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View Full Version : Phils + Beltre/ DeRosa vs. Mets + Lackey & Holliday



Ender
11-29-2009, 12:09 AM
We're having a pretty spirited debate in the NYM Forum over which team will be the better in '10 with the stated stipulations that the Phils add Beltre or DeRosa or a comparable 3B and the Mets add John Lackey and Matt Holliday.

I think it's still the Phils, but makes the Mets a good deal closer.

CQSox305
11-29-2009, 12:18 AM
IMO the Phils are still the team to beat in the NL.

Buckwheat
11-29-2009, 12:20 AM
That lineup with DeRosa would be deadlier, which isn't even fair. How can Mets fans say that with Lackey and Holliday they are better than the NL champs for the past two years, adding DeRosa?

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 12:23 AM
It wouldn't even be close... they have no depth and our offense and pitching would still be better.

Lee
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer,Drabek,Kendrick,Bastardo,or a free agent signing.

Hamels and Lidge getting back to their old selves would be like adding top top free agents in the off season... We got to the world series inspit of Hamels and Lidge.

fishfan79
11-29-2009, 12:25 AM
comparison forum for crap like this please use it

Ender
11-29-2009, 12:27 AM
comparison forum for crap like this please use it

Take it easy there, slugger. Wasn't aware of a comparison forum.

jetsfan89
11-29-2009, 12:27 AM
can someone close this? seriously its stupid to assume that the mets would sign lackey and holliday when its not gonna happen.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 12:27 AM
comparison forum for crap like this please use it

:facepalm:

Why post crap yourself? Easier just to not respond. If we put in our forums it will be mostly Bias genius. The point of this thread is to hear peoples opinions outside of the division as well. It is a big deal because we are the NL champs 2 years running and the Mets look like they will spend 400 million dollars.

EaglesJackson10
11-29-2009, 12:28 AM
Mets havent proved they can win and I dont think they will sign both guys maybe one but not both.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 12:28 AM
can someone close this? seriously its stupid to assume that the mets would sign lackey and holliday when its not gonna happen.

Again... ITS OPINION BASED... why is that so hard to digest. Why comment on something you believe to be stupid?

EaglesJackson10
11-29-2009, 12:29 AM
I dont know if people are aware of this but the Mets do not have the money the Yankees do. They have a ton of money but not even in the same realm as the yankees.

mark1125
11-29-2009, 12:33 AM
I would still go with Philly. Even with Lackey, the Mets pitching is still lacking.

WickedBadMan
11-29-2009, 12:36 AM
I would be fine, as the Mets would at least make the playoffs.

Ian.
11-29-2009, 12:40 AM
How about we discuss this IF those deals happen?

:nod:

Ender
11-29-2009, 12:49 AM
Just trying to have a discussion guys. You don't like the topic don't post. It's pretty easy.

The Bomb DeSean
11-29-2009, 12:59 AM
Dont see how you couldn't go with the Phillies to be honost.. back to back pennants and they have the depth, leadership, right manager and players to get them back to that point... upgrading from feliz in both defense (according to uzr) and offense would be greatly beneficial. We saw what Ibanez did coming from Safeco to CBP and i'd expect the same from Beltre in our lineup.

Unlike the phillies also signing one of the two, that's actually a very realistic possibility that will probably happen, unlike the Mets signing both lackey and holliday, let alone both. It just wont happen, period.

sofargone
11-29-2009, 01:13 AM
id still take the phils

infernoscurse
11-29-2009, 01:17 AM
yeah but could those teams beat the yankees + halladay, king felix, joe mauer, josh johnson + curtis granderson + matt holliday + albert pujols + joakim soria ?

The Bomb DeSean
11-29-2009, 01:20 AM
yeah but could those teams beat the yankees + halladay, king felix, joe mauer, josh johnson + curtis granderson + matt holliday + albert pujols + joakim soria ?

We signed Dwayne Wise and Juan Castro so I think I don't need to go any further with this.

MDfootball36
11-29-2009, 01:34 AM
mets suck simple as that

mark1125
11-29-2009, 01:46 AM
Just trying to have a discussion guys. You don't like the topic don't post. It's pretty easy.

Too many mod wannabes for that ever to happen.

metsfan316
11-29-2009, 01:52 AM
1B.Daniel Murphy<Ryan Howard(huge lead)
2B.Luis Castillo<Chase Utley(good lead)
3B.David Wright>Derosa/Beltre(good lead)
SS.Jose Reyes=Jimmy Rollins
RF.Jeff Francoeur<Jayson Werth(good lead)
CF.Carlos Beltran>Shane Victorino(close both really good)
LF.Matt Holliday>Raul Ibanez(good lead)
C.Omir Santos=Carlos Ruiz

Starters
Johan Santana>Cliff Lee(good lead)
John Lackey>Cole Hamels(close)
Mike Pelfrey<J.A Happ
Set up
Bobby Parnell vs ????
Closer
K-Rod>Brad Lidge(Huge Lead)
rest don't matter

TALLY
Mets:6
Phillies:4
Ties:2

IMO Mets would have the better team. But the Phils have team chemistry, and have good management. Not to mention they play in a Hitters park.

swagga81
11-29-2009, 02:12 AM
these moves are not going to happen :facepalm:

swagga81
11-29-2009, 02:14 AM
1B.Daniel Murphy<Ryan Howard(huge lead)
2B.Luis Castillo<Chase Utley(good lead)
3B.David Wright>Derosa/Beltre(good lead)
SS.Jose Reyes=Jimmy Rollins
RF.Jeff Francoeur<Jayson Werth(good lead)
CF.Carlos Beltran>Shane Victorino(close both really good)
LF.Matt Holliday>Raul Ibanez(good lead)
C.Omir Santos=Carlos Ruiz

Starters
Johan Santana>Cliff Lee(good lead)
John Lackey>Cole Hamels(close)
Mike Pelfrey<J.A Happ
Set up
Bobby Parnell vs ????
Closer
K-Rod>Brad Lidge(Huge Lead)
rest don't matter

TALLY
Mets:6
Phillies:4
Ties:2

IMO Mets would have the better team. But the Phils have team chemistry, and have good management. Not to mention they play in a Hitters park.
its a coin flip

Philly4life84
11-29-2009, 02:37 AM
its a coin flip

please tell me you didnt just say that Luis Castillo and Chase Utley was a coin flip?????

Ender
11-29-2009, 02:44 AM
So Howard has a huge lead over Murphy but Utley has only a good lead over Castillo?

1903
11-29-2009, 02:46 AM
The Mets would most likely enter September with a 5.5 game lead with that line up and finish 3.5 games back of the Phillies by the time October rolls around.

metsfan316
11-29-2009, 02:56 AM
So Howard has a huge lead over Murphy but Utley has only a good lead over Castillo?

It's lack of a better word.
It's like this, Murphy doesn't know what he's doing at first, and batted .260.
At least Castillo knows what he's doing at second(forget tht one horrble day where he dropped the ball), and batted .300.
Or think of it this way
Howard>Murphy Great>Trash
Utley>Castillo Great>Good

Philly4life84
11-29-2009, 02:59 AM
The Mets would most likely enter September with a 5.5 game lead with that line up and finish 3.5 games back of the Phillies by the time October rolls around.

hate the yankees but look at what number post you are haha

swagga81
11-29-2009, 03:03 AM
please tell me you didnt just say that Luis Castillo and Chase Utley was a coin flip?????

no i ment the other

Ender
11-29-2009, 03:04 AM
It's lack of a better word.
It's like this, Murphy doesn't know what he's doing at first, and batted .260.
At least Castillo knows what he's doing at second(forget tht one horrble day where he dropped the ball), and batted .300.
Or think of it this way
Howard>Murphy Great>Trash
Utley>Castillo Great>Good

Gotcha.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 03:43 AM
1B.Daniel Murphy<Ryan Howard(huge lead)
2B.Luis Castillo<Chase Utley(good lead)
3B.David Wright>Derosa/Beltre(good lead)
SS.Jose Reyes=Jimmy Rollins
RF.Jeff Francoeur<Jayson Werth(good lead)
CF.Carlos Beltran>Shane Victorino(close both really good)
LF.Matt Holliday>Raul Ibanez(good lead)
C.Omir Santos=Carlos Ruiz

Starters
Johan Santana>Cliff Lee(good lead)
John Lackey>Cole Hamels(close)
Mike Pelfrey<J.A Happ
Set up
Bobby Parnell vs ????
Closer
K-Rod>Brad Lidge(Huge Lead)
rest don't matter

TALLY
Mets:6
Phillies:4
Ties:2

IMO Mets would have the better team. But the Phils have team chemistry, and have good management. Not to mention they play in a Hitters park.

Please look at the bold... Utley destroys castillo... Uber lead. Yes uber. Cole hamels and lackey would be tied. K Rod has a lead on lidge but he was not great last year and ryan madson is our set up man and one of if not the best set up man in the league. Ruiz is all around better then santos and you forgot to toss in Blanton our most consistent pitcher last year against um Maine lmao. The gap between Lee and Santana is not that much.

1B.Daniel Murphy<Ryan Howard(huge lead) Advantage Phillies
2B.Luis Castillo<Chase Utley[B](huge lead) Advantage Phillies
3B.David Wright>Derosa/Beltre(good lead) Advantage Mets
SS.Jose Reyes=Jimmy Rollins Tie
RF.Jeff Francoeur<Jayson Werth(good lead) Advantage Phillies
CF.Carlos Beltran>Shane Victorino(close both really good) Advantage Mets
LF.Matt Holliday>Raul Ibanez(good lead) Advantage Mets
[B]C.Omir Santos<Carlos Ruiz{ close but ruiz is the better player} Advantage Phillies

Starters
Johan Santana>Cliff Lee( lead) Advantage Mets
[B]John Lackey=Cole Hamels Tie
Mike Pelfrey<J.A Happ Advantage Phillies
Maine<Blanton{good lead} Advantage Phillies
Set up
Bobby Parnell<Madson{ The best 8th inning guy in the league} Advantage Phillies
Closer
K-Rod>Brad Lidge(Huge Lead) Advantage Mets.

Final tally... Phillies 7... Mets 5


Here is the kicker... The phillies have DEPTH. They can fill a hole at anytime with major league ready talent from the minors. Our 5th starter could be anyone of the following, Free agent/Moyer/Bastardo/Lopez/Kendrick/Park/Drabek.

Your Name Here
11-29-2009, 03:43 AM
And if the Cubs trade for Hanley, Sizemore, Kinsler, and Halladay, then nobody else in the NL has a snowball's chance in hell.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 04:06 AM
And if the Cubs trade for Hanley, Sizemore, Kinsler, and Halladay, then nobody else in the NL has a snowball's chance in hell.


Lol they would still find away not to get to to world series.:D

Ron!n
11-29-2009, 04:35 AM
Please look at the bold... Utley destroys castillo... Uber lead. Yes uber. Cole hamels and lackey would be tied. K Rod has a lead on lidge but he was not great last year and ryan madson is our set up man and one of if not the best set up man in the league. Ruiz is all around better then santos and you forgot to toss in Blanton our most consistent pitcher last year against um Maine lmao. The gap between Lee and Santana is not that much.

1B.Daniel Murphy<Ryan Howard(huge lead) Advantage Phillies
2B.Luis Castillo<Chase Utley[B](huge lead) Advantage Phillies
3B.David Wright>Derosa/Beltre(good lead) Advantage Mets
SS.Jose Reyes=Jimmy Rollins Tie
RF.Jeff Francoeur<Jayson Werth(good lead) Advantage Phillies
CF.Carlos Beltran>Shane Victorino(close both really good) Advantage Mets
LF.Matt Holliday>Raul Ibanez(good lead) Advantage Mets
[B]C.Omir Santos<Carlos Ruiz{ close but ruiz is the better player} Advantage Phillies

Starters
Johan Santana>Cliff Lee( lead) Advantage Mets
[B]John Lackey=Cole Hamels Tie
Mike Pelfrey<J.A Happ Advantage Phillies
Maine<Blanton{good lead} Advantage Phillies
Set up
Bobby Parnell<Madson{ The best 8th inning guy in the league} Advantage Phillies
Closer
K-Rod>Brad Lidge(Huge Lead) Advantage Mets.

Final tally... Phillies 7... Mets 5


Here is the kicker... The phillies have DEPTH. They can fill a hole at anytime with major league ready talent from the minors. Our 5th starter could be anyone of the following, Free agent/Moyer/Bastardo/Lopez/Kendrick/Park/Drabek.
Lackey is better than Hamels.

Remember how Phils fans were scared that Hamels was starting game 7 last year? Yeah, Lackey is better.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 05:12 AM
Lackey is better than Hamels.

Remember how Phils fans were scared that Hamels was starting game 7 last year? Yeah, Lackey is better.

Yes because that makes lackey better :rolleyes:. Hamels has much more of an upside and is younger and has better stuff. He just had a down year. lackey didnt have an amazing year either... Not worth the 100 mill he is looking for. Will take Hamels over lackey. Also lackey is injury prone... And when the mets doctors get a hold of him he is as good as done.

zambo4president
11-29-2009, 06:29 AM
I don't even think the Phillies are good :shrug:

zambo4president
11-29-2009, 06:30 AM
And if the Cubs trade for Hanley, Sizemore, Kinsler, and Halladay, then nobody else in the NL has a snowball's chance in hell.

And Ryan Braun dies :pray:

thefeckcampaign
11-29-2009, 07:46 AM
This seems awfully familiar. Wasn't this discussion happening between the '08 & '09 seasons as well? ;)

gfixer33
11-29-2009, 09:19 AM
I don't even think the Phillies are good :shrug:
come on i don't like the phillies either but how can you say that?and as far as the question i think it would be close but would give edge to phils until mets prove otherwise.add holiday to braves and they could be in picture also.

infernoscurse
11-29-2009, 09:41 AM
And Ryan Braun dies :pray:

:sigh::pity::pity:

ritz
11-29-2009, 10:13 AM
The Phillies are a better team until the Mets prove otherwise, which I hope for year in and year out and it hasn't happened recently, so I guess we'll see.

YankeeFan28
11-29-2009, 10:29 AM
I hate the off season. People are so full of hope.

Fred
11-29-2009, 11:23 AM
I hate the off season. People are so full of hope.

+1

the only REAL question is whether the Yankees or Phillies make themselves better before the next next WS meeting between the 2 in '10

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 11:26 AM
Johan
Lackey
Ollie
Pelfrey
Maine

Lee
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer

I'm pretty sure we have a better rotation.

If we get Adam LaRoche and Bengie Molina as well, I think out offense would be comparable too.

Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Beltran
Holliday
LaRoche
Francouer
Molina

Rollins
Victorino
Utley
Howard
Ibanez
DeRosa
Werth
Ruiz

Pretty even lineups if you ask me. But that is just IF the Mets can get all these players, which probably won't happen.

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 11:31 AM
Please look at the bold... Utley destroys castillo... Uber lead. Yes uber. Cole hamels and lackey would be tied. K Rod has a lead on lidge but he was not great last year and ryan madson is our set up man and one of if not the best set up man in the league. Ruiz is all around better then santos and you forgot to toss in Blanton our most consistent pitcher last year against um Maine lmao. The gap between Lee and Santana is not that much.

1B.Daniel Murphy<Ryan Howard(huge lead) Advantage Phillies
2B.Luis Castillo<Chase Utley[B](huge lead) Advantage Phillies
3B.David Wright>Derosa/Beltre(good lead) Advantage Mets
SS.Jose Reyes=Jimmy Rollins Tie
RF.Jeff Francoeur<Jayson Werth(good lead) Advantage Phillies
CF.Carlos Beltran>Shane Victorino(close both really good) Advantage Mets
LF.Matt Holliday>Raul Ibanez(good lead) Advantage Mets
[B]C.Omir Santos<Carlos Ruiz{ close but ruiz is the better player} Advantage Phillies

Starters
Johan Santana>Cliff Lee( lead) Advantage Mets
[B]John Lackey=Cole Hamels Tie
Mike Pelfrey<J.A Happ Advantage Phillies
Maine<Blanton{good lead} Advantage Phillies
Set up
Bobby Parnell<Madson{ The best 8th inning guy in the league} Advantage Phillies
Closer
K-Rod>Brad Lidge(Huge Lead) Advantage Mets.

Final tally... Phillies 7... Mets 5


Here is the kicker... The phillies have DEPTH. They can fill a hole at anytime with major league ready talent from the minors. Our 5th starter could be anyone of the following, Free agent/Moyer/Bastardo/Lopez/Kendrick/Park/Drabek.

So Werthless has a "good lead" over Francouer, but Victorino is "close" to Beltran? You're hilarious. Catchers should be even. Ruiz is horrible. Reyes has a slight edge over Rollins. Lackey is much better than Hamels. Pelfrey and Maine are just as good as Happ and Blanton. Mets have a better overall bullpen.

If the Mets get this team and play like they SHOULD, then it will be a close race.

Fred
11-29-2009, 11:36 AM
So Werthless has a "good lead" over Francouer, but Victorino is "close" to Beltran? You're hilarious. Catchers should be even. Ruiz is horrible. Reyes has a slight edge over Rollins. Lackey is much better than Hamels. Pelfrey and Maine are just as good as Happ and Blanton. Mets have a better overall bullpen.

If the Mets get this team and play like they SHOULD, then it will be a close race.

and IF the ball bounces their way, and IF they go injury-free, and IF they can pitch to their potential and IF their GM can bring someone in that doesn't speak spanish, and IF (fill in the blank)......

listen to yourself....

infernoscurse
11-29-2009, 11:47 AM
if i were a met fan i would wait till my team wins something before talking cause it makes no sense to say ohh our team would so be much better , reyes has an edge over rollins, ruiz sucks, werthless this john maine is like happ

LOL

when the mets actually prove something then i would talk if i were a met fan cause i dont see where this confidense comes from to be able to talk smack at the phillies after the mets have been such a joke for the last couple of years

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 11:56 AM
I'd probably still take the Phillies but the better team on paper doesn't always win...

They won't sign both of them but will probably sign Holliday and add two starters either via trade or free agency.

They'll also probably trade Castillo and sign Hudson, Figgins or Polanco.

But who knows... Mets could do anything. But I expect them to but together a team that can compete with the Phillies.

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 12:08 PM
if i were a met fan i would wait till my team wins something before talking cause it makes no sense to say ohh our team would so be much better , reyes has an edge over rollins, ruiz sucks, werthless this john maine is like happ

LOL

when the mets actually prove something then i would talk if i were a met fan cause i dont see where this confidense comes from to be able to talk smack at the phillies after the mets have been such a joke for the last couple of years

Most wins in the NL from 06-08... thats a nice thing to have... we sort of ride on that, we haven't done much else.

We also had one of the most unlucky season in baseball history last year... so that's a another things...

papirico52
11-29-2009, 12:24 PM
Ugh mets fans are so stuborn the phils have won the NL east since 07 and they still think they are better :facepalm:

psp66
11-29-2009, 12:50 PM
you will all play 2nd fiddle to the yankees,just like this year.next year we establish number 28!

psp66
11-29-2009, 12:53 PM
all mets fans live in fantasyland,1986 was 23 years ago,get a clue!

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 12:55 PM
you will all play 2nd fiddle to the yankees,just like this year.next year we establish number 28!


all mets fans live in fantasyland,1986 was 23 years ago,get a clue!

I remember my first beer

nymetsrule
11-29-2009, 01:12 PM
you will all play 2nd fiddle to the yankees,just like this year.next year we establish number 28!

2nd seat sometimes has some beautiful solos, young grasshopper.

dasam12
11-29-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm a Mets fan but I admit the Phillies are the class of the NL right now.
Mets will be alot better this year but they need another arm along with Lackey to take the East.

oak2455
11-29-2009, 01:26 PM
I'd probably still take the Phillies but the better team on paper doesn't always win...

They won't sign both of them but will probably sign Holliday and add two starters either via trade or free agency.

They'll also probably trade Castillo and sign Hudson, Figgins or Polanco.

But who knows... Mets could do anything. But I expect them to but together a team that can compete with the Phillies.

Heres the breakdown of the Mets and their fans:
FIRST - The G.M is a joke and if he puts together another crap year hes gone
SECOND- The manager is a complete joke even if you didnt have the better team hes not out managing anyone. They are one of the worst managed teams in all of sports
THIRD- your not even competing with the Marlins and the Braves forget about the Phillies for a while theyre in a league all by themselves
Fourth-Your not getting every top free agent available there are other teams who have needs and more money to spend than the Mets, and will out bid you...

If you sign Holliday hes over 100 million then what you sign Lackey another 80 million at least this is coming from a franchise thats saying there not going to spend that much, and even if you do.... you think your out bidding the top Teams, I don't think so....

I heard Rick Ankiel and Bengie Molina, big moves:facepalm:

oak2455
11-29-2009, 01:29 PM
I remember my first beer

was that yesterday:eyebrow:

oak2455
11-29-2009, 01:32 PM
if i were a met fan i would wait till my team wins something before talking cause it makes no sense to say ohh our team would so be much better , reyes has an edge over rollins, ruiz sucks, werthless this john maine is like happ

LOL

when the mets actually prove something then i would talk if i were a met fan cause i dont see where this confidense comes from to be able to talk smack at the phillies after the mets have been such a joke for the last couple of years

thats the big problem with the Met fans they always talk a great game, I remember like it was yesterday getting off the train from Game 2 of the 2000 World Series with my brother, and two Met fans saying you guys are sooooo lucky wait you'll see we'll take the next 4.......still waiting....still waiting:)

Zmaster52
11-29-2009, 01:35 PM
The phils Are the bettr team until we beat them

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 01:36 PM
Heres the breakdown of the Mets and their fans:
FIRST - The G.M is a joke and if he puts together another crap year hes gone
SECOND- The manager is a complete joke even if you didnt have the better team hes not out managing anyone. They are one of the worst managed teams in all of sports
THIRD- your not even competing with the Marlins and the Braves forget about the Phillies for a while theyre in a league all by themselves
Fourth-Your not getting every top free agent available there are other teams who have needs and more money to spend than the Mets, and will out bid you...

If you sign Holliday hes over 100 million then what you sign Lackey another 80 million at least this is coming from a franchise thats saying there not going to spend that much, and even if you do.... you think your out bidding the top Teams, I don't think so....

I heard Rick Ankiel and Bengie Molina, big moves:facepalm:

Not sure what the point of that was... but thanks.

I agree Omar has messed up a lot and probably should be fired (this is coming from a big Omar fan) but why is our manager a joke?

And yes our real team would compete with the Marlins, Braves and Phillies... last year we were missing half our team. Take Lee, Rollins, Howard, Utley and Werth away from the Phillies and lets see how good they do.

And I never said they would sign Lackey... And when Jeff said Omar can get whatever players he wants this off-season, Omar saying they will sign big free agents, how does that sound like they won't spend much?

And new flash, we can out spend the top spending teams because we are a top spending team... and to be more specific a 2nd highest spending team in baseball.

oak2455
11-29-2009, 01:52 PM
Not sure what the point of that was... but thanks.

I agree Omar has messed up a lot and probably should be fired (this is coming from a big Omar fan) but why is our manager a joke?

And yes our real team would compete with the Marlins, Braves and Phillies... last year we were missing half our team. Take Lee, Rollins, Howard, Utley and Werth away from the Phillies and lets see how good they do.

And I never said they would sign Lackey... And when Jeff said Omar can get whatever players he wants this off-season, Omar saying they will sign big free agents, how does that sound like they won't spend much?

And new flash, we can out spend the top spending teams because we are a top spending team... and to be more specific a 2nd highest spending team in baseball.

Lets start with your manager you think he's good?? The Fundamentals of baseball are not in his criteria.... Ok where would you rank him? lets just start in you own division, forget all of baseball??

Plus your a big fan of Omars then I see where this is going right down the drain like every other year....good luck because you'll need it:) Livian Hernandez is out there:rolleyes: go get him

Ok get back to me when you make all these signings and player moves can't wait....they just cant wait to play for the Mets like Carlos Beltran when he came back to the Yankees for less money, before signing with the Mets......remember?

ritz
11-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Phillies fans have all the room in the world to talk **** to Mets fans. They've won the division the last 3 seasons, have been to the WS twice and won it once.

On the other hand I do find it funny that in the past 3 years the Marlins and Braves have finished in front of the Mets once and that was due to injuries, yes, they're part of the game, but lets be serious here the Mets can easily compete with the Braves and the Marlins. Don't let one year when the team was missing their big time players fool you. I'm not coming in here to say "Oh, wait until 2010", but judging what the Mets are capable of based on 2009 is just silly.

Ian.
11-29-2009, 01:59 PM
Can we close this stupid thread?

oak2455
11-29-2009, 02:00 PM
This thread is such a joke really what if the Yankees go get Matt Holliday, Roy Halladay,and John Lackey then what will baseball do?? I guess I'll just watch October Baseball:clap: what if what if what if:eyebrow:

ritz
11-29-2009, 02:03 PM
Agreed on closing it. These never end well.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2009, 02:06 PM
Not sure what the point of that was... but thanks.

I agree Omar has messed up a lot and probably should be fired (this is coming from a big Omar fan) but why is our manager a joke?

And yes our real team would compete with the Marlins, Braves and Phillies... last year we were missing half our team. Take Lee, Rollins, Howard, Utley and Werth away from the Phillies and lets see how good they do.

And I never said they would sign Lackey... And when Jeff said Omar can get whatever players he wants this off-season, Omar saying they will sign big free agents, how does that sound like they won't spend much?

And new flash, we can out spend the top spending teams because we are a top spending team... and to be more specific a 2nd highest spending team in baseball.

You had a real team for the last 3 seasons and still keep falling short. Please stop with the excuses. Last year when reyes went down you guys werent that great either... were a few games over 500 and tied for the division... a division in which the rest of the teams were playing badly at the time. Yes you guys might have stayed competitive but the additions of Lee,Francisco and martinez would have put us over the top anyway. You guys need to worry less about overpaying 2 overrated players 100 millions dollars each and actually try to fill several holes and add depth. Also stop trying to compete with the Phillies... They are in a different league then you guys... Worry about a team that's just above you in the marlins and braves and not a team that's far above you in the Phillies.


On a side note I love all the contradictions... All you met fans hate on Yankees fans and their team so much for buying players but you guys are all for dropping 200 mill on 2 players as well.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 02:27 PM
Gotta love the Phils-Mets rivalry back in action!

I just really hope the Mets sign Bengie Molina this offseason, I will laugh the rest of the winter away.

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 02:29 PM
Lets start with your manager you think he's good?? The Fundamentals of baseball are not in his criteria.... Ok where would you rank him? lets just start in you own division, forget all of baseball??

Plus your a big fan of Omars then I see where this is going right down the drain like every other year....good luck because you'll need it:) Livian Hernandez is out there:rolleyes: go get him

Ok get back to me when you make all these signings and player moves can't wait....they just cant wait to play for the Mets like Carlos Beltran when he came back to the Yankees for less money, before signing with the Mets......remember?

I wish any of this made sense but I'll try to answer it...

He's not a great manager but he's not a joke.

Mets spend a lot of money but the Yankees still spend $50M+ than the Mets... that's the difference. I have no problem with a team spending money. If you got the money spend it... a lot of teams make money but they don't spend it.

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 02:30 PM
Gotta love the Phils-Mets rivalry back in action!

I just really hope the Mets sign Bengie Molina this offseason, I will laugh the rest of the winter away.

I don't know why so many Mets fans want to sign him... doesn't make sense to me.

elizur
11-29-2009, 02:48 PM
It wouldn't even be close... they have no depth and our offense and pitching would still be better.

Lee
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer,Drabek,Kendrick,Bastardo,or a free agent signing.

Hamels and Lidge getting back to their old selves would be like adding top top free agents in the off season... We got to the world series inspit of Hamels and Lidge.

you also lost to the Yankees because of Hamels and Lidge.

nymetsrule
11-29-2009, 03:15 PM
You had a real team for the last 3 seasons and still keep falling short. Please stop with the excuses. Last year when reyes went down you guys werent that great either... were a few games over 500 and tied for the division... a division in which the rest of the teams were playing badly at the time. Yes you guys might have stayed competitive but the additions of Lee,Francisco and martinez would have put us over the top anyway. You guys need to worry less about overpaying 2 overrated players 100 millions dollars each and actually try to fill several holes and add depth. Also stop trying to compete with the Phillies... They are in a different league then you guys... Worry about a team that's just above you in the marlins and braves and not a team that's far above you in the Phillies.


On a side note I love all the contradictions... All you met fans hate on Yankees fans and their team so much for buying players but you guys are all for dropping 200 mill on 2 players as well.

You do realize you spelled "than" incorrectly in your name, right? :laugh:

oak2455
11-29-2009, 03:44 PM
I wish any of this made sense but I'll try to answer it...

He's not a great manager but he's not a joke.

Mets spend a lot of money but the Yankees still spend $50M+ than the Mets... that's the difference. I have no problem with a team spending money. If you got the money spend it... a lot of teams make money but they don't spend it.

Ok thats the difference 50 million...... and that got you what? So 70-92 WOW, you should spend some money something not working.....Btw the Yankees had a ton of players on the DL in 2008 and just missed the playoffs, so dont really know where you going with this :speechless:

Btw Manuel is a joke ask any Met fan:)

oak2455
11-29-2009, 03:47 PM
[/B]

you also lost to the Yankees because of Hamels and Lidge.

Not a Phillies fan but you lost to who:confused:

johnnylee722
11-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Ok thats the difference 50 million...... and that got you what? So 70-92 WOW, you should spend some money something not working.....Btw the Yankees had a ton of players on the DL in 2008 and just missed the playoffs, so dont really know where you going with this :speechless:

Btw Manuel is a joke ask any Met fan:)

Jesus... never mind... you're too dumb to debate with...

bartoron
11-29-2009, 05:03 PM
Even if the Mets get John Lackey and Matt Holiday, the Phillies will still be better. The Mets starting pitching just can't compare, and the Phillies already have an amazing offense.

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 05:40 PM
I'd probably still take the Phillies but the better team on paper doesn't always win...

They won't sign both of them but will probably sign Holliday and add two starters either via trade or free agency.

They'll also probably trade Castillo and sign Hudson, Figgins or Polanco.

But who knows... Mets could do anything. But I expect them to but together a team that can compete with the Phillies.

Trade Castillo for Millwood. Sign Holliday, Lackey, Figgens, and Molina.

Reyes
Figgens
Wright
Beltran
Holliday
Francouer
Murphy
Molina

Johan
Lackey
Ollie
Millwood
Pelfrey

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 05:44 PM
Heres the breakdown of the Mets and their fans:
FIRST - The G.M is a joke and if he puts together another crap year hes gone
SECOND- The manager is a complete joke even if you didnt have the better team hes not out managing anyone. They are one of the worst managed teams in all of sports
THIRD- your not even competing with the Marlins and the Braves forget about the Phillies for a while theyre in a league all by themselves
Fourth-Your not getting every top free agent available there are other teams who have needs and more money to spend than the Mets, and will out bid you...

If you sign Holliday hes over 100 million then what you sign Lackey another 80 million at least this is coming from a franchise thats saying there not going to spend that much, and even if you do.... you think your out bidding the top Teams, I don't think so....

I heard Rick Ankiel and Bengie Molina, big moves:facepalm:

Omar is a great GM. The Wilpons weren't allowing him to spend what he needed to in order to get a winning team on the field last year. Now they said they are.
Our manager sucks, but so does the Yankees and look what they did this year.
We only didn't compete with the Marlins and Braves last year because of INJURIES. Even if we don't get everyone we want, on paper, we are the second best team in the NL East.
And how many teams have more money then the Mets. I count 1. Maybe 2.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 05:49 PM
Trade Castillo for Millwood. Sign Holliday, Lackey, Figgens, and Molina.

Reyes
Figgens
Wright
Beltran
Holliday
Francouer
Murphy
Molina

Johan
Lackey
Ollie
Millwood
Pelfrey

Why in god's name would the Rangers do that? Why not have them throw in Ian Kinsler to fill the hole at 2B

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 05:52 PM
Even if the Mets get John Lackey and Matt Holiday, the Phillies will still be better. The Mets starting pitching just can't compare, and the Phillies already have an amazing offense.

I'm not saying Mets would be better, but how won't the pitching compare?

Our 1-2 is better than the Phillies 1-2. And if you think Happ, Blanton, and Moyer over Pelfrey, Ollie, and Maine really make up for it, you're crazy.

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 05:53 PM
Why in god's name would the Rangers do that? Why not have them throw in Ian Kinsler to fill the hole at 2B

You obviously didn't hear about the trade rumor of Castillo going to Chicago, Bradley going to Texas, and Millwood coming to New York...

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 05:55 PM
You obviously didn't hear about the trade rumor of Castillo going to Chicago, Bradley going to Texas, and Millwood coming to New York...

You mean the deal that a Rangers official laughed at and then said "not happening."

Plus, Bradley actually fits on the Rangers a LITTLE bit, where Castillo has ZERO role on the Rangers.

Your Name Here
11-29-2009, 05:55 PM
Yea, you can, but I'll ask again, why? How does a thread you find stupid impede you from just ignoring a thread?

I know I can ignore people like you that wish they had infinitly large e-penis' and I have, but now I ask why do you feel the need to go into a thread and say close it. Just wondering why you would even waste your time. I'm not expecting an answer that makes any sense but I'll just go back to ignoring it.

I'm guessing it's for the same reason you are still in this thread, even though as you just said earlier, you don't care about the topic.

Because you can.

GimmeAD
11-29-2009, 05:57 PM
You obviously didn't hear about the trade rumor of Castillo going to Chicago, Bradley going to Texas, and Millwood coming to New York...

and you obviously didn't hear it was complete bull****.

Your Name Here
11-29-2009, 05:57 PM
You obviously didn't hear about the trade rumor of Castillo going to Chicago, Bradley going to Texas, and Millwood coming to New York...

Castillo sucks like a Singapore hooker.

He sucks hard and long, and you'll probably get 8 different kinds of disease from it.

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 05:58 PM
You mean the deal that a Rangers official laughed at and then said "not happening."

Plus, Bradley actually fits on the Rangers a LITTLE bit, where Castillo has ZERO role on the Rangers.

Once again, Castillo will be going to the CUBS not the Rangers.

Your Name Here
11-29-2009, 05:59 PM
Once again, Castillo will be going to the CUBS not the Rangers.

And since I'm a Cubs fan, I don't even want his sorry *** in the same time zone as Chicago.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 05:59 PM
Once again, Castillo will be going to the CUBS not the Rangers.

Once again...


Said one high-ranking Rangers official bluntly: "Not happening."

YankeeFan28
11-29-2009, 06:20 PM
Next off topic post leads to a ban

nymetsrule
11-29-2009, 06:24 PM
The Mets will be a competing team if they sign what they need this off-season. Will they win the division? Who knows, the baseball gods have not been very predicable for many teams in recent years.

Ender
11-29-2009, 06:44 PM
Lackey is better than Hamels.

Remember how Phils fans were scared that Hamels was starting game 7 last year? Yeah, Lackey is better.

Hamels had a completely predictable down year. I would have been fine with him starting Game 7 had we gotten there. But it was a foregone conclusion we would NOT be getting there when Pedro came out with 84MPH gas in Game 6.


Agreed on closing it. These never end well.

I was having a back-and-forth with a Met poster on this hypothetcial situation, I just wanted objective, oustide opinions. Didn't know (though I should have guessed) it was just going to turn into a flame-fest.

It is my considered opinion that, even if the Mets add Holliday and Lackey (and the Phils sign Beltre) that the Phils still have a sizeable lead over the Mets in terms of overall talent, though the Mets would seriously cut into the gap with those 2 guys.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 06:48 PM
The Mets will be a competing team if they sign what they need this off-season. Will they win the division? Who knows, the baseball gods have not been very predicable for many teams in recent years.

"What they need" is a whole lot more than you think. Lackey + Holliday might help them, but they will still be third in the division IMO. You have Reyes who had a torn calf and a torn hamstring and you aren't worried at all about your depth at SS?

Your rotation consists of an ace who is going through some elbow problems, a pitcher coming off a slew of injuries, a guy with ZERO control or consistency, and a couple of young arms who are unproven, AND the only guy who remained healthy for the majority of the season vastly underachieved after high expectations. And you think Lackey will fix this? To me you would be much better off signing 2 or 3 quality arms, rather than one stud arm.

Lackey + Holliday cover some of the problems, but still leave you with significant depth issues. A Team stated over and over last year that you had no depth to account for injury. Granted, you had a historically injury riddled season, but you still would have been screwed with 1/3rd of those injuries.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 06:53 PM
"What they need" is a whole lot more than you think. Lackey + Holliday might help them, but they will still be third in the division IMO. You have Reyes who had a torn calf and a torn hamstring and you aren't worried at all about your depth at SS?

Your rotation consists of an ace who is going through some elbow problems, a pitcher coming off a slew of injuries, a guy with ZERO control or consistency, and a couple of young arms who are unproven, AND the only guy who remained healthy for the majority of the season vastly underachieved after high expectations. And you think Lackey will fix this? To me you would be much better off signing 2 or 3 quality arms, rather than one stud arm.

Lackey + Holliday cover some of the problems, but still leave you with significant depth issues. A Team stated over and over last year that you had no depth to account for injury. Granted, you had a historically injury riddled season, but you still would have been screwed with 1/3rd of those injuries.
You have a short stop that regressed into a bum, your "ace" pitched not as well as expected, and you had a mediocre bullpen arm came up to the majors and put up extremely lucky stats. Moyer is also a bum.

3/5 of your rotation is questionable and you're not concerned about your depth at short stop ? :speechless:

See I can play this game too.

You Philly peeps talk on and on about depth.

What the **** would the Phillies have done if Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Cliff Lee, and Shane Victorino all went under the knife?

Oh right, call up Chase Junior , sonny Ryan, and others from the minors. They'd replace that production real well.

Get real. :rolleyes:

The Mets had arguably the worst case of injuries in MLB history. If they had their whole team intact like you did, this whole discussion about depth wouldn't be taking place.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 06:58 PM
I don't get why the young guns aren't getting playing time. I really don't.

We aren't winning with Jeffries, Hughes, and Al hogging all the playing time.

Just give the damn reigns to Toney, Gallo, Will, and Jordan. I'd rather lose every game and have them develop than miss the playoffs by a few games and waste their development. The 15th couldn't come soon enough.

lbz88
11-29-2009, 07:01 PM
Baseball is a team sport and face it, Manuel has philly playing as a team. NY has the talent but can't get it to work together.

ritz
11-29-2009, 07:10 PM
I was having a back-and-forth with a Met poster on this hypothetcial situation, I just wanted objective, oustide opinions. Didn't know (though I should have guessed) it was just going to turn into a flame-fest.

Understandable, but some people have problems looking at things objectively on both sides and in turn it leads to a ***** fest about "who the team to beat" is.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 07:13 PM
I do love feasting on noobs, and here weeee gooooo!





You have a short stop that regressed into a bum,

You mean Jimmy Rollins? Finished 16th in WAR this year among SS, despite an AWFUL offensive campaign. Is he as good offensively as he was in 06, 07, or even 08? No. Should he be a leadoff hitter? No. Was he as bad as his first half in 09? No. Even if he has a similarly horrid offensive campaign in 2010, he is a middle of the pack SS. Realistically, he will slightly improve upon those horrid offensive numbers and be a top 10 SS again. Bill James has Rollins wOBA at .337, which is fair in my opinion. Between 08 and 09 and would easily put him back in the top 10 SS, so bum? I think not.

Oh and did I mention that he played 135+ games in each of his 9 years in baseball. 150+ in 8 of his 9 years. So we do not have a durability concern at SS.


your "ace" pitched not as well as expected,

Yet still posted very respectable numbers over the course of the year despite a terrible BABIP. Is he as good as 08? Probably not. As bad as 09? No. As a number two, he is fine.




and you had a mediocre bullpen arm come up to the majors and put up extremely lucky stats.

Are you talking about Happ? Happ has always been pinned as a 3rd or 4th starter. He will of course not be as good as 2009, but we don't need him to be.




Moyer is also a bum.

K.





3/5 of your rotation is questionable and you're not concerned about your depth at short stop ? :speechless:

1/5




See I can play this game too.

You are doing a pretty bad job at it.





You Philly peeps talk on and on about depth.

Right, because it matters.




What the **** would the Phillies have done if Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Cliff Lee, and Shane Victorino all went under the knife?

Did I say the Phillies don't have depth problems? No. But our depth issues are much less significant than the Mets. If our starters go down this year, we have Kyle Kendrick and Andrew Carpenter who are more than serviceable for a month of replacement. Both can be a 5th starter, though I like them more as injury replacements. At OF, we have 2 of the best 25 prospects in the MLB at OF in Domonic Brown and Michael Taylor. Taylor will be ready by June if serious injury is encountered and Brown will be ready by 2011.

Our depth issue is at infield, where we have very little to supplant injury. Luckily... Howard, Utley, and Rollins are very durable players who have showed no signs of breaking down. Only Utley had a serious injury and I would say he responded quite well in 09.




Oh right, call up Chase Junior , sonny Ryan, and others from the minors. They'd replace that production real well.

Chase Junior does not exist. I don't know what "sonny Ryan" means.





The Mets had arguably the worst case of injuries in MLB history. If they had their whole team intact like you did, this whole discussion about depth wouldn't be taking place.

Yes it would. Keep underestimating depth. See you in 2010 junior.

Twins Fan 7
11-29-2009, 07:16 PM
Phils would still be way better.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 07:20 PM
Phils would still be way better.

Be prepared to get raped by Hustla, he is so much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

GimmeAD
11-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Be prepared to get raped by Hustla, he is so much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

You mean be prepared for a whole slew of well if this didn't happen and if this did happen. He lives in a world all his own.

ritz
11-29-2009, 07:25 PM
Yes it would. Keep underestimating depth. See you in 2010 junior.

Depth is vitally important, but to the Mets' defense their replacement players got hurt. It hurt to watch.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 07:32 PM
Depth is vitally important, but to the Mets' defense their replacement players got hurt. It hurt to watch.

I completely agree. I've said it over and over that the Mets season was historically injury riddled. However, I think that even with just one or two regulars injured, you would have been in trouble. I also believe that some of the Mets players are just injury prone. This includes Reyes, Maine, and possibly add Beltran to that list. We will have to see how he responds in 2010. The closest player that the Phils have to being called "injury-prone" is Hamels, who is more precautious than injury prone. For instance, he did not start certain games last year because of mild discomfort in his arm, even though numerous MRI's showed there was no issue.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 07:45 PM
I do love feasting on noobs, and here weeee gooooo!






You mean Jimmy Rollins? Finished 16th in WAR this year among SS, despite an AWFUL offensive campaign. Is he as good offensively as he was in 06, 07, or even 08? No. Should he be a leadoff hitter? No. Was he as bad as his first half in 09? No. Even if he has a similarly horrid offensive campaign in 2010, he is a middle of the pack SS. Realistically, he will slightly improve upon those horrid offensive numbers and be a top 10 SS again. Bill James has Rollins wOBA at .337, which is fair in my opinion. Between 08 and 09 and would easily put him back in the top 10 SS, so bum? I think not.

Oh and did I mention that he played 135+ games in each of his 9 years in baseball. 150+ in 8 of his 9 years. So we do not have a durability concern at SS.



Yet still posted very respectable numbers over the course of the year despite a terrible BABIP. Is he as good as 08? Probably not. As bad as 09? No. As a number two, he is fine.




Are you talking about Happ? Happ has always been pinned as a 3rd or 4th starter. He will of course not be as good as 2009, but we don't need him to be.




K.





1/5




You are doing a pretty bad job at it.





Right, because it matters.




Did I say the Phillies don't have depth problems? No. But our depth issues are much less significant than the Mets. If our starters go down this year, we have Kyle Kendrick and Andrew Carpenter who are more than serviceable for a month of replacement. Both can be a 5th starter, though I like them more as injury replacements. At OF, we have 2 of the best 25 prospects in the MLB at OF in Domonic Brown and Michael Taylor. Taylor will be ready by June if serious injury is encountered and Brown will be ready by 2011.

Our depth issue is at infield, where we have very little to supplant injury. Luckily... Howard, Utley, and Rollins are very durable players who have showed no signs of breaking down. Only Utley had a serious injury and I would say he responded quite well in 09.




Chase Junior does not exist. I don't know what "sonny Ryan" means.





Yes it would. Keep underestimating depth. See you in 2010 junior.
Boy, do I love feasting on ignorant noobs.

Hereeee weeeee goooooooo !

Rollins finished 16th in WAR due almost solely to his defense. And even that has been declining every year. Declining defense + regressed offense + age = bum. Sure, he might not be as bad as he was this year, but we don't know this do we ? He might be worse, he might be better. He is a question mark, period.

I admit that Hamels is still a good pitcher, but he has been regressing, surely even you can see this. Decreasing tRA+ coupled with declining k/9 rates spells bad signs. Maybe he'll be better, worse, once again, question mark.

Happ posted an average tRA+ with a very low (fortunate) BABIP. His ERA production was a great many cause for your wins this past year. It's safe to say his peripherals will catch up with him, leading to decreased production. Question mark.

Kendrick, Moyer, and other 5th starter options are all bums and suck to no end. Question mark.

The only constant is Lee. So I was being generous. 4/5 of the rotation is full of question marks.

Once again, you fail to answer the question. What would have occurred if Utley, Howard, Victorino, as well as Rollins and Lee, Blanton ALL went down?

So Dominic Brown and Taylor would have replaced all this production? Really? Are you that dumb?

The Mets played with their backups the entire year. Just backups. I'm sure your team would fare much better if all the minor league studs took their place :rolleyes:

Angel Pagan stepped up immensely and showed his value as a great 4th outfielder. Fernando Tatis is one of our most versatile players and brings pop to almost every infield position.

You can have all the depth in the world but if you lose 4-5 all star caliber players for a sustained period, you are screwed regardless. You are a blind fool to suggest that any team would have enough depth to cover the production of 4-5 all stars.

Every team has question marks. Trying to pin the Mets as having the most holes is ignorant and irrational considering every team, including your own, has question marks and holes.

thefeckcampaign
11-29-2009, 07:46 PM
What did I miss? I didn't check the forum for a few hours and all this excitement occurred.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 07:46 PM
^ Hustla, You spent all that time coming up with that? :pity: Well at least you made it clear that your posts aren't worth responding to.

Now that we have that cleared up. If anyone wants to continue the current conversation on depth, feel free! I love how these threads evolve :)

Ender
11-29-2009, 07:47 PM
I do love feasting on noobs, and here weeee gooooo!

You mean Jimmy Rollins? Finished 16th in WAR this year among SS, despite an AWFUL offensive campaign. Is he as good offensively as he was in 06, 07, or even 08? No. Should he be a leadoff hitter? No. Was he as bad as his first half in 09? No. Even if he has a similarly horrid offensive campaign in 2010, he is a middle of the pack SS. Realistically, he will slightly improve upon those horrid offensive numbers and be a top 10 SS again. Bill James has Rollins wOBA at .337, which is fair in my opinion. Between 08 and 09 and would easily put him back in the top 10 SS, so bum? I think not.

Oh and did I mention that he played 135+ games in each of his 9 years in baseball. 150+ in 8 of his 9 years. So we do not have a durability concern at SS.

Yet still posted very respectable numbers over the course of the year despite a terrible BABIP. Is he as good as 08? Probably not. As bad as 09? No. As a number two, he is fine.

Are you talking about Happ? Happ has always been pinned as a 3rd or 4th starter. He will of course not be as good as 2009, but we don't need him to be.

K.

1/5

You are doing a pretty bad job at it.

Right, because it matters.

Did I say the Phillies don't have depth problems? No. But our depth issues are much less significant than the Mets. If our starters go down this year, we have Kyle Kendrick and Andrew Carpenter who are more than serviceable for a month of replacement. Both can be a 5th starter, though I like them more as injury replacements. At OF, we have 2 of the best 25 prospects in the MLB at OF in Domonic Brown and Michael Taylor. Taylor will be ready by June if serious injury is encountered and Brown will be ready by 2011.

Our depth issue is at infield, where we have very little to supplant injury. Luckily... Howard, Utley, and Rollins are very durable players who have showed no signs of breaking down. Only Utley had a serious injury and I would say he responded quite well in 09.

Chase Junior does not exist. I don't know what "sonny Ryan" means.

Yes it would. Keep underestimating depth. See you in 2010 junior.

I was going to pipe in here but, damn... that was pretty thorough.


Be prepared to get raped by Hustla, he is so much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

You can not and will not sway him from any single one of his beliefs. That's fine, I guess, but stubborn bullheadedness adds nothing to the conversation.


You mean be prepared for a whole slew of well if this didn't happen and if this did happen. He lives in a world all his own.

Don't forget wOBS's and WAR's where a .004 edge to a player he likes = DOMINANANCE! All hail Matt Holliday!


Depth is vitally important, but to the Mets' defense their replacement players got hurt. It hurt to watch.

There is not a single Phillies fan with a shred of intelligence who believes the Mets could and should have overcome their injury problems. It was unprecedented. That said, they were entirely predicatble, in most cases, since guys liek Beltran and Delgado have always carried a pretty significant injury risk.

The most troubling one is Reyes. As much as I hate him and his 5-minute celebrations for taking Ball 1, he's a dynamic player whose entire game is based on speed and he's got a bum wheel now.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 07:50 PM
You can not and will not sway him from any single one of his beliefs. That's fine, I guess, but stubborn bullheadedness adds nothing to the conversation.


Yeah, I just noticed that after he said something about me refusing to answer after I clearly addressed the question. Sorry it took me this long to realize he was just here to troll :(

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 07:54 PM
^ Hustla, You spent all that time coming up with that? :pity: Well at least you made it clear that your posts aren't worth responding to.

Now that we have that cleared up. If anyone wants to continue the current conversation on depth, feel free! I love how these threads evolve :)
Haha, you're backing out. Typical loser response.

Just like your friend Ender.

You guys are weak and seriously so afraid to engage in debate in which you get smashed it's funny.

You insult, call names, and refuse to engage in intelligent discussion.

Not surprising at all. Not one bit.

And actually no, I wrote that up between the timeout during the Knicks game.

Another win for me. This is too easy :)

Ender
11-29-2009, 07:54 PM
Boy, do I love feasting on ignorant noobs.

Hereeee weeeee goooooooo !

Rollins finished 16th in WAR due almost solely to his defense. And even that has been declining every year. Declining defense + regressed offense + age = bum. Sure, he might not be as bad as he was this year, but we don't know this do we ? He might be worse, he might be better. He is a question mark, period.

I admit that Hamels is still a good pitcher, but he has been regressing, surely even you can see this. Decreasing tRA+ coupled with declining k/9 rates spells bad signs. Maybe he'll be better, worse, once again, question mark.

Happ posted an average tRA+ with a very low (fortunate) BABIP. His ERA production was a great many cause for your wins this past year. It's safe to say his peripherals will catch up with him, leading to decreased production. Question mark.

Kendrick, Moyer, and other 5th starter options are all bums and suck to no end. Question mark.

The only constant is Lee. So I was being generous. 4/5 of the rotation is full of question marks.

Once again, you fail to answer the question. What would have occurred if Utley, Howard, Victorino, as well as Rollins and Lee, Blanton ALL went down?

So Dominic Brown and Taylor would have replaced all this production? Really? Are you that dumb?

The Mets played with their backups the entire year. Just backups. I'm sure your team would fare much better if all the minor league studs took their place :rolleyes:

Angel Pagan stepped up immensely and showed his value as a great 4th outfielder. Fernando Tatis is one of our most versatile players and brings pop to almost every infield position.

You can have all the depth in the world but if you lose 4-5 all star caliber players for a sustained period, you are screwed regardless. You are a blind fool to suggest that any team would have enough depth to cover the production of 4-5 all stars.

Every team has question marks. Trying to pin the Mets as having the most holes is ignorant and irrational considering every team, including your own, has question marks and holes.

NO ONE HAS SAID OR IS SAYING THAT THE PHILLIES COULD HAVE/ WOULD H AVE OVERCOME THE SAME SPATE OF INJURIES. Find ONE post saying that. Just one. What HAS been said REPETEADLY is that the Mets lacked the sufficient depth to cover even 1-2 major injuries.

Not a single solitary person has suggested the Phillies would have gone to the World Series with Eric Bruntlett, Greg Dobbs, John Mayberry and Paul Bako starting 120+ games.

Why do you not understand this?

Bottom line; you like to talk about how many Phillies players suck and how much, yet we're b2b NL champs. So you can cite any stat you want, wonder boy, the facts are these;

Phillies > Mets.

Here endeth the lesson.

Ender
11-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Haha, you're backing out.

Just like your friend Ender.

You guys are weak and seriously so afraid to engage in debate in which you get smashed it's funny.

You insult, call names, and refuse to engage in intelligent discussion.

Not surprising at all. Not one bit.

And actually no, I wrote that up between the timeout during the Knicks game.

Another win for me. This is too easy :)

I rest my case.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 08:01 PM
Not a single solitary person has suggested the Phillies would have gone to the World Series with Eric Bruntlett, Greg Dobbs, John Mayberry and Paul Bako starting 120+ games.



Exactly. Personally, I think we would have been in big trouble if Utley or Rollins got hurt for the entire season, but they don't seem to be injury prone players, which is the key. Our players who have had a past history of injury (which are few) include Werth and Hamels and that is pretty much it. Werth has had 3 fully healthy seasons in a row now, but in the case that he gets injured, we have Taylor who was ranked in the top 25 MLB prospects at midseason. Hamels would be a tough injury to overcome, but Carpenter or Kendrick can fill the rotation spot. Come playoff time or if he were out for the year, we would be in trouble. Luckily we have a much better farm system than the Mets, which helps our case for making a trade for a starter if needed again.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 08:04 PM
NO ONE HAS SAID OR IS SAYING THAT THE PHILLIES COULD HAVE/ WOULD H AVE OVERCOME THE SAME SPATE OF INJURIES. Find ONE post saying that. Just one. What HAS been said REPETEADLY is that the Mets lacked the sufficient depth to cover even 1-2 major injuries.

Not a single solitary person has suggested the Phillies would have gone to the World Series with Eric Bruntlett, Greg Dobbs, John Mayberry and Paul Bako starting 120+ games.

Why do you not understand this?

Bottom line; you like to talk about how many Phillies players suck and how much, yet we're b2b NL champs. So you can cite any stat you want, wonder boy, the facts are these;

Phillies > Mets.

Here endeth the lesson.
Do you know how to read ?

Once again, putting words in my mouth.

I ASKED HIM WHAT THE PHILLIES WOULD HAVE DONE IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN TO THEM. I know none of you said that. I asked him the question because the constant remarks regarding the Mets lack of depth is stupid.

You have no idea how the Mets would have faired if "only one or two major injuries occured"

We were doing decently when Delgado and Reyes went down. Beltran, Wright, and the pitching was picking up the slack. When Beltran went down, the season was over. That's three major injuries.

Baseless assumptions on your part.

You're the one who backed out of the discussion last night. I kept pounding in the facts and stats, and you responded with " MVP's , LEADERSHIP , WORLD SERIESZZZ" and insults. You offered absolutely no credible proof to anything you said.

I even made you concede your original idea and contradict yourself. Why do you persist in arguing with me? You continue to shame yourself with every post.

Atleast Moose used real facts.

But then he backed out like a whimp just like you. If he doesn't agree with my points, then let him prove it. But no, he uses the classic " You're too dumb to respond to " remark when its his argument that I just abused. What a cop out.

Pathetic.

GimmeAD
11-29-2009, 08:05 PM
Hustla has taught me something about arguing. No matter how badly I'm outmatched just continue to say things like "This is too easy :) " and "Oh I expected you guys to give up."

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 08:07 PM
Hustla has taught me something about arguing. No matter how badly I'm outmatched just continue to say things like "This is too easy :) " and "Oh I expected you guys to give up."
LOL Have you said anything of any value in any of these threads?

Just let the big boys duke it out and stand by the sidelines, eh ?

GimmeAD
11-29-2009, 08:10 PM
Do you know how to read ?

Once again, putting words in my mouth.

I ASKED HIM WHAT THE PHILLIES WOULD HAVE DONE IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN TO THEM. I know none of you said that. I asked him the question because the constant remarks regarding the Mets lack of depth is stupid.

You have no idea how the Mets would have faired if "only one or two major injuries occured"

We were doing decently when Delgado and Reyes went down. Beltran, Wright, and the pitching was picking up the slack. When Beltran went down, the season was over. That's three major injuries.

Baseless assumptions on your part.

You're the one who backed out of the discussion last night. I kept pounding in the facts and stats, and you responded with " MVP's , LEADERSHIP , WORLD SERIESZZZ" and insults. You offered absolutely no credible proof to anything you said.

I even made you concede your original idea and contradict yourself. Why do you persist in arguing with me? You continue to shame yourself with every post.

Atleast Moose used real facts.

But then he backed out like a whimp just like you. If he doesn't agree with my points, then let him prove it. But no, he uses the classic " You're too dumb to respond to " remark when its his argument that I just abused. What a cop out.

Pathetic.

We should all pause for a second and remember that you are arguing the Mets being a better team with the two best free agents on the market, which them being the best is questionable too. The Mets will be lucky to get one of those two. So please, think before you call others pathetic.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 08:11 PM
What did I miss? I didn't check the forum for a few hours and all this excitement occurred.

It's not really excitement per say. Basically this guy from the Mets boards started making silly points and then we responded with fact and he would say "you didn't answer my question!!!!!" and then resorted to name calling at which point we realized he was trollin :cool:.

It pretty much went like this...

Person A: 1 + 1 = 3
Person B: No, it does not.
Person A: YES!!!! You didn't prove me wrong!!!
Person B: Ok. Well see, 1 + 1 = 2
Person A: ... YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!


Trust me. I am all for the Phillies-Mets rivalry, it adds flavor to the sport and is all in good fun. I just don't like when someone wastes my time by acting like they are serious, when it turns out they were trolling all along.


Hustla has taught me something about arguing. No matter how badly I'm outmatched just continue to say things like "This is too easy :) " and "Oh I expected you guys to give up."

Best not to respond to him. When he started blatantly saying those things, it made it clear that his only purpose is to bait.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 08:12 PM
We should all pause for a second and remember that you are arguing the Mets being a better team with the two best free agents on the market, which them being the best is questionable too. The Mets will be lucky to get one of those two. So please, think before you call others pathetic.
That's my opinion.

Like I said, the only people who blew this out of proportion are you anal Philly fans who trolled in the Mets forum.

I'm just defending my opinion.

I'm not allowed to do that on a sports forum?

Atleast I don't back out like Ender and Moose.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 08:13 PM
It's not really excitement per say. Basically this guy from the Mets boards started making silly points and then we responded with fact and he would say "you didn't answer my question!!!!!" and then resorted to name calling at which point we realized he was trollin :cool:.

It pretty much went like this...

Person A: 1 + 1 = 3
Person B: No, it does not.
Person A: YES!!!! You didn't prove me wrong!!!
Person B: Ok. Well see, 1 + 1 = 2
Person A: ... YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!


Trust me. I am all for the Phillies-Mets rivalry, it adds flavor to the sport and is all in good fun. I just don't like when someone wastes my time by acting like they are serious, when it turns out they were trolling all along.



Best not to respond to him. When he started blatantly saying those things, it made it clear that his only purpose is to bait.
So you coming into my forum means that I was trolling ?

Why, yes of course.

More tremendous moose logic.

Also, you are afraid. And a copout. Unless you plan to actually argue, don't bother wasting my time.

Ender
11-29-2009, 08:18 PM
Do you know how to read ?

Once again, putting words in my mouth.

I ASKED HIM WHAT THE PHILLIES WOULD HAVE DONE IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN TO THEM. I know none of you said that. I asked him the question because the constant remarks regarding the Mets lack of depth is stupid.

You have no idea how the Mets would have faired if "only one or two major injuries occured"

We were doing decently when Delgado and Reyes went down. Beltran, Wright, and the pitching was picking up the slack. When Beltran went down, the season was over. That's three major injuries.

Baseless assumptions on your part.

You're the one who backed out of the discussion last night. I kept pounding in the facts and stats, and you responded with " MVP's , LEADERSHIP , WORLD SERIESZZZ" and insults. You offered absolutely no credible proof to anything you said.

I even made you concede your original idea and contradict yourself. Why do you persist in arguing with me? You continue to shame yourself with every post.

Atleast Moose used real facts.

But then he backed out like a whimp just like you. If he doesn't agree with my points, then let him prove it. But no, he uses the classic " You're too dumb to respond to " remark when its his argument that I just abused. What a cop out.

Pathetic.

Who's backing out of what now?

You didn't "make" me back off of any point last night. I readily agreed that the stats may say that Matt Holliday is a "better" player than Ryan Howard, but that I simply preferred Howard. This is apparently too abstract an idea for your outmatched brain to handle, as I have said it over and over yet you continue to act like I haven't. You've been doing this for about 24 hours now.

But I forgot, liking someone more because he's on my team makes me a "blind homer" in your opinion, despite repeatedly admitting to a Howard bias because he is on MY TEAM. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about that.

But please, repeat the tired "blind homer" phrase which seems to be your yoga mantra. Go to your happy place.

If the Phillies had lost their top 5 players and top 2 pithcers it is reasonable to assume they would have had a very poor year. I think this is true of any major league team, but go ahead and call this a "WIN" for you if you must.

But let's talk about baseless assumptions for a minute; you posit it is baseless for me to assume the Mets would not have been able to recover from 2 major injuries. Fair enough. But then why is is baseFULL for you to assume J-Roll has become a bum and Cole Hamels is somehow now permanently unreliable after 1 so-so season?

You can't have it both ways, which is what you've been doing for 2 days now.

Ender > Hustla23.

Ender
11-29-2009, 08:20 PM
That's my opinion.

Like I said, the only people who blew this out of proportion are you anal Philly fans who trolled in the Mets forum.

I'm just defending my opinion.

I'm not allowed to do that on a sports forum?

Atleast I don't back out like Ender and Moose.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 08:23 PM
Back to the point on depth.

Interesting article here (http://www.nysun.com/sports/risks-of-injury-highlight-mets-lack-of-depth/72199/)

^ Written before the 08 season. The team held up well in 08 and was able to compete, but it finally caught up with them in 09. I thought they did a good job of realizing this issue in the 08 draft then they got Ike Davis and Brad Holt (guys who were closer to major league ready). However, the problem was so deeply compounded before then by splurging on expensive talent and not focusing at all on depth. They further regressed in 09 when they spent the very least of any team on the draft.

Another interesting article here (http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/item_jnAE0jHfhLpUcEmXhGW2JO)

A couple small excerpts from this article (written earlier this month):


I asked five executives from outside the NL East to rank the NL East in order by best major league talent, one through five, and then best minor league talent, one through five. The Mets finished no better than third for major league talent and no better than fourth for prospects. So more than 2010 is in play now.



“The present is much better than the future,” an AL GM said. “If their core is healthy, they could be contenders. But their minor league talent is way under the talent base of the Phillies, Braves and Marlins.”


So if the Mets face injuries again in 2010 (I am not talking about the 09 level, simply one or two key injuries) then we could see another 4th place finish for the Mets. I hope they remain healthy, because it was a lot more fun to beat them with them competing, instead of going out with a whimper.

MetsFan28
11-29-2009, 08:49 PM
Josh Thole
Ike Davis
Reese Havens
David Wright
Jose Reyes
Fernando Martinez
Carlos Beltran
Wilmor Flores

Johan Santana
Mike Pelfrey
Jenry Mejia
Brad Holt
Jon Niese

This is when we'll beat the Phillies. In 2013.

Hustla23
11-29-2009, 08:55 PM
Who's backing out of what now?

You didn't "make" me back off of any point last night. I readily agreed that the stats may say that Matt Holliday is a "better" player than Ryan Howard, but that I simply preferred Howard. This is apparently too abstract an idea for your outmatched brain to handle, as I have said it over and over yet you continue to act like I haven't. You've been doing this for about 24 hours now.

But I forgot, liking someone more because he's on my team makes me a "blind homer" in your opinion, despite repeatedly admitting to a Howard bias because he is on MY TEAM. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about that.

But please, repeat the tired "blind homer" phrase which seems to be your yoga mantra. Go to your happy place.

If the Phillies had lost their top 5 players and top 2 pithcers it is reasonable to assume they would have had a very poor year. I think this is true of any major league team, but go ahead and call this a "WIN" for you if you must.

But let's talk about baseless assumptions for a minute; you posit it is baseless for me to assume the Mets would not have been able to recover from 2 major injuries. Fair enough. But then why is is baseFULL for you to assume J-Roll has become a bum and Cole Hamels is somehow now permanently unreliable after 1 so-so season?

You can't have it both ways, which is what you've been doing for 2 days now.

Ender > Hustla23.
You have this strange fascination with constantly putting words in my mouth.

It is actually quite repulsive. I feel bad for whoever else tries to argue with you. They might file for libel.

I never said Cole has become permanently unreliable. For the 10th time, I even stated that he had a good year by saber standards. I stated that he has slightly regressed the past 3 seasons which is true. It is true. His tRA+ has dipped by 10 from two years ago as well as his k/9 rates. This is called getting gradually worse.

I mentioned in my post that J-Roll might or might not be better next season, but that his awful performance this past season made him a question mark. He played like a bum this past season, and he will have to reprove himself.

Yes, I know you prefer Howard. But you never admitted to the fact that Holliday was definitively better, even when I showed you all the facts indicating that this was true. You keep alluding to the idea that he "may" be better when he is, definitively. Hence, the blind homerism and arrogance to not admit what is true.

You bashed me for using "comparison signs" , and then when asked to determine which team was better, you replaced the signs with bolding and ultimately approved collective determination of talents as an acceptable method for discerning which of the two clubs was better. This took you several unnecessary posts to admit, but you did eventually.

I based my ideas of Hamels' and Rollins' "questionable-ness" on their performance. What are you basing it on ? Nothing.

And your constant refusal to use any sort of tangible evidence to support anything is what makes you the inferior poster, with the ultimately inferior argument.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 08:57 PM
Josh Thole
Ike Davis
Reese Havens
David Wright
Jose Reyes
Fernando Martinez
Carlos Beltran
Wilmor Flores

Johan Santana
Mike Pelfrey
Jenry Mejia
Brad Holt
Jon Niese

This is when we'll beat the Phillies. In 2013.

Everything seems to point to now being the time to win for the Mets. They need to turn it around in a hurry or start to rebuild. The 09 draft was a bad omen for things to come.


I figured, we should look at the Phillies depth as well.

Position Players: Click HERE (http://phuturephillies.com/2009/11/22/prospect-tiers-hitters/)

Pitchers : Click HERE (http://phuturephillies.com/2009/11/27/prospect-tiers-pitchers/)


Pretty much sums up what I said in an earlier post. We have good depth in the outfield and pitching, but our infield is extremely thin. We could do well with getting some college bats to fill these holes at some point in next years draft.

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
11-29-2009, 09:14 PM
Back to the point on depth.

Interesting article here (http://www.nysun.com/sports/risks-of-injury-highlight-mets-lack-of-depth/72199/)

^ Written before the 08 season. The team held up well in 08 and was able to compete, but it finally caught up with them in 09. I thought they did a good job of realizing this issue in the 08 draft then they got Ike Davis and Brad Holt (guys who were closer to major league ready). However, the problem was so deeply compounded before then by splurging on expensive talent and not focusing at all on depth. They further regressed in 09 when they spent the very least of any team on the draft.

Another interesting article here (http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/item_jnAE0jHfhLpUcEmXhGW2JO)

A couple small excerpts from this article (written earlier this month):





So if the Mets face injuries again in 2010 (I am not talking about the 09 level, simply one or two key injuries) then we could see another 4th place finish for the Mets. I hope they remain healthy, because it was a lot more fun to beat them with them competing, instead of going out with a whimper.

I think the depth argument is complete BS. Could you point out one team in the MLB in the last 10 years that could win with the amount of injuries we went through last season? We stayed somewhat in the race until about a week before the all star break with a crap team, that alone shows how GOOD our depth is IMO. I'm not saying we are better than the Phillies(because we aren't) and possibly not the Braves(depends on the offseason), I'm just saying it isn't fair to judge any team after a season like the 2009 New York Mets.


...and I don't see why so many people continue to bash our farm system, when it isn't that bad. Fernando Martinez, Jenrry Meijia, and Ike Davis will all be in the top 45 prospects. Jon Niese and Wilmer Flores in the top 75. Brad Holt and/or Kyle Allen will crack the top 100, and Kirk Nieuwenhuis will be top 120. Not as bad as everyone says IMO.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 09:19 PM
I think the depth argument is complete BS. Could you point out one team in the MLB in the last 10 years that could win with the amount of injuries we went through last season? We stayed somewhat in the race until about a week before the all star break with a crap team, that alone shows how GOOD our depth is IMO. I'm not saying we are better than the Phillies(because we aren't) and possibly not the Braves(depends on the offseason), I'm just saying it isn't fair to judge any team after a season like the 2009 New York Mets.


...and I don't see why so many people continue to bash our farm system, when it isn't that bad. Fernando Martinez, Jenrry Meijia, and Ike Davis will all be in the top 45 prospects. Jon Niese and Wilmer Flores in the top 75. Brad Holt and/or Kyle Allen will crack the top 100, and Kirk Nieuwenhuis will be top 120. Not as bad as everyone says IMO.

The pages before this stated by me and Ender and others that no team could have overcome the 09 injuries. However, we have good reason to believe that simply a single injury or two could knock you guys out of contention. I don't want to get into it again, but the arguments are on the pages previous. I highly doubt Davis will be in the top 45 prospects. You will probably have 3 or 4 in the top 100. We will see when BA's prospect handbook comes out. However, their pitiful 09 draft doesn't seem to reflect well upon a minor league system that ranked 17th last year.

oak2455
11-29-2009, 09:26 PM
Jesus... never mind... you're too dumb to debate with...
Johnnyleeee get a clue just because u have a half million post doesnt make you that smart :)

Ender
11-29-2009, 09:28 PM
You have this strange fascination with constantly putting words in my mouth.

It is actually quite repulsive. I feel bad for whoever else tries to argue with you. They might file for libel.

I never said Cole has become permanently unreliable. For the 10th time, I even stated that he had a good year by saber standards. I stated that he has slightly regressed the past 3 seasons which is true. It is true. His tRA+ has dipped by 10 from two years ago as well as his k/9 rates. This is called getting gradually worse.

I mentioned in my post that J-Roll might or might not be better next season, but that his awful performance this past season made him a question mark. He played like a bum this past season, and he will have to reprove himself.

Yes, I know you prefer Howard. But you never admitted to the fact that Holliday was definitively better, even when I showed you all the facts indicating that this was true. You keep alluding to the idea that he "may" be better when he is, definitively. Hence, the blind homerism and arrogance to not admit what is true.

You bashed me for using "comparison signs" , and then when asked to determine which team was better, you replaced the signs with bolding and ultimately approved collective determination of talents as an acceptable method for discerning which of the two clubs was better. This took you several unnecessary posts to admit, but you did eventually.

I based my ideas of Hamels' and Rollins' "questionable-ness" on their performance. What are you basing it on ? Nothing.

And your constant refusal to use any sort of tangible evidence to support anything is what makes you the inferior poster, with the ultimately inferior argument.

Ok.

Jimmy Shine
11-29-2009, 09:36 PM
After this, be hilarious if the Braves took the division.

oak2455
11-29-2009, 09:38 PM
Im trying to figure out what Omar and Manuel have done so far please let me know, fill me in:confused:

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 09:40 PM
After this, be hilarious if the Braves took the division.

They are a formiddable opponent and wouldn't be surprised to see them take the crown. A rotation of Vazquez, Jurrjens, Hudson, Hanson, Lowe is quite scary. I would rank them an easy second in the East as of now.

oak2455
11-29-2009, 09:42 PM
They are a formiddable opponent and wouldn't be surprised to see them take the crown. A rotation of Vazquez, Jurrjens, Hudson, Hanson, Lowe is quite scary. I would rank them an easy second in the East as of now.

Me too than the Marlins, and then Omars and Freddy's Mets:)

oak2455
11-29-2009, 09:44 PM
They are a formiddable opponent and wouldn't be surprised to see them take the crown. A rotation of Vazquez, Jurrjens, Hudson, Hanson, Lowe is quite scary. I would rank them an easy second in the East as of now.

Yanks vs Phils 2010 World Series...... just like when the Yankees vs Dodgers in the 70's...and 81:)

Jimmy Shine
11-29-2009, 09:44 PM
They are a formiddable opponent and wouldn't be surprised to see them take the crown. A rotation of Vazquez, Jurrjens, Hudson, Hanson, Lowe is quite scary. I would rank them an easy second in the East as of now.

And an "easy second" means a few key breaks hands the title to the boys from Atlanta.

I hate the Braves, but after this thread Im almost rooting for them. :):)

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 09:46 PM
If they end up filling a hole at 1B or OF, I wouldn't have a problem with people naming them the favorites for the east. If they get Nick Johnson at 1B, mark me down as worried.

Ender
11-29-2009, 09:46 PM
Yeah, I almost hate the Phillies at this point.

oak2455
11-29-2009, 09:50 PM
If they end up filling a hole at 1B or OF, I wouldn't have a problem with people naming them the favorites for the east. If they get Nick Johnson at 1B, mark me down as worried.

Nick Johnson wouldve been great a couple of years ago, hes on the DL too often......hey he would be great for the Mets:rolleyes:

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 09:54 PM
When healthy, which he was last year, he is a .400 OBP cog who sees a lot of pitches. If we didn't have Howard, I would LOVE him in the 2-hole getting on base like a machine. It's pretty amazing how Johnson went from an overhyped Yankee prospect to vastly underrated

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
11-29-2009, 10:30 PM
The pages before this stated by me and Ender and others that no team could have overcome the 09 injuries. However, we have good reason to believe that simply a single injury or two could knock you guys out of contention. I don't want to get into it again, but the arguments are on the pages previous. I highly doubt Davis will be in the top 45 prospects. You will probably have 3 or 4 in the top 100. We will see when BA's prospect handbook comes out. However, their pitiful 09 draft doesn't seem to reflect well upon a minor league system that ranked 17th last year.

Sorry, I just went off the last few posts but a lot of fans still believe a team other than the mets could have competed.

I agree with you that if the metshad two major players injured they would not have made the playoffs. But, if the Mets and Braves both remained relatively healthy, and the Phillies sustained injuries to Howard and Hamels for basically the entire season, do you believe they would have made the playoffs? I don't.

MiLB posted their top 100 and their rankings were similar to mine(except they failed to list niese as a prospect). I was basing my rankings off of that....
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/10/26/1099439/shs-2010-top-100-prospects-in-milb

I really feel our system is underrated. All that young talent we have had in our low minors is beginning to emerge.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 10:35 PM
Sorry, I just went off the last few posts but a lot of fans still believe a team other than the mets could have competed.
I agree with you that if the metshad two major players injured they would not have made the playoffs.

MiLB posted their top 100 and their rankings were similar to mine(except they failed to list niese as a prospect). I was basing my rankings off of that(link is in mets forum, I would get it but I'm on my phone.

No problem. MiLB's rankings I tend to disagree with more often. I feel like BA usually gets it right more often. For instance, they ranked Carlos Carrasco for the Phillies in the top 50 this past year, when pretty much every Philly fan had him on the outs in that respect.

At midseason, BA had Holt and Mejia in the top 50.

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
11-29-2009, 10:36 PM
No problem. MiLB's rankings I tend to disagree with more often. I feel like BA usually gets it right more often. For instance, they ranked Carlos Carrasco for the Phillies in the top 50 this past year, when pretty much every Philly fan had him on the outs in that respect.

At midseason, BA had Holt and Mejia in the top 50.

Holt will probably slip down to 75-80. Meijia will and should be in the top 35 along with Fernando Martinez.

MooseWithFleas
11-29-2009, 10:45 PM
I think most ranking systems will have F-Mart slip due to his poor showing at the major league level, even though that isn't very justified as it was a small sample size.

I don't think the Mets have one of the worst systems in the league, but I believe it is in the bottom half of the league. This is only based off what I read and the stats of the players in each system. You probably go to a few games a year and follow more on a day to day basis, and have a better idea than me, so I completely hear where you are coming from when you say your system is underrated. We will see how it turns out :)

oak2455
11-29-2009, 11:32 PM
When healthy, which he was last year, he is a .400 OBP cog who sees a lot of pitches. If we didn't have Howard, I would LOVE him in the 2-hole getting on base like a machine. It's pretty amazing how Johnson went from an overhyped Yankee prospect to vastly underrated

never said hes underated just hurt alot:eyebrow:

Havoc Wreaker
11-29-2009, 11:52 PM
comparison forum for crap like this please use it
Am I gonna have to BUMP the "ARE THE MARLINS FOR REAL?" thread again? :laugh2:

johnnylee722
11-30-2009, 12:32 PM
why did you copy and paste the entire website?

oak2455
11-30-2009, 12:34 PM
why did you copy and paste the entire website?
Blackberry not on my laptop........

MetsFan28
11-30-2009, 05:01 PM
Im trying to figure out what Omar and Manuel have done so far please let me know, fill me in:confused:

You want to know what Omar did?
-signed Pedro Martinez, the best pitcher in baseball at the time
-signed Carlos Beltran, after an amazing year in both the season and the playoffs
-traded for Carlos Delgado, one of the top home runs hitters in baseball
-signed Billy Wagner, a top closer at the time
-traded 4 overrated prospects for Johan Santana, the best pitcher in baseball
-signed Fransisco Rodriguez, after breaking the record for most saves in a season

Plus that isn't even including the little things he did, like Paul Lo Duca, Xavier Nady, Jeff Francouer, Duaner Sanchez, John Maine, Oliver Perez, and Orlando Hernandez. Omar turned a horrible team into a pretty decent one in his first year year. Then he turned them into the best team in the entire league during the season. In 2007, we missed the playoffs by a game. What does Omar do, get us Johan Santana. In 2008, because of a horrible bullpen, we miss the playoffs by a game again. Then Omar gets us Fransisco Rodriguez, JJ Putz, and Sean Green.

It isn't Omar's fault we haven't won a WS or even made the WS since he came here. He provided us with the best team on PAPER from 06-09. Whether the starting pitching fell apart, bullpen sucked, hitters forget how to hit, or just injuries, it isn't Omar's fault. Omar is the GM. All he can do is provide is with the best possible team he can, and he has done that.

uwish1127
11-30-2009, 05:09 PM
IF* Mets get two strong starters, Reyes returns to form, they sign Holiday and another power hitter, it really could be but.

The Phillies are the better team, and have room for some good players on the market

Ender
11-30-2009, 08:57 PM
Cora & Coste not quite Holliday & Lackey.

Jimmy Shine
11-30-2009, 09:04 PM
Cora & Coste not quite Holliday & Lackey.

Omar's just toying with us, lulling us into a false sense of contempt.

Ender
11-30-2009, 09:08 PM
Omar's just toying with us, lulling us into a false sense of contempt.

Great line.

$2M for Cora? Did they raise the sales tax to 34% in NY today?

oak2455
11-30-2009, 09:11 PM
You want to know what Omar did?
-signed Pedro Martinez, the best pitcher in baseball at the time
-signed Carlos Beltran, after an amazing year in both the season and the playoffs
-traded for Carlos Delgado, one of the top home runs hitters in baseball
-signed Billy Wagner, a top closer at the time
-traded 4 overrated prospects for Johan Santana, the best pitcher in baseball
-signed Fransisco Rodriguez, after breaking the record for most saves in a season

Plus that isn't even including the little things he did, like Paul Lo Duca, Xavier Nady, Jeff Francouer, Duaner Sanchez, John Maine, Oliver Perez, and Orlando Hernandez. Omar turned a horrible team into a pretty decent one in his first year year. Then he turned them into the best team in the entire league during the season. In 2007, we missed the playoffs by a game. What does Omar do, get us Johan Santana. In 2008, because of a horrible bullpen, we miss the playoffs by a game again. Then Omar gets us Fransisco Rodriguez, JJ Putz, and Sean Green.

It isn't Omar's fault we haven't won a WS or even made the WS since he came here. He provided us with the best team on PAPER from 06-09. Whether the starting pitching fell apart, bullpen sucked, hitters forget how to hit, or just injuries, it isn't Omar's fault. Omar is the GM. All he can do is provide is with the best possible team he can, and he has done that.

And thats gotten you?? and he hires and fires his Managers.....BTW The only reason he got Johan is because the Yanks and Sox dropped out and he had nowhere to go but that pathetic deal the Mets gave him.......also you know the Carlos Beltran deal right? he went and tried to sign with the Yanks for much less:D