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JordansBulls
01-13-2010, 09:32 PM
What was the last year Tim Duncan was the best player in the NBA?

Raps18-19 Champ
01-13-2010, 10:17 PM
Last time he won MVP.

Or was at least top 3 in MVP consideration.

Strumpy
01-13-2010, 10:36 PM
Last time he won MVP.

Or was at least top 3 in MVP consideration.

This.

Lost Art
01-13-2010, 10:37 PM
Not sure he ever was. With Tim Duncan its more about the body of work. IMO it went straight from MJ to Shaq to Kobe

JordansBulls
01-13-2010, 10:52 PM
2003 IMO he was because the man won league and finals mvp the same year.

After that is where one starts to wonder if he was the best. Maybe 2005 he could have been said to be the best as well.

smith&wesson
01-13-2010, 11:06 PM
duncan has had an oustanding career, the spurs have never missed a play off apearance since he was drafter. imo he was probably the best player last time he got mvp. or the last time the spurs won a ship. probably the same year.

Raph12
01-13-2010, 11:20 PM
Define best player

Wisdom Listens
01-13-2010, 11:37 PM
Define best player

^^

Joshtd1
01-13-2010, 11:38 PM
Not sure, but speaking of Duncan..Blair has a 28 pt 21 rebound game tonight..the only other rookie to do that was Tim Duncan.

bbcmillionaire
01-13-2010, 11:53 PM
Not sure, but speaking of Duncan..Blair has a 28 pt 21 rebound game tonight..the only other rookie to do that was Tim Duncan.

timmy teaching that boy well

Joshtd1
01-13-2010, 11:57 PM
As for Duncan..I still think hes a top 5 player every year. But he was the best player for sure when he won his last MVP.

_KB24_
01-13-2010, 11:58 PM
What was the first year? :shrug:

Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, and even Garnett have better claims to being the best player in the league over the past decade when going by individual years.

COBY KARL
01-14-2010, 12:06 AM
What was the first year? :shrug:

Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, and even Garnett have better claims to being the best player in the league over the past decade when going by individual years.

Iverson and Garnett don't have better claims because they didn't have as much success as Duncan. Sure, they're stats may have been better...but when your Tim Duncan all you can show for is 4 rings within ten years.. as opposed to AI's 0 rings and Garnett's one..(which was one out of his prime)

But i agree with most people that he was the best when he won his last MVP.

_KB24_
01-14-2010, 12:35 AM
Iverson and Garnett don't have better claims because they didn't have as much success as Duncan. Sure, they're stats may have been better...but when your Tim Duncan all you can show for is 4 rings within ten years.. as opposed to AI's 0 rings and Garnett's one..(which was one out of his prime)

But i agree with most people that he was the best when he won his last MVP.

This thread is asking for the best player, not MVP, so Iverson and KG have legitimate shots.

2000-Shaq
2001- Iverson
2002-Shaq
2003-Shaq (I want to say T-mac, he had a great year)
2004-09 Kobe

bbcmillionaire
01-14-2010, 12:42 AM
timmys still the greatest pf of all time

kblo247
01-14-2010, 12:43 AM
In 03, Kobe had a better year than Shaq. He averaged 30 and had a stretch of 40+ games to get us up in the standings after the toe fiasco.

Timmy has never been the best undisputed guy in the league, always one of the best but he wins at the end of the day. He is sort of like Bird in that sense and I respect him for that.

I don't think he is the best player in the league now, but I do think he is the best center in the game this season.

ldc62
01-14-2010, 12:51 AM
The year he won MVP. But hes always been in the top 5, just people didn't give him credit.

tdunk21
01-14-2010, 12:51 AM
This thread is asking for the best player, not MVP, so Iverson and KG have legitimate shots.

2000-Shaq
2001- Iverson
2002-Shaq
2003-Shaq (I want to say T-mac, he had a great year)
2004-09 Kobe

:facepalm:

SteveNash
01-14-2010, 12:59 AM
2003.


timmys still the greatest pf of all time

But he's not the greatest Center.

Raph12
01-14-2010, 01:05 AM
2003.



But he's not the greatest Center.

Nobody said that he was the "greatest center of all time" so why even go there?

runforrestrunx9
01-14-2010, 01:26 AM
In 03, Kobe had a better year than Shaq. He averaged 30 and had a stretch of 40+ games to get us up in the standings after the toe fiasco.

Timmy has never been the best undisputed guy in the league, always one of the best but he wins at the end of the day. He is sort of like Bird in that sense and I respect him for that.

I don't think he is the best player in the league now, but I do think he is the best center in the game this season.

id take dwight over him this year... he isnt the same timmy from his primes and dwight is coming into it....

kblo247
01-14-2010, 01:30 AM
id take dwight over him this year... he isnt the same timmy from his primes and dwight is coming into it....

Dwight isn't better offensively or defensively than current Duncan (man d anyway).

His team can give him the ball and expect him to produce, and the Magic after several years still can't do that consistently.

ldc62
01-14-2010, 02:10 AM
Dwight isn't better offensively or defensively than current Duncan (man d anyway).

His team can give him the ball and expect him to produce, and the Magic after several years still can't do that consistently.


THANK YOU for saying this! Most people know about D12's lack of post offense, but no one talks about his man D. Hes a great help defender, but can't guard big time Centers. Thats why I still don't think he should ever be in the DPOY candidates. I dunno who should win this year, but people have got to put Chuck Hayes (yea yea I know the :facepalm:s are coming). Look at the stats of the players who he guards.

SteveNash
01-14-2010, 02:12 AM
Nobody said that he was the "greatest center of all time" so why even go there?

Because Duncan should be considered a center.

Lakersfan2483
01-14-2010, 02:16 AM
In 03, Kobe had a better year than Shaq. He averaged 30 and had a stretch of 40+ games to get us up in the standings after the toe fiasco.

Timmy has never been the best undisputed guy in the league, always one of the best but he wins at the end of the day. He is sort of like Bird in that sense and I respect him for that.

I don't think he is the best player in the league now, but I do think he is the best center in the game this season.

Completely agree.

kblo247
01-14-2010, 02:18 AM
THANK YOU for saying this! Most people know about D12's lack of post offense, but no one talks about his man D. Hes a great help defender, but can't guard big time Centers. Thats why I still don't think he should ever be in the DPOY candidates. I dunno who should win this year, but people have got to put Chuck Hayes (yea yea I know the :facepalm:s are coming). Look at the stats of the players who he guards.

Dwight is just like Camby and KG. He can be worked if you make him defend his man one on one.

Pau worked him in the Finals, Sheed has worked him on the block, and Kaman/Hibbert have all worked him. Hell a healthy Bynum worked him years ago.

I always say that Bynum and Dwight could teach each other a lot. Dwight is the better rebounder and team defender, but Bynum is by far a better post defender and post scorer. If they actually worked together they could fill their holes.

As for DPOY, I think Hayes deserves a lot of consideration as he is manning the center spot and defending the paint very well but he won't since Dwight does stupid yet jaw dropping **** like swat shots into the stands (tap them to you team).

Kobes a Killer
01-14-2010, 02:23 AM
Ummmm never

IversonIsKrazy
01-14-2010, 02:44 AM
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Iverson
2002 - Iverson
2003 - Shaq
2004 - Shaq
2005 - DUNCAN
2006 PRESENT - Kobe

I would have to say 2005.

C_A_S_H
01-14-2010, 03:01 AM
^^

+1

_KB24_
01-14-2010, 03:04 AM
:facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Rocco007
01-14-2010, 03:12 AM
Duncan has never been the single best player in the NBA...

TornadoOfSouls
01-14-2010, 05:19 AM
2002 and 2003 - Duncan led the league in win shares both years while carrying a team of role players to 50 win seasons. Here's the list:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 9.63 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 20.25 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.79 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 16.34 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.72 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 16.11 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.33 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tim Duncan 16.45 SAS
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.81 SAS
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 14.94 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 18.65 LAL

The better question is when has Kobe/Iverson ever been the best player in the league? Some posters on this forum seem to have trouble looking past ppg.

TornadoOfSouls
01-14-2010, 05:28 AM
What was the first year? :shrug:

Iverson, Shaq, Kobe, and even Garnett have better claims to being the best player in the league over the past decade when going by individual years.

I stopped reading the second you said Iverson. He's NEVER been a better player than Duncan.

stawka
01-14-2010, 06:21 AM
Not sure he ever was. With Tim Duncan its more about the body of work. IMO it went straight from MJ to Shaq to Kobe

This

JordansBulls
01-14-2010, 08:16 AM
This thread is asking for the best player, not MVP, so Iverson and KG have legitimate shots.

2000-Shaq
2001- Iverson
2002-Shaq
2003-Shaq (I want to say T-mac, he had a great year)
2004-09 Kobe

Shaq wasn't even the best player on the Lakers in 2003. Duncan won both MVP and finals mvp.

And Garnett was the best player in 2004.

How the hell could you say Kobe was the best player in 2005 and he didn't even make the playoffs?



There are only 2 ways to determine who the best player in the league is.


1) Winning a Title/MVP/Finals MVP as the best player on the team

or

2) Having the Best Stats in the League (PER, Win Shares (Those are cumulative and based on all players production in the league))



Now if a player doesn't meet either of those criteria, how are they the best in the league?

JayW_1023
01-14-2010, 09:45 AM
The years where he was MVP obviously.

JasonJohnHorn
01-14-2010, 09:53 AM
In all seriousness, I think Tim Duncan has been the best player in the league every year since his sophmore season.

KnicksorBust
01-14-2010, 09:55 AM
2007. 1st Team All-NBA and steam-rolled Nuggets/Suns/Jazz on the way to a sweep of the Cavs where Tony Parker highjacked the Finals MVP.

Chronz
01-14-2010, 12:58 PM
Not sure he ever was. With Tim Duncan its more about the body of work. IMO it went straight from MJ to Shaq to Kobe
Cant say Im surprised

JordansBulls
01-14-2010, 01:04 PM
In all seriousness, I think Tim Duncan has been the best player in the league every year since his sophmore season.

That's taking it a little far. In no way did he have a case over Shaq in 2000. Hell only a few guys have a case over 2000 Shaq in NBA History.

topdog
01-14-2010, 01:22 PM
Ummm... never. Don't get me wrong he's a very good center who's never committed a foul in his life but he's hardly ever even been the best player on his team.

JordansBulls
01-14-2010, 05:47 PM
Ummm... never. Don't get me wrong he's a very good center who's never committed a foul in his life but he's hardly ever even been the best player on his team.

Is this supposed to be comedy hour or something :puke:

That was not a good joke.

I'll like for you to explain who was the best player on the Spurs these years.

1998
1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009

IversonIsKrazy
01-14-2010, 07:37 PM
2005. After that year, Kobe took over since. AI had it for 2 years IMO (2001 & 2002). KG nvr had it IMO.

Chronz
01-14-2010, 07:43 PM
2005. After that year, Kobe took over since. AI had it for 2 years IMO (2001 & 2002). KG nvr had it IMO.

your still waiting for that rebirth arent ya

showtym24
01-14-2010, 09:09 PM
Not sure he ever was. With Tim Duncan its more about the body of work. IMO it went straight from MJ to Shaq to Kobe

agree 100

topdog
01-14-2010, 09:28 PM
Is this supposed to be comedy hour or something :puke:

That was not a good joke.

I'll like for you to explain who was the best player on the Spurs these years.

1998
1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009

Without Robinson, Parker and Ginobli he wouldn't be nearly as celebrated as he is. Those guys have that extra special quality that led to championships. I'm not trying to say Duncan isn't a great player but put him in someone else's situation (like Garnett for instance) and this thread itself would be a joke imo.

_KB24_
01-14-2010, 09:35 PM
Shaq wasn't even the best player on the Lakers in 2003. Duncan won both MVP and finals mvp.
No, it was still very close between Kobe and Shaq, and I gave the advantage to Shaq, he was still the better player. And the thread asked for the "best " player, not the MVP, and Shaq was still the better player than Duncan in 03'.


And Garnett was the best player in 2004.
Ok, I'll agree here. Kobe did not play as much and Garnett was amazing.


How the hell could you say Kobe was the best player in 2005 and he didn't even make the playoffs?
In my eyes, best player in the world, is the one with the most talent. You can say whoever you want, but the Lakers not making the playoffs doesn't undermine Kobe's indvidual talent. More than 90% of the 04' team was not there, new coach, and he had injuries. You can put Timmy or whoever you want, but Kobe was still the better player.


There are only 2 ways to determine who the best player in the league is.


1) Winning a Title/MVP/Finals MVP as the best player on the team

or

2) Having the Best Stats in the League (PER, Win Shares (Those are cumulative and based on all players production in the league))




Now if a player doesn't meet either of those criteria, how are they the best in the league?Your opinion dude, I say whoever is the most talented at the time is a HUGE factor.

ARMIN12NBA
01-14-2010, 09:54 PM
No, it was still very close between Kobe and Shaq, and I gave the advantage to Shaq, he was still the better player. And the thread asked for the "best " player, not the MVP, and Shaq was still the better player than Duncan in 03'.

Eh. He was injured for the beginning part of the year because he intentionally delayed his surgery as he said that an injury on company time should be healed on company time. Then he came back a fat slob and the team could never gel together. He didn't want to conform to taking a backseat to Kobe when Kobe was playing out of his mind. He even said that the dog must be fed for the dog to watch the yard (translation: give me the ball or I am NOT playing defense...he decided to not play defense anyways). As Phil and Kobe said, he was the reason the Lakers lost the chance to win a 4-peat that season.

IMO, the utterly gross display of leadership and respect for the game as well as the fact that he was very out of shape and cost the Lakers a championship makes me side more with the idea that Kobe was better that season (30/7/6 on 45/38; elite defense).

Chronz
01-14-2010, 10:02 PM
I remember Phil saying Kobe always cost the team by not conforming to the triangle until his teammates spoke out. Not going to Shaq isnt something I recall Phill backing, Im pretty sure they all wanted Kobe to stop. Shaq was better in 02-03, **** Kobe wasnt even the best perimeter player that year much less the best player overall. The playoffs cemented the case imo as Kobes level of play dropped.

bagwell368
01-14-2010, 10:58 PM
TD was the best player in the NBA in '01-'02 and '02-'03
KG followed with '03-'04 and '04-'05

HuRRiCaNeS324
01-14-2010, 11:02 PM
Not sure he ever was. With Tim Duncan its more about the body of work. IMO it went straight from MJ to Shaq to Kobe

this

albertc86
01-14-2010, 11:53 PM
I don't think Duncan was ever the best player in the league. Maybe the best team player or teammate but never the best individual player.

_KB24_
01-15-2010, 12:07 AM
Eh. He was injured for the beginning part of the year because he intentionally delayed his surgery as he said that an injury on company time should be healed on company time. Then he came back a fat slob and the team could never gel together. He didn't want to conform to taking a backseat to Kobe when Kobe was playing out of his mind. He even said that the dog must be fed for the dog to watch the yard (translation: give me the ball or I am NOT playing defense...he decided to not play defense anyways). As Phil and Kobe said, he was the reason the Lakers lost the chance to win a 4-peat that season.

IMO, the utterly gross display of leadership and respect for the game as well as the fact that he was very out of shape and cost the Lakers a championship makes me side more with the idea that Kobe was better that season (30/7/6 on 45/38; elite defense).

Dude Shaq still averaged something like 27 and 13? Shaq was still the more dominant player.

ARMIN12NBA
01-15-2010, 12:08 AM
I remember Phil saying Kobe always cost the team by not conforming to the triangle until his teammates spoke out. Not going to Shaq isnt something I recall Phill backing, Im pretty sure they all wanted Kobe to stop. Shaq was better in 02-03, **** Kobe wasnt even the best perimeter player that year much less the best player overall. The playoffs cemented the case imo as Kobes level of play dropped.

Eh, not really.

1. Shaq said, "Feed the dog so he guards the yard." A player who refuses to play defense is better than an elite defense? Odd. Shaq also did say the "company time" bit.

2. Phil did say that Shaq missing the beginning of the season and coming back out of shape cost them the championship.

Did he believe Kobe wasn't conforming to the triangle? Maybe, but the fact remained that the team outside of Kobe and Shaq was pathetic and Shaq was out of shape, lazy, and literally not trying on defense.

_KB24_
01-15-2010, 12:12 AM
I remember Phil saying Kobe always cost the team by not conforming to the triangle until his teammates spoke out. Not going to Shaq isnt something I recall Phill backing, Im pretty sure they all wanted Kobe to stop. Shaq was better in 02-03, **** Kobe wasnt even the best perimeter player that year much less the best player overall. The playoffs cemented the case imo as Kobes level of play dropped.

Thanks for sharing with us a pile of BS. How did his level of play drop? He had virtually the same numbers except scoring more. 32 5 5 on 44/40 % shooting. I know your going to bring in Tmac so go ahead........Kobe was still the better player.

ARMIN12NBA
01-15-2010, 12:13 AM
Dude Shaq still averaged something like 27 and 13? Shaq was still the more dominant player.

Dude, I totally understand that, but...

1. He averaged 27 and 11, which is awesome.

2. He intentionally missed games on a team he knew had NO depth.

3. He came back out of shape.

4. He REFUSED to play defense...officially becoming a liability on that end and making it that much harder on an already beaten up and short handed squad.

I understand numbers...But I also look at defense (non-existent), leadership (negative role), and overall attitude and professionalism (again, the guy intentionally sat out 15+ games).

kblo247
01-15-2010, 12:16 AM
I remember Phil saying Kobe always cost the team by not conforming to the triangle until his teammates spoke out. Not going to Shaq isnt something I recall Phill backing, Im pretty sure they all wanted Kobe to stop. Shaq was better in 02-03, **** Kobe wasnt even the best perimeter player that year much less the best player overall. The playoffs cemented the case imo as Kobes level of play dropped.

You are talking about the second title season, 00-01 where Kobe admittedly came out the gate trying to prove that he wasn't content with being the same player, while Shaq came in out of shape. Then he got hurt, saw what the team needed, reformed his game, and LA swept everyone out West.

In 02-03 the Lakers needs a Kobe scoring bananza in January and February to make a race from the bottom 8 standings wise. He led the team with 30ppg and was the best player versus the Spurs and T-Wolves on both ends of the court in the playoffs with a separated shoulder and a bad knee (surgeries that he went to Colarado for).

Here's the streak - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKdfkCg6UDU&feature=PlayList&p=349865072386C799&index=0

Phil admits to telling Kobe lead them, this is your team when they were struggling and he took the reins without a problem which is when he and Shaq first started butting heads

-----

In 04 he was the number 1 guy on the team that went to the finals and both Payton and Malone have said that.

------

05 wasn't his or the Lakers year as that was just a mess with the coaching changes, injuries, retirements, and Vanessa's spat with Malone and miscarriage.

It damn sure wasn't KG's either as his team imploded.

-----

06-now Kobe is still talked about by the analyst and players as the best in the game.

In all honesty Kobe is and always has been the Spurs/Duncan's kryptonite ever since he the millennium.

_KB24_
01-15-2010, 12:27 AM
Dude, I totally understand that, but...

1. He averaged 27 and 11, which is awesome.

2. He intentionally missed games on a team he knew had NO depth.

3. He came back out of shape.

4. He REFUSED to play defense...officially becoming a liability on that end and making it that much harder on an already beaten up and short handed squad.

I understand numbers...But I also look at defense (non-existent), leadership (negative role), and overall attitude and professionalism (again, the guy intentionally sat out 15+ games).

Damn, when you say it like that, hard not to agree :cool:

kblo247
01-15-2010, 12:44 AM
Dude, I totally understand that, but...

1. He averaged 27 and 11, which is awesome.

2. He intentionally missed games on a team he knew had NO depth.

3. He came back out of shape.

4. He REFUSED to play defense...officially becoming a liability on that end and making it that much harder on an already beaten up and short handed squad.

I understand numbers...But I also look at defense (non-existent), leadership (negative role), and overall attitude and professionalism (again, the guy intentionally sat out 15+ games).

You are pissing me off by making me think of that year as Horry, Shaw, and Fox all ran out of gas because of him since they were buying time playing small ball or using Madsen.

Then the fact that he threw Fish under the bus and pointed out it was his fault for not containing Hudson or Parker (though he never covered a damn pick or roll) as well as Horry's for not hitting his 3s that they lost.

Shaq killed the team that year and honestly stopped Phil's best chance of a 4 peat

flea
01-15-2010, 12:49 AM
Without Robinson, Parker and Ginobli he wouldn't be nearly as celebrated as he is. Those guys have that extra special quality that led to championships. I'm not trying to say Duncan isn't a great player but put him in someone else's situation (like Garnett for instance) and this thread itself would be a joke imo.
The only thing that's a joke is someone suggesting that Parker and Ginobili are anything more than average NBA guards. Both are defensive liabilities and one-dimensional offensive players (Parker with his driving ability, which is all that sets up his modest assist numbers, and Ginobili with his shooting). Bruce Bowen probably has more to do with the 03, 05, and 07 titles than either one of them. As for Robinson, he was already aging in 99 (but still pretty dominant) and basically had nothing to do with the 03 title when Duncan put that team on his back.

You could put any defensively challenged guard in the league in place of Parker or Ginobili and Duncan still would have gotten his titles (Hamilton, Redd, Allen, Carter, Richardson, Johnson, Williams, Martin, Iguodala, and probably half of these guys are better than Parker and Ginobili). The Spurs won (and still win) with good team defense that is made into great team defense because Duncan erases so many mistakes with help defense and shot-blocking (sadly not as much anymore as he once did).

kblo247
01-15-2010, 12:51 AM
Tony and Manu are many things but they aren't defensively challenged by any means. They only have problems when they get overpowered so don't dismiss them and act like they are matatdors on the perimeter.

flea
01-15-2010, 01:11 AM
Neither has the athleticism to be a good on-ball defender nor the size to defend effectively off the ball. They are perhaps adequate, but Parker plays a position that doesn't require much defense (as he routinely defends the worst guard on the court) while Ginobili wouldn't be a 6th man all these years if his defense was up to Pop's expectations.

Tony_Starks
01-15-2010, 01:29 AM
The last time they beat out the Lakers and played Detroit in the finals.... I think 05? that was his last dominant year.

KeithLBC
01-15-2010, 01:32 AM
I don't think he was ever the "best" in the league. IMO, he's been top 5 for pretty much most of his career, but never the "best".

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 01:43 AM
Without Robinson, Parker and Ginobli he wouldn't be nearly as celebrated as he is. Those guys have that extra special quality that led to championships. I'm not trying to say Duncan isn't a great player but put him in someone else's situation (like Garnett for instance) and this thread itself would be a joke imo.

Umm, Robinson was done after 1998. Parker was the 29th pick and Manu the 57th pick.

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 01:45 AM
Dude Shaq still averaged something like 27 and 13? Shaq was still the more dominant player.

in 2003 and 2004 when Kobe and Shaq played together,
Kobe was the best player on the team and thus the man.
Kobe finished higher in MVP voting in 2003 which was #3 (Shaq was 5th) and he
finished higher in MVP voting in 2004 (#5) (Shaq was 6th) and led the team in scoring and win shares.

Chronz
01-15-2010, 02:12 AM
Eh, not really.

1. Shaq said, "Feed the dog so he guards the yard." A player who refuses to play defense is better than an elite defense? Odd. Shaq also did say the "company time" bit.

2. Phil did say that Shaq missing the beginning of the season and coming back out of shape cost them the championship.

Did he believe Kobe wasn't conforming to the triangle? Maybe, but the fact remained that the team outside of Kobe and Shaq was pathetic and Shaq was out of shape, lazy, and literally not trying on defense.

I do remember Shaqs tirade but in all honesty he has a point. Its one Phil Jackson shared about playing inside out. Shaq being the better player, should have a say on how the team plays.

2 Phil has said alot of stuff over the years but can you share the linkage?

The company time was his choice and one I dont blame him for, considering the pounding he takes, hes the only guy who has a say on how he should pace himself.

Chronz
01-15-2010, 02:14 AM
Thanks for sharing with us a pile of BS. How did his level of play drop? He had virtually the same numbers except scoring more. 32 5 5 on 44/40 % shooting. I know your going to bring in Tmac so go ahead........Kobe was still the better player.
Did he really, considering it was against the Spurs and Twolves its pretty impressive. I take it back, he still wasnt Tmac good

iluvsports2much
01-15-2010, 02:15 AM
i think its more like when was timmy ever the best player in the NBA??? he was always a top 5 player,but during his time shaq was on top,and Tmac was there and vincanity and Jkidd and reggie miller...i think he was closest to the top in 2003 when in the finals he almost averaged a quad double...but he was never the best cuz shaq was so much more dominant on offense and almost as good on defense

Chronz
01-15-2010, 02:22 AM
Phil admits to telling Kobe lead them, this is your team when they were struggling and he took the reins without a problem which is when he and Shaq first started butting heads

-----

Yea just like when Shaq said Kobe is the greatest player hes ever seen or something right, when they were teammates. Its about the timing of those words, I remember Phil telling Kobe to play this way when Shaq was out, but when Shaq came back, thats when the offense had to change back to what was proven.


In 04 he was the number 1 guy on the team that went to the finals and both Payton and Malone have said that.
I couldve sworn they came to LA because of Shaq even after the Spurs beat them, and wouldve stayed had Shaq stayed, then GP proceeded to following Shaq in Miami. I dont remember them ever saying Kobe was the better player.

------


05 wasn't his or the Lakers year as that was just a mess with the coaching changes, injuries, retirements, and Vanessa's spat with Malone and miscarriage.
His first year as the man outside the triangle and he couldnt handle it, Shaq, Dirk or Duncan were the leagues best players.

-----


06-now Kobe is still talked about by the analyst and players as the best in the game.

In all honesty Kobe is and always has been the Spurs/Duncan's kryptonite ever since he the millennium.
Probably

kblo247
01-15-2010, 02:38 AM
Yea just like when Shaq said Kobe is the greatest player hes ever seen or something right, when they were teammates. Its about the timing of those words, I remember Phil telling Kobe to play this way when Shaq was out, but when Shaq came back, thats when the offense had to change back to what was proven.

The riming of the words are important but in all honesty the team as a whole struggled to fit Shaq back in on both ends. On offense the old guys had dead legs since they were only 6 deep most of the year without him. Fisher, George, and Kobe were the only young guys on that squad.

You can't excuse Shaq refusing to fit in with what was working like he said Kobe should do and did in 01. The fact is he pouted, didn't work his way into shape, and played zero defense and that bit LA in the ***.



I couldve sworn they came to LA because of Shaq even after the Spurs beat them, and wouldve stayed had Shaq stayed, then GP proceeded to following Shaq in Miami. I dont remember them ever saying Kobe was the better player.

Yeah, they came because Shaq tossed Horry under the bus and blamed Fish publicly while never acknowledging he killed the team that year. They also brought in Russell and Grant at his request to appease him like they had done in the when he bumped heads with Jones, Van Exel, and Campbell.

Malone would have been a Laker had he not been hunting Mexican girls since he was still under contract and Payton got traded to Boston. Malone called Shaq out their year together and talked about how lazy he was, and Payton in the second round said they wouldn't have been where they were at without Kobe.


His first year as the man outside the triangle and he couldnt handle it, Shaq, Dirk or Duncan were the leagues best players.

Him averaging basically 25-6-6 under Rudy and LA having been on pace for the 5th seed out west before Odom got injured, though Kobe-LO-Butler only played 40 games together would agree ;)

It was a bad year for the team and a bad year for him all around like I said when they decided to jump back to the triangle.

I personally think T-Mac was greater that year but that is me.

_KB24_
01-15-2010, 02:56 AM
Did he really, considering it was against the Spurs and Twolves its pretty impressive. I take it back, he still wasnt Tmac good

I actually will go as far say that they were on par. Tmac was beastly back than but lately I've hated the guy. I loved watching the go at it and it's really a shame of what has become of Tmac.

asmarks18
01-15-2010, 03:03 AM
Never. He is overrated lmao. His last MVP though in all seriousness.

MTar786
01-15-2010, 03:08 AM
the only year tim was the best player (i dont count mvps.. mvp awards are a joke now days.

the only year he was the best was in the 04-05 season.
from 99-04 shaq was the best
04-05 tim was
05-now.. kobe

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 10:01 AM
the only year tim was the best player (i dont count mvps.. mvp awards are a joke now days.

the only year he was the best was in the 04-05 season.
from 99-04 shaq was the best
04-05 tim was
05-now.. kobe

Shaq wasn't even the best on the Lakers in 2003 or 2004.

illegallover
01-15-2010, 02:03 PM
Big aristotle was the best player bay FAR in 2003 2004

let's close this thread..

Chronz
01-15-2010, 03:50 PM
The riming of the words are important but in all honesty the team as a whole struggled to fit Shaq back in on both ends. On offense the old guys had dead legs since they were only 6 deep most of the year without him. Fisher, George, and Kobe were the only young guys on that squad.
Dont remind me of how negligent the franchise was back then, thats really when my hatred for Kupcek began, he was given a title contender and he let it get old. He routinely passed on depth and used the money overpaying to keep players like Deaven around. But really them losing their legs shouldnt be held against Shaq. Its not like their work load was insane, and its not Shaqs job to supply the team with free agents (even though he did when he got Gary and Malone to come for dirt cheap).


You can't excuse Shaq refusing to fit in with what was working like he said Kobe should do and did in 01. The fact is he pouted, didn't work his way into shape, and played zero defense and that bit LA in the ***.
What was working? The way they were playing offensively wasnt what got them championships, I can definitely excuses Shaq for wanting to play Inside-THEN-Out. Alot of things bit them in the *** that year. The whithering of the supporting cast mostly.




Yeah, they came because Shaq tossed Horry under the bus and blamed Fish publicly while never acknowledging he killed the team that year. They also brought in Russell and Grant at his request to appease him like they had done in the when he bumped heads with Jones, Van Exel, and Campbell.
Just gos to show how smart of a GM Shaq is. Jones was a choker and Nick was a guy who only wanted to slack off. Shaq isnt the kind to admit his faults up front, so hes not without mistakes, but those moves were great decisions.
He did show up fat and lessned his dominance, but after so many years dominating the way he did, it shouldnt take you so long to upgrade the core around him. That team shouldve been prepared for Shaqs decline a long time ago, maybe they had hoped Kobe developed into a MJ type player who could win regardless, so long as he had some kind of dominance next to him, I dont know. All I know is that even when you take into account all of Shaqs flaws, hes STILL better than Kobe was that year.




Malone would have been a Laker had he not been hunting Mexican girls since he was still under contract and Payton got traded to Boston. Malone called Shaq out their year together and talked about how lazy he was, and Payton in the second round said they wouldn't have been where they were at without Kobe.
Malone wouldnt have been a Laker without Shaq. GP got traded but he still followed Shaq afterwards. I have no doubt if you asked both of them, they will say Shaq was the primary reason they went to LA, they may like Kobes work ethic better, but they dont overrate where it places him.




Him averaging basically 25-6-6 under Rudy and LA having been on pace for the 5th seed out west before Odom got injured, though Kobe-LO-Butler only played 40 games together would agree ;)
Dig deeper into your analysis and you'll see what Im talking about. Kobe stats were horrible, the teams SRS was putrid despite their record.


It was a bad year for the team and a bad year for him all around like I said when they decided to jump back to the triangle.
It was the triangle that saved Kobes individual season, and brought out the best in Caron. But without Odom the team lost far more than I expected, they were like 2-22 at one point I think.



I personally think T-Mac was greater that year but that is me.
Tmac had Shaqs offensive #'s, and at his position (in the playoffs) was a dominant defender, but I cant put him on the big fellas level. Even if their impact level were identical, the mere fact that Shaq gives it to you at a spot where his production is at a premium, makes him more valuable and a better player overall.

Chronz
01-15-2010, 03:54 PM
Shaq wasn't even the best on the Lakers in 2003 or 2004.
Yup just like Gary Payton was better than Karl Malone right :rolleyes:

Chronz
01-15-2010, 04:06 PM
in 2003 and 2004 when Kobe and Shaq played together,
Kobe was the best player on the team and thus the man.
You have to prove this BEFORE saying it



Kobe finished higher in MVP voting in 2003 which was #3 (Shaq was 5th) and he
finished higher in MVP voting in 2004 (#5) (Shaq was 6th) and led the team in scoring and win shares.
Except that nobody was saying Shaq was more durable than Kobe, but when hes actually on the court hes a better player. I cant believe your citing WinShares, you CONSTANTLY explain how its a cumulative stat, talk about selective bias, why dont you look at their WS Rates?

Kobe has rated below alot of inferior players throughout his career by MVP ranks, the rankings are telling of how successful a season a player had not whos the superior player, or do you really think Penny was better than Shaq? (Kobe played all 82 and put up 30-6-7 with OK defense) Shaq as dominant as he still was only played 67 (the same amount of games he always played at the time and why he wasnt MVP winner each year).

Shaq was never the kind of player able to sustain the rigors of a FULL 82 game season. His playing style just isnt built for that, what it is built for is destroying teams in the playoffs. As a result Shaq actually took Phils advice (of saving his body) to the extreme by using the regular season to work into the playoffs. Remember Shaq USED to be the kind of guy to come into the season ready to go, all that led was to injuries at the wrong time instead of a time of his choosing, heck he even bought into everyones theory about him being fat and lazy and decided to go back to the route of going all out to start the season when he got traded to Miami. Remember how that ended, sure Miami had the top seed but he was injured for the playoffs and all those regular season wins meant nothing.

Yet another reason why your HCA theory doesnt hold up when compared to contextualized expected win loss record.

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 04:08 PM
Big aristotle was the best player bay FAR in 2003 2004

let's close this thread..

He wasn't no best player by far in 2004. Wasn't even the best player on the Lakers during the season that year.

topdog
01-15-2010, 04:57 PM
The only thing that's a joke is someone suggesting that Parker and Ginobili are anything more than average NBA guards. Both are defensive liabilities and one-dimensional offensive players (Parker with his driving ability, which is all that sets up his modest assist numbers, and Ginobili with his shooting). Bruce Bowen probably has more to do with the 03, 05, and 07 titles than either one of them. As for Robinson, he was already aging in 99 (but still pretty dominant) and basically had nothing to do with the 03 title when Duncan put that team on his back.

You could put any defensively challenged guard in the league in place of Parker or Ginobili and Duncan still would have gotten his titles (Hamilton, Redd, Allen, Carter, Richardson, Johnson, Williams, Martin, Iguodala, and probably half of these guys are better than Parker and Ginobili). The Spurs won (and still win) with good team defense that is made into great team defense because Duncan erases so many mistakes with help defense and shot-blocking (sadly not as much anymore as he once did).

Allen and Johnson are big contract players who either are or were franchise players. Hamilton wasn't defensively challenged on those good Detroit teams either.

The fact of the matter is without Ginobli the Spurs generally play poorly. And whether or not Parker and Ginobli are one-dimensional players or not, nine tenths of the league can't stop them from being the deciding factor in a game whether it's Parker driving to the rim for 40 pts off layups and foul shots or Ginobli draining threes and throwing up circus shots.

Yeah Duncan's a good defender but so was Kevin Garnett who was just as good if not better offensively and pulled down more rebounds. I guess it's a matter of how you value players. "Best" certainly is not a qualitative quality gained from simple math but to win in this league you need dynamic guards nowadays. I don't care how many shots Duncan alters or blocks, if he doesn't have Ginobli down on the other end draining a three he's no better off than the guy he just blocked.

Chronz
01-15-2010, 05:01 PM
I forgot there was another debate going on, yea the bit about Manu being a liability is wrong, maybe now but not then. Hes not one dimensional, well in the sense that he relied heavily on set skill shooting to set up a ridiculous slashing game with better court vision than most players at his position then yea, thats one dimensional. Luckily that 1 dimension was dominant

TP was a choker even during the title years until his breakout vs Cleveland but Manu was a beast back in the day.

viictoor
01-15-2010, 05:20 PM
he never have been the best player in the nba

JordansBulls
01-15-2010, 05:25 PM
Yup just like Gary Payton was better than Karl Malone right :rolleyes:

:confused:

flea
01-16-2010, 06:53 PM
Allen and Johnson are big contract players who either are or were franchise players. Hamilton wasn't defensively challenged on those good Detroit teams either.

The fact of the matter is without Ginobli the Spurs generally play poorly. And whether or not Parker and Ginobli are one-dimensional players or not, nine tenths of the league can't stop them from being the deciding factor in a game whether it's Parker driving to the rim for 40 pts off layups and foul shots or Ginobli draining threes and throwing up circus shots.

Yeah Duncan's a good defender but so was Kevin Garnett who was just as good if not better offensively and pulled down more rebounds. I guess it's a matter of how you value players. "Best" certainly is not a qualitative quality gained from simple math but to win in this league you need dynamic guards nowadays. I don't care how many shots Duncan alters or blocks, if he doesn't have Ginobli down on the other end draining a three he's no better off than the guy he just blocked.
I didn't say they weren't essential to winning - I said they were highly replaceable. More than half the teams in the league have guards that can score 18 a game. Very few teams have a big man as good as Duncan.

Most people agree that you need at least 2 superstars to win a title. MJ/Pippen, Kobe/Shaq, Kobe/Pau, Pierce/Allen/KG, Wade/Shaq (and refs), Dumars/Thomas, Magic/Kareem, etc. The amazing thing about Hakeem's titles is he got them with a bunch of role players and junk. The 2004 Pistons were an impressive team, but nobody would say dominant necessarily (even if they did beat a HOF-studded Lakers team).

Duncan's 03, 05, and 07 teams were him and crap (well role players, but you know what I mean). Parker did play really well in 07 so maybe you can take that one away, but he's really only seen as a top 5 point guard because he plays next to Tim Duncan. If he didn't have titles he'd be no considered no better than a Mike Bibby or Andre Miller.

ARMIN12NBA
01-16-2010, 08:36 PM
(Kobe played all 82 and put up 30-6-7 with OK defense)

Changing your tune? I always remember you saying you thought Kobe's defense was elite back in 03.

SLY WILLIAMS
01-16-2010, 08:41 PM
Ive hated the Spurs for 20 plus years but if I was starting a team I would take a young Duncan over Kobe or Lebron. I wont argue stats. I bet when all is said and done if you asked Shaq and Kobe who was the best they played against since 1999 they would/should say Duncan.

JayW_1023
01-17-2010, 05:59 AM
Too bad the Spurs are nothing but a mediocre team now, despite Duncans best statistical season in years. Just goes to show how hollow numbers can be.

ManRam
01-17-2010, 11:24 AM
This thread is asking for the best player, not MVP, so Iverson and KG have legitimate shots.

2000-Shaq
2001- Iverson
2002-Shaq
2003-Shaq (I want to say T-mac, he had a great year)
2004-09 Kobe

Kobe was, without a doubt, not at all the best player for those 6 years.

In 03-04 he shot 44% and averaged only 22.9 points. He wasn't a top 5 player the next year, especially when you consider they didn't make the playoffs. Maybe from 06-09 he was. I'd take LeBron over him last year, I'd take Dirk over him in 06-07 and KG and Timmy in 03-04.

I'd say Timmy was the best in 01-02, 02-03 and maybe 03-04.

#1Mavericksfan
01-17-2010, 11:49 AM
Too bad the Spurs are nothing but a mediocre team now, despite Duncans best statistical season in years. Just goes to show how hollow numbers can be.

I feel ya....Duncan along with Dirk do so much so keep there team in the game that it's not even funny.

Chronz
01-17-2010, 02:27 PM
Too bad the Spurs are nothing but a mediocre team now, despite Duncans best statistical season in years. Just goes to show how hollow numbers can be.
I dont see how its the #'s fault that the league has improved, Duncans dominance defensively has dwindled, TP has regressed, Manu is limited, and RJ is struggling.

Put it this way, for every person you say that about the exact opposite holds true for another.

Look at ZBo, best #'s of his career, best winning of his career. Should I say just gos to show how influential #'s are? No, whether a team wins or loses depends on the TEAMS #'s, every player has his own set of circumstances and all that matters is how he performs in that role.

Duncan is playing better now than he did the past year maybe 2, the fact that the Spurs arent as good isnt Duncan's fault.

ps Who locked him down in Charlotte, I wanted to watch the game but Bobcat games are always so ugly, who was the primary defender on him?

Chronz
01-17-2010, 02:37 PM
:confused:
You once thought that, you mustve been drunk


Changing your tune? I always remember you saying you thought Kobe's defense was elite back in 03.
That was the year Kobe began coasting defensively during the regular season. 98-02 Kobe played consistently great defense, from that point forward he conserved more energy as his offensive load increased, only took the challenge when someone got his attention. It was always elite when it mattered most (Playoffs).

Chronz
01-17-2010, 02:46 PM
Kobe was, without a doubt, not at all the best player for those 6 years.

In 03-04 he shot 44% and averaged only 22.9 points. He wasn't a top 5 player the next year, especially when you consider they didn't make the playoffs. Maybe from 06-09 he was. I'd take LeBron over him last year, I'd take Dirk over him in 06-07 and KG and Timmy in 03-04.

I'd say Timmy was the best in 01-02, 02-03 and maybe 03-04.

What sucks is how the trial effected him, 02-03 was suppose to be the start of his prime, but he came back the very next year noticeably scrawny. The year after that was his first as the man, shockingly he didnt go bonkers. He hogged the ball more than ever but he wasnt chucking, he was basically playing in a spread offense trying to show case his all-around game. He put up the worst production of his career, and the Lakers struggled due to their lack of interior defense. Those 2 years were the lost years to me so I agree, no way is he in the running those 2 years. After that it became debateable

JordansBulls
01-17-2010, 04:49 PM
You once thought that, you mustve been drunk




:confused:
Malone is top 13-15 all time while Payton is top 25-30 all time.

ARMIN12NBA
01-17-2010, 06:17 PM
Kobe was, without a doubt, not at all the best player for those 6 years.

In 03-04 he shot 44% and averaged only 22.9 points. He wasn't a top 5 player the next year, especially when you consider they didn't make the playoffs. Maybe from 06-09 he was. I'd take LeBron over him last year, I'd take Dirk over him in 06-07 and KG and Timmy in 03-04.

I'd say Timmy was the best in 01-02, 02-03 and maybe 03-04.

They were the 6th seed until his injury. . .

JordansBulls
01-17-2010, 08:23 PM
Kobe was, without a doubt, not at all the best player for those 6 years.

In 03-04 he shot 44% and averaged only 22.9 points. He wasn't a top 5 player the next year, especially when you consider they didn't make the playoffs. Maybe from 06-09 he was. I'd take LeBron over him last year, I'd take Dirk over him in 06-07 and KG and Timmy in 03-04.

I'd say Timmy was the best in 01-02, 02-03 and maybe 03-04.

2006 and 2007 are tricky. It's hard to be the best player in the league in a given season if you go down in the 1st round. You would need to have the best stats in the league for that to happen.

TornadoOfSouls
01-20-2010, 04:16 PM
Without Robinson, Parker and Ginobli he wouldn't be nearly as celebrated as he is. Those guys have that extra special quality that led to championships. I'm not trying to say Duncan isn't a great player but put him in someone else's situation (like Garnett for instance) and this thread itself would be a joke imo.

Robinson was past his prime when Duncan came to SA. Parker and Ginobili are fringe all-stars, at best. Here are the All-NBA selections for the last couple championship teams:

2000 Lakers - Shaq 1st team, Kobe 2nd team
2001 Lakers - Shaq 1st team, Kobe 2nd team
2002 Lakers - Shaq 1st team, Kobe 1st team
2009 Lakers - Kobe 1st team, Gasol 3rd team

2006 Heat - Shaq 1st team, Wade 2nd team

2008 Celtics - Garnett 1st team, Pierce 3rd team

1999 Spurs - Duncan 1st team
2003 Spurs - Duncan 1st team
2005 Spurs - Duncan 1st team
2007 Spurs - Duncan 1st team

Looking at that list it's obvious that Duncan's had less help than the other stars of the decade like Kobe/Shaq.

LebronsLevel
01-24-2010, 12:31 PM
This thread is asking for the best player, not MVP, so Iverson and KG have legitimate shots.

2000-Shaq
2001- Iverson
2002-Shaq
2003-Shaq (I want to say T-mac, he had a great year)
2004-09 Kobe

What a damn joke. Kobe was never the best player in the league. Kobe has never had the best stats in the league nor was the most productive in any season or playoffs.

DerekRE_3
01-24-2010, 12:44 PM
I dont see how its the #'s fault that the league has improved, Duncans dominance defensively has dwindled, TP has regressed, Manu is limited, and RJ is struggling.

Put it this way, for every person you say that about the exact opposite holds true for another.

Look at ZBo, best #'s of his career, best winning of his career. Should I say just gos to show how influential #'s are? No, whether a team wins or loses depends on the TEAMS #'s, every player has his own set of circumstances and all that matters is how he performs in that role.

Duncan is playing better now than he did the past year maybe 2, the fact that the Spurs arent as good isnt Duncan's fault.

ps Who locked him down in Charlotte, I wanted to watch the game but Bobcat games are always so ugly, who was the primary defender on him?

From what I saw it was mostly Nazr Mohammed.

JordansBulls
01-25-2010, 08:16 PM
What a damn joke. Kobe was never the best player in the league. Kobe has never had the best stats in the league nor was the most productive in any season or playoffs.

:speechless: