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JordansBulls
12-21-2009, 03:09 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/news/story?id=4758457





The Top 50 Lakers of All Time

This season marks the 50th anniversary of the Lakers moving from Minneapolis to Los Angeles before the start of the 1960-61 campaign. We figured what better way to celebrate the anniversary than to rank the top 50 Lakers over the course of those years. ESPN Los Angeles writer Dave McMenamin provided his expertise creating this list. Disagree with the order? Create your own rankings and talk about it.

50-41 40-31 30-21 20-11 10-1
50. Ron Artest 40. Luke Walton 30. Mel Counts 20. Robert Horry 10. Byron Scott
49. Horace Grant 39. Darrall Imhoff 29. Trevor Ariza 19. A.C. Green 9. Gail Goodrich
48. Mike McGee 38. Andrew Bynum 28. Glen Rice 18. Happy Hairston 8. James Worthy
47. Leroy Ellis 37. Elmore Smith 27. Mychal Thompson 17. Lamar Odom 7. Elgin Baylor
46. Kermit Washington 36. Sam Perkins 26. Bob McAdoo 16. Rudy LaRusso 6. Wilt Chamberlain
45. Cazzie Russell 35. Elden Campbell 25. Rick Fox 15. Norm Nixon 5. Jerry West
44. Jim Price 34. Cedric Ceballos 24. Nick Van Exel 14. Pau Gasol 4. Shaquille O'Neal
43. Ron Harper 33. Kurt Rambis 23. Jim McMillian 13. Jamaal Wilkes 3. Kobe Bryant
42. Sedale Threatt 32. "Hot" Rod Hundley 22. Eddie Jones 12. Michael Cooper 2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
41. Jim Chones 31. Frank Selvy 21. Vlade Divac 11. Derek Fisher 1. Magic Johnson

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 03:12 PM
as long as Magic is #1, I am okay with it. There are a bunch I would slide around a few spots, but fairly solid.

Chronz
12-21-2009, 03:14 PM
Shaq above Jerry? As a LAKER?

Hellcrooner
12-21-2009, 03:17 PM
^led us t three rings west failed miserably over and over

Chronz
12-21-2009, 03:20 PM
^led us t three rings west failed miserably over and over
So? Oh right rings are the determining factor in any argument, lets not waste our brain cells on comparing the circumstances of those titles, and forget all about years of service/loyalty to that franchise.

J_M_B
12-21-2009, 03:23 PM
Solid list....

I'll probably shuffle a couple players around, but overall a good list.

Toenail Clipper
12-21-2009, 03:35 PM
Luke Walton?
Lol

lakerboy
12-21-2009, 03:42 PM
By the end of Kobe's career, he'll be #1

Toenail Clipper
12-21-2009, 03:43 PM
By the end of Kobe's career, he'll be #1

only if he can win 10 championships

INeedMyJays
12-21-2009, 03:58 PM
Why's Ron Artest on that list? Magic deserves number 1!! As great as Kobe is, he's not gonna come close to Johnson..well at least in my opinion.

Raph12
12-21-2009, 04:04 PM
I think Kobe will finish #2, unless he can win 2 more titles.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-21-2009, 04:09 PM
Artest?

Hellcrooner
12-21-2009, 04:10 PM
kobe will never surpass magic, i dont care if he wins 23 rings,

ARMIN12NBA
12-21-2009, 04:17 PM
kobe will never surpass magic, i dont care if he wins 23 rings,

:laugh2:

If Kobe wins 1-2 more titles, 1-2 more Finals MVP, and continues his current level of play (with the accolades of NBA teams, All-Star, etc.) for another 3-4 years, then he surpasses Magic.

JIMMY CONWAY
12-21-2009, 04:20 PM
^led us t three rings west failed miserably over and over

He has more than one ring... he orchestrated putting together the best teams as a G.M...and he's the logo.

Hellcrooner
12-21-2009, 04:25 PM
:laugh2:

If Kobe wins 1-2 more titles, 1-2 more Finals MVP, and continues his current level of play (with the accolades of NBA teams, All-Star, etc.) for another 3-4 years, then he surpasses Magic.
problem is i dont remember aic ego ever costing us any rings or any non playoff appearences.

mgic also never asked out.

a player that asked out and that threatened with signing wiht clips as fa if we didnt trade a guy he didnt like can NEVER be the best of our franchise

magichatnumber9
12-21-2009, 04:30 PM
This was a good history lesson, good job espn

Hellcrooner
12-21-2009, 04:32 PM
by the way the list is ********.

artest? ariza? come on give me a rest, they barely have played in the team.

i also think pau is overated FOR NOW if he wins another ring or two he can maybe crack the top 10 but for now 14 is overated

HuRRiCaNeS324
12-21-2009, 04:34 PM
Why the hell is Luke Walton there? He's terrible

Hellcrooner
12-21-2009, 04:36 PM
yeah walton thity only a bit down than former mvp and socring titl winner bobmcadoo..... this list is a joke

TheKing23
12-21-2009, 04:46 PM
problem is i dont remember aic ego ever costing us any rings or any non playoff appearences.

mgic also never asked out.

a player that asked out and that threatened with signing wiht clips as fa if we didnt trade a guy he didnt like can NEVER be the best of our franchise

I agree... Kobe should never be considered ahead of Magic, Kareem, West, Worthy, Baylor and maybe even Shaq.

The list is BS though... Gasol 14th? For 2 years of play? Lamar Odom 17th... Both ahead of AC Green? Trevor Ariza ahead of Kurt Rambis?

What a joke...

G-Funk
12-21-2009, 04:55 PM
problem is i dont remember aic ego ever costing us any rings or any non playoff appearences.

mgic also never asked out.

a player that asked out and that threatened with signing wiht clips as fa if we didnt trade a guy he didnt like can NEVER be the best of our franchise

Actually Magic did ask out and got his coach fired. SO by your retarted statement Magic can't be #1 so it must go to Kareem.

Gators123
12-21-2009, 04:56 PM
Artest has played 26 games and hes averaging 12ppg 4rpg 4apg. Why is he on the list?

G-Funk
12-21-2009, 04:57 PM
I agree... Kobe should never be considered ahead of Magic, Kareem, West, Worthy, Baylor and maybe even Shaq.

The list is BS though... Gasol 14th? For 2 years of play? Lamar Odom 17th... Both ahead of AC Green? Trevor Ariza ahead of Kurt Rambis?

What a joke...

fool, you need to stfu with that ****, u don't even know the Lakers history for u to be speaking, Mr Lebron fan.

Lakersfan2483
12-21-2009, 05:07 PM
problem is i dont remember aic ego ever costing us any rings or any non playoff appearences.

mgic also never asked out.

a player that asked out and that threatened with signing wiht clips as fa if we didnt trade a guy he didnt like can NEVER be the best of our franchise

Once again you are wrong, Magic was responsible for getting his coach fired and was close to walking. He also had friction with Kareem, learn your lakers' history, it will do wonders for you in the future.:rolleyes:

Hellcrooner
12-21-2009, 05:09 PM
^the only trpible with magic i rmemebr is he wanted worthy traded for aguirre who was his friend.

Lakersfan2483
12-21-2009, 05:09 PM
Good list, but West should be ahead of Shaq and Kobe has a chance to be no. 1 with 2 more titles and 2 finals mvps.

Lakersfan2483
12-21-2009, 05:10 PM
^the only trpible with magic i rmemebr is he wanted worthy traded for aguirre who was his friend.

He was responsible for getting Paul Westhead fired, look it up.

PDT4LIFE
12-21-2009, 05:14 PM
Whoever made this list must be young. Shaq before Wilt? Come on now lmao, look at the stats......

JordansBulls
12-21-2009, 05:14 PM
kobe will never surpass magic, i dont care if he wins 23 rings,

That's ridiculous bro. It's not like he is Robert Horry or someone.

Lakersfan2483
12-21-2009, 05:17 PM
I agree... Kobe should never be considered ahead of Magic, Kareem, West, Worthy, Baylor and maybe even Shaq.

The list is BS though... Gasol 14th? For 2 years of play? Lamar Odom 17th... Both ahead of AC Green? Trevor Ariza ahead of Kurt Rambis?

What a joke...

Why not? He's 2nd all time in Lakers history in terms of scoring, owns numerous records, has played 10 plus years in the same uniform, is at the top in playoff scoring, assists, etc. in comparison to other Lakers' players. He's been all nba 1st team most of his career, all nba defensive 1st team for a large part of his career, won 4 titles, been to 6 NBA finals, won 1 regular season MVP, 1 finals mvp, been an all star starter since 98, top 16 in scoring all time. You are crazy if you don't think he's ahead of Worthy and Baylor. I could see you arguing for West, but not Baylor or Worthy. Kobe's earned his no. 3 spot and is looking to move up.

G-Funk
12-21-2009, 05:18 PM
He was responsible for getting Paul Westhead fired, look it up.




http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/johnson_magic.html

In November 1981, five months after signing a $25-million, 25-year contract, Magic asked the Lakers to trade him or fire Westhead. The next day, owner Jerry Buss canned Westhead, replacing him with Pat Riley. Magic got booed for awhile for getting his coach fired -- it was said this was the ultimate Magic act, making one's coach disappear -- but his play -- and smile -- eventually won the fans back.

TheKing23
12-21-2009, 05:18 PM
fool, you need to stfu with that ****, u don't even know the Lakers history for u to be speaking, Mr Lebron fan.

:facepalm:

Haha, ok can you please explain why Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom are ahead of AC Green? You think Trevor Ariza is a bigger part of Lakers history than Kurt Rambis?

How old are you man?? It seems from your ignorant post that I know more about the history of your team than you do...

Lakersfan2483
12-21-2009, 05:21 PM
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/johnson_magic.html

In November 1981, five months after signing a $25-million, 25-year contract, Magic asked the Lakers to trade him or fire Westhead. The next day, owner Jerry Buss canned Westhead, replacing him with Pat Riley. Magic got booed for awhile for getting his coach fired -- it was said this was the ultimate Magic act, making one's coach disappear -- but his play -- and smile -- eventually won the fans back.

:clap:

floyd!!
12-21-2009, 05:25 PM
how the crap is luke walton above guys like ron harper and horace grant? in fact, how is he on this list at all? bill walton should be ahead of him on this list and he never played a freakin game for the lakers.

and where the hell is Slava Medvidenko?

jimbobjarree
12-21-2009, 05:26 PM
so is this the laker forum now?

Kakaroach
12-21-2009, 05:29 PM
so is this the laker forum now? Yeah put this thread in the Lakers/Classic NBA forum. We have em for a reason. :shrug:

Bruno
12-21-2009, 05:40 PM
problem is i dont remember aic ego ever costing us any rings or any non playoff appearences.

mgic also never asked out.

a player that asked out and that threatened with signing wiht clips as fa if we didnt trade a guy he didnt like can NEVER be the best of our franchise

:confused: Wow

How can you claim Magic as your favorite player and not know about the Westhead situation?

Then, you're going to bash Kobe for summer '07? I'm sure he learned a thing or two from Magic regarding "applying pressure to create a diamond". With out Kobe pressuring the franchise, I doubt your boy Gasol ever plays a game in a Laker uniform.

Kobe is in his rightful place at #3 right now, and is an indisputable, no questions asked top five Laker of all time.

At this point in time, it's an uphill battle arguing West over Kobe. KB's longevity with the team, and fourth championship as a Laker surpasses what Shaq did as a Laker.

Saying he'll never pass Magic is practically rooting against this contemporary Laker team. All Laker fans should want Kobe to pass Magic; for him to be eligible to do that, this team would have to continue to win and be successful, something every Laker fan should want.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 05:41 PM
I agree with a couple of posters that if Kobe wins a couple more rings, while sustaining his numbers in an elite range for 4 more years, he could move ahead of Magic. That is a lot of if's, but its possible, no doubt.

Bruno
12-21-2009, 05:44 PM
I agree with a couple of posters that if Kobe wins a couple more rings, while sustaining his numbers in an elite range for 4 more years, he could move ahead of Magic. That is a lot of if's, but its possible, no doubt.

Magic will probably always be #1 in the hearts of many Laker fans. But if Kobe wins more rings than Magic, another MVP, and other Laker records/accolades, it'll be hard to deny him the top spot, considering his longevity and early start with the team.

Also, the fact that Magic was forced to retire young counts against him here; Kobe has already played more games as a Laker than Magic did, and will pass Magic in total playoff games played this year, if they make it to the finals.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 05:50 PM
Magic will probably always be #1 in the hearts of many Laker fans. But if Kobe wins more rings than Magic, another MVP, and other Laker records/accolades, it'll be hard to deny him the top spot, considering his longevity and early start with the team.

all very true. I think Magic did it against tougher competition, but that is just my opinion. Kobe will most likely end up playing 17 years or more, all with the Lakers, and end up with 4-5 rings, and many Laker records. On top of that, he has 1 MVP, and is the frontrunner for this year. Kobe could very well surpass Magic.
But there is an emotional attachement to Magic that just can't be denied. It will be tough for him to be passed.

ARMIN12NBA
12-21-2009, 05:53 PM
problem is i dont remember aic ego ever costing us any rings or any non playoff appearences.

mgic also never asked out.

a player that asked out and that threatened with signing wiht clips as fa if we didnt trade a guy he didnt like can NEVER be the best of our franchise

Play on the court>squabbles on the side (which is ultimately irrelevant, Kobe is still a Laker)

Funny thing about your post is that you fail to remember that Magic had his own problems with Lakers management too.

Bruno
12-21-2009, 05:53 PM
I think Kobe will finish #2, unless he can win 2 more titles.

I agree with you, but I do think the Lakers win two more with Kobe, and this Laker team. I think Kobe moves in front of KAJ with one more title. For him to pass Magic, in my book, he'd need to not tie, but surpass him in rings. Another MVP wouldn't hurt.

Kobe will no doubt own every Laker scoring record, and probably finish top five all time, league wide, when it's all said and done.

ARMIN12NBA
12-21-2009, 05:54 PM
I agree... Kobe should never be considered ahead of Magic, Kareem, West, Worthy, Baylor and maybe even Shaq.

:laugh: Thanks for the laugh. Made my day. :D

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 05:56 PM
Worthy???? haha.

ARMIN12NBA
12-21-2009, 06:00 PM
I wonder if another Laker fan can verify this, since we are on the discussion:

Didn't Magic get Norm Nixon traded because he couldn't stand sharing the ball with him in the backcourt?

Bruno
12-21-2009, 06:03 PM
all very true. I think Magic did it against tougher competition, but that is just my opinion. Kobe will most likely end up playing 17 years or more, all with the Lakers, and end up with 4-5 rings, and many Laker records. On top of that, he has 1 MVP, and is the frontrunner for this year. Kobe could very well surpass Magic.
But there is an emotional attachement to Magic that just can't be denied. It will be tough for him to be passed.

That's a solid point. Even if Bryant wins ten rings, I'd still have zero problem with people saying Magic was their all time favorite, or the greatest Laker in their eyes. No matter what any other Laker ever does, Magics accolades, personality, and style of play will keep him a fan favorite, and the top Laker in the eyes of many fans, especially in the old school crowd.

I'd agree that Magic did it against tougher competition. The threepeat was never challenged by a tough opponent in the finals (although a case could be made that the 2000's Spurs were as tough a rival to the 00's Lakers, than any rival the Lakers had in the 80's); going 15-1 in the playoffs in '01 would support that lack of rivalry, or just utter dominance, an argument exists for both. IMO, Bryant and the Lakers lost against their toughest opponents, the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. I think I might argue that those teams were better, or just as good defensively than what Magic faced in the 80's.

I'd also argue that Magics teams in the 80's were more stacked than the '04 Lakers (who had zero bench and two aging players who contributed almost nothing) and the '08 Lakers, who played the Celtics with virtually no Ariza, and no Bynum.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 06:07 PM
[/B]

That's a solid point. Even if Bryant wins ten rings, I'd still have zero problem with people saying Magic was their all time favorite, or the greatest Laker in their eyes. No matter what any other Laker ever does, Magics accolades, personality, and style of play will keep him a fan favorite, and the top Laker in the eyes of many fans, especially in the old school crowd.

I'd agree that Magic did it against tougher competition. The threepeat was never challenged by a tough opponent in the finals (although a case could be made that the 2000's Spurs were as tough a rival to the 00's Lakers, than any rival the Lakers had in the 80's); going 15-1 in the playoffs in '01 would support that lack of rivals, or just utter dominance, an argument exists for both. IMO, Bryant and the Lakers lost against their toughest opponents, the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. I think I might argue that those teams were better, or just as good defensively than what Magic faced in the 80's.

I'd also argue that Magics teams in the 80's were more stacked than the '04 Lakers (who had zero bench and two aging players who contributed almost nothing) and the '08 Lakers, who played the Celtics with no Ariza, and no Bynum.


i agree with everything you say here

Bruno
12-21-2009, 06:13 PM
I think Ariza is a little high on the list. In all, I think its a decent list. Which is all you can ask for, with these things.

Ty22Mitchell
12-21-2009, 06:41 PM
Bruno87 you sound really smart so my comment is meant to offend you or insult your intelligence..

you just admitted to having an extreme bias towards magic, which makes your opinion invalid.. when assessing the title of best laker, the judging should be based on totally factual information.. I myself believe magic is better then kobe right now.. but if kobe gets to 6 championships, wins 1 more mvp, I'm then giving it to kobe.. infact, if kobe does that and maintains his great scoring, we'll be talking about 1 michael jorden 1a kobe bean bryant..

i disagree about the part of tougher competition.. magic faced all man on man defense which is a lot easier then the zone defense kobe now plays against.. magic era was more physical but "better" would be incorrect.. the 08 celtics were great.. they did get every call in boston, which was painfully obvious, but they were good.. I always say this.. the 04 pistons were not that good!! keep in mind karl malone didn't play and gary payton was slowed by injury.. if we were healthy when the finals came, we would have beat them that year.. the 04 players weren't a joke.. it was a forgone conclusion that they'd be in the finals...

Ty22Mitchell
12-21-2009, 06:43 PM
and can we please stop bashing shaq.. he gave us 7 great years and 1 good year.. and to the notion that wilt's "LAKER" years were better then shaq's, well i suggest you read your laker history books..

lavell12
12-21-2009, 06:49 PM
I would put Kobe at 2, Kareem may have had a better total career so far by some of those years were as a Buck.

Atticus Finch
12-21-2009, 07:04 PM
Whoever made this list must be young. Shaq before Wilt? Come on now lmao, look at the stats......

Shaq on the Lakers > Wilt on the Lakers. When comparing careers I think there's no question who was better, but Wilt was on the Lakers during the twilight of his career.

Personally I'd rank West over Shaq for the simple fact that West was a Laker for life. I get the feeling that if Shaq had lost as many finals as West did he would have jumped ship and moved on.

Glad to see Rick Fox on the list too. He was arguably my favorite player from the 3-peat years,

Atticus Finch
12-21-2009, 07:15 PM
[/B]
I'd agree that Magic did it against tougher competition. The threepeat was never challenged by a tough opponent in the finals (although a case could be made that the 2000's Spurs were as tough a rival to the 00's Lakers, than any rival the Lakers had in the 80's); going 15-1 in the playoffs in '01 would support that lack of rivalry, or just utter dominance, an argument exists for both. IMO, Bryant and the Lakers lost against their toughest opponents, the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics. I think I might argue that those teams were better, or just as good defensively than what Magic faced in the 80's.


I tend to agree, but I think everyone is on the same page during the 3-peat years by saying the western conference finals were the true finals. The Blazers and Kings were some of the best teams to never win it all. But youre completely right about the finals matchups, the Nets/Pacers/Sixers never stood a chance.

That '04 Pistons team was incredible though, I'm still in shock about how easily they completely dismantled the Lakers.

JWO35
12-21-2009, 07:20 PM
What the hell did Luke Walton and Ron Artest do to be on this list!?

xbrackattackx
12-21-2009, 07:22 PM
I would Move Grant,West,Worthy and Divac up a couple of spots of than that pretty solid.

kEviN21
12-21-2009, 07:28 PM
Hurts my eyes to look through it but is Gary Payton and Karl Malone on there lol?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-21-2009, 07:44 PM
so is this the laker forum now?

:confused:


Hurts my eyes to look through it but is Gary Payton and Karl Malone on there lol?

What did they do for the lakers?

cheetos185
12-21-2009, 07:45 PM
who cares about top50 in next 50 years ppl will only remember guys like magic shaq and kobe

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-21-2009, 08:01 PM
And wheres that guy who stated that Lebron is better shooter than kobe?

Kobe at rim-61% <10 feet-56% 10-15 feet-50% 16-23 feet-44%
Lebron at rim 71% <10 feet-45% 10-15 feet 33% 16-23 feet 41%

Ansy
12-21-2009, 08:21 PM
So? Oh right rings are the determining factor in any argument, lets not waste our brain cells on comparing the circumstances of those titles, and forget all about years of service/loyalty to that franchise.

??

The circumstances of those titles were that Shaq was having some of the most dominant seasons and playoff runs in the history of the NBA, and being so unstoppable that the league literally changed the rules of the game (brought back zone defense) just to try and give other teams a fair fight against him.

The "circumstances of titles" argument is fine in a lot of cases, such as Isiah vs Stockton, but not in the case of Shaq's titles. He was clearly the best player in the game during those years.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 08:49 PM
??

The circumstances of those titles were that Shaq was having some of the most dominant seasons and playoff runs in the history of the NBA, and being so unstoppable that the league literally changed the rules of the game (brought back zone defense) just to try and give other teams a fair fight against him.

The "circumstances of titles" argument is fine in a lot of cases, such as Isiah vs Stockton, but not in the case of Shaq's titles. He was clearly the best player in the game during those years.

his point was, Shaq was the best player no matter what. If he won no titles over those few years, he was still the best player.
Championships are the icing on the cake. But they by no means define a career.

Trevor Ariza
12-21-2009, 09:13 PM
No.27

Not bad at all.

Bruno
12-21-2009, 09:19 PM
Bruno87 you sound really smart so my comment is meant to offend you or insult your intelligence..

you just admitted to having an extreme bias towards magic, which makes your opinion invalid.. when assessing the title of best laker, the judging should be based on totally factual information.. I myself believe magic is better then kobe right now.. but if kobe gets to 6 championships, wins 1 more mvp, I'm then giving it to kobe.. infact, if kobe does that and maintains his great scoring, we'll be talking about 1 michael jorden 1a kobe bean bryant..

i disagree about the part of tougher competition.. magic faced all man on man defense which is a lot easier then the zone defense kobe now plays against.. magic era was more physical but "better" would be incorrect.. the 08 celtics were great.. they did get every call in boston, which was painfully obvious, but they were good.. I always say this.. the 04 pistons were not that good!! keep in mind karl malone didn't play and gary payton was slowed by injury.. if we were healthy when the finals came, we would have beat them that year.. the 04 players weren't a joke.. it was a forgone conclusion that they'd be in the finals...

Most posters who've been posting on this forum for a while, or have contributed more than 28 posts, or acknowledge the signatures of other posters would tell you my bias is towards KB, always has been always will. I'm an LA native, he is my favorite player ever- mainly because I'm 22 and I don't know the Lakers w/out him. I started watching the Lakers in his rookie year.

I give Magic the benefit of the doubt, or what you claim to be a pro Magic bias, because I know better than to be an ignorant little s**t regarding historic players I never got to watch live. Right now Magic is the greatest Laker of all time, and like I said before, Kobe needs to pass Magic in titles for me to give him the nod over Magic. Magic embodied the ideal team player, and was always a great personality and professional- something Kobe has struggled with over his career (no longer an issue, as of last June).

I agree with you, if Kobe wins six rings and lands another MVP- he's no doubt the top Laker in my book (as well as a top 5 player ever); what I said in my previous post was that I will always understand the love for Magic, and will never have a problem with people saying he was their favorite Laker, or the greatest Laker. Keep in mind, Magic did for the NBA what Kobe could never do, simply because of the different eras they came of age in- he (and Bird) brought the excitement of the NBA to a world wide level. Magic set the table for future stars to become marketed, household names, SHOWTIME!

On the second half of what you said...

Zone defenses didn't become legal in the NBA until the start of the 2001-2002 season, the last year of the three-peat. By your own standards, the first two championships were "a lot easier" to obtain, because the Lakers never had to face zone defenses. I do have a mild, not to be taken too seriously conspiracy theory that the league began to permit zones, to combat the effectiveness of the triangle offense (which up to that point had been the offense in use for eight of the previous eleven champions). The only teams that were ever able to beat Phil Jackson coached, triangle offense oriented teams, were the '04 Pistons, and the '08 Celtics, team who had mastered the zone defense better than any other teams, since it's legal existence in the NBA. Even if Jordan faced a zone in one of his six finals, none of those 90's squads would have had the athletic mustard/versatility to execute the zone as well as Detroit, or Boston did in '04 and '08.

I think you should reconsider, and give the '04 Pistons their due as one of the most well balanced, defensively brilliant teams of the modern era. Billups, Rip, Prince, R-W (who wanted purple and gold revenge after 2000), and Big Ben were all in their primes, I don't know if Ive ever seen a more well balance starting five. I disagree with you on the potential impact a healthy Payton and Malone could have had. They simply watered down our offense, and took away shots from Shaq/Kobe and key role players who never found their groove. Paytons presence turned D-Fish into an after thought; the rest of the team was too old, or too young, and just not good enough. They won 4-1, healthy/old Malone and Payton don't change that (only Shaq and Kobes mentality could have). Other than The Dream (footage), I don't think I've ever seen anyone beat down athletic Shaq like Ben Wallace did. Go back and look at the box scores, only a great team could have made Bryant and Shaq so ineffective. For the record Kobe should have taken less shots that series and deferred more to Shaq- but hey, he was young (still only 25), in a contract year, whats done is done.

Other than Portland one year, and Sacramento in another year, who really challenged our three-peat? Nobody. The early 2000's was kind of a transitional couple years for the NBA. The stars from the 90's were diminishing, and the new up and coming stars, either weren't fully developed, or didn't have good enough teams to challenge what the Lakers had. It was Shaq's prime, and he was in the right place at the right time, with almost no one to stand in his way.

TheWatcher34
12-21-2009, 09:25 PM
i m not so sure if ARtest deserves to be on that list, he hasn't contributed anything YET except scoring 12 PPG !!!
..or maybe an infamous brawl could change that :D

Bruno
12-21-2009, 09:26 PM
I tend to agree, but I think everyone is on the same page during the 3-peat years by saying the western conference finals were the true finals. The Blazers and Kings were some of the best teams to never win it all. But youre completely right about the finals matchups, the Nets/Pacers/Sixers never stood a chance.

That '04 Pistons team was incredible though, I'm still in shock about how easily they completely dismantled the Lakers.

I'd agree Blazers and Kings were two of the greatest teams to not win it all. No other team stood a chance in 2001. Only two legitimate challenges over a three year long title run isn't much competition.

And yes, 2004 still hurts. I've learned to just accept that Detroit was better, give them their due and move on, it makes the whole thing a lot easier.

Bruno
12-21-2009, 09:36 PM
I agree... Kobe should never be considered ahead of Magic, Kareem,West, Worthy, Baylor and maybe even Shaq.

The list is BS though... Gasol 14th? For 2 years of play? Lamar Odom 17th... Both ahead of AC Green? Trevor Ariza ahead of Kurt Rambis?

What a joke...

Maybe even Shaq? As if Worthy and Baylor were better than Shaq as Lakers? No way.

The top tier of Laker players are these five guys in no particular order. Everybody else after these five are second tier, all time Laker greats

West-KAJ-Magic-Bryant-Shaq.

TheWatcher34
12-21-2009, 09:45 PM
No.27

Not bad at all.

:bow: ....... :cheer:

philab
12-21-2009, 09:47 PM
These "X team's best players" lists never make much sense. Is it based on the player's career as a whole or just with that particular team? For Kobe and Magic, the two are synonymous, but for Shaq and Kareem, the two aren't. Assuming it's the career as a whole:

Kareem
Magic
Shaq/Kobe

With the Lakers only:

Magic
Kobe
Kareem
Shaq

Bruno
12-21-2009, 09:49 PM
These "X team's best players" lists never make much sense. Is it based on the player's career as a whole or just with that particular team? For Kobe and Magic, the two are synonymous, but for Shaq and Kareem, the two aren't. Assuming it's the career as a whole:

Kareem
Magic
Shaq/Kobe

With the Lakers only:

Magic
Kobe
Kareem
Shaq

This list takes into account only what these players did as Lakers. Which explains Chamberlins ranking.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2009, 09:55 PM
Bruno87 you sound really smart so my comment is meant to offend you or insult your intelligence..

you just admitted to having an extreme bias towards magic, which makes your opinion invalid.. when assessing the title of best laker, the judging should be based on totally factual information.. I myself believe magic is better then kobe right now.. but if kobe gets to 6 championships, wins 1 more mvp, I'm then giving it to kobe.. infact, if kobe does that and maintains his great scoring, we'll be talking about 1 michael jorden 1a kobe bean bryant..

i disagree about the part of tougher competition.. magic faced all man on man defense which is a lot easier then the zone defense kobe now plays against.. magic era was more physical but "better" would be incorrect.. the 08 celtics were great.. they did get every call in boston, which was painfully obvious, but they were good.. I always say this.. the 04 pistons were not that good!! keep in mind karl malone didn't play and gary payton was slowed by injury.. if we were healthy when the finals came, we would have beat them that year.. the 04 players weren't a joke.. it was a forgone conclusion that they'd be in the finals...


the competition was better back then. The expansion teams in the 1989 season depleted the per team talent, and the no hand check rule instituted made it a perimeter players game. Year in, and year out, the Celtics, Rockets, the Sixers, and numerous other teams were true contenders. Today, there isn't the depth on the top teams to sustain injury, therefore, it has come down to whomever is healthiest wins it.
Magic has the numbers, and rings to make claim at this point. If Kobe wins a couple more rings, and another MVP, then many on this site, including Bruno, and myself will move Kobe over Magic. The argument was, in many Laker fans minds, especially the ones older than 25 (of which this board lacks), Magic will forever be the ultimate Laker.
and the fact that you even brought up MJ with Kobe is stupid. Whole other NON ARGUMENT

Bruno
12-21-2009, 09:58 PM
the competition was better back then. The expansion teams in the 1989 season depleted the per team talent, and the no hand check rule instituted made it a perimeter players game. Year in, and year out, the Celtics, Rockets, the Sixers, and numerous other teams were true contenders. Today, there isn't the depth on the top teams to sustain injury, therefore, it has come down to whomever is healthiest wins it.
Magic has the numbers, and rings to make claim at this point. If Kobe wins a couple more rings, and another MVP, then many on this site, including Bruno, and myself will move Kobe over Magic. The argument was, in many Laker fans minds, especially the ones older than 25 (of which this board lacks), Magic will forever be the ultimate Laker.
and the fact that you even brought up MJ with Kobe is stupid. Whole other NON ARGUMENT

Never thought about it like that. Kinda sucks, really.

philab
12-21-2009, 10:05 PM
This list takes into account only what these players did as Lakers. Which explains Chamberlins ranking.

Yeah, I forgot Chamberlain too. Geez. Anyway, if that's the case, then my second list would be the relevant one. West might slide in there somewhere too, but I don't feel like thinking about it. I'm off my game tonight.

dodgerdave
12-21-2009, 10:06 PM
Good call on Sedale Threatt for #42. I think Anthony Peeler should also be in the 40-50 range.

Chronz
12-22-2009, 02:12 PM
Whoever made this list must be young. Shaq before Wilt? Come on now lmao, look at the stats......

You should follow your own advice and look at the stats, that is of course if your not too young to know how to do that.


I wonder if another Laker fan can verify this, since we are on the discussion:

Didn't Magic get Norm Nixon traded because he couldn't stand sharing the ball with him in the backcourt?
Yep, he was also envious that smooth could pick up on hos better than him


Shaq on the Lakers > Wilt on the Lakers. When comparing careers I think there's no question who was better, but Wilt was on the Lakers during the twilight of his career.

Personally I'd rank West over Shaq for the simple fact that West was a Laker for life. I get the feeling that if Shaq had lost as many finals as West did he would have jumped ship and moved on.

Glad to see Rick Fox on the list too. He was arguably my favorite player from the 3-peat years,

Bingo


And wheres that guy who stated that Lebron is better shooter than kobe?

Kobe at rim-61% <10 feet-56% 10-15 feet-50% 16-23 feet-44%
Lebron at rim 71% <10 feet-45% 10-15 feet 33% 16-23 feet 41%

Why are you posting this here?

Chronz
12-22-2009, 02:25 PM
??
West was a better Laker, Shaq was the better player.


The circumstances of those titles were that Shaq was having some of the most dominant seasons and playoff runs in the history of the NBA, and being so unstoppable that the league literally changed the rules of the game (brought back zone defense) just to try and give other teams a fair fight against him.
Yep


The "circumstances of titles" argument is fine in a lot of cases, such as Isiah vs Stockton, but not in the case of Shaq's titles. He was clearly the best player in the game during those years.
Its not so much of it not applying to Shaq, he was the best player in the league even before he was winning titles, it has more to do with how he suggested West failed miserably. West didnt fail miserably, he failed spectacularly, throughout his career hes played much better in the losses than Shaq did. How you lose matters just as much as how you win. So its not as easy as just looking at titles 3 is greater than 1, ok lets move on to the next debate. Nor is it the only big determining factor, as I mentioned in the first post.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-22-2009, 02:39 PM
Why are you posting this here?

Sorry, wrong thread!

_Supreme_
12-22-2009, 02:42 PM
This thread belongs in the Lakers forum, not the main NBA forum.

All the other team-specific threads get moved too.