on playoff-caliber teams and both had SHAQ on their teams by at least their second season.

As for LeBron, I would have considered him a franchise player at 18/19 as well, and the Cavaliers were pretty bad then. So, umm, . . . ?

jjizle
01-17-2010, 07:11 PM
Lebron, Melo, Wade, Kobe, Dwight, CP3, and Durant. Cant include guys like Garnet, Nash, Duncan, they used to be franchise guys but not my first choice if i was to start a team over this minute. As a bulls fan gotta love Rose but not a franchise player yet. Lets get deeper into the playoffs first.

flea
01-17-2010, 07:17 PM
Considering I have a post on most pages and have responded to posters throughout, that last part is pretty moronic.

John Wall might be a POTENTIAL franchise player, yes. If he were in the NBA, I might have included him. As he's not and in light of the title of this thread, I did not.

What the Howard, LeBron, Anthony, etc. comment means is beyond me. I never mentioned Howard at all (he's not even on my list!). We were speaking of Wade and Kobe. Wade and Kobe, when on terrible teams, were much closer to their peaks than Lopez is now. Both came into the league on playoff-caliber teams and both had SHAQ on their teams by at least their second season.

As for LeBron, I would have considered him a franchise player at 18/19 as well, and the Cavaliers were pretty bad then. So, umm, . . . ?

Well whatever, you're entitled to your opinion. (Even if it's your opinion that Brook Lopez is a franchise player while Dwight Howard isn't.)

philab
01-17-2010, 07:22 PM
Well whatever, you're entitled to your opinion. (Even if it's your opinion that Brook Lopez is a franchise player while Dwight Howard isn't.)

It's not that Dwight isn't a great player. I didn't have Chris Paul, Chris Bosh, or Brandon Roy on there either. Those are all top 10 players in the league.

I just wouldn't call them "franchise players." They can't realistically, IMO, win a championship as the first option. They are the Clyde Drexlers, Karl Malones, and Patrick Ewings of this generation.

JordansBulls
01-17-2010, 08:25 PM
It's not that Dwight isn't a great player. I didn't have Chris Paul, Chris Bosh, or Brandon Roy on there either. Those are all top 10 players in the league.

I just wouldn't call them "franchise players." They can't realistically, IMO, win a championship as the first option. They are the Clyde Drexlers, Karl Malones, and Patrick Ewings of this generation.

WTF!!

How does that apply when all of them led teams to the finals multiple times? Drexler, Malone and Ewing were clearly franchise players.

MackSnackWrap
01-17-2010, 08:42 PM
Bosh is one for everyone leaving him out

philab
01-18-2010, 01:44 AM
WTF!!

How does that apply when all of them led teams to the finals multiple times? Drexler, Malone and Ewing were clearly franchise players.

Ewing maybe, the others not so much. Amazing players, yes. FRANCHISE players, no.

I'm talking championship-WINNING team. The fact that none of those guys won a championship in one of the weaker eras team-wise should mean something.

And just to be sure, a guy doesn't have to win a championship to be considered a franchise player and a championship does not make a guy a franchise player. It is, however, evidence.

Nighthawk
01-18-2010, 01:45 AM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade


THATS IT!

flea
01-18-2010, 01:46 AM
So what does the fact that Brook Lopez owns the worst record in the NBA mean to you? Lots of potential?

philab
01-18-2010, 02:02 AM
So what does the fact that Brook Lopez owns the worst record in the NBA mean to you? Lots of potential?

Brook Lopez does not own the worst record in the NBA. That doesn't make much sense.

Aside from that, it means that he's a 21 year-old on a terrible team.

FOBolous
01-18-2010, 02:08 AM
I agree that he will be one of the better centers of our generation but that's not saying very much. He wouldn't have been a top 10 center back in the 90s. I think players like Horford, Nene, Kaman, Bynum, Marc Gasol, Al Jefferson, Yao Ming, and obviously Dwight Howard are all in the same class. I'd probably take him 4th or 5th out of that list.

I would rate Lopez above everyone in your list. Horford is a good rebounder and a good shot blocker but there's plenty of centers in the NBA who are good rebounder and shot blockers. what makes a center "special" is their ability to score and be the focal point of their team's offense.

Horford and Nene will never have that "special" quality.

Kaman could've but he's too injury prone. Same goes for Yao. His health is questionable despite the fact that he's the most dominant force in the NBA down low when he's healthy.

Bynum's basketball IQ is too low.

We need to see more of Marc Gasol before we can make a decision to see if he's on Lopez's level.

Howard? Howard STILL doesn't have an offensive game despite the fact that he's in his 6th season. I'm starting to wonder if he ever will.

HiphopRelated
01-18-2010, 10:02 AM
I like Lopez, but the guy is healthy leading what could be the worst team ever.

He can't be the best center in the league.

JordansBulls
01-18-2010, 04:57 PM
Ewing maybe, the others not so much. Amazing players, yes. FRANCHISE players, no.

I'm talking championship-WINNING team. The fact that none of those guys won a championship in one of the weaker eras team-wise should mean something.

And just to be sure, a guy doesn't have to win a championship to be considered a franchise player and a championship does not make a guy a franchise player. It is, however, evidence.

You can't be serious here. I guess that means Wilt wasn't a franchise player or Oscar since there was only 1 dominant team in the 60's.

If you can lead teams to the finals as the hands down best player on the team, you are franchise player period.

Regarding the 90's. Ill throw out a few names for each team

- Atlanta - Moses Malone, Nique, Blaylock, Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Kenny Smith...oh and Cliff Levingston

- Celtics - Bird, Mchale, Parish, Dennis Johnson, Reggie Lewis RIP...oh and Jim Paxson

- Charlotte - Bogues, Mourning, Johnson, JR Reid, Chapman, Dell Curry, Kendall Gill

- Cavs - Price, Nance, Ron Harper, Daugherty, Ehlo

- Bulls - Do I even need to?

- Mavs - I wont argue this one, the Mavs used to suck...how about Perkins, Derek Harper and Rolando Blackman..oh wait they also had Wennington!!

- Nuggets - Alex English..um...Michael Adams (did he ever end up coaching anywhere? I always thought he'd become a coach...WAIT he could be the veteran surprise!! Next thing you know Bulls guards will be putting the ball behind their backs twice before dishing it off

- Pistons - Isiah, Dumars, Rodman, V. Johnson, Aguirre

- Warriors - Run TMC ( Hardaway, Richmond and Mullin) oh and who could forget manute bol!!

- Rockets - Hakeem, Maxwell, Thorpe and then later Smith and Cassell

- Pacers - Miller, Schrempf, Smits, Person

- Clippers - Danny 'injured list' Manning, Ron Harper and Eddy Curry before he became Eddy Curry aka Benoit Benjamin

- Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Scott, Divac, A.C Green, Elden Campbell

- Heat - Umm Glen Rice? Seikaly...haha and then later Hardaway and Mourning

- Bucks - Umm Alvin Robertson, Ricky Pierce, Paul Pressey

- Timberwolves - Crap and more crap

- Nets - Drazen RIP..Kenny Anderson, Derrick Coleman aka Beasley before he was Beasley

Urghh im getting sick of going through every team so just to pick a few, the old Knicks teams of Ewing, Starks, Mason, Harper, G.Wilkins (aka Jordan stopper hahaha) Oakley, X man, Mark Jackson...would destroy current Knicks

The Magic with Shaq, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Penny, SKILES!!! would beat current Magic.....actually that would be a lot of fun to watch...Young Shaq vs dwight, Scott and Anderson 3's vs Lewis and Turkoglu....

The Sixers of Barkley, Mahorn, Hawkins, Cheeks

The Suns teams with KJ, Majerle, Ceballos Chambers also later Barkley ...oh and Oliver Miller aka Eddy Curry

Blazers - Uncle Cliffy, Drexler, Kersey, Terry Porter, Buck Williams

Spurs - This is a tough one but David Robinson, Sean Elliot, Cummings, Strickland

Sonics - McKey, Ricky Pierce, Dale Ellis, McMillan, Kemp, Payton, Schrempf (later on in his career), Cage

Jazz - Stockton & malone....vs Williams and Boozer....Hornacek vs Korver



And the 90's competition was much greater than the 80's competition in the Western Conference. No one could really challenge the Lakers. Every team the Bulls faced in the Conference finals and NBA Finals was just as deep and had 2 superstars or a deep 5. 1991 Lakers, 1991 Pistons, 1992 Cavs (3 allstars), Knicks (Ewing, X-man and deep roster), 1992 Blazers (Best Starting 5 around with 2 stars and a loaded frontcourt). 1993 Cavs, Knicks and Suns. 1996 Knicks, Magic (Penny and Shaq with the best starting 5 around) and Sonics (2 stars and a 3rd player that was a star in '95 and '97 in Detlef along with another great player in Hawkins). 1997 Heat with Zo and Hardaway and Mashburn with Majerle and PJ Brown as well. 1997 Hawks with Smith, Blaylock, Deke, Laettner (allstar that year). 1997 Jazz one of the best teams to never win the title and beat a Houston team with Hakeem, Chuck and Drexler. 1998 Pacers (Deep team with 2 stars that year in Miller and Smits along with guys who could control the paint and limit Rodman and a team that had at least 4-5 defenders they could throw at you). 1998 Jazz team that took out the Rockets with Hakeem, drexler and Barkley and then Duncan and Robinson who both were getting 20+ and 10+ rpg that year and then the Lakers who had 4 allstars that year and won 61 games. They even swept them. Not sure how many 60 wins teams got swept in a series, but that was one and the 1996 Magic was another.

All in all those teams were good and could hang with any team and upset some in the 80's as well. They weren't the Sixers or Celtics or teams of that quality but good enough to win especially considering even the Lakers were losing to teams in the playoffs in the 80's that were inferior to any of those teams in Houston in '81 and '86 and the Celtics when they lost to the Sixers in '82 and Bucks in '83 with HCA and then went 7 with the Knicks in 1984. Also the Sixers team that won it all in 1983 lost in the 1st round the next year to the Nets.

So just because the competition may not seem to be the greatest ever or anything, teams still lose to teams they shouldn't in the playoffs.

flea
01-18-2010, 05:19 PM
ITT: Rose, Lopez, and Griffin are franchise players but Paul, Drexler, and Howard are not. I'm sorry but that's just indefensible.

JWO35
01-18-2010, 05:30 PM
ITT: Rose, Lopez, and Griffin are franchise players but Paul, Drexler, and Howard are not. I'm sorry but that's just indefensible.

How much is he averaging this season :rolleyes:

philab
01-18-2010, 06:00 PM
ITT: Rose, Lopez, and Griffin are franchise players but Paul, Drexler, and Howard are not. I'm sorry but that's just indefensible.

It's not that Rose, Lopez, and Griffin are better players or even WILL BE better players. CP3 may be top 5 in the league, but I wouldn't consider him a "franchise player."

CP3 will not win a championship as the first option. He's a fantastic player -- any team would be ecstatic to have him and the Hornets would be dumb as **** to unload him for anyone besides LeBron, Melo, and maybe Wade, Kobe, and Howard. However, for CP3 to win a championship, he'd need another top 8 or so player on his team. That's what happened with Drexler -- he only won a championship once he met up with Olajuwon. Malone had a HOF PG and couldn't ever win one. The fact that the Jazz made two Finals appearances is great, but that goes more along the "2004 Pistons" branch, IMO. Ewing was borderline.

philab
01-18-2010, 06:06 PM
To JB:

I'm not sure what the list of players was for. I'll take Bird, Moses, Magic, Daugherty, Jordan, Dream, D. Robinson, Shaq, and maybe Isiah and Ewing as franchise players (of that list, we might each be forgetting someone).

The rest, as great as they may have been, were not franchise players, IMO.

musefan1990
01-18-2010, 06:10 PM
this is really tough but for me it comes down to kobe, lebron, and dwade to start my franchise

EaglesJackson10
01-18-2010, 06:37 PM
Tier 1

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
CP3

Tier 2

Durant
Rose
Melo
Brook Lopez
Gay
Wade
Roy
Iguodala
Gerald Wallace
Granger

Left out older players

Dwayne Wade is in the second Tier are you kidding. He won an NBA championship when he was the best player on his team. How can you possibly have him on the same level as Igoudala, Rose, Brook Lopez, and Gerald Wallace. I would take him over at least CP3 and Dwight and might have him on the same level as Kobe and Lebron.

a_sutcliffe
01-18-2010, 06:46 PM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade


THATS IT!

x2

JordansBulls
01-18-2010, 07:17 PM
To JB:

I'm not sure what the list of players was for. I'll take Bird, Moses, Magic, Daugherty, Jordan, Dream, D. Robinson, Shaq, and maybe Isiah and Ewing as franchise players (of that list, we might each be forgetting someone).

The rest, as great as they may have been, were not franchise players, IMO.

So you don't consider Garnett a franchise player?

mavwar53
01-18-2010, 07:28 PM
10-15

philab
01-18-2010, 08:02 PM
So you don't consider Garnett a franchise player?

1. He was on my original list.

2. He was not in your last post.


YES, I consider Garnett a franchise player.

PJAF
01-18-2010, 08:13 PM
2. Kobe and Lebron.

MajorFloridaFan
01-18-2010, 09:10 PM
For me, "franchise player" is a guy you build around (obviously) AND that can win a championship as a first option if built around properly (being realistic as well -- the Celtics trio would normally have pushed the border of unrealistic a few years ago). Guys who I believe the team has to consider a franchise player going forward are also included.

LeBron
Kobe
Garnett
Wade
Rose
B. Lopez
Nowitzki
Duncan
Melo
Durant
Griffin
Shaq

That's all.

dude i am not being a homer you forgot dwight you make no sense..lets add rose or b.lopez who have not done anything dwight has....youngest rebound camp youngest block and rebound champ youngest dpoy......get real man...he has offensive problems but you build champs around big men.

YOU TELL ME WHAT WORLD ANYONE WOULD PICK BROOK LOPEZ OVER D. HOWARD

philab
01-18-2010, 10:01 PM
dude i am not being a homer you forgot dwight you make no sense..lets add rose or b.lopez who have not done anything dwight has....youngest rebound camp youngest block and rebound champ youngest dpoy......get real man...he has offensive problems but you build champs around big men.

YOU TELL ME WHAT WORLD ANYONE WOULD PICK BROOK LOPEZ OVER D. HOWARD

Lopez is a big man too.

Howard's first two years aren't that much different statistically than Lopez's.

It's a hard comparison though. First, they aren't the same age. And putting them in the same hypothetical draft at age 18/19, most teams would probably go with Howard because of the athleticism. Over the years, however, we've witnessed Howard's relative inability to develop an offensive game. Lopez is still sitting at 1.5 years in the league, so we haven't had the benefit of time there.

And again, this isn't a ranking of "best" players -- it's a list of "franchise players."

JordansBulls
01-18-2010, 10:10 PM
1. He was on my original list.

2. He was not in your last post.


YES, I consider Garnett a franchise player.

Then these guys are as well.

Drexler, Malone and Ewing

philab
01-18-2010, 10:50 PM
Then these guys are as well.

Drexler, Malone and Ewing

I don't follow the logic . . .

dstruong
01-19-2010, 12:51 AM
if the bulls sign wade in the off season, is rose still a franchise player?

MajorFloridaFan
01-19-2010, 04:53 AM
Lopez is a big man too.

Howard's first two years aren't that much different statistically than Lopez's.

It's a hard comparison though. First, they aren't the same age. And putting them in the same hypothetical draft at age 18/19, most teams would probably go with Howard because of the athleticism. Over the years, however, we've witnessed Howard's relative inability to develop an offensive game. Lopez is still sitting at 1.5 years in the league, so we haven't had the benefit of time there.

And again, this isn't a ranking of "best" players -- it's a list of "franchise players."

i agree with most of your logic
make a poll on dwight being a franchise player not a best player and see what you get...my money is on dwight being a franchise man...big men just simple are not athletic and he is...dwights stats out of the boxscore are impressive and a game changer..thing is he is a top 10 player without offense..shows you how impressive his other aread are

Raph12
01-19-2010, 05:33 AM
Lopez is a big man too.

Howard's first two years aren't that much different statistically than Lopez's.

It's a hard comparison though. First, they aren't the same age. And putting them in the same hypothetical draft at age 18/19, most teams would probably go with Howard because of the athleticism. Over the years, however, we've witnessed Howard's relative inability to develop an offensive game. Lopez is still sitting at 1.5 years in the league, so we haven't had the benefit of time there.

And again, this isn't a ranking of "best" players -- it's a list of "franchise players."

No offense, but dumbest post ever.

Lopez was two years older than Howard was coming into the league so your explanation for their similarities coming in, doesn't apply here.

Plus, Howard's offensive game may need work, but his impact on a game is larger than anyone in the league not named Kobe Bryant or Lebron James. He single-handedly changes opposing teams' offenses, his athletic prowess is untouchable and his offensive game has gotten much better. Hell he lit up Bynum and Gasol when SVG ran iso plays for him in the game against LA tonight, they were forced to double him in the second half at which point SVG decided to stop going to him (what a dumbass).

Let me put it this way, find me one GM/Owner of any basketball team in this world (no make-believe guys allowed), who would choose Brook Lopez over Dwight Howard to start their franchise.

nolin
01-19-2010, 06:34 AM
lol some of these post are rediculious. as of right now these are the franchise players in the nba.

Lebron
Kobe
wade
D.Howard
Duncan- Time is running out though.

Yes as of now there are only 5 franchise players in the league.

JordansBulls
01-19-2010, 09:25 AM
lol some of these post are rediculious. as of right now these are the franchise players in the nba.

Lebron
Kobe
wade
D.Howard
Duncan- Time is running out though.

Yes as of now there are only 5 franchise players in the league.

So Melo, Dirk are not franchise players?

RaiderDawg
01-19-2010, 01:50 PM
The overall 99 Kobe and the overall 97 Lebron

RaiderDawg
01-19-2010, 01:51 PM
So Melo, Dirk are not franchise players?

Melo an overall 91 and Dirk is an overall 94.

Let me have some of whatever you're smoking.

illegallover
01-19-2010, 01:53 PM
lol some of these post are rediculious. as of right now these are the franchise players in the nba.

Lebron
Kobe
wade
D.Howard
Duncan- Time is running out though.

Yes as of now there are only 5 franchise players in the league.

I agree minus Wade.

philab
01-19-2010, 11:12 PM
i agree with most of your logic
make a poll on dwight being a franchise player not a best player and see what you get...my money is on dwight being a franchise man...big men just simple are not athletic and he is...dwights stats out of the boxscore are impressive and a game changer..thing is he is a top 10 player without offense..shows you how impressive his other aread are

Agreed.

philab
01-19-2010, 11:17 PM
No offense, but dumbest post ever.

Lopez was two years older than Howard was coming into the league so your explanation for their similarities coming in, doesn't apply here.

It's a tough comparison, like I said earlier. Dealing with differences in ages and experience is very difficult.



Plus, Howard's offensive game may need work, but his impact on a game is larger than anyone in the league not named Kobe Bryant or Lebron James. He single-handedly changes opposing teams' offenses, his athletic prowess is untouchable and his offensive game has gotten much better. Hell he lit up Bynum and Gasol when SVG ran iso plays for him in the game against LA tonight, they were forced to double him in the second half at which point SVG decided to stop going to him (what a dumbass).

Let me put it this way, find me one GM/Owner of any basketball team in this world (no make-believe guys allowed), who would choose Brook Lopez over Dwight Howard to start their franchise.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this.

What you fail to realize, however, is that it does not, in itself, determine whether Howard is a "franchise player."

heatking
01-19-2010, 11:47 PM
wade, kobe, lebron, cp3, dwill, roy, durant, dirk, melo.

Stunner
01-20-2010, 12:26 AM
i agree with yu 100%. jordanbulls should list these things in the thread, so peopel dont go bashing each others opinions.

jus like u bashing rose huh?

MajorFloridaFan
01-21-2010, 04:49 AM
It's a tough comparison, like I said earlier. Dealing with differences in ages and experience is very difficult.



I don't necessarily disagree with any of this.

What you fail to realize, however, is that it does not, in itself, determine whether Howard is a "franchise player."

Philab we just explained why he is and u said it yourself.....if a dude impacts a game like kobe or lebron without being them...its called franchise player...Ben wallce was a franchise man for a short minute but the man was the heart of that team...rebounds blocked shots...and they went to the ecf every year it seemed like...thats what dwight does for us..ill say it again..he was dpoy and led the league in rebounds and blocked shots last year....franchise..we complain about his offense but he averages 20 a game on top of his other stats..ben averaged 5......ill take 20 13 and 2 blocks any day cuz that might turn into a 20 20 8 who else in this league is capable of that

bbcmillionaire
01-21-2010, 06:06 AM
dam never realized the rose hate in the nba forum
but riddle me this batman if rose was on your favorite teams, how many of you wouldnt consider him an allstar? muhahahah(riddler laugh) lol

philab
01-21-2010, 08:50 AM
Philab we just explained why he is and u said it yourself.....if a dude impacts a game like kobe or lebron without being them...its called franchise player...Ben wallce was a franchise man for a short minute but the man was the heart of that team...rebounds blocked shots...and they went to the ecf every year it seemed like...thats what dwight does for us..ill say it again..he was dpoy and led the league in rebounds and blocked shots last year....franchise..we complain about his offense but he averages 20 a game on top of his other stats..ben averaged 5......ill take 20 13 and 2 blocks any day cuz that might turn into a 20 20 8 who else in this league is capable of that

No, I didn't say that.

All of that is great, but it is not determinative of "franchise player." I've been through this.

And Ben Wallace was most certainly not a franchise player.

RaptorizedKevin
02-25-2010, 08:42 PM
jus like u bashing rose huh?

Qoute me. everyone is entitled to their opionion. If you said negetive things bout bosh, do i have a right to call it bashing, no i dont. thats ur opinion, its not a fact, so who cares. you dont need to be biased and defend your home team's players.

JordansBulls
02-25-2010, 09:06 PM
I think D.Rose is turning into one. He could be that Isiah Thomas type of franchise player.

Lizard King
02-25-2010, 09:27 PM
Rose is not a francaise player. my gosh.

Pierce
Wade
Melo
Lebron
Durant
Dwight howard
CP3
Dirk Novikski
Tim Duncan
Kobe

Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski


How in the hell is Rose a franchise player lol???

silly bulls fans

Your franchise player just happens to consider Rose as the Bulls' franchise player. You going to argue against Kobe now?


Isiah build a team around starbury!

Is he a franchise player?

MY GOODNESS, WHAT AN AMAZING LOGIC! YOU HAVE CONVINCED THE WORLD THAT ROSE IS INDEED NOT A FRANCHISE PLAYER JUST BY THAT STATEMENT! PROPS TO YOU, MY FRIEND.

JordansBulls
02-26-2010, 09:24 AM
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski



Your franchise player just happens to consider Rose as the Bulls' franchise player. You going to argue against Kobe now?



MY GOODNESS, WHAT AN AMAZING LOGIC! YOU HAVE CONVINCED THE WORLD THAT ROSE IS INDEED NOT A FRANCHISE PLAYER JUST BY THAT STATEMENT! PROPS TO YOU, MY FRIEND.

:laugh2:

Jaji
02-26-2010, 11:01 AM
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski
Novikski

Wow if I was gonna grossly misspell his name like that I would at least try to be a bit more discreet about it.

Jaji
02-26-2010, 11:03 AM
There are only 3 franchise players in the NBA right now: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Kevin Durant. They are the only ones who can lead a team of scrubs to the playoffs all by themselves.

Draco
02-26-2010, 11:23 AM
Charley Rosen's take... I thought about posting this earlier but I'm not sure anyone cares since the definition of "franchise player" is so arbitrary and since most people in the thread haven't thought to use one.


I’ve seen this term used frequently, but I really don’t know what constitutes a “franchise player.” Please enlighten me. – Frank Shipman

The term refers to a player who has all of the following characteristics: He’s a dependable go-to scorer but is still unselfish enough to make his teammates better than they would be without him on the scene. Besides scoring clutch baskets, he can come up with key rebounds, steals, blocked shots, passes, screens, loose balls, deflections, box-outs, defensive stops and/or rotations — whatever is necessary to win a tight ball game.

He must be healthy enough to play every day. He has to practice hard and always be prepared to play. He must be so talented and so competitive that an excellent team can be built around his specific skills. And he has to be a law-abiding citizen with a positive and supportive presence in the locker room.

That’s why these guys are so hard to find.

The list includes Tim Duncan, LeBron, Kobe, D-Wade, perhaps Andrew Bynum in five years, Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy, Deron Williams and maybe Yao Ming if he can make a successful return to action.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/q%2526a%253A-how-good-can-lebron-be%253F

mikantsass
02-26-2010, 11:29 AM
[QUOTE=Jaji;12433615]There are only 3 franchise players in the NBA right now: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Kevin Durant. They are the only ones who can lead a team of scrubs to the playoffs all by themselvesQUOTE]

Wade? Duncan? Melo? Dirk?

masalex1205
02-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Rose ca't touch Durant

REIDYREID
02-26-2010, 11:45 AM
lol

Bro I understand the lake show is doing there thing nd u guys def have a franchise player lol no disputing that. but what makes rose NOT a future franchise threat?? The kid is 21 hes averaging 20 ppg nd should have more but the ankle injury hurt his stats early in the season. Lastly hes on a team full of role players and border line bench warmers. When on the lakers would u EVER see pargo play? The answer is maybe if there beating philly by 40. Rose will be just fine hes gonna be a franchise pg in this league not even being a homer if u guys cant see it then u have never played basketball or dont kno how to judge talent

koreancabbage
02-26-2010, 12:53 PM
just take a look at the MVP rankings on NBA.com, you'll find the MOST or ALL of the true franchise players are on that list.

raidersrock99
02-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Chris Bosh
Tyreke Evansmore people have to mention him
Kobe
DWade
Melo
Durant
Amare
Brandon Roy
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
and some more

JordansBulls
02-26-2010, 06:54 PM
Rose ca't touch Durant

Not this year he can't.

J_M_B
02-26-2010, 08:27 PM
Not that many..

J_M_B
02-26-2010, 08:29 PM
I'll say...

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Durant
Carmelo
Howard
C.Paul
D.Williams
Dirk
Duncan
Roy

Probably could add a couple more...

Bashna
02-26-2010, 08:29 PM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Steve Nash
Deron Williams

yup.

J_M_B
02-26-2010, 08:30 PM
Not this year he can't.

For real, Rose will never come close to Durant.

Bashna
02-26-2010, 08:32 PM
Not this year he can't.

I don't think rose will EVER be as good, or even close to touching durant.

J_M_B
02-26-2010, 08:39 PM
I don't think rose will EVER be as good, or even close to touching durant.

+1

He'll still be a very good point guard, though.

Bashna
02-26-2010, 08:42 PM
+1

He'll still be a very good point guard, though.


No doubting that.

JordansBulls
02-27-2010, 01:40 AM
I'll say...

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Durant
Carmelo
Howard
C.Paul
D.Williams
Dirk
Duncan
Roy

Probably could add a couple more...

Why are Deron Williams and Brandon Roy franchise players, but Rose not?

TheKing23
02-27-2010, 01:56 AM
Why are Deron Williams and Brandon Roy franchise players, but Rose not?

Because they are both a hell of a lot better than him.

JordansBulls
02-27-2010, 02:01 PM
Because they are both a hell of a lot better than him.

How so?

Jaji
02-28-2010, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=Jaji;12433615]There are only 3 franchise players in the NBA right now: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Kevin Durant. They are the only ones who can lead a team of scrubs to the playoffs all by themselvesQUOTE]

Wade? Duncan? Melo? Dirk?

Wade? No. He's barely got a decent Miami team in the playoff race in weak East. Put him on the Nets and he'd drop 30 ppg for a NON PLAYOFF team. Put LBJ, Kobe, or Durant (the new kid) on the Nets and they're a playoff team.

Duncan is too old and needs help. Dirk and Melo, like Wade and Duncan are very good/great palyers, I won't deny that fact, but they're not that type of player. They both play on decent teams that would be playoff contenders without them. They cannot completely turn a franchise around on their own like the 3 I mentioned.

The measuring stick is the Nets. Put a guy on the Nets and if there is NO DOUBT that the Nets instantly become a playoff team then you have THAT type of guy. I don't know a whole lot of guys who can instantly, without a doubt, make the Nets contenders. In fact, I can only think of 3.

Jaji
02-28-2010, 01:50 PM
^^^ I can't stand when people mess up the quotes :pity:.

JordansBulls
02-28-2010, 06:47 PM
^^^ I can't stand when people mess up the quotes :pity:.

:confused:

Lizard King
03-01-2010, 10:14 PM
Because they are both a hell of a lot better than him.

Obviously. Rose has so many haters because he's such a bad player.

Mr.WhiteSox
03-01-2010, 10:33 PM
69

TheWatcher34
03-01-2010, 10:35 PM
Blake Griffin. Read my definition.

yeah Griffin is a biest he completely changed the face of greater LA this season

Quikdraw
03-01-2010, 10:53 PM
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Brandon Roy
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant

MacFitz92
03-01-2010, 10:55 PM
Considering Nowitzki is coming on to be a darkhorse MVP candidate, and probably has the best chance other than LeBron, I'm shocked to see people leaving him off.

MacFitz92
03-01-2010, 10:57 PM
[QUOTE=mikantsass;12433768]

Wade? No. He's barely got a decent Miami team in the playoff race in weak East. Put him on the Nets and he'd drop 30 ppg for a NON PLAYOFF team. Put LBJ, Kobe, or Durant (the new kid) on the Nets and they're a playoff team.

Duncan is too old and needs help. Dirk and Melo, like Wade and Duncan are very good/great palyers, I won't deny that fact, but they're not that type of player. They both play on decent teams that would be playoff contenders without them. They cannot completely turn a franchise around on their own like the 3 I mentioned.

The measuring stick is the Nets. Put a guy on the Nets and if there is NO DOUBT that the Nets instantly become a playoff team then you have THAT type of guy. I don't know a whole lot of guys who can instantly, without a doubt, make the Nets contenders. In fact, I can only think of 3.

:facepalm: You come across as a joke.

Vinny642
03-01-2010, 11:02 PM
:facepalm: You come across as a joke.

It better be lol or that poster is a joke.

JordansBulls
03-03-2010, 11:47 PM
Considering Nowitzki is coming on to be a darkhorse MVP candidate, and probably has the best chance other than LeBron, I'm shocked to see people leaving him off.

also a former MVP player.

SteveNash
03-04-2010, 01:49 AM
Considering Nowitzki is coming on to be a darkhorse MVP candidate, and probably has the best chance other than LeBron, I'm shocked to see people leaving him off.

He's 31.

I'd say there's only a few true franchise players in the NBA.

sargon21
03-04-2010, 01:53 AM
ok, what makes ppl put brandon roy as a franchise player and not rose? rose is avg like only 2ppg less, 1 apg more, shooting a higher fg%, roy is 25 in his 4th year and rose is 21 in his 2nd year, so how is rose not and roy a franchise player, btw roy has better talent around him

G-Bay New J
03-04-2010, 01:57 AM
Right now at their age...

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Brandon Roy
Chris Paul
Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant

maybe Dwight Howard, Joe Johnson and Deron Williams

G-Bay New J
03-04-2010, 01:59 AM
ok, what makes ppl put brandon roy as a franchise player and not rose? rose is avg like only 2ppg less, 1 apg more, shooting a higher fg%, roy is 25 in his 4th year and rose is 21 in his 2nd year, so how is rose not and roy a franchise player, btw roy has better talent around him


If he didn't have as much talent around him he would easily average 4-6 ppg more.

sargon21
03-04-2010, 02:06 AM
If he didn't have as much talent around him he would easily average 4-6 ppg more.

hmm maybe but then his fg% would go down and his apg prob go down too, but if roy is in the group, at the very least rose should be considered

G-Bay New J
03-04-2010, 02:19 AM
Let me see hw he handles the playoffs this year if the Bulls get in. If its like last year then I will put him in the conversation.

JordansBulls
03-04-2010, 09:04 AM
hmm maybe but then his fg% would go down and his apg prob go down too, but if roy is in the group, at the very least rose should be considered

He won't be known as a franchise player for another 2-3 years. Hell it took probably about 7-8 years before Pippen would have been known as one.

nolin
03-04-2010, 09:23 AM
Kobe.
Dwight.
Lebron.
Duncan.
Pierce.
Yao.
Nowitzki.
CP3.
Wade.
Durant.
Roy.
Garnett when young.
Bosh.
Melo.

Kg when young? you might as well throw in iverson as young or jordan as young .

nolin
03-04-2010, 09:25 AM
Rose is not a francaise player. my gosh.

Pierce
Wade
Melo
Lebron
Durant
Dwight howard
CP3
Dirk Novikski
Tim Duncan
Kobe

anyone saying rose is not a franchise player is a fool im sorry.

R.A.J.
03-04-2010, 09:44 AM
none.

JordansBulls
03-05-2010, 09:37 AM
anyone saying rose is not a franchise player is a fool im sorry.

:speechless:

MacFitz92
03-05-2010, 09:46 AM
anyone saying rose is not a franchise player is a fool im sorry.

Actually a lot of people would say Rose is not a franchise player.

JordansBulls
03-25-2010, 10:44 AM
Actually a lot of people would say Rose is not a franchise player.

Depends on your term of a franchise player. I think of one as a guy who can lead a team to a title as the man or at least go deep in the playoffs several times as the man on the team.

SchyGuy11
03-25-2010, 10:52 AM
lol

something funny?

JordansBulls
04-02-2010, 04:27 PM
something funny?

:hide:

Lakersfan2483
04-02-2010, 04:32 PM
It all depends on your definition of a franchise player. Obviously guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Howard, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant and Melo are elite players that you can legitimately build a championship contender around.

alencp3
04-02-2010, 06:44 PM
Drew Gooden

FlakeyFool
04-03-2010, 12:01 AM
Peter Jennings

Covert
04-03-2010, 12:46 AM
[QUOTE=mikantsass;12433768]

Wade? No. He's barely got a decent Miami team in the playoff race in weak East. Put him on the Nets and he'd drop 30 ppg for a NON PLAYOFF team. Put LBJ, Kobe, or Durant (the new kid) on the Nets and they're a playoff team.

Duncan is too old and needs help. Dirk and Melo, like Wade and Duncan are very good/great palyers, I won't deny that fact, but they're not that type of player. They both play on decent teams that would be playoff contenders without them. They cannot completely turn a franchise around on their own like the 3 I mentioned.

The measuring stick is the Nets. Put a guy on the Nets and if there is NO DOUBT that the Nets instantly become a playoff team then you have THAT type of guy. I don't know a whole lot of guys who can instantly, without a doubt, make the Nets contenders. In fact, I can only think of 3.

If you measure a franchise player by whether or not he could put the Nets or any other team in the playoffs, I think you are measuring how good the player is and not whether or not he is a franchise player. I think a franchise player is somebody that you could build around to make a franchise good immediately or in the future who not only posses good skill but leadership. Kobe didn't make the playoffs in 2005 but that doesn't mean he wasn't a franchise player in 2005.

JordansBulls
04-03-2010, 09:21 AM
Peter Jennings

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_wtf.gif