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JordansBulls
01-08-2010, 06:06 PM
http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=347

Wayne Winston, statistical guru to the Dallas Mavericks for a decade wrote this recent post on his blog..




I got lots of criticism today for stating that this year, after adjusting for who they played with and against, Luol Deng(+20 points Adjusted+/-) was playing better(so far this year) than Kobe (+15 Adjusted +/-.

Let’s try and see why Deng is having a much better year than people think and Kobe, while still great, should not be in the MVP conversation. Simply put, Kobe has much better teammates than Deng. Let’s look at a few numbers.


When Deng is on the court the Bulls play 2 points better than average and when he is off the Bulls play 24 points worse than average.


Let’s see how the Bulls do with Deng out and combos of their other starters (Rose Noah Hinrich and Salmons) on the court. All 4 on court -34 points; Noah Rose Salmons -18 points; Noah Hinrich Salmon -48 points; Hinrich Noah Rose -14 points.



From this data I conclude either that Deng is really good or his temmates are not that great. If his teamates are not that great, then Deng is probably the major reason the Bulls are not one of the league’s worst team,



Now to the Lakers. Here are some numbers



With Artest in and Kobe out the Lakers are only 4 points worse than average. How can this be? Without the world’s best player the Lakers are ok.



With Kobe in and Artest out the Lakers are only 2 points better than average.



With Kobe out and Gasol, Odom, and Artest in the Lakers are great: 17 points better than average.




From this data I conclude that Kobe has some really good teammates. The Lakers have played a really easy schedule and have only played 5 points better than average , so I do not see that Kobe is an MVP.





:speechless:

Gators123
01-08-2010, 06:10 PM
I can already tell this thread will be epic.

hawkeyefootball
01-08-2010, 06:11 PM
:laugh2:

I'm so happy you posted this here too.

Chronz
01-08-2010, 06:13 PM
there is truth in the mans words, Deng is the superstar Chicago has been waiting for

TheWatcher34
01-08-2010, 06:14 PM
Wayne Wnston...huh?? He should be fired!!!

Chicagofaithful
01-08-2010, 06:16 PM
thank you for this JB... it brightened my day

mikantsass
01-08-2010, 06:17 PM
If Deng is better than Kobe then why do the Bulls suck?

Kobes a Killer
01-08-2010, 06:19 PM
Hahahahaha come on dude

Jays Claw
01-08-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm not even going to speak about this comparison. :facepalm:

Chronz
01-08-2010, 06:20 PM
seriously though Deng still has crazy upside imo

Teeboy1487
01-08-2010, 06:21 PM
Deng is a nice player. That's all I got to say.

bigsams50
01-08-2010, 06:25 PM
WOW. That is all

JNA17
01-08-2010, 06:25 PM
If Deng is better than Kobe then why do the Bulls suck?

:laugh:

besides this post im not even gonna say how absurd this article is. The article itself already did that.

Silent
01-08-2010, 06:27 PM
Luol deng fan gonna love this thread

theuuord
01-08-2010, 06:28 PM
lmao

madiaz3
01-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Bulls don't even need an FA next season!

lakerboy
01-08-2010, 06:31 PM
Dude, The Bulls went to the semi finals without Michael Jordan. He should never have been the MVP.

cmellofan15
01-08-2010, 06:31 PM
as much as I love Luol's game I can't figure how this came to be about.

Pierzynski4Prez
01-08-2010, 06:33 PM
i'm shocked this thread wasn't started by Luol Deng Fan.

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2010, 06:36 PM
This goes to show how stats don't tell you everything. There are a lot of players who look better than they are because their numbers, for one reason or another, are inflated. Like when Stackhouse averaged 30+ points with the Pistons. Jordan and the Wizards thought they were getting a deal when they moved Hamilton for Stackhouse, but a couple years later while Stack was playing on a contender he was fighting for minutes while Hamilton was starting on a championship team. There are countless examples, but when a team is getting blown out and the reserves come in, defense is lack and the losers post good numbers. Can't rely on stats for everything.

JordansBulls
01-08-2010, 06:37 PM
This goes to show how stats don't tell you everything. There are a lot of players who look better than they are because their numbers, for one reason or another, are inflated. Like when Stackhouse averaged 30+ points with the Pistons. Jordan and the Wizards thought they were getting a deal when they moved Hamilton for Stackhouse, but a couple years later while Stack was playing on a contender he was fighting for minutes while Hamilton was starting on a championship team. There are countless examples, but when a team is getting blown out and the reserves come in, defense is lack and the losers post good numbers. Can't rely on stats for everything.

I got a kick out of this because Deng isn't even the Bulls best player.

Niro
01-08-2010, 06:41 PM
yeah i think lakers should offer gasol kobe and artest for deng and fillers to match salary...maybe also add some la first rounders to make it fair

papirico52
01-08-2010, 06:41 PM
LOL WTF....:laugh:

ItsTheLastAce
01-08-2010, 06:41 PM
bwuahaha i cant even say anything else

red-momba
01-08-2010, 06:44 PM
wow okay im sold...im throwing away my kobe jersey #1 in sales....and buying a deng jersey#??? in sales

ko8e24
01-08-2010, 06:46 PM
Kobe could learn a thing or two from Luol Deng. Just like the way he learned from Hakeem Olajuwon during the summer.

SteveNash
01-08-2010, 06:49 PM
If Deng is better than Kobe then why do the Bulls suck?

Because Deng has to play with two of the worse starters in the league, Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose.

red-momba
01-08-2010, 06:50 PM
ahaaaa....otherway around buddy kobe is complete now...

$KnicksAndKobe$
01-08-2010, 06:58 PM
I think I'm gonna die. Someone prepare my coffin please ...

dtmagnet
01-08-2010, 06:59 PM
Haha that is awsome

Lakersfan2483
01-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Who wrote the article, a ten year old Deng fan?

Lakersfan2483
01-08-2010, 07:01 PM
Luol is better than Kobe, Wade and Lebron. He is taking the Bulls to the finals this year, book it.

Stunner
01-08-2010, 07:01 PM
lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooo trade Rose for DJ on the Lakers. Dynstay.

Triggerman
01-08-2010, 07:04 PM
What in the world are you drinking!!!! Man...Deng is like (at best) a Ron Harper like to a Chicago Bulls Championship Team...."a support..a number 3 guy at best"!!!!

JIMMY CONWAY
01-08-2010, 07:04 PM
Was I living under a rock?... Who's Luol Deng?

mp3
01-08-2010, 07:12 PM
............................................
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

B.JenningsMVP
01-08-2010, 07:13 PM
hahahahahah.. wowwww

TheHoopsProphet
01-08-2010, 07:15 PM
Can you imagine if the Kobe trade fell through?!

PG - Hinrich/
SG - Ben Gordon/Brown
SF - Deng/Ariza
PF - Gasol/Odom
C - Bynum

dynasty

Giantwarrior
01-08-2010, 07:16 PM
why do you guys care about someones else thinks? who cares its just someone elses opinion.. a nobody writer who just just trying to get some publicity writing lop sided articles.

godolphins
01-08-2010, 07:17 PM
Is this a joke?

jdroubi
01-08-2010, 07:17 PM
best thread of the year

Giantwarrior
01-08-2010, 07:17 PM
some people also think the holocaust never happened...

who cares what other people think!

musefan1990
01-08-2010, 07:19 PM
^^ not bad lol

mp3
01-08-2010, 07:21 PM
some people also think the holocaust never happened...

who cares what other people think!

.....................to far man lol :facepalm:

ChiSox219
01-08-2010, 07:21 PM
Did any of you guys actually read the article?


-From this data I conclude either that Deng is really good or his temmates are not that great. If his teamates are not that great, then Deng is probably the major reason the Bulls are not one of the league’s worst team,

-From this data I conclude that Kobe has some really good teammates. The Lakers have played a really easy schedule and have only played 5 points better than average , so I do not see that Kobe is an MVP.

The Lakers are stacked, Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol are two of the best players in the league. Artest and Bynum also are great players. So when Kobe goes to the bench his team doesn't have a huge drop in production like the Bulls do when Deng goes to the bench.

This season, Deng is more valuable to the Bulls than Kobe is to the Lakers, I don't think that should surprise anyone.

The reason Kobe isn't in Chicago right now is he wanted to play with Luol Deng, kinda ironic.

mp3
01-08-2010, 07:29 PM
i bet someone like iggy probably does the same thing but i dont think he is better then kobe and his team is worse than the bulls and he is probably better than deng. pointless article

vash9
01-08-2010, 07:35 PM
title = win.

rofl.

Lakerfrk
01-08-2010, 07:52 PM
Did any of you guys actually read the article?



The Lakers are stacked, Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol are two of the best players in the league. Artest and Bynum also are great players. So when Kobe goes to the bench his team doesn't have a huge drop in production like the Bulls do when Deng goes to the bench.

This season, Deng is more valuable to the Bulls than Kobe is to the Lakers, I don't think that should surprise anyone.

The reason Kobe isn't in Chicago right now is he wanted to play with Luol Deng, kinda ironic.

That's a poor way to look at it.... If Kobe is gone, true, the Lakers are still okay.. are they champions? No way...

If the Bulls lose Deng.. they suck much more? yes.. same with the Nets losing Harris, the Clippers losing Davis, the Pacers losing Granger....

If a team is mediocre, and then they lose a great player, they are obviously going to be among the dregs... that's how it works... Every good player on a bad team is techinically more important to their team then....

this is dumb...

GREATNESS ONE
01-08-2010, 08:02 PM
wow just wow

kobebabe
01-08-2010, 08:03 PM
This is meant to make the not so great feel so great after all. Horrible comparison but Deng is a decent player.

RadiantShot
01-08-2010, 08:04 PM
Put Kobe on the Chicago bulls, and you have yourself a championship contender, put Luol on the Lakers, and you have anything but that.

1-800-STFU
01-08-2010, 08:48 PM
Deng is better than Kobe. Why all the fuss??

Jvu
01-08-2010, 09:44 PM
There's a big deference between a good player and a great player. And a player like Kobe don't come around to often.

D-Amazins
01-08-2010, 10:42 PM
If Deng is better than Kobe then why do the Bulls suck?

Easy FAIL :facepalm:

I hate when people don't know how to read and then follow up with posts like this.

Supa
01-09-2010, 12:23 AM
This ranks up there with Hollinger's.

---

LanceUpperCut
01-09-2010, 12:40 AM
Well ya hes better I thought everyone knew that. It's just Vinny holding him back.

Cubs Win
01-09-2010, 12:46 AM
seriously though Deng still has crazy upside imo

People tend to forget he's only 24 since he's been in the league for a while. He's averaging about 18/8 this year even with his current thumb injury. So I'm not sure what you mean by crazy upside, but he definitely could still improve a little bit.

Toenail Clipper
01-09-2010, 12:51 AM
Luol Deng will surpass Jordan, book it
:cool:

Cubs Win
01-09-2010, 12:58 AM
Luol Deng will surpass Jordan, book it
:cool:

Oooh bold prediction...NOT! According to one poster in the Bulls Forum (that everyone knows is coo coo for cocoa puffs) Luol Deng is already the best SF in the league (yes, he does mean better than LeBron). This poster goes by the name Luol Deng Fan. I kid you not. He's terribly annoying.

Grim Reaper
01-09-2010, 01:22 AM
This guy Winston is sickening.

bullcubbear23
01-09-2010, 01:25 AM
Is Wayne Winston Luol Deng Fan?

Kannon81
01-09-2010, 01:30 AM
WOW must be from the same cool-aid as the guy that said Kyle Orton reminds him of Joe Montana!!! LOL some people are complete morons!!!

path2zion
01-09-2010, 01:30 AM
Is Wayne Winston Luol Deng Fan?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

momoneyyyy
01-09-2010, 01:32 AM
is this serious do you think loul would have made those game winners this year. this is just plain up stupid..

NJrockPD
01-09-2010, 01:41 AM
Deng MVP.

Shahrose
01-09-2010, 04:29 AM
Im a Bulls fan so im gonna agree
lmao but yea thats an interesting article...to say the least

SchyGuy11
01-09-2010, 04:46 AM
then lets trade deng for kobe straight up

ARMIN12NBA
01-09-2010, 04:53 AM
Wayne Winston also created a stat which had Jason Kidd as the best player in the league.

ARMIN12NBA
01-09-2010, 05:04 AM
The Lakers are stacked, Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol are two of the best players in the league. Artest and Bynum also are great players. So when Kobe goes to the bench his team doesn't have a huge drop in production like the Bulls do when Deng goes to the bench.


:laugh: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. EPIC.


This season, Deng is more valuable to the Bulls than Kobe is to the Lakers, I don't think that should surprise anyone.

Proportions. The Lakers have many more wins than the Bulls have, thus it is unfair to use the age old (and flawed) argument that the Bulls would have less wins without Deng than the Lakers would without Kobe since the Bulls have less wins to begin with!

Ultimately, statistics cannot factor in the intricacies which are not statistically measurable. Doubles and Triples. Attention payed ON and OFF the court.

Kobe dominates in all those areas. The amount of time a team has to prepare for Kobe is ridiculous. It takes away time spent on reading scouting reports and watching tapes of other players. That in of in itself is an advantage. The fact that he is so dangerous from so many areas on the court with his scoring and playmaking ability is another advantage. Deng isn't much of a playmaker and there are many areas on the court where teams would not be afraid of Dengs scoring ability. That is where doubles/triples come in and where Kobe ultimately dominates. The fact that Kobe gets double and tripled so often which gets players open makes him so much more valuable and the Triangle predicates itself on getting the open man after the second pass (Kobe to semi open Player A to open cutter Player B). Deng brings absolutely none of these intangibles to the table and that is why Wayne Winston's stats are to be taken with a grain of salt and within context. BTW--This doesn't even get started on the leadership, experience, and knowledge of the game that Kobe brings each and every day in practice and in the games. His passion as well has pushed the Lakers to be one of the hardest practicing teams in the NBA.

KG2TB
01-09-2010, 05:16 AM
Why is this even a debate ?

Gene2420
01-09-2010, 05:25 AM
If you torture numbers, they'll tell you anything

JDizzle
01-09-2010, 05:36 AM
ha no

_KB24_
01-09-2010, 05:37 AM
AHAAHAA, This guy must be related to Mavrix ;)

knickfan4life
01-09-2010, 05:47 AM
ha!

cambovenzi
01-09-2010, 06:11 AM
Luol Deng will surpass Jordan, book it
:cool:


Oooh bold prediction...NOT! According to one poster in the Bulls Forum (that everyone knows is coo coo for cocoa puffs) Luol Deng is already the best SF in the league (yes, he does mean better than LeBron). This poster goes by the name Luol Deng Fan. I kid you not. He's terribly annoying.

well jordan had better teammates so luol must be better. :laugh:

heathonater
01-09-2010, 06:52 AM
wow. what the f was this guy smoking when he created that post. i hope he wasn't serious in comparing kobe to deng. if he was, that dude should be admitted to a mental hospital:laugh::laugh::laugh::facepalm:

xxxplicit69
01-09-2010, 07:59 AM
of course deng isnt better than kobe, and i'm a bulls fan. kobe is arguably the best player in the league, nobody says that about deng. there are efficiency stats and all that other stuff but anybody the can drop 81 in a gm and can avg. 30ppg along with just a list of other things puts him in an elite class. deng has to focus on staying healthy.

magichatnumber9
01-09-2010, 08:32 AM
Deng is a good player. Kobe is a great player.

ChiSox219
01-09-2010, 07:22 PM
:laugh: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. EPIC.


If you don't want LO we'll take him, even give you Kirk Hinrich.

1-800-STFU
01-09-2010, 08:31 PM
Deng is a godly player. Kobe is a great player.

Fixed for ya

ARMIN12NBA
01-09-2010, 08:40 PM
If you don't want LO we'll take him, even give you Kirk Hinrich.

Odom is fine, but he is easily NOT one of the "best players in the league." Dude, even you have to admit that your statement there was a huge blunder.

1-800-STFU
01-09-2010, 08:48 PM
If Odom put it all together and had a consistent season I have no doubt he has the ability to be a top flight player. He is just one of those players who will forever have untapped potential, like Baron Davis.

_KB24_
01-09-2010, 09:04 PM
If Odom put it all together and had a consistent season I have no doubt he has the ability to be a top flight player. He is just one of those players who will forever have untapped potential, like Baron Davis.

If Kwame Brown put it all together.........GOAT? :facepalm:

1-800-STFU
01-09-2010, 09:06 PM
If Kwame Brown put it all together.........GOAT? :facepalm:

Brown never showed flashes....ever

That was just terrible scouting, he has the hands of a 12 yr old with no post moves. Odom in miami showed some serious flashes of being a top impact player.

ChiSox219
01-09-2010, 09:14 PM
Odom is fine, but he is easily NOT one of the "best players in the league." Dude, even you have to admit that your statement there was a huge blunder.

I disagree, there arent that many players I take over Odom if we are talking short term.

runforrestrunx9
01-09-2010, 09:15 PM
there is truth in the mans words, Deng is the superstar Chicago has been waiting for

seriously??

AIsixersFK
01-09-2010, 09:24 PM
Does Kobe even know who Luol Deng is?

_KB24_
01-09-2010, 09:29 PM
I disagree, there arent that many players I take over Odom if we are talking short term.

Just curious, can you list the players you would take over him in the short term?

IversonIsKrazy
01-10-2010, 01:47 AM
wow...

ko8e24
01-10-2010, 01:50 AM
Does Kobe even know who Luol Deng is?

well, if he don't, then he better recognize my brotha! Datz Luol mutha****in Deng we talkin' bout son!

JNA17
01-10-2010, 02:23 AM
Brown never showed flashes....ever

ummmm hello?

does anybody ever remember this game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-KP4dL98M

if that's not a flash of what he could have been then i dont know what is

TheWatcher34
01-10-2010, 02:56 AM
wow okay im sold...im throwing away my kobe jersey #1 in sales....and buying a deng jersey#??? in sales

born to consume ??

ARMIN12NBA
01-10-2010, 02:58 AM
I disagree, there arent that many players I take over Odom if we are talking short term.

One of the best in the league is top 20 for me.

Apparently you believe Lamar Odom is a top 20 player. That isn't even a debate. He is nowhere near the top 20.

Lamar overall: 9.7/9.7/3.7 on 44/30/64 shooting.

Lamar starter: 11.5/11/4.8 on 45/33/63 shooting.

Nice numbers, as I said, but he is way, way too inconsistent. His defense is average and he can be horrible and great all within one game. You never know what to get out of Lamar and he is too unselfish. He takes himself out of games.

There are at least 30-40 players better than Lamar in the league today. At least.

SchyGuy11
01-10-2010, 03:00 AM
Because Deng has to play with two of the worse starters in the league, Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose.

i hope you are joking

nipo10847
01-10-2010, 03:03 AM
Talking about stupidity!! The writer of this article has a miserable life. That's all I've gotta say.

kozelkid
01-10-2010, 01:03 PM
One of the best in the league is top 20 for me.

Apparently you believe Lamar Odom is a top 20 player. That isn't even a debate. He is nowhere near the top 20.

Lamar overall: 9.7/9.7/3.7 on 44/30/64 shooting.

Lamar starter: 11.5/11/4.8 on 45/33/63 shooting.

Nice numbers, as I said, but he is way, way too inconsistent. His defense is average and he can be horrible and great all within one game. You never know what to get out of Lamar and he is too unselfish. He takes himself out of games.

There are at least 30-40 players better than Lamar in the league today. At least.

The only reason he thinks Odom is so good is because of APM.
Which is a nice stat, but he takes it out of context WAY too much.

masalex1205
01-10-2010, 01:30 PM
everyone chill out, its a purely statistical analysis

D-Will4Prez
01-10-2010, 06:22 PM
LMAO I love you right now JordansBulls, this thread is EPIC. This guy is a genius, his article just made my whole week! :D

Ssshbliblibl00p
01-10-2010, 10:16 PM
Fiddduck a Wayne Winston

Ssshbliblibl00p
01-10-2010, 10:17 PM
everyone chill out, its a purely statistical analysis

Its purely statistical nonsensical analysis

ko8e24
01-10-2010, 11:31 PM
Its purely statistical nonsensical analysis

dude, it's pretty legit. stats don't lie man. facts are facts.

Bryant may have more championships, awards and accolades, but when we're talking about impact on his team and player and efficiency and all that stuff.

Deng > Bryant


It's that simple.

COBY KARL
01-10-2010, 11:40 PM
deng for MVP MVP MVP

JNA17
01-10-2010, 11:43 PM
dude, it's pretty legit. stats don't lie man. facts are facts.

Bryant may have more championships, awards and accolades, but when we're talking about impact on his team and player and efficiency and all that stuff.

Deng > Bryant


It's that simple.

x2. I mean who cares about watching the games anyway? We should base the best players purely on stats since it clearly shows who's the best right?

chipurmunki
01-19-2010, 04:02 AM
add this amazing article to kobe getting his mack on w/ teammates on the court, there's lots of tears in lakerland.

ldc62
01-19-2010, 04:13 AM
Deng isn't even the best player on his team. But since Deng>KObe therefore Deng > Lebron. Guess the bulls won't need to sign Lebron this summer.

Hellcrooner
01-19-2010, 04:19 AM
wow this dude just found out kobe has some good players on his team....

ChiSox219
01-19-2010, 04:21 AM
Talking about stupidity!! The writer of this article has a miserable life. That's all I've gotta say.

I would love to work for an organization that made the playoffs ever year this past decade.


The only reason he thinks Odom is so good is because of APM.
Which is a nice stat, but he takes it out of context WAY too much.

Enough of this. There are plenty of indicators and tape that show LO's talent, he had another game tonight highlighted by a series where he boxes out Dwight for a rebound under the hoop, dribbles down the court creating a mini fast break, made a nice dish, then grabbed the offense rebound and the put back and half the players were still on the other end of the court. He finished with 9-16-5 with 1 turnover in 33 minutes.

No one is going to call him a star because he's not amazing an any one thing. He's a great rebounder, great passer and ball hander for his size, he can post up smaller guys or drag bigs out to perimeter and knock down 3's.

I'm sure it helps to play in the Triangle which suits him perfectly, and also playing with Kobe and Pau doesn't hurt (except his scoring) but he's also been solid, just steadying improvement. He spent one year in Miami and their defense was significantly better with him on the floor.

I do agree with Lakers fans that sometimes Odom is lackadaisical or isn't aggressive enough, but we can't all be Lebron.

Rodgers4Pres
01-19-2010, 04:31 AM
ok this guys just trying to get some ratings or something would if had said chance trade kobe for deng interesting i wonder..... i want some of his good stuff that hes been smokin