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kblo247
12-06-2009, 09:42 PM
Let's be honest there are only three players who should be mentioned in this discussion and be debated. Here are their resumes for the decade.

Kobe - 1 Finals MVP, 4 Championships, 6 Finals Appearances, 1 Missed Postseason

Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
1999-00 21 LAL NBA 22 857 174 394 22 64 95 126 26 98 97 32 32 55 89 465 .442 .344 .754 39.0 21.1 4.5 4.4
2000-01 22 LAL NBA 16 694 168 358 11 34 124 151 29 116 97 25 12 51 53 471 .469 .324 .821 43.4 29.4 7.3 6.1
2001-02 23 LAL NBA 19 833 187 431 22 58 110 145 28 111 87 27 17 54 65 506 .434 .379 .759 43.8 26.6 5.8 4.6
2002-03 24 LAL NBA 12 531 137 317 25 62 86 104 16 61 62 14 1 42 35 385 .432 .403 .827 44.3 32.1 5.1 5.2
2003-04 25 LAL NBA 22 973 190 460 24 97 135 166 18 104 121 42 7 61 59 539 .413 .247 .813 44.2 24.5 4.7 5.5
2005-06 27 LAL NBA 7 314 72 145 14 35 37 48 4 44 36 8 3 33 25 195 .497 .400 .771 44.9 27.9 6.3 5.1
2006-07 28 LAL NBA 5 215 60 130 10 28 34 37 1 26 22 5 2 22 10 164 .462 .357 .919 43.0 32.8 5.2 4.4
2007-08 29 LAL NBA 21 863 222 463 32 106 157 194 18 119 117 35 8 70 59 633 .479 .302 .809 41.1 30.1 5.7 5.6
2008-09 30 LAL NBA 23 940 242 530 37 106 174 197 19 123 126 38 21 59 59 695 .457 .349 .883 40.9 30.2 5.3 5.5

Shaq - 3 Finals MVPs, 4 Championships, 5 Finals Appearances, 1 Missed Postseason

Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
1999-00 27 LAL NBA 23 1000 286 505 0 0 135 296 119 355 71 13 55 56 67 707 .566 .456 43.5 30.7 15.4 3.1
2000-01 28 LAL NBA 16 676 191 344 0 0 105 200 91 247 51 7 38 57 55 487 .555 .525 42.3 30.4 15.4 3.2
2001-02 29 LAL NBA 19 776 203 384 0 0 135 208 67 239 54 10 48 62 62 541 .529 .649 40.8 28.5 12.6 2.8
2002-03 30 LAL NBA 12 481 121 226 0 0 82 132 63 178 44 7 34 35 34 324 .535 .621 40.1 27.0 14.8 3.7
2003-04 31 LAL NBA 22 918 182 307 0 0 109 254 91 291 55 7 61 55 90 473 .593 .429 41.7 21.5 13.2 2.5
2004-05 32 MIA NBA 13 431 101 181 0 0 50 106 19 102 25 5 19 42 52 252 .558 .472 33.2 19.4 7.8 1.9
2005-06 33 MIA NBA 23 759 178 291 0 0 68 182 75 225 39 11 34 85 84 424 .612 .374 33.0 18.4 9.8 1.7
2006-07 34 MIA NBA 4 121 33 59 0 0 9 27 16 34 5 1 6 14 15 75 .559 .333 30.3 18.8 8.5 1.3
2007-08 35 PHO NBA 5 150 22 50 0 0 32 64 13 46 5 5 13 9 21 76 .440 .500 30.0 15.2

Duncan - 2 Finals MVPs, 3 Championships, 3 Finals Appearances, 0 Missed Postseason

Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
2000-01 24 SAS NBA 13 526 120 246 1 1 76 119 54 188 49 14 35 50 43 317 .488 1.000 .639 40.5 24.4 14.5 3.8
2001-02 25 SAS NBA 9 380 82 181 1 3 83 101 28 130 45 6 39 37 22 248 .453 .333 .822 42.2 27.6 14.4 5.0
2002-03 26 SAS NBA 24 1021 218 412 0 7 157 232 96 369 127 15 79 76 78 593 .529 .000 .677 42.5 24.7 15.4 5.3
2003-04 27 SAS NBA 10 405 83 159 0 1 55 87 33 113 32 8 20 42 34 221 .522 .000 .632 40.5 22.1 11.3 3.2
2004-05 28 SAS NBA 23 869 197 425 1 5 147 205 87 286 63 8 52 62 66 542 .464 .200 .717 37.8 23.6 12.4 2.7
2005-06 29 SAS NBA 13 493 121 211 0 2 94 131 33 137 43 11 25 34 50 336 .573 .000 .718 37.9 25.8 10.5 3.3
2006-07 30 SAS NBA 20 736 174 334 0 0 96 149 73 229 65 13 62 59 59 444 .521 .644 36.8 22.2 11.5 3.3
2007-08 31 SAS NBA 17 666 135 301 1 5 72 115 61 247 56 15 35 41 41 343 .449 .200 .626 39.2 20.2 14.5 3.3
2008-09 32 SAS NBA 5 164 41 77 0 0 17 28 12 40 16 3 6 7 11 99 .532 .607 32.8 19.8 8.0 3.2


Playoff Minutes
1 Kobe Bryant 6,221
2 Shaquille O'Neal 5,310
3 Tim Duncan 5,261

Playoff Games Played
3 Kobe Bryant 147
4 Shaquille O'Neal 137
7 Tim Duncan 134

Playoff Points
1 Kobe Bryant 4,053
2 Shaquille O'Neal 3,359
3 Tim Duncan 3,143

Playoff Rebounds
1 Tim Duncan 1,739
2 Shaquille O'Neal 1,717
6 Kobe Bryant 802


Now if I am ranking them I go:
1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq

I place Kobe first because:
- Most finals appearances
- Edge in wins over Duncan in head to playoff series wins with and without homecourt with him being the main weapon against San Antonio; plus he has 1 more ring than Duncan this decade
- The fact that his actual Western Conference playoff numbers (not finals) were on par with Shaq in 01 and surpassed Shaq's their last 3 years together
- Won with 2 different casts
- Has been the most consistent playoff performer
- His 2000 numbers are skewed since he only played 9 minutes in 1 finals game because of injury
- The gap in minutes, points, and games played in the playoffs this decade
- Has numbers that only MJ and West had in the last Finals

I place Duncan second because:
- Is perfect in the Finals
- Has 1 series win against the 3 peat Lakers and 1 against Shaq by himself
- Never repeated which is the only thing that I feel he needs to do
- Technically missed the 1999-2000 postseason but was hurt so it is excusable
- His playoff rebound numbers

I place Shaq third because:
- He was the second guy until the finals came around in his last 4 years in LA
- He was option 2 as a member of the Heat
- He lost to Duncan in a series by himself
- He missed the playoffs this past season
- His playoff (not finals) numbers go on a steady decline throughout the decade
- Is the only one of the 3 to get swept this decade


Where do you guys have them ranked and please explain why

Hawkeye15
12-06-2009, 10:08 PM
Kobe would be #1 from 2000-current. Duncan had numbers/accolades before then, and Shaq was entering his prime late last decade. Kobe owns the 2000-10, no doubt. His career line time perfectly for the decade.

JordansBulls
12-06-2009, 10:14 PM
I think Finals have to be weighed heavily here for playoff performer. Each guy has a case, but it depends on what you value more. Pure dominance, efficiency, accolades, consistentcy, etc.

I personally believe you need all of them. What makes it tough is that Kobe is still near the top while Duncan is still top 5 and Shaq in out near the top 20-30 right now.

Shaq's finals performances are up there. He has I believe 3 finals in the top 15 and 4 in the top 25 since the 1970's.

Duncan has 2 top 12 finals I believe.

Right now, Kobe had a great finals last year, but it hasnt been ranked yet. But what hurts is that 2004 finals which was on the list for one of the worst finals ever for a superstar.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-3


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-8


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-9


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-11-20


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst

ManRam
12-06-2009, 10:22 PM
Shaq's 3 MVPs to Kobe's 1 pretty much sums it up for me. It's tough to decide between the three, and putting Duncan third really, really hurts me...but I'd go Shaq, Kobe, Duncan in that order.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-06-2009, 11:20 PM
^What he said.

ko8e24
12-06-2009, 11:49 PM
Kudos to kblo247 to putting the time into making this. :clap:


Personally, its really hard to pick one player over the other to be honest. Like regular season wise, it's definitely Kobe above the other 2 in Shaq & Duncan. However, each superstar has had his own big big peaks and then very very low valleys, so its hard to pick one over the other or the other.

So I've looked over all the stats, all the accomplishments, all the head-to-head matchups, and really tried to think about it long and hard, and I've come up with this conclusion.


Shaq-Kobe-Duncan, 3-way tie for me yo.

3 of the Top 10 players in NBA History right there.

The Big Diesel-The Black Mamba-The Big Fundamental

sofargone
12-06-2009, 11:51 PM
Shaq's 3 MVPs to Kobe's 1 pretty much sums it up for me. It's tough to decide between the three, and putting Duncan third really, really hurts me...but I'd go Shaq, Kobe, Duncan in that order.
this

_KB24_
12-07-2009, 12:01 AM
I'm going to wait until after this year to answer it. I can't honestly come to a consensus. If it's regular season, I have to go Kobe. If it is the playoffs, I give the edge to Timmy D. If it is a combination, I would give it to Shaq for his early DOMINANCE. If Kobe secures his 5th ring this year, then I would go with him. But Duncan is probably the player who elevates his game the most come playoff time. I mean this guy has hit some of the most amazing shots I have ever seen, shots that you would never expect for a guy of his size to make.......

1. Shot against the Suns to send it to OT :)

2. The fade-away over Shaq and Kobe from the wrong foot to take the lead only to have Fish make a even more miraculous shot!

runforrestrunx9
12-07-2009, 12:24 AM
shaq, kobe, duncan... wade would be in the discussion if he was in more than 1 finals

Raph12
12-07-2009, 12:40 AM
Shaq, Duncan and then Kobe.

If you go back before that, then Duncan gets the Top spot.

madiaz3
12-07-2009, 01:25 AM
Kobe's 2004 finals weren't THAT bad when you consider his game 2 performance aka their only win. 33 pts .514 and the game tier to win in OT. but otherwise yeah, bad series..

kblo247
12-07-2009, 01:26 AM
I'm going to wait until after this year to answer it. I can't honestly come to a consensus. If it's regular season, I have to go Kobe. If it is the playoffs, I give the edge to Timmy D. If it is a combination, I would give it to Shaq for his early DOMINANCE. If Kobe secures his 5th ring this year, then I would go with him. But Duncan is probably the player who elevates his game the most come playoff time. I mean this guy has hit some of the most amazing shots I have ever seen, shots that you would never expect for a guy of his size to make.......

1. Shot against the Suns to send it to OT :)

2. The fade-away over Shaq and Kobe from the wrong foot to take the lead only to have Fish make a even more miraculous shot!

This season marks a new decade though :p

B.JenningsMVP
12-07-2009, 02:24 AM
k0be bean

Lakersfan2483
12-07-2009, 02:31 AM
It's hard to say which guy has been the best, if you are looking for consistency/most finals appearances from 2000-10 then Kobe's your man. However, O'neal owns the most finals mvps and right behind him is Duncan.

kArSoN RyDaH
12-07-2009, 04:38 AM
kobes numbers are the only one of the 3 that dont decline. they increasee...so therefore goin wit ma boi KO BE!!!

kblo247
12-07-2009, 05:12 AM
It's hard to say which guy has been the best, if you are looking for consistency/most finals appearances from 2000-10 then Kobe's your man. However, O'neal owns the most finals mvps and right behind him is Duncan.

That was the main hang up for me

Consistency v Dominance

Shaq was dominant but Phil saved that dominance for when it mattered after their first title to maximize him and to another degree I think appease Kobe as well since he got the glory of running through the west.

Duncan has been consistent this decade but he has taken many more *** kickings from them than he has given.

Shaq's numbers steadily fell off, while Duncan's kind of stayed in the same range, and Kobe's stayed the most reliable every postseason.

I'll stick with what I put but I just was interested in seeing where everyone goes.

Too bad we couldn't have a poll that went (my bad for not thinking about it)

Kobe, Duncan, Shaq
Kobe, Shaq, Duncan
Shaq, Kobe, Duncan
Shaq, Duncan, Kobe
Duncan, Shaq, Kobe
Duncan, Kobe, Shaq

JordansBulls
12-07-2009, 05:47 PM
This year will pretty much define who it is.

superkegger
12-07-2009, 06:14 PM
This year will pretty much define who it is.

Unless its a Boston-Denver Finals...

JordansBulls
12-07-2009, 10:27 PM
Unless its a Boston-Denver Finals...

True!!

Pierzynski4Prez
12-07-2009, 10:38 PM
Or a NJ-MIN finals

kblo247
12-07-2009, 10:59 PM
This year will pretty much define who it is.

This season = beginning of a new decade though remember

No cop outs ;)

kblo247
12-07-2009, 11:00 PM
Or a NJ-MIN finals

You laugh, but I advocate eliminating summer league and the lottery drawing.

Make the teams who missed the playoffs play a NIT like Tourney for the 14 lottery picks after the Finals are over :D

evadatam5150
12-08-2009, 12:45 AM
Kobe would be #1 from 2000-current. Duncan had numbers/accolades before then, and Shaq was entering his prime late last decade. Kobe owns the 2000-10, no doubt. His career line time perfectly for the decade.

Wouldn't that be considered a decade, hence *Playoff Performer of the Decade*.. ;)

Personally I think it's Kobe or Shaq as both have had pretty good runs..

koreancabbage
12-08-2009, 12:49 AM
You laugh, but I advocate eliminating summer league and the lottery drawing.

Make the teams who missed the playoffs play a NIT like Tourney for the 14 lottery picks after the Finals are over :D

sounds good to me lol, i don't believe in tanking, not fair to the fans and not fair to the players on the team- you still gotta fight for the #1 draft pick

flea
12-08-2009, 12:52 AM
Give me Duncan everyday. Once Lakers fans go away and the 2000s drift into history everyone will begin to appreciate what he did with a couple of soft guards and Bruce Bowen. The guy won 4 championships all while he was "the guy", and without another superstar (unless you count an old Robinson, and that was just 1/4). Plus 2003 was just sick. And he's got 3 Finals MVPs (in addition to gifting Tony Parker 1).

Young Kobe needed Shaq, Shaq needed Kobe and Wade, and Duncan just needed a good coach and good role players.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the Robinson title didn't count since it wasn't in this decade. Still stand by all I said.

kblo247
12-08-2009, 12:57 AM
Give me Duncan everyday. Once Lakers fans go away and the 2000s drift into history everyone will begin to appreciate what he did with a couple of soft guards and Bruce Bowen. The guy won 4 championships all while he was "the guy", and without another superstar (unless you count an old Robinson, and that was just 1/4). Plus 2003 was just sick. And he's got 3 Finals MVPs (in addition to gifting Tony Parker 1).

Young Kobe needed Shaq, Shaq needed Kobe and Wade, and Duncan just needed a good coach and good role players.

Duncan won 3 titles this decade and for the last 1, the man (Finals MVP wise) was Tony.

I still have no problem with the logic though but I'm just saying

ARMIN12NBA
12-08-2009, 01:18 AM
Kobe's 2004 finals weren't THAT bad when you consider his game 2 performance aka their only win. 33 pts .514 and the game tier to win in OT. but otherwise yeah, bad series..

True. Plus, Shaq just decided to show up and the offense was completely out of sync. Not to mention the physical play that was allowed to Hamilton and Prince.

nipo10847
12-08-2009, 01:26 AM
Shaq> Duncan> Kobe. Why??? Shaq and Duncan each has 3 final mvps. That's what it counts for and this is the most important thing. Every year there are two teams play in the final, and guess what? Yes, people do remember and count the winner and the best player aka mvp who made it possible. Therefore, Kobe needs two more final mvp's to equal them and 3 more to be the #1. Simple and the most reasonable calculation. PERIOD.

ARMIN12NBA
12-08-2009, 01:30 AM
Shaq> Duncan> Kobe. Why??? Shaq and Duncan each has 3 final mvps. That's what it counts for and this is the most important thing. Every year there are two teams play in the final, and guess what? Yes, people do remember and count the winner and the best player aka mvp who made it possible. Therefore, Kobe needs two more final mvp's to equal them and 3 more to be the #1. Simple and the most reasonable calculation. PERIOD.

Duncan had 2 Finals MVP awards.

flea
12-08-2009, 01:33 AM
He got robbed in 2007.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2009, 01:34 AM
Wouldn't that be considered a decade, hence *Playoff Performer of the Decade*.. ;)

Personally I think it's Kobe or Shaq as both have had pretty good runs..

your common sense is astounding

Hawkeye15
12-08-2009, 01:36 AM
True. Plus, Shaq just decided to show up and the offense was completely out of sync. Not to mention the physical play that was allowed to Hamilton and Prince.

once the Lakers came out of the west that year, they figured they would steam roll thru. Kobe, and their entire team had a bad series. Detroit had something to do with that.

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 01:42 AM
Shaq, definently. He has the same amount of Championships as Kobe and he was always the better more dominant player when the two played together. I don't even see how this is even a question.

RocketsRule
12-08-2009, 01:46 AM
Shaq, definently. He has the same amount of Championships as Kobe and he was always the better more dominant player when the two played together. I don't even see how this is even a question.

While I do agree, his recent drop-off of play these last 3-4 years is why this is up for debate.

ARMIN12NBA
12-08-2009, 01:49 AM
Shaq, definently. He has the same amount of Championships as Kobe and he was always the better more dominant player when the two played together. I don't even see how this is even a question.

He was the more dominant player, but I don't think he was the better player. Even Shaq was saying so during the Lakers 2001 playoff run.

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 01:54 AM
While I do agree, his recent drop-off of play these last 3-4 years is why this is up for debate.

We are talking about the playoffs, and what matters most is Wins and Losses. He has the same amount of titles as Kobe and when they played together he was more dominant than Kobe. He wasn't himself when he won a title with Miami but he was still an All Star.


He was the more dominant player, but I don't think he was the better player. Even Shaq was saying so during the Lakers 2001 playoff run.

How was he not? He dominated the games more, he had better stats, he was a absolute nightmare for any team... Shaq was just doing the same thing he did to Wade, give the guy props. Nobody actually believed that it was Kobe who was the more important player between the two.

I think it was pretty damn apparent when they traded Shaq and dropped to the bottom of the league who was the most important player on the team.

Even when they lost to Detroit in the Finals, Shaq was the only Laker that came to play. He was great, Kobe was awful.

ARMIN12NBA
12-08-2009, 02:06 AM
How was he not? He dominated the games more

In what aspect? One could easily argue that Kobe dominated the most important time of the game, which was the 4th quarter (crunch time). This is a fact and the compromise laid out between the two superstars. Shaq dominated the first three and when he became a liability due to his FT shooting and the new zone rule implementations, Kobe would take over and dominate the fourth quarter.


, he had better stats,

Not necessarily. In 2001, 2003, and 2004, Kobe was the better player in terms of statistics for most of the playoffs. Even if statistics didn't show it completely in 2003 or 2004 (which, IIRC, it did), the mere fact that watching the games highlighted so blatantly that Shaq was overweight and bogged up the offense/played horrible defense was enough for anybody to say that Kobe was by far the better and more dominant player between the two in those seasons.


he was a absolute nightmare for any team...

So was Kobe. At the time, many scouts and FO executives believed that Kobe was as scary, if not scarier, a matchup. Heck, even when Shaq was quietly asking for Kobe or himself to be traded during 2001, the Lakers FO told Shaq that it would be him that would be gone before Kobe.


Shaq was just doing the same thing he did to Wade, give the guy props. Nobody actually believed that it was Kobe who was the more important player between the two.

They were of the same importance, especially when you consider the incredible impact Kobe made for the Lakers in crunch time. THAT is why the Lakers couldn't advance before Kobe matured. They had no guy in the clutch.


I think it was pretty damn apparent when they traded Shaq and dropped to the bottom of the league who was the most important player on the team.

Not really. They dropped to what, 6th place, before Kobe went down with injury. Not to mention they ALREADY had no bench and lost Payton, Malone, Fisher, etc. They had a god awful squad around Kobe with a huge distraction in Rudy T retiring and having problems.

No way you can justify that logic when the team was just plan awful. What if (which we will never know) you replaced Kobe with Shaq and surrounded him with that awful situation, 15 games lost due to injury, and that supporting cast? Lets just say I have a fair inkling that the Lakers don't make the playoffs with the Big Diesal sans Kobe.


Even when they lost to Detroit in the Finals, Shaq was the only Laker that came to play. He was great, Kobe was awful.

Depends on what you consider great. Shaq finally came to play and be with the team, which completely and utterly screwed up their chemistry. All of a sudden, Shaq started demanding more shots (of course, he couldn't let Kobe have the continued glory he was having) and became a lazy bum defensively (unfair, he was already a lazy bum).

kblo247
12-08-2009, 02:11 AM
How was he not? He dominated the games more, he had better stats, he was a absolute nightmare for any team... Shaq was just doing the same thing he did to Wade, give the guy props. Nobody actually believed that it was Kobe who was the more important player between the two.

I think it was pretty damn apparent when they traded Shaq and dropped to the bottom of the league who was the most important player on the team.

Even when they lost to Detroit in the Finals, Shaq was the only Laker that came to play. He was great, Kobe was awful.

Shaq didn't dominate the Western Playoffs from 2001-2004 stats wise like Kobe did. Even Phil admitted in his book that they had Kobe dominate the West so Shaq could dominate the Finals.

You also can't say it was pretty apparent when Kobe didn't have the same team. 2005 was ****ed from the beginning. George and Divac missed almost all the year. Malone went out hunting Mexican girls. Grant, Odom, and Mihm got hurt. Luke was placed in Rudy's dog house and Rush got traded for scraps. Butler and Kobe played well together, but Kobe got hurt and this his wife had a miscarriage. Rudy T quit half way through the year while the team had a winning record. That whole year was just meh.

You are right, that Shaq had the best Finals numbers because Shaq got more touches in that Finals just like every Finals since 01 whereas Kobe got all the touches and was the #1 option throughout the Western Playoffs for their last 4 years together. No denying it, Kobe was awful but you have to admit the game we won was because of Kobe and that Shaq while he played well offensively didn't rebound or defend well at all like throughout the whole playoffs that year where Malone was the one who did the job on Yao, KG, and Duncan.

Do you not remember who was the best player in 04 against San Antonio, Minny, and Houston, and can you ignore that Shaq was the second best big on what was supposed to be his team behind Malone (much like Payton sucked *** and couldn't stand Fisher outplaying him)?

HandslikeCarter
12-08-2009, 02:12 AM
Troy Hudson went Bananas. I know its a collective thing, but He ******* the Twolves for years after that by getting a big contract. And then he started to Rap and man why why did you have to go off in the playoffs. I say Kobe for last year, both Shaq needs a Kobe like player and Duncan has All Stars all around him.

kblo247
12-08-2009, 02:19 AM
Troy Hudson went Bananas. I know its a collective thing, but He ******* the Twolves for years after that by getting a big contract. And then he started to Rap and man why why did you have to go off in the playoffs. I say Kobe for last year, both Shaq needs a Kobe like player and Duncan has All Stars all around him.

:mad: I'm tired of Fish catching **** for that as well as Bibby.

Shaq never stepped out or showed on a screen, which got us eliminated in that second round in 03 with Parker having a field day.

Fish isn't the Glove, but a Suns and Heat fan know what I am talking about when I say a PG is on an island when Shaq's man sets a screen and if they aren't good defensively they will give up 40.

It wasn't like he suddenly got faster in 04; Malone challenged the damn pick and rolls and without him Sheed ripped us.

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 03:15 AM
I'm not even gonna argue this, Shaq always was the more dominant player of the two, which I think is pretty freakin obvious by the fact it was always him winning Finals MVPs, not Kobe. The year they didn't win the title and made the finals Kobe playing horrible was a big part of that.

To me its a truly ignorant and homeristic statement to say Shaq got "selfish" in the 2004 Finals against Detroit when he only took 84 total shots in the series and made 53 of them (63% shooting) while Kobe took 113 total shots and only made 34 of them (30% shooting)

Obviously Shaq wasn't NEARLY selfish enough since Kobe couldnt hit anything to save his life and Shaq was killing the Pistons frontcourt.

Kobe is a fantastic player and this is taking nothing away from Kobe, but SHAQ was the more important piece on those teams and I'd like to hear anyone who isn't a Lakers fan disagree with me. I understand its SO SO hard for Laker fans to look past their Kobe love and Shaq hate to admit it but cmon.... the proof is right in front of your face.

kArSoN RyDaH
12-08-2009, 05:07 AM
okay KOBES STATS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT INCREASE. does anyone understand this? his performances each season get better as time goes on. notice shaqs and duncans. they decrease. are you guys blind? its kobe

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 10:19 AM
okay KOBES STATS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT INCREASE. does anyone understand this? his performances each season get better as time goes on. notice shaqs and duncans. they decrease. are you guys blind? its kobe

Horrible arguement. His stats increase because Shaq is gone and he is the true focal point. Really all you did is hurt your arguement there.

GAWDtv
12-08-2009, 02:53 PM
If you go by #'s, AI is not on the most games list, or most minutes list, but he is on the most points list, most steals list for the decade, just an interesting note.

b_rad23
12-08-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm not even gonna argue this, Shaq always was the more dominant player of the two, which I think is pretty freakin obvious by the fact it was always him winning Finals MVPs, not Kobe. The year they didn't win the title and made the finals Kobe playing horrible was a big part of that.

To me its a truly ignorant and homeristic statement to say Shaq got "selfish" in the 2004 Finals against Detroit when he only took 84 total shots in the series and made 53 of them (63% shooting) while Kobe took 113 total shots and only made 34 of them (30% shooting)

Obviously Shaq wasn't NEARLY selfish enough since Kobe couldnt hit anything to save his life and Shaq was killing the Pistons frontcourt.

Kobe is a fantastic player and this is taking nothing away from Kobe, but SHAQ was the more important piece on those teams and I'd like to hear anyone who isn't a Lakers fan disagree with me. I understand its SO SO hard for Laker fans to look past their Kobe love and Shaq hate to admit it but cmon.... the proof is right in front of your face.

:clap::clap:


okay KOBES STATS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT INCREASE. does anyone understand this? his performances each season get better as time goes on. notice shaqs and duncans. they decrease. are you guys blind? its kobe


Horrible arguement. His stats increase because Shaq is gone and he is the true focal point. Really all you did is hurt your arguement there.

That and please take a look at their ages people, it's not rocket science.

JayAllDay
12-08-2009, 04:01 PM
Big shot Bob?

haha jk

I would go Shaq - Kobe- Duncan because I think Shaq was THE most dominant player when he was in his prime.

tdunk21
12-08-2009, 04:07 PM
shaq
duncan
kobe...

tdunk21
12-08-2009, 04:10 PM
some guys have rated kobe better than timmy...seriously how can u rate someone who has missd 1 playoff....timmy has 2 back to back MVP's, 3 final MVP's, never missed playoffs and the list goes on......

kblo247
12-08-2009, 06:54 PM
some guys have rated kobe better than timmy...seriously how can u rate someone who has missd 1 playoff....timmy has 2 back to back MVP's, 3 final MVP's, never missed playoffs and the list goes on......

regular MVPs don't count

Duncan has 2 finals MVPs this decade
4 series losses to Kobe with and w/o hca and only 1 series win (Kobe one the only one w/o Shaq)
Kobe had the better stats against the Spurs in all their series in the playoffs
Kobe has 1 more ring (3 more finals appearances) as well as the individual playoff numbers favor him

The only problem I have ever had with him is his inability to repeat but I still put him second over Shaq because of the decline in Shaq's numbers, the missed postseason, and Shaq being the only one of them to be swept in the playoffs.

Big Game Son
12-08-2009, 06:57 PM
T-Mac. He puts on a good crying, arm in a sling performance off the court every april.

bigsams50
12-08-2009, 06:59 PM
regular MVPs don't count

Duncan has 2 finals MVPs this decade
4 series losses to Kobe with and w/o hca and only 1 series win (Kobe one the only one w/o Shaq)
Kobe had the better stats against the Spurs in all their series in the playoffs
Kobe has 1 more ring (3 more finals appearances) as well as the individual playoff numbers favor him

The only problem I have ever had with him is his inability to repeat but I still put him second over Shaq because of the decline in Shaq's numbers, the missed postseason, and Shaq being the only one of them to be swept in the playoffs.

They have the same amount of rings.

BlondeBomber41
12-08-2009, 07:03 PM
regular MVPs don't count

Duncan has 2 finals MVPs this decade
4 series losses to Kobe with and w/o hca and only 1 series win (Kobe one the only one w/o Shaq)
Kobe had the better stats against the Spurs in all their series in the playoffs
Kobe has 1 more ring (3 more finals appearances) as well as the individual playoff numbers favor him

The only problem I have ever had with him is his inability to repeat but I still put him second over Shaq because of the decline in Shaq's numbers, the missed postseason, and Shaq being the only one of them to be swept in the playoffs.

So you put Kobe first and Shaq third, even when every arguement in the world points to Shaq as being #1? You are just gonna totally ignore all the points I made in response to your post earlier? Got ya.

TheKing23
12-08-2009, 07:26 PM
1) Shaquille O'Neal
2) Tim Duncan
3) Kobe Bryant

There is no legitimate reason for Kobe being first other than someone being permanently attached to his nutsack...

If we go on numbers alone, 2 extra finals MVP's is much better than one extra finals appearance, so Shaq gets the nod over Kobe for that reason. I would also put Duncan ahead of Kobe (but only slightly) due to the fact he was the main guy for all three of his titles (same for Shaq, but not in Miami) whereas Kobe was the top dog for only one of his titles. The fact that Tim Duncan has led his team to be a contender throughout the ENTIRE decade, whereas Kobe's Lakers didn't contend during the time between Shaq and Gasol also leads me to put TD ahead of Kobe.

kblo247
12-08-2009, 07:38 PM
They have the same amount of rings.

This decade

The decade begins with the Lakers first title and ends with their last one.

The Spurs first title was the end of the last decade and this season is the start of a new one so Tim has 3 titles.

kblo247
12-08-2009, 07:46 PM
So you put Kobe first and Shaq third, even when every arguement in the world points to Shaq as being #1? You are just gonna totally ignore all the points I made in response to your post earlier? Got ya.

You ignored the whole playoffs as whole for their last 4 years together, including what their own coach at the time admitted in the same book that he bashed Kobe for not massaging Shaq's ego in.

Kobe got them through the West and Shaq's touches increased in the Finals every year.

The same happened in 04; Kobe shot more but the offense was re-routed through Shaq instead of the Kobe/Malone 2 man game that got them there. Shaq did nothing through the first three rounds of the playoffs in 01, 02, 04, and the 2 rounds in 03 that show that he was the better player offensively or defensively. Malone and Payton both called Shaq out on sandbagging in 04, Phil made the public proclamation that Kobe had to lead them to the playoffs in 03, and Shaq made a verbal jab at them for it.

Round by round Kobe dominated the west for their last 4 years together while defending the best perimeter guy on the other team and facilitating the triangle, and to top it off he beat Duncan's Spurs once again solo.

For all the stuff he gets Duncan has lost more in the second round than Kobe by a mile and not even come close to winning titles in back to back years. The Spurs win and then they fall off instead of getting back to the finals (same routine for 10 years).

You keep on saying well Kobe didn't contend for years without Shaq (3 years) but you ignore that Shaq spent 3 years not contending without Kobe (07, 08, 09) and that Kobe never got swept at all, let alone by a team who his squad was better than (Bulls).

kArSoN RyDaH
12-08-2009, 08:42 PM
since everyone always wants to refer to stats why not look at how kobes stats are the only ones increasing? for like the 2nd or 3rd time im saying it. the argument is clear. kobe 1 tim 2 shaq 3. flat out.

BlondeBomber41
12-09-2009, 01:21 AM
You ignored the whole playoffs as whole for their last 4 years together, including what their own coach at the time admitted in the same book that he bashed Kobe for not massaging Shaq's ego in.

Kobe got them through the West and Shaq's touches increased in the Finals every year.

The same happened in 04; Kobe shot more but the offense was re-routed through Shaq instead of the Kobe/Malone 2 man game that got them there. Shaq did nothing through the first three rounds of the playoffs in 01, 02, 04, and the 2 rounds in 03 that show that he was the better player offensively or defensively. Malone and Payton both called Shaq out on sandbagging in 04, Phil made the public proclamation that Kobe had to lead them to the playoffs in 03, and Shaq made a verbal jab at them for it.

Round by round Kobe dominated the west for their last 4 years together while defending the best perimeter guy on the other team and facilitating the triangle, and to top it off he beat Duncan's Spurs once again solo.

For all the stuff he gets Duncan has lost more in the second round than Kobe by a mile and not even come close to winning titles in back to back years. The Spurs win and then they fall off instead of getting back to the finals (same routine for 10 years).

You keep on saying well Kobe didn't contend for years without Shaq (3 years) but you ignore that Shaq spent 3 years not contending without Kobe (07, 08, 09) and that Kobe never got swept at all, let alone by a team who his squad was better than (Bulls).

Shaq was starting to slow down in that Bulls series to the player he is now, but we are talking about the best player of the decade and the fact that he was so extremely dominant for the first 7 years or so wipes out.

I can almost GUARANTEE if I went and looked up how many shots were taken by Kobe compared to Shaq in the playoffs every year Kobe would comfortably beat out Shaq, so your arguement about Shaq being selfish is absolutely absurd.

He did more while shooting less, anchored the defense and was the consensus MVP from anyone who isn't a current Lakers homer. He was great for the Lakers even when Kobe wasn't.

Like I said, find ONE non Laker fan that actually believes that Shaq wasn't the better player and the more important/dominant player. ONE.

kblo247
12-09-2009, 01:50 AM
Shaq was starting to slow down in that Bulls series to the player he is now, but we are talking about the best player of the decade and the fact that he was so extremely dominant for the first 7 years or so wipes out.

I can almost GUARANTEE if I went and looked up how many shots were taken by Kobe compared to Shaq in the playoffs every year Kobe would comfortably beat out Shaq, so your arguement about Shaq being selfish is absolutely absurd.

He did more while shooting less, anchored the defense and was the consensus MVP from anyone who isn't a current Lakers homer. He was great for the Lakers even when Kobe wasn't.

Like I said, find ONE non Laker fan that actually believes that Shaq wasn't the better player and the more important/dominant player. ONE.

Did you watch the playoffs that from 2001 on, especially in 03 and 04?

You can ask anyone who watched those series or even read Phil's book to tell you that.

Where is JB when you need an opinion :p

BlondeBomber41
12-09-2009, 02:11 AM
Did you watch the playoffs that from 2001 on, especially in 03 and 04?

You can ask anyone who watched those series or even read Phil's book to tell you that.

Where is JB when you need an opinion :p

Yeah, I watched every year and I saw Shaq absolutely terrorizing anyone they played.

I saw the Nets play the Lakers and Shaq whooped their *** so bad they went and traded for Dikembe Mutombo that offseason hoping that he would help if they faced again.... which he didn't really.

Lets go over the point totals in the 2001 NBA Finals...

Shaq - 44, 28, 32, 34, 29
Kobe - 15, 31, 30, 19, 26

Not only did Shaq outperform Kobe, but he averaged 16 rebounds in the series. Kobe put up some good scoring numbers on much worse shooting and just all in all didn't have the same impact as Shaq. A great one yes, but he was no Shaq.

The Nets series I dont even need to go into detail on, Shaq punked the Nets both years and there was no more important player in those series than Shaq. There was even a stat that came out awhile back that showed that the Nets had been the best team in the league at holding Kobe down and he for his career had shot under 40% against them. I can't find a page to look up the stats from those series but Shaq was very clearly the biggest problems the Nets had in the two series.

Then when they got to the Finals one more time Kobe laid an egg while Shaq was absolutely dominant, supported by the insane numbers I have previously posted.

Then Shaq went to a different team and took a different guard to the NBA Finals. His stats weren't what they use to be, but they didn't have to be because the refs called a foul everytime Dwyane Wade touched the ball.

Lakers fans arguements for Kobe are so funny saying Shaq was selfish and Kobe was the real go to guy. Shaq is the reason you even stood a chance! Do you so easily forget how he absolutely dominated teams? Like not good games, but just physically dominated and frustrated them? Got their bigs into foul trouble and made the other team play soft? To think that Kobe was the more important player is absolutely nuts. He wasn't.

kblo247
12-09-2009, 02:29 AM
What part of Shaq's job was to dominate the finals and Kobe the western playoffs isn't seeping into that skull?

I never said Shaq wasn't dominate in the finals according to the game plan during the 3 peat and the 2000 playoffs as a whole. I said Kobe dominated the 01-04 playoffs out west to conserve Shaq so your argument still isn't going against my main point. I even pointed out in my initial post that I leaned toward consistency over dominance.

So why aren't you comprehending that?

BlondeBomber41
12-09-2009, 03:46 AM
What part of Shaq's job was to dominate the finals and Kobe the western playoffs isn't seeping into that skull?

I never said Shaq wasn't dominate in the finals according to the game plan during the 3 peat and the 2000 playoffs as a whole. I said Kobe dominated the 01-04 playoffs out west to conserve Shaq so your argument still isn't going against my main point. I even pointed out in my initial post that I leaned toward consistency over dominance.

So why aren't you comprehending that?

Shaq was awesome in the entire playoffs every year so the point you are trying to make he averaged over 30 and 15 a game in the ENTIRE playoffs during the first two title runs and 29/13 when they won their third championship.

So basically you are trying to convince me that even though Shaq was awesome in the west playoffs as well that Kobe was actually better and that should mean more than the fact that Shaq was clearly the more dominant player when the NBA Finals rolled around? Even though Shaq averaged more PPG every single playoff year, was pulling down 15 boards a game, blocking three shots a game and shooting 60% from the field while Kobe had one year of 47% FG in the playoffs but otherwise always shot a mediocre number... you are seriously trying to argue that?

Shaq never at any point shot the ball more than Kobe did, scored more, shot over 20% better from the field, was the defensive anchor, rebounded like crazy, gave the other team more fits than arguably any player in league history.... but Kobe was the better player.

Bull ****

Lakersfan2483
12-09-2009, 04:22 AM
Shaq was awesome in the entire playoffs every year so the point you are trying to make he averaged over 30 and 15 a game in the ENTIRE playoffs during the first two title runs and 29/13 when they won their third championship.

So basically you are trying to convince me that even though Shaq was awesome in the west playoffs as well that Kobe was actually better and that should mean more than the fact that Shaq was clearly the more dominant player when the NBA Finals rolled around? Even though Shaq averaged more PPG every single playoff year, was pulling down 15 boards a game, blocking three shots a game and shooting 60% from the field while Kobe had one year of 47% FG in the playoffs but otherwise always shot a mediocre number... you are seriously trying to argue that?

Shaq never at any point shot the ball more than Kobe did, scored more, shot over 20% better from the field, was the defensive anchor, rebounded like crazy, gave the other team more fits than arguably any player in league history.... but Kobe was the better player.

Bull ****

He was just as good, go reference his impact/numbers against Sac, Portland, and San Antonio (Real competition). All of those teams were big time, contending teams and Kobe was just as important to the success of the team as Shaq. In fact, Kobe's numbers and impact were better against the Spurs and we all know just how great those Spurs teams were (See Kobe's numbers vs San Antonio in 01, 03, 04 vs O'neals in 01, 03, 04).

All of the teams the Lakers met in the finals save for Detroit, were weak competition and O'neal feasted on those teams. It would have been foolish for the Lakers as a team to not go to Shaq against New Jersey, Philly and Indiana as they didn't have big time low post players to pose a legit threat to Shaq's dominance. Kobe was more of a fascilitator against those weak East teams and rightfully so. O'neal had a major advantage and LA capitalized on that.

*BTW, in an earlier post, you made the claim that Bryant struggled against the Nets, which is false. During the NBA finals, he shot 52 pct. from the field, 54 pct from the 3point line, and avg. 27 ppg, 6 rpg, and 5apg.

Pornstar86
12-09-2009, 04:27 AM
well lets see...Shaq got 3 MVP's while with Kobe, and Kobe only got 1...this shows that Shaq was more important than Kobe when the Lakers won...So Shaq having 4 championships is equal with Kobe, but Kobe won 3 of those with Shaq, and Shaq was the MVP for all of them...so Shaq is the best playoff player of the last decade

Lakersfan2483
12-09-2009, 04:30 AM
You ignored the whole playoffs as whole for their last 4 years together, including what their own coach at the time admitted in the same book that he bashed Kobe for not massaging Shaq's ego in.

Kobe got them through the West and Shaq's touches increased in the Finals every year.

The same happened in 04; Kobe shot more but the offense was re-routed through Shaq instead of the Kobe/Malone 2 man game that got them there. Shaq did nothing through the first three rounds of the playoffs in 01, 02, 04, and the 2 rounds in 03 that show that he was the better player offensively or defensively. Malone and Payton both called Shaq out on sandbagging in 04, Phil made the public proclamation that Kobe had to lead them to the playoffs in 03, and Shaq made a verbal jab at them for it.

Round by round Kobe dominated the west for their last 4 years together while defending the best perimeter guy on the other team and facilitating the triangle, and to top it off he beat Duncan's Spurs once again solo.

For all the stuff he gets Duncan has lost more in the second round than Kobe by a mile and not even come close to winning titles in back to back years. The Spurs win and then they fall off instead of getting back to the finals (same routine for 10 years).

You keep on saying well Kobe didn't contend for years without Shaq (3 years) but you ignore that Shaq spent 3 years not contending without Kobe (07, 08, 09) and that Kobe never got swept at all, let alone by a team who his squad was better than (Bulls).

:clap:

BlondeBomber41
12-09-2009, 10:02 AM
You Laker fans are unreal... I know you love Kobe and all but when the proof is staring you right in the face and every piece of evidence goes against you than its time to just give up.... but I guess loving Kobe is a 24/7 job.

Ishkabibble
12-09-2009, 10:42 AM
Kobe went along for the ride w/ Shaq for three Laker championships early on this decade. That was evident to anyone paying attention. Shaq was the reason they won those rings, period. And if Garnett doesn't get injured last season Kobe's not even part of this discussion.

fresh prince
12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Kobe went along for the ride w/ Shaq for three Laker championships early on this decade. That was evident to anyone paying attention. Shaq was the reason they won those rings, period. And if Garnett doesn't get injured last season Kobe's not even part of this discussion.

If Halloween was on December 22nd and Batman was sugar every one would be aliens and get married on Valentines day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anAD4Wp0DgA

Don't be dorky "if" guy..its not a good look

kblo247
12-09-2009, 08:22 PM
You Laker fans are unreal... I know you love Kobe and all but when the proof is staring you right in the face and every piece of evidence goes against you than its time to just give up.... but I guess loving Kobe is a 24/7 job.

I get it, you are still mad to this day about this:

Kobe - 62 in 33 minutes
Mavs - 61 in 36 minutes

or maybe this:

Kobe has never gotten beat by an 8th seed or basically swept in the finals while up 0-2

BlondeBomber41
12-09-2009, 08:29 PM
I get it, you are still mad to this day about this:

Kobe - 62 in 33 minutes
Mavs - 61 in 36 minutes

or maybe this:

Kobe has never gotten beat by an 8th seed or basically swept in the finals while up 0-2

This season is what matters currently, and its Mavs 1, Lakers 0.

Pretty childish and stupid way to respond though btw, why can't you just admit what every non Laker fan already knows? Shaq was better.

kArSoN RyDaH
12-10-2009, 12:37 AM
This season is what matters currently, and its Mavs 1, Lakers 0.

Pretty childish and stupid way to respond though btw, why can't you just admit what every non Laker fan already knows? Shaq was better.

wait. your bragging over a win that you had over the lakers when our starting center/pf was injured? hahahahahahaha. you might as well savor that one while it lasts buddy. :facepalm:

BlondeBomber41
12-10-2009, 01:38 AM
wait. your bragging over a win that you had over the lakers when our starting center/pf was injured? hahahahahahaha. you might as well savor that one while it lasts buddy. :facepalm:

Your starting C/PF weren't injured, just Gasol was. Bynum played. Nice memory.

Josh Howard was injured, and it was on the road. When Gasol is out you have Lamar Odom to pick up the slack, we have Quinton Ross to replace Howard. Nice try though.

JordansBulls
12-25-2009, 04:38 PM
You keep on saying well Kobe didn't contend for years without Shaq (3 years) but you ignore that Shaq spent 3 years not contending without Kobe (07, 08, 09) and that Kobe never got swept at all, let alone by a team who his squad was better than (Bulls).

The Bulls were better than the Heat in 2007, we had HCA that series.

R. Johnson#3
12-25-2009, 04:46 PM
Robert Horry!