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View Full Version : Gary Payton: Bosh and Arenas most overrated players in league



JordansBulls
12-31-2009, 07:34 PM
http://video.betus.com/show/gary-payton-overrated-nba-players
:speechless:

DerekRE_3
12-31-2009, 07:39 PM
That doesn't really shock me.

runforrestrunx9
12-31-2009, 07:39 PM
bold

RaptorsFanatic
12-31-2009, 07:40 PM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I think he has arguable picks.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-31-2009, 07:41 PM
Boo!

ink
12-31-2009, 07:42 PM
There's been a lot of debate about whether Bosh is really a max contract player or not in the Raptors forum so this isn't really that controversial. He's been a LOT better this year than in previous years and Payton may not be following along that closely. In fairness to Bosh he has raised his game a notch. But I don't really have any problem with a retired vet like Payton challenging Bosh to be better.

bigsams50
12-31-2009, 07:42 PM
I agree with Arenas, IDK about Bosh. He's been playing really well this year

cmellofan15
12-31-2009, 07:43 PM
I think they're both overrated but not to that extent

Toenail Clipper
12-31-2009, 07:44 PM
I agree, Bosh is not a LeBron, Wade or Kobe to get max.

Raph12
12-31-2009, 07:47 PM
I agree 100%

ManRam
12-31-2009, 07:49 PM
I agree too, especially with Gil.

Remember. Gary is The Glove. He knows defense. I don't think there is any coincidence involved in the fact that the two people he named don't really excel at the defensive end of the court (not to mention Gil is probably the most inefficient scorer in the game).

SA5195
12-31-2009, 07:49 PM
I actually don't know why people compare Bosh to the other big stars like Wade, Lebron and whatever.

He's a PF, name me one PF that has the quickness, and all those other stuff like them, but whatever thats my opinion.

But I do agree that he has to step it up a bit more, BC did a really good job with bringing in players this off-season, I think that he could still be better than this, especially on the defencive side. But we are in a 5 game W streak, and this video was taken in the 24th.

But yes, Arenas one of the most overrated players in the game

Damela
12-31-2009, 07:50 PM
I thought i was the only one who thought Bosh was way overrated

ldc62
12-31-2009, 07:56 PM
I like the Raps, but I actually have to agree with Payton. Hes not being disrespectful, hes just telling the truth. Bosh does have good stats, but to be a max player you have to dominate and win games (So far we are 1 game under .500).

BALLER71
12-31-2009, 08:01 PM
The Glove :love:

madiaz3
12-31-2009, 08:03 PM
I mean, Gilbert for three years averaged almost 30 points and 6 assists. He just hasn't been able to shake off his injury. I can say Arenas was an elite player in 05-06 (~30pts 6 dimes at 45%) and I can't say Bosh ever held that status.

Kakaroach
12-31-2009, 08:06 PM
Arenas? No duh he's over-rated, everyone already knew that. But Bosh? I don't think so, especially with the way he has performed this so far this season.

ManRam
12-31-2009, 08:07 PM
I mean, Gilbert for three years averaged almost 30 points and 6 assists. He just hasn't been able to shake off his injury. I can say Arenas was an elite player in 05-06 (~30pts 6 dimes at 45%) and I can't say Bosh ever held that status.

Gil has been on much better teams. He is the definition of a non-winner. He doesn't carry teams. This is probably the first time I've ever defended Bosh, but his year this year is as impressive as any Gil has had (24pts 11boards at 52%), 8th in scoring, 6th in rebounding.

madiaz3
12-31-2009, 08:09 PM
Gil has been on much better teams. He is the definition of a non-winner. He doesn't carry teams. This is probably the first time I've ever defended Bosh, but his year this year is as impressive as any Gil has had (24pts 11boards at 52%)

His big three always suffered from injuries playoff time, not to mention crab dribble phantom foul buzzer beaters from Lebron.

kozelkid
12-31-2009, 08:09 PM
How the hell did he graduate HS.
I also remember him saying that if Bulls made playoffs last season he would jump off in a speedo on a bungee cord in UC. Didn't really live up to that promise.

td0tsfinest
12-31-2009, 08:29 PM
Bosh is not a Max Player. The truth is only a few players in the league, Kobe Lebron Wade, are Max players. But alot of players are still going to get the max contract because that's the goal of the agent.

A Max Contract or not shouldn't be used to justify if a person is overrated. They're are only two players in the entire league that are averaging 20+ pts and 10+ rebs a game and Bosh is one of them.

I agree with Payton when he says Bosh is not a Max Player but calling him overrated is quite bold.

BADKNEES
12-31-2009, 08:31 PM
It's always difficult to evaluate a player's ability when on a bad team. Putting up 25 and 10 on a crappy team is not like doing it for a top tier club. That said...Bosh was an extremely valuable player when put on the US olympic team. He showed his versatility and well rounded skills. Granted it is the the other end of the spectrum of talent but I do believe it shows that if he has skilled players around him, he still shows unique abilities.

As for Gil, he was an explosive scorer and I believe he's returning to form. Before his injuries, who were his peers in the east at the 2position? Here's the list: Wade. That's the list. Perhaps 110million was a bit ambitious but lets not forget how talented this dude is.

So yes they are both Max players

BADKNEES
12-31-2009, 08:44 PM
...And this is another example of why NBATV had to let GP go. He and CWEBB were hilarious but GP's insight or at least his ability to articulate it is sorely lacking. Still wouldn't want him to guard me but cmon son - Webcam in the hallway is probably a more appropriate set up for him until he steps his game up.

T.O-Fan
12-31-2009, 08:49 PM
wowowoowwoowwoo wooooooo!..bosh overated?!!!..no way! gary paytons is overrated!! defenitly.....sometimes you dont show your best when u dont have the rite players around you because it wont realy get you nowhere...but bosh is underrated!!!!!!!!

this is the year where gary payton wil eat eat back his words and **** them again come end of the season and playoffs..Go Raps Go!

J_M_B
12-31-2009, 09:12 PM
I actually agree with Payton...

Jays Claw
12-31-2009, 09:46 PM
I agree with Payton when he says Bosh is not a max player but calling him overrated is quite bold.

:nod:

Chris Bosh is not worth a max contract, but to say he is overrated is absurd.

BADKNEES
12-31-2009, 09:57 PM
In this economy and with the instability of free-agency, nobody is really deserving to be a "max player" but if you think of a player on each team that you'd be lost with, you're MVP, you need to find a way to hold on to him or else really build from scratch. You hold on to him by paying the duckets - which can mean "MAX". How would the Raps be without Bosh?

You may find out soon enough

ink
12-31-2009, 09:57 PM
:nod:

Chris Bosh is not worth a max contract, but to say he is overrated is absurd.

Problem is, it's a league of overpaid players.

When you look at Bosh and the way he's currently producing, it's hard to say that he's really over-rated. We don't know if he'll continue at that rate, but one thing that has to be said is that he's showing more character and professionalism than tons of other stars.

He is not Kobe, Lebron, or DWade, but he's right on par with the next layer of stars. Basically, as a PF, he is never going to be as flashy or as much of a threat as a perimeter player. He is never going to get that kind of credit.

But what has to be acknowledged is that when he could be a major jerk about 2010 he is being anything but. He is showing nothing but dedication to the team he's playing for now. If he becomes a FA, the guy can leave with a completely clear conscience because of the way he's conducted himself. Right now I hope he doesn't leave because I don't think I've seen this kind of dedication - to self-improvement and to his team - out of an NBA player in a long time. That has value.

cmellofan15
12-31-2009, 10:46 PM
Just a question to all, do you guys think being overpaid is overrated?

BADKNEES
12-31-2009, 10:56 PM
Just a question to all, do you guys think being overpaid is overrated?

Not all overpaid players are overrated. Some are overpaid and we all know it, they know it and their teams know it... but you must deal with the contract that was based on potential, past success and projected improvement(think McGrady $23m this yr.)

Most overrated players are also overpaid. BC if they are overrated, some GM probably has been fooled into rewarding them for a 1 big season or being a great lockerroom guy.

JasonJohnHorn
12-31-2009, 11:01 PM
I wouldn't say Gilbert is overrated for the simple fact that most people don't think he's that great. Everybody knows his FG% sucks, everybody knows he is injury prone and everybody i know shook their heads when they heard about the size of the contract Washington gave him. So overrated? I'd say only by the people who offered him that huge contract. I read over and over how his is the worst contract in the league on this site and elsewhere. So I think Gilbert is rated about where he should be.

As for Bosh, I think he is rated about where he should be too. I have not heard anybody say he is as good a Wade LeBron or Kobe, EVER! I've never even heard anybody say he was as good as: Dirk, Garnett or Duncan. People generally see Bosh as a solid scorer and rebonder (which he is) and a guy that can help make a team better (which he is), but people generally don't consider him a franchise player, certainly not outside of Toronto (and even in Toronto for that matter), but the fact of the matter is he's young, healthy and a solid low post scorer and rebounder who would be the first or second options on most teams (outside LA that is). And while he may not be as good as other max-contract players, he will still command a max or near-max contract based on the market and what else is out there. There are 30 teams in the league and there are not 30 players better than Bosh in the league, so if each team had one max contract player, that would place Bosh in the running for a max contract.

jimbobjarree
12-31-2009, 11:17 PM
they are both offensive machines, but arent great players simply cus theyre both so soft on defense

ManRam
12-31-2009, 11:19 PM
Just a question to all, do you guys think being overpaid is overrated?

No. Rashard Lewis is overpaid, but not overrated. Many others are too. He just comes to mind first.

sportscrazy34
12-31-2009, 11:23 PM
Maybe Bosh is having the year he is having because its a contract year and trying a bit harder?

SteveNash
12-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Payton was one of the most overrated players in his era so he definitely knows what it means to be an overrated player and is right on the money in singling out Bosh and Arenas.

ItsTheLastAce
12-31-2009, 11:40 PM
i think the only guys who are max players are kobe,lebron, and wade. then you have the franchise players guys like dirk, howard, bosh, roy, williams, cp3. all those guys prolly will get max contracts though.

bosh isnt overrated. arenas is severely overpaid

BADKNEES
12-31-2009, 11:45 PM
Payton was one of the most overrated players in his era so he definitely knows what it means to be an overrated player and is right on the money in singling out Bosh and Arenas.

GP may not be well-spoken but he could ball in his prime.

9 time ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
9 time NBA ALL-STAR
Led NBA in ASSISTS 1 yr
Led NBA in STEALS 1 yr
Led NBA in 3ptrs made 1 yr
Scored almost 22,000 points- more than Larry Bird
...AND He got a ring...I know he was just along for the ride - but he got one.

barreleffact
12-31-2009, 11:48 PM
im neither agreeing nor disagreeing with him. his method of rating players is simply by salary which isnt really the best measure. to call bosh overrated without giving any negative aspects of his game nor his personality isnt exactly the best way to earn my respect for his comment. he even said they arent winning but he doesnt know why. well if he doesnt know why then he cant single out bosh. many players have led teams to losing seasons or less than playoff births from tmac to kobe to everyone else without talent around them. as far as gilbert, he is putting up respectable numbers especially considering his injury. his contract is overpaying him but as mentioned by somebody else, he is not overRATED. most people judge his game for what its worth. if anything, gilbert might be underrated. people bash hims so much these days because of how explosive he once was, but considering he doesnt have the "killer instict" right now nor the explosiveness, he's still producing.

tkshy
12-31-2009, 11:58 PM
A couple things.
1. I agree Bosh and Arenas are overated
2. Can't say that GP had a good argument though...team isn't winning, but I don't know why....does that mean that any player on a losing team is overated? He can do better than that.
3a. In terms of Bosh (name your top 5 PF in the leauge...is he one?)
3b. In terms of Arenas (name your top 5 SG(pg?)...is he one?)

Bosh may be overated but not to the extent of Arenas.

SteveNash
01-01-2010, 12:00 AM
GP may not be well-spoken but he could ball in his prime.

9 time ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
9 time NBA ALL-STAR
Led NBA in ASSISTS 1 yr
Led NBA in STEALS 1 yr
Led NBA in 3ptrs made 1 yr
Scored almost 22,000 points- more than Larry Bird
...AND He got a ring...I know he was just along for the ride - but he got one.

GP could ball.

Bosh can ball.

Arenas could/can ball.

Being overrated doesn't mean that suck. It means that people rate them higher than they deserve.

ink
01-01-2010, 12:02 AM
they are both offensive machines, but arent great players simply cus theyre both so soft on defense

Actually I don't think they can be compared at all. Arenas is an awful team player while Bosh is an amazing team player. There are SO many ways that these two players are different. I would take Bosh on my team any day and I would do almost anything to keep Arenas OFF my team any day. That's not just hyperbole. Arenas makes his team worse, Bosh makes his better. Arenas goes out for the season with an injury and his team's prospects IMPROVE. Bosh goes out for a couple of games and his team doesn't know whether they'll win any of them. Across the board it's a pretty big insult to compare the two players.

BADKNEES
01-01-2010, 12:12 AM
GP could ball.

Bosh can ball.

Arenas could/can ball.

Being overrated doesn't mean that suck. It means that people rate them higher than they deserve.

I'm aware what overrated means. My list of accomplishments was meant to prove that GP was not overrated as you called him but one of the best the game has seen. I have given just some highlights and If these types of honors don't mean you're accomplished then what are the standards to be measured by? He scored, defended and led his team to victory. Overrated? One of the top 10 point guards of all time. Show me I'm wrong and name 10 that are better.

Patriots
01-01-2010, 12:24 AM
i agree 100% Gilbert Arenas isnt himself no more..

barreleffact
01-01-2010, 01:13 AM
Actually I don't think they can be compared at all. Arenas is an awful team player while Bosh is an amazing team player. There are SO many ways that these two players are different. I would take Bosh on my team any day and I would do almost anything to keep Arenas OFF my team any day. That's not just hyperbole. Arenas makes his team worse, Bosh makes his better. Arenas goes out for the season with an injury and his team's prospects IMPROVE. Bosh goes out for a couple of games and his team doesn't know whether they'll win any of them. Across the board it's a pretty big insult to compare the two players.

you could argue the same thing about cp3 as arenas tho so thats not rly always a fair argument

ink
01-01-2010, 01:43 AM
you could argue the same thing about cp3 as arenas tho so thats not rly always a fair argument

Hardly. If you want to compare them, go ahead, but comparing Arenas and CP3 in any way is pretty ludicrous as well. CP3 is irrelevant here.

I'm going to get back on topic. Bosh is a huge asset to his team. Arenas is a liability.

KobeIs
01-01-2010, 02:38 AM
I agree with Arenas, IDK about Bosh. He's been playing really well this year

me too, i really like the way bosh has been playing.

HuRRiCaNeS324
01-01-2010, 02:54 AM
I don't agree with Arenas at all because he just came back from serious injuries, give him time. Before his injuries, overrating him never crossed anyones mind (unless you're a hater).

I agree with Bosh, but to an extent. He will be getting a max deal for sure next year, and like Payton said, he doesn't deserve that yet. he's is definitely a great player, but i don't think he is a max. But that's the NBA owner's fault not his.

lakersfan211
01-01-2010, 02:55 AM
when bosh hears about this he will fire back he has a history of that .

lakersfan211
01-01-2010, 02:58 AM
arenas is the most overrated player of the decade or should i say the last decade .

RaptorizedKevin
01-01-2010, 03:13 AM
I actually agree with Payton...

yu agree with payton? good luck bringing him to miami, with naything lesss than a maxe money contract.

RaptorizedKevin
01-01-2010, 03:15 AM
Payton was one of the most overrated players in his era so he definitely knows what it means to be an overrated player and is right on the money in singling out Bosh and Arenas.

No one has the right to critize people and express their opinions as facts, things dont work like this.

Derick713
01-01-2010, 03:35 AM
Arenas and Bosh aren't winners. Dwayne Wade has less talent around him than both these players and yet he carries his team. Arenas is overrated since he is not living up to his contract. Bosh is still on pace to lift his team to the playoffs.

TALENT AROUND ARENAS-
Antawn Jamison
Caron Butler
Brendan Haywood
Mike Miller
Randy Foye

TALENT AROUND BOSH
Hedo Turkoglu
Andrea Barganani
Jose Calderon




Jermaine O'Neal-Lesser Version
Michael Beasley- Second Year

Hawkeye15
01-01-2010, 03:36 AM
for the money they make, and will command, I agree totally. Neither is a franchise player, and both make that money, or will be shortly

Gibby
01-01-2010, 03:45 AM
I dont think Bosh is overated because many people around the league dont think of him as top tier player. If he gets max money that doesnt mean he is overated, it depends on the market and how much teams are willing to pay him.

Most of the stars player who have gone deep into the playoffs have an All Star caliber player on their team. Only exception is Lebron.

Kobe has Pau
The Big three in Boston
Melo has Billups
Tim Duncan has Parker
D12 has Vince
Deron Williams has Boozer
CP3 has West

MegaFauna
01-01-2010, 04:03 AM
from the little bit of raptors games i have seen, it's obvious that Bosh is a beast on offense, but his defense seems to be terrible, he just looks lazy out there

i may have caught him on bad nights, but what are raptor fans thoughts on his D?

JasonJohnHorn
01-01-2010, 04:04 AM
I don't agree with Arenas at all because he just came back from serious injuries, give him time. Before his injuries, overrating him never crossed anyones mind (unless you're a hater).

I'm not a "hater", Arenas actually seems like a nice enough guy who has a strogn work ethic, but I never thought he was as good as his scoring averages suggested becuase his FG% was so low and being a scoring point guard, or a shooting guard that is shorter than most point guards, never translates into team success. Its why Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury and Nate Robinson have been so ineffective at leading teams. Gil has game, but he is not the type of player who shoudl be getting such a huge contract and most of the guys I've talked to thought he was overrated before he even got that huge contract. Its nothing to do with his injuries at all, though they have diltued the value of his contract for sure. Its more so his low FG% (which has actually been declining since his rookie season- very odd trend) and his turnovers.

aman_13
01-01-2010, 05:00 AM
from the little bit of raptors games i have seen, it's obvious that Bosh is a beast on offense, but his defense seems to be terrible, he just looks lazy out there

i may have caught him on bad nights, but what are raptor fans thoughts on his D?

His defence is improving in my opinion.

caseyv415
01-01-2010, 05:19 AM
http://video.betus.com/show/gary-payton-overrated-nba-players
:speechless:

Agreed

Toenail Clipper
01-01-2010, 06:08 AM
I don't really see Bosh as a "franchise player" or a "first option" player at all.
It's not in him.
His team should be winning as well since they're in the EAST.

whitekimbo
01-01-2010, 08:01 AM
I actually don't know why people compare Bosh to the other big stars like Wade, Lebron and whatever.

He's a PF, name me one PF that has the quickness, and all those other stuff like them, but whatever thats my opinion.

But I do agree that he has to step it up a bit more, BC did a really good job with bringing in players this off-season, I think that he could still be better than this, especially on the defencive side. But we are in a 5 game W streak, and this video was taken in the 24th.

But yes, Arenas one of the most overrated players in the game

true, but name another PF thats as soft as him.

skinsfan4life80
01-01-2010, 09:41 AM
Gilbert 09 numbers 22.7 pts 7 ast 4.3 rbs 35% 3pt
payton career numbers 16.3 6.7 ast 3.9 rbs 31.7 3pt

Gil and Bosh arent even the most overpaid players on there own teams let alone in the NBA. Payton is an idiot

FlakeyFool
01-01-2010, 01:21 PM
at least bosh doesn't pull a gun on his teammate

smith&wesson
01-01-2010, 01:39 PM
bosh is averaging 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 1.8 assists and leads the league in double doubles ....

what would he have to average to not be over rated ? this season i dont think he isnt over rated at all.

arenas on the other hand is an injury prone chucker who the wizards will never be able to move because his contract is simply horid.

dtmagnet
01-01-2010, 02:54 PM
true, but name another PF thats as soft as him.

What does that mean exactly? Does he have to knock someone out before people will stop calling him that?

mjt20mik
01-01-2010, 03:08 PM
If he's speaking about contracts...

Jermaine O'Neal - 22,995,000
Rashard Lewis - 18,876,000
Tracy McGrady - 23,239,561

These guys are overrated based on their contracts. Both Gilbert Arenas and Chris Bosh are very solid players, and are putting out good numbers. I don't get how Bosh can be overrated, when basically no one talks about him. Bosh is not a max guy, but he's definitely not overrated.

ThuglifeJ
01-01-2010, 03:11 PM
truth

jim51990
01-01-2010, 03:12 PM
idk about bosh but gilbert yes and id put derrick rose right up there with him

NYMetros
01-01-2010, 03:22 PM
bosh is averaging 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 4.5 assists and leads the league in double doubles ....

what would he have to average to not be over rated ? this season i dont think he isnt over rated at all.

Play better defense?

3neSoulja
01-01-2010, 03:23 PM
If you guys think bosh is overrated you don't know basketball. Bosh is a PF that averages 20 and 10. He doesn't play the wing like Lebron and Wade so u can't expect him to Average 30 a game. He's 6'11 not 6'7. He's the third best PF in the game behind Garnett and Duncan. You wanna talk about someone overrated, talk about that guy out of Ohio state who couldn't play 20 games str8 but was supposed to be the next dominant center..... What's his name a again Greg Hurtin

loufor2
01-01-2010, 03:24 PM
idk about bosh but gilbert yes and id put derrick rose right up there with him

Rose gets paid how he should right now.

mjt20mik
01-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Play better defense?

Because Bosh doesn't play defense he becomes overrated? No one is calling the kid a superstar. He's an all star at best. So I don't get how he becomes overrated. If people were like Bosh is top 5 in the NBA, then I guess it is fair to call him overrated, but he's like top 15 / top 10 at most. IMO being overrated is being called something that your not worthy of being called. Bosh is not being called a superstar, thus he can not be overrated.

aman_13
01-01-2010, 03:30 PM
What does that mean exactly? Does he have to knock someone out before people will stop calling him that?

I never understood why people called him soft. He is one of the best at getting to the free throw line, and is a beast when it comes to rebounding. He is always attacking the net, and does not care at all about contact. Evan Sam Mitchell who is known for his toughness, said that Bosh is one of the tougher big men in the league because of the way he attacked the net.

Stunner
01-01-2010, 03:32 PM
idk about bosh but gilbert yes and id put derrick rose right up there with him

D-Rose hater in da house Rose is serving right now and is making wat a 1 pick should be making.And Rose is going to be Arenas if he already is. In dis proves my point even when the thread isnt about Rose his name allways comes up in a negative sense. Hating for no reason.

jim51990
01-01-2010, 03:37 PM
D-Rose hater in da house Rose is serving right now and is making wat a 1 pick should be making.And Rose is going to be Arenas if he already is. In dis proves my point even when the thread isnt about Rose his name allways comes up in a negative sense. Hating for no reason.

its not hating when its the truth and second he comes up because the rest of the world is tired of the people who have a man-crush on rose

aman_13
01-01-2010, 03:40 PM
Aside from Raptor fans, i bet most people on this thread or forum haven't even seen more than two or three Raptor games. Most people just look at the team record or remember games that they saw probably last year or the year before and say he is overrated.

Stunner
01-01-2010, 03:49 PM
its not hating when its the truth and second he comes up because the rest of the world is tired of the rose dickriders

it is hating dis whole f ing thread isnt bout Rose why da hell did u bring him up for. Tell me how Rose is overated he only in his second year wait till to his third year to pass judgement he jumpshot is so-so and his defense his suspect but he one of the best in the nba players geting to the hole. Rose is doing everything on a team he almost have no help besides Noah and Deng. If we Bulls overated our players then let us we know more about our players on what they can and cant do then the rest of u a-holes do. We never said Rose is the pg in the league right now we said he could be in a few years. Every bulls fan would trade Rose for CP3 AND D-Will to be our PG who wouldnt. Dis is how u overrate a player my friend some one who doesnt live up to his draft staus some one who doesnt play for what he is worth. Everybody agrees Rose is playing how he should be right now and is living up so far to his 1 pick talent and he is only in year 2. Nobody didnt think he would be this good in 1st year and he started injuried in his 2nd year but now he putting up 20+ a game in Dec. and all his numbers are up. All im saying is if D-Rose name isnt in the thread dont bring him up and start bashing him for no reason, this thread is about Bosh and Gilbert. Zero is overated Bosh a lil but not much only thing with him is his Defense but wouldnt want Bosh on their team. Jus Saying. Plus u would defend Rondo when people put him down wouldnt u?

SteveNash
01-01-2010, 06:24 PM
I'm aware what overrated means. My list of accomplishments was meant to prove that GP was not overrated as you called him but one of the best the game has seen. I have given just some highlights and If these types of honors don't mean you're accomplished then what are the standards to be measured by? He scored, defended and led his team to victory. Overrated? One of the top 10 point guards of all time. Show me I'm wrong and name 10 that are better.

Listing accomplishments doesn't prove Payton is not overrated.

ramz.n
01-01-2010, 06:33 PM
There's been a lot of debate about whether Bosh is really a max contract player or not in the Raptors forum so this isn't really that controversial. He's been a LOT better this year than in previous years and Payton may not be following along that closely. In fairness to Bosh he has raised his game a notch. But I don't really have any problem with a retired vet like Payton challenging Bosh to be better.

agreed..its positive critism..hopefully bosh can keep up the monstrous season to prove gary wrong..its not a chris webber situation wheres hes just totally bashing the team.

smith&wesson
01-01-2010, 06:33 PM
Play better defense?

sure he could be better on D. but he aint that bad... and no one is saying he is the defensive player of the year... so i ask again how is he over rated ?

who every said he is an mvp ?

who ever said he was the defensive player of the year ??

to say those things would be over rating him, but i dont hear anything like that being said about him. he is playing like a beast this year. you have to give him credit where its due. just look at those numbers and tell me you wouldnt want him on your team.

23.8 11.3 1.8

thats not over rated. thats playing great and with efeciency. any team would love to have this guys on theyre team. you can not say the same about gilbert.

i agree with payton there... gilbert gets paid max dollars and has been injured for ever. and now that he is back he isnt the same. so yeah its fair to say he is over rated. but bosh is on a contract year making like 15mill this year and putting up those numbers. thats not over rated at all.

JordansBulls
01-01-2010, 07:20 PM
Payton was one of the most overrated players in his era so he definitely knows what it means to be an overrated player and is right on the money in singling out Bosh and Arenas.

What do mean? He was a top 10 player in the 90's and a top 3 PG along with Penny and Stockton.

Giaps
01-01-2010, 09:04 PM
Arenas definitely is. Bosh, maybe. He's probably a few million shy of a max contract, but I'm sure he will be offered the max by someone.

Mavrix
01-01-2010, 09:13 PM
I actually don't know why people compare Bosh to the other big stars like Wade, Lebron and whatever.

He's a PF, name me one PF that has the quickness, and all those other stuff like them, but whatever thats my opinion.

But I do agree that he has to step it up a bit more, BC did a really good job with bringing in players this off-season, I think that he could still be better than this, especially on the defencive side. But we are in a 5 game W streak, and this video was taken in the 24th.

But yes, Arenas one of the most overrated players in the game

Amare.

koreancabbage
01-01-2010, 09:18 PM
the PFs more overrated than Bosh...

Amare and David West.

Both of those guys have arguably 2 of the top 3 PGs in the league on their teams. Bosh doesn't get exceptional looks the others get with Nash or Paul feeding them.

All Amare does is stand in the paint and wait for the ball while David West just stands at the top of the key.

Bosh has arguably better offensive moves than all of them and usually does most of the 20-10 by himself. Defensively, it's a wash.

SA5195
01-01-2010, 09:32 PM
Amare.

So he can run as fast as Wade, and/or Lebron, and can average 20 and 10 without a good pg?

ElMarroAfamado
01-01-2010, 09:43 PM
anyone know why GP doesnt come out on NBA TV no more?

smith&wesson
01-01-2010, 09:44 PM
Amare.

amare isnt as quick as bosh, cant shoot like bosh, cant defend either. what does he do better exactly ?

SteveNash
01-01-2010, 09:57 PM
What do mean? He was a top 10 player in the 90's and a top 3 PG along with Penny and Stockton.

I mean he wasn't a top 10 player in the 90's. Not a definite top 3 PG, but he's definitely better than Penny.

kntresistheheat
01-01-2010, 10:00 PM
amare isnt as quick as bosh, cant shoot like bosh, cant defend either. what does he do better exactly ?


Amare has a shot, he used it more last year more than this year....

I do agree with gp about bosh should not be a max player, but thats only because I believe bosh needs a playmaker like a nash, cp3, ect..... He would easily put up 25 -10 every game and he does have to work on his defense. As for Arenas, I never liked him and I always thought he was over rated

barreleffact
01-01-2010, 10:28 PM
Gilbert is UNDERrated. ppl bash him so much like he is complete trash when infacy he is forced to change his game and has less speed and explsiveness. he had major knee surgeries and hasnt played muchin 2 years and he still is putting up solid numbers

BADKNEES
01-01-2010, 11:23 PM
Listing accomplishments doesn't prove Payton is not overrated.

I guess it puzzles me how you can not give GP his just due. I have made a case for him as an outstanding player. Can you make a case and actually tell me WHY you feel he is overrated or will you just continue to make the statement without backing it up with facts, stats, or any reinforcement? It's the nature of debate is it not?

SteveNash
01-01-2010, 11:54 PM
I guess it puzzles me how you can not give GP his just due. I have made a case for him as an outstanding player. Can you make a case and actually tell me WHY you feel he is overrated or will you just continue to make the statement without backing it up with facts, stats, or any reinforcement? It's the nature of debate is it not?

What don't you understand about being overrated?

Steve Nash has won 2 MVPs putting him above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. He isn't above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. Making him overrated.

Payton was a selfish ball hog, an overrated defender, and just an overall team cancer. A player that certainly couldn't live up to all his trash talking that must have some how elevated his status to something higher than it was.

barreleffact
01-02-2010, 12:11 AM
^steve nash never did anything special without a stacked team and his MVP's werent really earned. especially the 2nd one. so i guess you know about overrated...

steve nash is one hell of a baller tho btw. just pointing things out

BADKNEES
01-02-2010, 12:25 AM
What don't you understand about being overrated?

Steve Nash has won 2 MVPs putting him above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. He isn't above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. Making him overrated.

Payton was a selfish ball hog, an overrated defender, and just an overall team cancer. A player that certainly couldn't live up to all his trash talking that must have some how elevated his status to something higher than it was.

Thank you for giving some reasons for your stance.

1st of all, Steve Nash is great!
He is above most other players in that category-MVP.
2nd-I beg to differ that GP is not above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. GP is above most other players in many categories that I mentioned earlier.
I wonder if you may be too young to remember the GP of the 90s. He was pretty useless by the time he retired but was an incredible scorer, distributer, and leader in his prime. If you can't do as I asked and name 10 point guards in the history of the game that were better than Payton, you must just like to argue about stuff. :speechless:

LanceUpperCut
01-02-2010, 12:36 AM
^steve nash never did anything special without a stacked team and his MVP's werent really earned. especially the 2nd one. so i guess you know about overrated...

steve nash is one hell of a baller tho btw. just pointing things out

The only reason his team looked stacked is cause Nash made them look good. He earned both M.V.P. awards.

barreleffact
01-02-2010, 12:43 AM
its debateable. many people question the 2nd more so than the first, but his team was offensively stacked. EVERY player could shoot at the minimum so spacing was perfect too. amare was a beast. nash played great dont get me wrong, but his team played a big part in making him look good too

jhood
01-02-2010, 12:54 AM
how can you make a statement like that when he's a PF and he's basically carries the Raptors to every victory or plays a major role. Bosh is probably one of the most underrated PF's and never gets love cause he's in Toronto. You never hear his name even though he is putting up good enough stats to be included in the top 5 pf's playing riht now in the league. STOP HATING AND APPRECIATe

GILBERt - has come back and failed, and I AGREE IS MAD OVERRATED, and is way over paid. IF BOSH WAS GETTING NICE MONEY, then I would understand wy you'd say he's overrated, BUT HE doesn't even have a franchise salary.

GOD DAMN DO YOUR DAMN HOMEWORK, HAVE PEOPLE BEEN CHECKING HIS STATS, WHAT P/F HAS MADE THAT TYPE OF NIGHTYLY IMPACT IN THE LEAGUE.

EVERY NIGHT SINCE THE BEGINNIGN

uncleben989
01-02-2010, 01:06 AM
how can you make a statement like that when he's a PF and he's basically carries the Raptors to every victory or plays a major role. Bosh is probably one of the most underrated PF's and never gets love cause he's in Toronto. You never hear his name even though he is putting up good enough stats to be included in the top 5 pf's playing riht now in the league. STOP HATING AND APPRECIATe

GILBERt - has come back and failed, and I AGREE IS MAD OVERRATED, and is way over paid. IF BOSH WAS GETTING NICE MONEY, then I would understand wy you'd say he's overrated, BUT HE doesn't even have a franchise salary.

GOD DAMN DO YOUR DAMN HOMEWORK, HAVE PEOPLE BEEN CHECKING HIS STATS, WHAT P/F HAS MADE THAT TYPE OF NIGHTYLY IMPACT IN THE LEAGUE.

EVERY NIGHT SINCE THE BEGINNIGN

well he's loved here in canada so dearly and appreciated, not our fault american media never graces us with any coverage

RadiantShot
01-02-2010, 01:09 AM
Back when the Hibachi was dropping 50 a game (no lie) I would beg to differ, but I can't now...His 20-23 and 5 a night aren't good enough any longer, and people still believe he is all-star calibur, but he's running out of mileage as of late.

BADKNEES
01-02-2010, 01:12 AM
well he's loved here in canada so dearly and appreciated, not our fault american media never graces us with any coverage

Ratings my friend. Nobody wants to see the dinosaurs until playoff. Even then the #s won't hold up unless you're playing the Cavs. Sad but true.

JordansBulls
01-02-2010, 01:39 AM
I mean he wasn't a top 10 player in the 90's. Not a definite top 3 PG, but he's definitely better than Penny.

Who were 10 players better than he was? Also Penny was top 5 when he was healthy.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2010, 02:27 AM
^steve nash never did anything special without a stacked team and his MVP's werent really earned. especially the 2nd one. so i guess you know about overrated...

steve nash is one hell of a baller tho btw. just pointing things out

I agree with you... sort of. Nash won zero MVP's before D'Antoni arrived and I doubt he will ever win another one. Nash's MVP's are a perfect storm of the right guy with the right skills meeting up with the right coaching mind at exactly the right time.

And yes he is playing great basketball this year but even though D'Antoni is gone the Suns are still playing D'Antoni ball.

SteveNash
01-02-2010, 02:37 AM
^steve nash never did anything special without a stacked team and his MVP's werent really earned. especially the 2nd one. so i guess you know about overrated...

steve nash is one hell of a baller tho btw. just pointing things out

Are you trying to bait me by insulting the player my handle is based off of even after I said this:

"Steve Nash has won 2 MVPs putting him above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. He isn't above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. Making him overrated."


Thank you for giving some reasons for your stance.

1st of all, Steve Nash is great!
He is above most other players in that category-MVP.
2nd-I beg to differ that GP is not above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. GP is above most other players in many categories that I mentioned earlier.
I wonder if you may be too young to remember the GP of the 90s. He was pretty useless by the time he retired but was an incredible scorer, distributer, and leader in his prime. If you can't do as I asked and name 10 point guards in the history of the game that were better than Payton, you must just like to argue about stuff. :speechless:

1. What does great have to do with being overrated or not?

2. He scored, but wasn't that efficient. He defended, but gambled too often. He never led his team to a championship. So what was the point again?

As for top 10, I don't like creating top 10 lists as I'll always miss someone, want to change the order, whatever. So searching top 10 lists you get this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

Replace Payton with Billups and there you go 10 PGs better than Payton.


Who were 10 players better than he was? Also Penny was top 5 when he was healthy.

Penny was not top 5 and he was only healthy for what 3 years?

ink
01-02-2010, 02:39 AM
I agree with you... sort of. Nash won zero MVP's before D'Antoni arrived and I doubt he will ever win another one. Nash's MVP's are a perfect storm of the right guy with the right skills meeting up with the right coaching mind at exactly the right time.

And yes he is playing great basketball this year but even though D'Antoni is gone the Suns are still playing D'Antoni ball.

OT -- Have to disagree with you there. Even D'Antoni says he just let Nash freelance. -- back on topic ...

Bosh, Arenas, Payton.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2010, 03:06 AM
OT -- Have to disagree with you there. Even D'Antoni says he just let Nash freelance. -- back on topic ...

Bosh, Arenas, Payton.

but that in itself is exactly the point that i am making. most coaches wouldn't even consider giving somebody the freedom that D'Antoni allowed Nash on the court. He didn't have it in Dallas that's for sure.

ink
01-02-2010, 03:18 AM
but that in itself is exactly the point that i am making. most coaches wouldn't even consider giving somebody the freedom that D'Antoni allowed Nash on the court. He didn't have it in Dallas that's for sure.

The point that anyone who has coached Nash (except for Don Nelson maybe, who is the only one who couldn't get elite results out of him) has said is that Nash is the coach on the floor. He doesn't benefit from the coaching because he improvises virtually every play. Sure, it's great that they give him a blank cheque, but that's not the same as saying that their system made him. The only system they have is letting him do his work without getting in the way.

whitekimbo
01-02-2010, 05:31 AM
What does that mean exactly? Does he have to knock someone out before people will stop calling him that?

if u dont know what that means then maybe u should go learn a thing or 2 before u post comments. no, he doesnt have to knock some1 out, i would still consider him soft, basketball wise...

BADKNEES
01-02-2010, 12:07 PM
"Replace Payton with Billups and there you go 10 PGs better than Payton."


I'm going to tap out here and let it go since we've established that you find GP and Nash to be overrated. 2 of the top 11 point guards of ALL TIME have apparently fooled the establishment but not you.

WOW:confused:

BGeer091
01-02-2010, 12:26 PM
i agree with "The Glove"!! Being a Knicks fan i would be highly disapointed if Chris Bosh was what we walked away with in the off season.

As far as Gilbert, i've never liked him. Personally to me he's the 4th best player on Washington. (Butler,Jameson,Miller)

blastmasta26
01-02-2010, 12:39 PM
Bosh has improved, but I would like to see him become more of a defensive stopper as well.

wallerstud06
01-04-2010, 10:50 AM
Arenas is trash for the contract that he has...

avrpatsfan
01-04-2010, 10:54 AM
23 points 11 rebounds is not overrated

Punkindrublic03
01-04-2010, 11:09 AM
The Glove!!

JordansBulls
01-04-2010, 01:32 PM
What don't you understand about being overrated?

Steve Nash has won 2 MVPs putting him above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. He isn't above almost every player to ever play in the NBA. Making him overrated.

Payton was a selfish ball hog, an overrated defender, and just an overall team cancer. A player that certainly couldn't live up to all his trash talking that must have some how elevated his status to something higher than it was.

:speechless:

Dude who the hell do you like? Because it appears that you come down on nearly every player in NBA History.

Tony_Starks
01-04-2010, 01:35 PM
As a Laker fan Gary Payton should be banned from using the word overrated.

JordansBulls
01-04-2010, 01:37 PM
As a Laker fan Gary Payton should be banned from using the word overrated.

So we are to judge him when he was 37 years old playing with LA?

Tony_Starks
01-04-2010, 01:46 PM
So we are to judge him when he was 37 years old playing with LA?



Um.....YEP! Sure as hell am! Harper, Brian Shaw, and Horace Grant were all old too and they could still hit a damn jump shot!

GodsSon
01-04-2010, 01:57 PM
isnt this the same guy who rode the coat-tails of the Lakers, Celtics and Heat in an attempt to win a ring?? If he was so good, why couldnt he get his team over the hump against the Bulls in the finals??; or beat the 8th seeded Nuggets in the first round?? I thought a franchise player is supposed to step it up and will his team to win??

dev0
01-04-2010, 02:36 PM
gilbert IS the most overrated
bosh is one of the most underrated
i'd like to see some stats from glove to back up what he's saying about bosh, he's been an absolute monster

theuuord
01-04-2010, 02:38 PM
this thread is overrated.

dtmagnet
01-04-2010, 06:54 PM
if u dont know what that means then maybe u should go learn a thing or 2 before u post comments. no, he doesnt have to knock some1 out, i would still consider him soft, basketball wise...

One of the top players in the league in rebounds and free throws, yeah he sure plays a soft style of basketball.

masalex1205
01-04-2010, 07:02 PM
23 points 11 rebounds is not overrated

it is if you don't play D

SteveNash
01-04-2010, 07:11 PM
:speechless:

Dude who the hell do you like? Because it appears that you come down on nearly every player in NBA History.

I like lots of players. It's just that their are a lot of players that get overrated and I have to correct people who view some players as infallible.

cantstopthee
01-04-2010, 07:27 PM
I actually don't know why people compare Bosh to the other big stars like Wade, Lebron and whatever.

He's a PF, name me one PF that has the quickness, and all those other stuff like them, but whatever thats my opinion.

But I do agree that he has to step it up a bit more, BC did a really good job with bringing in players this off-season, I think that he could still be better than this, especially on the defencive side. But we are in a 5 game W streak, and this video was taken in the 24th.

But yes, Arenas one of the most overrated players in the game

not flashy but dirk can score with them and is one of the most clutch players in the game if not the best(kobe).pau gasol is a superstar too.

Rex-Raptorz
01-04-2010, 07:45 PM
Bosh isn't even an all star stater how the hell is he overrated ?

kidd747
01-04-2010, 08:27 PM
I think Chris Bosh is not overrated Compare apples to apples not oranges, amoung PF CB4 is one of the best, check out his stats amoung PF. If Gary wants to talk about over rated Players lets start a Thread Most over rated player to win a nba championship. Gary avg. 3 pts in the nba finals 2006... Both him and Alonzo Morning get my vote most over rated player to win a champion ship....

ldc62
01-04-2010, 09:35 PM
It's always difficult to evaluate a player's ability when on a bad team. Putting up 25 and 10 on a crappy team is not like doing it for a top tier club. That said...Bosh was an extremely valuable player when put on the US olympic team. He showed his versatility and well rounded skills. Granted it is the the other end of the spectrum of talent but I do believe it shows that if he has skilled players around him, he still shows unique abilities.

As for Gil, he was an explosive scorer and I believe he's returning to form. Before his injuries, who were his peers in the east at the 2position? Here's the list: Wade. That's the list. Perhaps 110million was a bit ambitious but lets not forget how talented this dude is.

So yes they are both Max players

Bosh had nearly the same numbers when the Raptors were a playoff team. Also Raptors aren't that bad, they had a tough schedule.

illegallover
01-05-2010, 05:20 AM
This is my assessment from watching almost every single Toronto Raptor game in the last 15 years. Bosh takes too many jump shots/fade-a-ways and his defense is lack luster. The Raps offense can be quite stagnant at times when bosh demands the ball, it goes in but rarely comes out. However, Bosh has crafty post moves, very quick first step. He draws a ton of fouls and his inside-outside game is a nightmare to defend. ISO is very effective when driving to the hoop. Toronto needs to utilize him in more-pick n rolls and off-ball pick schemes. He's always in JOG mode, please RUN
Nevertheless BOSH is guaranteed to give you 20-10 night in and night out
Health or durability has never been issue. His work ethic is relentless.
Bosh has all the physical tools to shut down opponents defensively he just needs to prove it.

Toronto fans have unreal expectations, Bosh's game has always been unfairly scrutinized by the media and the fans of his home city. Over-rated ? It's funny how Mitchell won NBA coach of the year, and the next year? tossed in the gutter. It's a DOG eat DOG world here in Toronto. I respect Bosh for playing hard every game unlike that ***** boy Vince Carter most over-rated player in the NBA

Max contract is a demand and supply economic, how many superstars are available????
when it comes down gm gary peyton would be on his knees begging bosh to sign his max contract offer, and bosh is the type of guy to sign for less money if it would improve the team's chances of winning.

Personally I would clean house in Toronto