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View Full Version : After Last Year's Playoffs, How Could the Bulls not Break the Bank on Gordon?



Tony_Starks
12-12-2009, 08:16 PM
I mean the show he put on in the playoffs was beyond ridiculous. Big shot after big shot. Going toe to toe with Ray Allen in the clutch. It was amazing to watch.

How could they let this dude get away? Their ace in the whole was bringing him in as instant offense off the bench. Now they're struggling to put up points?

Was this not a huge srew up? I would've been willing to give up Deng to make room for this guy.

Cubs Win
12-12-2009, 08:30 PM
The Bulls had already paid Deng (6 yrs 71 mil) and had tried to sign Gordon before but he wouldn't accept for what the Front Office thought was fair. And we offered around 50 million and 5 years if I remember correctly. Was Ben Gordon a great player for us? Of course. But his defense was pretty bad and he would take a lot of bad shots and demand the ball too much.

ManRam
12-12-2009, 08:32 PM
I thought they'd be better without him, I was wrong...at least so far. I do think there is still hope. Pretty much everyone is playing sub par basketball this season besides Noah. Salmons and Rose will pick it up. Hinrich will find his stroke. I think it's physically impossible for anyone to play worse than he is. Once the scorers start scoring, the rest of the offense will come. I thought relying on Hinrich, Salmons and Rose instead of Ben would be better. I thought they all could be more efficient than BG. I'm clearly wrong.

I do think locking up Deng before Ben was the right move...without a doubt.

Shammyguy3
12-12-2009, 08:36 PM
First off, another one of these "why would Chicago let BG7 leave?!" threads? Really?...ok.

Alright, first off let me say that I am from Chicago, and am a Bulls fan, and that i am not a fan of Ben Gordon.

First the stats:

In the playoffs last year with Chicago, in which the Bulls took the Celtics to 7 games:

He shot 38.8% from the field, 37% from 3
that's not exactly lighting it up

Why the hell would the Bulls want to give BG7 60M/5Y??? He is not the guy that will win you a championship, he is a 5'11" SG that can't guard anybody, takes the most ridiculous shots, stops the flow of the offense, dribbles off his foot, and is best when coming off the bench.

You should not pay a 6th man $12M a year.

Gators123
12-12-2009, 08:37 PM
You can say his shot selection was bad, But remember, He shot about 46% last year.

Chicagofaithful
12-12-2009, 08:45 PM
Its simple... look at what he's done for the pistons

Gators123
12-12-2009, 08:47 PM
Its simple... look at what he's done for the pistons

What do you mean? Pistons are better then the Bulls

bigsams50
12-12-2009, 08:47 PM
Its simple... look at what he's done for the pistons

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ben_gordon/index.html Thts not bad

Gators123
12-12-2009, 08:49 PM
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ben_gordon/index.html Thts not bad

His stats are down a little, Look at his minutes in his last 3 games. Hes been playing with a sprained ankle.

CubsFan69
12-12-2009, 08:50 PM
First off, another one of these "why would Chicago let BG7 leave?!" threads? Really?...ok.

Alright, first off let me say that I am from Chicago, and am a Bulls fan, and that i am not a fan of Ben Gordon.

First the stats:

In the playoffs last year with Chicago, in which the Bulls took the Celtics to 7 games:

He shot 38.8% from the field, 37% from 3
that's not exactly lighting it up

Why the hell would the Bulls want to give BG7 60M/5Y??? He is not the guy that will win you a championship, he is a 5'11" SG that can't guard anybody, takes the most ridiculous shots, stops the flow of the offense, dribbles off his foot, and is best when coming off the bench.

You should not pay a 6th man $12M a year.


Well said... Couldn't have said it better.

Tony_Starks
12-12-2009, 08:51 PM
First off, another one of these "why would Chicago let BG7 leave?!" threads? Really?...ok.

Alright, first off let me say that I am from Chicago, and am a Bulls fan, and that i am not a fan of Ben Gordon.

First the stats:

In the playoffs last year with Chicago, in which the Bulls took the Celtics to 7 games:

He shot 38.8% from the field, 37% from 3
that's not exactly lighting it up

Why the hell would the Bulls want to give BG7 60M/5Y??? He is not the guy that will win you a championship, he is a 5'11" SG that can't guard anybody, takes the most ridiculous shots, stops the flow of the offense, dribbles off his foot, and is best when coming off the bench.

You should not pay a 6th man $12M a year.

Do those stats include the clutch 3's he hit all thoughout the series to help take it to 7 games? I mean as a Bulls fan I can't see how you couldn't look at that performance as anything but spectacular but hey..... thats just me.

And Lamar Odom is getting about that much to come off the bench fyi.

NightMayer1558
12-12-2009, 08:56 PM
Ben Gordon was the star of the Celtics series? Take a look at these important statistics:

Game 1 at Boston: WIN 105-103
Derrick Rose: 36pts
Ben Gordon: 20pts

Game 2 at Boston: LOSS 115-118
Ben Gordon: 42pts
Derrick Rose: 10pts

Game 3 at Chicago: LOSS 86-107
Ben Gordon: 15pts
Derrick Rose: 9pts

Game 4 at Chicago: WIN 121-118
Derrick Rose: 23pts
Ben Gordon: 22pts

Game 5 at Boston: LOSS 104-106
Ben Gordon: 26pts
Derrick Rose: 14pts

Game 6 at Chicago: WIN 128-127
John Salmons: 35pts
Derrick Rose: 28pts
Ben Gordon: 12pts

Game 7 at Boston: LOSS 99-109
Ben Gordon: 33pts
Derrick Rose: 18pts

In case you didn't notice the trend here, we lived and died (and continue to do so) by the play of Derrick Rose. Throughout the series, every time Gordon led us in scoring we lost and every time Rose outscored him we won.

And also, we pretty much offered him the same contract Detroit did and he turned us down. So "let" him go? Yeah. It's better for Rose's development anyway without BG hogging the ball, as you clearly saw the results of that in the Boston series.

Yes, we do miss his instant offense and clutch-ness but it was a sacrifice that needed to be made. (And pretty much was, considering BG signed with the Pistons the day of)

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Basically it comes down to whether or not the Bulls wanted to pay Ben Gordon that much to come off the bench, or save the money to go after a post presence/All-Star in the FA class of 2010. In my opinion, they made the right move because the Bulls were not going to win a championship if they committed all that money to Gordon. They now have some flexibility with what they want to do in the future and build around Derrick Rose.

Gators123
12-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Please, without Gordon do you think the bulls would have took it to 7 games? Nope

Tony_Starks
12-12-2009, 09:01 PM
Ben Gordon was the star of the Celtics series? Take a look at these important statistics:

Game 1 at Boston: WIN 105-103
Derrick Rose: 36pts
Ben Gordon: 20pts

Game 2 at Boston: LOSS 115-118
Ben Gordon: 42pts
Derrick Rose: 10pts

Game 3 at Chicago: LOSS 86-107
Ben Gordon: 15pts
Derrick Rose: 9pts

Game 4 at Chicago: WIN 121-118
Derrick Rose: 23pts
Ben Gordon: 22pts

Game 5 at Boston: LOSS 104-106
Ben Gordon: 26pts
Derrick Rose: 14pts

Game 6 at Chicago: WIN 128-127
John Salmons: 35pts
Derrick Rose: 28pts
Ben Gordon: 12pts

Game 7 at Boston: LOSS 99-109
Ben Gordon: 33pts
Derrick Rose: 18pts

In case you didn't notice the trend here, we lived and died (and continue to do so) by the play of Derrick Rose. Throughout the series, every time Gordon led us in scoring we lost and every time Rose outscored him we won.

And also, we pretty much offered him the same contract Detroit did and he turned us down. So "let" him go? Yeah. It's better for Rose's development anyway without BG hogging the ball, as you clearly saw the results of that in the Boston series.



In case you missed my other post I asked someone do those stats include the clutch shots he made to win you guys games and take some of those wins to OT. You can throw stats out there all day long but the dude was ice cold when you needed him.

NightMayer1558
12-12-2009, 09:02 PM
Please, without Gordon do you think the bulls would have took it to 7 games? Nope

I'm not saying we would've, but I'm also saying that while he did win us some games, he also COST us some games as well (looking at the Boston series).

His lack of defense in that series should also be noted.

Why do you think Ray Allen torched us night after night with the exception of Game 1. Other 3 point specialists like J.R. Smith are no different.

bigsams50
12-12-2009, 09:03 PM
Ben Gordon was the star of the Celtics series? Take a look at these important statistics:

Game 1 at Boston: WIN 105-103
Derrick Rose: 36pts
Ben Gordon: 20pts

Game 2 at Boston: LOSS 115-118
Ben Gordon: 42pts
Derrick Rose: 10pts

Game 3 at Chicago: LOSS 86-107
Ben Gordon: 15pts
Derrick Rose: 9pts

Game 4 at Chicago: WIN 121-118
Derrick Rose: 23pts
Ben Gordon: 22pts

Game 5 at Boston: LOSS 104-106
Ben Gordon: 26pts
Derrick Rose: 14pts

Game 6 at Chicago: WIN 128-127
John Salmons: 35pts
Derrick Rose: 28pts
Ben Gordon: 12pts

Game 7 at Boston: LOSS 99-109
Ben Gordon: 33pts
Derrick Rose: 18pts

In case you didn't notice the trend here, we lived and died (and continue to do so) by the play of Derrick Rose. Throughout the series, every time Gordon led us in scoring we lost and every time Rose outscored him we won.

And also, we pretty much offered him the same contract Detroit did and he turned us down. So "let" him go? Yeah. It's better for Rose's development anyway without BG hogging the ball, as you clearly saw the results of that in the Boston series.

Yes, we do miss his instant offense and clutch-ness but it was a sacrifice that needed to be made. (And pretty much was, considering BG signed with the Pistons the day of)

You forgot to include Rose's Turnovers in your comparison..because they were many

NightMayer1558
12-12-2009, 09:04 PM
In case you missed my other post I asked someone do those stats include the clutch shots he made to win you guys games and take some of those wins to OT. You can throw stats out there all day long but the dude was ice cold when you needed him.

Read the end of my earlier post and my later post, but in the end, it (hopefully) should be for the better.

zambo4president
12-12-2009, 09:04 PM
Ben Gordon is a team killer that's why. I didn't want him back and Im glad he went to Detroit.

Gators123
12-12-2009, 09:07 PM
You forgot to include Rose's Turnovers in your comparison..because they were many

Averaged 5 TO's per game in the Playoffs :speechless:

ChiSox219
12-12-2009, 09:07 PM
Simple

In the Celtics series Gordon averaged:

29ppg in the 4 losses
18ppg in the 3 wins

33 year old Ray Allen lit up Gordon for 26.7 ppg after Game 1.

Why would you pay someone like that 8 figures for 5 years?

Bulls are struggling but when they were healthy they took down the Spurs (who were healthy at the time) and beat the Cavs in Cleveland. We've played 12 road games against 9 home games and the latest stretch our depth has been depleted, leading to James Johnson and Jannero Pargo getting more minutes than ever intended.

With Gordon we are stuck in NBA hell, the 5-8 seed. Without him, we may still be a fringe playoff team but at least we have the cap space to add a real asset after the season and unlike NY we still have our first round pick, in case we don't recover this year.

bigsams50
12-12-2009, 09:08 PM
Averaged 5 TO's per game in the Playoffs :speechless:

Exactly. When people bring up his "great" playoff performance, they never include the fact that he was a turnover machine

ChiSox219
12-12-2009, 09:09 PM
In case you missed my other post I asked someone do those stats include the clutch shots he made to win you guys games and take some of those wins to OT. You can throw stats out there all day long but the dude was ice cold when you needed him.

You need stats because you are only remembering his makes. He had several chances to win games in that series and missed his shots leading to OT.

But you make a good point, as traditional stats don't show that Gordon was one of the worst defenders in the league last year, on par with Steve Nash.

Tony_Starks
12-12-2009, 09:17 PM
I notice alot of you guys are putting Ray Allens performance almost solely on Ben. If I remember correctly they were moving Ray off screens like crazy and the Bulls pick and roll, pick and pop defense being pretty bad. One minute they were switching, one minute they were under the screens, it was total confusion. I put that more on the coach then the player.

Also Ben came off the bench so he wasn't Rays primary defender.

Shammyguy3
12-12-2009, 09:23 PM
Do those stats include the clutch 3's he hit all thoughout the series to help take it to 7 games? I mean as a Bulls fan I can't see how you couldn't look at that performance as anything but spectacular but hey..... thats just me.

And Lamar Odom is getting about that much to come off the bench fyi.

Maybe if he wasn't sucking it up half the time then we wouldn't have needed to make a last second shot?????

O and the lakers are championship contenders, so they can get away with paying someone that much for coming off the bench. But you are neglecting the fact that Odom got payed that money to start, and when the Lakers traded for Gasol he went to the bench fyi

SirCalvin81
12-12-2009, 10:01 PM
Maybe if he wasn't sucking it up half the time then we wouldn't have needed to make a last second shot?????

O and the lakers are championship contenders, so they can get away with paying someone that much for coming off the bench. But you are neglecting the fact that Odom got payed that money to start, and when the Lakers traded for Gasol he went to the bench fyi

ur so ignorant, odom just signed this offseason, wat are u talking about? and im sure ben gordan was the reason y u lost and won everygame. wat kinda stupid **** is that. hes horrible becuz hes not wearing a bulls jersey but if he was still a bull u would b defending him

Shammyguy3
12-12-2009, 10:28 PM
ur so ignorant, odom just signed this offseason, wat are u talking about? and im sure ben gordan was the reason y u lost and won everygame. wat kinda stupid **** is that. hes horrible becuz hes not wearing a bulls jersey but if he was still a bull u would b defending him

K so i was wrong about the Odom signing....who cares? And no i wouldn't be defending Gordon if he was still with the bulls. Look at all of my previous posts about him. Not every loss was because of him, and not every win either. You are the ignorant one my friend. The bulls are missing his ability to spread the floor, but that's the only thing they miss about him.


Edit: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4367213


Odom's salary is $9M annually, not 12 like Ben Gordons. So that helps make my point because the bulls are paying Hinrich to be a combo-guard off the bench the same money that odom is making (in which he is a combo-forward for them)

Tony_Starks
12-12-2009, 10:28 PM
Hey hey ease off the world champion Laker fans buddy!

Actually I think Knick fans are the most delusional on here. You hear stuff like "Eddy Curry could be a possible allstar on another team!" Or the worst "Lebron has to come to NY so we can make him a big star! I mean now he's big, but here he would be REALLY big!"

ChiSox219
12-12-2009, 10:28 PM
I notice alot of you guys are putting Ray Allens performance almost solely on Ben. If I remember correctly they were moving Ray off screens like crazy and the Bulls pick and roll, pick and pop defense being pretty bad. One minute they were switching, one minute they were under the screens, it was total confusion. I put that more on the coach then the player.

Also Ben came off the bench so he wasn't Rays primary defender.

Gordon started all 7 games in the playoffs and Hinrich split time guarding Pierce and Allen.


ur so ignorant, odom just signed this offseason, wat are u talking about? and im sure ben gordan was the reason y u lost and won everygame. wat kinda stupid **** is that. hes horrible becuz hes not wearing a bulls jersey but if he was still a bull u would b defending him

Odom is getting paid $7.5 million and his deal is only 3 years
Gordon is getting $10 million and his contract is for 5 years

Odom is a better player and one of the best defenders in the game. He's capable of playing the 3 or 4 and can defend just about any position on the floor. Gordon has zero versatility, he's a SG with PG size, he can't pass and can't defend. He's a prototypical 6th man. He can come in for 30 mpg give your team a good spark while matched up against the opposing teams second unit. He will hit the big shot when needed which along with his three point shooting, is his greatest asset.

Love the guy, wish he was still in a Bulls uniform, but there's no way he's worth the money he got. Deng is a much better value at 5yrs/$61.7m than BG at 5yrs/$58 million and yet people call Deng overpaid, so what does that make BG?

JordansBulls
12-12-2009, 10:29 PM
Because he doesnt make us better. We still are a 1st round exit team with or without him.

KH12
12-12-2009, 10:38 PM
I still wouldn't re-sign him. We're better off in the long run without him.

camador22
12-12-2009, 10:51 PM
Because he doesnt make us better. We still are a 1st round exit team with or without him.

You're a playoff team with him and one of the worst teams in the league without him

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 10:54 PM
Its simple... look at what he's done for the pistons

Help them win games with the most banged up roster in the league? Now that he's playing with talent he doesn't have to singlehandly win games by himself like he did for the bulls. How's Salmons working out?

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 10:55 PM
You're a playoff team with him and one of the worst teams in the league without him

true that.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:00 PM
Help them win games with the most banged up roster in the league? Now that he's playing with talent he doesn't have to singlehandly win games by himself like he did for the bulls. How's Salmons working out?
Clearly you didn't read previous posts. In the playoff series last year, when Gordon was the leadig scorer the Bulls were 0-4. When Rose was the leaing scorer, the Bulls went 3-0. And how did the Bulls not have talent last year?

JordansBulls
12-12-2009, 11:01 PM
You're a playoff team with him and one of the worst teams in the league without him

We were out of the playoffs last year until we made the trade to get Salmons and Miller.

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:06 PM
Clearly you didn't read previous posts. In the playoff series last year, when Gordon was the leadig scorer the Bulls were 0-4. When Rose was the leaing scorer, the Bulls went 3-0. And how did the Bulls not have talent last year?

Obviously you don't understand basketball and think statistics provide every detail of how a player affects a team. Gordon's presence alone allowed other players more space to work with, hence why Rose was more effective last season than this.

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:08 PM
Also, it's not Gordon's fault he couldn't get any more help in last years playoff series to win those games.

Gators123
12-12-2009, 11:10 PM
Obviously you don't understand basketball and think statistics provide every detail of how a player affects a team. Gordon's presence alone allowed other players more space to work with, hence why Rose was more effective last season than this.


Also, it's not Gordon's fault he couldn't get any more help in last years playoff series to win those games.

:nod:

JasonJohnHorn
12-12-2009, 11:14 PM
Why did Chi-town let him go? They didn't, he left. They offered as much as the Piston did last year and he turned them down and let it be known he was not interested in staying with the Bulls. He did the mature thing and played hard for the Bulls while he was under contract, gave an honest effort every night without complaining, and waited patiently for his chance to choose where to play.

As for his game, there is no denying the talent that is there. But as good a scorer as he is, he is a tweener, a shooting guard in a point guards body and he doesn't have the ball handling or passing skills to play point, and he doesn't have the size to defend shooting guards. He's a lot like a really good Eddie House. He would be a great fit in Boston because when Rondo is not on the court Peirce plays point-forward and brings the ball up and sets up plays, so the short shooting guard can guard the opposing team's point guards and the ball handling duties are covered.

So why did the Bulls "let him go"? They made him a fair offer, he rejected it, they tried to move him that season and got no takers, and then he flew the coup. It happens, and it wasn't smart to offer him any more than what they already had so the Bulls did the right thing. Gordon is a great sixth man and would be great fit on a team like Boston or even L.A., but he wanted a lot of cash and the Pistons needed a new scorer to help them out while they begin their rebuilding process.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:14 PM
Also, it's not Gordon's fault he couldn't get any more help in last years playoff series to win those games.
Yeah, Derrick Rose wasn't helping at all (sarcasm)... 20 ppg, 6 apg, 6 rpg in the series

Gators123
12-12-2009, 11:18 PM
Why did Chi-town let him go? They didn't, he left. They offered as much as the Piston did last year and he turned them down and let it be known he was not interested in staying with the Bulls. He did the mature thing and played hard for the Bulls while he was under contract, gave an honest effort every night without complaining, and waited patiently for his chance to choose where to play.

As for his game, there is no denying the talent that is there. But as good a scorer as he is, he is a tweener, a shooting guard in a point guards body and he doesn't have the ball handling or passing skills to play point, and he doesn't have the size to defend shooting guards. He's a lot like a really good Eddie House. He would be a great fit in Boston because when Rondo is not on the court Peirce plays point-forward and brings the ball up and sets up plays, so the short shooting guard can guard the opposing team's point guards and the ball handling duties are covered.

So why did the Bulls "let him go"? They made him a fair offer, he rejected it, they tried to move him that season and got no takers, and then he flew the coup. It happens, and it wasn't smart to offer him any more than what they already had so the Bulls did the right thing. Gordon is a great sixth man and would be great fit on a team like Boston or even L.A., but he wanted a lot of cash and the Pistons needed a new scorer to help them out while they begin their rebuilding process.


Fair Enough, But the Eddie House comparison? C'mon

Tony_Starks
12-12-2009, 11:18 PM
By the way the Bulls are getting blown out by the Celtics as we speak....so I guess.... just maybe......

Slimsim
12-12-2009, 11:19 PM
I thought Basketball was a team sport. Blaming Loses on BG for scoring more than Derrick Rose is pretty lame. But Can't ignore the fact that it would help the Bulls in the long run.

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:19 PM
Yeah, Derrick Rose wasn't helping at all (sarcasm)... 20 ppg, 6 apg, 6 rpg in the series

What's that? Sorry I was distracted by watching the Pistons win their 5th straight game tonight. Anyways, Rose clearly didn't show up in that series when it mattered, besides blocking a guy that shoots bricks anyways. I heard him complain there's not enough room to work with anymore aswell, I wonder why?

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:21 PM
Fair Enough, But the Eddie House comparison? C'mon
It's a good comparison, all either one does is shoot.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:23 PM
What's that? Sorry I was distracted by watching the Pistons win their 5th straight game tonight. Anyways, Rose clearly didn't show up in that series when it mattered, besides blocking a guy that shoots bricks anyways. I heard him complain there's not enough room to work with anymore aswell, I wonder why?
Who was the last team you lost to? 4 of those games were washington, philly, golden state, and milwaukee who have a combined record of 29-59....congrats

xxxplicit69
12-12-2009, 11:27 PM
in all honesty the only way the move of letting ben gordon go is a valid one is if we pick up dwade next year. come on, you can't be serious about relying on kirk hinrich, salmons, etc. thats just a front. also, i was never to big on del negro, he's not bad but i feel like the bears, the bulls are preparing for next year. they didn't have and still don't have the talent to be a real threat compared to teams like ATL, ORL, BOS, CLE. those teams would crush Chi-town right now, with or w/o gordon.

to answer the question, we are definately not a better team as of right now w/o gordon, no way just look at how the season has been going. we dont have a real threat at the perimeter or the post. sir charles even said outside of noah and derrick rose kind of, the rest of the team has given up on del negro. the talent isnt there either.

next year though, i am expecting a homecoming from wade and we could use a really good PF too, either that or a real legit SF cuz rose, wade, deng are the best 3pt shooters. but deng is putting out so roll players could hit 3s for us and we could get that 20 & 10 guy to play along side noah. with those moves, then it makes since for gordon to be gone cuz with rose and wade gordon would have no PT.

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:29 PM
Who was the last team you lost to?

When 3 of your best players are out injured and 2 are playing hurt, loosing to a garbage team happens.

Gators123
12-12-2009, 11:30 PM
Who was the last team you lost to? 4 of those games were washington, philly, golden state, and milwaukee who have a combined record of 29-59....congrats

Pistons haven't been blown out 20 times though :rolleyes:

Pistons won those games without Hamilton and Prince and Gordon played injured in all of them (check his minutes) and Will Bynum also played with a sprained ankle

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:31 PM
When 3 of your best players are out injured and 2 are playing hurt, loosing to a garbage team happens.
Haha you act like Detroit are contenders or something

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:32 PM
Who was the last team you lost to? 4 of those games were washington, philly, golden state, and milwaukee who have a combined record of 29-59....congrats

Looks like you forgot Denver. All of those wins were without BG, Rip, Tay, 2 without Bynum and all with an injured CV. That's funny because those teams you listed, including the Nets, beat the Bulls lol.

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:33 PM
Haha you act like Detroit are contenders or something

nah, just annoying when fans of a trash team try critisizing players of a team that actually wins.

xxxplicit69
12-12-2009, 11:34 PM
my appologies for being redundant in 3 paragraphs, i know ppl get pretty critical on here. but i won't pretend like everything is ok with bulls this year. i live in cali but my heart is always with my chicago teams. with that said, i knew we werent gonna be anything special so i've only been keeping up with the lakers as far as watching games, along with lebron and wade gms. but i do expect big things for chi-town next year, so again, i believe the move to not sign ben gordon was to make room for better options at that position, a more consistent scorer, bigger player, better defender, passer, etc... alah wade.

ChiSox219
12-12-2009, 11:36 PM
I don't understand why Pistons fans are talking so much, you're a low seed playoff team that will be one and done with no cap space, that's the worst position to be in, it's called NBA hell.

The Bulls with Gordon are at best a 5th seed and maybe get lucky to advance where they would be promptly destroyed. They would go into the off season without a lottery pick and no cap space and repeat the cycle in 2011.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:36 PM
Looks like you forgot Denver. All of those wins were without BG, Rip, Tay, 2 without Bynum and all with an injured CV. That's funny because those teams you listed, including the Nets, beat the Bulls lol.
Hmm, you're way off. We beat Philly in our only meeting, split with the Bucks, haven't even played the Wizards, and just beat Golden State in our only meeting. Way to get your facts straight.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:38 PM
I don't understand why Pistons fans are talking so much, you're a low seed playoff team that will be one and done with no cap space, that's the worst position to be in, it's called NBA hell.

The Bulls with Gordon are at best a 5th seed and maybe get lucky to advance where they would be promptly destroyed. They would go into the off season without a lottery pick and no cap space and repeat the cycle in 2011.
This is precisely correct.

Gators123
12-12-2009, 11:39 PM
Its funny bulls fans keep talking about next year, Wade or LeBron wont be going to Chicago. Sorry

JasonJohnHorn
12-12-2009, 11:40 PM
Fair Enough, But the Eddie House comparison? C'mon

I did say a "really good" Eddie House. lol. Obviously House is not at the level of Gordon, but they have similar games in that they would be great shooting guards if they weren't so short. And if Boston had Gordon filling in the role of Eddie House, they'd be amazing!

aZekuiS
12-12-2009, 11:41 PM
I don't understand why Pistons fans are talking so much, you're a low seed playoff team that will be one and done with no cap space, that's the worst position to be in, it's called NBA hell.

The Bulls with Gordon are at best a 5th seed and maybe get lucky to advance where they would be promptly destroyed. They would go into the off season without a lottery pick and no cap space and repeat the cycle in 2011.

Pistons fans are used to their team being contenders for almost a decade, we don't care if we make the playoffs or not, the Bulls making the playoffs is a huge deal. Yes and the Bulls are in great position, because their going to land Dwade, Lebron, & Bosh. Right? Or just Joe Johnson and you'll continue to be mediocre for another decade. You're acting like our managment doesn't know how to put a team together. I hope Salmons opts-in for the last year of his contract next season. That would be Hilarious.

JWO35
12-12-2009, 11:42 PM
The Bulls really didn't let Gordon walk...Ben didn't want anything to do with the Bulls, he wanted out. They offered him the same contract he signed with Detroit Years ago and he declined it.

The Pistons are doing great with the little they have (due to injuries)
And the Bulls are having trouble just trying to score 100ppg

JasonJohnHorn
12-12-2009, 11:43 PM
Haha you act like Detroit are contenders or something

They certainly aren't contenders, but you gotta show some respect for their record considering their team isn't that great, they've lost key vets to free agency, and key starters to injury while trying to get four knew guys in the rotation. You smoke what I'm rollin'?

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:43 PM
You forget about Amare, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Boozer, etc.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:45 PM
They certainly aren't contenders, but you gotta show some respect for their record considering their team isn't that great, they've lost key vets to free agency, and key starters to injury while trying to get four knew guys in the rotation. You smoke what I'm rollin'?
Haha they just act like they are going somewhere when they are stuck right where they are and have no flexibility

Gators123
12-12-2009, 11:47 PM
Haha they just act like they are going somewhere when they are stuck right where they are and have no flexibility

I think the only thing we said is that the Pistons are better then the Bulls.

ChiSox219
12-12-2009, 11:50 PM
Its funny bulls fans keep talking about next year, Wade or LeBron wont be going to Chicago. Sorry

I'd be happy with Bosh/Amare/Boozer and someone like Anthony Morrow.

The point is, we have room to work and improve the team, the Pistons can add a mid 1st round talent and will have maybe $3 million in cap space. Unless they move Rip, which I don't see who would take him unless it's in exchange for another bad contract.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:51 PM
They have a better record, but I think the Bulls are in a better position

JWO35
12-12-2009, 11:51 PM
Bull Fans are delusional....They think they will Get Bosh, Wade, LeBron, Amare, and Joe Johnson in 2010.

And now that they realize that the Bulls Suck. They automatically think they will get John Wall! Face it You're whole future depends on the 2010 free agency. And why would any of the people I just named above go to Chicago, when their current team is better than the Bulls?

ChiSox219
12-12-2009, 11:54 PM
Pistons fans are used to their team being contenders for almost a decade, we don't care if we make the playoffs or not, the Bulls making the playoffs is a huge deal. Yes and the Bulls are in great position, because they're going to land Dwade, Lebron, & Bosh. Right? Or just Joe Johnson and you'll continue to be mediocre for another decade. You're acting like our managment doesn't know how to put a team together. I hope Salmons opts-in for the last year of his contract next season. That would be Hilarious.

Bulls fans have the six titles, if anything we could less about making the playoffs, we just want to build a title contender, not settle for good players with weaknesses like Charlie V and BG.

Salmons opting out would be great and is expected, from a Piston's fan's perspective it would be hilarious if Salmons DIDN'T opt out.

Cubsfan365
12-12-2009, 11:55 PM
Bull Fans are delusional....They think they will Get Bosh, Wade, LeBron, Amare, and Joe Johnson in 2010.

And now that they realize that the Bulls Suck. They automatically think they will get John Wall! Face it You're whole future depends on the 2010 free agency. And why would any of the people I just named above go to Chicago, when their current team is better than the Bulls?
The Bulls have a solid young core to build around in Rose, Deng, and Noah that only needs a couple pieces.

003
12-13-2009, 12:03 AM
The Bulls/Celtics series was fun to watch. But they still didn't win the series with Ben Gordon and Garnett wasn't even playing due to injury. Watching this game tonight with Garnett playing, Ben Gordon wouldn't have kept that series close.

Ben Gordon will not be the "ace in the hole" for a championship team ever. He's like Michael Adams minus the passing ability. An above average scorer who should come off the bench due to his lack of defense, but he refuses to do that.

So I think the Bulls made the right decision in letting him walk. They will have that $$ to spend in the offseason and possibly could land a game changer like Bosh, Amare, Wade, etc.... Whoever. Any one of those names would be a huge upgrade over Gordon.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 12:07 AM
Bulls fans have the six titles, if anything we could less about making the playoffs, we just want to build a title contender, not settle for good players with weaknesses like Charlie V and BG.

Salmons opting out would be great and is expected, from a Piston's fan's perspective it would be hilarious if Salmons DIDN'T opt out.

The Bulls are a one player wonder. New era, new management, same mediocrity. The Bulls have to rely on signing a superstar, the Pistons proved they can win by building a team. Why would Salmons opt out? He's garbage and wont get nearly the money that's he's guaranteed if he's stays.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:08 AM
one player wonder?

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 12:09 AM
I'd be happy with Bosh/Amare/Boozer and someone like Anthony Morrow.

The point is, we have room to work and improve the team, the Pistons can add a mid 1st round talent and will have maybe $3 million in cap space. Unless they move Rip, which I don't see who would take him unless it's in exchange for another bad contract.

Um, Tayshaun Prince and/or Rip will be traded by next season. thx.

Oh yeah I almost forgot. Big Ben told me he'll be available for another 60M contract next season.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 12:09 AM
one player wonder?

Can you figure out who it is?

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:11 AM
Can you figure out who it is?
You are ridiculous if you are referring to Jordan as a one player wonder

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 12:12 AM
The Bulls are a one player wonder. New era, new management, same mediocrity. The Bulls have to rely on signing a superstar, the Pistons proved they can win by building a team. Why would Salmons opt out? He's garbage and wont get nearly the money that's he's guaranteed if he's stays.

My bad, I guess i misread your original post. Salmons is only guaranteed 5.8 million, he should be able to find a 3 year deal that pays close to that annually. If he doesn't opt out, we still have $14-15 million in cap space which is plenty to work with.

Lakersfan2483
12-13-2009, 12:15 AM
The Bulls clearly miss Gordon's ability to close games and hit clutch shots. They should have resigned him.

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 12:17 AM
Um, Tayshaun Prince and/or Rip will be traded by next season. thx.

Oh yeah I almost forgot. Big Ben told me he'll be available for another 60M contract next season.

Tayshaun maybe because he has some real value, but you are not getting anything valuable in return for Rip. Regardless, you have no cap space after this season which means another year of mediocrity.

It's very clear you have a bias against the Bulls, so I'll let you carry on without further interruption from myself.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 12:29 AM
Tayshaun maybe because he has some real value, but you are not getting anything valuable in return for Rip. Regardless, you have no cap space after this season which means another year of mediocrity.

It's very clear you have a bias against the Bulls, so I'll let you carry on without further interruption from myself.

Nah, after BG was signed by Detroit, Bulls fans constantly trashed him and explained how the Pistons are gonna suck with him and how Salmons is better than Rip and BG and how much better they are than Detroit, yet here we are. Sometimes you gotta eat your words. I could care a less about the Bulls, Detroit is on a 5 game winning streak, they have the best 4 guard combo in the league, fun to watch and have plenty of young talent to build on for the future.

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 12:39 AM
Nah, after BG was signed by Detroit, Bulls fans constantly trashed him and explained how the Pistons are gonna suck with him and how Salmons is better than Rip and BG and how much better they are than Detroit, yet here we are. Sometimes you gotta eat your words. I could care a less about the Bulls, Detroit is on a 5 game winning streak, they have the best 4 guard combo in the league, fun to watch and have plenty of young talent to build on for the future.

I can't speak for every Bulls fan, but I've never said such a thing. Now Luol Deng, he's better than Salmons, Gordon, or Rip.

Bulls are 8-14 as opposed to 10-12 last year at this point. We've played most of our games without our starting PF, Rose missed all of the preseason and his bum ankle has just now allowed him to start being aggressive. There's plenty of excuses available, but the season is still young and there's plenty of time to get to .500 which is all it will take to make the playoffs in the East.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:47 AM
Nah, after BG was signed by Detroit, Bulls fans constantly trashed him and explained how the Pistons are gonna suck with him and how Salmons is better than Rip and BG and how much better they are than Detroit, yet here we are. Sometimes you gotta eat your words. I could care a less about the Bulls, Detroit is on a 5 game winning streak, they have the best 4 guard combo in the league, fun to watch and have plenty of young talent to build on for the future.
How will you build on the young talent when you have no cap space to do anything?

albertc86
12-13-2009, 12:49 AM
Deng did play quite well, too, a few years ago but after Gordon's performance, the Bulls should've been shopping Deng.

JWO35
12-13-2009, 12:54 AM
I'm getting sick and tired of hearing all this Cap Space crap!
Having Cap Space doesn't mean you will sign a Superstar. Your not the only one with Cap Space by the way.

You can also build through trades, which the Pistons are known for (Hill for Wallace, Stackhouse for Hamilton)

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:56 AM
I'm getting sick and tired of hearing all this Cap Space crap!
Having Cap Space doesn't mean you will sign a Superstar. Your not the only one with Cap Space by the way.

You can also build through trades, which the Pistons are known for (Hill for Wallace, Stackhouse for Hamilton)
But the Bulls have a pretty good chance of landing one of the big FA's in 2010. Detroit really doesn't have anyone to trade that is really desirable besides Stuckey and maybe Prince.

NightMayer1558
12-13-2009, 12:56 AM
Ok, guys, let's hang on here before it gets out of hand.

First of all, when I brought up those stats I was talking from a pure scoring standpoint (as that is pretty much what Detroit signed BG to do).

And in the end, it was the smart move to make because you're out of your damn mind if you thought that a core of Rose and BG would've led us to a title. If we don't sign a big FA? Whatever, then, we move on. It's not like our cap space disappears.

Resigning BG would've kept us in a lock for another good 5 years or so, stuck as a playoff team, but nearly always a first round exit, trapped in a mix between our new young core and our old core.

Oh, and by the way, whoever said the bulls are one of the worst teams in the league without BG7 is an idiot. Especially considering the most impressive game in the series, Game 6, was the one where Gordon fouled out either late 4th quarter or early into the first overtime, if I remember correctly.

Good day.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 12:59 AM
I can't speak for every Bulls fan, but I've never said such a thing. Now Luol Deng, he's better than Salmons, Gordon, or Rip.

Bulls are 8-14 as opposed to 10-12 last year at this point. We've played most of our games without our starting PF, Rose missed all of the preseason and his bum ankle has just now allowed him to start being aggressive. There's plenty of excuses available, but the season is still young and there's plenty of time to get to .500 which is all it will take to make the playoffs in the East.

I like Deng's game but he hasn't proven anything. Rip is a proven champion and BG's proved himself on a big stage and is a clutch performer. I'de take BG & Rip over Deng just cause his contract is that bad. Do I have to mention the players we're missing again?

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 01:00 AM
How will you build on the young talent when you have no cap space to do anything?

Expiring contracts/trades.

b1e9a8r5s
12-13-2009, 01:06 AM
This is a crazy thread. The Bulls are going to have a lot of cap space (that they wouldn't have had if they would have signed BG). The Bulls with BG could maybe be a 2nd round playoff team but now they will have the chance to sign one of the big names like Wade or Bosh. Their ceiling will be much higher next year and they made the right move.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 01:55 AM
I find it hilarious when fans talk about cap space. Maybe the Bulls will sign a big free agent next year maybe they won't. It's a crap shoot. No guarantees. As of right now, today, you have most of your team in tact, and Pistons don't, and the Pistons are better. Not a contender yet by any means, but better. The playoffs are a pipe dream for the Bulls even in the Leastern Conference. As far as cap space, congratulations. I'd much rather be a team on the rise and winning now than praying after the losses mount that we use our cap space and get a big time superstar. Also cap space means nothing if you don't use it wisely, and we know what happen the last time you guys had cap space (Ben Wallace) :facepalm:. Funny how the Pistons are getting more production out of a guy while paying him under a mill than the Bulls got while paying him 10-12 mill a season. Ouch. Anyway I'm sure the Bulls will make it back to respectability in a year or two. That's just the nature of the NBA. Teams are good for a while then bad and then must rebuild. Some teams (Pistons) just know how to turn things around faster through trades, the draft, and free agency. So my suggestion is continue the LeBron, Wade, Bosh dreams, but this year I'd break out the old Jordan tapes. Oh yeah and thanks for Ben Gordon. :clap:

ko8e24
12-13-2009, 01:59 AM
This is a crazy thread. The Bulls are going to have a lot of cap space (that they wouldn't have had if they would have signed BG). The Bulls with BG could maybe be a 2nd round playoff team but now they will have the chance to sign one of the big names like Wade or Bosh. Their ceiling will be much higher next year and they made the right move.

i dont think any of the big free agents are going to chicago. they have derrick rose, joakim noah.......and that's it. luol deng is not the luol deng of the old, hinrich has overwelcomed his stay in chicago. Bulls really are not an appealing team for a big free agent to go to.

And bulls have a better chance of landing bosh than wade

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 02:13 AM
I find it hilarious when fans talk about cap space. Maybe the Bulls will sign a big free agent next year maybe they won't. It's a crap shoot. No guarantees. As of right now, today, you have most of your team in tact, and Pistons don't, and the Pistons are better. Not a contender yet by any means, but better. The playoffs are a pipe dream for the Bulls even in the Leastern Conference. As far as cap space, congratulations. I'd much rather be a team on the rise and winning now than praying after the losses mount that we use our cap space and get a big time superstar. Also cap space means nothing if you don't use it wisely, and we know what happen the last time you guys had cap space (Ben Wallace) :facepalm:. Funny how the Pistons are getting more production out of a guy while paying him under a mill than the Bulls got while paying him 10-12 mill a season. Ouch. Anyway I'm sure the Bulls will make it back to respectability in a year or two. That's just the nature of the NBA. Teams are good for a while then bad and then must rebuild. Some teams (Pistons) just know how to turn things around faster through trades, the draft, and free agency. So my suggestion is continue the LeBron, Wade, Bosh dreams, but this year I'd break out the old Jordan tapes. Oh yeah and thanks for Ben Gordon. :clap:

I'd make a post correcting your ignorance but I don't think it will change your (mostly wrong) opinions.


i dont think any of the big free agents are going to chicago. they have derrick rose, joakim noah.......and that's it. luol deng is not the luol deng of the old, hinrich has overwelcomed his stay in chicago. Bulls really are not an appealing team for a big free agent to go to.

And bulls have a better chance of landing bosh than wade

The Dallas Mavericks statistician has Luol Deng as the 6th most effective player in the league this season. So...

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 02:19 AM
i dont think any of the big free agents are going to chicago. they have derrick rose, joakim noah.......and that's it. luol deng is not the luol deng of the old, hinrich has overwelcomed his stay in chicago. Bulls really are not an appealing team for a big free agent to go to.

And bulls have a better chance of landing bosh than wade
LeBron James, Joe Johnson, and Carlos Boozer would beg to differ.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 02:29 AM
I'd make a post correcting your ignorance but I don't think it will change your (mostly wrong) opinions.



The Dallas Mavericks statistician has Luol Deng as the 6th most effective player in the league this season. So...


You're right, my bad, the Bulls probably won't return to respectability in the next few years. How ignorant.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 02:35 AM
You're welcome for Ben Gordon...much rather help the Pistons be in NBA Hell than do it to ourselves haha

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 02:38 AM
cus they is dumb

tcav701
12-13-2009, 02:40 AM
Maybe the bulls can use the cap space/losing record to sign/draft a point guard.

hahahahaha

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 02:41 AM
Good one?

tcav701
12-13-2009, 02:45 AM
Good one?

Did you see him against Rondo last night?

Its pretty clear that one is an all star and one is above average at best.

Chicago puts way too much pressure on this kid who hasnt proved anything yet.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 02:47 AM
LeBron James, Joe Johnson, and Carlos Boozer would beg to differ.

Okay wait a minute. You think all these guys are gonna sign with the Bulls, and you suggest I'm ignorant? ROTFLMAO.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 02:49 AM
Are you kidding?? Rose was driving by Rondo all night long and that is all the commentators were talking about tonight. Haha did you even watch the game? You probably just looked at the box score and saw Rondo's numbers which h racked up in garbage time. Get your facts straight

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 02:49 AM
ben gordon for threeeeeeeee!

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 02:50 AM
Okay wait a minute. You think all these guys are gonna sign with the Bulls, and you suggest I'm ignorant? ROTFLMAO.
I didn't say that they are all signing with the Bulls, and never called you ignorant. But these three have all said they would be interested in playing in Chicago.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 02:52 AM
You're welcome for Ben Gordon...much rather help the Pistons be in NBA Hell than do it to ourselves haha

Obviously we have different views on NBA Hell. To me NBA Hell is slipping down in the standings.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 02:54 AM
Obviously we have different views on NBA Hell. To me NBA Hell is slipping down in the standings.
That's weird because anywhere else on here that I have seen it discussed, it is defined as being a 5-8 seed with no real chance of even sniffing the Finals or even Conference Finals for that matter

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 02:55 AM
MAN i cant wait till the pistons are healthy. ben gordon would light the bulls' *** coming off the bench

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 02:55 AM
That's weird because anywhere else on here that I have seen it discussed, it is defined as being a 5-8 seed with no real chance of even sniffing the Finals or even Conference Finals for that matter

So basically the Bulls the last 10 years?

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:00 AM
So basically the Bulls the last 10 years?
You're great at dodging posts...i've already proved you wrong and you didn't respond like three times in this thread tonight...it's not worth the effort

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:00 AM
I didn't say that they are all signing with the Bulls, and never called you ignorant. But these three have all said they would be interested in playing in Chicago.

Well mark my words and I'm speaking objectively here. LeBron will either be in Cleveland or N.Y. Joe Johnson will mostly likely get a max deal with the still up and coming Hawks. And Boozer has his eyes set on Miami. I think the Bulls best shot is Bosh who def leaves Toronto. And that would be great for you plus that high lottery pick should help some. Will that put you over the top? Remains to be seen.

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 03:01 AM
if the bulls kept bg over kirk, i wonder
if they didnt overpay deng, i wonder
if they didnt trade away lamarcus, i wonder
wow that would be pretty good

rose
gordon
deng
lamarcus
noah

wow!

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:01 AM
You're great at dodging posts...i've already proved you wrong and you didn't respond like three times in this thread tonight...it's not worth the effort

which posts?

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:03 AM
Well mark my words and I'm speaking objectively here. LeBron will either be in Cleveland or N.Y. Joe Johnson will mostly likely get a max deal with the still up and coming Hawks. And Boozer has his eyes set on Miami. I think the Bulls best shot is Bosh who def leaves Toronto. And that would be great for you plus that high lottery pick should help some. Will that put you over the top? Remains to be seen.
Yeah, I would say our best shot is probably Amare or Bosh, maybe Boozer. LBJ will be in Cleveland, NY, or NJ

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:04 AM
which posts?
You can go look through 100+ posts for it

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:05 AM
That's weird because anywhere else on here that I have seen it discussed, it is defined as being a 5-8 seed with no real chance of even sniffing the Finals or even Conference Finals for that matter

Well if that's so then there another eight teams that are in NBA HELL. And another say 13 that aren't sniffing NBA Hell, you're team at the moment included. So sticking with your definition, I'll take it.

haris23
12-13-2009, 03:05 AM
Because BG is undersized, inconsistent, and is a defensive liability. BG got hot the right time last year and that is the only reason he was solid in the playoffs. BG is one of the streakiest players in the game and is the main reason I am not a fan of him. Even when hes cold, he'll still jack up a ton of shots.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:05 AM
You can go look through 100+ posts for it

exactly. keep making things up sweety.

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 03:07 AM
bg is so fireee! soooo fast! then quick!! soo GOood!
bg> kirk + samon anyday

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:09 AM
Hmm, you're way off. We beat Philly in our only meeting, split with the Bucks, haven't even played the Wizards, and just beat Golden State in our only meeting. Way to get your facts straight.
There's an example with regard to you saying we lost to Phi, Was, GS, and Mil. Not to mention others and other posters proving you wrong all night.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:10 AM
So basically the Bulls the last 10 years?

Has it been ten years in Hell for the Bulls LOL? Wow!

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:11 AM
bg is so fireee! soooo fast! then quick!! soo GOood!
bg> kirk + samon anyday
I don't argue that at all

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:11 AM
There's a example, not to mention others and other posters proving you wong all night

You're right, you guys lost against worse teams like the Nets. I apoligize, your team is worse than I thought.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:12 AM
Has it been ten years in Hell for the Bulls LOL? Wow!
6 rings....No Big Deal

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:13 AM
You're right, you guys lost against worse teams like the Nets. I apoligize, your team is worse than I thought.
You said that in your original so that's erroneous

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 03:13 AM
Has it been ten years in Hell for the Bulls LOL? Wow!
i think eleven

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:14 AM
one player wonder. Maybe Jordan will come out of retirement again though. who knows.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:15 AM
one player wonder. Maybe Jordan will come out of retirement again though. who knows.
Oh yeah, that was another. So you're saying Scottie Pippen had nothing to do with those championships?

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:16 AM
You said that in your original so that's erroneous

yes, and I said I made a mistake by thinking the Bulls lost to better opponents.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:17 AM
Oh yeah, that was another. So you're saying Scottie Pippen had nothing to do with those championships?

What'd he do after Jordan left? oh that's right...

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:21 AM
Because BG is undersized, inconsistent, and is a defensive liability. BG got hot the right time last year and that is the only reason he was solid in the playoffs. BG is one of the streakiest players in the game and is the main reason I am not a fan of him. Even when hes cold, he'll still jack up a ton of shots.

I think maybe he had to jack up a bunch of shots for the Bulls last season. Watching him this year with the Pistons, there's so many offensive weapons that his shots are down as well as scoring, but he's more of an all around player. So maybe it's all about the system and supporting cast. Cause it's early, but Piston fans love him.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:22 AM
What'd he do after Jordan left? oh that's right...
He went to Houston and averaged 15 ppg, 7 apg, and 6 rpg in his mid-thirties. But with the Bulls, he was on the All-NBA First Team three times, and 8x Defensive First Team...yeah, that sucks so much

Ovratd1up
12-13-2009, 03:24 AM
Stop with all of the bashing. It is childish and is making mostly everyone involved in it look dumb.

What Chicago is missing the most right now and the largest reason why they are, frankly, terrible as a team, is because of their lack of three point shooting. Teams don't respect their long range shooting, and rightfully so, and it is closing down all of the lanes for Deng, Salmons, and most importantly Rose. This is why everyone is playing poorly and inefficiently this year, and the team is sucking.

The Bulls thought they could make up for what they lost in Gordon because they had Salmons, who they thought could play the Two and score as effectively as Gordon did. They thought they had three point shooting from Salmons and Hinrich, who would both play shooting guard. Thus far they have both failed miserably.

They also thought that losing Gordon would create better ball movement, which has been true to some extent; however, the ball-hogging capabilities of John Salmons were vastly underrated. And they chose Salmons/Hinrich (defense) over Gordon (offense) and the defense has improved since last season.

Plus, if they had signed Gordon and kept Hinrich, they would have eliminated their chance at a premier free agent next summer and any chance at a contender. (And if they had dealt Kirk, they wouldn't have had a backup PG beyond Hunter and Pargo, and you know how Garpax hates using those minimum contracts)

So they put too much stock in Salmons' production, the team's outside shooting, and Rose's ability to score without any of the above. As did I. I would say the only real mistake was not trading Kirk for expirings while they could and resigning Gordon.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:25 AM
How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan and with Pippen. z-e-r-o.

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 03:26 AM
if the bulls kept bg over kirk, i wonder
if they didnt overpay deng, i wonder
if they didnt trade away lamarcus, i wonder
wow that would be pretty good

rose
gordon
deng
lamarcus
noah

wow!

What if the Pistons drafted Wade, Carmelo, or Bosh instead of Darko...

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:27 AM
How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan and with Pippen. z-e-r-o.
We will never know.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:28 AM
What if the Pistons drafted Wade, Carmelo, or Bosh instead of Darko...
Haha yes!

abe_froman
12-13-2009, 03:28 AM
I mean the show he put on in the playoffs was beyond ridiculous. Big shot after big shot. Going toe to toe with Ray Allen in the clutch. It was amazing to watch.

How could they let this dude get away? Their ace in the whole was bringing him in as instant offense off the bench. Now they're struggling to put up points?

Was this not a huge srew up? I would've been willing to give up Deng to make room for this guy.

resigning him would have taken us out of the 2010 thing.so while gordon is good offensive player and its hurting us right now,but we looked it more as missing out on lebron,boah,jj,ect would have hurt more

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:29 AM
6 rings....No Big Deal

Come on man. Everybody in the world Pistons fan or not knows and respects the fact that the Bulls won six rings with the greatest player ever to play the game. And the Celtics have won bunch of titles as have the Lakers. Pistons have a few. The who's got the most titles argument should be in another thread. Right now we're taking about the present Bulls who ain't the Jordan Bulls. The NBA is a what have you done for me lately league so as a Bulls fans answer that one.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:31 AM
How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan and with Pippen. z-e-r-o.
So...do you want to ban superstars from playing now or what?

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:33 AM
Come on man. Everybody in the world Pistons fan or not knows and respects the fact that the Bulls won six rings with the greatest player ever to play the game. And the Celtics have won bunch of titles as have the Lakers. Pistons have a few. The who's got the most titles argument should be in another thread. Right now we're taking about the present Bulls who ain't the Jordan Bulls. The NBA is a what have you done for me lately league so as a Bulls fans answer that one.
Okay well clearly not everyone respects the Bulls when they won 6. And If we are going by those standards the Bulls and Pistons both lost in the first round last year, and both teams are under .500

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:33 AM
if the bulls kept bg over kirk, i wonder
if they didnt overpay deng, i wonder
if they didnt trade away lamarcus, i wonder
wow that would be pretty good

rose
gordon
deng
lamarcus
noah

wow!

Yeah now that squad would be nice. Oh well.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:35 AM
Yeah now that squad would be nice. Oh well.
I didn't see anyone respond to the drafting Darko post

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:35 AM
As for the Bulls getting better defensivly and the Pistons getting worse: The Bulls allow 98.66 PPG (15th best) the Pistons Allow 94.63 which is 5th best in the NBA.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:39 AM
As for the Bulls getting better defensivly and the Pistons getting worse: The Bulls allow 98.66 PPG (15th best) the Pistons Allow 94.63 which is 5th best in the NBA.
That's not really a fair comparison because Tyrus is a big part of our defense and has been injured, and Kirk was also injured for a while.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:40 AM
I didn't see anyone respond to the drafting Darko post

If we didn't draft Darko and didn't end up signing Rasheed the Pistons might not of won a ring in 04, play in the finals, and a handful of ecf's. who knows.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:41 AM
That's not really a fair comparison because Tyrus is a big part of our defense and has been injured, and Kirk was also injured for a while.

I know, Prince & Rip havn't been playing all season, otherwise the Pistons are even better defensivly. Thx for the reminder.

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 03:46 AM
As for the Bulls getting better defensivly and the Pistons getting worse: The Bulls allow 98.66 PPG (15th best) the Pistons Allow 94.63 which is 5th best in the NBA.

The Pistons rank 20th in defensive rating

The Bulls rank 17th

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:48 AM
Haha yes!

Let's see the Pistons made a mistake and drafted Darko instead and still won a championship. The Bulls traded Aldridge, signed Big Ben, let Ben G. go, traded Elton Brand for the 2nd pick in 01 and selected Chandler, selected Curry with the 4th pick another first rounder. Passed on Gasol, Joe Johnson, etc. Then trade them both and made playoffs what 2 twice in that time. Piston's have turned the Darko mistake into Stuckey :clap:

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:48 AM
I wonder what would have happened if Jay Williams didn't get in a motorcycle accident after his rookie season...anyone can play th hypothetical game

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:49 AM
I know, Prince & Rip havn't been playing all season, otherwise the Pistons are even better defensivly. Thx for the reminder.
Oh i thought you said you were trading them earlier?

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:50 AM
Let's see the Pistons made a mistake and drafted Darko instead and still won a championship. The Bulls traded Aldridge, signed Big Ben, let Ben G. go, traded Elton Brand for the 2nd pick in 01 and selected Chandler, selected Curry with the 4th pick another first rounder. Passed on Gasol, Joe Johnson, etc. Then trade them both and made playoffs what 2 twice in that time. Piston's have turned the Darko mistake into Stuckey :clap:
So you'd rather have Stuckey than D Wade, Bosh, or Melo?

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:52 AM
The Pistons rank 20th in defensive rating

The Bulls rank 17th

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html#top

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 03:53 AM
Okay well clearly not everyone respects the Bulls when they won 6. And If we are going by those standards the Bulls and Pistons both lost in the first round last year, and both teams are under .500

You're point is well taken. But I was responding to an original post that implied that this year the Pistons are not a better team than the Bulls and were doomed while existing in NBA hell. I'm not one to argue with facts only opinions that I disagree with.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:54 AM
Oh i thought you said you were trading them earlier?

I thought the Bulls were trading Tyrus?

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 03:55 AM
http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html#top

What is your point?

My point is the Bulls defense has been statistically better this season.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 03:56 AM
I thought the Bulls were trading Tyrus?
I know the Pistons would like to have him

Chronz
12-13-2009, 03:57 AM
First off, another one of these "why would Chicago let BG7 leave?!" threads? Really?...ok.

Alright, first off let me say that I am from Chicago, and am a Bulls fan, and that i am not a fan of Ben Gordon.

First the stats:

In the playoffs last year with Chicago, in which the Bulls took the Celtics to 7 games:

He shot 38.8% from the field, 37% from 3
that's not exactly lighting it up

Why the hell would the Bulls want to give BG7 60M/5Y??? He is not the guy that will win you a championship, he is a 5'11" SG that can't guard anybody, takes the most ridiculous shots, stops the flow of the offense, dribbles off his foot, and is best when coming off the bench.

You should not pay a 6th man $12M a year.

Such are the dangers relying on outdated stats. Ben Gordons 38% was actually more efficient than Rose 49% shooting. BG had the higher True Shooting%

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 03:58 AM
I know the Pistons would like to have him

Nah, rather have Maxiell. Same type player without the 12 year attitute and 5 year old IQ.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 04:00 AM
What is your point?

My point is the Bulls defense has been statistically better this season.

How so? They get blown out every game.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:02 AM
Nah, rather have Maxiell. Same type player without the 12 year attitute and 5 year old IQ.
Pretty sure I just saw a thread about the Pistons getting him, and there is no way I would take Maxiell over Ty

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 04:03 AM
Such are the dangers relying on outdated stats. Ben Gordons 38% was actually more efficient than Rose 49% shooting. BG had the higher True Shooting%

I'd rather used eFG% and keep contested shots separated from uncontested free throws.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:03 AM
How so? They get blown out every game.
That's why we are what, 2 games behind the almighty pistons?

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 04:03 AM
So you'd rather have Stuckey than D Wade, Bosh, or Melo?


Right now, I'd take D Wade or Melo for sure. At the time no one I repeat no knew Wade would be what he is. As I stated, huge mistake. I was totally upset with the Darko selection, but every GM in the league thought he was the second coming of Dirk. That being said when you win a championship the same year and then turn that mistake into an up and coming star like Stuckey it eases the pain of not drafting one of those guys. But yeah who wouldn't take those guys right now. Thanks for stating the obvious, but what does this have to do with the state of the Bulls?

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 04:04 AM
Pretty sure I just saw a thread about the Pistons getting him, and there is no way I would take Maxiell over Ty

One person wanting him doesn't mean every fan.

Chronz
12-13-2009, 04:05 AM
How so? They get blown out every game.

Because who wins the game is dependent on both offense and defense. You could have the best defense in the league and not win a single game, it would require you to have like Bruce Bowen type players at every position. Imagine that, that team would be tough to score on, but given all the possessions that transpire in an nba game that team would score like 44pts. They would allow 88 or so and lead the league but they would get blown out every game.

Thats the Bulls, without BG they arent an efficient offense though they are showing signs of improvement defensively. Though hard to say how much of that is due to not having BG, I like Noah's progression on that end more than BG's departure.

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 04:06 AM
How so? They get blown out every game.

I didn't say the Bulls defense was great, but they have allowed fewer points per possession than the Pistons. You post PPG allowed which is a rather useless statistic.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:07 AM
One person wanting him doesn't mean every fan.
Definitely more than one, hey how is Kwame Brown doing?

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 04:07 AM
That's why we are what, 2 games behind the almighty pistons?

And heading farther south at an alarming rate.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 04:10 AM
Definitely more than one, hey how is Kwame Brown doing?

For a back up big man who's making four mill, Exactly what the Pistons need him to do.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 04:11 AM
Definitely more than one, hey how is Kwame Brown doing?

Good actually. Solid back bigman who's contract is expiring.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 04:11 AM
I know the Pistons would like to have him

Nah you can keep him LOL.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:12 AM
And heading farther south at an alarming rate.
Probably has something to do with in the last 13 games we played the @Lakers, Boston, @Denver, @Atlanta, @Cleveland , @Portland, @Utah, and Lakers again

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 04:14 AM
Probably has something to do with in the last 13 games we played the @Lakers, Boston, @Denver, @Atlanta, @Cleveland , @Portland, @Utah, and Lakers again

Don't forget the Nets.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:15 AM
^^That's like the only point you have made, they really aren't that bad of a team. Don't forget the Bulls were 6-4 before this brutal stretch

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 04:16 AM
I didn't say the Bulls defense was great, but they have allowed fewer points per possession than the Pistons. You post PPG allowed which is a rather useless statistic.

Last week DET was 21st in that regard and CHI was 19th, Pistons won 5 straight and the Bulls got blown out like 3 times since then, so i'de imagine DET is better right now. If not, it's a worthless stat.

aZekuiS
12-13-2009, 04:17 AM
^^That's like the only point you have made, they really aren't that bad of a team. Don't forget the Bulls were 6-4 before this brutal stretch

Too bad the season isn't 10 games.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 04:17 AM
Don't forget the Nets.

LOL. Yep that powerhouse dynasty the Nets

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:21 AM
Just saying the Bulls are not as bad as you're making them out to be

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 04:30 AM
Just saying the Bulls are not as bad as you're making them out to be

Yeah the Bulls have some nice pieces. I'm actually kinda rooting for them to get better. Keep the rivalry with the Pistons alive.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 04:31 AM
Yeah the Bulls have some nice pieces. I'm actually kinda rooting for them to get better. Keep the rivalry with the Pistons alive.
It will live on forever

SteveNash
12-13-2009, 05:15 AM
Does anyone still believe that Salmons is better than Gordon?

Chronz
12-13-2009, 06:26 AM
I'd rather used eFG% and keep contested shots separated from uncontested free throws.
How do you keep contested shots from uncontested free throws? Whats a contested free throw? Sounds rather subjective to something that really isnt all that difficult to assess. Truth be told, a players offensive rating is all that really matters. That lets you know the kind of loss to expect your team to overcome. Regardless of shooting% its the bottom line of production.

ChiSox219
12-13-2009, 07:13 AM
How do you keep contested shots from uncontested free throws? Whats a contested free throw? Sounds rather subjective to something that really isnt all that difficult to assess. Truth be told, a players offensive rating is all that really matters. That lets you know the kind of loss to expect your team to overcome. Regardless of shooting% its the bottom line of production.

Every time you take a FT it is at your own pace from the same spot every time. Even an uncontested field goal attempt is not really at your own pace because if you wait long enough the defense will close.

I prefer to use eFG% for a quick idea of how good a shooter is and then supplement it with FT% if I'm curious about what he does from there. BTW, getting to the foul line can be subjective.

As for offensive rating, adjust it for the teammates and opponents and I am all for that.

PippenBulls
12-13-2009, 12:05 PM
Move over Miami fans, Detroit fans have taken your spot for the worst fans on this forum. It really looks like they hate the bulls more than they like the pistons.

Gators123
12-13-2009, 12:09 PM
Move over Miami fans, Detroit fans have taken your spot for the worst fans on this forum. It really looks like they hate the bulls more than they like the pistons.

Pistons fans are the worst on this forum? :laugh:

I wouldn't be surprised if I went over to the comparison forum right now and found a "Derrick Rose Vs Jesus" thread.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:14 PM
Pistons fans are the worst on this forum? :laugh:

I wouldn't be surprised if I went over to the comparison forum right now and found a "Derrick Rose Vs Jesus" thread.
And you continue to hate on the Bulls...

Gators123
12-13-2009, 12:15 PM
And you continue to hate on the Bulls...

I am hating and your not?

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:18 PM
I am hating and your not?
I have been defending the Bulls against ludicrous comments throughout the thread...Pistons fans are the ones who started bashing the Bulls

Gators123
12-13-2009, 12:21 PM
I have been defending the Bulls against ludicrous comments throughout the thread...Pistons fans are the ones who started bashing the Bulls

By post #4 Bulls fans were already Bashing Ben Gordon.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:27 PM
By post #4 Bulls fans were already Bashing Ben Gordon.
But that was nothing against the Pistons, it was just presenting facts about Ben Gordon and what he did in Chicago. If you look at my original post, it had nothing to do with the Pistons, but simply why I feel the Bulls made the move that they did.

jayantwhite
12-13-2009, 12:32 PM
And you continue to hate on the Bulls...

No hate for the Bulls. Just defending after all the Ben Gordon bashing. As a Pistons fan I watched Ben Gordon almost single handedly keep the Bulls in the Celtics series last year and what most teams do after a performance like that is make sure they lock the player down, not let him go on a prayer that in two years we'll use cap space on a pipe dream.

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:37 PM
No hate for the Bulls. Just defending after all the Ben Gordon bashing. As a Pistons fan I watched Ben Gordon almost single handedly keep the Bulls in the Celtics series last year and what most teams do after a performance like that is make sure they lock the player down, not let him go on a prayer that in two years we'll use cap space on a pipe dream.
But you have to understand the Bulls' standpoint on the issue. They were not going to win a title or get anywhere near the finals if they had given Ben a long term contract. The Bulls would rather go after someone who would give them a chance to compete with the big teams, and giving that much money to a 6th man was not the solution. In hindsight, the Bulls DID offer Ben a contract which he rejected, so it's not like they made no effort.

Gators123
12-13-2009, 12:41 PM
But you have to understand the Bulls' standpoint on the issue. They were not going to win a title or get anywhere near the finals if they had given Ben a long term contract. The Bulls would rather go after someone who would give them a chance to compete with the big teams, and giving that much money to a 6th man was not the solution. In hindsight, the Bulls DID offer Ben a contract which he rejected, so it's not like they made no effort.

Kirk is making almost 10 mil per year

Kirks stats...
8 points
4 rebounds
33% shooting

Cubsfan365
12-13-2009, 12:44 PM
Kirk is making almost 10 mil per year

Kirks stats...
8 points
4 rebounds
33% shooting
And how long have the Bulls been trying to trade him?

chisox..YES!
12-13-2009, 12:44 PM
Basically, if the Bulls locked Gordon up and used all our cap space, we would be a solid team stuck in mediocrity without a chance to win a championship for the next 5 years. At least with the available cap space we can potentially sign a star player to pair along with Rose. Is Gordon a good player? Definitely. Is he a star? **** no.

NightMayer1558
12-13-2009, 02:44 PM
Guys, come on! Stop all this hating we're not even on topic anymore!

We've done what we needed to do. We needed to take a risk to have a chance at making some real progress so what's done is done.

And haters (this is for both sides), please bring up some truly valid non-statement of the obvious points if you want to actually contribute and be taken seriously.

aZekuIs and Gators to an extent, I've skimmed through your posts and I've been hard-pressed to find anything that wasn't a very obvious statement or just a cheap shot at us. Yes, we've won no titles since the Jordan/Pippen era. Yes, Salmons is sucking, we've lost humiliatingly to the Nets, and obviously we would be better a team with BG considering we didn't get anything back, but who the **** doesn't know that? Not to mention you were supposedly under the impression that we've lost to every single team in your 5-game winning streak, considering we've beaten Philly, GS, split with Milwaukee, lost to Denver, and haven't even played Washington yet. So get your facts straight too.

So, I'll play your game for a second. If we're supposedly "one of the worst teams in the league" as aZekuIs said, how come you lost to us then? How come Salmons, despite how much he's been struggling this season, dropped 22 on you guys? Not to mention you guys at one point lost 8 of 9? By your logic, your loss is more humiliating because you think we're worse than the Nets, and being plagued by injuries is irrelevant because we're banged up too and that didn't excuse us for losing to the Nets (which it doesn't, for the record).

See what I did there? If you want to be taken seriously, bring some logic and validity to your arguments, don't just state the obvious.

Good day.

Gators123
12-13-2009, 02:49 PM
We lost to you because Hamilton, Prince and Charlie V didn't play. And Ben Gordon said he was only 60% he didn't practice that whole week and after the bulls game hes missed multiple games. He shouldn't of played he only injured himself even more.

So yeah, Bulls beat the pistons when Detroit was without 3 starters and the 6th man was injured

jimbobjarree
12-13-2009, 02:52 PM
I guess it depends if they get anyone in FA. If not signing gordon opened space for a star then it was a wise move I guess

Gators123
12-13-2009, 02:53 PM
and being plagued by injuries is irrelevant because we're banged up too and that didn't excuse us for losing to the Nets (which it doesn't, for the record).


Good day.

Banged up? Kirk and Tyrus are ****ing garbage

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Banged up? Kirk and Tyrus are ****ing garbage

lol maybe when tyrus leaves, he will all of a sudden play extremely well since the bulls sucked too much so he didnt try :D

kirk sucks

itsripcity32
12-13-2009, 03:01 PM
Rip, Prince, CV, injured BG > Hinrich and Thomas anyyyy day

NightMayer1558
12-13-2009, 03:30 PM
:facepalm:

I wasn't being serious on that last part of the post. I was merely making an example of what some obvious hater comments like aZeKuIs was posting and how stupid and irrelevant they sounded.

Obviously, I do not believe this is the case, I'm just sick of haters from both sides just posting random flaming comments all over the place.

I hold no hatred toward Pistons fans or any fans in general, just the ones that post hater comments (which include those in the Bulls fanbase).

So, all, sorry if you guys misinterpreted what I posted. I look forward to playing you guys again and watching one of the most bitter rivalries in NBA history continue.

Good day.

Cash
12-13-2009, 03:33 PM
This is great. You can clearly tell who the adults are and the 14 year olds are by reading this topic.

Gators123
12-13-2009, 03:37 PM
:facepalm:

I wasn't being serious on that last part of the post. I was merely making an example of what some obvious hater comments like aZeKuIs was posting and how stupid and irrelevant they sounded.

Obviously, I do not believe this is the case, I'm just sick of haters from both sides just posting random flaming comments all over the place.

I hold no hatred toward Pistons fans or any fans in general, just the ones that post hater comments (which include those in the Bulls fanbase).

So, all, sorry if you guys misinterpreted what I posted. I look forward to playing you guys again and watching one of the most bitter rivalries in NBA history continue.

Good day.

:cheers:

Mell413
12-13-2009, 04:05 PM
Gordon is not a player that you can build around. He's a good player don't get me wrong, but if the Bulls locked him up they would be stuck in mediocrity. I think most Bulls fans knew there would be times he would be missed. They needed to give themselves a chance at getting one of the 2010 free agents.

The only thing I didn't like was how the team was trying to spin it. At media day they said that they had the lineup to make defensive stops because Ben Gordon is not here. Right now they are not stopping anyone and having trouble scoring. I think this team is showing that they have defensive issues and they don't have BG to blame it on.

Ovratd1up
12-13-2009, 05:53 PM
The immaturity in this thread is astounding.