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View Full Version : Can A NBA Team Win A Championship With 2 Elite Swingmen?



Fresno
12-07-2009, 04:10 PM
This is in part to a lot of people believing that Roy & Durant could co-exist together in Portland. I just haven't seen much to prove that an Elite SG can co-exist with an elite SF. We've seen Iverson & Melo struggle to co-exist, along with other teams deal with the issues of having 2 swingmen looking to score. You can look at Mayo & Gay putting up points together but struggling to co-exist.

The only example throughout history has been Jordan & Pippen. These guys together in several seasons combined to take over 40 shots per game. Yet their teams didn't struggle because of how great Jordan was as a player.

I just dont see it happening ever again where a team can go far with an elite SG and SF. Its always been an elite swingman with an elite big man, or an elite PG with an elite big man.

Wilson
12-07-2009, 04:38 PM
It depends on the players involved and the coaching staff.

Jordan and Pippen worked because Pippen wasn't a guy who needed a ton of shots, and they played in an offense which emphasises ball movement and moving without the ball. I see no reason why that couldn't happen again.

Evolution23
12-07-2009, 04:51 PM
lets see if Kobe and Artest can coexist

Gibby23
12-07-2009, 04:52 PM
lets see if Kobe and Artest can coexist

But they have Gasol and Bynum.

29$JerZ
12-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Well Jordan and Scottie did it.
Recently everyone needed a big man, Kobe Shaq, Chauncey/Sheed, Tony/Duncan,etc

Maybe a decent Center could work but I don't see it happening.

zambo4president
12-07-2009, 04:54 PM
You gotta have a big man.

da wood
12-07-2009, 05:02 PM
no you dont need a big man i beleive denver have a very good chance to win this year and thier star guys are a pg and a sf. need i say more

sofargone
12-07-2009, 05:03 PM
it depends. most teams need a dominant big man to win.

albertc86
12-07-2009, 05:05 PM
Jordan and Pippen also had Rodman. Arguably one of the best rebounders ever considering his frame.

Gibby23
12-07-2009, 05:06 PM
no you dont need a big man i beleive denver have a very good chance to win this year and thier star guys are a pg and a sf. need i say more

Yes, because they havn't won a Championship and probably will not because they don't have a go to big man.

madiaz3
12-07-2009, 05:13 PM
lets see if Kobe and Artest can coexist

Artest isn't an elite swingman.

I agree with this thread btw, to all of those who see Lebron and Wade clicking instantly for a championship. Not going to happen until one decides to officially take the back seat.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-07-2009, 05:34 PM
2 elite swingmen and decent teamates?

A lineup like this seems would win a title

C-Perkins
PF-Horford
SF-Lebron
SG-Wade
PG-Jack

I would have put Kobe but Wade and Lebron are like best friends so I put em there.

That team would win a title.

BlondeBomber41
12-07-2009, 05:35 PM
Well if we are talking Portland than absolutely Roy/Durant could of worked together. You act like if they had taken Durant they would have nobody down low. They would of still had Lamarcus Aldridge as their post man and already had Joel Pryzbilla, who is a very good defensive/rebounding center.

I would of taken Oden as well if I was the Blazers based on size and potential but its quite obvious I would of made the wrong choice, just like its obvious the Blazers made the wrong choice.

BlondeBomber41
12-07-2009, 05:36 PM
2 elite swingmen and decent teamates?

A lineup like this seems would win a title

C-Perkins
PF-Horford
SF-Lebron
SG-Wade
PG-Jack

I would have put Kobe but Wade and Lebron are like best friends so I put em there.

That team would win a title.

Not in this league. Horford/Perkins would be great defensively but you need someone who can score down low. Horford puts up like 14 a game on put backs and dunks but he isn't a scorer.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-07-2009, 05:46 PM
Not in this league. Horford/Perkins would be great defensively but you need someone who can score down low. Horford puts up like 14 a game on put backs and dunks but he isn't a scorer.

Replace 1 with Bargnani.

C-Bargnani
PF-Horford
SF-Lebron
SG-Wade
PG-Jack/Whatever decent PG

Does that look better?

Horford and Bargnani combined can get from 30-35 PPG.

mlisica19
12-07-2009, 05:51 PM
Well my philosophy is having that one main ball handler and outside scorer with a big man down low blah blah blah type of player. And its not just this generation, its trhoughout the history of the sport. You need diversity... Even the bulls had some pretty good big men (Rodman, that slavic center etc etc and it really didnt matter cause Pippen and Jordan were hall of famers since tehir #1 championship let alone the other 5).

But it is possible to have only a Shooting Guard and a Small Forward and be susccesfull. Of course Ai didn't work with Carmelo, you put too individuals who love to score and only know how to score on the same team. A,I isnt a playmaker nor a winner, but now look once u put a successful guard on his team.

Lebron James and Dwayne Wade are strong enough to win by themselves, they know ho to win not just score. They both are elite defenders let alone elite on the attack. They both are teh best of their generation. They would def healthy win a ring.. it hasnt worked since jordan cuz we havnt had a player like jordan.

SteveNash
12-07-2009, 07:47 PM
Allen/Pierce

But Durant hasn't proven to be elite.

dodie53
12-07-2009, 08:00 PM
MJ and Pippen had Longley.
:)

Hawkeye15
12-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Artest isn't an elite swingman.

I agree with this thread btw, to all of those who see Lebron and Wade clicking instantly for a championship. Not going to happen until one decides to officially take the back seat.

for sure. And you need big men willing to do the dirty work and defend.

JayAllDay
12-07-2009, 08:47 PM
Celtics did it no?
Ray Allen and Paul Pierce?

JayAllDay
12-07-2009, 08:49 PM
2 elite swingmen and decent teamates?

A lineup like this seems would win a title

C-Perkins
PF-Horford
SF-Lebron
SG-Wade
PG-Jack

I would have put Kobe but Wade and Lebron are like best friends so I put em there.

That team would win a title.

Nice to know your opinion about something that is completely irrelevant to the subject.
Get your video game roster outta here.

Lakersfan2483
12-07-2009, 09:02 PM
Yes, I believe two elite wing players can win a title. The team would have to be a hard nosed, defensived minded team like the old Bulls/Pistons teams.

Lakersfan2483
12-07-2009, 09:08 PM
One possible Championship team would look like this:

Kirk Hinrich/Derek Fisher
Kobe Bryant/Raja Bell
Carmelo Anthony/James Posey
Rashard Lewis/Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor/Nazr Mohamed

This team would have hard-nosed defensive players at each position, shooters, 2 great, elite closers in Kobe and Melo, and very good rebounders. Versatile players like Odom and Lewis would also be extremely important to have.

NJBASEBALL22
12-07-2009, 09:24 PM
Yes, I believe two elite wing players can win a title. The team would have to be a hard nosed, defensived minded team like the old Bulls/Pistons teams.

Finally someone said it. Jordan is probably the best defensive SG in history, and Pippen was probably the top defensive SF in the game at the time, plus they had Rodman who is maybe the best defensive pf in history. So defense was kind of their game although they had the game's greatest scorer too.

Jordan kinda of worked how Kobe/LeBron works now or how TMac did, he brought the ball up a lot early in his career, he was clearly a better driver than them (except maybe LeBron) but similar game when compared to their function in their team's offense.

JasonJohnHorn
12-07-2009, 09:33 PM
Its happened before; 91, 92, 93, 96, 97 and 98.

NJBASEBALL22
12-07-2009, 09:33 PM
Not to mention, those Bulls teams were very unselfish. They had Jordan and Pippen both avg over 5 assists a game. Toni Kukoc, off the bench, avg 4.something assists a game while with the Bulls. Rodman avg 2.7ish assist a game with the Bulls. Longley avg 3 assist a game as a Bull.

They did not need a dominant scoring center for many reasons.
1. Great team defense.
2. Great team rebounding.
3. Jordan and Pippen were so apt at getting to the basket.
4. Their team moved the ball and had multiple scoring threats on O.

Lakersfan2483
12-07-2009, 09:47 PM
Not to mention, those Bulls teams were very unselfish. They had Jordan and Pippen both avg over 5 assists a game. Toni Kukoc, off the bench, avg 4.something assists a game while with the Bulls. Rodman avg 2.7ish assist a game with the Bulls. Longley avg 3 assist a game as a Bull.

They did not need a dominant scoring center for many reasons.
1. Great team defense.
2. Great team rebounding.
3. Jordan and Pippen were so apt at getting to the basket.
4. Their team moved the ball and had multiple scoring threats on O.

I definitely believe if two elite wings like Kobe/Melo and or Lebron/B. Roy were put in a similar situation to the old Bulls' teams, they would win a title. As you eluded to in your post, it would take an unselfish group that emphasized ball movement, and hard nosed defense. The team would have to be a great rebounding team with shooters similar to Chicago's shooters(Hodges, Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc, Armstrong).

*I selected Roy for Bron's backup mate because I believe one star would have to take a back seat and I could see Roy willing to do so, ditto for Melo.

JordansBulls
12-07-2009, 10:21 PM
lets see if Kobe and Artest can coexist

I think this is more if the team doesn't have an allstar big man.

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 02:05 AM
One possible Championship team would look like this:

Kirk Hinrich/Derek Fisher
Kobe Bryant/Raja Bell
Carmelo Anthony/James Posey
Rashard Lewis/Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor/Nazr Mohamed

This team would have hard-nosed defensive players at each position, shooters, 2 great, elite closers in Kobe and Melo, and very good rebounders. Versatile players like Odom and Lewis would also be extremely important to have.

Well yeah obviously that team could contend for a championship. You have three All Stars, a double double guy at center, a extremely solid PG duo and great defense and scoring on the bench. You didn't exactly put together a realistic roster here.

Lakersfan2483
12-08-2009, 03:59 AM
Well yeah obviously that team could contend for a championship. You have three All Stars, a double double guy at center, a extremely solid PG duo and great defense and scoring on the bench. You didn't exactly put together a realistic roster here.

Take Rashard Lewis off of the team and replace him with Luis Scola and the team would still win a title. Take away Kirk Hinrich, Odom and Posey as well.

Is this roster more realistic for you?

Derek Fisher/Daniel Gibson/Shannon Brown
Kobe Bryant/Raja Bell
Carmelo Anthony/Jason Kapono
Luis Scola/Carl Landry/Josh Powell
Emeka Okafor/Nazr Mohamed

I placed shooters around Kobe and Melo and also added big men that can rebound and do the dirty wirk. This team would definitely win a title.

*Keep in mind Chicago had some outstanding teams although they never had a dominant big man. I am modeling my team after the old Bulls teams.

Mid 90's Roster
Harper
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Longley

Bench: Kerr, Wennington, R. Brown, T. Kukoc, Buechler, S. Burrell

Early 90's Roster

Paxson
Jordan
Pippen
H. Grant
B. Cartwright

Bench: Armstrong, Hodges, King, C. Levingston, S. Williams, W. Perdue

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 04:14 AM
^ yes, thats alot more realistic and could certainly challenge for a title.

Super.
12-08-2009, 02:17 PM
Wernt Melo and AI putting up ridiculous amounts of points together?

Fresno
12-08-2009, 02:28 PM
Wernt Melo and AI putting up ridiculous amounts of points together?

Yes. But they werent going anywhere together which is why Denver shipped AI off.

Fresno
12-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Celtics did it no?
Ray Allen and Paul Pierce?

Allen is/has been past his prime for awhile now. He has been a glorified spot shooter his last 5 years, forget the scoring averages. Im talking about 2 current Elite wings.

Pierce is still Elite IMO.

Fresno
12-08-2009, 02:35 PM
Well if we are talking Portland than absolutely Roy/Durant could of worked together. You act like if they had taken Durant they would have nobody down low. They would of still had Lamarcus Aldridge as their post man and already had Joel Pryzbilla, who is a very good defensive/rebounding center.
Aldridge isn't even a top 15 low post guy in the league and he doesn't rebound at a good rate. He also struggles on the defensive end. Thats why they drafted Oden to provide insurance in the post on defense and to make up for Aldridge's struggles on the boards.

Pryzbilla is a good rebounding center but struggles with fouls. Hes a backup for a reason. Do you see him stopping Bynum, Yao, or Amare in the post?

Roy & Durant would both be taking a lot of shots, I think they could compliment each other on offense but they would probably be just a slightly better duo of Gay & Mayo in Memphis. How about the Blazers on defense, Durant is an average defender and so is Roy.

Raph12
12-08-2009, 02:39 PM
Without and allstar PF or C, I think it is near impossible.

Fresno
12-08-2009, 02:47 PM
Take Rashard Lewis off of the team and replace him with Luis Scola and the team would still win a title. Take away Kirk Hinrich, Odom and Posey as well.

Is this roster more realistic for you?

Derek Fisher/Daniel Gibson/Shannon Brown
Kobe Bryant/Raja Bell
Carmelo Anthony/Jason Kapono
Luis Scola/Carl Landry/Josh Powell
Emeka Okafor/Nazr Mohamed

I placed shooters around Kobe and Melo and also added big men that can rebound and do the dirty wirk. This team would definitely win a title.

*Keep in mind Chicago had some outstanding teams although they never had a dominant big man. I am modeling my team after the old Bulls teams.


Chicago didn't need a dominant big man, because Rodman took care of that problem. Rodman controlled the boards and was one of the best defenders in the NBA, there isn't any player in the NBA who can compare to what he did in the league.

Scola & Okafor would be realistic but both guys are not that good. Scola is good when he can spot up after a double team in the post, there isn't anybody defending Emeka Okafor because he can't do much in the post.

Could Kobe & Melo co-exist for an entire season? They worked well together in the Olympics but I dont know how both of their personalities(at this point) could fit together.

Why is Derek Fisher at PG? We all know he can't cover anybody under the age of 35 on defense.

Daniel Gibson is still considered a good spot shooter?

The entire bench would get destroyed once Kobe or Melo left the court, that would be the weakest bench in the league.

You're forgetting that on those Bulls teams you had guys like Kukoc and Harper who could've been All Stars elsewhere, but came off the bench in Chicago. In terms of closest comparisons in present day, it would be like convincing Hedo & Brandon Roy to come off the bench for the sake of winning Titles.

I truly believe in this era of basketball and basketball players it is impossible to assemble a team as dominant as those Bulls teams or even closely comparable. So many people only care about making money and don't care that they're career losers.

Carey
12-08-2009, 02:53 PM
It can be done but these guys have to be versatile scorers who can get to the free throw line, it would help if one had a post game. If you put a good supporting cast around them, good defenders, finishers, a couple spot up shooters then it can be done

FOBolous
12-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Celtics did it no?
Ray Allen and Paul Pierce?

they have KG...arguably one of the best PF of all time. as for Jordan/Pippen...they didn't have Rodman in their earlier years. I think Rodman/Pippen and the bad boy Pistons were the only teams to win the championship without a doimnant force downlow.

Fresno
12-08-2009, 03:00 PM
they have KG...arguably one of the best PF of all time. as for Jordan/Pippen...they didn't have Rodman in their earlier years. I think Rodman/Pippen and the bad boy Pistons were the only teams to win the championship without a doimnant force downlow.

They didn't have Rodman in their earlier years but they became a Dynasty when they added him.

Jordan & Pippen wouldn't have gotten past the emerging Western Conference teams without Rodman.

Raoul Duke
12-08-2009, 03:04 PM
I would argue that the Pistons of 2004 won without a marquee big man. We had two high quality big men, especially on defense, but we didn't have one big that was on par with what I would consider the "marquee" bigs (Duncan, Shaq, KG, etc).

I think a team with two elite swingmen could indeed win. However, it would still depend on their team getting solid play from their bigs, not to mention their PG. Jordan and Pippen had a solid group of bigs on both their three-peat teams, and so did The Bad Boys when they won back-to-back..

Bill Laimbeer anyone?

Turtle55
12-08-2009, 03:06 PM
I think Roy could take on a Pippen type role. In fact he reminds me of Pippen more than any other player in today's NBA. I think Durant is a monster scorer but Roy is more of a do it all player that can also score. There's no doubt in my mind it could work. And as some of the others said when you're talking about two stars it always depends on the players.

FOBolous
12-08-2009, 04:22 PM
They didn't have Rodman in their earlier years but they became a Dynasty when they added him.

Jordan & Pippen wouldn't have gotten past the emerging Western Conference teams without Rodman.

They didn't have Rodman when they won their first 3 championships. Rodman didn't join the Bulls till '95.

King P
12-08-2009, 04:42 PM
I would argue that the Pistons of 2004 won without a marquee big man. We had two high quality big men, especially on defense, but we didn't have one big that was on par with what I would consider the "marquee" bigs (Duncan, Shaq, KG, etc).
Thats all thats needed. Defense wins championships

Raps18-19 Champ
12-08-2009, 05:42 PM
Nice to know your opinion about something that is completely irrelevant to the subject.
Get your video game roster outta here.

He was asking if 2 elite swing men with no all star bing man could win a title.

I just gave a lineup that fits what he said. No need to get worked up about it.

SeoulBeatz
12-09-2009, 01:09 AM
Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still pretty nice when they won in 07 so i think that counts

_KB24_
12-09-2009, 01:30 AM
It depends. Two "SUPERSTAR" swingmen can no way in hell exist in their primes. Not a chance.

kblo247
12-09-2009, 01:39 AM
I think Lebron and Wade could, just not in Miami or Cleveland as the guy who went to join the other would be labeled the sidekick which is an ego thing