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JordansBulls
12-01-2009, 02:19 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

sofargone
12-01-2009, 02:21 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Kobe
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Lebron
Garnett
Tim Duncan
Chris Paul
Jerry West
Dr J
Dwight

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 02:30 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Duncan
Lebron
Garnett
Kobe
O
Howard
CP3
Bird
Dr J
West

Gibby23
12-01-2009, 02:32 PM
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 02:37 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Robertson
West
James
Garnett
Erving
Paul
Howard

Basing this off now. If LeBron improves like he should, he moves up obviously. Everyone else is deep into their careers or retired, outside my bottom 2, who I cant see climbing

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 02:37 PM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 02:41 PM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.

Lebron would **** on Bird

sofargone
12-01-2009, 02:41 PM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.
lmao im 17 and even i know how good bird is

montazingmvp
12-01-2009, 02:49 PM
Duncan
Lebron
Garnett
Kobe
O
Howard
CP3
Bird
Dr J
West

you're list is atrocious. if you don't know anything about bird dr j or west, then don't make a list because there is some extreme bias going on there..

my list

bird
lebron
kobe
dr j
duncan
west
oscar
garnett
cp3
howard

montazingmvp
12-01-2009, 02:51 PM
Lebron would **** on Bird

and bird would outsmart the **** out of lebron

Silent
12-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Lebron would **** on Bird

:facepalm:

VRP723
12-01-2009, 02:56 PM
Kobe
Bird
Oscar
Lebron
Duncan
Dwight
Dr J
KG
CP3
West

Padres Son
12-01-2009, 02:57 PM
Lebron would **** on Bird

Ok, junior. Just because you're too young to have seen Bird play doesn't mean he wasn't one of the all-time greatest. Look at his numbers from the 84-85, 86-87, and 87-88 seasons. LeBron still hasn't had a season as good as any of those three.

thenyknicks
12-01-2009, 03:08 PM
kobe
lebron
duncan
oscar
west
bird
erving
garnett
howard
paul

mj, jabbar, majic, wilt, bill russel, and shaq........greatest of all time

thenyknicks
12-01-2009, 03:12 PM
Lebron would **** on Bird

i don't think anyone should argue with that.
especially because bird was almost as slow as zydruna illgauskus :D

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 03:13 PM
Ok, junior. Just because you're too young to have seen Bird play doesn't mean he wasn't one of the all-time greatest. Look at his numbers from the 84-85, 86-87, and 87-88 seasons. LeBron still hasn't had a season as good as any of those three.

I love it!

Lebron's last two seasons beat out any year Bird had statistically. And Lebron is a much better defender.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 03:16 PM
you're list is atrocious. if you don't know anything about bird dr j or west, then don't make a list because there is some extreme bias going on there..

my list

bird
lebron
kobe
dr j
duncan
west
oscar
garnett
cp3
howard

How can you call my list atrocious and then put the best PF in history #5? Behind Dr J, no less.

Padres Son
12-01-2009, 03:24 PM
I love it!

Lebron's last two seasons beat out any year Bird had statistically. And Lebron is a much better defender.


Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2007-08 23 CLE NBA 75 74 40.4 10.6 21.9 .484 1.5 4.8 .315 7.3 10.3 .712 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 1.8 1.1 3.4 2.2 30.0
2008-09 24 CLE NBA 81 81 37.7 9.7 19.9 .489 1.6 4.7 .344 7.3 9.4 .780 1.3 6.3 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 3.0 1.7 28.4

Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1984-85 28 BOS NBA 80 77 39.5 11.5 22.0 .522 0.7 1.6 .427 5.0 5.7 .882 2.1 8.5 10.5 6.6 1.6 1.2 3.1 2.6 28.7
1986-87 30 BOS NBA 74 73 40.6 10.6 20.2 .525 1.2 3.0 .400 5.6 6.1 .910 1.7 7.5 9.2 7.6 1.8 0.9 3.2 2.5 28.1
1987-88 31 BOS NBA 76 75 39.0 11.6 22.0 .527 1.3 3.1 .414 5.5 6.0 .916 1.4 7.8 9.3 6.1 1.6 0.8 2.8 2.1 29.9


Uhhh, the numbers don't back it up. You could argue either way... but to say that LeBron would **** on Bird just makes you look foolish.

ishouldbeagm
12-01-2009, 03:27 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

From what I know now:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Jerry West
3. Larry Bird
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Julius Erving
7. Kevin Garnett
8. LeBron James
9. Dwight Howard
10. Chris Paul

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2007-08 23 CLE NBA 75 74 40.4 10.6 21.9 .484 1.5 4.8 .315 7.3 10.3 .712 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 1.8 1.1 3.4 2.2 30.0
2008-09 24 CLE NBA 81 81 37.7 9.7 19.9 .489 1.6 4.7 .344 7.3 9.4 .780 1.3 6.3 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 3.0 1.7 28.4

Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1984-85 28 BOS NBA 80 77 39.5 11.5 22.0 .522 0.7 1.6 .427 5.0 5.7 .882 2.1 8.5 10.5 6.6 1.6 1.2 3.1 2.6 28.7
1986-87 30 BOS NBA 74 73 40.6 10.6 20.2 .525 1.2 3.0 .400 5.6 6.1 .910 1.7 7.5 9.2 7.6 1.8 0.9 3.2 2.5 28.1
1987-88 31 BOS NBA 76 75 39.0 11.6 22.0 .527 1.3 3.1 .414 5.5 6.0 .916 1.4 7.8 9.3 6.1 1.6 0.8 2.8 2.1 29.9


Uhhh, the numbers don't back it up. You could argue either way... but to say that LeBron would **** on Bird just makes you look foolish.

By PER Lebron's last two seasons top Bird's best.

Even if you want to claim Bird on offense, Lebron is a much better defender than Bird ever was and if I'm building a team, I want a player to play on both ends which is why I have Duncan and KG in my top 3

BOSTONMARC
12-01-2009, 03:33 PM
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Julius Erving
Jerry West
Kevin Garnett
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard

Jay_Dub
12-01-2009, 03:40 PM
you're list is atrocious. if you don't know anything about bird dr j or west, then don't make a list because there is some extreme bias going on there..

my list

bird
lebron
kobe
dr j
duncan
west
oscar
garnett
cp3
howard

Your list is atrocious ... you put oscar 7th on the list???? You obviously don't have a clue. The guy averaged a triple double for an entire season!!

tsb77
12-01-2009, 03:41 PM
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Jerry West

rapjuicer06
12-01-2009, 03:48 PM
its almost impossible to compare players from now to players back then. so you all keep yelling at each other and calling each other lists atrocious. but you all look dumb

HoopsDrive
12-01-2009, 04:35 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Robertson
Duncan
West
Bird
Kobe
Erving
Garnett
James
Howard
Paul

Duncan and Garnett probably won't move up on the list anymore.
Kobe can move up if he wins one more ring.
James, Howard and Paul will all depend on their career obviously... there's still much to be written about them.

JordansBulls
12-01-2009, 04:52 PM
I love it!

Lebron's last two seasons beat out any year Bird had statistically. And Lebron is a much better defender.

Don't try to argue PER when the average player in the 80's was much better than the average player in the 2000's.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 04:54 PM
Don't try to argue PER when the average player in the 80's was much better than the average player in the 2000's.

You have a source for that?

sofargone
12-01-2009, 04:55 PM
PER is the most important stat. Ever.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 05:11 PM
While LeBron may end up better than Bird, give me a break. Bird won his team a ring in his second year, bringing them back againt Dr J and Bobbie Jones from a 3-1 hole, and then kicked the crap out of the Rockets in the finals. Larry Bird is a top 3 player ever in my book and easily considered a top 10 player ever, worst case. LeBron has a ways to go. Bird dominated athletes back then, he would do it now. With the no hand check rule, Bird would be destroying the league now, just like he did then.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-01-2009, 05:19 PM
Bird would be first with either Duncan, Kobe or Lebron at 2nd place.

nipo10847
12-01-2009, 05:31 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Julius Erving

Jaji
12-01-2009, 05:34 PM
LeBron James

That's it. I'd pretty much put all my eggs in the LeBron basket and if we didn't win the lottery I'd resign.

Lakersfan2483
12-01-2009, 05:51 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Oscar
Lebron
West
Dr. J
KG
Howard
C. Paul

*The list is subject to change as some of these players have not finished their careers.
*BTW, good thread JB.

Lakersfan2483
12-01-2009, 05:55 PM
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Robertson
West
James
Garnett
Erving
Paul
Howard

Basing this off now. If LeBron improves like he should, he moves up obviously. Everyone else is deep into their careers or retired, outside my bottom 2, who I cant see climbing

Your list is very similar to my list.

J4KOP99
12-01-2009, 05:56 PM
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Robertson
West
James
Garnett
Erving
Paul
Howard

Basing this off now. If LeBron improves like he should, he moves up obviously. Everyone else is deep into their careers or retired, outside my bottom 2, who I cant see climbing

I agree with your list except I put LeBron over Jerry.

madiaz3
12-01-2009, 05:57 PM
Ok, junior. Just because you're too young to have seen Bird play doesn't mean he wasn't one of the all-time greatest. Look at his numbers from the 84-85, 86-87, and 87-88 seasons. LeBron still hasn't had a season as good as any of those three.

Just reminding myself...
28+ppg on 50+/40+/90+ % shooting, ~10 RPG, 7+APG, ~2spg and ~1bpg! :speechless:

Lakersfan2483
12-01-2009, 06:04 PM
Just reminding myself...
28+ppg on 52.5% FG / 40+% 3PT%, 90+% FT, ~10 RPG, 7+APG, ~2spg and ~1bpg! :speechless:

Good info, a lot of people don't realize how great Larry was, especially during arguably the best era of basketball.

sp1derm00
12-01-2009, 06:07 PM
Kobe
Bird
Duncan
Oscar
Lebron
West
Garnett
Paul
Dwight

bluefire7002
12-01-2009, 06:18 PM
Kobe
Bird
Duncan
Oscar
Lebron
Garnett
Dwight
Erving
Paul

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 06:19 PM
While LeBron may end up better than Bird, give me a break. Bird won his team a ring in his second year, bringing them back againt Dr J and Bobbie Jones from a 3-1 hole, and then kicked the crap out of the Rockets in the finals. Larry Bird is a top 3 player ever in my book and easily considered a top 10 player ever, worst case. LeBron has a ways to go. Bird dominated athletes back then, he would do it now. With the no hand check rule, Bird would be destroying the league now, just like he did then.

No doubt Bird was a great offensive player, but do you not think Lebron wins a title in his second year if he's playing on that Celtics roster? I think Lebron proved this when he tore apart the Pistons in the playoffs a few years ago, by himself.


Just reminding myself...
28+ppg on 50+/40+/90+ % shooting, ~10 RPG, 7+APG, ~2spg and ~1bpg! :speechless:

Not to take anything away from one of the greatest offensive players in history but take into consideration this:

In 85-86 teams averaged 110.2 points per game on .487 from the field
In 08-09 teams averaged 100.0 points per game on .459 from the field

Simpson4Heisman
12-01-2009, 06:24 PM
first off this is a very weird question, don't know why you picked this group... guessing your in an all-time somewhere

Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Jerry West
Kobe Bryant
Julius Erving
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Lebron James
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard

That's assuming your talking about there all-time impact in the league. Lebron will most likely end up higher on this list, but that's not now. Paul and Howard don't really belong with the rest of these names. Bird and Robertson are a tie, Julius, Jerry and Kobe slightly behind.

Simpson4Heisman
12-01-2009, 06:26 PM
No doubt Bird was a great offensive player, but do you not think Lebron wins a title in his second year if he's playing on that Celtics roster? I think Lebron proved this when he tore apart the Pistons in the playoffs a few years ago, by himself.



Not to take anything away from one of the greatest offensive players in history but take into consideration this:

In 85-86 teams averaged 110.2 points per game on .487 from the field
In 08-09 teams averaged 100.0 points per game on .459 from the field

You're only taking into account one year. :facepalm: Stats are just very bad ways to compare players overtime. You have to look how they dominated there era. Don't me wrong I'm on Team Kobe :p but comparing him to Larry Bird or Oscar isn't fair. I think he may have earned his right to be mentioned with Erving and West however.

SteveNash
12-01-2009, 06:37 PM
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
Garnett
Robertson
West
Howard
Bird
Erving
Paul


No doubt Bird was a great offensive player, but do you not think Lebron wins a title in his second year if he's playing on that Celtics roster? I think Lebron proved this when he tore apart the Pistons in the playoffs a few years ago, by himself.

He had one phenomenal game, one decent games, and played terrible the other games to go along with his 4 terrible games in the Finals where he got swept.

Kind of similar to Bird.

It's so funny hearing about people like Hawkeye15 put Bird on some sort of pedestal while trying to downplay a player like LeBron. It just shows to overall ignorance on Bird's games. Where people either have a selective memory where they think LeBron demolished the Pistons because he had one game for the ages. Or they're young and only watched Bird in highlight reels and ESPN Classic where the fans really don't want to see Bird bricking shots.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 06:47 PM
You're only taking into account one year. :facepalm: Stats are just very bad ways to compare players overtime. You have to look how they dominated there era. Don't me wrong I'm on Team Kobe :p but comparing him to Larry Bird or Oscar isn't fair. I think he may have earned his right to be mentioned with Erving and West however.

When comparing players you have to take into account the type of game played in each era. When O and Wilt played the game was wide open with more shots and rebounds available to all the players, so one of the tallest players in the league will put up 50/20 and one of the quickest and sharpest PGs will put up a triple double.

Larry Bird's numbers are great and he stacks up against just about anyone from his era. My post was to slow the game today is slower than it was, so there are less shots and rebounds, field goal percentage is down, it's harder to put up great stats than it was 20 years ago, just based on the league averages.

82-83: 108.5 (.485)
83-84: 110.1 (.492)
84-85: 110.8 (.491)
86-87: 109.9 (.480)
87-88: 108.2 (.480)

06-07: 98.7 (.458)
05-06: 97.0 (.454)
04-05: 97.2 (.447)
03-04: 93.4 (.439)
02-03: 95.1 (.442)

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 06:50 PM
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
Garnett
Robertson
West
Howard
Bird
Erving
Paul



He had one phenomenal game, one decent games, and played terrible the other games to go along with his 4 terrible games in the Finals where he got swept.

Kind of similar to Bird.

It's so funny hearing about people like Hawkeye15 put Bird on some sort of pedestal while trying to downplay a player like LeBron. It just shows to overall ignorance on Bird's games. Where people either have a selective memory where they think LeBron demolished the Pistons because he had one game for the ages. Or they're young and only watched Bird in highlight reels and ESPN Classic where the fans really don't want to see Bird bricking shots.

I'll give you the Lebron-Pistons series, but Lebron tore up everyone in the playoffs last season, even the Magic.

ARMIN12NBA
12-01-2009, 06:55 PM
You have a source for that?

^ Doesn't watch the games. Drools over box scores.

Miss the days when great basketball minds would truly analyze the games, taking into account intangibles and the fact that each situation has their own variables and unique nature.

Vidball
12-01-2009, 07:38 PM
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
LeBron James
Jerry West
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

jim51990
12-01-2009, 07:50 PM
lebron
bird
kobe
west
dr j
duncan
oscar
garnett
cp3 & howard (dont belong in this group)

Sox Appeal
12-01-2009, 07:55 PM
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Jerry West
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard

BlondeBomber41
12-01-2009, 08:00 PM
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Julius Erving

GREATNESS ONE
12-01-2009, 08:03 PM
Kobe
Bird
Duncan
Oscar
Lebron
West
Garnett
Paul
Dwight

This is the perfect list. With the Doc between West and Garnett.

RaiderLakersA's
12-01-2009, 08:21 PM
When comparing players you have to take into account the type of game played in each era. When O and Wilt played the game was wide open with more shots and rebounds available to all the players, so one of the tallest players in the league will put up 50/20 and one of the quickest and sharpest PGs will put up a triple double.

Larry Bird's numbers are great and he stacks up against just about anyone from his era. My post was to slow the game today is slower than it was, so there are less shots and rebounds, field goal percentage is down, it's harder to put up great stats than it was 20 years ago, just based on the league averages.

82-83: 108.5 (.485)
83-84: 110.1 (.492)
84-85: 110.8 (.491)
86-87: 109.9 (.480)
87-88: 108.2 (.480)

06-07: 98.7 (.458)
05-06: 97.0 (.454)
04-05: 97.2 (.447)
03-04: 93.4 (.439)
02-03: 95.1 (.442)

You would also have to consider talent level, and one could argue that talent is much more diffuse in today's game as opposed to previous eras. Go back and look at the talent on some of those 80's championship teams and you'll see multiple hall of famers up and down the roster. But when you look at today's game...ok, someone mentioned LeBron -- he may have put away Detroit, but I don't see him wiping the floor with Dr. J's '6ers or Bird's Celtics or the Showtime Lakers without considerable upgrades in talent at all positions.

It's ridiculous to compare eras this way; we won't ever reach a consensus. This is one of those cases where I think we should set aside hard stats and just go with a poster's opinion, no matter how outrageous.

If I'm drafting now for my team as the league is CURRENTLY, I'm looking at Bird, Duncan, and Kobe in no particular order. Why? Because I know they'd bring multiple championships to my trophy cabinet... and that's all that matters to me.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 08:26 PM
Your list is very similar to my list.

that is because great minds thing alike :)

Vinny642
12-01-2009, 08:29 PM
I agree Paul and Howard shouldn't be here yet

philab
12-01-2009, 08:30 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

LeBron
Duncan
Bird
Robertson
Kobe
West
Howard
Erving
Garnett
Paul


I'll take some heat for the LeBron thing, but he's improved nearly every year he's been in the league and has probably the most potential/most natural talent of anyone player ever. He may level off, but he's my pick until he does.

SaimoNETS
12-01-2009, 08:31 PM
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Jerry West
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 08:31 PM
No doubt Bird was a great offensive player, but do you not think Lebron wins a title in his second year if he's playing on that Celtics roster? I think Lebron proved this when he tore apart the Pistons in the playoffs a few years ago, by himself.



Not to take anything away from one of the greatest offensive players in history but take into consideration this:

In 85-86 teams averaged 110.2 points per game on .487 from the field
In 08-09 teams averaged 100.0 points per game on .459 from the field

we will never know if Lebron would have. But Larry did. And Bird's defense was highly underrated. While he was a poor individual defender, he was a great defensive rebounder, had ultra quick hands, and simply played his best when it mattered most, something every single Lebron hater points out.
Players from the 80's were simply better then they are now. The game was faster, and tougher. Bird beat up on Magic, MJ, the Pistons, Hakeem, and many more. He took some lumps too, but Larry Bird is the #3 player of all time in my book. He would have eaten LeBron's lunch currently. On the other end, Cedric Maxwell or Danny Ainge was guarding LeBron, and no way the Cavs would have put LeBron on Larry. He would have gotten LeBron in foul trouble or out of rythm quickly.
LeBron needs to sustain this play and win some rings to even be mentioned with Mr. Bird

TheKing23
12-01-2009, 08:34 PM
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard

jmastert
12-01-2009, 08:35 PM
5 Tim Duncan
7 Kevin Garnett
4 Larry Bird
3 Kobe Bryant
1 Lebron James
2 Oscar Robertson
8 Jerry West
9 Chris Paul
6 Julius Erving
10 Dwight Howard

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 08:37 PM
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
Garnett
Robertson
West
Howard
Bird
Erving
Paul



He had one phenomenal game, one decent games, and played terrible the other games to go along with his 4 terrible games in the Finals where he got swept.

Kind of similar to Bird.

It's so funny hearing about people like Hawkeye15 put Bird on some sort of pedestal while trying to downplay a player like LeBron. It just shows to overall ignorance on Bird's games. Where people either have a selective memory where they think LeBron demolished the Pistons because he had one game for the ages. Or they're young and only watched Bird in highlight reels and ESPN Classic where the fans really don't want to see Bird bricking shots.


really? I am not downplaying LeBron at all. What has he done? He may be the best individual player right now, but he is NOT in Larry Bird's class yet. Absolutely not. Bird is a career 49.6/38/89% shooter. He didn't throw up nearly as many bricks as Kobe or LeBron.
I am 34 years old. I watched Bird play as a kid. A lot. My dad was a Celtics fan. Would you like to argue this further? My point is, LeBron does not belong in the conversation with one of the top 5 players to ever play the game. Not yet. And if you have been around this site long enough, you know I stick up for LeBron being the best player in the league all the time.
Its just apparent how young many on this board are.

KnicksorBust
12-01-2009, 08:39 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Julius Erving
Chris Paul

I was surprised no one had my list so I'm gonna post it. That was actually really difficult. I just can't put LeBron ahead of a top 10 player of all-time. I can't do it.

GeneWaldron#5
12-01-2009, 08:43 PM
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Robertson
West
Erving
KG
Howard
Paul

JordansBulls
12-01-2009, 08:44 PM
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron
Garnett
Robertson
West
Howard
Bird
Erving
Paul



He had one phenomenal game, one decent games, and played terrible the other games to go along with his 4 terrible games in the Finals where he got swept.

Kind of similar to Bird.

It's so funny hearing about people like Hawkeye15 put Bird on some sort of pedestal while trying to downplay a player like LeBron. It just shows to overall ignorance on Bird's games. Where people either have a selective memory where they think LeBron demolished the Pistons because he had one game for the ages. Or they're young and only watched Bird in highlight reels and ESPN Classic where the fans really don't want to see Bird bricking shots.


Why is Bird soo low and why is Garnett higher as well?

Young and Stupid
12-01-2009, 08:45 PM
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

bostncelts34
12-01-2009, 08:57 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

As of NOW..id go with

Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Big O
Garnett
Lebron
West
Ervin
Howard
Paul

GiantMetKnick
12-01-2009, 08:59 PM
I can't really make intelligent judgments about guys I've never seen play, so I'm going to exclude Bird, Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 09:02 PM
I can't really make intelligent judgments about guys I've never seen play, so I'm going to exclude Bird, Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

this is the best answer so far. If you are 20, you didnt watch those guys play. Just admit it instead of judging them off stats, and bias of only seeing the new guys.

GiantMetKnick
12-01-2009, 09:02 PM
I think people forget how amazing KG was. He's a little older and slower these days, but he showed that if you give him help (something he never had for all those years in Minnesota), he'll win a championship. Put KG on the Spurs instead of Duncan and I don't see him not having similar success.

I will say, though, its really close for all these guys. I had a lot of trouble dropping Duncan to 4 and Paul to 6. Arguments can easily be made to switch these guys up, and I'm not sure my opinion would be the same even tomorrow.

BTW: Isn't Oscar considered by some to be the best player ever? Surprised he's so low on a lot of lists.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 09:02 PM
I am even guilty. I saw Oscar play when he was super old, and I was young. And never saw West play. Just went off stats and awards

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 09:05 PM
I think people forget how amazing KG was. He's a little older and slower these days, but he showed that if you give him help (something he never had for all those years in Minnesota), he'll win a championship. Put KG on the Spurs instead of Duncan and I don't see him not having similar success.

I will say, though, its really close for all these guys. I had a lot of trouble dropping Duncan to 4 and Paul to 6. Arguments can easily be made to switch these guys up, and I'm not sure my opinion would be the same even tomorrow.

trust me, biggest KG fan ever here, but what ifs cant be used. He was never able to get Minnesota past the first round until he got Cassell and Spree, and needed to be 2nd banana to win it all. I just cant put him above #6 at the highest

runforrestrunx9
12-01-2009, 09:13 PM
you're list is atrocious. if you don't know anything about bird dr j or west, then don't make a list because there is some extreme bias going on there..

my list

bird
lebron
kobe
dr j
duncan
west
oscar
garnett
cp3
howard

i like ur list but i think oscar has 2 be above duncan and west- top 4 and bottom 3 look good

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 09:13 PM
we will never know if Lebron would have. But Larry did. And Bird's defense was highly underrated. While he was a poor individual defender, he was a great defensive rebounder, had ultra quick hands, and simply played his best when it mattered most, something every single Lebron hater points out.
Players from the 80's were simply better then they are now. The game was faster, and tougher. Bird beat up on Magic, MJ, the Pistons, Hakeem, and many more. He took some lumps too, but Larry Bird is the #3 player of all time in my book. He would have eaten LeBron's lunch currently. On the other end, Cedric Maxwell or Danny Ainge was guarding LeBron, and no way the Cavs would have put LeBron on Larry. He would have gotten LeBron in foul trouble or out of rythm quickly.
LeBron needs to sustain this play and win some rings to even be mentioned with Mr. Bird

The way I interpreted the question is I am making a draft pick so presumably all of the players are 21ish and my team needs a player to build around. I don't get Ainge or Maxwell (or DJ) to guard Lebron. If I draft Lebron, not only can he produce on offense at a similar level to Bird, James brings more on the defensive end no matter how underrated Bird's defense was. Bird's footwork was not good enough to overcome his lack of speed and he was well disguised playing in a defense that featured some of the greatest defenders already mentioned plus Robert Parish. Bird is much more likely to get into foul trouble guarding the faster, stronger James.

I'm taking Garnett and Duncan also over Bird because it's easier to build around a great offensive post player and both KG and Duncan are/were great defenders who could shut down an opposing star. After that I'll take Kobe, his offense might not match Bird but Bryant's perimeter defense can lock down opposing wings.

It really all depends on how you want to build your team. I'm not worried about how many rings any of these guys have, not in this context, I just want the player that will be the most dominant on both ends of the court.

randomness
12-01-2009, 09:17 PM
1. Larry Bird
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Julius Erving
5. LeBron James
6. Tim Duncan
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Jerry West
9. Chris Paul
10. Dwight Howard

KnicksorBust
12-01-2009, 09:19 PM
I think people forget how amazing KG was. He's a little older and slower these days, but he showed that if you give him help (something he never had for all those years in Minnesota), he'll win a championship. Put KG on the Spurs instead of Duncan and I don't see him not having similar success.

I will say, though, its really close for all these guys. I had a lot of trouble dropping Duncan to 4 and Paul to 6. Arguments can easily be made to switch these guys up, and I'm not sure my opinion would be the same even tomorrow.

BTW: Isn't Oscar considered by some to be the best player ever? Surprised he's so low on a lot of lists.

So KG could have swept the '99 Lakers by throwing up 35-14-4 in the last two games and then led a past his prime David Robinson, bruce bowen, antonio daniels, rookie tony parker, malik rose, ferry, charles and steve smith to a ring? Doubt it homey. :rolleyes:

i.got.the.nutz
12-01-2009, 09:20 PM
I can't really make intelligent judgments about guys I've never seen play, so I'm going to exclude Bird, Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

Kevin Garnett over Tim Duncan? Really?

SteveNash
12-01-2009, 09:21 PM
really? I am not downplaying LeBron at all. What has he done? He may be the best individual player right now, but he is NOT in Larry Bird's class yet. Absolutely not. Bird is a career 49.6/38/89% shooter. He didn't throw up nearly as many bricks as Kobe or LeBron.
I am 34 years old. I watched Bird play as a kid. A lot. My dad was a Celtics fan. Would you like to argue this further? My point is, LeBron does not belong in the conversation with one of the top 5 players to ever play the game. Not yet. And if you have been around this site long enough, you know I stick up for LeBron being the best player in the league all the time.
Its just apparent how young many on this board are.

Do you draft a player on what he has done or what he can become? Were you a person that argued the Magic should have taken Laettner over Shaq because of their college careers?

You credit Bird for winning a championship in his second year in the league, could you tell me who exactly won the Finals MVP that year? Wasn't it Cornbread Maxwell, the guy who shot 55% during his career because the era was worse defensively. Or if you don't agree with that, at the very least it was a different style of play that don't make comparisons to shooting percentages all that accurate in determining who is better. With the exception of FT shooting anyway.

My response was also directed towards your response in the basketball IQ thread where you implied that Kobe was smart, but not among the smartest because of his shot selection. While Bird was the smartest or one of the smartest of all time because what?


Why is Bird soo low and why is Garnett higher as well?

Not a fan of Garnett, but he's played 12/13 years at a high level already and still has some left. Is a big man in a league that doesn't have very many, and he's proven in todays modern era.

Bird is low because he only had a ten year career with back issues, poor defender, and a game that wouldn't translate as well in todays game.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 09:26 PM
Not a fan of Garnett, but he's played 12/13 years at a high level already and still has some left. Is a big man in a league that doesn't have very many, and he's proven in todays modern era.


Why aren't you a fan of a Garnett's game?

fast_break
12-01-2009, 09:30 PM
1.Kobe
2.Duncan
3.O
4.Bird
5.West
6.Dr.J
7.Lebron
8.Garnett
9.CP3
10.Dwight

SteveNash
12-01-2009, 09:33 PM
Why aren't you a fan of a Garnett's game?

He takes a lot of jumpshots and disappears in the clutch.

Raph12
12-01-2009, 09:53 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West

Ethix11
12-01-2009, 09:56 PM
If you put Lebron in the game 20 years ago, back when Bird was playing, he would single handedly dunk over everyone and break others ankles. Come on, Bird was great in his time. Players back then didnt have the athleticism that goes on now and didnt have it for another 10 years.
Lebron #1.
2.Kobe
3.Bird
4.Duncan
5.Robinson
6.CP3
7.Dr.J
8.Dwight
9.Garnett
10.West

KnicksorBust
12-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West

Jerry West last? Chris Paul over Oscar Robertson? Your list started out so well.

Raph12
12-01-2009, 10:29 PM
Jerry West last? Chris Paul over Oscar Robertson? Your list started out so well.

Both were considered elite in the '60s, an era where talent was extremely limited.

In today's game, I don't think Oscar or West would put up numbers anywhere close to what they were producing back in the day.

GspLAL
12-01-2009, 10:35 PM
I can't really make intelligent judgments about guys I've never seen play, so I'm going to exclude Bird, Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

I've never seen those guys play either so..

Duncan
Kobe
LBJ
KG
D12
CP3

_KB24_
12-01-2009, 10:45 PM
Kobe
Bird
Oscar/West (Too hard of a choice)
Dr.J
Duncan/KG (Once again, too hard of a decision for me)
Bron
Dwight
Paul

mudvayne387
12-01-2009, 10:45 PM
duncan
lebron
garnett
kobe
o
howard
cp3
bird
dr j
west


hahaha !

KnicksorBust
12-01-2009, 10:55 PM
Both were considered elite in the '60s, an era where talent was extremely limited.

In today's game, I don't think Oscar or West would put up numbers anywhere close to what they were producing back in the day.

Jerry West could do everything. He could shoot, pass, dribble, post up, and was considered by Red Auerbach to be one of the greatest defensive guards of all-time. He's also one of the most clutch players of All-Time. Having him last on your list is a travesty.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 11:11 PM
Do you draft a player on what he has done or what he can become? Were you a person that argued the Magic should have taken Laettner over Shaq because of their college careers?

You credit Bird for winning a championship in his second year in the league, could you tell me who exactly won the Finals MVP that year? Wasn't it Cornbread Maxwell, the guy who shot 55% during his career because the era was worse defensively. Or if you don't agree with that, at the very least it was a different style of play that don't make comparisons to shooting percentages all that accurate in determining who is better. With the exception of FT shooting anyway.

My response was also directed towards your response in the basketball IQ thread where you implied that Kobe was smart, but not among the smartest because of his shot selection. While Bird was the smartest or one of the smartest of all time because what?



Not a fan of Garnett, but he's played 12/13 years at a high level already and still has some left. Is a big man in a league that doesn't have very many, and he's proven in todays modern era.

Bird is low because he only had a ten year career with back issues, poor defender, and a game that wouldn't translate as well in todays game.

if your response was a retort to the IQ thread, then congrats, you join the countless Laker fans here who turn a blind eye to the compliments, and single out the criticism. Done with this after that respone. Sorry I dont pray to my Kobe poster before I go to bed at night. Lata

ItsTheLastAce
12-01-2009, 11:11 PM
Kobe
Bird
Oscar/West (Too hard of a choice)
Dr.J
Duncan/KG (Once again, too hard of a decision for me)
Bron
Dwight
Paul

i think your sig would stop anybody

Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Julius Erving
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

madiaz3
12-01-2009, 11:22 PM
if your response was a retort to the IQ thread, then congrats, you join the countless Laker fans here who turn a blind eye to the compliments, and single out the criticism. Done with this after that respone. Sorry I dont pray to my Kobe poster before I go to bed at night. Lata

what copout would you have used if he didnt mention it also being a response to the IQ thread?

The finals mvp point is at least valid to discuss

djeller1139
12-01-2009, 11:29 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Bird
Lebron
Kobe
West
Duncan
Robertson
Erving
Howard
Garnett
Paul

J4KOP99
12-02-2009, 12:36 AM
Both were considered elite in the '60s, an era where talent was extremely limited.

In today's game, I don't think Oscar or West would put up numbers anywhere close to what they were producing back in the day.

If John Stockton could hold his own in the league(when other players were extremely athletic and there were a ton of big-time stars) then I have a feeling Oscar Roberston and Jerry West would be very, very good as well.


Better than Chris Paul.

Just because there was less talent in the 60's does not mean some of the talented players aren't really that good. If you don't think Oscar Robertson and Jerry West would not be nearly as good now, you are foolish.

SteveNash
12-02-2009, 12:48 AM
if your response was a retort to the IQ thread, then congrats, you join the countless Laker fans here who turn a blind eye to the compliments, and single out the criticism. Done with this after that respone. Sorry I dont pray to my Kobe poster before I go to bed at night. Lata

I had no problem with what you said about Kobe, and I'm far from a Laker fan (though I do enjoy watching Kobe).

The problem I saw with your post in the other thread was you criticizing Kobe for his shot selection while praising Bird's shot selection. And that relates to this thread when you started chastising people for not putting Bird in the top 3. That is why I questioned how much you really knew about Larry Bird and judging from your weak response, I'm guessing you don't have much of a leg to stand on, so I guess this discussion is over.

_KB24_
12-02-2009, 01:15 AM
i had no problem with what you said about kobe, and i'm far from a laker fan (though i do enjoy watching kobe).

The problem i saw with your post in the other thread was you criticizing kobe for his shot selection while praising bird's shot selection. And that relates to this thread when you started chastising people for not putting bird in the top 3. That is why i questioned how much you really knew about larry bird and judging from your weak response, i'm guessing you don't have much of a leg to stand on, so i guess this discussion is over.

boss

Raph12
12-02-2009, 01:51 AM
If John Stockton could hold his own in the league(when other players were extremely athletic and there were a ton of big-time stars) then I have a feeling Oscar Roberston and Jerry West would be very, very good as well.


Better than Chris Paul.

Just because there was less talent in the 60's does not mean some of the talented players aren't really that good. If you don't think Oscar Robertson and Jerry West would not be nearly as good now, you are foolish.

Well IMO Stockton>Robertson>West, so your logic doesn't make sense to me.

IMO, Wilt would be a less athletic Dwight Howard with a slightly refined offensive game and Russel would be a less athletic Ben Wallace.

I don't have much respect for so-called "dominant" players in the '60s.

Lakersfan2483
12-02-2009, 02:03 AM
I can't believe a lot of posters on here, how can anyone justify taking Lebron over proven title winners like Bird, Duncan, Oscar and Kobe. Lebron is a phenomenal player and has the ability to become a top ten player of all time, but he has not accomplished what those guys have accomplished. I understand many of you are looking at stats and we all know Lebron has great stats, but all of those guys have won multiple titles with the exception of Oscar. (He did actually win a title though) James has to start winning some rings and continue to play at a high level for him to be selected over those all time greats..... A lot of you guys are picking Lebron solely on potential, however we know what those other guys have accomplished, so why take him ahead of a guy like Duncan?

*Duncan, Oscar, Kobe, and Bird are top 10 players of all time, Lebron is not there yet. He has the potential to get there, but he has to lead his team to a few titles and continue to play at a high level to get there.

abe_froman
12-02-2009, 02:05 AM
If you don't think Oscar Robertson and Jerry West would not be nearly as good now, you are foolish.

jerry west with a 3 pt line...:speechless:

Lakersfan2483
12-02-2009, 02:15 AM
[QUOTE=Ethix11;11551770][B]If you put Lebron in the game 20 years ago, back when Bird was playing, he would single handedly dunk over everyone and break others ankles. Come on, Bird was great in his time. Players back then didnt have the athleticism that goes on now and didnt have it for another 10 years.


You have to be joking, have you not heard of guys like Dominique Wilkins, Michael Jordan, David Thompson, Dr. J and so on? Many of the guys were extremely athletic during the 70's and 80's. A lot of those guys were better also, the quality of talent was better in the 80's. Back during those days, perimeter guys shot close to .50 pct or higher, had a midrange game, and were fundamentally sound.

ChiSox219
12-02-2009, 02:19 AM
I can't believe a lot of posters on here, how can anyone justify taking Lebron over proven title winners like Bird, Duncan, Oscar and Kobe. Lebron is a phenomenal player and has the ability to become a top ten player of all time, but he has not accomplished what those guys have accomplished. I understand many of you are looking at stats and we all know Lebron has great stats, but all of those guys have won multiple titles with the exception of Oscar. (He did actually win a title though) James has to start winning some rings and continue to play at a high level for him to be selected over those all time greats..... A lot of you guys are picking Lebron solely on potential, however we know what those other guys have accomplished, so why take him ahead of a guy like Duncan?

*Duncan, Oscar, Kobe, and Bird are top 10 players of all time, Lebron is not there yet. He has the potential to get there, but he has to lead his team to a few titles and continue to play at a high level to get there.

Teams win championships.

This is a hypothetical draft, not which player had the most decorated career. Lebron may not be top 10 yet, but that's only because he hasn't built up the awards and titles.

CowboysKB24
12-02-2009, 02:21 AM
Kobe.

Lakersfan2483
12-02-2009, 02:31 AM
Teams win championships.

This is a hypothetical draft, not which player had the most decorated career. Lebron may not be top 10 yet, but that's only because he hasn't built up the awards and titles.

So you think that Lebron is going to accomplish more and win more than a guy like Duncan? It's going to be tough for him, Tim has 4 titles, MVPs, Finals mvps, multiple all time defensive 1st teams, etc.... I understand you are basing it on potential, but we already know that Duncan can lead a team to multiple titles, but we don't know that about Lebron. I am not stating that he can't, but you can't ignore the fact that Duncan is a proven champion and will lead a franchise to multiple titles as the main man.

ChiSox219
12-02-2009, 02:39 AM
So you think that Lebron is going to accomplish more and win more than a guy like Duncan? It's going to be tough for him, Tim has 4 titles, MVPs, Finals mvps, multiple all time defensive 1st teams, etc.... I understand you are basing it on potential, but we already know that Duncan can lead a team to multiple titles, but we don't know that about Lebron. I am not stating that he can't, but you can't ignore the fact that Duncan is a proven champion and will lead a franchise to multiple titles as the main man.

Well I listed Tim Duncan #1 for my choice but that's besides the point. Duncan didn't win titles, the Spurs did. He had David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu, etc.

I've seen Lebron lead a bunch of scrubs to the finals and last year he absolutely dominated in the playoffs. If I'm a GM with the #2 pick I am taking Lebron, building a team around him and then winning a title.

abe_froman
12-02-2009, 02:41 AM
So you think that Lebron is going to accomplish more and win more than a guy like Duncan?
i do

Lakersfan2483
12-02-2009, 02:44 AM
Well I listed Tim Duncan #1 for my choice but that's besides the point. Duncan didn't win titles, the Spurs did. He had David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu, etc.

I've seen Lebron lead a bunch of scrubs to the finals and last year he absolutely dominated in the playoffs. If I'm a GM with the #2 pick I am taking Lebron, building a team around him and then winning a title.

Of course I know teams win titles, but it took a guy like Duncan to lead that team to titles. He was the driving force behind all of those titles as he clearly was the team's best player. I have seen a lot of teams have talent, but not win, so talent alone doesn't win rings....

As far as the Lebron is concerned, I can understand where you are coming from as he is a terrific talent, but as of right now, I would take Bird, Duncan, Kobe and Oscar over him.

Lakersfan2483
12-02-2009, 02:49 AM
i do

We shall see, he's already in his 7th year and has not won a single title, let alone multiple titles. He's already peaked athletically, so that part of his game (he relies a lot on his athletic gifts) will decline in a few yrs. He has a chance to surpass Duncan, but it will be tough to do so as Duncan has the leg up in titles, mvps, finals mvps, etc...

Jay_Dub
12-02-2009, 02:59 AM
first off this is a very weird question, don't know why you picked this group... guessing your in an all-time somewhere

Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Jerry West
Kobe Bryant
Julius Erving
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Lebron James
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard

That's assuming your talking about there all-time impact in the league. Lebron will most likely end up higher on this list, but that's not now. Paul and Howard don't really belong with the rest of these names. Bird and Robertson are a tie, Julius, Jerry and Kobe slightly behind.

Finally ... someone talking some sense. Not enough respect given to the big O in this thread.

ChiSox219
12-02-2009, 03:05 AM
Of course I know teams win titles, but it took a guy like Duncan to lead that team to titles. He was the driving force behind all of those titles as he clearly was the team's best player. I have seen a lot of teams have talent, but not win, so talent alone doesn't win rings....
As far as the Lebron is concerned, I can understand where you are coming from as he is a terrific talent, but as of right now, I would take Bird, Duncan, Kobe and Oscar over him.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread, in this context I could care less how many rings any of these guys have because they will not be playing with their real teammates. Bird won't have multiple HOFers. Kobe doesn't have Shaq, KG isn't stuck with Sprewell and Cassell.

Like I said, I would take Duncan over Lebron because I think it's easier to build around a big that can dominate the post, but after that I'm taking Lebron.



We shall see, he's already in his 7th year and has not won a single title, let alone multiple titles.

Jordan didn't win his first title until his 7th year. It took Kobe six years to win without Shaq and even then he had more talent and better coaching than Lebron has ever had, but I digress, let's not turn this into Kobe vs Lebron.



He's already peaked athletically, so that part of his game (he relies a lot on his athletic gifts) will decline in a few yrs.

Has he peaked athletically? I don't think so, and Truehoop's Kevin Arnovitz agrees:

LeBron James is considerably younger than Bryant, though already regarded as his equal (and, by some, his superior.) It's not unreasonable to expect that if James did nothing along the lines of creating a specialized summer workout regimen to strategically target some facet of his game, he'd still improve as a basketball player each of the next five or six years.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11119/lebron-james-how-to-perfect-the-nearly-perfect

I also don't think those gifts will decline in "a few years" unless by a few you mean something like 7-8 years. Did Kobe's athletic gifts decline a few years after he was 24? I don't think they have declined yet...

Lakersfan2483
12-02-2009, 03:13 AM
I mentioned it earlier in this thread, in this context I could care less how many rings any of these guys have because they will not be playing with their real teammates. Bird won't have multiple HOFers. Kobe doesn't have Shaq, KG isn't stuck with Sprewell and Cassell.

Like I said, I would take Duncan over Lebron because I think it's easier to build around a big that can dominate the post, but after that I'm taking Lebron.




Jordan didn't win his first title until his 7th year. It took Kobe six years to win without Shaq and even then he had more talent and better coaching than Lebron has ever had, but I digress, let's not turn this into Kobe vs Lebron.



Has he peaked athletically? I don't think so, and Truehoop's Kevin Arnovitz agrees:

LeBron James is considerably younger than Bryant, though already regarded as his equal (and, by some, his superior.) It's not unreasonable to expect that if James did nothing along the lines of creating a specialized summer workout regimen to strategically target some facet of his game, he'd still improve as a basketball player each of the next five or six years.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11119/lebron-james-how-to-perfect-the-nearly-perfect

I also don't think those gifts will decline in "a few years" unless by a few you mean something like 7-8 years. Did Kobe's athletic gifts decline a few years after he was 24? I don't think they have declined yet...

I don't see Lebron's athletic ability improving, it's just how the body works, nature will take it's course. Also, I wasn't stating that he's going to some how lose all athletic ability, but simply stating that as time goes by, the more mileage he puts on his body, the more wear and tear. If he continues to expand on his game as he is already doing, he will be fine. He just won't be as explosive as he was as a 24 or 25 year old (refering to when he turns 28 or 29) because he will have a lot of wear and tear on his body and will have logged tons of mins. (regular season and posteason mins.)

*BTW, Kobe is nowhere near as athletic as he was in 01-02 or 02-03, Kobe is a smarter player now and a better player, but he's not the same as he was athletically. Even in 2006 when he was putting up those gaudy numbers, he wasn't the same physically as say 02. It happens to every player as they get older and play more yrs. in the NBA.

barreleffact
12-02-2009, 03:18 AM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

duncan
kobe
bird
lerbon
paul
west
kg
erving
o
howard

$KnicksAndKobe$
12-02-2009, 05:49 AM
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
K.G
Lebron

Dunno about the other players stats or history that well, sorry
Will refuse to put up cp3 or Dwight.

kArSoN RyDaH
12-02-2009, 06:30 AM
why isnt michael jordan on this list?


1. mj
2. kobe
3.lebron
4.tim duncan
5.shaq
6.kareem
7.wilt
8.robertson
9.magic
10.bird

magichatnumber9
12-02-2009, 07:56 AM
Jerry West would probably be sent straight to the D league

magichatnumber9
12-02-2009, 07:56 AM
No Shaq?

D-Leethal
12-02-2009, 08:49 AM
suprised you didn't put derrick rose on the list

notoriouzzzz
12-02-2009, 09:05 AM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.
Slow down.... Bird was great! But Better than Kobe or James I don't know about that.. Bird has great players around him just magic did, so he was able to win all those championships. Alot of players on the 50 greatest player list played with Bird.

notoriouzzzz
12-02-2009, 09:11 AM
Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2007-08 23 CLE NBA 75 74 40.4 10.6 21.9 .484 1.5 4.8 .315 7.3 10.3 .712 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 1.8 1.1 3.4 2.2 30.0
2008-09 24 CLE NBA 81 81 37.7 9.7 19.9 .489 1.6 4.7 .344 7.3 9.4 .780 1.3 6.3 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 3.0 1.7 28.4

Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1984-85 28 BOS NBA 80 77 39.5 11.5 22.0 .522 0.7 1.6 .427 5.0 5.7 .882 2.1 8.5 10.5 6.6 1.6 1.2 3.1 2.6 28.7
1986-87 30 BOS NBA 74 73 40.6 10.6 20.2 .525 1.2 3.0 .400 5.6 6.1 .910 1.7 7.5 9.2 7.6 1.8 0.9 3.2 2.5 28.1
1987-88 31 BOS NBA 76 75 39.0 11.6 22.0 .527 1.3 3.1 .414 5.5 6.0 .916 1.4 7.8 9.3 6.1 1.6 0.8 2.8 2.1 29.9


Uhhh, the numbers don't back it up. You could argue either way... but to say that LeBron would **** on Bird just makes you look foolish.
hmm so ur just not showing the three stats most people actually pay attention too.. ppg, apg and rpg. nice way to prove ur point

notoriouzzzz
12-02-2009, 09:44 AM
why isnt michael jordan on this list?


1. mj
2. kobe
3.lebron
4.tim duncan
5.shaq
6.kareem
7.wilt
8.robertson
9.magic
10.bird
Is that a real question. of course anyone would pick MJ first. If you do that then Kobe would have to come second to MJ.
Yes bird was great, we're not talking about drafting player in the 80s, we're talking about drafting players in today's nba. As much as rings matter, so does ticket sales, so that's factor too. Bird and James standing together on draft night in today's NBA... any GM would pick James over Bird. Take Bird out and put James on those teams, they win for sure.. maybe more. Take James out and put bird on the team James had... how far do they go.

MJ is not on the List because put him in place of James or Bird on the respective teams they played on and he'll do better than either of em. Same with Kobe.. Call Kobe selfish but when he's had great players around him.. he's made it work. Put Jordan with scrubs and he'll take all the shots too.

Argue all you want. Keep everything constant and try to convince me James doesn't do better than Bird.

Ray_R
12-02-2009, 09:55 AM
Kobe
bird
lebron
dr j
duncan
west
oscar
garnett
Dwight
cp3

Padres Son
12-02-2009, 11:47 AM
hmm so ur just not showing the three stats most people actually pay attention too.. ppg, apg and rpg. nice way to prove ur point

Scroll to the right, genius.

JordansBulls
12-02-2009, 12:36 PM
Finally ... someone talking some sense. Not enough respect given to the big O in this thread.

He had one season of over 50 wins as the best player on the team and had to play 2nd fiddle to win a title.

ManRam
12-02-2009, 12:40 PM
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kobe
Lebron
Oscar Robertson
Garnett
Jerry West
Dr J
Dwight
Chris Paul

Super.
12-02-2009, 01:08 PM
Lebron would **** on Bird

:laugh:

Super.
12-02-2009, 01:11 PM
hmm so ur just not showing the three stats most people actually pay attention too.. ppg, apg and rpg. nice way to prove ur point

How many titles was Bird able to lead his team to? Something that LeBron has yet to accomplish ONCE.

That's probably the most important stat

Hawkeye15
12-02-2009, 01:24 PM
I had no problem with what you said about Kobe, and I'm far from a Laker fan (though I do enjoy watching Kobe).

The problem I saw with your post in the other thread was you criticizing Kobe for his shot selection while praising Bird's shot selection. And that relates to this thread when you started chastising people for not putting Bird in the top 3. That is why I questioned how much you really knew about Larry Bird and judging from your weak response, I'm guessing you don't have much of a leg to stand on, so I guess this discussion is over.

specifically what did I say? That him taking, and making a ridiculous shot that nobody else can hit is not basketball IQ? Bird did it too. He took terrible shots, that went in many times.
What do I know about Larry Bird? Do you want to discuss? I grew up watching him from about 1982 on. I did not see him play for Ind St, or really pay attention to his rookie or 2nd year, I was not old enough to care yet. I saw him play in person around 6 times in the 80's, and well over 100 times on television. He was the best player in the world from 1984-1986. Even with an elbow that basically felt like a hammer had hit is in 1985, he carried the Celts to the best record in the East, and was within earshot of beating the lakers in the finals. He recorded 5 straight 20/10/5 seasons, of which KG broke recently. He was the leader of arguably the greatest team to ever play in 1986. If you want to get more into his individual game, let me know brother

ChiSox219
12-02-2009, 01:25 PM
How many titles was Bird able to lead his team to? Something that LeBron has yet to accomplish ONCE.

That's probably the most important stat

Bird would not be paired with 3 HOFers + one good year of Bill Walton. I don't think he'd lead a team to a title with a Lebron James supporting cast which, if you are drafting this high, is about what your roster will look like.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2009, 01:31 PM
what copout would you have used if he didnt mention it also being a response to the IQ thread?

The finals mvp point is at least valid to discuss

Not sure what your constant beef is with me, other than that I don't kiss Kobe's butt. If you would ever like to use a valid response to me, I would be happy to validate it with a debate. At this point, you call me out on everything I say, with your bias. So you dont concern me. Lata

SteveNash
12-02-2009, 06:00 PM
How many titles was Bird able to lead his team to? Something that LeBron has yet to accomplish ONCE.

That's probably the most important stat

Bird only one three titles, with the talent that surrounded him, the Celtics should have won more if he was truly such a winner.

Besides that, LeBron is 24. Larry Bird didn't win his first title until he was 24. Didn't win his first MVP/Finals MVP until he was 27.

Larry Bird had:
Tiny Archibald: HoF
Dennis Johnson: Borderline HoF
Kevin McHale: HoF
Robert Parish: HoF

Boston had elite players at 4 positions throughout Bird's career.

LeBron has had....

Mo Williams, aging Shaq...

If anything, LeBron's more of a winner than Bird.


specifically what did I say? That him taking, and making a ridiculous shot that nobody else can hit is not basketball IQ? Bird did it too. He took terrible shots, that went in many times.
What do I know about Larry Bird? Do you want to discuss? I grew up watching him from about 1982 on. I did not see him play for Ind St, or really pay attention to his rookie or 2nd year, I was not old enough to care yet. I saw him play in person around 6 times in the 80's, and well over 100 times on television. He was the best player in the world from 1984-1986. Even with an elbow that basically felt like a hammer had hit is in 1985, he carried the Celts to the best record in the East, and was within earshot of beating the lakers in the finals. He recorded 5 straight 20/10/5 seasons, of which KG broke recently. He was the leader of arguably the greatest team to ever play in 1986. If you want to get more into his individual game, let me know brother

I don't know what you're point was, all I saw is you saying that Kobe taking shots while triple teamed doesn't mean he has a high bbiq. While praising Bird with seemingly no justification.

Being the best player in 84-86 (debatable) doesn't mean he should be drafted first now. You look at the closest we have to Bird now in Dirk (without the ball handling, but better scoring) and he isn't viewed as the unanimous number 1 pick, not close. He might not even make the top ten if he was included. Bird simply would not be an elite player in todays game he couldn't handle the speed and strength of todays game.

You bring up Bird's injury as an excuse, but that's really the story of Bird's career, whether it be elbow, back, feet, etc., he'd be a modern McGrady (with a weaker game). Definitely not #1, not top 3.

As for the 20/10/5 stat, if that was so important, why did you put KG at 7?

ChiSox219
12-02-2009, 06:28 PM
Bird only one three titles, with the talent that surrounded him, the Celtics should have won more if he was truly such a winner.

Besides that, LeBron is 24. Larry Bird didn't win his first title until he was 24. Didn't win his first MVP/Finals MVP until he was 27.

Larry Bird had:
Tiny Archibald: HoF
Dennis Johnson: Borderline HoF
Kevin McHale: HoF
Robert Parish: HoF

Boston had elite players at 4 positions throughout Bird's career.

LeBron has had....

Mo Williams, aging Shaq...

If anything, LeBron's more of a winner than Bird.



I don't know what you're point was, all I saw is you saying that Kobe taking shots while triple teamed doesn't mean he has a high bbiq. While praising Bird with seemingly no justification.

Being the best player in 84-86 (debatable) doesn't mean he should be drafted first now. You look at the closest we have to Bird now in Dirk (without the ball handling, but better scoring) and he isn't viewed as the unanimous number 1 pick, not close. He might not even make the top ten if he was included. Bird simply would not be an elite player in todays game he couldn't handle the speed and strength of todays game.

You bring up Bird's injury as an excuse, but that's really the story of Bird's career, whether it be elbow, back, feet, etc., he'd be a modern McGrady (with a weaker game). Definitely not #1, not top 3.

As for the 20/10/5 stat, if that was so important, why did you put KG at 7?

Very well said.

Padres Son
12-02-2009, 07:13 PM
Bird only one three titles, with the talent that surrounded him, the Celtics should have won more if he was truly such a winner.

Besides that, LeBron is 24. Larry Bird didn't win his first title until he was 24. Didn't win his first MVP/Finals MVP until he was 27.

Larry Bird had:
Tiny Archibald: HoF
Dennis Johnson: Borderline HoF
Kevin McHale: HoF
Robert Parish: HoF

Boston had elite players at 4 positions throughout Bird's career.

LeBron has had....

Mo Williams, aging Shaq...

If anything, LeBron's more of a winner than Bird.
Huh? What kind of reasoning is that? Bird had better teammates, so LeBron is more of a winner? So, I guess then Barkley is more of a winner than Jordan, right?

Bird won 3 titles and 3 MVP's... I love LeBron, but you sound like an idiot claiming that he's "more of a winner than Bird".


I don't know what you're point was, all I saw is you saying that Kobe taking shots while triple teamed doesn't mean he has a high bbiq. While praising Bird with seemingly no justification.

Being the best player in 84-86 (debatable) doesn't mean he should be drafted first now. You look at the closest we have to Bird now in Dirk (without the ball handling, but better scoring) and he isn't viewed as the unanimous number 1 pick, not close. He might not even make the top ten if he was included. Bird simply would not be an elite player in todays game he couldn't handle the speed and strength of todays game.

You bring up Bird's injury as an excuse, but that's really the story of Bird's career, whether it be elbow, back, feet, etc., he'd be a modern McGrady (with a weaker game). Definitely not #1, not top 3.

As for the 20/10/5 stat, if that was so important, why did you put KG at 7?

You almost made a convincing argument until the McGrady comment...

Bird played from 79-92. He retired less than 20 years ago... it's not as if they were all wearing Chuck Taylors and shooting at peach baskets back then. I don't know if you know this, but Jordan began his NBA career in 1984. That's only 5 years after Bird did. So if you think that Bird would be a weaker McGrady, then you probably think that Jordan would be a Larry Hughes in today's game.

philab
12-02-2009, 07:17 PM
So if you think that Bird would be a weaker McGrady, then you probably think that Jordan would be a Larry Hughes in today's game.

Whoa now, don't hate on Hughes. No one can hit the heels-on-the-arc two like Larry, not even Jordan.

caseyrh
12-02-2009, 07:24 PM
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Julius Erving

SteveNash
12-02-2009, 07:25 PM
Huh? What kind of reasoning is that? Bird had better teammates, so LeBron is more of a winner? So, I guess then Barkley is more of a winner than Jordan, right?

Bird won 3 titles and 3 MVP's... I love LeBron, but you sound like an idiot claiming that he's "more of a winner than Bird".

Uh no, Barkley is not more of a winner than Jordan.

Basically the point I'm trying to make is that Bird would have no championships if he was in LeBron's shoes.

You almost made a convincing argument until the McGrady comment...


Bird played from 79-92. He retired less than 20 years ago... it's not as if they were all wearing Chuck Taylors and shooting at peach baskets back then. I don't know if you know this, but Jordan began his NBA career in 1984. That's only 5 years after Bird did. So if you think that Bird would be a weaker McGrady, then you probably think that Jordan would be a Larry Hughes in today's game.

So lets see, Jordan is better than Bird and McGrady is way better than Hughes. So how did you twist this into thinking I'd think Jordan was worse than Hughes?

And it's not just because Bird played in the 80's that I'd think he'd be ineffective. Else I wouldn't have listed Robertson and West, players of the 60's ahead of him. It's Bird's style of play, something Jordan wouldn't have too much of an issue with.

caseyrh
12-02-2009, 07:28 PM
you guys can argue the rest of the list as much as you want but any arrangement of this group that doesnt start with Lebron first is crazy

Raph12
12-02-2009, 07:35 PM
Lebron would **** against Bird

There, fixed.

KnicksorBust
12-02-2009, 08:10 PM
It's like the further back in nba history you go the more the player gets disrespected. Larry Bird should be 3rd AT WORST on people's lists. Then we see guys like Jerry West and Oscar Robertson at the bottom?

If you were a top player in the 80s... you'd be lucky to be a #2 option now on a good team
If you were a top player in the 70s... you'd be lucky to be a starter

Padres Son
12-02-2009, 08:12 PM
So lets see, Jordan is better than Bird and McGrady is way better than Hughes. So how did you twist this into thinking I'd think Jordan was worse than Hughes?

And it's not just because Bird played in the 80's that I'd think he'd be ineffective. Else I wouldn't have listed Robertson and West, players of the 60's ahead of him. It's Bird's style of play, something Jordan wouldn't have too much of an issue with.

Yeah, you're right...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JndrIqHdB1A -- Bird with the game-winner over Jordan and Pippen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k -- Jordan 39 pts, Bird 44 pts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8S8cXV9E-Y -- Jordan 44 pts, Bird 30 pts, 9 ast

Bird and Jordan had some legendary showdowns... and for some reason you think that Jordan would still be great (the best?) in today's game, but Bird would be a weaker Tracy McGrady?

Bird in his prime vs T-Mac in his prime would be a joke. Bird would completely embarass him.

Larry Bird had a hunger and competitive drive that very few basketball players could match -- Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Kobe, etc. It's obvious that you didn't get a chance to actually see him play or you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. Bird wasn't the slow white guy he appears to be. The guy was ****ing ferocious. He had quick hands, unending stamina, unparallelled court vision and possibly the best shot the game's ever seen. It's a complete joke that you're comparing him to Dirk Nowitski and Tracy McGrady... they're not even in the same stratosphere as Bird.

SteveNash
12-02-2009, 08:58 PM
Yeah, you're right...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JndrIqHdB1A -- Bird with the game-winner over Jordan and Pippen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k -- Jordan 39 pts, Bird 44 pts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8S8cXV9E-Y -- Jordan 44 pts, Bird 30 pts, 9 ast

Bird and Jordan had some legendary showdowns... and for some reason you think that Jordan would still be great (the best?) in today's game, but Bird would be a weaker Tracy McGrady?

Bird in his prime vs T-Mac in his prime would be a joke. Bird would completely embarass him.

Since you want to just put selective highlights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_CGxj3dHGA McGrady 13 in 35 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvcBcQvPrCs McGrady 62 points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXKwEdnWwrc McGrady 52 points in 3 quarters

And Dominique dumped 57 on Jordan and the Bulls. So does that make Dominique better than Bird? Is Dominique top 3?


Larry Bird had a hunger and competitive drive that very few basketball players could match -- Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Kobe, etc. It's obvious that you didn't get a chance to actually see him play or you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. Bird wasn't the slow white guy he appears to be. The guy was ****ing ferocious. He had quick hands, unending stamina, unparallelled court vision and possibly the best shot the game's ever seen. It's a complete joke that you're comparing him to Dirk Nowitski and Tracy McGrady... they're not even in the same stratosphere as Bird.

Hunger and competitiveness only can take you so far. There are plenty of hungry players out their that never make the NBA sorry.

Glad you brought up Bird's athleticism though, that's something that gets underrated to try to portray Bird as harder worker than he is. Though you seem to go right around and overrate him. Unparalleled court vision really? Yeah, uh no.

And of course Bird's jumpshot is weak in todays NBA as most of todays NBA players are smarter than Bird and recognize the value of the three point shot.

You may have a point about them not being in the same stratosphere. I guess if Bird was the stratosphere, McGrady and Dirk would be the mesosphere.

ChiSox219
12-02-2009, 09:04 PM
Since you want to just put selective highlights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_CGxj3dHGA McGrady 13 in 35 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvcBcQvPrCs McGrady 62 points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXKwEdnWwrc McGrady 52 points in 3 quarters

And Dominique dumped 57 on Jordan and the Bulls. So does that make Dominique better than Bird? Is Dominique top 3?



Hunger and competitiveness only can take you so far. There are plenty of hungry players out their that never make the NBA sorry.

Glad you brought up Bird's athleticism though, that's something that gets underrated to try to portray Bird as harder worker than he is. Though you seem to go right around and overrate him. Unparalleled court vision really? Yeah, uh no.

And of course Bird's jumpshot is weak in todays NBA as most of todays NBA players are smarter than Bird and recognize the value of the three point shot.

You may have a point about them not being in the same stratosphere. I guess if Bird was the stratosphere, McGrady and Dirk would be the mesosphere.

:clap:


lol at that last line

KnicksorBust
12-02-2009, 09:21 PM
I don't understand all these excuses on why the all-time greats don't stand up. These are guys that can do everything. Jerry West could do anything you could possibly want out of a SG (including run point if you needed him too), he's one of the clutchest players ever and yet people think CP3 would have done even better? Outrageous.

Padres Son
12-02-2009, 09:51 PM
Glad you brought up Bird's athleticism though, that's something that gets underrated to try to portray Bird as harder worker than he is. Though you seem to go right around and overrate him. Unparalleled court vision really? Yeah, uh no.
"Yeah, uh no"? How am I supposed to have a reasonable debate with you when your argument against Bird's court vision is: Yeah, uh no.

Since you haven't refuted my assumption that you didn't actually get to see Bird play, it doesn't surprise me that you tend to dismiss his talents and yet have no support to back up your argument, I mean other than your insightful "yeah, uh no" claim.

He wasn't a hard worker? Give me an example... give me some sort of support for your argument.

He didn't have good court vision? Tell me why you don't think so. Do I have to beg for an intelligent conversation here?


And of course Bird's jumpshot is weak in todays NBA as most of todays NBA players are smarter than Bird and recognize the value of the three point shot. What does that mean? How is his jumpshot weak? The dude shot almost 50% from the field in his career and 37.6% from the line. The three point line was even in the league until his rookie year.

Bird didn't recognize the value of the three point shot? Are you new to the sport of basketball? The guy lead the league in 3-pt attempts and makes while shooting over 42% and winning the MVP in 84-85. Saying that he didn't recognize the value of a three-point shot is like saying Jason Kidd doesn't recognize the value of passing the ball.


You may have a point about them not being in the same stratosphere. I guess if Bird was the stratosphere, McGrady and Dirk would be the mesosphere.

Hooo boy. That is some witty science humor there. Maybe we should start a poll in the player comparison forum... "Who is the best out of these players: Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, or Larry Bird?" Hmmmm, I wonder who people would choose.

SteveNash
12-03-2009, 12:19 AM
"Yeah, uh no"? How am I supposed to have a reasonable debate with you when your argument against Bird's court vision is: Yeah, uh no.

un⋅par⋅al⋅leled [uhn-par-uh-leld] Show IPA
Use unparalleled in a Sentence
–adjective not paralleled; unequaled or unmatched; peerless; unprecedented: unparalleled athletic ability.

If you think Bird's court vision has no equal, that no player that has ever played the game is in the discussion. Then you're delusional and don't deserve much of a response.


Since you haven't refuted my assumption that you didn't actually get to see Bird play, it doesn't surprise me that you tend to dismiss his talents and yet have no support to back up your argument, I mean other than your insightful "yeah, uh no" claim.

Of course I've seen him play, I wouldn't rate him if I hadn't. And I certainly wouldn't go on about why I think he's inferior to others if I hadn't seen him play. That should be pretty obvious.


He wasn't a hard worker? Give me an example... give me some sort of support for your argument.

I didn't say he wasn't a hard worker, just that his work ethic was overrated. Because he didn't have a 40 inch vert or extreme quickness (you know skills you're born with and don't have to work to improve at all) people want to overrate his work ethic.


He didn't have good court vision? Tell me why you don't think so. Do I have to beg for an intelligent conversation here?

Good not unequaled.


What does that mean? How is his jumpshot weak? The dude shot almost 50% from the field in his career and 37.6% from the line. The three point line was even in the league until his rookie year.

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said weak. Just that in comparison to other top shooters in the NBA today. He shot 50% because he was much more of a post player than you seem to give him credit for. As for his 37.6 from 3, he made less than 1 a game. Last season, 74 players bested both his makes a game and his 3P%, so no it wouldn't hold up today.


Bird didn't recognize the value of the three point shot? Are you new to the sport of basketball? The guy lead the league in 3-pt attempts and makes while shooting over 42% and winning the MVP in 84-85. Saying that he didn't recognize the value of a three-point shot is like saying Jason Kidd doesn't recognize the value of passing the ball.

Should have taken more of them. Who cares if he led the league in a weak era. Again going back to todays NBA, 62 players last year made more 3s than Bird's career high.


Hooo boy. That is some witty science humor there. Maybe we should start a poll in the player comparison forum... "Who is the best out of these players: Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, or Larry Bird?" Hmmmm, I wonder who people would choose.

According to ******, the Raptors are going to win the Finals this year. I wouldn't place too much faith in polls.

J4KOP99
12-03-2009, 12:55 AM
This is what I do not understand in these "comparing players from different eras" arguments.

People claim Bird could not match up with players in today's NBA and he would not be nearly as good...

Well don't you think, if he played now, he would lift weights like everybody else, and shape his game around the style of play? He wouldn't just stay skinny and play the same way.

-I see Dirk being compared to Bird. Well let's flip the argument. Put Dirk back in time and play him during the 80's. Dirk flops/dances around the court every night and draws touch fouls all the time. Well, back then, there was no such thing as these ***** fouls that players of today draw. Those old Celtics/Lakers games were closer to a wrestling match than they were a basketball game. Bird was such an intelligent player, that even though he was undersized(much like gretzky in the strength category) he was so smart and knowledgable about the game that he figured out where and when to get his points.


Bird and all these other guys (oscar robertson, jerry west) would be just as good if not better if they played now. You guys are forgetting that they would not necessarily play/look like they did during their respective era's. They would hit the weight room, work on their three(if necessary) and do everything else players of today do.


It is absolutely ridiculous to say that a guy like Tracy McGrady who has never shown anything more than a few dominant scoring performances(he will never come close to winning anything) would be/is better than Larry Bird.

SteveNash
12-03-2009, 01:28 AM
This is what I do not understand in these "comparing players from different eras" arguments.

People claim Bird could not match up with players in today's NBA and he would not be nearly as good...

Again, if I was just looking at era's I wouldn't have put Robertson ahead of Paul would I.


Well don't you think, if he played now, he would lift weights like everybody else, and shape his game around the style of play? He wouldn't just stay skinny and play the same way.

Players lifted weights in the 80's and no I don't think he'd really bulk up that much.


-I see Dirk being compared to Bird. Well let's flip the argument. Put Dirk back in time and play him during the 80's. Dirk flops/dances around the court every night and draws touch fouls all the time. Well, back then, there was no such thing as these ***** fouls that players of today draw. Those old Celtics/Lakers games were closer to a wrestling match than they were a basketball game. Bird was such an intelligent player, that even though he was undersized(much like gretzky in the strength category) he was so smart and knowledgable about the game that he figured out where and when to get his points.

Did you not watch Bird flop around the court to draw fouls? And left me guess, you saw one highlight of McHale clotheslining Rambis and thought every possession was like that. These "wrestling matches" are just all in your head. As for Dirk, I think he would be very successful in the 80's. Although there are certainly players that wouldn't fit in the 80s.


It is absolutely ridiculous to say that a guy like Tracy McGrady who has never shown anything more than a few dominant scoring performances(he will never come close to winning anything) would be/is better than Larry Bird.

Give McGrady Bird's teams and watch him win.

J4KOP99
12-03-2009, 01:39 AM
Once you start telling me what I did and did not watch is when I stop posting in this thread.

-I find it ironic that your name is Steve Nash(a man with little to no athleticism, who has built his name off of understanding the game because he is not as physically gifted as others) yet you say a guy like Larry Bird is not as good as Tracy McGrady. Larry Bird and Steve Nash are very similar in their style of play and understanding of the game. If Steve Nash can be succesful in today's NBA, so can Larry Bird.


I saw one clothesline and that is why I say the games were very physical and resembled a wrestling match rather than the crap we see today? How many people have to say the same thing I said about the style of play during the 80's for you to believe it?

Players were not in the weight room nearly as much in the 80's compared to now. I don't even want to hear that argument. If Bird played now, he would be stronger. I don't know how you can argue that. Muscle and strength was not much of a focus back then as it is now.


Give McGrady Bird's teams and watch him win?

Are we just throwing out hypothetical idea's now? McGrady can't lead anything. What has McGrady ever done that would make you think he can lead a team to a championship?

Wrigheyes4MVP
12-03-2009, 01:50 AM
This list is too hard to make.

BTW...comparing McGrady to Bird is a federal crime.

Chronz
12-03-2009, 02:35 AM
Serious question, who were the guys best fitted to defend Bird in the 80's?

Compare those guys to the swings of the 90's+. Yes it wasnt a long time ago, but alot has changed since then. Look at it this way, defenses have been getting better since then to now, do you think its because the bigmen are more dominant? Its because the general length and athleticism on the perimeter is stronger. Perimeter players are covering more ground (personally I think its had an impact on the leagues rebounding levels throughout positions), there was no Scottie Pippen of the 80's. No Artest/MadMax, type. You had alot of offensive talent at SF, but almost all of them underachieved defensively. Nique shouldve been ALOT better defensively, Gervin in the 70's had the length but was built like a twig and never put forth the effort.

Dont get me wrong, there were guys with great length since the beginning, but they were typically from shorter players (West), or interior guys(Nate Thurmond/Russell). There was literally nobody like Bird in the game when he came in, 6"10+ perimeter skills, it takes time for the game to catch up with itself. There will never be another Bird, but there sure are a hell of alot more players who could defend him now than before. In this sense Bird lucked out, he never faced this kind of 1 on 1 obstacle on a daily basis.

Thats not to say Bird would be a worse player for it, offense have responded with superior shooting skillsets, which is why we have such a need for them. Bird claims he hates the overeliance on the 3pt shot in todays league, but he would find himself taking more if he played nowadays. Luckily for him hes still 6"10 and can get his shot off with any kind of space.

The way I see it, we saw the kind of player Bird would be if he were forced into a stationary role and limited in ISO situations, he still dominated games with passing and shooting alone. If Bird on a bad back could play like an All-Star, then prime Bird thrives in todays league. That said, hes still not better than Bron.

ChiSox219
12-03-2009, 02:57 AM
Serious question, who were the guys best fitted to defend Bird in the 80's?

Compare those guys to the swings of the 90's+. Yes it wasnt a long time ago, but alot has changed since then. Look at it this way, defenses have been getting better since then to now, do you think its because the bigmen are more dominant? Its because the general length and athleticism on the perimeter is stronger. Perimeter players are covering more ground (personally I think its had an impact on the leagues rebounding levels throughout positions), there was no Scottie Pippen of the 80's. No Artest/MadMax, type. You had alot of offensive talent at SF, but almost all of them underachieved defensively. Nique shouldve been ALOT better defensively, Gervin in the 70's had the length but was built like a twig and never put forth the effort.

Dont get me wrong, there were guys with great length since the beginning, but they were typically from shorter players (West), or interior guys(Nate Thurmond/Russell). There was literally nobody like Bird in the game when he came in, 6"10+ perimeter skills, it takes time for the game to catch up with itself. There will never be another Bird, but there sure are a hell of alot more players who could defend him now than before. In this sense Bird lucked out, he never faced this kind of 1 on 1 obstacle on a daily basis.

Thats not to say Bird would be a worse player for it, offense have responded with superior shooting skillsets, which is why we have such a need for them. Bird claims he hates the overeliance on the 3pt shot in todays league, but he would find himself taking more if he played nowadays. Luckily for him hes still 6"10 and can get his shot off with any kind of space.

The way I see it, we saw the kind of player Bird would be if he were forced into a stationary role and limited in ISO situations, he still dominated games with passing and shooting alone. If Bird on a bad back could play like an All-Star, then prime Bird thrives in todays league. That said, hes still not better than Bron.

What does your order look like?

Raph12
12-03-2009, 03:01 AM
Serious question, who were the guys best fitted to defend Bird in the 80's?

Compare those guys to the swings of the 90's+. Yes it wasnt a long time ago, but alot has changed since then. Look at it this way, defenses have been getting better since then to now, do you think its because the bigmen are more dominant? Its because the general length and athleticism on the perimeter is stronger. Perimeter players are covering more ground (personally I think its had an impact on the leagues rebounding levels throughout positions), there was no Scottie Pippen of the 80's. No Artest/MadMax, type. You had alot of offensive talent at SF, but almost all of them underachieved defensively. Nique shouldve been ALOT better defensively, Gervin in the 70's had the length but was built like a twig and never put forth the effort.

Dont get me wrong, there were guys with great length since the beginning, but they were typically from shorter players (West), or interior guys(Nate Thurmond/Russell). There was literally nobody like Bird in the game when he came in, 6"10+ perimeter skills, it takes time for the game to catch up with itself. There will never be another Bird, but there sure are a hell of alot more players who could defend him now than before. In this sense Bird lucked out, he never faced this kind of 1 on 1 obstacle on a daily basis.

Thats not to say Bird would be a worse player for it, offense have responded with superior shooting skillsets, which is why we have such a need for them. Bird claims he hates the overeliance on the 3pt shot in todays league, but he would find himself taking more if he played nowadays. Luckily for him hes still 6"10 and can get his shot off with any kind of space.

The way I see it, we saw the kind of player Bird would be if he were forced into a stationary role and limited in ISO situations, he still dominated games with passing and shooting alone. If Bird on a bad back could play like an All-Star, then prime Bird thrives in todays league. That said, hes still not better than Bron.

I agree, the era in which a player had played in, means a lot when comparing players of different times.

Chronz
12-03-2009, 04:23 AM
What does your order look like?

**** that bro, do you know the kind of brain power I would have to muster to even try and rank them under these pretenses. You would have to ask yourself whether you value someone having more transcendent years over other guys establishing a more prolonged level of dominance.

Like Kobe may go down as the best player to never clearly be the best player in the game. He was consistently in the top 2-5 throughout his career, and even top 10 in his developmental years. I think Id rather have that than someone being the best for 1 year and not lasting nearly as long as Kobe.

Chronz
12-03-2009, 04:24 AM
I agree, the era in which a player had played in, means a lot when comparing players of different times.

Yea but you over do it, Ive seen you liken Wilt to a less athletic Dwight Howard.

Raph12
12-03-2009, 04:28 AM
Yea but you over do it, Ive seen you liken Wilt to a less athletic Dwight Howard.

True, but I think that if guys like Shaq and Dwight were playing in the '60s and got the okay from their coach/franchise to do whatever they want on the court, both of them would be WAY better than Wilt stat-wise.

Chronz
12-03-2009, 04:37 AM
Yea not Dwight, and Shaq would have to stay in tip top shape throughout his career, not just his youth. I dont see him thriving like Wilt did in such a fast paced game, so basically you would have to change his entire life mantra to get him to stay as effective for as long as Wilt did. Im not saying its out of the question, considering Shaq took time off to relieve him of the pounding he took in the NBA's beefier league. A pounding he wouldnt have taken back in those days.

Just that Shaq and Wilt are comparable despite the difference in the leagues, and neither should ever be compared to one such as Dwight.

Raph12
12-03-2009, 04:51 AM
Yea not Dwight, and Shaq would have to stay in tip top shape throughout his career, not just his youth. I dont see him thriving like Wilt did in such a fast paced game, so basically you would have to change his entire life mantra to get him to stay as effective for as long as Wilt did. Im not saying its out of the question, considering Shaq took time off to relieve him of the pounding he took in the NBA's beefier league. A pounding he wouldnt have taken back in those days.

Just that Shaq and Wilt are comparable despite the difference in the leagues, and neither should ever be compared to one such as Dwight.

Dwight is different in the sense that he is not all about his strength, he relies on other aspects of his athleticism to support his game as well... but, I'm sure Howard could avg 20+rpg and 10+bpg easy in the '60s, avging 50ppg may not happen, but 30ppg isn't out of the question at all.

I agree, Shaq would have to stay in shape througout his career, but I'm sure he would be alot healthier since the guys grabbing him would be about half a foot shorter and 100lbs lighter.

Anyways I'm out for the night, peace.

KnicksorBust
12-03-2009, 07:35 AM
"Yeah, uh no"? How am I supposed to have a reasonable debate with you when your argument against Bird's court vision is: Yeah, uh no.

Since you haven't refuted my assumption that you didn't actually get to see Bird play, it doesn't surprise me that you tend to dismiss his talents and yet have no support to back up your argument, I mean other than your insightful "yeah, uh no" claim.

He wasn't a hard worker? Give me an example... give me some sort of support for your argument.

He didn't have good court vision? Tell me why you don't think so. Do I have to beg for an intelligent conversation here?

What does that mean? How is his jumpshot weak? The dude shot almost 50% from the field in his career and 37.6% from the line. The three point line was even in the league until his rookie year.

Bird didn't recognize the value of the three point shot? Are you new to the sport of basketball? The guy lead the league in 3-pt attempts and makes while shooting over 42% and winning the MVP in 84-85. Saying that he didn't recognize the value of a three-point shot is like saying Jason Kidd doesn't recognize the value of passing the ball.



Hooo boy. That is some witty science humor there. Maybe we should start a poll in the player comparison forum... "Who is the best out of these players: Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, or Larry Bird?" Hmmmm, I wonder who people would choose.

Exactly. Some people seem to think it's impossible for anyone whose prime wasn't in the 90s to compete today in todays game even though Bird combination of passing and shooting was unmatched during his era and there are plenty of players in todays game who excel despite lacking extreme athleticism. Bird is like the merging of Dirk and Nash's games + a killer instinct + uncanny ability to raise his game in the clutch moments.


un⋅par⋅al⋅leled [uhn-par-uh-leld] Show IPA
Use unparalleled in a Sentence
–adjective not paralleled; unequaled or unmatched; peerless; unprecedented: unparalleled athletic ability.

If you think Bird's court vision has no equal, that no player that has ever played the game is in the discussion. Then you're delusional and don't deserve much of a response.



Of course I've seen him play, I wouldn't rate him if I hadn't. And I certainly wouldn't go on about why I think he's inferior to others if I hadn't seen him play. That should be pretty obvious.



I didn't say he wasn't a hard worker, just that his work ethic was overrated. Because he didn't have a 40 inch vert or extreme quickness (you know skills you're born with and don't have to work to improve at all) people want to overrate his work ethic.



Good not unequaled.



Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said weak. Just that in comparison to other top shooters in the NBA today. He shot 50% because he was much more of a post player than you seem to give him credit for. As for his 37.6 from 3, he made less than 1 a game. Last season, 74 players bested both his makes a game and his 3P%, so no it wouldn't hold up today.



Should have taken more of them. Who cares if he led the league in a weak era. Again going back to todays NBA, 62 players last year made more 3s than Bird's career high.



According to ******, the Raptors are going to win the Finals this year. I wouldn't place too much faith in polls.

That's because today there are 3pt specialists who only come in to show 4-5 threes per game. Of those 62 how many can also handle the ball, create for teammates, post up, and win MVPs?


This is what I do not understand in these "comparing players from different eras" arguments.

People claim Bird could not match up with players in today's NBA and he would not be nearly as good...

Well don't you think, if he played now, he would lift weights like everybody else, and shape his game around the style of play? He wouldn't just stay skinny and play the same way.

-I see Dirk being compared to Bird. Well let's flip the argument. Put Dirk back in time and play him during the 80's. Dirk flops/dances around the court every night and draws touch fouls all the time. Well, back then, there was no such thing as these ***** fouls that players of today draw. Those old Celtics/Lakers games were closer to a wrestling match than they were a basketball game. Bird was such an intelligent player, that even though he was undersized(much like gretzky in the strength category) he was so smart and knowledgable about the game that he figured out where and when to get his points.


Bird and all these other guys (oscar robertson, jerry west) would be just as good if not better if they played now. You guys are forgetting that they would not necessarily play/look like they did during their respective era's. They would hit the weight room, work on their three(if necessary) and do everything else players of today do.


It is absolutely ridiculous to say that a guy like Tracy McGrady who has never shown anything more than a few dominant scoring performances(he will never come close to winning anything) would be/is better than Larry Bird.

Great post.

Padres Son
12-03-2009, 12:11 PM
un⋅par⋅al⋅leled [uhn-par-uh-leld] Show IPA
Use unparalleled in a Sentence
–adjective not paralleled; unequaled or unmatched; peerless; unprecedented: unparalleled athletic ability.

If you think Bird's court vision has no equal, that no player that has ever played the game is in the discussion. Then you're delusional and don't deserve much of a response.

Maybe not unparalleled in comparison to every player that's ever played... but it's not ridiculous to suggest that he had the best court vision of any forward ever. He was like 6-10 and averaged over 6 assists over his career. I don't think there's ever been any other player who averaged a double-double while dishing out that many assists. (I could be wrong, but I can't think of anyone else.)


Of course I've seen him play, I wouldn't rate him if I hadn't. And I certainly wouldn't go on about why I think he's inferior to others if I hadn't seen him play. That should be pretty obvious.

I didn't say he wasn't a hard worker, just that his work ethic was overrated. Because he didn't have a 40 inch vert or extreme quickness (you know skills you're born with and don't have to work to improve at all) people want to overrate his work ethic. I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic here. Are you really saying that quickness and vertical leap are things you're born with and don't have to work on? Seriously?

And why do you think his work ethic was overrated? You still haven't provided any sort of reasonable explanation for why you think that.

It's pretty well known that Bird was the first guy in the gym every day, shooting 200-300 shots before games, running miles on the track on off-days, and up running before the sun rose during the off-season. Do you think those are lies?


Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said weak. Just that in comparison to other top shooters in the NBA today. He shot 50% because he was much more of a post player than you seem to give him credit for. As for his 37.6 from 3, he made less than 1 a game. Last season, 74 players bested both his makes a game and his 3P%, so no it wouldn't hold up today.

Should have taken more of them. Who cares if he led the league in a weak era. Again going back to todays NBA, 62 players last year made more 3s than Bird's career high.

50% is still pretty damn good, even for a post player. And it's not weak in comparison to other top shooters in the NBA today. There are very few guys who aren't centers who shoot 50%.

As for his 3-pt attempts, I actually agree that he should have taken more. But the game was way different then. The 3-pt line came into the league the same year Bird did. His rookie year he shot 143 3-pts. That was 6th in the league. In 08-09 that would have been 134th in the league. He was one of the best 3-pt shooters in the game back then... they just didn't shoot very many threes.


According to ******, the Raptors are going to win the Finals this year. I wouldn't place too much faith in polls.

Yeah, but I don't think you'd find too many people who would agree with you that Dirk and T-Mac are better than Larry Bird. It's a ridiculous statement.

JordansBulls
12-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Serious question, who were the guys best fitted to defend Bird in the 80's?

Compare those guys to the swings of the 90's+. Yes it wasnt a long time ago, but alot has changed since then. Look at it this way, defenses have been getting better since then to now, do you think its because the bigmen are more dominant? Its because the general length and athleticism on the perimeter is stronger. Perimeter players are covering more ground (personally I think its had an impact on the leagues rebounding levels throughout positions), there was no Scottie Pippen of the 80's. No Artest/MadMax, type. You had alot of offensive talent at SF, but almost all of them underachieved defensively. Nique shouldve been ALOT better defensively, Gervin in the 70's had the length but was built like a twig and never put forth the effort.

Dont get me wrong, there were guys with great length since the beginning, but they were typically from shorter players (West), or interior guys(Nate Thurmond/Russell). There was literally nobody like Bird in the game when he came in, 6"10+ perimeter skills, it takes time for the game to catch up with itself. There will never be another Bird, but there sure are a hell of alot more players who could defend him now than before. In this sense Bird lucked out, he never faced this kind of 1 on 1 obstacle on a daily basis.

Thats not to say Bird would be a worse player for it, offense have responded with superior shooting skillsets, which is why we have such a need for them. Bird claims he hates the overeliance on the 3pt shot in todays league, but he would find himself taking more if he played nowadays. Luckily for him hes still 6"10 and can get his shot off with any kind of space.

The way I see it, we saw the kind of player Bird would be if he were forced into a stationary role and limited in ISO situations, he still dominated games with passing and shooting alone. If Bird on a bad back could play like an All-Star, then prime Bird thrives in todays league. That said, hes still not better than Bron.


Just look how hard it is too defend Dirk?

Hellcrooner
12-03-2009, 01:42 PM
1 BIRD

2 DUNCAN

3 RObertson

4 Dr J

5 West


6 Lebron

7 Garnett

8 Paul

9 Howard

10 Kobe



i cant rely beleive how IRRESPECTFULL are lists of people out there with Bird and Big O

Hellcrooner
12-03-2009, 01:44 PM
and if you are wondering if Bird could play in this era.

well think this way

he shot better than dirk , passed better than dirk had the same mobilyt and he actullay CARED to deffend and rebound.

go figure.

todu82
12-03-2009, 01:46 PM
1) Duncan
2) Bird
3) Lebron
4) Kobe
5) Garnett
6) Erving
7) Howard
8) West
9) Paul
10) Robertson

Hellcrooner
12-03-2009, 01:48 PM
oj and by the way those players in the 60s and 70s ahd something 99 out of 100 nba players today are missing.

IQ and FUNDAMENTALS.


FUndamentals are important see duncan takin on shaq in 03 for example or Pau taking on howard last year

Raidaz4Life
12-03-2009, 02:03 PM
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Tim Duncan
Jerry West
Julius Erving
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard




Just to let you know I have Lebron and Kobe at 1 & 2 because they both came out of high school at the age of 18 and if I was building my franchise I would take career longevity into consideration.

I personally believe Kobe will have a longer Career than Lebron

Lakerfrk
12-03-2009, 02:18 PM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Larry Bird
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Tim Duncan
5. Jerry West
6. Lebron James
7. Julius Erving
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Dwight Howard
10. Chris Paul

Chronz
12-03-2009, 02:21 PM
and if you are wondering if Bird could play in this era.

well think this way

he shot better than dirk , passed better than dirk had the same mobilyt and he actullay CARED to deffend and rebound.

go figure.

I dont think anybodies ever shot better than Dirk bro

fresh3def
12-03-2009, 02:31 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

for me, i'd put.

kobe bryant
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Dwight Howard
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul
Jullius Erving
Jerry West

xbrackattackx
12-03-2009, 03:22 PM
This list need "pistol Pete",MJ,Magic,Kareem and Shaq. Instead of Paul and Howard. Just saying. But good thread.

eugene
12-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Lebron James
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul

Turtle55
12-03-2009, 03:51 PM
As soon as I saw the title of this thread on the main page I knew who created it.

beldugo
12-03-2009, 03:56 PM
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Jerry West
Dwight Howard

GSRaider
12-03-2009, 03:56 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard



Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Dwight Howard
Lebron James
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Dr. J

nyybronxborn
12-03-2009, 04:26 PM
first the only person that should be in front of larry is jordan , and if you dont think so you only 12 or you know nothing about basketball

Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul

SteveNash
12-03-2009, 06:16 PM
Once you start telling me what I did and did not watch is when I stop posting in this thread.

Then stop making up things. Boston/Celtics were not close to wrestling matches, sorry. And if you consider them to be wrestling matches, then the 2008 Finals was a wrestling match.


-I find it ironic that your name is Steve Nash(a man with little to no athleticism, who has built his name off of understanding the game because he is not as physically gifted as others) yet you say a guy like Larry Bird is not as good as Tracy McGrady. Larry Bird and Steve Nash are very similar in their style of play and understanding of the game. If Steve Nash can be succesful in today's NBA, so can Larry Bird.

I'm not a Steve Nash fan. Second McGrady wasn't always the garbage you think he is now. Steve Nash is a far better shooter than Bird, plays a completely different position, and even then if adding Nash into the mix, I'd put him at 11th.


I saw one clothesline and that is why I say the games were very physical and resembled a wrestling match rather than the crap we see today? How many people have to say the same thing I said about the style of play during the 80's for you to believe it?

I'd would take someone to erase memories from my mind. Yes, there were a few RARE hard fouls, more than today. But some people act like those kinds of plays happened on every possession, they didn't.


Players were not in the weight room nearly as much in the 80's compared to now. I don't even want to hear that argument. If Bird played now, he would be stronger. I don't know how you can argue that. Muscle and strength was not much of a focus back then as it is now.

Because the game was faster paced and players were more focused on endurance than strength. Something that favors Bird's game, not hinders it. The point being, Bird could have lifted weights and gotten stronger if he felt the need to, he'd rather work on his shooting, and how many bulky shooters do you see in the NBA?


Give McGrady Bird's teams and watch him win?

Are we just throwing out hypothetical idea's now? McGrady can't lead anything. What has McGrady ever done that would make you think he can lead a team to a championship?

Prove that he's better than Bird.


Maybe not unparalleled in comparison to every player that's ever played... but it's not ridiculous to suggest that he had the best court vision of any forward ever. He was like 6-10 and averaged over 6 assists over his career. I don't think there's ever been any other player who averaged a double-double while dishing out that many assists. (I could be wrong, but I can't think of anyone else.)

Size, scoring, rebounding, height, and to some extent assists have little to do with rating how good a players court vision is.


I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic here. Are you really saying that quickness and vertical leap are things you're born with and don't have to work on? Seriously?

And why do you think his work ethic was overrated? You still haven't provided any sort of reasonable explanation for why you think that.

It's pretty well known that Bird was the first guy in the gym every day, shooting 200-300 shots before games, running miles on the track on off-days, and up running before the sun rose during the off-season. Do you think those are lies?

Of course I was being sarcastic.

Some people want to act like Bird's work ethic was actually unparalleled, it wasn't. There are plenty of stories about the first to arrive last to leave in the NBA. None of them get all the coverage and praise Bird does.


50% is still pretty damn good, even for a post player. And it's not weak in comparison to other top shooters in the NBA today. There are very few guys who aren't centers who shoot 50%.

As for his 3-pt attempts, I actually agree that he should have taken more. But the game was way different then. The 3-pt line came into the league the same year Bird did. His rookie year he shot 143 3-pts. That was 6th in the league. In 08-09 that would have been 134th in the league. He was one of the best 3-pt shooters in the game back then... they just didn't shoot very many threes.

FG% dropped as three point attempts rise. Had Bird taken more 3s he would have certainly had a lower career FG%. That's why comparing FG% of different era's isn't all that comparable.


Yeah, but I don't think you'd find too many people who would agree with you that Dirk and T-Mac are better than Larry Bird. It's a ridiculous statement.

1 in 5 American's think the Sun revolves around the Earth. And that's something that's proven to be false.

Hellcrooner
12-03-2009, 07:59 PM
I dont think anybodies ever shot better than Dirk bro

sta like players Bird and West and mabe even miller.

role players TON of them pity they didnt know how to do anything else than shoot for example Kerr

dhype14
12-03-2009, 08:24 PM
MICHAEL JORDAN =D hehehe

Padres Son
12-03-2009, 08:50 PM
Then stop making up things. Boston/Celtics were not close to wrestling matches, sorry. And if you consider them to be wrestling matches, then the 2008 Finals was a wrestling match.

I'm not a Steve Nash fan. Second McGrady wasn't always the garbage you think he is now. Steve Nash is a far better shooter than Bird, plays a completely different position, and even then if adding Nash into the mix, I'd put him at 11th.

I'd would take someone to erase memories from my mind. Yes, there were a few RARE hard fouls, more than today. But some people act like those kinds of plays happened on every possession, they didn't.

Because the game was faster paced and players were more focused on endurance than strength. Something that favors Bird's game, not hinders it. The point being, Bird could have lifted weights and gotten stronger if he felt the need to, he'd rather work on his shooting, and how many bulky shooters do you see in the NBA?

Prove that he's better than Bird.

Size, scoring, rebounding, height, and to some extent assists have little to do with rating how good a players court vision is.

Of course I was being sarcastic.

Some people want to act like Bird's work ethic was actually unparalleled, it wasn't. There are plenty of stories about the first to arrive last to leave in the NBA. None of them get all the coverage and praise Bird does.

FG% dropped as three point attempts rise. Had Bird taken more 3s he would have certainly had a lower career FG%. That's why comparing FG% of different era's isn't all that comparable.

1 in 5 American's think the Sun revolves around the Earth. And that's something that's proven to be false.

I'm tired of giving you reasons why your argument is ridiculous and getting a response back that's the equivalent of "well, you're wrong". I've asked you like 10 times to tell me WHY you think T-Mac and Dirk are better players than Bird.

Seriously, give me something to discuss or we're wasting our time. Think T-Mac was a better shooter? Scorer? Rebounder? Whatever... give me some stats, stories, video clips, ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR POINT.

So far what I've learned from you...

Bird's work ethic is overrated (with no evidence to back up this point)
Bird was a weak shooter (again no evidence to back this up)
Bird should have taken more three's (which I agree with but you compared his number of attempts to the number of attempts in today's game to prove your point, which is dumb because it's a completely different game)
Bird's court vision wasn't that good (no backup)
Bird's game wouldn't fit well in today's game (no explanation for why not)

I'm tired of defending my arguments and getting nothing back.

ChiSox219
12-03-2009, 09:10 PM
I watched that 3ot game from '86 last night, some interesting stuff.

Bird played at a time where there were regularly 5 white Americans on the court

Players were coked up, that's tough to play night in and night out and to play both ends of the court.

And Jordan threw up 35ppg on .535 in 87, don't think he could match that playing in today's league.

J4KOP99
12-03-2009, 10:13 PM
I'm tired of giving you reasons why your argument is ridiculous and getting a response back that's the equivalent of "well, you're wrong". I've asked you like 10 times to tell me WHY you think T-Mac and Dirk are better players than Bird.

Seriously, give me something to discuss or we're wasting our time. Think T-Mac was a better shooter? Scorer? Rebounder? Whatever... give me some stats, stories, video clips, ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR POINT.

So far what I've learned from you...

Bird's work ethic is overrated (with no evidence to back up this point)
Bird was a weak shooter (again no evidence to back this up)
Bird should have taken more three's (which I agree with but you compared his number of attempts to the number of attempts in today's game to prove your point, which is dumb because it's a completely different game)
Bird's court vision wasn't that good (no backup)
Bird's game wouldn't fit well in today's game (no explanation for why not)

I'm tired of defending my arguments and getting nothing back.


Just give up, it's not worth it. He uses zero substance in his arguments and half of his points do not even make any grammatical sense.

mikantsass
12-03-2009, 10:36 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Kobe
Dr J
Bird
Lebron
O
TD
West
Garnett
Paul
Howard

That is my order. Just out of curiosity, how did you pick those names?

dhype14
12-03-2009, 10:49 PM
MICHAEL JORDAN is the greatest basketball player of all time like Muhammad ALI but i think that guy Pacquaio is going to be on the same level like him.

boriquaabe
12-03-2009, 11:14 PM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.

Seriously!!! Bird was filthy. He could rebound better than Kobe, he could pass better than Kobe, He could shoot better than Kobe. Unbelievable!!!

Here's the real order of this draft:

Bird
James
Duncan
Robertson
Garnett
West
Bryant
Paul
Erving
Howard

Poeple have to seriously remember KObe won three championships with SHAQ in his prime!!!! I'll give him last year as the first Chip where he was the man to an extent.

If SHAQ and Olajuwon were included they would go 2 and 3 respectively and Magic and jordan would be taken before Bird!!! Nuff said.

effen5
12-03-2009, 11:18 PM
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Robertson
West
James
Garnett
Erving
Paul
Howard

Basing this off now. If LeBron improves like he should, he moves up obviously. Everyone else is deep into their careers or retired, outside my bottom 2, who I cant see climbing

agree with this one completely

BADizzleBoY
12-03-2009, 11:20 PM
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Dwight Howard
Jerry West

boriquaabe
12-03-2009, 11:27 PM
if anyone cares Bird shot 49% for his career and Nowitzki is shooting 47% up to this point.

redzone11
12-03-2009, 11:37 PM
Kobe
Oscar
Bird
Duncan
West
Lebron
Dr. J
Garnett
Howard
CP3

SteveNash
12-03-2009, 11:57 PM
I'm tired of giving you reasons why your argument is ridiculous and getting a response back that's the equivalent of "well, you're wrong". I've asked you like 10 times to tell me WHY you think T-Mac and Dirk are better players than Bird.

Seriously, give me something to discuss or we're wasting our time. Think T-Mac was a better shooter? Scorer? Rebounder? Whatever... give me some stats, stories, video clips, ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR POINT.

What evidence have you given that Bird would be elite in todays NBA. Three highlights from Bird against the Bulls?

McGrady in his prime was simply a much better player in todays NBA. Bird's main advantage is his production in the paint making the comparison more difficult, his toughness mentally and physically, and his shooting in an empty gym (McGrady would be much better at getting quality looks during games).

The main problem is him being stuck between the SF/PF position. I can't remember if it was you or someone else, but I don't see Bird being able to put on enough weight to actually play the PF position. Forcing him to play SF where he'd be a revolving door on defense. Have trouble penetrating. Have is post up game be neutralized if he didn't have the right team mates around him. And turn him into more of a jump-shooter. Sorry, that's not who I'd take as a top pick in a draft to build your franchise around.


So far what I've learned from you...

Bird's work ethic is overrated (with no evidence to back up this point)

A players work ethic is pretty much subjective since it's not like you can follow their workouts on camera like you can in game. So I don't really think there's any evidence to bring.


Bird was a weak shooter (again no evidence to back this up)

That I've proven.


Bird should have taken more three's (which I agree with but you compared his number of attempts to the number of attempts in today's game to prove your point, which is dumb because it's a completely different game)

I thought we were drafting for the now, not the past. Yes, it's a different game which is the whole point of this discussion.


Bird's court vision wasn't that good (no backup)

What was your back up? That Bird had the greatest court vision of all time? And this was proven because he was 6'10", a Forward, averaged more than 10 points in his career. Averaged 10 rebounds in his career, averaged more than 6 APG in his career. Please tell me how height, position, points scored, rebounds prove that Bird is the NBA player with the greatest court vision of all time. Then there's the assists category, which is surpassed by plenty of players including Magic who had nearly double the assists but doesn't count I guess because he was good enough to play PG.


Bird's game wouldn't fit well in today's game (no explanation for why not)

See above.


I'm tired of defending my arguments and getting nothing back.

Where exactly have you substantiated your arguments? That Bird was good in the 80s? Different era, different makeup, different style of play.


Just give up, it's not worth it. He uses zero substance in his arguments and half of his points do not even make any grammatical sense.

Sorry, could you point out the grammatical mistakes I've made and I'll try to correct/clear up them.

I'll also try to be as insightful as you were in this post: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11554014&postcount=8

From now on.

PLAYERS FAN
12-04-2009, 12:02 AM
Seriously!!! Bird was filthy. He could rebound better than Kobe, he could pass better than Kobe, He could shoot better than Kobe. Unbelievable!!!

Here's the real order of this draft:

Bird
James
Duncan
Robertson
Garnett
West
Bryant
Paul
Erving
Howard

Poeple have to seriously remember KObe won three championships with SHAQ in his prime!!!! I'll give him last year as the first Chip where he was the man to an extent.

If SHAQ and Olajuwon were included they would go 2 and 3 respectively and Magic and jordan would be taken before Bird!!! Nuff said.

Shaq never won a title being the main without Kobe. Kobe won a title being the main man without Shaq! KOBE WIN:D

Hellcrooner
12-04-2009, 12:13 AM
I watched that 3ot game from '86 last night, some interesting stuff.

Bird played at a time where there were regularly 5 white Americans on the court

Players were coked up, that's tough to play night in and night out and to play both ends of the court.

And Jordan threw up 35ppg on .535 in 87, don't think he could match that playing in today's league.



for gods sake


Johnsn, scott, Nixon, Wiulkes, Kareem, Wrohty, mcadoo, thompson all BLaCK

Jordan, Pippen, hodgs, cartwright, vincent, all BLACK

Ewing, strickland, Jackson, Oakley all BLACK


Rickey pirece, alvin robertson, pressey all BLACK

Moses malone, cheeks, jones, dr J, Barkley later all BLACK,



in Birds era the only other white players playing some important roles where Vandewehge, Chambers, Mchale( on his team) , smits and schrempf.

ChiSox219
12-04-2009, 12:17 AM
for gods sake


Johnsn, scott, Nixon, Wiulkes, Kareem, Wrohty, mcadoo, thompson all BLaCK

Jordan, Pippen, hodgs, cartwright, vincent, all BLACK

Ewing, strickland, Jackson, Oakley all BLACK


Rickey pirece, alvin robertson, pressey all BLACK

Moses malone, cheeks, jones, dr J, Barkley later all BLACK,



in Birds era the only other white players playing some important roles where Vandewehge, Chambers, Mchale( on his team) , smits and schrempf.

Of course there were few white players in important roles, they suck at basketball! My point, is at any given point, you could see 5 white americans on the court at one time (remember they suck) during the 80s, I can't think of a time that happened over the last decade.

Hellcrooner
12-04-2009, 12:55 AM
^i think toronto may have had that in recent years.

or utah.


but in those times 80% where already black americans so is vey hard to find a team that had 5 whites at the same time even then.
except for.....uh well.


the CELtiCS!!!! wich we all know sucked because they where filled with white guys including the franchise player and the leutenant, yeah they sucked so bad..... in the 80s

ChiSox219
12-04-2009, 02:44 AM
^i think toronto may have had that in recent years.

or utah.


but in those times 80% where already black americans so is vey hard to find a team that had 5 whites at the same time even then.
except for.....uh well.


the CELtiCS!!!! wich we all know sucked because they where filled with white guys including the franchise player and the leutenant, yeah they sucked so bad..... in the 80s

Toronto has started foreign players, likewise for Utah, I clearly stated American born. The Pacers have a bunch of white guys now, but that's for obvious reasons outside of basketball.

I give you this:


It it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American.

The one thing that always bothered me when I played in the NBA was I really got irritated when they put a white guy on me. I still don't understand why. A white guy would come out (and) I would always ask him: 'What, do you have a problem with your coach? Did your coach do this to you?' And he'd go, 'No,' and I'd say, 'Come on, you got a white guy coming out here to guard me; you got no chance.' ... For some reason, that always bothered me when I was playing against a white guy.

As far as playing, I didn't care who guarded me -- red, yellow, black. I just didn't want a white guy guarding me. Because it's disrespect to my game.

rocky4104
12-04-2009, 03:05 AM
and bird would outsmart the **** out of lebron

exactly.. and trash talk him all the way to the dressing room, and make lebron work very hard on D

i remember one game wherein he told his defender exactly what he's gonna do... what kind of shot and exactly where... he actually did just that and still made the shot.. forgot the other guy but he was the one talking about it

he made the celts better on his very first year, his rookie year! against all the other talents at that time. the guy's a winner

notoriouzzzz
12-04-2009, 02:08 PM
you guys can argue the rest of the list as much as you want but any arrangement of this group that doesnt start with Lebron first is crazy
Did u know Kobe was just voted #1 out of 50 best players in the NBA right now.. James should be high up there.. but he's gonna need at least one championship validate himself as #1.

notoriouzzzz
12-04-2009, 02:14 PM
Actually it's the style of play of those athletes that might not fit into today's nba. If those players from 60s play as fast and strong as it is now. Then they can potentially be MVPs. Bird's style doesn't fit into what nba is now as it did in the 80s. Chamberlain will not dominate today's nba, the way he did in his days. Dwight Howard or Shaq in his prime would have done similar damage Chamberlain did if they played in his days.

notoriouzzzz
12-04-2009, 02:16 PM
It's like the further back in nba history you go the more the player gets disrespected. Larry Bird should be 3rd AT WORST on people's lists. Then we see guys like Jerry West and Oscar Robertson at the bottom?

If you were a top player in the 80s... you'd be lucky to be a #2 option now on a good team
If you were a top player in the 70s... you'd be lucky to be a starter
Actually it's the style of play of those athletes that might not fit into today's nba. If those players from 60s play as fast and strong as it is now. Then they can potentially be MVPs. Bird's style doesn't fit into what nba is now as it did in the 80s. Chamberlain will not dominate today's nba, the way he did in his days. Dwight Howard or Shaq in his prime would have done similar damage Chamberlain did if they played in his days.

Chronz
12-04-2009, 02:25 PM
if anyone cares Bird shot 49% for his career and Nowitzki is shooting 47% up to this point.

WOW Dirk is awesome

Chronz
12-04-2009, 02:28 PM
exactly.. and trash talk him all the way to the dressing room, and make lebron work very hard on D

i remember one game wherein he told his defender exactly what he's gonna do... what kind of shot and exactly where... he actually did just that and still made the shot.. forgot the other guy but he was the one talking about it

he made the celts better on his very first year, his rookie year! against all the other talents at that time. the guy's a winner
You think if Larry does that now, the defender is athletic enough to block his shot?

notoriouzzzz
12-04-2009, 02:32 PM
1 BIRD

2 DUNCAN

3 RObertson

4 Dr J

5 West


6 Lebron

7 Garnett

8 Paul

9 Howard

10 Kobe



i cant rely beleive how IRRESPECTFULL are lists of people out there with Bird and Big O
Just the fact that u have kobe as #10 (howard and paul over kobe) just lost u ur opinion giving rights for the rest of ur life. You should stop watching NBA and start watching curling! seek medical attention

Gorgon2k
12-04-2009, 02:34 PM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.

:facepalm:

notoriouzzzz
12-04-2009, 02:38 PM
first the only person that should be in front of larry is jordan , and if you dont think so you only 12 or you know nothing about basketball

Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Based how high u rate MJ.. the only player on that list that even comes close to MJ is Kobe Bryant. Who else on that list gets compared to Jordan. Impact, Drive, Killer instinct.. Why is Kobe half way on ur list. That would put Jordan just above him.

Gorgon2k
12-04-2009, 02:38 PM
While LeBron may end up better than Bird, give me a break. Bird won his team a ring in his second year, bringing them back againt Dr J and Bobbie Jones from a 3-1 hole, and then kicked the crap out of the Rockets in the finals. Larry Bird is a top 3 player ever in my book and easily considered a top 10 player ever, worst case. LeBron has a ways to go. Bird dominated athletes back then, he would do it now. With the no hand check rule, Bird would be destroying the league now, just like he did then.

Ok and Lebron has had who? Give him Parrish and McHale in their prime, you will see a different result. As the total package, Lebron will be the best basketball player ever, when it's all said and done. Now im not saying he will have the most titles, or records, etc because ALOT has to do with your supporting cast, but factor in ability and intangibles(size, athleticism, etc.) and he is and will be better than Larry Bird and anyone on that list.

notoriouzzzz
12-04-2009, 02:44 PM
Seriously!!! Bird was filthy. He could rebound better than Kobe, he could pass better than Kobe, He could shoot better than Kobe. Unbelievable!!!

Here's the real order of this draft:

Bird
James
Duncan
Robertson
Garnett
West
Bryant
Paul
Erving
Howard

Poeple have to seriously remember KObe won three championships with SHAQ in his prime!!!! I'll give him last year as the first Chip where he was the man to an extent.

If SHAQ and Olajuwon were included they would go 2 and 3 respectively and Magic and jordan would be taken before Bird!!! Nuff said.
People like you seem to forget.. Great Championship games most of the time come down to clutch play, the last 3 - 5 mins of the 4th quarter.. Shaq couldn't be trusted with making those free throws.. Most of the time he had to come out of the game. Kobe had to do his thing clutch thing to get that ring.. Ask Shaq what the story was when he won one with Wade. if Wade could have one with Shaq aging.. Heck ya! Kobe would have won if Shaq had kept his ego in check and let the mamba strike with full force

Chaudhry
12-04-2009, 02:57 PM
this depends on alot of things... whose on my team currently? if i've got a solid PG then i'll take bird, duncan, garnett or howard... if my team needs an interior presecne then howard or garnett...

vice versa if I have solid bigmen then i'm taking paul, oscar or west... If I have a solid team and just need a player to go out and play then i'm taking kobe, bird or dr. J...

If i have no one and my entire team sucks... then i'm taking lebron...

if we're starting from scratch... then i'm probably taking lebron... cause i feel he's easier to build on... or duncan/garnett big men are naturally easier to build around...

lets take an example... My favorite team is Houston... if I were the Rockets and I had a pick in next years draft...

my draft board would look like this



Tim Duncan (biggest hole for the rockets with yao out is interior defense... It's a toss up between TD and KG... it was heads so TD)
Kevin Garnett (see TD)
Larry Bird (with the ball movement Rockets have he'll be getting tons of shots... and when their in a slump he won't be... quite possibly the best shooter to every play the game... but could to alot more thats overlooked (avged 6ast and 10reb))
Lebron James (don't need a ball handler in houston... but it's lebron...)
Kobe Bryant (same as lebron... don't need this type of player... but it's kobe)
Julius Erving (no where else to put him... better then guys below... not as good as those above (for houston))
Oscar Robertson (I'm biased against anyone who played before the 80s...)
Chris Paul (houston doesn't need ball handlers, their best when everyone is doing everything, and i like aaron brooks)
Jerry West (see oscar robertson)
Dwight Howard (don't feel he'd fit in houston... especially with yao back... and not a big fan)

Nighthawk
12-04-2009, 03:00 PM
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Julius Erving
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard

Aliengames
12-04-2009, 11:33 PM
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I pick Oscar because he's the best Point Guard.

JordansBulls
12-05-2009, 12:22 AM
1 BIRD

2 DUNCAN

3 RObertson

4 Dr J

5 West


6 Lebron

7 Garnett

8 Paul

9 Howard

10 Kobe



i cant rely beleive how IRRESPECTFULL are lists of people out there with Bird and Big O

Kobe 10th bro?

JordansBulls
12-05-2009, 11:13 PM
If I'm starting a team from scratch, I pick Oscar because he's the best Point Guard.

Which means exactly what?

ManRam
12-06-2009, 01:47 AM
Which means exactly what?

Seriously. I can't remember the last time the team with the best point guard in the league won the championship. I think a star who is a wing player or a big man is more important than a PG.

JordansBulls
12-06-2009, 11:06 AM
Seriously. I can't remember the last time the team with the best point guard in the league won the championship. I think a star who is a wing player or a big man is more important than a PG.

Isiah Thomas in 1990 and Magic in 1988.

JasonJohnHorn
12-06-2009, 11:47 AM
how old are some of you? Bird isnt even in the top 3 for some of you. Really??? He is better than anyone playing today.

I love Bird to, but bottom line is the guy couldn't play defence. In the 80's, when everybody was scoring 110 a game that wasn't a big deal because there were a lot of possessions, but Bird's game wouldn't translate to the game today as smoothly as you might think considering that the league focuses on defence more and has fewer possessions a game. Please don't take that to mean I don't have the greatest respect for Bird, because I do.


My first pick would be Tim Duncan and after that I have no clue. Duncan is an obvious pick because he's a big man that rebounds, defends, shoots well, has a great post up game and can facilitate and pass the ball. That is everythign you need in a big man, and big men are the hardest position to fill in the league so they are the best to build around.

Second: LBJ. I know the Big O put up the triple double every night and many people compare these two, but bottom line is LBJ is made for a bigger league and he is more of a power player than was the big O. I'd likely say the Big O was a better player over all, but the league had more possessions back then and it was smaller. Robertson would have a hard time guard a lot of gaurds or small forwards today given his size, though he was respected as a top tier defensive player by his peers.


Third: Garnett, but only if he didn't demand a huge contract that would take up have the cap space and prevent me from adding pieces around him to contend. Garnett's biggest problem with the T-Wolves was the contract. I know he deserved every penny, and the team should have been able to build through the draft and via the mid-level exception, which the GM (McHale) just couldn't seem to do, but the huge contract was a huge hinderance for building a team around him. Other than that issue Garnett is an ideal player to build a team around.

Fourth: Howard. Howard is NOT better than the other guys I would draft him over, in fact I'd say in terms of his all around game he would be at the bottom of this list, but interior defence and dominant rebounding are two main ingredience to winning and that makes Howard a great base to build around. A great guard like Kobe, or Dr. J or the Big O can play an entire career without a big man and neverr have a chance to win a title, so teams are usually in the right to draft big men over shooting guards. Look at how Wade and Kobe have struggled to win games when they don't have a quality big man. The Big O didn't win one until he played with Kareem. West needed Wilt and Baylor. Kobe needed Shaq or Gasol. No matter how great the guard is, he's going to have a hell of a time winning without a big man, which is why Jordan saw Hakeem and Sam Bowie drafted over him and why guy like Oden and Ol-la-Candy get draft high in the draft when there are better over all players in the draft. Teams know they need to take a gamble on big men because they are the hardest piece of the puzzle to fill. Jordan is the only shooting guard who I can think of who won without a dominant big man, but he had the best rebounder in the league in Rodman, and hte first three titles he had a solid vet in the middle in Cartwright and a tough nosed rebounder in Horace Grant, while many centers, with incomplete games, have been able to win titles with shooting guards that were not in the league's elite (see Ben Wallace and Wes Unseld).

The rest of the list is purely academic, because if any of these guys didn't have quality big men, none of them would have been able to win.

Larry Bird (Parish and McHale)
Kobe Bryant (Shaq and Gasol)
Oscar Robertson (Kareem)
Jerry West (Wilt and Baylor)
Chris Paul: (no big man, no rings)
Julius Erving: (Moses Malone)

Chronz
12-06-2009, 03:16 PM
Isiah Thomas in 1990 and Magic in 1988.

Who did you find most responsible for the 1989 championship?

CB4AB7VC15
12-06-2009, 04:48 PM
MJ
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LBJ

Hawkeye15
12-06-2009, 05:05 PM
Ok and Lebron has had who? Give him Parrish and McHale in their prime, you will see a different result. As the total package, Lebron will be the best basketball player ever, when it's all said and done. Now im not saying he will have the most titles, or records, etc because ALOT has to do with your supporting cast, but factor in ability and intangibles(size, athleticism, etc.) and he is and will be better than Larry Bird and anyone on that list.

anyone who will be a lot better than Larry Bird would have won a title by his 6th season in the NBA, despite the roster.

Hawkeye15
12-06-2009, 05:07 PM
I love Bird to, but bottom line is the guy couldn't play defence. In the 80's, when everybody was scoring 110 a game that wasn't a big deal because there were a lot of possessions, but Bird's game wouldn't translate to the game today as smoothly as you might think considering that the league focuses on defence more and has fewer possessions a game. Please don't take that to mean I don't have the greatest respect for Bird, because I do.


My first pick would be Tim Duncan and after that I have no clue. Duncan is an obvious pick because he's a big man that rebounds, defends, shoots well, has a great post up game and can facilitate and pass the ball. That is everythign you need in a big man, and big men are the hardest position to fill in the league so they are the best to build around.

Second: LBJ. I know the Big O put up the triple double every night and many people compare these two, but bottom line is LBJ is made for a bigger league and he is more of a power player than was the big O. I'd likely say the Big O was a better player over all, but the league had more possessions back then and it was smaller. Robertson would have a hard time guard a lot of gaurds or small forwards today given his size, though he was respected as a top tier defensive player by his peers.


Third: Garnett, but only if he didn't demand a huge contract that would take up have the cap space and prevent me from adding pieces around him to contend. Garnett's biggest problem with the T-Wolves was the contract. I know he deserved every penny, and the team should have been able to build through the draft and via the mid-level exception, which the GM (McHale) just couldn't seem to do, but the huge contract was a huge hinderance for building a team around him. Other than that issue Garnett is an ideal player to build a team around.

Fourth: Howard. Howard is NOT better than the other guys I would draft him over, in fact I'd say in terms of his all around game he would be at the bottom of this list, but interior defence and dominant rebounding are two main ingredience to winning and that makes Howard a great base to build around. A great guard like Kobe, or Dr. J or the Big O can play an entire career without a big man and neverr have a chance to win a title, so teams are usually in the right to draft big men over shooting guards. Look at how Wade and Kobe have struggled to win games when they don't have a quality big man. The Big O didn't win one until he played with Kareem. West needed Wilt and Baylor. Kobe needed Shaq or Gasol. No matter how great the guard is, he's going to have a hell of a time winning without a big man, which is why Jordan saw Hakeem and Sam Bowie drafted over him and why guy like Oden and Ol-la-Candy get draft high in the draft when there are better over all players in the draft. Teams know they need to take a gamble on big men because they are the hardest piece of the puzzle to fill. Jordan is the only shooting guard who I can think of who won without a dominant big man, but he had the best rebounder in the league in Rodman, and hte first three titles he had a solid vet in the middle in Cartwright and a tough nosed rebounder in Horace Grant, while many centers, with incomplete games, have been able to win titles with shooting guards that were not in the league's elite (see Ben Wallace and Wes Unseld).

The rest of the list is purely academic, because if any of these guys didn't have quality big men, none of them would have been able to win.

Larry Bird (Parish and McHale)
Kobe Bryant (Shaq and Gasol)
Oscar Robertson (Kareem)
Jerry West (Wilt and Baylor)
Chris Paul: (no big man, no rings)
Julius Erving: (Moses Malone)


Bird's defensive game was underrated. He is widely known as a bad defender, when in reality, his defensive rating was on par for Mr. James. He was a good team defender, a very good defensive rebounder, and was so smart, he was in position to deflect passes, and disrupt. Could have be taken in isolation? Sure. But he was a FAR better defender then he gets credit for. Ask Thomas and the Pistons how horrible of a defender Bird is after the 87' playoffs.

JordansBulls
12-06-2009, 06:49 PM
Who did you find most responsible for the 1989 championship?

Dumars, Isiah, Rodman and Laimbeer pretty much were equal with the slight edge to Dumars.

Jay_Dub
12-07-2009, 12:58 AM
I found this video which might be interesting to use to compare people who have never seen the big O or jerry west play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLJXqmBos9g

Jay_Dub
12-07-2009, 01:05 AM
He had one season of over 50 wins as the best player on the team and had to play 2nd fiddle to win a title.

Hey JB here's a video that talks about the big O. There's a reason why he only won 50 games, cause he played on a very ****** team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CXzjhIthms&feature=related

Jay_Dub
12-07-2009, 01:10 AM
And in the 61-62 season he averaged 12.5 rebounds, 11.4 assists, and 30.8 points per game. Those numbers are crazy!!! I can understand if you are putting guys like Kobe, Lebron and Bird over him, because he did play in a different era, but I can't understand how people would put him 7th or lower on the list.

Raph12
12-07-2009, 02:01 AM
And in the 61-62 season he averaged 12.5 rebounds, 11.4 assists, and 30.8 points per game. Those numbers are crazy!!! I can understand if you are putting guys like Kobe, Lebron and Bird over him, because he did play in a different era, but I can't understand how people would put him 7th or lower on the list.

Times have changed dude, nowadays he'd be lucky to get 20-6-6.

LA_Raiders
12-07-2009, 02:40 AM
Kobe
TD
West
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Dr J
KG
CP
Dwight
LeBroom

JordansBulls
12-07-2009, 09:32 AM
Hey JB here's a video that talks about the big O. There's a reason why he only won 50 games, cause he played on a very ****** team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CXzjhIthms&feature=related

It still doesn't change the fact he had to win a title with a player better than him on his team that was in his absolute prime.

Jay_Dub
12-07-2009, 01:49 PM
It's debatable if he was the 2nd best player on that team. He was 32, and Kareem did lead team in scoring at about 30 a game, but here's an interesting quote I found about the 71 finals.


The Bucks became just the second team to sweep the finals, with the series ending in an 118-106 victory in Game 4 at the Baltimore Arena, in Baltimore. At the age of 32, playing in his 886th NBA game. Robertson controlled the clincher, scoring 21 of his game-high 30 points in the first half when the Bucks built a 60-47 lead.

He finished 11-of-15 from the field, 8-of-9 from the foul line and had nine assists. "Oscar Robertson?" said Bucks coach Larry Costello "You can't describe him. I can't. He was unbelievable."

Though Alcindor dominated in both the regular season and Finals, guard Jon McGlocklin said, "Oscar was the key for us. He comes to play, he runs the team. He's it."

As the Bucks celebrated in the locker room, Robertson said, "This is the first champagne I've ever had, and it tastes mighty sweet. We won the title in high school, but it was soft drinks then. This is the big leagues, man."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_NBA_Finals

Hellcrooner
12-07-2009, 02:00 PM
It still doesn't change the fact he had to win a title with a player better than him on his team that was in his absolute prime.
then i guess scotie pippen is a worst player than chauncey billups?


the "x player is not as good because he won as second fiddle" thing is sickening unfair and STUPID.

Hawkeye15
12-07-2009, 02:07 PM
^well, I think there is something to it. Which is why when Kobe won last year, I considered him to move up a ways in the all time rankings. If you don't win a ring as clear cut top dog on the team, I just don't think you can be considered for a top 10 player for example. There are a few teams where it is not distinguishable, but those are few and far between.
And the Pistons didn't have a clear cut best player imo.

Hellcrooner
12-07-2009, 02:23 PM
^i hope you mean a top ten player all time.


because there are not 10 ACTIVE players right now who had lead teams to a ring

Hawkeye15
12-07-2009, 02:51 PM
^i hope you mean a top ten player all time.


because there are not 10 ACTIVE players right now who had lead teams to a ring

yes, that is what I meant. Kobe moved into my personal top 15 last year of all time. He will probably enter the top 10 by the time his career is over I am sure.

Chronz
12-07-2009, 02:57 PM
anyone who will be a lot better than Larry Bird would have won a title by his 6th season in the NBA, despite the roster.
Your getting cold, when did MJ win his first title?

Chronz
12-07-2009, 02:59 PM
Dumars, Isiah, Rodman and Laimbeer pretty much were equal with the slight edge to Dumars.
Just gos to show how meaningless it is then. Big O is a much better player than Joe Dumars despite how they won the titles in your mind.

kArSoN RyDaH
12-07-2009, 05:42 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

kobe
duncan
lebron
bird
garnett
west
robertson
howard
erving
paul

lovedef
12-09-2009, 09:39 AM
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Julius Erving

KnicksorBust
12-09-2009, 09:47 AM
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Julius Erving

Quality list. Welcome to PSD.

ddaughtry
12-09-2009, 05:46 PM
If these players were all in the upcoming draft, who in what order would you pick them? Based on What we Know NOW



Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Dwight Howard

Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul
Julius Erving
Lebron James