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View Full Version : Is Yao the most underrated defender in the league?



Chronz
11-29-2009, 01:11 AM
For the majority of the decade the Rockets have been associated with defense, the primary reason has in my opinion been Yao. In fact the Rockets went from being the worst defensive team in the league to a respectable one in just his rookie season. In his 2nd year, with the tutoring of defensive Guru JVG, both he and the team raised their defensive intensity to elite levels.
Over the course of 6 years the Rockets defense consistently ranked among the very best, and while they have built a reputation as a scrappy team (deservedly so) it hasnt translated into even adequate defense. They currently rank 18th defensively, and before anyone makes the early schedule excuse, just keep in mind, the Rockets rank nearly as bad (17th) by measures that account for strength of opponent/schedule.

They started the year off well enough, and I dont think its from a lack of effort, but the past few weeks has been the worst stretch of defense ever played by this club since the year before Yao, considering JVG got a bunch of bums to play pretty good defense sans Yao this is saying alot.

I really dont know how to explain it other than by assuming Battier has lost a step, and Yao is more important than anyone realized. Is Yao the most underrated defender or is there some underlying factor Im missing that has turned this perennial defensive juggernaut into Rocky Balboa (the guy took every punch ever thrown at him to the chin, no D).

Hellcrooner
11-29-2009, 01:14 AM
well as prctically every foreigner in teh league his d is underated.

dwadefan03
11-29-2009, 01:15 AM
nope. thabo sefolosha is the most underrated

Chronz
11-29-2009, 01:17 AM
well as prctically every foreigner in teh league his d is underated.

Are you saying foreigners shouldnt be labeled as soft defenders?

BluejaysFan08
11-29-2009, 01:23 AM
Are you saying foreigners shouldnt be labeled as soft defenders?

Yes. Its not hard to play defence when your 9'4

Kakaroach
11-29-2009, 01:27 AM
His length certainly alters a lot of shots and makes it tough if you play him one-on-one. He's not the most under-rated, Thabo is pretty under-rated.

Hellcrooner
11-29-2009, 01:30 AM
Are you saying foreigners shouldnt be labeled as soft defenders?
no im saying not all foreigners shoudl be labeled as soft.

example.

Soft defenders : Dirk, Calderon, Sergio Rodriguez, Pavlovic, Biedrins and some more


NOT SOFT: Gasol(neither of them), Rudy, Ginobili, Scola, Oberto, Nene.... and many more

BlondeBomber41
11-29-2009, 01:35 AM
Most of what he does was simply due to his size, not skill. So no, he isn't underrated. Everyone knows he is huge and is alters shots and keeps people from driving the lane. Shawn Bradley did the same thing.

_KB24_
11-29-2009, 01:37 AM
Most of what he does was simply due to his size, not skill. So no, he isn't underrated. Everyone knows he is huge and is alters shots and keeps people from driving the lane. Shawn Bradley did the same thing.

Good post. Agree 100%.

For such an "underrated" defender, he does get posterized @ a high rate.

BlondeBomber41
11-29-2009, 01:37 AM
no im saying not all foreigners shoudl be labeled as soft.

example.

Soft defenders : Dirk, Calderon, Sergio Rodriguez, Pavlovic, Biedrins and some more


NOT SOFT: Gasol(neither of them), Rudy, Ginobili, Scola, Oberto, Nene.... and many more

Neither Dirk or Andris Biedrins are soft. If you are gonna call Dirk soft and then imply that players like Pau Gasol, Luis Scola and Fabricio Oberto are not then you should stop posting.

Hellcrooner
11-29-2009, 01:42 AM
Neither Dirk or Andris Biedrins are soft. If you are gonna call Dirk soft and then imply that players like Pau Gasol, Luis Scola and Fabricio Oberto are not then you should stop posting.
im nto gona argue bout this with some with pic of Dirk and a dirk related name .

bu i wl tel you a few words and numbers

06 shaq :facepalm:

09 dwight :D

masalex1205
11-29-2009, 01:43 AM
Seriously? when I think of soft players, Dirk is the first person I think of...

_KB24_
11-29-2009, 01:44 AM
Dirk ain't soft. He's a decent defender. Nothing to shabby but definitely not a scrub.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-29-2009, 01:46 AM
Neither Dirk or Andris Biedrins are soft. If you are gonna call Dirk soft and then imply that players like Pau Gasol, Luis Scola and Fabricio Oberto are not then you should stop posting.


Pau Gasol aint soft, ask for Dwight Howard

FOBolous
11-29-2009, 01:48 AM
he's underrated in the sense that no1 ever gives him credit for contribution on the defensive end. Everyone knows he's Houston's anchor on the offensive end but people don't recognize the fact that he's Houston's anchor on the defensive end also. Every time someone goes into the paint when they play against Houston...Yao's on the back of their mind.

Raph12
11-29-2009, 01:51 AM
Vince Carter is a very underrated defender in the league.

BlondeBomber41
11-29-2009, 01:51 AM
Pau Gasol aint soft, ask for Dwight Howard

The point was there is no way that Dirk is "softer" than Gasol, so if you are naming soft players and say Gasol isnt than you can't call Dirk soft.

BlondeBomber41
11-29-2009, 01:53 AM
im nto gona argue bout this with some with pic of Dirk and a dirk related name .

bu i wl tel you a few words and numbers

06 shaq :facepalm:

09 dwight :D

Your words and numbers dont make any sense, and I dont care if you are gonna argue with me about it. Most people on this site know that 99% of the things you say are jibberish and you get made fun of for being clueless probably more than any other poster... so I couldnt care less what you think.


Seriously? when I think of soft players, Dirk is the first person I think of...

Thats because you have no clue what you are talking about... duh.

Kyben36
11-29-2009, 01:55 AM
Yes, probably, because when you look at him, he looks clumsy and enept, and also, he likes to be on posters as well.

Kyben36
11-29-2009, 01:58 AM
Pau Gasol aint soft, ask for Dwight Howard

I think they get the sense of Pau being soft when he used to play C, As a C, he was below average in terms of not being soft, but as a PF, I would say he is OK, not a big time tough guy by any means, but not as soft as he was considered at C.

Deezy Dee 24.
11-29-2009, 02:05 AM
Well i wouldnt say Most under rated.

ChiSox219
11-29-2009, 02:06 AM
No

Bogut
Mbah a Moute
Thabo
Lamar Odom

To name a few...

Chronz
11-29-2009, 02:38 AM
Most of what he does was simply due to his size, not skill. So no, he isn't underrated. Everyone knows he is huge and is alters shots and keeps people from driving the lane. Shawn Bradley did the same thing.
What difference does it make whether it comes from skill or size? Why did you mention Shawn Bradley, did he ever anchor a defense like Yao has?


Good post. Agree 100%.

For such an "underrated" defender, he does get posterized @ a high rate.
You ever hear of Alonzo Mourning?

BlondeBomber41
11-29-2009, 02:40 AM
What difference does it make whether it comes from skill or size? Why did you mention Shawn Bradley, did he ever anchor a defense like Yao has?

It matters because nobody doubts what Yao brings defensively due to his size. To say he is a great "defender" is insinuating he actually is a great one because of skill.

Shawn Bradley is one of the greatest shot blockers of all time, so yes. If he had played on more defensive minded teams he would of got more credit.

Chronz
11-29-2009, 02:44 AM
No

Bogut
Mbah a Moute
Thabo
Lamar Odom

To name a few...

Mbah has been in the league 1 year, its not uncommon for it to take time for youngsters to develop a defensive reputation among fans. He will get the pub in time, Yao on the other hand has been in the league 7 years and some still refer to him as a bad defender.

Odom yes, Thabo Im not so sure of. Bogut is definitely in that Yao category of obscure dominance, hes not on Yao's level but in terms of importance to his team hes up there. Much like Yao the hiring of a defensive genius really brought out the best in his abilities. Also, what kind of guy comes into the league and develops the ability to block shots? It just doesnt happen, your either born with a knack for it or your not, the fact that he became a shotblocking presence speaks volumes IMO, yet people still think of him as a bad defender.

AllTheWay
11-29-2009, 02:48 AM
It does help being 8 feet tall and all. His man defense is good as well, surprising agility for a guy so tall and lanky.

Chronz
11-29-2009, 02:55 AM
It matters because nobody doubts what Yao brings defensively due to his size. To say he is a great "defender" is insinuating he actually is a great one because of skill.
I dont know man, Ive seen people say hes a bad defender because of his size and the lack of speed associated with it.

Honestly though I dont care for skills, just impact. I could care less how you get it done, but if you can get my team to defend better just by being on the floor, you could be doing it by spreading toxic flatulence for all I care.

I doubt there has ever been a great defender who was so because of his skill, every great defender who ever lived had freakish athletic traits, be it size, wingspan, girth, quickness. Its why those same players, with the same skills, were unable to defend at an elite level once robbed of their physical gifts. So I really think you should drop the whole skills aspect unless you can tell me what difference does it make?


Shawn Bradley is one of the greatest shot blockers of all time, so yes. If he had played on more defensive minded teams he would of got more credit.
I didnt ask if he was a shotblocker, plenty of shotblockers have been mediocre or even bad defenders, or dont you remember Raef.

Personally I find if you have to make excuses for his teams lack of success, then hes never anchored a team defense like Yao. Put it this way, Yao transforms his team into a good defensive club whereas Bradley has to be surrounded by great defenders to be of use. That doesnt sound like an anchor to me. An anchor is a guy you can add to the team and expect a very strong defensive improvement.

Im actually a fan of Bradly but to compare him to Yao defensively is a joke. Bradley was a twig who was constantly abused 1 on 1, in the post and on the perimeter. Yao has tree trunk legs, is immovable on the blocks, and a better rebounder.

Chronz
11-29-2009, 02:58 AM
Vince Carter is a very underrated defender in the league.

Hes one of those guys who people have bashed for so long everyone else begins follow suit, before you know it, it becomes the accepted stance on a players ability. VC is underrated in the sense that hes not as bad as people think.

Raph12
11-29-2009, 03:03 AM
Hes one of those guys who people have bashed for so long everyone else begins follow suit, before you know it, it becomes the accepted stance on a players ability. VC is underrated in the sense that hes not as bad as people think.

I agree with everything you just said... man it's been a while since we disagreed, I look forward to another intelligent arguement with you when the time comes lol.

_KB24_
11-29-2009, 05:48 AM
You ever hear of Alonzo Mourning?

lol you got me there. But from the top of my head, the only times I remember him getting posterized was after he came back from his surgery and he was a much weaker defender than before.

BlondeBomber41
11-29-2009, 05:59 AM
I dont know man, Ive seen people say hes a bad defender because of his size and the lack of speed associated with it.

Honestly though I dont care for skills, just impact. I could care less how you get it done, but if you can get my team to defend better just by being on the floor, you could be doing it by spreading toxic flatulence for all I care.

I doubt there has ever been a great defender who was so because of his skill, every great defender who ever lived had freakish athletic traits, be it size, wingspan, girth, quickness. Its why those same players, with the same skills, were unable to defend at an elite level once robbed of their physical gifts. So I really think you should drop the whole skills aspect unless you can tell me what difference does it make?


I didnt ask if he was a shotblocker, plenty of shotblockers have been mediocre or even bad defenders, or dont you remember Raef.

Personally I find if you have to make excuses for his teams lack of success, then hes never anchored a team defense like Yao. Put it this way, Yao transforms his team into a good defensive club whereas Bradley has to be surrounded by great defenders to be of use. That doesnt sound like an anchor to me. An anchor is a guy you can add to the team and expect a very strong defensive improvement.

Im actually a fan of Bradly but to compare him to Yao defensively is a joke. Bradley was a twig who was constantly abused 1 on 1, in the post and on the perimeter. Yao has tree trunk legs, is immovable on the blocks, and a better rebounder.

Oh cmon now, Yao has always had at least 2 or 3 very good defenders on the floor with him. No matter who has played PF (Hayes, Scola, Landry) he always has a good defensive PF and Shane Battier is on the perimeter. Hell, last year he had Ron Artest AND Shane Battier. Bradley was the only defensive bright spot on a team that featured a young Dirk, Steve Nash, Michael Finley a couple years out of his prime, Nick Van Exel and a run and gun team. Well him and Eddy Najera. Yao wouldn't of anchored it much better than Bradley did.

Yao only has 35 pounds on Bradley, which is a significant amount for a normal size man but spread over a 7'6 frame its really not.

Chronz
11-29-2009, 01:16 PM
lol you got me there. But from the top of my head, the only times I remember him getting posterized was after he came back from his surgery and he was a much weaker defender than before.
True, on the same level its been awhile since anyone dunked on Yao. He used to get posters galore, the last poster I remember was Outlaws.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2009, 01:28 PM
While I dont think Yao is a very good defender, he presents so much size, teams may sway from penetrating as much as they do now. The Rockets also run now, so their opponents scoring will be up with more posessions, and really, with no Yao or TMac, and Battier losing a step, and the Rockets frontcourt ridiculously small, they are not the defensive team they were a year a go, or over the past 4 years. I dont think it can be attributed heavily on Yao being gone. He doesnt block a lot of shots, and is a poor rebounder. But he does keep teams from coming into the lane. That is where his value is

Hawkeye15
11-29-2009, 01:29 PM
as far as the running goes, what I mean is, when you run, you are going to go down in defensive efficiency, there will be that many more posessions that are in transition, and not allowing the defense to set, which the Rockets have played like for the last number of years. Slow it down, and set the defense. They dont play that way necessarily now.

Chronz
11-29-2009, 01:33 PM
Oh cmon now, Yao has always had at least 2 or 3 very good defenders on the floor with him. No matter who has played PF (Hayes, Scola, Landry) he always has a good defensive PF and Shane Battier is on the perimeter. Hell, last year he had Ron Artest AND Shane Battier. Bradley was the only defensive bright spot on a team that featured a young Dirk, Steve Nash, Michael Finley a couple years out of his prime, Nick Van Exel and a run and gun team. Well him and Eddy Najera. Yao wouldn't of anchored it much better than Bradley did.

Yao only has 35 pounds on Bradley, which is a significant amount for a normal size man but spread over a 7'6 frame its really not.
Except for the fact that none of those guys were around when the team defense got to where it was. Yao got his team to play D, with 2 of the worst frontcourt defenders of our era (Juwan-Maurice) playing heavy minutes. Their official "stopper" was David Wesley, he routinely checked the Brons and Kobe's of the league, all 6"2 of him. Tmac put forth one of his better defensive seasons that year as well but overall the defensive talent wasnt very strong.

Once you removed Yao from the equation the results were much worse, despite the fact that those quality defenders are still on the team. I get your point, that the good defenders around Yao make him better and Im not saying Yao instantly makes any team a great defensive one, but there is no excuse for such a poor showing. Yao did what a true anchor does with defensive talent, finish with a top placing, a true anchor would NEVER stoop so low.

In closing, the difference is that the defense improved once Yao joined the team. Those same players without Yao are putting up ugly defensive marks.

PS
Landry is a pitiful defender, Scola is seems to be a poor defender without Yao on the court. Hayes is an All-League caliber stopper but hes not an anchor. Hes a complimentary defender, though he Battier and Ariza should be doing alot better.

And I dont what makes you think the weight difference doesnt matter. Like I said Bradly was a twig who was abused 1 on 1, Yao has treetrunks for legs, and will not budge from his position. Where he lacks strength is his upper body, most NBA players can rip the ball from his hands.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2009, 01:34 PM
another thing I forgot to add. Yao looked better due to having good perimeter defenders. And the same can be said the other way around. Battier, Artest, McGrady, any one of them, knew the big man was behind them, so they could pressure. Yao's presence was his defensive ability. Man to man, he was average on defense. And now with nobody taller than 6'8" down low, Battier, Ariza, and co. must sag off, or risk their bigs getting scored on and in foul trouble. So as a team defender, yes, Yao is very important. But no more so than if Yao were fine, and Battier went down.

rapjuicer06
11-29-2009, 01:46 PM
Except for the fact that none of those guys were around when the team defense got to where it was. Yao got his team to play D, with 2 of the worst frontcourt defenders of our era (Juwan-Maurice) playing heavy minutes. Their official "stopper" was David Wesley, he routinely checked the Brons and Kobe's of the league, all 6"2 of him. Tmac put forth one of his better defensive seasons that year as well but overall the defensive talent wasnt very strong.

Once you removed Yao from the equation the results were much worse, despite the fact that those quality defenders are still on the team. I get your point, that the good defenders around Yao make him better and Im not saying Yao instantly makes any team a great defensive one, but there is no excuse for such a poor showing. Yao did what a true anchor does with defensive talent, finish with a top placing, a true anchor would NEVER stoop so low.

In closing, the difference is that the defense improved once Yao joined the team. Those same players without Yao are putting up ugly defensive marks.

PS
Landry is a pitiful defender, Scola is seems to be a poor defender without Yao on the court. Hayes is an All-League caliber stopper but hes not an anchor. Hes a complimentary defender, though he Battier and Ariza should be doing alot better.

And I dont what makes you think the weight difference doesnt matter. Like I said Bradly was a twig who was abused 1 on 1, Yao has treetrunks for legs, and will not budge from his position. Where he lacks strength is his upper body, most NBA players can rip the ball from his hands.

so basically you making this thread wasn't really a question. its a statement by you. he isn't underrated. i've never heard anyone really say hes not a good defender. so maybe your just pulling something out your ***? i'm kind of lost. he's average. not below average, not above average. so no he's not under rated.

and to who ever said to ask howard if gasol is soft. well the answer is with out a doubt yes. a guy who can't guard howard has to fall back on flopping that a horses dick after having sex. pau is as soft as it comes

ChiSox219
11-29-2009, 01:51 PM
so basically you making this thread wasn't really a question. its a statement by you. he isn't underrated. i've never heard anyone really say hes not a good defender. so maybe your just pulling something out your ***? i'm kind of lost. he's average. not below average, not above average. so no he's not under rated.

and to who ever said to ask howard if gasol is soft. well the answer is with out a doubt yes. a guy who can't guard howard has to fall back on flopping that a horses dick after having sex. pau is as soft as it comes

You saying that, proves Yao is underrated.

wileyisTOFU
11-29-2009, 01:55 PM
hes's underrated because he dosent make dwight howard-esque blocks(or any plays that really wow you or make SC highlights) and he's have some crazy dunks on him. But yeah, hes a 7' 6" Chinese guy in the paint, certainly couldn't hurt defensively.

rapjuicer06
11-29-2009, 01:56 PM
You saying that, proves Yao is underrated.

this is all based on opinions, there is no answer.....

kjoke
11-29-2009, 01:57 PM
i think he is

theuuord
11-29-2009, 02:00 PM
and to who ever said to ask howard if gasol is soft. well the answer is with out a doubt yes. a guy who can't guard howard has to fall back on flopping that a horses dick after having sex. pau is as soft as it comes

No analysis that includes the phrase "horses dick" is ever a good one.

Pau shut Howard down in the finals. No getting around that one.

rapjuicer06
11-29-2009, 02:11 PM
No analysis that includes the phrase "horses dick" is ever a good one.

Pau shut Howard down in the finals. No getting around that one.

a combo of pau and bynum yes, and a little bit of help from the refs calling paus flops as charges on dwight, then yes your right. pau shut down howard. but pau is still soft

theuuord
11-29-2009, 02:17 PM
a combo of pau and bynum yes, and a little bit of help from the refs calling paus flops as charges on dwight, then yes your right. pau shut down howard. but pau is still soft

Nope. Howard played significantly worse when Pau played him one-on-one defensively, and because of that the defense shifted towards him playing up Howard more and more as the series went on.
If you want facts, I can show you.

rapjuicer06
11-29-2009, 02:21 PM
i can show you where pau's a ***** as well...soooo yea pau is SOFT

ChiSox219
11-29-2009, 02:23 PM
this is all based on opinions, there is no answer.....

Of course it's based on opinion, being underrated is performing better than one is given credit for.

Based on your, and a lot of people's opinions, the answer is Yao is underrated.

FOBolous
11-29-2009, 02:25 PM
\He doesnt block a lot of shots

her averages 2 blocks per game for his career


and is a poor rebounder.

he averaged 8 rebounds as a rookie and he averaged pretty much 10 rebounds per game the last 4 years he's in the league. you can say he gets that much rebound because he's tall or whatever but the fact of the matter is...he gets it. what's the difference between yao's 10 rebounds to Bosh's 10 rebounds, Duncan's 10 rebounds?, Boozer's 10 rebounds, or Okafor's 10 rebounds? how can a person who averages 10 rebounds a game be a poor rebounder?


But he does keep teams from coming into the lane. That is where his value is

He also locks down the other team's centers. There's a reason why Dwight Howard and Shaq have bad games against him. In fact...D12 have some of the worst game of his careers against Yao.

Cubsfan365
11-29-2009, 02:29 PM
He is probably not that highly regarded because people pretty much expect you to play solid defense when you are positively enormous.

FOBolous
11-29-2009, 03:04 PM
this is all based on opinions, there is no answer.....

no it's not. Yao's ability to deter opposing players from the paint, his ability to shut down down opposing centers, his 2 blocks a game, and his 10 rebounds a game cannot be debated. it is a FACT. you know giving him the credit he deserves shows just how underrated he is to a lot of people

Kakaroach
11-29-2009, 03:21 PM
No image posting people. This thread is getting out of hand.

rapjuicer06
11-29-2009, 03:36 PM
no it's not. Yao's ability to deter opposing players from the paint, his ability to shut down down opposing centers, his 2 blocks a game, and his 10 rebounds a game cannot be debated. it is a FACT. you know giving him the credit he deserves shows just how underrated he is to a lot of people

so he "deters" people from the lane, but yet, they still go in there and score? ha thats very very laughable. all around defender, no yao is not under rated. any way you want to look at it, he's not on the court so as a whole, yao is over rated.

FOBolous
11-29-2009, 04:30 PM
so he "deters" people from the lane, but yet, they still go in there and score? ha thats very very laughable. all around defender, no yao is not under rated. any way you want to look at it, he's not on the court so as a whole, yao is over rated.

this is the worse argument so far..people are going to score in the lane no matter what..people score in the lane against Dwight Howard and Shaq. but the fact of the matter is...people think twice about going into the lane when Yao's in there. points in the paint against Houston is one of the lowest in the league when Yao was playing.

Raph12
11-29-2009, 04:34 PM
Where's "Steve Nash" at?... he said Yao Ming was a better defensive player than Dwight Howard.

Team*Chicago
11-29-2009, 04:46 PM
Hell no, Yao Ming is not the most underrated defender in the league, after he got dunked on by little bitty Nate Robinson. Yao is the most overrated defender in the league.

wileyisTOFU
11-29-2009, 04:49 PM
Hell no, Yao Ming is not the most underrated defender in the league, after he got dunked on by little bitty Nate Robinson. Yao is the most overrated defender in the league.

In his defense I believe that was a offensive foul. but yes Nate kinda destroyed him there.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2009, 05:18 PM
no it's not. Yao's ability to deter opposing players from the paint, his ability to shut down down opposing centers, his 2 blocks a game, and his 10 rebounds a game cannot be debated. it is a FACT. you know giving him the credit he deserves shows just how underrated he is to a lot of people

Yes, it has something to do with his defense, deterring players from coming into the lane. THAT is his defensive value. He averaged 2 blk at best. He is 7'5", and lives in the lane. He averaged 10 rebounds a game here and there, for his size, and his inability to ever leave the lane, that isn't that great, if we are talking about elite defenders.
He is not underrated. He is a very good offensive player, and an average on the ball defender. He is a good team defender, due to the dynamics of the roster. Like I stated, it was a balance in Houston. Yao was lucky to have Battier, McGrady, and many before them, outside, and they were lucky to have a statue behind them, that forced small guards from penetrating.
Dont look at bottom line stats individually on him. They dont show a whole lot. His rebound rate is average, and he doesnt block shots. So individually, if you are going to argue his stats, you are going to lose the argument. The initial post, was his team defensive effectiveness, which can be debated. His individual defense, can not. So what, he held Howard, who has zero post moves, down, or a 200 year old Shaq. Howard plays in the age of no center, and takes advantage of having no competition. If this were 1995, Dwight Howard would be a 3rd tier center. And so would Yao

Raph12
11-29-2009, 05:32 PM
Hell no, Yao Ming is not the most underrated defender in the league, after he got dunked on by little bitty Nate Robinson. Yao is the most overrated defender in the league.

In his defense I believe that was a offensive foul. but yes Nate kinda destroyed him there.

I think you two are confused, Nate didn't dunk on Yao, he blocked him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2q7SfG07y8

FOBolous
11-29-2009, 06:48 PM
Yes, it has something to do with his defense, deterring players from coming into the lane. THAT is his defensive value. He averaged 2 blk at best. He is 7'5", and lives in the lane. He averaged 10 rebounds a game here and there, for his size, and his inability to ever leave the lane, that isn't that great, if we are talking about elite defenders.
He is not underrated. He is a very good offensive player, and an average on the ball defender. He is a good team defender, due to the dynamics of the roster. Like I stated, it was a balance in Houston. Yao was lucky to have Battier, McGrady, and many before them, outside, and they were lucky to have a statue behind them, that forced small guards from penetrating.
Dont look at bottom line stats individually on him. They dont show a whole lot. His rebound rate is average, and he doesnt block shots. So individually, if you are going to argue his stats, you are going to lose the argument. The initial post, was his team defensive effectiveness, which can be debated. His individual defense, can not. So what, he held Howard, who has zero post moves, down, or a 200 year old Shaq. Howard plays in the age of no center, and takes advantage of having no competition. If this were 1995, Dwight Howard would be a 3rd tier center. And so would Yao

i'm not understanding how you can say Yao is an average rebounder and say he averages 10 rebound a game in the same post. after that...you say he doesn't block shots but you said he averaged 2 blocks per game a few sentences before. in case you don't know...2 blocks a game is a lot. than you say he is an average on the ball defender yet you admit he has the ability to shut down the player that many regards as the best center in the league today. there's a lot of contradictions in your post.

Lakersfan2483
11-29-2009, 07:48 PM
Yao is definitely in the discussion for most underrated defenders, just look at Houston's defense this year in comparison to having him in the lineup. His presence in the paint cannot be simulated by other players on the team and is a major factor when facing Houston. Houston is regarded as one of the top defensive teams when Yao is healthy and that is by no means a coincidence. The only thing Yao lacks is good lateral movement and agility which causes his on the ball defense to suffer, but despite that deficiency, the Rockets, when healthy, are one of the elite defensive teams.

Don P.Belasario
11-29-2009, 08:32 PM
Tallest dude in the NBA, 7"6. Cant avg 10 rebounds a game for his career. No, no he is not. I dont even consider him an avg defender.

And comparing Houstan this year to last year and attributing the defensive decline to a lack of Yao overlooks one significant factor... Ron Artest

Being an LA fan I would have thought you might pick up on that.... lol

Sandman
11-29-2009, 08:41 PM
hell he hasn't had a point scored on him all season, DPOY!!!!

FOBolous
11-29-2009, 09:18 PM
Tallest dude in the NBA, 7"6. Cant avg 10 rebounds a game for his career. No, no he is not. I dont even consider him an avg defender.

And comparing Houstan this year to last year and attributing the defensive decline to a lack of Yao overlooks one significant factor... Ron Artest

Being an LA fan I would have thought you might pick up on that.... lol

yea one problem with your assertion...Houston's defense was one of the best in the league even before Ron Artest came to Houston. Hell Houston's defense went from one of the worse in the league to being one of the best the year Yao join the team and that year, Houston didn't have Battier, Hayes, Tmac, Artest, or Ariza....our best wing defender for a while was 6'2" David Wesley.

so you don't even consider him an average defender? why do you have to say about Yao's ability to deter opposing players from the paint, his ability to shut down down opposing centers, his 2 blocks a game, and his 10 rebounds a game?

Chronz
11-29-2009, 11:56 PM
so basically you making this thread wasn't really a question. its a statement by you. he isn't underrated. i've never heard anyone really say hes not a good defender. so maybe your just pulling something out your ***? i'm kind of lost. he's average. not below average, not above average. so no he's not under rated.

and to who ever said to ask howard if gasol is soft. well the answer is with out a doubt yes. a guy who can't guard howard has to fall back on flopping that a horses dick after having sex. pau is as soft as it comes

The thread topic is open to interpretations, Im responding to certain flawed misconceptions. His post is pretty much confirming my beliefs, so yes I do have a bias in raising this question.... sue me

Regards to your analysis, how do you explain the drop off? Why are those elite defenders suddenly not so elite without Yao around?

Chronz
11-30-2009, 12:07 AM
Yao's defensive rebound rate for his career is 23.3%, for comparison sakes both Shaq and Dream are within 23.8, and Im pretty sure his teams were never weak rebounding teams. Also his counterpart rebounding #'s are excellent, centers typically rebound less effectively when matched up against Yao. I think its fair to say hes more than adequate if not great, but I agree hes not elite. He has trouble tracking long rebounds and reacts slower in clutch situations.

Chronz
11-30-2009, 12:12 AM
yea one problem with your assertion...Houston's defense was one of the best in the league even before Ron Artest came to Houston. Hell Houston's defense went from one of the worse in the league to being one of the best the year Yao join the team and that year, Houston didn't have Battier, Hayes, Tmac, Artest, or Ariza....our best wing defender for a while was 6'2" David Wesley.

so you don't even consider him an average defender? why do you have to say about Yao's ability to deter opposing players from the paint, his ability to shut down down opposing centers, his 2 blocks a game, and his 10 rebounds a game?
Add to that, Tmac was a cancer defensively for much of his playing days in Houston. Wesley played with heart though didnt he.

Still are the Rockets really going to remain this bad. If they can regain atleast some of their previous form then the topic loses some of its luster, but Id rather that be the case than have to think of Scolandry, and Battriza in a negative light because this is so beneath them.

Shady66
11-30-2009, 12:17 AM
Hes very underrated, most people know him as a weak defender. Even if he is, he makes a lot of shots harder than they should be because of his great length

Sandman
11-30-2009, 01:13 AM
What exactly is "rebound rate"?

If its the same as Shaq/Dream, does that mean that he doesn't go for the rebounds, but gets 23% of the ones he reaches for?

Because sometimes watching the guy, it seems like he boxes out his man to watch somebody else (his team or not) grab the board when he needs to be the aggressor, the biggest man on the floor.

SteveNash
11-30-2009, 01:22 AM
Of course he's underrated. Hardly anyone cares about good defense, all people care about as stats. That's why bad defenders like Camby and Howard make a mockery of the DPOY award.

Chronz
11-30-2009, 01:28 AM
What exactly is "rebound rate"?

If its the same as Shaq/Dream, does that mean that he doesn't go for the rebounds, but gets 23% of the ones he reaches for?

Because sometimes watching the guy, it seems like he boxes out his man to watch somebody else (his team or not) grab the board when he needs to be the aggressor, the biggest man on the floor.

Rebound rate is the % of available rebounds corralled, that way you dont have to worry about pace of the game skewing the #'s. And he does his job boxing out his man, its up to his teammates to follow suit. There is no right or wrong way to approach rebounding but yes, if Yao could cover ground he would be an elite rebounder in the mold of D-Rob, young KG/Kareem or Ewing.

ChiSox219
11-30-2009, 01:28 AM
Of course he's underrated. Hardly anyone cares about good defense, all people care about as stats. That's why bad defenders like Camby and Howard make a mockery of the DPOY award.

Camby is a great defender and I wouldn't call Howard "bad"

rapjuicer06
11-30-2009, 10:00 AM
10 rebounds a game for a 7'5 guy is not very good. thats not good for a lot of centers in the league. 7 defensive rebounds a game is bad. for a guy who can stand there and grab everything, he doesn't. he's an offensive player. offensive players tend to play a little weaker on defense so they don't waste their energy for offense. yao ming is a damn good offensive player, defense he's average.

Chronz
11-30-2009, 01:42 PM
10 rebounds a game for a 7'5 guy is not very good. thats not good for a lot of centers in the league. 7 defensive rebounds a game is bad. for a guy who can stand there and grab everything, he doesn't. he's an offensive player. offensive players tend to play a little weaker on defense so they don't waste their energy for offense. yao ming is a damn good offensive player, defense he's average.
Why do people keep referring to Yao's height in relation to his rebounds? How is him being so high up and not able to cover alot of ground suppose to help his rebounding? I dont know if you guys have noticed but the best rebounders have typically been undersized, explosive/strong athletes. The best rebounder of all time stood at 6"7 or so.

There have been 11 players taller than 7"3 (Not counting Kareem). Among those players Yao has the 2nd highest defensive rebound rate, behind only the immortal Arvydas Sabonis. Along with the highest per game rebounding average. So going by the games history, how is this helping your case?

Nor do I see the logic in trashing his D because hes so good at O, there have been great 2 way players you know.

ChiSox219
11-30-2009, 01:45 PM
10 rebounds a game for a 7'5 guy is not very good. thats not good for a lot of centers in the league. 7 defensive rebounds a game is bad. for a guy who can stand there and grab everything, he doesn't. he's an offensive player. offensive players tend to play a little weaker on defense so they don't waste their energy for offense. yao ming is a damn good offensive player, defense he's average.

You don't know what you are talking about, give it a rest.

Chronz already pointed out that Yao's rebound rate is exceptional.

The league average for Centers this season is listed as 8.7 rebounds per game, so Yao's totals are well above the league average. (The other thing to consider is Luis Scola rebounds at an exceptional rate as well.)

Over the last three season Yao has been the 10th most effective defender in the entire league by RAPM http://hoopnumbers.com/allAnalysisView?analysis=defRAPM&discussion=False&leaders=True&year=2009optimizedNow_multiYear

Double_R
11-30-2009, 02:11 PM
Of course he's underrated. Hardly anyone cares about good defense, all people care about as stats. That's why bad defenders like Camby and Howard make a mockery of the DPOY award.


Dwight Howard changes opposing teams entire offensive game plans; teams stop driving as much, they shoot more jump shots, that is why the Magic were one of the top defenses last year. Watch a Magic game before you embarrass yourself any more.


Oh yea and how bout those Hawks you were raving about so much.

Verbal Christ
11-30-2009, 02:29 PM
Add to the argument the poor officiating with regards to yao. Defensively yao is on record stating he can't be as aggressive as hed like to be 'I can't use my full power' was what he said, it has gotten better but there was a time when yao couldn't even breathe on his defender without getting whistled. Its a miracle he gets the numbers he does considering and anyone who can't see the defensive value is just straight up hating.

albertc86
11-30-2009, 02:38 PM
I wouldn't call underrated at anything. The dude is freakishly tall. He doesn't even have to jump to block a shot, so no, I don't think he's underrated or overrrated.

skinsfan4life80
11-30-2009, 02:50 PM
Why are there so many threads about a guy who is out for the year when there are so many players playing right now. Yao may never even play again and if he does may never be the same. Cant we just wait to see him play and judge him then

Chronz
11-30-2009, 03:09 PM
Why are there so many threads about a guy who is out for the year when there are so many players playing right now. Yao may never even play again and if he does may never be the same. Cant we just wait to see him play and judge him then

Whats this about never being the same, is he losing half an inch to his frame? He was already slow what more is left to be taken away from him that doesnt have to do with skill and size?

ayuntalo
11-30-2009, 03:14 PM
He is over rated....
What's the sense of having 7'6 frame when all you can block are layups..
Did you see him block an aggressive slasher?? Even Emeka Okafor does that..
but why couldn't yao?? He is taller..he is a STAR...Many believes he is the best center in the west..
How can you be a great defender if you cant defend pick and rolls/pop..

Chronz
11-30-2009, 03:44 PM
He is over rated....
What's the sense of having 7'6 frame when all you can block are layups..
Did you see him block an aggressive slasher?? Even Emeka Okafor does that..
but why couldn't yao?? He is taller..he is a STAR...Many believes he is the best center in the west..
How can you be a great defender if you cant defend pick and rolls/pop..
Perhaps because he turns aggressive slashers into timid jumpshooters?

rapjuicer06
11-30-2009, 03:49 PM
Add to the argument the poor officiating with regards to yao. Defensively yao is on record stating he can't be as aggressive as hed like to be 'I can't use my full power' was what he said, it has gotten better but there was a time when yao couldn't even breathe on his defender without getting whistled. Its a miracle he gets the numbers he does considering and anyone who can't see the defensive value is just straight up hating.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha bout the dumbest thing i've seen. yao can't be aggressive? well duh, hes not an aggressive player. dwight howard this year puts what you said into play. if howards sweat touches another player, he is called for a foul.

and to shut all of you up, yao is the most over payed player next to tracy mcgrady...rockets two highest payed players aren't even playing :facepalm: so until yao gets back on the court and can play, YUP HES OVERRATED!

Verbal Christ
11-30-2009, 04:39 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha bout the dumbest thing i've seen. yao can't be aggressive? well duh, hes not an aggressive player. dwight howard this year puts what you said into play. if howards sweat touches another player, he is called for a foul.

and to shut all of you up, yao is the most over payed player next to tracy mcgrady...rockets two highest payed players aren't even playing :facepalm: so until yao gets back on the court and can play, YUP HES OVERRATED!

Is english your first language or is your incoherent babbling tied into your piss poor bball iq? You've been supplied with enough data to make an objective LEARNED decision and the best you can do is bust out the "hurt/overpaid" card? You really that dumb? Do you know how much revenue yao amasses the rockets AND the whole league for that matter? I'm sure players love getting hurt since your so fond of bringing that up and do some research before you keep embarrassing yourself. Anyone who knows understands the challenge MEGA huge players are faced with when opponents can maul them on one end then the same type defense becomes illegal on the other side due to sheer size, your dwight analogy is worse than robert downey lecturing about drugs, dwight doesn't rely on size and physicality to be a good defender, he is the "new breed" center with crazy athleticism while yao is a traditional post in every sense of the word. You aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer are you?

rapjuicer06
11-30-2009, 05:13 PM
Is english your first language or is your incoherent babbling tied into your piss poor bball iq? You've been supplied with enough data to make an objective LEARNED decision and the best you can do is bust out the "hurt/overpaid" card? You really that dumb? Do you know how much revenue yao amasses the rockets AND the whole league for that matter? I'm sure players love getting hurt since your so fond of bringing that up and do some research before you keep embarrassing yourself. Anyone who knows understands the challenge MEGA huge players are faced with when opponents can maul them on one end then the same type defense becomes illegal on the other side due to sheer size, your dwight analogy is worse than robert downey lecturing about drugs, dwight doesn't rely on size and physicality to be a good defender, he is the "new breed" center with crazy athleticism while yao is a traditional post in every sense of the word. You aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer are you?

Dull knives do more damage my friend, those are the ones you gotta look out for

oooh and btw

YAO IS OVERRATED :D

and its quite annoying to always have a homer tell someone else they know nothing about the sport. yao is not a traditional post guy. nothing about him is traditional at all. he's a 7'5 guy who can shoot. thats traditional? hahaha and i kno nothing? come on now sally....

rapjuicer06
11-30-2009, 05:18 PM
oh and to the answer of the question of the thread, yes yao ming is vastly underrated....not one guy has stole any water/gatorade all year. he's doing a damn good job on that bench

wileyisTOFU
11-30-2009, 05:44 PM
douche-baggery

Hawkeye15
11-30-2009, 06:00 PM
i'm not understanding how you can say Yao is an average rebounder and say he averages 10 rebound a game in the same post. after that...you say he doesn't block shots but you said he averaged 2 blocks per game a few sentences before. in case you don't know...2 blocks a game is a lot. than you say he is an average on the ball defender yet you admit he has the ability to shut down the player that many regards as the best center in the league today. there's a lot of contradictions in your post.

Yao is a good defensive rebounder at times. His rate is somewhere around 23%, which is fine. Blocking 2 shots a game for a player who is 7'5", and never leaves the paint, is not that good. And as far as what is considered the top center today, I guess my point is, the Center is dead. The centers today suck compared to 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. So Yao doing this in the current age isnt that impressive.
When I think of shotblockers, Yao doesnt come to mind. He hovers down on the 2nd tier for centers, as he does in rebounds. His teams pace allows the ppg to be low, and he gets abused by skilled big men. Howard is not skilled. Go check his games against Al Jefferson for instance. His value is, he is 7'5", and deters from pesky little guards from coming into the paint. Dwight Howard is a great player, but he would have gotten his lunch eaten in 1995

Verbal Christ
11-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Dull knives do more damage my friend, those are the ones you gotta look out for

oooh and btw

YAO IS OVERRATED :D

and its quite annoying to always have a homer tell someone else they know nothing about the sport. yao is not a traditional post guy. nothing about him is traditional at all. he's a 7'5 guy who can shoot. thats traditional? hahaha and i kno nothing? come on now sally....

i mean seriously dude, you dont even stay on topic, you blurt out your personal spite by bringing the dollars and injury situation to the table, and yet you'd rather turn this into a dick measuring contest than to rebutt with something logical. not a traditional post? do you even watch basketball? i mean i'd figure after 3000 posts you'd have some kind of sense, but i guess you'd rather spend it talking about video games and avatars. i'll take an over-rated 20/10/2 every day of the week. hey dont forget to swallow what espn gives you, i promise its all protein.

astrosmaniac
11-30-2009, 07:06 PM
Oh cmon now, Yao has always had at least 2 or 3 very good defenders on the floor with him. No matter who has played PF (Hayes, Scola, Landry) he always has a good defensive PF and Shane Battier is on the perimeter. Hell, last year he had Ron Artest AND Shane Battier. Bradley was the only defensive bright spot on a team that featured a young Dirk, Steve Nash, Michael Finley a couple years out of his prime, Nick Van Exel and a run and gun team. Well him and Eddy Najera. Yao wouldn't of anchored it much better than Bradley did.

Yao only has 35 pounds on Bradley, which is a significant amount for a normal size man but spread over a 7'6 frame its really not.
yao has only had those guys for 2 years of play time. what about when he had juwan howard and stromile swift (the old version) and no shane battier? they were still a great defensive team

astrosmaniac
11-30-2009, 07:22 PM
10 rebounds a game for a 7'5 guy is not very good. thats not good for a lot of centers in the league. 7 defensive rebounds a game is bad. for a guy who can stand there and grab everything, he doesn't. he's an offensive player. offensive players tend to play a little weaker on defense so they don't waste their energy for offense. yao ming is a damn good offensive player, defense he's average.

if 10 RPG is so bad, then how come this year only 10 guys average that? last year only 6 guys averaged that for a season. 10 RPG is damn good

astrosmaniac
11-30-2009, 07:27 PM
Yao is a good defensive rebounder at times. His rate is somewhere around 23%, which is fine. Blocking 2 shots a game for a player who is 7'5", and never leaves the paint, is not that good. And as far as what is considered the top center today, I guess my point is, the Center is dead. The centers today suck compared to 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. So Yao doing this in the current age isnt that impressive.
When I think of shotblockers, Yao doesnt come to mind. He hovers down on the 2nd tier for centers, as he does in rebounds. His teams pace allows the ppg to be low, and he gets abused by skilled big men. Howard is not skilled. Go check his games against Al Jefferson for instance. His value is, he is 7'5", and deters from pesky little guards from coming into the paint. Dwight Howard is a great player, but he would have gotten his lunch eaten in 1995
considering this year and last year only 5 guys have averaged 2 BPG, id say thats pretty damn good

FOBolous
11-30-2009, 08:29 PM
it seems like a lot of you who think Yao is a bad defender seem to judger him on how you think he should be...not how he really is. Who Yao really is is a 20/10/2 guy who deter opposing players from the paint and shut down opposing centers. simple as that.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2009, 08:31 PM
it seems like a lot of you who think Yao is a bad defender seem to judger him on how you think he should be...not how he really is. Who Yao really is is a 20/10/2 guy who deter opposing players from the paint and shut down opposing centers. simple as that.

no the thread is "most underrated defender"
That title belongs to his teammate, who continually is left off the 1st team all defense, even though he is the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

FOBolous
11-30-2009, 08:35 PM
no the thread is "most underrated defender"
That title belongs to his teammate, who continually is left off the 1st team all defense, even though he is the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

you mean the teammate he only had for 4 years of career despite the fact that Houston's been one of the league's best defensive team for his whole entire career career?

Hawkeye15
11-30-2009, 08:47 PM
you mean the teammate he only had for 4 years of career despite the fact that Houston's been one of the league's best defensive team for his whole entire career career?

yep, thats the one I meant. And how are you figuring the team defense?? Just curious. They had Van Gundy, who carries with him great team defense, and one of the lowest posession rates in history with his slow down ball, so of course they would be top 10 in ppg allowed. They then traded Gay for Battier, and had McGrady, Artest, and now Ariza. Dont forget, Yao had a still serviceable Deke behind him, so the team defensive rating felt that.
And the point is, Yao isn't even the most underrated defender on his own team. Battier is. And Hayes is an outstanding defender as well.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2009, 08:48 PM
I am not saying Yao is a bad defender bro. I am saying, by no means is he the most underrated defender in the NBA, as the thread is stating/debating.

SteveNash
11-30-2009, 10:52 PM
Dwight Howard changes opposing teams entire offensive game plans; teams stop driving as much, they shoot more jump shots, that is why the Magic were one of the top defenses last year. Watch a Magic game before you embarrass yourself any more.


Oh yea and how bout those Hawks you were raving about so much.

No, Dwight gets abused by any competent offensive team. He's a dumb player on the level of Dalembert and will never be elite like Yao.

Now how exactly was I raving about the Hawks? All I remember saying is that them being ranked #1 in the power rankings was well deserved when they had the best record in the NBA.


no the thread is "most underrated defender"
That title belongs to his teammate, who continually is left off the 1st team all defense, even though he is the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

Battier has been so underrated by some that he's become overrated.

Kakaroach
11-30-2009, 11:10 PM
Battier has been so underrated by some that he's become overrated. Wow no offense but that did not make any sense at all. I think your saying Battier is great, which he is.

SteveNash
11-30-2009, 11:19 PM
Wow no offense but that did not make any sense at all. I think your saying Battier is great, which he is.

Battier is great but has become overrated due to age and because of people talking about how underrated he was.

Kakaroach
11-30-2009, 11:24 PM
Battier is great but has become overrated due to age and because of people talking about how underrated he was. How is being the best perimeter defender in the NBA over-rated? Especially when he never gets on the NBA first defensive team.

ChiSox219
11-30-2009, 11:25 PM
Battier is great but has become overrated due to age and because of people talking about how underrated he was.

I see your point, and it is valid, but I think a lot of what Battier does, still isn't really recognized by fans. For instance, no one ever recognizes how great an offensive player Battier really is.

SteveNash
11-30-2009, 11:54 PM
How is being the best perimeter defender in the NBA over-rated? Especially when he never gets on the NBA first defensive team.

When you're not the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

As for NBA defensive first teams, the people voting are idiots. As they've proven time and time again.


I see your point, and it is valid, but I think a lot of what Battier does, still isn't really recognized by fans. For instance, no one ever recognizes how great an offensive player Battier really is.

He's a limited offensive player who is a great role player that doesn't do anything all that well on the offensive end.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 12:13 AM
When you're not the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

As for NBA defensive first teams, the people voting are idiots. As they've proven time and time again.



He's a limited offensive player who is a great role player that doesn't do anything all that well on the offensive end.

He's the perfect teammate on offense. He never tries to do something he's not capable of. Most of his shots (66% last year) are three pointers, so while his FG% looks rough, his eFG% ranks 58th all-time. He's great at swinging the ball and is never hesitant to pass off to the better look. He takes care of the ball, granted it's not in his hands often or for a long period of time, but he doesn't turn the ball over. By RAPM, Battier was the #69th most efficient player on offense over the last 3 years, just ahead of Paul Pierce and Jose Calderon, respectively.

Denver-boy
12-01-2009, 12:15 AM
okay your calling Yao ming!! underrated lol haha thanks for the laugh. to actually be considered a underrated player mean you recieve no attention!! and no credit! Yao's made the ALL STAR GAMES, and TEAM USA!! and one of the among most popular Center in the game! so for you to even bring up this stupid question was pretty much a waste of everyones TIME!! Thanks lol (im being sarcastic)

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 12:19 AM
okay your calling Yao ming!! underrated lol haha thanks for the laugh. to actually be considered a underrated player mean you recieve no attention!! and no credit! Yao's made the ALL STAR GAMES, and TEAM USA!! and one of the among most popular Center in the game! so for you to even bring up this stupid question was pretty much a waste of everyones TIME!! Thanks lol (im being sarcastic)

lol

SteveNash
12-01-2009, 01:00 AM
He's the perfect teammate on offense. He never tries to do something he's not capable of. Most of his shots (66% last year) are three pointers, so while his FG% looks rough, his eFG% ranks 58th all-time. He's great at swinging the ball and is never hesitant to pass off to the better look. He takes care of the ball, granted it's not in his hands often or for a long period of time, but he doesn't turn the ball over. By RAPM, Battier was the #69th most efficient player on offense over the last 3 years, just ahead of Paul Pierce and Jose Calderon, respectively.

Yes, he's a smart player that knows his limitations, but lets be real, he isn't close to Pierce offensively.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 01:05 AM
Yes, he's a smart player that knows his limitations, but lets be real, he isn't close to Pierce offensively.

They have completely different games. I'd rather have Battier if I already had McGrady/Yao.

rapjuicer06
12-01-2009, 09:43 AM
i mean seriously dude, you dont even stay on topic, you blurt out your personal spite by bringing the dollars and injury situation to the table, and yet you'd rather turn this into a dick measuring contest than to rebutt with something logical. not a traditional post? do you even watch basketball? i mean i'd figure after 3000 posts you'd have some kind of sense, but i guess you'd rather spend it talking about video games and avatars. i'll take an over-rated 20/10/2 every day of the week. hey dont forget to swallow what espn gives you, i promise its all protein.

hahaha ok you take that 20/10/2 guy...hes on the bench for the whole season, but yea, take him. i'll take a 1/1/1 guy and get more production!

YAO IS OVER RATED

SteveNash
12-01-2009, 06:18 PM
They have completely different games. I'd rather have Battier if I already had McGrady/Yao.

Many teams have tried to do that in the draft, drafting based on need more than talent. While it works out sometimes, it's usually best to take the better talent. Even if a McGrady/Pierce combo wouldn't be effective (I disagree if they were healthy) you could at least trade one of them and get back more in return.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2009, 08:43 PM
No, Dwight gets abused by any competent offensive team. He's a dumb player on the level of Dalembert and will never be elite like Yao.

Now how exactly was I raving about the Hawks? All I remember saying is that them being ranked #1 in the power rankings was well deserved when they had the best record in the NBA.



Battier has been so underrated by some that he's become overrated.

I cant stand that term. Shane Battier belongs as a fixture on the first team all defense. He isnt. Therefore he is underrated.

ChiSox219
12-01-2009, 09:22 PM
Many teams have tried to do that in the draft, drafting based on need more than talent. While it works out sometimes, it's usually best to take the better talent. Even if a McGrady/Pierce combo wouldn't be effective (I disagree if they were healthy) you could at least trade one of them and get back more in return.

I think that's an entirely different argument. I agree you should always draft talent over need.

When you are looking to sign a FA or make a trade during the middle of a players career where you have a handle on what exactly they are, then I look for the best fit for my lineup. Pierce is a great player and I actually don't think I could take Battier over him, but it's close if I'm starting McGrady and Yao.

SteveNash
12-01-2009, 09:31 PM
I cant stand that term. Shane Battier belongs as a fixture on the first team all defense. He isnt. Therefore he is underrated.

I don't have a problem with Battier being on the second team behind LeBron too much.

While I wouldn't put LeBron on there, I can see the point some people will make about the offensive output.

If Battier was asked to take 30 shots a game, I think he'd be pretty gassed and wouldn't end up being a worse defender than LeBron.


I think that's an entirely different argument. I agree you should always draft talent over need.

When you are looking to sign a FA or make a trade during the middle of a players career where you have a handle on what exactly they are, then I look for the best fit for my lineup. Pierce is a great player and I actually don't think I could take Battier over him, but it's close if I'm starting McGrady and Yao.

Well with free agency you can take into consideration that Battier makes around half Pierce, so you could possibly have 2 players of Battier quality, then I could see your point. If it comes down to choosing either Battier or Pierce though, I don't think it's really a contest, as I said, Pierce has higher value than and you possibly get your two Battiers in trade if it doesn't work out.