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dsickich123
12-26-2009, 08:31 PM
Rank the top 5 Rookies and Sophomores. Simple as that. You may do top 10 if you wish...

Here is my list:

Rookies:

1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Curry
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Love
5. Rose
6. MAyo
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Gallinari

dsickich123
12-26-2009, 08:40 PM
Any other lists?

Chacarron
12-26-2009, 08:47 PM
Rank the top 5 Rookies and Sophomores. Simple as that. You may do top 10 if you wish...

Here is my list:

Rookies:

1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Curry
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Love
5. Rose
6. MAyo
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Gallinari

I don't know about Westbrook being number 2. His FG % is terrible and in my opinion isn't being as productive as Gasol or Beasley. I know he is averaging close to 7 dimes per game, but he should focus more on driving to the basket than shooting from 20 ft and beyond to bring that % up. I would put Westbrook at 4 or 5 and Gasol, Beasley and/or Gallinari a bit higher on the list. The rookies list looks good. Tyreke is a beast.

dsickich123
12-26-2009, 08:56 PM
I don't know about Westbrook being number 2. His FG % is terrible and in my opinion isn't being as productive as Gasol or Beasley. I know he is averaging close to 7 dimes per game, but he should focus more on driving to the basket than shooting from 20 ft and beyond to bring that % up. I would put Westbrook at 4 or 5 and Gasol, Beasley and/or Gallinari a bit higher on the list. The rookies list looks good. Tyreke is a beast.
You could be right...i did not want to put all the big men above the guards though...and IMO Westbrook is the best guard out of the 2008 draft (YES, even better than Derrick Rose)

DRE'-MAC
12-26-2009, 08:58 PM
Rank the top 5 Rookies and Sophomores. Simple as that. You may do top 10 if you wish...

Here is my list:

Rookies:

1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Curry
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Love
5. Rose
6. MAyo
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Gallinari

The players that are in bold are players that I would put Chase Budinger ahead of.

Chacarron
12-26-2009, 08:59 PM
You could be right...i did not want to put all the big men above the guards though...and IMO Westbrook is the best guard out of the 2008 draft (YES, even better than Derrick Rose)

I definitely agree with what you are saying, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion (for future posters who think otherwise).

madiaz3
12-26-2009, 09:00 PM
You could be right...i did not want to put all the big men above the guards though...and IMO Westbrook is the best guard out of the 2008 draft (YES, even better than Derrick Rose)

But 39% FG is just terrible...

RaptorsFanatic
12-26-2009, 09:02 PM
So Derozan is not a top ten rookie? WTF.

deuces
12-26-2009, 09:05 PM
rose ahead of mayo?

G-legend
12-26-2009, 09:08 PM
Rookies:

1.)Tyreke Evans
2.)Brandon Jennings
3.)Omri Casspi
4.)James Harden
5.)Jonny Flynn
6.)Stephen Curry
7.)Ty Lawson
8.)Serge Ibaka
9.)Taj Gibson
10.)Jrue Holiday

-Ibaka has been playing great the past few games, could be the center for the Thunder

Sophomores:

1.)Brook Lopez
2.)Marc Gasol
3.)Eric Gordon
4.)Kevin Love
5.)Derrick Rose
6.)O.J Mayo
7.)Michael Beasley
8.)Russell Westbrook
9.)Danilo Gallinari
10.)Jason Thompson

-It was hard to put Beasley above Westbrook, but he has been playing great this month. Overall, the sophomore class is very good top to bottom compared to the rookie class.

td0tsfinest
12-26-2009, 09:11 PM
DeRozan and Jerbeko are having a better season than Jrue Holiday or Ibaka.

Mavrix
12-26-2009, 09:21 PM
DeRozan and Jerbeko are having a better season than Jrue Holiday or Ibaka.

DeRozan isn't top 10. I'd take Sam Young and DeJuan Blair over him.

td0tsfinest
12-26-2009, 09:23 PM
DeRozan isn't top 10. I'd take Sam Young and DeJuan Blair over him.

Ye i know but I'm from Toronto, can't hate on loving your home town boys.

TheKing23
12-26-2009, 09:48 PM
Rookies

1. Tyreke Evans
2. Brandon Jennings
3. Jonny Flynn
4. Omri Casspi
5. James Harden
6. Stephen Curry
7. Chase Budinger
8. Ty Lawson
9. Wes Matthews
10. Jonas Jerebko

Sophomores

1. Brook Lopez
2. Derrick Rose
3. Kevin Love
4. Marc Lopez
5. Russell Westbrook
6. OJ Mayo
7. Michael Beasley
8. Eric Gordon
9. Jason Thompson
10. Danilo Gallinari

Looking at these rankings you can really see how deep the last two drafts were... 3 potential all-stars from the 2009 draft in Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings and Blake Griffn (even though he hasn't played yet) and lots of other great players in Jonny Flynn, Steph Curry and James Harden.

With no room for players like Anthony Randolph and Anthony Morrow in the 2008 top 10, the depth of that draft class is really shown as well.

GodsSon
12-26-2009, 09:49 PM
DeRozan isn't top 10. I'd take Sam Young and DeJuan Blair over him.

Dallas is smoking that good-good i see

Mavrix
12-26-2009, 09:50 PM
Dallas is smoking that good-good i see

Seeing as how Young averages the same amount of ppg in 4 less minutes?

GodsSon
12-26-2009, 09:54 PM
Seeing as how Young averages the same amount of ppg in 4 less minutes?

that means nothing though...whenever DeRozan plays he's the 5th option on the court among the starters, so the kid is fighting over scrap buckets, and is never involved offensively...I dont watch Memphis, but im assuming Young is getting a more defined role in lesser minutes, and judging by the game logs, most of the games he scores big are when the Grizz are up/down big; meaning he's doing that in garbage time

Hustla23
12-26-2009, 09:55 PM
:sigh: I am upset by the lack of Danilo love.

He is easily top 5.

You can even make the case that he's top 3.

jiggin
12-26-2009, 10:04 PM
Bayless anyone? Oh yeah, those Blazers are a joke. They are from a part of the country that is forgotten by ESPN...so who cares?

HT9Canada
12-26-2009, 10:24 PM
that means nothing though...whenever DeRozan plays he's the 5th option on the court among the starters, so the kid is fighting over scrap buckets, and is never involved offensively...I dont watch Memphis, but im assuming Young is getting a more defined role in lesser minutes, and judging by the game logs, most of the games he scores big are when the Grizz are up/down big; meaning he's doing that in garbage time

GodsSon, I live in T.O and am a huge Derozan fan and think he is going to be great. But because he is the 5th option and doesn't get the opportunity means he isn't getting great stats. And although it sucks to admit it, stats and wins is what everyone counts. ALA Brandon Roy, he has fine stats, wins a good amount of games but isn't up there with LeBron or Kobe, therefore isn't up there in the MVP race.

Not comparing Derozan to Roy, or Roy to Lebron and Kobe, but the stats is what most people rank by and thats mostly because people cant see all players play every game.

After watching most Raptors games, I agree that I doubt 10 rookies are better than Derozan but everyone is saying that bout their own rookies.

ON A SIDE NOTE. I love Dejuan Blair. This guy is going to be a beast, future allstar and when he gets the minutes with Duncan he is going to be even better. Too bad he isn't a little bigger. (height wise lol)

DRE'-MAC
12-26-2009, 10:37 PM
Rookies
1. Brandon Jennings
2. Tyreke Evans
3. Jonny Flynn
4. Omri Casspi
5. Stephen Curry
6. Dejuan Blair
7. Tyler Hansbrough
8. Chase Budinger
9. Jonas Jerekbo
10. Taj Gibson

Sophomores
1. Brook Lopez
2. Kevin Love
3. Derrick Rose
4. Marc Gasol
5. Jason Thompson
6. Russell Westbrook
7. Michael Beasley
8. Marrees Speights
9. Danilo Gallinari
10. OJ Mayo/Eric Gordon

TheKing23
12-26-2009, 10:41 PM
:sigh: I am upset by the lack of Danilo love.

He is easily top 5.

You can even make the case that he's top 3.

Easily top 5?

So other than the obvious picks of Brook Lopez and Derrick Rose, you'd have him above OJ Mayo, Marc Gasol, Russell Westbrook, Michael Beasley, Eric Gordon and Jason Thompson?

Mavrix
12-26-2009, 10:42 PM
that means nothing though...whenever DeRozan plays he's the 5th option on the court among the starters, so the kid is fighting over scrap buckets, and is never involved offensively...I dont watch Memphis, but im assuming Young is getting a more defined role in lesser minutes, and judging by the game logs, most of the games he scores big are when the Grizz are up/down big; meaning he's doing that in garbage timeYou do know that the Grizzlies have a lot more scoring power than the Raptors right?

Hustla23
12-26-2009, 10:45 PM
Easily top 5?

So other than the obvious picks of Brook Lopez and Derrick Rose, you'd have him above OJ Mayo, Marc Gasol, Russell Westbrook, Michael Beasley, Eric Gordon and Jason Thompson?
Yep. No question.

Danilo has the highest offensive rating amongst all the sophomores and I'm pretty sure he has the highest TS% as well.

His rebounding is a bit lacking for a forward but he has shown a surprising knack for blocking shots.

I think his PER ranks in the top 3 or 4 as well.

TheKing23
12-26-2009, 10:59 PM
Yep. No question.

Danilo has the highest offensive rating amongst all the sophomores and I'm pretty sure he has the highest TS% as well.

His rebounding is a bit lacking for a forward but he has shown a surprising knack for blocking shots.

I think his PER ranks in the top 3 or 4 as well.

I still think the guy is too one dimensional... Jacking up threes till his heart's content.

Take him out of the D'Antoni offense and his numbers would pale in comparison to what he's currently putting up. I see him as a great spot up shooter but all the other guys I said offer something more and, in my opinion, are better players.

Hustla23
12-26-2009, 11:20 PM
I still think the guy is too one dimensional... Jacking up threes till his heart's content.

Take him out of the D'Antoni offense and his numbers would pale in comparison to what he's currently putting up. I see him as a great spot up shooter but all the other guys I said offer something more and, in my opinion, are better players.
If that is your opinion, then I don't think you have seen enough of him :)

I don't like the term "jacking." He shoots threes only if he's open. He is extremely unselfish. And I personally hope he takes as many three pointers as possible because he is pretty damn good at shooting ;)

I disagree that D'antoni's "system" inflates his stats by any means. In fact, I think it restricts him. D'antoni uses him mostly as a spot up shooter and doesn't allow him to create and fully show his playmaking abilities, which we drafted him for. This limits the number of shots that he takes and the assist opportunities as well. This isn't even taking into account that Chris Duhon and Al Harrington actively phase him out and are terrible chuckers :(

Danilo is the Knicks best shotblocker. He is the Knicks best help defender and I rank his man to man defense as slightly inferior to Chandler's. It's safe to say he is one of the Knicks top three defenders.

Like I mentioned before, he isn't the best rebounder but he has definitely been improving.

He isn't simply a spot up shooter. He drives to the rim with great energy. Just last game his shot was not falling so he was driving more and drawing more fouls.

He is a very good playmaker. His handles and passing ability are very underrated I think. IMO, he will develop into a very nice point forward. He has shown great passing ability as well as high bball IQ.

The upside is really huge with Danilo.

This isn't even mentioning that he is already one of the league's best pure shooters.

It's okay that people don't recognize him now.

When the Knicks win more games, I hope people recognize that Danilo was a big part of the success :)

Giaps
12-26-2009, 11:40 PM
For anyone to say that all Gallinari does is shoot 3s tells me that they haven't watched him play. He does a little bit of everything.

Bryrob58
12-26-2009, 11:42 PM
Yeah I'd like to see Jerebko up on that list, though his minutes will start to decline as the Pistons start to get their players back.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2009, 12:02 AM
Rookies
1. Brandon Jennings
2. Tyreke Evans
3. Jonny Flynn
4. Omri Casspi
5. Stephen Curry
6. Dejuan Blair
7. Tyler Hansbrough
8. Chase Budinger
9. Jonas Jerekbo
10. Taj Gibson

Sophomores
1. Brook Lopez
2. Kevin Love
3. Derrick Rose
4. Marc Gasol
5. Jason Thompson
6. Russell Westbrook
7. Michael Beasley
8. Marrees Speights
9. Danilo Gallinari
10. OJ Mayo/Eric Gordon

swap Evans and Jennings (Evans is clearly the best rookie so far), and you nailed it.
Its funny, I don't know if its because Love missed the first 18 games or what, but he continues to be underrated, even though he is the best rebounder in the NBA, kicks in 14.6 ppg, and is EASILY the best passing young big man in the NBA. You have him ranked correct, and he should pass Lopez by years end

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 12:03 AM
I still think the guy is too one dimensional... Jacking up threes till his heart's content.

Take him out of the D'Antoni offense and his numbers would pale in comparison to what he's currently putting up. I see him as a great spot up shooter but all the other guys I said offer something more and, in my opinion, are better players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBdC8U9kKIU
(Video follows all of his plays, makes/misses/passes/TOs etc)

Christmas Day, 26 points, while cold from three (only hit three) Can't say any of his misses were ill-advised shots or shooting just because. Just bad luck with good looks.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2009, 12:06 AM
Gallianari is ranked correctly around 8-10. However, PLEASE give him a low post player worth a crap, and watch him explode into a better Peja. He could easily be a Rashard Lewis/Peja player. Before attacking him because of annoying Knick fans, watch him play. He has a ton of skill

TheKing23
12-27-2009, 12:07 AM
If that is your opinion, then I don't think you have seen enough of him :)

I don't like the term "jacking." He shoots threes only if he's open. He is extremely unselfish. And I personally hope he takes as many three pointers as possible because he is pretty damn good at shooting ;)

I disagree that D'antoni's "system" inflates his stats by any means. In fact, I think it restricts him. D'antoni uses him mostly as a spot up shooter and doesn't allow him to create and fully show his playmaking abilities, which we drafted him for. This limits the number of shots that he takes and the assist opportunities as well. This isn't even taking into account that Chris Duhon and Al Harrington actively phase him out and are terrible chuckers :(

Danilo is the Knicks best shotblocker. He is the Knicks best help defender and I rank his man to man defense as slightly inferior to Chandler's. It's safe to say he is one of the Knicks top three defenders.

Like I mentioned before, he isn't the best rebounder but he has definitely been improving.

He isn't simply a spot up shooter. He drives to the rim with great energy. Just last game his shot was not falling so he was driving more and drawing more fouls.

He is a very good playmaker. His handles and passing ability are very underrated I think. IMO, he will develop into a very nice point forward. He has shown great passing ability as well as high bball IQ.

The upside is really huge with Danilo.

This isn't even mentioning that he is already one of the league's best pure shooters.

It's okay that people don't recognize him now.

When the Knicks win more games, I hope people recognize that Danilo was a big part of the success :)

You're right, I haven't seen him play a lot so i'm basing my opinions off a couple of games and boxscores which don't tell the whole truth.

I will definitely try to catch a few games of him. I like him and I think he could develop into a terrific player because he has something you can't teach... A great basketball brain.

As it stands I would take some of the guys I mentioned before over him, but that probably comes down to their bigger roles on the team and standing out more. I need to see some more of him before I make any harsh judgements but from what your saying he definitely deserves to be up and around the top 5 of 2008.

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 12:12 AM
You're right, I haven't seen him play a lot so i'm basing my opinions off a couple of games and boxscores which don't tell the whole truth.

I will definitely try to catch a few games of him. I like him and I think he could develop into a terrific player because he has something you can't teach... A great basketball brain.

As it stands I would take some of the guys I mentioned before over him, but that probably comes down to their bigger roles on the team and standing out more. I need to see some more of him before I make any harsh judgements but from what your saying he definitely deserves to be up and around the top 5 of 2008.

If you didn't catch my earlier post, here's an unbiased/unfiltered summary of the Miami Christmas day game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBdC8U9kKIU

Cold from three, though I can't say his misses were ill-advised shots. Shows way more than three point shooting.

But for a slightly more polished look at ALL of his game (defense-blocks/steals, passing!) here's a less raw highlight video :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GOwhdfUcUg#t=39s

Hustla23
12-27-2009, 12:13 AM
Gallianari is ranked correctly around 8-10. However, PLEASE give him a low post player worth a crap, and watch him explode into a better Peja. He could easily be a Rashard Lewis/Peja player. Before attacking him because of annoying Knick fans, watch him play. He has a ton of skill
I think he'll be more of a playmaker than Peja or Lewis.

Peja was strictly a shooter much like Reshard is although Reshard can sort of create his own shot as well.

Gallo has already shown great passing ability as well as the ability to create off the dribble.

I'm not exactly sure how people are ranking the players, but statistically speaking Gallo is easily ranked in the top 5. :)

Hustla23
12-27-2009, 12:17 AM
You're right, I haven't seen him play a lot so i'm basing my opinions off a couple of games and boxscores which don't tell the whole truth.

I will definitely try to catch a few games of him. I like him and I think he could develop into a terrific player because he has something you can't teach... A great basketball brain.

As it stands I would take some of the guys I mentioned before over him, but that probably comes down to their bigger roles on the team and standing out more. I need to see some more of him before I make any harsh judgements but from what your saying he definitely deserves to be up and around the top 5 of 2008.
I must admit I am basing my opinion of the other players without having seen much of them either.

I am saying Gallo ranks in the top 5 only because of the statistics that I have seen.

I think the '08 draft class will be really special contrary to what others have said. :)

uncleben989
12-27-2009, 12:23 AM
You do know that the Grizzlies have a lot more scoring power than the Raptors right?

dude, i could usually sense ur cluelessness with raps in threads i have read past, but u truly need to close ur psd account after that post. i mean thats just a plain :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Toenail Clipper
12-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Rookies
1. Brandon Jennings
2. Tyreke Evans
3. Jonny Flynn
4. Omri Casspi
5. Stephen Curry
6. Dejuan Blair
7. Tyler Hansbrough
8. Chase Budinger
9. Jonas Jerekbo
10. Taj Gibson

Sophomores
1. Brook Lopez
2. Kevin Love
3. Derrick Rose
4. Marc Gasol
5. Jason Thompson
6. Russell Westbrook
7. Michael Beasley
8. Marrees Speights
9. Danilo Gallinari
10. OJ Mayo/Eric Gordon

Eric Gordon and OJ mayo all the way down there? Lol
You must be smoking

kswissdaf
12-27-2009, 12:35 AM
I think Gallianari will be a solid player def not a star but with the right team in his prime 18 points a game

NYKnicks4511
12-27-2009, 12:36 AM
1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Curry
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Gallinari
5. Mayo
6. Rose
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Love

That's how I stand, Rooks look decent for the most part, but I think everyone is basing their rankings upon last year as well, which would account for all the Gallinari myths. Kid is top 5 easy IMO, though you may say I'm biased (and I guess I am), I've gone from booing on draft night to loving his game. He is way more than the typical shooter, he wants to become an all around player and even on off-shooting nights he can help the team by rebounding and scoring in different ways.

If you want an in depth look at him for those who haven't watched him much (Knicks aren't on National TV much :P) check out his X-Mas day game vs. Miami.

I think we haven't seen enough of Love just yet to put him too high hence he's at #10, but I've got faith that he'll be one of the top 5 from that draft class

Toenail Clipper
12-27-2009, 12:41 AM
1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Curry
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Gallinari
5. Mayo
6. Rose
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Love

That's how I stand, Rooks look decent for the most part, but I think everyone is basing their rankings upon last year as well, which would account for all the Gallinari myths. Kid is top 5 easy IMO, though you may say I'm biased (and I guess I am), I've gone from booing on draft night to loving his game. He is way more than the typical shooter, he wants to become an all around player and even on off-shooting nights he can help the team by rebounding and scoring in different ways.

If you want an in depth look at him for those who haven't watched him much (Knicks aren't on National TV much :P) check out his X-Mas day game vs. Miami.

I think we haven't seen enough of Love just yet to put him too high hence he's at #10, but I've got faith that he'll be one of the top 5 from that draft class

Yeah okay, Gallinari at 4.
Ya'll knick fans treat him as if he were god or something OR he's a star.
14 pts a game, of course.
Gallinari is more like 10

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 12:52 AM
Yeah okay, Gallinari at 4.
Ya'll knick fans treat him as if he were god or something OR he's a star.
14 pts a game, of course.
Gallinari is more like 10

Any other player on the top 10 would be hardpressed to average 14 a game on a team with Harrington/Duhon/Larry Hughes. (Lee and Chandler also take a good amount of shots) I'm serious. Give him as many shots as the sophomores on no-talent teams and he'd easily score 20+ a game.

Harrington fun fact from a recent article "(as evidenced by his team-leading 451 field goal attempts, which is 72 more than the next-highest total)"

mzgrizz
12-27-2009, 12:58 AM
that means nothing though...whenever DeRozan plays he's the 5th option on the court among the starters, so the kid is fighting over scrap buckets, and is never involved offensively...I dont watch Memphis, but im assuming Young is getting a more defined role in lesser minutes, and judging by the game logs, most of the games he scores big are when the Grizz are up/down big; meaning he's doing that in garbage time

Actually Sam gets a lot of quality minutes.....but you wouldn't know that as you don't watch them, right?
Watch the current NBA clip on the Grizz/Dallas game from today; 2nd quarter dunk.

Toenail Clipper
12-27-2009, 12:59 AM
Any other player on the top 10 would be hardpressed to average 14 a game on a team with Harrington/Duhon/Larry Hughes. I'm serious. Give him as many shots as the sophomores on no-talent teams and he'd easily score 20+ a game.

Harrington fun fact from a recent article "(as evidenced by his team-leading 451 field goal attempts, which is 72 more than the next-highest total)"

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Gallinari
5. Mayo
6. Rose
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Love

Look at the guy's list.

Mayo is a great scorer.
Rose took his team to the playoffs, has been recently playing good basketball.
Eric Gordon can give you 17-20 a game.
Beasley is averaging 15 a game over Gallinari's 14.
Kevin Love is a leading rebounder.
By the way, where Gallinari was last year?

NYKnicks4511
12-27-2009, 01:19 AM
Yeah okay, Gallinari at 4.
Ya'll knick fans treat him as if he were god or something OR he's a star.
14 pts a game, of course.
Gallinari is more like 10

Ya'll Clipper fans treat Blake Griffin as if he'll save your franchise (lol).
GOAT? Child Please, lets see him get on the floor first.

Not all of us were high on Gallo, I've been critical of our draft picks post-Isiah era. If you bothered to watch a couple of other games on Christmas day (aside from your Clippers getting blown out by Phoenix), I'm sure you would know that Gallinari has been helping the team win and been putting up good numbers despite having to get his own night in and night out - see Al Harrington's ridiculous FGA numbers.

I can already tell that just by solely referencing PPG and nothing else you are upset that Eric Gordon was ranked lower than Gallinari and I'll explain why. Gallo does not have an All Star PG to get him the ball, he has an overzealous PF who instead of using his height to go straight up, takes fall away jumpers 90% of the time, and quite frankly isn't the focal point of the offense.

Gordon is arguably the second option on the team besides Kaman, and as a SG has the ball in his hands more often. He plays with Baron Davis, he has solid role players around him and seasoned vets like Camby and Davis ofc. He is essentially the guy, while Gallinari is not.

Gordon is going to be great, but don't be so quick to judge Danilo when you haven't caught a glimpse of him.

NYKnicks4511
12-27-2009, 01:25 AM
1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Gallinari
5. Mayo
6. Rose
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Love

Look at the guy's list.

Mayo is a great scorer.
Rose took his team to the playoffs, has been recently playing good basketball.
Eric Gordon can give you 17-20 a game.
Beasley is averaging 15 a game over Gallinari's 14.
Kevin Love is a leading rebounder.
By the way, where Gallinari was last year?
I'm basing my judgements upon this season.
Mayo = great scorer, I'll flex the 4 and 5 positions between him and Gallo. Rose has been a major disappointment, he was supposed to make the All star team this year, has played well sporadically.
Gordon= You do realize, 17 PPG is only 3 more points than Gallinari is averaging? People fail to remember that there is a basket's difference between 18 and 20 points.
Beasley = 1 more point than Gallinari. This guy was the 2nd pick of the draft. He plays with an all star, he should have one half of the floor all to himself, disappointment if you ask me.
Love= hasn't played enough to catch my attention.
Thompson= will be around for a while, but has little star potential if you ask me.

This is my opinion, if you don't like it, at least back up your reasoning. It's easy to throw stats around.

Toenail Clipper
12-27-2009, 01:32 AM
I'm basing my judgements upon this season.
Mayo = great scorer, I'll flex the 4 and 5 positions between him and Gallo. Rose has been a major disappointment, he was supposed to make the All star team this year, has played well sporadically.
Gordon= You do realize, 17 PPG is only 3 more points than Gallinari is averaging? People fail to remember that there is a basket's difference between 18 and 20 points.
Beasley = 1 more point than Gallinari. This guy was the 2nd pick of the draft. He plays with an all star, he should have one half of the floor all to himself, disappointment if you ask me.
Love= hasn't played enough to catch my attention.
Thompson= will be around for a while, but has little star potential if you ask me.

This is my opinion, if you don't like it, at least back up your reasoning. It's easy to throw stats around.

tell me something that Gallinari is so great at that he's better than all of the guys you listed below him.

blastmasta26
12-27-2009, 01:33 AM
1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Gallinari
5. Mayo
6. Rose
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Love

Look at the guy's list.

Mayo is a great scorer.
Rose took his team to the playoffs, has been recently playing good basketball.
Eric Gordon can give you 17-20 a game.
Beasley is averaging 15 a game over Gallinari's 14.
Kevin Love is a leading rebounder.
By the way, where Gallinari was last year?

I would put Gallinari at 7 on that list. Sure, Beasley is putting up 15 but he doesn't have a ton of chuckers playing with him to limit his touches. Gallinari and Gordon is debatable right now, since Gordon is a bad defender but I would probably put him ahead of Gallo at this point.

NYKnicks4511
12-27-2009, 01:41 AM
tell me something that Gallinari is so great at that he's better than all of the guys you listed below him.

Uh....shooting?
He's made the most 3PT shots in the league. C'mon are you serious?

He's a guy that doesn't need the ball in his hands 24/7 to be effective. He rebounds, he is a good help defender, he blocks shots, he can handle the ball, all at 6'10''. He could be one of the best shooters in NBA History (I'm not calling anything, but he's got a real special stroke and high BBall IQ).

Every guy (with the exception of Love) I listed below Gallinari needs the ball in their hands the majority of the time to be effective.

I understand a lot of people base their judgement upon stats, but there is so much more beyond the stat sheet that determines the worth / skill / or in this case, Rank of a player.

BOSTONMARC
12-27-2009, 01:43 AM
1. B. Lopez- took the biggest leap, he is the whole team
2. Beasley- steped his game up, is all i have to say
3. Love- rebounding machine
4. Gasol- starting to look like his brother
5. Mayo- same
6. Rose- step ur game up rose
7. Gordon- same
8. Westbrook- took little step forward, he be something special in a year or two
9. Gallinari - heading the in the right direction
10. Thompson- honestly idk


and the only change i make to the rookie standings is curry moves into the third spot


1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Curry
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Harden
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Damela
12-27-2009, 02:12 AM
Here is my list:

Rookies:

1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Flynn
4. Casspi
5. Curry
6. Harden
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Budinger

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Beasley
3. Westbrook
4. Gasol
5. Mayo
6. Danillo
7. Gordon
8. Rose
9. Thompson
10. Love

Toenail Clipper
12-27-2009, 03:00 AM
Uh....shooting?
He's made the most 3PT shots in the league. C'mon are you serious?

He's a guy that doesn't need the ball in his hands 24/7 to be effective. He rebounds, he is a good help defender, he blocks shots, he can handle the ball, all at 6'10''. He could be one of the best shooters in NBA History (I'm not calling anything, but he's got a real special stroke and high BBall IQ).

Every guy (with the exception of Love) I listed below Gallinari needs the ball in their hands the majority of the time to be effective.

I understand a lot of people base their judgement upon stats, but there is so much more beyond the stat sheet that determines the worth / skill / or in this case, Rank of a player.

Alright fair enough, this year he's been decent.
But I'm considering both this year and last year.
So whatever.

bigsams50
12-27-2009, 07:09 AM
No Hansbrough love? He's been playing better than some of the players all ya'lls rookie list

eugene
12-27-2009, 10:15 AM
Sophomores

1. Brook Lopez
2. Michael Beasley
3. Marc Gasol
4. Derrick Rose
5. Kevin Love
6. Eric Gordon
7. OJ Mayo
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Jason Thompson
10. Danilo Gallinari

GOGETTERS
12-27-2009, 10:35 AM
[QUOTE=BOSTONMARC;11803367]1. B. Lopez- took the biggest leap, he is the whole team
2. Beasley- steped his game up, is all i have to say
3. Love- rebounding machine
4. Gasol- starting to look like his brother
5. Mayo- same
6. Rose- step ur game up rose


People tend to forget that Rose did not play a lot in the preseason,and started the season off with an ankle injury,so he is now getting back in game shape and speed, plus Vinny " i cant coach if my life depended on it" del negro runs no offense ,when he gets fired hopefully they will bring in a coach who can pull his full potential out and run an offense around him

JordansBulls
12-27-2009, 10:50 AM
1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Gallinari
5. Mayo
6. Rose
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Love

Look at the guy's list.

Mayo is a great scorer.
Rose took his team to the playoffs, has been recently playing good basketball.
Eric Gordon can give you 17-20 a game.
Beasley is averaging 15 a game over Gallinari's 14.
Kevin Love is a leading rebounder.
By the way, where Gallinari was last year?

I find it funny people list Lopez #1 when he is 2-28. Don't say he doesn't have help because Devin Harris was a borderline allstar last year.

Anyway, Rose is #1 on the list he was the only one to make the playoffs despite those other teams being as good.

HiphopRelated
12-27-2009, 10:57 AM
I find it funny people list Lopez #1 when he is 2-28. Don't say he doesn't have help because Devin Harris was a borderline allstar last year.

Anyway, Rose is #1 on the list he was the only one to make the playoffs despite those other teams being as good.
Beasley's been the most consistent player on the Heat.

fins08
12-27-2009, 11:01 AM
My case for Beasley. If he was on the Nets, or Timberwolves, or Grizzlies, he'd have 25 ppg, while if Lopez, Mayo or Love were on the Heat, their stats would suffer because D Wade takes the shots, and has the ball in his hands. Those guys are 1a. or 1b. on their team as options. Beasley is number 2, way behind Wade who gets his stats. And when we sign someone next offseason, his stats won't improve much because he won't have the ball in his hands that much.

SpeeMN
12-27-2009, 11:16 AM
The rookies look good.
But I'm gonna make a case for Kevin Love being the number 1 sophomore.
rookie season- 11.1 pts 9.1 rebs in 25 min per game!!
sophomore season- 14.6 pts 12.9 rebs in 31.5 min per game!!!!
We have gone 5-8 with him back from surgery. We were 2-16 without him!! And since he's been full strength and starting we've won 4 games of our last 7!!! All because of one Kevin Love!!!

1.)Kevin Love
2.)Brook Lopez
3.)Eric Gordon
4.)Marc Gasol
5.)Derrick Rose
6.)O.J Mayo
7.)Michael Beasley
8.)Russell Westbrook
9.)Danilo Gallinari
10.)Jason Thompson

Hawkeye15
12-27-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm basing my judgements upon this season.
Mayo = great scorer, I'll flex the 4 and 5 positions between him and Gallo. Rose has been a major disappointment, he was supposed to make the All star team this year, has played well sporadically.
Gordon= You do realize, 17 PPG is only 3 more points than Gallinari is averaging? People fail to remember that there is a basket's difference between 18 and 20 points.
Beasley = 1 more point than Gallinari. This guy was the 2nd pick of the draft. He plays with an all star, he should have one half of the floor all to himself, disappointment if you ask me.
Love= hasn't played enough to catch my attention.
Thompson= will be around for a while, but has little star potential if you ask me.

This is my opinion, if you don't like it, at least back up your reasoning. It's easy to throw stats around.


Love has played a lot more games in these first 2 years than your boy. And crushed him stat wise. In fact, Love has beat pretty much everyone efficiency wise when speaking of stats. 4th all time for rookies in rebound rate. #1 in the NBA in rebound rate this year. On top of being a 11.1 ppg scorer as a rookie, and 14.7 ppg (higher then Gallinari, and a better 3 point shooter) this year.
Having the fact that you personally haven't seen him play set his ranking is stupid. Look up the numbers. Stats don't tell the whole story, but they tell a big solid one.
Lastly, going on per game stats is ridiculous. Stats per posession make everything fair and square. Not everyone can play for a coach with a 7 second rule to shoot the ball, and basically not care about defense so they can get the ball back. The Knicks players stats are all inflated, they have way more posessions than almost any other team.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2009, 11:38 AM
I find it funny people list Lopez #1 when he is 2-28. Don't say he doesn't have help because Devin Harris was a borderline allstar last year.

Anyway, Rose is #1 on the list he was the only one to make the playoffs despite those other teams being as good.

eh, a Bull team that was the next up and comer, who totally underachieved, and then passed 12 teams to get the #1 (don't get me started on the draft process). Its not like Rose helped them to some 29 game turnaround. He was drafted by a team that had no business getting the #1 pick, and he simply gave them a few more wins (where they already were 2 yrs prior).
I thought he deserved ROY, but he has not shown improvement going into this year, while players like Love, Lopez, and Gallinari have shown major improvement

marlinsfan24
12-27-2009, 11:54 AM
Stop underrating Beasley
2009-2010 season:
15.6 6.8

Month of December:
17.2 6.7

SpeeMN
12-27-2009, 12:11 PM
Love and Beasley are the two player i'd take #1 and #2, then one of the pg's, rose or westbrook, then brook lopez

Hustla23
12-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Love has played a lot more games in these first 2 years than your boy. And crushed him stat wise. In fact, Love has beat pretty much everyone efficiency wise when speaking of stats. 4th all time for rookies in rebound rate. #1 in the NBA in rebound rate this year. On top of being a 11.1 ppg scorer as a rookie, and 14.7 ppg (higher then Gallinari, and a better 3 point shooter) this year.
Having the fact that you personally haven't seen him play set his ranking is stupid. Look up the numbers. Stats don't tell the whole story, but they tell a big solid one.
Lastly, going on per game stats is ridiculous. Stats per posession make everything fair and square. Not everyone can play for a coach with a 7 second rule to shoot the ball, and basically not care about defense so they can get the ball back. The Knicks players stats are all inflated, they have way more posessions than almost any other team.
I wish people would stop pulling the 7 second garbage out of their ***.

If anybody has watched even one game of the Knicks this season, that's not what they do at all.

They run a half-court set offense.

I'm pretty sure the Knicks are one of the worst transition teams in the league.

The Knicks are 10th in pace, so this whole stat inflation crap goes out the window.

fins08
12-27-2009, 12:50 PM
I find it funny people list Lopez #1 when he is 2-28. Don't say he doesn't have help because Devin Harris was a borderline allstar last year.

Anyway, Rose is #1 on the list he was the only one to make the playoffs despite those other teams being as good.
Beasley was the 5 seed, while the Bulls were the 7. Am I wrong?

Stop underrating Beasley
2009-2010 season:
15.6 6.8

Month of December:
17.2 6.7
Yes sir

dwadefan03
12-27-2009, 01:05 PM
My case for Beasley. If he was on the Nets, or Timberwolves, or Grizzlies, he'd have 25 ppg, while if Lopez, Mayo or Love were on the Heat, their stats would suffer because D Wade takes the shots, and has the ball in his hands. Those guys are 1a. or 1b. on their team as options. Beasley is number 2, way behind Wade who gets his stats. And when we sign someone next offseason, his stats won't improve much because he won't have the ball in his hands that much.

i dont think its fair to say that because of wade beasleys growth has been stunted. dwade is a superstar and does take alot of shots but he is also a willing passer. hes been asking for help all season and beasley hadnt delivered until now. theres plenty of room for wade and beasley to take their shots, so i dont think dwade has anything to do with beasley not getting 25 a game.

however i do agree with you that if he were on the twolves or the nets hed get 25-25 ppg but i think its because he wouldnt be held accountable for his defense. spoelstra has kept him on a tight leash, rightfully so, and has turned him into an even better player. also on the wolves/net he wouldnt have a brilliant defender in haslem fighting him for rotational minutes.

bottom line....beasleys a good player destined to be a great player but as of right now there are guys playing better than him.

hawkeyefootball
12-27-2009, 01:21 PM
6. Rose- step ur game up rose

November
16.2/5.3/2.9on the season. (Had a nagging ankle injury to start the year)

December
19.7/6.2/3.7

He was never that bad at any point this season, but since recovering from the injury he has once again started to attack the rim and go for higher percentage shots.

It's become popular to hate on Rose's game, I have no idea why though.

SaimoNETS
12-27-2009, 01:24 PM
CDR is def a top 10 sophomore.

His stats:
16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 2 asp, 1.6 spg on 46% FG

J_M_B
12-27-2009, 01:31 PM
I'll rank the second year players in this order..

1.Brook Lopez
2.Marc Gasol
3.Michael Beasley
4.Kevin Love
5.Derrick Rose
6.O.J Mayo
7.Eric Gordon
8.Russell Westbrook
9.Jason Thompson
10.Danilo Gallinari

J_M_B
12-27-2009, 01:33 PM
CDR is def a top 10 sophomore.

His stats:
16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 2 asp, 1.6 spg on 46% FG

He's been playing at a high level, but I doubt he's a top 10 sophomore

SaimoNETS
12-27-2009, 01:46 PM
He's been playing at a high level, but I doubt he's a top 10 sophomore

Well, he's playing better than Gallinari IMO. I think he should at least be #10.

bkmikeyy
12-27-2009, 01:58 PM
Well, he's playing better than Gallinari IMO. I think he should at least be #10.

put him on a team with some talent and that could win games and we will see if he has those numbers. Gallinari >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDR

SanAntonioSpurs23
12-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Dejuan Blair needs to be on the rookie list. He is 2nd in rebounding amongst rookies and he only plays 15 minutes a game. Taj Gibson is the leading rebounder but he plays 10 minutes more than Blair.

arkanian215
12-27-2009, 02:30 PM
Rank the top 5 Rookies and Sophomores. Simple as that. You may do top 10 if you wish...

Here is my list:

Rookies:

1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Curry
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Sophomores:

1. B. Lopez
2. Westbrook
3. Gasol
4. Love
5. Rose
6. MAyo
7. Gordon
8. Beasley
9. Thompson
10. Gallinari

not saying twil belongs in the top 30 since he sucks but check out this windmill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMtfiwjt3DU

heatking
12-27-2009, 02:34 PM
here is my list for sophmores as i have not seen enough from the rookies to make a case.

brook lopez
michael beasley
derrick rose
russel westbrook
marc gasol
oj mayo
kevin love
eric gordon
jerryd bayless
CDR
i think people are overrating love a little too much, the guy is someone no doubt you would want to have on your team, but he is not an offensive precense on the floor. he has no post up game, and his stats come off of hustle plays on a bad rebounding team.

bayless in my opinion has been turning it up to another level, the dude is lights out.

fairandbalanced
12-27-2009, 02:48 PM
Rooks

1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Harden
4. Casspi
5. Curry

Sophomores:
1. Beasly
2. Lopez
3. Mayo
4. Marc Gasol
5. Kevin Love

dsickich123
12-27-2009, 02:58 PM
I noticed that Russell Westbrook varies from number two to number nine on some lists...

What is the reason for this?

I am on the side that Russell Westbrook is the best guard out of the 2008 draft (YES, better than Rose and Mayo)....

Can someone (WHO ACTUALLY WATCHES ALL THREE PLAYERS PLAY) tell me a reason why they believe that Rose, OJ Mayo play better than Russell Westbrook...

jmtapia
12-27-2009, 03:04 PM
here is my list for sophmores as i have not seen enough from the rookies to make a case.

brook lopez
michael beasley
derrick rose
russel westbrook
marc gasol
oj mayo
kevin love
eric gordon
jerryd bayless
CDR


jason thompson has to be on any of these list...

Young and Stupid
12-27-2009, 03:11 PM
I noticed that Russell Westbrook varies from number two to number nine on some lists...

What is the reason for this?

I am on the side that Russell Westbrook is the best guard out of the 2008 draft (YES, better than Rose and Mayo)....

Can someone (WHO ACTUALLY WATCHES ALL THREE PLAYERS PLAY) tell me a reason why they believe that Rose, OJ Mayo play better than Russell Westbrook...

You are obviously biased.... I can't look at Westbrook's FG% (39%) and take you seriously when you say that he is better than Rose and Mayo. Yes he averages 7 assists a game, but he also averages 3.2 turnovers a game. Yes Westbrook is good, but try to look at the situation objectively he is not better than Rose and Mayo. Anyway...this is my sophmore list (too soon to make a good rookie list):

1. Brook Lopez
2. Marc Gasol
3. Derrick Rose
4. Kevin Love
5. Michael Beasley
6. OJ Mayo
7. Eric Gordon
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Danillo Gallinari
10. CDR

DerekRE_3
12-27-2009, 03:17 PM
here is my list for sophmores as i have not seen enough from the rookies to make a case.

brook lopez
michael beasley
derrick rose
russel westbrook
marc gasol
oj mayo
kevin love
eric gordon
jerryd bayless
CDR
i think people are overrating love a little too much, the guy is someone no doubt you would want to have on your team, but he is not an offensive precense on the floor. he has no post up game, and his stats come off of hustle plays on a bad rebounding team.

bayless in my opinion has been turning it up to another level, the dude is lights out.

CDR over Jason Thompson....nah.

Young and Stupid
12-27-2009, 03:21 PM
CDR over Jason Thompson....nah.

TBH it could go either way. I'm a Nets fan so I'm biased because I watch CDR play, but both should be in the top 10. CDR does put up more points than JT, but Thompson gets more rebounds (more because of his position, but w/e). On second thought, maybe I would put Thompson at 10 and CDR at 11, but its close.

theuuord
12-27-2009, 03:26 PM
I find it funny people list Lopez #1 when he is 2-28. Don't say he doesn't have help because Devin Harris was a borderline allstar last year.

Anyway, Rose is #1 on the list he was the only one to make the playoffs despite those other teams being as good.

Beasley's team made the playoffs and was a higher seed.

Harris was out for a big portion of the season and is still struggling with a nagging groin injury. He's just starting to have flashes of his old self, but he's shot 38% from the field and under 20% from 3 in 20 games. Doesn't matter what he did last year if he's not performing now.

Lopez is over Rose right now, and as a Nets fan I didn't expect that at all. I thought Rose would blow by Lopez this year after Lopez had a slightly better season but a much lower season. Rose had the injury to start the season as well, but he came back healthy very early in the season and still hasn't matched Lopez's individual production.

theuuord
12-27-2009, 03:32 PM
JB, because you love to throw these stats around, Brook is 3rd in PER and estimated wins added among centers with at least 24 MPG (not including Oden, who is out for the season). Rose is 18th among PG's with the same qualification and 17th in EWA.

Now, since you use those stats all the time without context to them as proof of ability, you must concede that Lopez is having a better season, right? Because if you don't, you're just proving that you're a massive hypocrite who applies rules only when they benefit his argument. And no one wants that.

ProdigyI
12-27-2009, 03:36 PM
Starting Lineup for ASG

Rose
Mayo
Beasley
Love
Lopez

Jizztastic

heatking
12-27-2009, 04:12 PM
CDR over Jason Thompson....nah.

yeah, that was my debate. cdr, or thompson. their both really good players tough.

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 04:32 PM
Lastly, going on per game stats is ridiculous. Stats per posession make everything fair and square. Not everyone can play for a coach with a 7 second rule to shoot the ball, and basically not care about defense so they can get the ball back. The Knicks players stats are all inflated, they have way more posessions than almost any other team.

Honestly I'm extremely surprised by your ignorance.

We've held our last 10 opponents under 100 points, almost 4 of them under 90.

We don't, or NEVER HAVE played SSOL under Dantoni.

We don't or never have ran a run and gun system, we rank like 28/30 in the league for fast break points.

We're 10th in the league in pace.

So really, was that a serious post or just the biggest load of assumptions I've seen in a while by a veteran user?

SaimoNETS
12-27-2009, 05:30 PM
put him on a team with some talent and that could win games and we will see if he has those numbers. Gallinari >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDR

Yes because the Knicks are so freaking talented, right? :rolleyes:

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 05:46 PM
Yes because the Knicks are so freaking talented, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah, one of the more talented teams in the league and way more talented than the Nets/Heat. A ton of talent doesn't mean they compliment correctly or make them a great team.

Marbury/Crawford/Randolph/Curry/Nate/Lee in 07-08 was undoubtedly one of the most talented team in the league. No chemistry but there's no denying they had talent.

bkmikeyy
12-27-2009, 06:07 PM
JB, because you love to throw these stats around, Brook is 3rd in PER and estimated wins added among centers with at least 24 MPG (not including Oden, who is out for the season). Rose is 18th among PG's with the same qualification and 17th in EWA.

Now, since you use those stats all the time without context to them as proof of ability, you must concede that Lopez is having a better season, right? Because if you don't, you're just proving that you're a massive hypocrite who applies rules only when they benefit his argument. And no one wants that.



so without lopez the nets have -15 wins? How can he have a high estimated wins added when the team is 2-28?!

bkmikeyy
12-27-2009, 06:09 PM
Yes because the Knicks are so freaking talented, right? :rolleyes:

knicks won as many games in the past week as the nets won all year. Not that crazy to put 16 ppg on a team that is dead last in scoring.

Jonathan2323
12-27-2009, 06:13 PM
Yeah, one of the more talented teams in the league and way more talented than the Nets/Heat. A ton of talent doesn't mean they compliment correctly or make them a great team.

Marbury/Crawford/Randolph/Curry/Nate/Lee in 07-08 was undoubtedly one of the most talented team in the league. No chemistry but there's no denying they had talent.

WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS :confused:

barbjake
12-27-2009, 06:21 PM
1 Rose
2 Lopez
3 Beasley
4 Mayo
5 Love
6 Gordon
7 Gasol
8 Gallinari
9 Westbrook
10 Thompson

For everyone saying Lopez is the #1, he is the whole offense on the worst team in the league... (Maybe ever.) He is a great rebounder, and a descent low post scorer.
Rose is a phenominal point who gets like 40 open shots for teammates a game, they just miss. John Salmons personally throws about 8 Rose assists off the rim each night.
Also, I put Rose at #1 because all the rest of these guys have been playing with allstars. It's easier to be Scottie Pippen than Michael Jordan.

arkanian215
12-27-2009, 06:21 PM
so without lopez the nets have -15 wins? How can he have a high estimated wins added when the team is 2-28?!

cuz it's an estimate.

VA Value Added is the estimated number of points a player adds to a teamís season total above what a "replacement player" (for instance, the 12th man on the roster) would produce. Value Added = ([Minutes * (PER - PRL)] / 67). PRL (Position Replacement Level) = 11.5 for power forwards, 11.0 for point guards, 10.6 for centers, 10.5 for shooting guards and small forwards

EWA Estimated Wins Added is Value Added divided by 30, giving the estimated number of wins a player adds to a teamís season total above what a "replacement player" would produce.
notice how ewa is derived. it has nothing to do with how well the team is performing this season.

im not sure how many people take hollinger's stats seriously. the whole metrics thing is pretty poor considering all he uses are linear models.

i like looking at hollinger's power rankings cuz they give a stats oriented view on things but looking at the actual derivations...

RATING = (((SOS-0.5)/0.037)*0.67) + (((SOSL10-0.5)/0.037)*0.33) + 100 + (0.67*(MARG+(((ROAD-HOME)*3.5)/(GAMES))) + (0.33*(MARGL10+(((ROAD10-HOME10)*3.5)/(10)))))

SOS = Season win/loss percentage of team's opponents, expressed as a decimal (e.g., .500)

SOSL10 = Season win/loss percentage of team's last 10 opponents, expressed as a decimal (e.g., .500)

MARG = Team's average scoring margin

MARGL10 = Team's average scoring margin over the last 10 games

HOME = Team's home games

HOMEL10 = Team's home games over the last 10 games

ROAD = Team's road games

ROADL10 = Team's road games over the last 10 games

GAMES = Team's total games

it looks like a little kid wrote it, much less someone with a college degree.

bkmikeyy
12-27-2009, 06:28 PM
hollinger is a bum, his formulas are all bs

Lord Leoshes
12-27-2009, 06:32 PM
WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS :confused:



Post like that are why i read these forums. Gotta love a true fan.


I have the fattest, & ugliest girl at the party, but to me she's a fox, & the hottest girl there. :facepalm:

mavwar53
12-27-2009, 06:44 PM
1. B. Lopez- took the biggest leap, he is the whole team
2. Beasley- steped his game up, is all i have to say
3. Love- rebounding machine
4. Gasol- starting to look like his brother
5. Mayo- same
6. Rose- step ur game up rose
7. Gordon- same
8. Westbrook- took little step forward, he be something special in a year or two
9. Gallinari - heading the in the right direction
10. Thompson- honestly idk


and the only change i make to the rookie standings is curry moves into the third spot


1. Tyreke
2. Jennings
3. Curry
4. Casspi
5. Flynn
6. Harden
7. Lawson
8. Taj Gibson
9. Serge Ibaka
10. Jrue Holiday

Of all the lists this is what I'd go with

the only thing I'd change in the soph's list I'd drop, beasley to 8 gall to 10, gordon to 9 and move everyone else up to fill spots

Anthony Randolph is heading up this list fast though, he could be as high as 3 by the end of the year. 8 blocks 2 games ago.

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 06:45 PM
WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS :confused:

Yeah. You can't just put a bunch of talent and expect them to win. You're in denial if you don't think those players don't have tremendous talent ON PAPER.

Celtics Big 3 = correct balance of talent
Lakers now: correct balance of talent

Knicks = no. though they had four 20 point scorers and a two ~17-18ppg scorers in Nate/Lee. Terrible coaching and bball IQ by the players, too much offense no teamwork and D but the talent was there.

AI/Marbury were/are TALENTED but NOT winners.

Young and Stupid
12-27-2009, 06:53 PM
Yeah. You can't just put a bunch of talent and expect them to win. You're in denial if you don't think those players don't have tremendous talent ON PAPER.

Celtics Big 3 = correct balance of talent
Lakers now: correct balance of talent

Knicks = no. though they had four 20 point scorers and a two ~17-18ppg scorers in Nate/Lee. Terrible coaching and bball IQ by the players, too much offense no teamwork and D but the talent was there.

AI/Marbury were/are TALENTED but NOT winners.

So you seriously believe that right now the Knicks have more talent than the Nets? :laugh2:

SaimoNETS
12-27-2009, 07:00 PM
knicks won as many games in the past week as the nets won all year. Not that crazy to put 16 ppg on a team that is dead last in scoring.

You're acting as if CDR is a total ballhog. He uses his possessions effectively, shooting at a good 46%, which is higher than Gallinari's 42%. Just because you're on a bad team doesn't mean you get to take more shots than others.

SaimoNETS
12-27-2009, 07:02 PM
Yeah, one of the more talented teams in the league and way more talented than the Nets/Heat. A ton of talent doesn't mean they compliment correctly or make them a great team.

Marbury/Crawford/Randolph/Curry/Nate/Lee in 07-08 was undoubtedly one of the most talented team in the league. No chemistry but there's no denying they had talent.

That was 07-08. This is 09-10. Whole different team.

arkanian215
12-27-2009, 07:15 PM
hollinger is a bum, his formulas are all bs

lol i wonder if i can get paid to do that. it really isnt hard.

madiaz3
12-27-2009, 07:30 PM
That was 07-08. This is 09-10. Whole different team.

I was using it as an example to show how a team can be talented and not perform very well.

Harrington/Hughes/Lee/Gallo/Chandler is still more collective talent a lot of the teams with strong rooks/sophs

dsickich123
12-27-2009, 08:00 PM
There are a lot of Westbrook haters for some reason, putting him at 8 and 9, I hope he uses his under-ratedness as motivation...

Cubs Win
12-27-2009, 08:05 PM
There are a lot of Westbrook haters for some reason, putting him at 8 and 9, I hope he uses his under-ratedness as motivation...

Compared to Rose? Are you kidding? Westbrook has like no haters. He's simply not as good as Rose right now at the PG position and a few other players from his draft class. I'm guessing you think he's the #1 player so far out of the 2008 draft class being a Thunder homer.

dsickich123
12-27-2009, 08:14 PM
Compared to Rose? Are you kidding? Westbrook has like no haters. He's simply not as good as Rose right now at the PG position and a few other players from his draft class. I'm guessing you think he's the #1 player so far out of the 2008 draft class being a Thunder homer.

I dont think he is the number one player, but i do think he is the number one guard out of the 2008 draft. Compare:


Westbrook: 16.4ppg, 7 assists (6.9), 5 rebounds (4.9), 16.48 EFF



Rose: 17.5ppg, 5.7 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 15.14 EFF



You cant call me a homer when your picture is of Derrick Rose (obviously you are biased towards him as well...) Rose has gotten worse, Westbrook has gotten better...

dsickich123
12-27-2009, 08:16 PM
By the way the thunder are 15-14 and the Bulls 11-17 so he is winning more games...

Baller1
12-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Compared to Rose? Are you kidding? Westbrook has like no haters. He's simply not as good as Rose right now at the PG position and a few other players from his draft class. I'm guessing you think he's the #1 player so far out of the 2008 draft class being a Thunder homer.

Simply not as good as Rose? Please explain... because you don't have much to back that statement up so far this season.

Rose is the most overrated/overhyped player in the league. I love Rose, but he is overhyped ridiculously.

Cubs Win
12-27-2009, 08:24 PM
I dont think he is the number one player, but i do think he is the number one guard out of the 2008 draft. Compare:


Westbrook: 16.4ppg, 7 assists (6.9), 5 rebounds (4.9), 16.48 EFF



Rose: 17.5ppg, 5.7 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 15.14 EFF



You cant call me a homer when your picture is of Derrick Rose (obviously you are biased towards him as well...) Rose has gotten worse, Westbrook has gotten better...

First off, by homer I don't mean just because you're a fan of the Thunder. With regularity you seem to overrate their players and things such as that. Second, you do know that Rose was playing hurt for about the first month of the season right? Also consider that Westbrook is playing with one of the top scorers in the NBA in Durant. How much do you think that helps out his assists?

Rose not only has more potential and a higher ceiling than Westbrook, but is already a better player. Westbrook shoots under 40% with defenses focusing on Durant. Imagine if teams knew he had to be the go to guy the way defenses have to play Rose.

stouderose
12-27-2009, 08:26 PM
swap Evans and Jennings (Evans is clearly the best rookie so far), and you nailed it.
Its funny, I don't know if its because Love missed the first 18 games or what, but he continues to be underrated, even though he is the best rebounder in the NBA, kicks in 14.6 ppg, and is EASILY the best passing young big man in the NBA. You have him ranked correct, and he should pass Lopez by years end

joakim noah? much better rebounder

Bryrob58
12-27-2009, 08:29 PM
... Rose > Westbrook... it's kind of a given. Tell me which is better 5 years from now, obviously it will be Rose. Rose has more potential and will be an all-star every year, especially in the east. Westbrook seems to me to be a step below all-star, and he doesn't have the same potential because his hops will fade.

Cubs Win
12-27-2009, 08:31 PM
Simply not as good as Rose? Please explain... because you don't have much to back that statement up so far this season.

Rose is the most overrated/overhyped player in the league. I love Rose, but he is overhyped ridiculously.

Have you watched him play since he's gotten over his injury? Despite the fact that he has no one that good surrounding him right now (a la Durant to Westbrook), Rose has put up good numbers. Over his last five games he has put up 22.8 ppg;6.4 ast;4.6 reb on 48% shooting. Now remember that he's doing that with defenses focusing on him as the main threat unlike Westbrook who is a 2nd option to Durant who teams obviously need to put most of their focus on.

Cubs Win
12-27-2009, 08:37 PM
By the way the thunder are 15-14 and the Bulls 11-17 so he is winning more games...

Yeah, Durant isn't the main reason for their record. :facepalm: You also clearly forgot (or just didn't know) that the Bulls have had both Kirk Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas (both key cogs in the Bulls rotation miss some key time. Hinrich has missed 6 games and Thomas has missed 23 games. Also consider that Vinny Del Negro is a horrible coach that not only blows games, but isn't able to provide the Bulls with an offense that allows Rose to play to his full potential.

Baller1
12-27-2009, 10:37 PM
Have you watched him play since he's gotten over his injury? Despite the fact that he has no one that good surrounding him right now (a la Durant to Westbrook), Rose has put up good numbers. Over his last five games he has put up 22.8 ppg;6.4 ast;4.6 reb on 48% shooting. Now remember that he's doing that with defenses focusing on him as the main threat unlike Westbrook who is a 2nd option to Durant who teams obviously need to put most of their focus on.

Wow, your 5-game stretch argument is very strong. Well, at least it would've been had Westbrook not put up similar stats in the past 5.

18.2 ppg, 5.8 rebounds, and 7.6 assists on 43% shooting. And here's the difference: Westbrook has been consistently putting those numbers up all year. Rose... not so much.

So your stats provide no reason for me to be convinced that Rose is better.

Oh, and at 5.8 rebounds per game... he's second amongst all PG's behind J Kidd.

SeoulBeatz
12-27-2009, 11:06 PM
I still think the guy is too one dimensional... Jacking up threes till his heart's content.

Take him out of the D'Antoni offense and his numbers would pale in comparison to what he's currently putting up. I see him as a great spot up shooter but all the other guys I said offer something more and, in my opinion, are better players.

i dont think you've seen Gallo play then.

i have no reason to defend the kid, as u can see im a blatant sixers homer. but the kid can ball and i think he has nowitzki type potential. his shot is nasty and he'll surprise u with his playmaking ability. his defense is terrible but that's not what he's on the court to do and that will come in time.

he plays hard and isn't afraid of contact.

solid young player with very good potential. i love players who play hard like he does without asking questions.

boeknows
12-28-2009, 02:34 AM
joakim noah? much better rebounder

Noah.....12.4 rpg 4.2 offensive rpg in 34.9 mins

Love.....12.9 rpg 4.5 offensive rpg in 31.5 mins


Also to the person that said the Wolves are a horrible rebounding team. Jefferson averages 9 rpg good for 19th in the league. And the Wolves as a team are the 3rd best rebounding team in the league with 43.8 per night.

abe_froman
12-28-2009, 02:41 AM
joakim noah? much better rebounder

noah-rpg:12.4,r%:19.7
love-rpg:12.9,%:22.5

...so umm how?

Hawkeye15
12-28-2009, 11:51 AM
joakim noah? much better rebounder

Love- 12.9 rpg, #1 in rebound rate in the NBA

Noah- 12.4 rpg, #10 in rebound rate in the NBA

pretty clear

theuuord
12-28-2009, 12:46 PM
so without lopez the nets have -15 wins? How can he have a high estimated wins added when the team is 2-28?!

Because some players have a negative estimated wins added. It's rare, but not for the Nets this season, lol. Rafer Alston is at a negative, as is Terrence Williams.... and also it's an estimate. It relies on what a team's win-loss performance should be based on their overall output, without taking luck and randomness into account.


JB my question still stands:

JB, because you love to throw these stats around, Brook is 3rd in PER and estimated wins added among centers with at least 24 MPG (not including Oden, who is out for the season). Rose is 18th among PG's with the same qualification and 17th in EWA.

Now, since you use those stats all the time without context to them as proof of ability, you must concede that Lopez is having a better season, right? Because if you don't, you're just proving that you're a massive hypocrite who applies rules only when they benefit his argument. And no one wants that.

Cubs Win
12-28-2009, 03:01 PM
Love- 12.9 rpg, #1 in rebound rate in the NBA

Noah- 12.4 rpg, #10 in rebound rate in the NBA

pretty clear

Pretty clear that Noah is the better rebounder! :p

But in all seriousness, Love is quite a gifted rebounder.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2009, 03:06 PM
^haha, nice.
All it means is if Love played 5 mpg more, like the players that are leaders, he would be winning the rebounding crown pretty easily. 14 rpg if he played 35 minutes, at least.

dominater6192
12-29-2009, 04:53 PM
I dont think he is the number one player, but i do think he is the number one guard out of the 2008 draft. Compare:


Westbrook: 16.4ppg, 7 assists (6.9), 5 rebounds (4.9), 16.48 EFF



Rose: 17.5ppg, 5.7 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 15.14 EFF



You cant call me a homer when your picture is of Derrick Rose (obviously you are biased towards him as well...) Rose has gotten worse, Westbrook has gotten better...
Okay first of all efficency means nothing this is'nt hockey it is basketball. You can hardly base anything off the efficiency stat for example David Lee has just about the same efficiency as Dwight Howard (Howard:+ 24.90 Lee: +24.40)and we both no that Howard is a whole different level player than Lee. And I notice as you include efficiency you failed to include two of the most important statistics for a PG FG% and TO's.
If you wish to talk efficiency FG% is the how efficient one can SCORE and Westbrook is shooting a miniscule .398% compared to Rose's .455%. Westbrook is in the lower 5 of NBA guards for shooting % while Rose is better than average. Unlike Rose , Westbrook has another star player on the court with him, Kevin Durant. Thunder opponents defenses concentrate first and foremost on KD and then looking at Westbrook. Westbrook is seen as a 2ND OPTION and sometimes even third, depending on how good a game Green is having. Rose on other hand is all Bulls opponents main priority. He is one of the few guards double teamed on pick and rolls. Even with the greater attention Rose is shooting a better percentage than Westbrook.
Turnovers are such an important stat for PG. it reflects their decision making and ability to protect ball. Rose has a solid turnover ratio 2.8 per 36MPG while Westbrook has a very poor ratio 3.3 TO per 34 MPG. Rose is much more reliable with the ball in his hand, he makes better decisions and thus has fewer turnovers.
The other most important stat for PG is ofcourse assists, and I can't deny it Westbrook is averaging more assists than Rose, however it is very hard to dictate assists. Because assists reflect the players teammates ability to score.Rose is a pass first player and dishes the ball more than Westbrook.[As seen by: In less minutes Westbrook has the same amounts of shots as Rose (13.9-Rose, 13.6-Westbrook)]. But somehow Westrook still has more assists... this is becuase his teamates are able to execute better. The Bulls are 2ND WORST SHOOTING TEAM in NBA while the Thunder are 18th best. ASSISTS REFLECT THE PLAYERS TEAMATES ABILITY TO SCORE (AS WELL AS ABILITY TO FACILITATE) BUT THAT IS A VARIABLE BOTH ROSE AND WESTBROOK CAN NOT CONTROL. Westbrook has team mates who shoot the rock better than Roses and he ofcourse has KD who alone will provide him with an assist or two per night.
The only area where Westbrook is better is defense. But Rose has improved and Westbrook is'nt as effective in pass lanes as he was last season (1.3 SPG in 08 in 09 only.9 SPG). He is still better but Rose is improving and has skills to be equally good or better.
Which brings me to my final question: HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY SAY ROSE IS NOT IMPROVING>? (I will not argue that Westbrook is improving because he clearly is) Like i mentioned above Rose defense has improved.But another reason is the fact that Rose has'nt been healty yet this year, but still has more PPG in fewer MPG than last year. Rose midrange game went from a nightmare last year to best on the team this year. He is now able to score with a jumper as well instead of having to rely soley on his athleticism. Being injuried Rose has been robbed of his amazing athleticism for most of the year not being nealry as quick or being able to get to rim at will. The last few weeks Rose has been very close to 100% and his improved midrange game combined with athleticism allowed him to average 21.5PPG and 6.3 APG the last ten games. This is only a small taste of what will happen when Rose is completely healty for a long span and at that point you'll have no question that Rose is the better guard.(Even with injury Rose is still better) Right now your Westbrook agrument is cute but it is NAIVE AS HELL and your going to regret it later.

theuuord
12-29-2009, 05:13 PM
absolutely shocking that JB has yet to return to this thread.


</sarcasm>

Gators123
12-29-2009, 05:34 PM
Jonas Jerebko is a top 10 rookie

LanceUpperCut
12-29-2009, 06:02 PM
Hey I like D-Rose but holy **** why does every thread end up being about him vs. ? who ever.