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View Full Version : Sources: Boston Red Sox making push to trade for Roy Halladay



swagga81
11-25-2009, 03:19 AM
Thanksgiving isn't until Thursday, but the Halladay season is officially underway.

The Red Sox are "putting on a full-court press" to acquire Roy Halladay, according to a source, and are hoping to add the former Cy Young winner to the top of their rotation to go with Josh Beckett and Jon Lester.

"They would love to get it wrapped up before the winter meetings (beginning Dec. 7)," the source said of the Red Sox, who made a big push to deal for Halladay last summer.

If the Red Sox are serious about dealing for Halladay in the next two weeks, the Yankees will likely have their chance to get involved in the sweepstakes for the Blue Jays ace, although it will take a package of top prospects - as well as a sizeable contract extension for Halladay, who has a full no-trade clause - to get a deal done.

According to sources, the Yankees will get together in Tampa next week for another round of organizational meetings, during which Brian Cashman will be given his budget for the 2010 season.

Cashman indicated on Monday night that he wouldn't be in position to begin presenting offers to any free agents until the payroll situation is resolved, but he will surely continue to monitor the Halladay situation, which could be moving faster than many expected.

Although Cashman hasn't held any serious talks with agents yet, the general manager confirmed yesterday that he has spoken with many teams around the league - including the Blue Jays - about potential trades.

Without a firm budget to work with, Cashman can make smaller deals, such as the one he made for Nick Swisher last November, but until he knows how much money he has to spend, trading for Halladay or a player of that magnitude is not going to happen.

To land Halladay, Boston would likely have to give up Clay Buchholz, the organization's top young pitcher, as well as Casey Kelly, the pitcher/shortstop who signed with the Red Sox in 2008 after being recruited by Tennessee to play quarterback. Red Sox GM Theo Epstein is said to be smitten with Kelly, which could be a sticking point in talks with Toronto if Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos insists on the 20-year-old being included in a deal.

The Yankees would love to acquire Halladay, although Cashman has been reluctant to deal away top prospects such as Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero for a player he would then have to sign for more than $100 million, such as Halladay. Toronto would also likely require either Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain in a deal.

Other teams figure to be involved in the Halladay mix, including the Angels, who reportedly have stepped up their efforts this week as they prepare for the possibility that John Lackey will sign elsewhere.

Cashman will begin speaking to agents - starting with the representatives for Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui and Andy Pettitte - once the meetings with ownership are complete. Damon and Matsui have expressed their desire to return to the Bronx, but Pettitte is still contemplating whether he will pitch at all in 2010 or retire. If Pettitte returns, he would move back into the No. 3 slot in the rotation behind CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett, making it less urgent for Cashman to acquire a big-name starting pitcher.

Monday night, Joe Girardi didn't sound like a man convinced that the options at the bottom of the rotation - most notably Hughes and Chamberlain - can be counted on to fill those slots next season, so even if Pettitte comes back, the Yanks likely will still try to add another arm to the rotation.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/11/24/2009-11-24_roy_halladay_yankees_sox.html#ixzz0XqyA24Pv

FachoinaNYY
11-25-2009, 03:28 AM
dont see it happening.

DaaBoTownSox
11-25-2009, 03:31 AM
I wouldn't want to give up Clay & Kelly for Halladay. I would give them up for Felix Hernandez though.

swagga81
11-25-2009, 03:31 AM
dont see it happening.

i see it happing!!! who ever has the best package of prospects gets halladay and as of right now Boston has an edge on NY! but LA Angels scares me tho they got good prospects

swagga81
11-25-2009, 03:32 AM
I wouldn't want to give up Clay & Kelly for Halladay. I would give them up for Felix Hernandez though.

your crazy man! the Seattle GM wont trade him

DaaBoTownSox
11-25-2009, 03:34 AM
your crazy man! the Seattle GM wont trade him

Probably not, but I wouldn't give up 2 promising young pitchers for an aging pitcher (albeit a good one).

swagga81
11-25-2009, 03:39 AM
Probably not, but I wouldn't give up 2 promising young pitchers for an aging pitcher (albeit a good one).

oh come on he maby 32 soon to be 33 but hes a shut down pitcher and hes the righty vrison of CC! plus i remember sox gave up to good pitching prospects for a old pitcher named Curt Schilling yeah what happen there

SB75
11-25-2009, 03:41 AM
I think it would be wise of them to make a push for Halladay. They need pitching now. Getting him and resigning Bay would make for a good off-season. It would take them out of the Cabrera/ A-Gon sweep-stakes though.

swagga81
11-25-2009, 03:46 AM
I think it would be wise of them to make a push for Halladay. They need pitching now. Getting him and resigning Bay would make for a good off-season. It would take them out of the Cabrera/ A-Gon sweep-stakes though.oh yeah if they make the trade there deff out off the Mix for miggy and agon. but they sign a guy like holliday or resign bay and sign Laroche or beltre and were fine

natepro
11-25-2009, 03:46 AM
:sigh:

BaustinSali08
11-25-2009, 03:55 AM
Because pitching was our problem last year, and not runs....:rolleyes:

Red222
11-25-2009, 04:00 AM
Because pitching was our problem last year, and not runs....:rolleyes:

makes no sense :eyebrow:

Dark Donnie
11-25-2009, 09:06 AM
Don't see it happening

bagwell368
11-25-2009, 09:18 AM
I wouldn't want to give up Clay & Kelly for Halladay. I would give them up for Felix Hernandez though.

A party hearty stick of a pitcher who'll be done by age 31 and a phenom pitcher (he's not so hot at SS) in A ball is too much for the best pitcher of the last decade?

I cannot agree in any way. Do the deal.

Doc is 18-6 lifetime against the Skanks..... for a generally average Toronto team.

Last years Sox scored more runs then '07. Last years pitching did worse relative to expectations as a group then the hitters.

Also we can't make enough moves to match the Yanks hitting, but we can make enough moves to have this rotation:

Doc
Lester
Beckett
Dice-K
Harden or Sheets, etc./Wakefield

Be afraid, be very afraid of that rotation. Four guys easily capable of 130+ or better ERA's next year. You could bat Pedroia clean-up and win most of your games with that.

todu82
11-25-2009, 09:30 AM
Halladay would be a good add to Boston but Boston's biggest need is a power bat. Boston should concentrate on getting a bat like Adrian Gonzalez or Miguel Cabrera instead of another pitcher.

Bosoxgoober15
11-25-2009, 09:39 AM
casey kelly is untouchable imo

Havoc Wreaker
11-25-2009, 09:42 AM
:sigh:
/thread

CQSox305
11-25-2009, 10:30 AM
I think Angels get him, they will present a better offer.

Webslinger
11-25-2009, 10:33 AM
Bucholtz and Kelly for Halladay? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I were Boston I'd make this deal in a nano second.

Havoc Wreaker
11-25-2009, 10:47 AM
Bucholtz and Kelly for Halladay? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I were Boston I'd make this deal in a nano second.
If you were Boston, you'd know how to ****ing spell Buchholz

Pavelb1
11-25-2009, 10:52 AM
Halladay 5 yrs/105 mill
Holliday 5 yrs/115 mill

Great. I can hear 'the Boston Yankees' jeers now. WHAM WHAM! Here's your top two paid Red Sox!

On the upside though there will be less Holliday/Halladay confusion, cause they'll both be on the same team.

ManRam
11-25-2009, 10:53 AM
I still don't want to give up Clay. I also would rather have a bat (I'd rather have both).

But we need to make some sort of big move, and this would definitely qualify.

NCBoSoxfan21
11-25-2009, 10:58 AM
Clay won't last. And will almost certainly never be as good as Doc.

AK-50
11-25-2009, 10:59 AM
screw the red sox id rather him go to the angels if we are trading him or somewhere in the NL

donnie23
11-25-2009, 11:03 AM
A party hearty stick of a pitcher who'll be done by age 31 and a phenom pitcher (he's not so hot at SS) in A ball is too much for the best pitcher of the last decade?

I cannot agree in any way. Do the deal.

Doc is 18-6 lifetime against the Skanks..... for a generally average Toronto team.

Last years Sox scored more runs then '07. Last years pitching did worse relative to expectations as a group then the hitters.

Also we can't make enough moves to match the Yanks hitting, but we can make enough moves to have this rotation:

Doc
Lester
Beckett
Dice-K
Harden or Sheets, etc./Wakefield

Be afraid, be very afraid of that rotation. Four guys easily capable of 130+ or better ERA's next year. You could bat Pedroia clean-up and win most of your games with that.


That about sums up everything I was going to say! Do they double dip and get Halladay and Holliday? That would be a happy Halladay/Holliday Season for Boston Fans!

tc2deuce
11-25-2009, 11:08 AM
I really like Doc but IMO we need youth so i would push harder for Felix.

bosox3431
11-25-2009, 11:38 AM
I think it would be wise of them to make a push for Halladay. They need pitching now. Getting him and resigning Bay would make for a good off-season. It would take them out of the Cabrera/ A-Gon sweep-stakes though.

Im still confused why you think the Sox are in dire need of pitching? I asked you in another thread, and you failed to answer


Halladay would be a good add to Boston but Boston's biggest need is a power bat. Boston should concentrate on getting a bat like Adrian Gonzalez or Miguel Cabrera instead of another pitcher.

Or sign Holliday and trade for Halladay


I really like Doc but IMO we need youth so i would push harder for Felix.

Felix is a pipe dream. Your talking Buchholz, Kelly, Reddick, Bard etc just to get that deal done.

Rylinkus
11-25-2009, 11:41 AM
If you were Boston, you'd know how to ****ing spell Buchholz

Which is half as egregious as all the bastardizations of Halladay on this site.

SOX0407
11-25-2009, 11:43 AM
I think Clay has a better upside for longern than what Halladay has left in him. Trading for a 200+ ip at the age of 32 is not what we need. let him go compete in the NL.
I'll pack up Clay and others for Miggy though.
I like Halladay better than Lackey, but proven youngsters dont come as easy as money.

gotcabrera10
11-25-2009, 11:44 AM
The Sox getting Doc? What did Joe say in Family Guy, oh yeh, BRING IT ONNNNNNN

miller74
11-25-2009, 11:49 AM
Is Kelly going to be SS or P?

Bosoxgoober15
11-25-2009, 11:52 AM
Is Kelly going to be SS or P?

more than likely he will be a pitcher

TragicallyHip
11-25-2009, 11:54 AM
I think Clay has a better upside for longern than what Halladay has left in him. Trading for a 200+ ip at the age of 32 is not what we need. let him go compete in the NL.
I'll pack up Clay and others for Miggy though.
I like Halladay better than Lackey, but proven youngsters dont come as easy as money.

I dunno, I think Halladay will be money for at least 5 more years.

MaHaRaJaH
11-25-2009, 12:02 PM
I dunno, I think Halladay will be money for at least 5 more years.

Most definitely, I know he's been topping the league in pitches per inning.

miller74
11-25-2009, 12:15 PM
And Boston shouldnt be as concerned with trading away young talent, they have money to get other great players. They didnt exactly win their last 2 World Series by building up their farm team anyway. And thats not a shot at the Red Sox so dont make it a issue, i know they had a few more picks in the lineup in 07 but adding key free agents isnt a problem for them.

oak2455
11-25-2009, 12:26 PM
The Sox getting Doc? What did Joe say in Family Guy, oh yeh, BRING IT ONNNNNNN

I really think The Yankees are gonna get em, remember the whole Tex thing:cool:

Halladay
11-25-2009, 12:26 PM
Amazing to me how much we over-value prospects on this site. Nobody is willing to give up a kid or two who's done nothing for the best pitcher in baseball this decade. Ridiculous.

oak2455
11-25-2009, 12:28 PM
Amazing to me how much we over-value prospects on this site. Nobody is willing to give up a kid or two who's done nothing for the best pitcher in baseball this decade. Ridiculous.
couldnt agree more!!!!!!!!

Tone091
11-25-2009, 12:36 PM
couldnt agree more!!!!!!!!


+2

jetsRsnitchaz
11-25-2009, 12:54 PM
couldnt agree more!!!!!!!!


+3

scully8743
11-25-2009, 12:54 PM
Wang

MattColby
11-25-2009, 12:54 PM
Amazing to me how much we over-value prospects on this site. Nobody is willing to give up a kid or two who's done nothing for the best pitcher in baseball this decade. Ridiculous.

:clap::clap::clap:

steved538
11-25-2009, 12:55 PM
I agree about overvaluing prospects. The odds of them becoming great big leaguers are so slim. A lot of people don't want to trade Casey Kelly and Bucchholz but lets be realistic...its highly unlikely they both become big league studs.

Also, alot of people keep saying we need a big bat and a pitcher so we should sign Holliday and get Halladay. The problem with that is we need another big bat ON TOP OF BAY/HOLLIDAY. Getting Halladay would be great, and there's no pitcher I'd rather have, but it guaranteed we won't be getting another big bat in a trade (Adrian/Miggy). I'd rather sign Bay/Holliday and Lackey and trade for Adrian or Miggy. Signing Holliday and trading for Halladay doesn't resolve last year's issue of needing a big bat, because you aren't getting a bat that's much bigger than Bay anyways if you do that.

quade36
11-25-2009, 01:02 PM
does this discussion really matter? The Red Sox will make the playoffs with or without him and playoffs are generally a crapshoot for whichever team is hot.

steved538
11-25-2009, 01:09 PM
does this discussion really matter? The Red Sox will make the playoffs with or without him and playoffs are generally a crapshoot for whichever team is hot.

I don't know why you think it's that easy, but it's not. The Red Sox have a TON of question marks heading into this season. The same one's they had last season, only a year older. Can Lowell be an every day third baseman or even play 100 games and be productive? Who's the shortstop? Is the shoulder surgery Drew just had, who is the most injury prone player on the team to begin with, really not a big deal? What if Bay walks with the Sox assuming they can land Holliday, and someone comes in and outbids them for him at the last second (Yankees). Looks like Adrian Gonzalez is going nowhere. Cabrera is a fat drunk anyways.

Given all that, how can you possibly already write them in for a playoff spot.

bosox3431
11-25-2009, 01:20 PM
I agree about overvaluing prospects. The odds of them becoming great big leaguers are so slim. A lot of people don't want to trade Casey Kelly and Bucchholz but lets be realistic...its highly unlikely they both become big league studs.

Also, alot of people keep saying we need a big bat and a pitcher so we should sign Holliday and get Halladay. The problem with that is we need another big bat ON TOP OF BAY/HOLLIDAY. Getting Halladay would be great, and there's no pitcher I'd rather have, but it guaranteed we won't be getting another big bat in a trade (Adrian/Miggy). I'd rather sign Bay/Holliday and Lackey and trade for Adrian or Miggy. Signing Holliday and trading for Halladay doesn't resolve last year's issue of needing a big bat, because you aren't getting a bat that's much bigger than Bay anyways if you do that.

If we get a guy like Halladay, and sign Bay/Holliday, especially Holliday, another bat really isnt necassary IMO. The lineup will still score 850+ runs, and with a rotation of Halladay, Lester, Beckett, Dice-K, and Wake, that will be plenty to get the WC.


does this discussion really matter? The Red Sox will make the playoffs with or without him and playoffs are generally a crapshoot for whichever team is hot.

I wouldnt go that far. The teams needs some type of help

TuborgP
11-25-2009, 01:23 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4688224&name=olney_buster
One executive tells Olney that the Blue Jays' chances of moving Roy Halladay are no better than 50/50. Another source suggests that the Jays could have had three top prospects for Halladay last summer, whereas now they could probably only land one star prospect and a second with some major-league potential.

Is this from Buster Olney a needed reality check for Jay fans?

Imperial
11-25-2009, 01:29 PM
One executive tells Olney that the Blue Jays' chances of moving Roy Halladay are no better than 50/50. Another source suggests that the Jays could have had three top prospects for Halladay last summer, whereas now they could probably only land one star prospect and a second with some major-league potential.

Is this from Buster Olney a needed reality check for Jay fans?


I said it last year and I'll say it again. Ricciardi handled the discussions like an idiot. The package the Red Sox offered him was the best one the Jays are going to get and teams will only be willing to offer less now.

swagga81
11-25-2009, 01:40 PM
Amazing to me how much we over-value prospects on this site. Nobody is willing to give up a kid or two who's done nothing for the best pitcher in baseball this decade. Ridiculous.


couldnt agree more!!!!!!!!


+2


+3


:clap::clap::clap:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Halladay
11-25-2009, 01:50 PM
One executive tells Olney that the Blue Jays' chances of moving Roy Halladay are no better than 50/50. Another source suggests that the Jays could have had three top prospects for Halladay last summer, whereas now they could probably only land one star prospect and a second with some major-league potential.

Is this from Buster Olney a needed reality check for Jay fans?



Well that's great because we weren't trying to trade Halladay last summer. How does the media miss that crap? Oh yeah, that's because they don't know **** about the Blue Jays. The only time they pay attention to us is in situations like this then all of a sudden the "experts" give their two cents. Doc is worth more then one good prospect, I don't even know how that's debateable especially if he signs an extension. Your getting another 3 or 4 years of Cy Young calibre pitching. Again, amazing how much prospects are over-valued now a days. There's prospects in the Jays system I wouldn't want to give up but for the right player, of course I would. We talk about these kids as if they've already accomplished something at the major league level.

Halladay
11-25-2009, 01:51 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Great post. Couldn't have said it better myself. :rolleyes:

Twitchy
11-25-2009, 01:52 PM
I said it last year and I'll say it again. Ricciardi handled the discussions like an idiot. The package the Red Sox offered him was the best one the Jays are going to get and teams will only be willing to offer less now.

Theo denied offering that package.

waveycrockett
11-25-2009, 01:58 PM
Well that's great because we weren't trying to trade Halladay last summer. How does the media miss that crap? Oh yeah, that's because they don't know **** about the Blue Jays. The only time they pay attention to us is in situations like this then all of a sudden the "experts" give their two cents. Doc is worth more then one good prospect, I don't even know how that's debateable especially if he signs an extension. Your getting another 3 or 4 years of Cy Young calibre pitching. Again, amazing how much prospects are over-valued now a days. There's prospects in the Jays system I wouldn't want to give up but for the right player, of course I would. We talk about these kids as if they've already accomplished something at the major league level.

Does that come with some sort of guarantee or your money and prospects back?

Seriously though none of the typical major players ie. Yanks and Sox, are desperate for a front-line ace. They have other holes to fill while still being good enough as is to all but gurantee a playoff spot and trading guys like Monetero/Jackson and Bard/Kelly would be absolutely unnecessary because both teams could shore up their major holes via freeagency or just wait a season for Halladay to hit the open market and not have to give up anything worthwhile. Its obvious and rightfully so why fans don't want to part with much for him.

YankeeFan28
11-25-2009, 02:00 PM
Great post. Couldn't have said it better myself. :rolleyes:

I think it's evident by teams unwilling to sign type B free agents more and more each off season. GM's are unwilling to give up a sandwich pick for a proven reliever for a chance to draft a player who won't help them any time soon.

Couple that with the fact that, teams for the most part are holding onto prospects more and more due to the cost efficiency and potential they hold. GM's are balancing TODAY and TOMORROW more then ever.

Yes, people might overrate prospects, but for good reason.

So forgive us if we don't want to rescue your team and give in to your demands for a player you're going to lose anyway.

waveycrockett
11-25-2009, 02:03 PM
Yes, people might overrate prospects, but for good reason.

So forgive us if we don't want to rescue your team and give in to your demands for a player you're going to lose anyway.


BINGO:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Twitchy
11-25-2009, 02:24 PM
I think it's evident by teams unwilling to sign type B free agents more and more each off season. GM's are unwilling to give up a sandwich pick for a proven reliever for a chance to draft a player who won't help them any time soon.

Think you mean A types, cause teams don't care about signing B type players.

jojoe1188
11-25-2009, 02:47 PM
oh come on he maby 32 soon to be 33 but hes a shut down pitcher and hes the righty vrison of CC! plus i remember sox gave up to good pitching prospects for a old pitcher named Curt Schilling yeah what happen there

hindsight aside, casey fossum and brandon lyon were not nearly the asking price of bucholz and kelly........bucholz has already proven he has the potential to be great in the majors and everybody has nothing but emphatic praise for kelly.

Bo Sox Fan
11-25-2009, 02:51 PM
Roy Halladay
Josh Beckett
Jon Lester
Daiske Matsuzaka
Tim Wakefield

Best rotation in baseball, make it happen Thanksgiving Theo!

Tragedy
11-25-2009, 02:59 PM
Bucholtz and Kelly for Halladay? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I were Boston I'd make this deal in a nano second.
Well, that's the point. I highly doubt that the Sox would only have to give up those two players - Sounds like a starting point for a negotiation.


oh come on he maby 32 soon to be 33 but hes a shut down pitcher and hes the righty vrison of CC! plus i remember sox gave up to good pitching prospects for a old pitcher named Curt Schilling yeah what happen there

November 28, 2003: Traded by the Arizona Diamondbacks to the Boston Red Sox for Michael Goss (minors), Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon and Jorge de la Rosa.
Baseball-reference.com

That was a steal of a deal..And we were also able to lock Curt up. Halladay is a FA in the not so distant future, so the possibility of him being a one year deal is possible.

Bo Sox Fan
11-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Well, that's the point. I highly doubt that the Sox would only have to give up those two players - Sounds like a starting point for a negotiation.


That was a steal of a day..And we were also able to lock Curt up. Halladay is a FA in the not so distant future, so the possibility of him being a one year deal is possible.

Bucholz, Kelly and a couple buggs in the minor leagues that will never see the majors... that would be a steal! Then sign Holliday or resign Bay and we're set, after all we had the 3rd highest offence in the AL last year, I don't know where people get off saying we need a big bat although Adrian Gonzalez or Miguel Cabrera would look great at 1st base, not going to get my hopes up though.

miller74
11-25-2009, 03:11 PM
I think it's evident by teams unwilling to sign type B free agents more and more each off season. GM's are unwilling to give up a sandwich pick for a proven reliever for a chance to draft a player who won't help them any time soon.

Couple that with the fact that, teams for the most part are holding onto prospects more and more due to the cost efficiency and potential they hold. GM's are balancing TODAY and TOMORROW more then ever.

Yes, people might overrate prospects, but for good reason.

So forgive us if we don't want to rescue your team and give in to your demands for a player you're going to lose anyway.

Thats fine you dont have to give your best prospects but Boston might. yes the entire league knows Halladay is leaving but doesnt mean other teams wont pay to get him. And sorry but Beckett and Halladay >>>>>>>>>>> CC and AJ cheaper to

Bronxbombers182
11-25-2009, 03:28 PM
The Yankees can actually fill a need for the Jays, a catcher named Jesus Montero. Then we can give Jobs/Hughes, either or would be equal to Clay. I'm against giving Montero up, but if it gets you the best pitcher in Baseball, might have to. I can't see this happening for the Sox, before the winter meetings. Especially with the Yankees, Angels, Cubs, Mets involved. Let's be realistic, the Yankees package is better then the Sox, plus we can take on a bad contract as well. Just saying it won't happen before the winter meetings.

miller74
11-25-2009, 03:32 PM
The Yankees can actually fill a need for the Jays, a catcher named Jesus Montero. Then we can give Jobs/Hughes, either or would be equal to Clay. I'm against giving Montero up, but if it gets you the best pitcher in Baseball, might have to. I can't see this happening for the Sox, before the winter meetings. Especially with the Yankees, Angels, Cubs, Mets involved. Let's be realistic, the Yankees package is better then the Sox, plus we can take on a bad contract as well. Just saying it won't happen before the winter meetings.

Halladay isnt a bad contract, so does that mean you'd take wells's contract? :pray:

Halladay
11-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Does that come with some sort of guarantee or your money and prospects back?

Seriously though none of the typical major players ie. Yanks and Sox, are desperate for a front-line ace. They have other holes to fill while still being good enough as is to all but gurantee a playoff spot and trading guys like Monetero/Jackson and Bard/Kelly would be absolutely unnecessary because both teams could shore up their major holes via freeagency or just wait a season for Halladay to hit the open market and not have to give up anything worthwhile. Its obvious and rightfully so why fans don't want to part with much for him.

I understand that so why bother even being in the talks? Simply because it's the Yanks and BoSox? Because the media loves to twist it so that both those teams are in on every single big name player no matter how interested they are? I'm not sure why you were sarastic with "getting your money/prospects back, Halladay is a great pitcher, one of the best and one of the most durable. There are no negatives with this guy.


I think it's evident by teams unwilling to sign type B free agents more and more each off season. GM's are unwilling to give up a sandwich pick for a proven reliever for a chance to draft a player who won't help them any time soon.

Couple that with the fact that, teams for the most part are holding onto prospects more and more due to the cost efficiency and potential they hold. GM's are balancing TODAY and TOMORROW more then ever.

Yes, people might overrate prospects, but for good reason.

So forgive us if we don't want to rescue your team and give in to your demands for a player you're going to lose anyway.

I agree that GM's are more conscience then ever when regarding holding onto prospects but you need to understand the frustration us Jays have been going through. We're rebuilding and all we're seeing is lowball offers. We're not asking anyone to "rescue" us at all, we're simply asking for fair value. Yes we will lose Doc, which is sad, but that shouldn't effect his value to the team who's getting him.

Tragedy
11-25-2009, 03:39 PM
Thats fine you dont have to give your best prospects but Boston might. yes the entire league knows Halladay is leaving but doesnt mean other teams wont pay to get him. And sorry but Beckett and Halladay >>>>>>>>>>> CC and AJ cheaper to
I do agree that Sox > Yanks pitching rotation wise if we get Halladay. But just a few things:

1) It'd be Lester/Halladay > CC/AJ. Beckett would be our third best pitcher on the staff, which in itself would be amazing.

2) Yes, money wise CC/AJ costs more than Beckett/Halladay, Beckett/Lester, or Lester/Halladay. However, you're paying good money to Beckett and Lester. - You gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and obviously some top prospect(s) up for Halladay. The Yankees gave up zero prospects in netting AJ and CC.

Bronxbombers182
11-25-2009, 03:47 PM
Halladay isnt a bad contract, so does that mean you'd take wells's contract? :pray:
Sorry about that. Thats basicly what I was saying. I read that there might be a 3rd team involved with the trade talks with the Sox. Thats what it said, that the Sox would get Halladay and they would take on some bad contract from the 3rd team. The 3rd team would then send some prospects to the Jays. Obviously the sox would still have to give up big prospects to the Jays. I wouldn't want Wells though, to answer your question.

miller74
11-25-2009, 03:50 PM
Sorry about that. Thats basicly what I was saying. I read that there might be a 3rd team involved with the trade talks with the Sox. Thats what it said, that the Sox would get Halladay and they would take on some bad contract from the 3rd team. The 3rd team would then send some prospects to the Jays. Obviously the sox would still have to give up big prospects to the Jays. I wouldn't want Wells though, to answer your question.

ya i know nobody does

miller74
11-25-2009, 03:51 PM
I do agree that Sox > Yanks pitching rotation wise if we get Halladay. But just a few things:

1) It'd be Lester/Halladay > CC/AJ. Beckett would be our third best pitcher on the staff, which in itself would be amazing.

2) Yes, money wise CC/AJ costs more than Beckett/Halladay, Beckett/Lester, or Lester/Halladay. However, you're paying good money to Beckett and Lester. - You gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and obviously some top prospect(s) up for Halladay. The Yankees gave up zero prospects in netting AJ and CC.

You gotta give Beckett more credit he might be the best big game pitcher in baseball. Lights out in the playoffs

bosox3431
11-25-2009, 03:52 PM
I do agree that Sox > Yanks pitching rotation wise if we get Halladay. But just a few things:

1) It'd be Lester/Halladay > CC/AJ. Beckett would be our third best pitcher on the staff, which in itself would be amazing.

2) Yes, money wise CC/AJ costs more than Beckett/Halladay, Beckett/Lester, or Lester/Halladay. However, you're paying good money to Beckett and Lester. - You gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and obviously some top prospect(s) up for Halladay. The Yankees gave up zero prospects in netting AJ and CC.

actually whats really funny, halladay/lester/beckett would all three make less then AJ and CC

bagwell368
11-25-2009, 03:56 PM
Amazing to me how much we over-value prospects on this site. Nobody is willing to give up a kid or two who's done nothing for the best pitcher in baseball this decade. Ridiculous.

I am. Do it. If anything Buchholz and Kelly are not enough, I would expect 2 more mid tier specs to be tossed in as well. I'd do that too.

TallicaFan87
11-25-2009, 04:00 PM
actually whats really funny, halladay/lester/beckett would all three make less then AJ and CC

You really think Halladay is gonna resign for less than AJ? I mean I assume the Red Sox would be dealing for Halladay with the intention of signing him to a deal.

Anyway, maybe I'm way off in thinking this but why is the current Halladay situation any different than the whole Santana thing? There aren't many teams that can afford to give up a boatload of prospects and give a huge deal to Halladay. Last time it was the Mets, Red Sox and Yanks. I'd think you could throw the Angels in there this time and take the Mets out.

Sure there could be a team that could go all in for one year and give up the prospects hoping to win next year with Halladay and not resigning him. But this whole situation seems exactly like the Santana one. And we all remember the bounty of prospects the Twins got.

swagga81
11-25-2009, 04:01 PM
The Yankees can actually fill a need for the Jays, a catcher named Jesus Montero. Then we can give Jobs/Hughes, either or would be equal to Clay. I'm against giving Montero up, but if it gets you the best pitcher in Baseball, might have to. I can't see this happening for the Sox, before the winter meetings. Especially with the Yankees, Angels, Cubs, Mets involved. Let's be realistic,
the Yankees package is better then the Sox, plus we can take on a bad contract as well. Just saying it won't happen before the winter meetings.
No Freaking Way that the yanks package of prospects are better than the sox! :crazy: the only teams who have better prospects than the sox are both LA teams and the braves

donnie23
11-25-2009, 04:07 PM
actually whats really funny, halladay/lester/beckett would all three make less then AJ and CC

True but they wouldn't cost the RedSox less. CC and AJ only cost money and picks that we would screw up anyways.

bosox3431
11-25-2009, 04:17 PM
You really think Halladay is gonna resign for less than AJ? I mean I assume the Red Sox would be dealing for Halladay with the intention of signing him to a deal.

Anyway, maybe I'm way off in thinking this but why is the current Halladay situation any different than the whole Santana thing? There aren't many teams that can afford to give up a boatload of prospects and give a huge deal to Halladay. Last time it was the Mets, Red Sox and Yanks. I'd think you could throw the Angels in there this time and take the Mets out.

Sure there could be a team that could go all in for one year and give up the prospects hoping to win next year with Halladay and not resigning him. But this whole situation seems exactly like the Santana one. And we all remember the bounty of prospects the Twins got.

CC will make 23
Aj will make 16.5
Thats 39.5 mil

Halladay will make 15.75
Backett 12mil
Lester 3.75

Halladay will need to sign for about 25 mil to even it out, but his contract wont start til 2011, and I just mean next year.

And Its not relly that big of a deal, i just thought it wa funny

Bronxbombers182
11-25-2009, 04:26 PM
No Freaking Way that the yanks package of prospects are better than the sox! :crazy: the only teams who have better prospects than the sox are both LA teams and the braves Montero alone makes the Yankees package better. He fills a need for the Jays at catcher. Plus, please tell me what prospects do you have that makes you go Wow! Ajax and Montero are better prospects then Clay and Kelly. Come on! What position will Kelly play at? SS or is he a pitcher? Montero is a beast with the bat and is underestimated at D, didn't Ajax just win player of the year award in the minors.

BluejaysFan08
11-25-2009, 04:27 PM
In the division?
Meh, guess we'll see what happens.

1hardcore
11-25-2009, 04:36 PM
If they are going to compete... don't trade with them
If they are not they trade with them and rebuild pretty much waving the white flag here ....because who knows if Baltimore will be better including TB

1hardcore
11-25-2009, 04:37 PM
CC will make 23
Aj will make 16.5
Thats 39.5 mil

Halladay will make 15.75
Backett 12mil
Lester 3.75

Halladay will need to sign for about 25 mil to even it out, but his contract wont start til 2011, and I just mean next year.

And Its not relly that big of a deal, i just thought it wa funny


If i was an owner i'd pay Halladay 30 million plus!!!!! he's soooooooo worth it

Gibby
11-25-2009, 04:42 PM
I think there might be a couple of mid-tier prospects with Clay and Kelly. If the yanks offer Montero and Jackson, jays should take that. Thats only if Montero is going to be able to catch because we dont need him at 1st (Lind seems like he is moving to 1st).

Bronxbombers182
11-25-2009, 04:49 PM
I think there might be a couple of mid-tier prospects with Clay and Kelly. If the yanks offer Montero and Jackson, jays should take that. Thats only if Montero is going to be able to catch because we dont need him at 1st (Lind seems like he is moving to 1st).
The only reason they question Monteros abillity to stay a catcher, is his size. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able. Wich is the reason I'm scared to give him up

infernoscurse
11-25-2009, 04:54 PM
who cares that they get halladay, we gonna sign noel arguelles, take that boston nation!

NYY NYJ NYK
11-25-2009, 04:55 PM
They also said the Sox were a better team, at the begining of the 2009 season.

:laugh2:

Pretty safe to say they got that wrong.

Bronxbombers182
11-25-2009, 05:02 PM
Fine! Sox can have Halladay. We can still trade for Josh Johnson, maybe. Who am I kidding, I realy would like to see Halladay in pinstripes.

Bo Sox Fan
11-25-2009, 05:35 PM
:laugh2:

Pretty safe to say they got that wrong.

pretty sure they were RIGHT if they were refering to the BEGINNING of the season, 8-0 vs the Winkees.

quade36
11-25-2009, 06:25 PM
I don't know why you think it's that easy, but it's not. The Red Sox have a TON of question marks heading into this season. The same one's they had last season, only a year older. Can Lowell be an every day third baseman or even play 100 games and be productive? Who's the shortstop? Is the shoulder surgery Drew just had, who is the most injury prone player on the team to begin with, really not a big deal? What if Bay walks with the Sox assuming they can land Holliday, and someone comes in and outbids them for him at the last second (Yankees). Looks like Adrian Gonzalez is going nowhere. Cabrera is a fat drunk anyways.

Given all that, how can you possibly already write them in for a playoff spot.

Well, every team has question marks. The difference, the red sox have more studs on their team even with their question marks. Who in the AL East, or for that matter as a wild card can take them down. Can you honestly say even if they lose Bay and Lowell sucks they don't at least win the wild card? Compare their bullpen to all other AL teams? Compare their starters. Compare their lineup (without Bay and Lowell) I'd be shocked if the Red Sox won less then 90 games next year regardless. And as I said before, playoffs are a whole different thing.

Pedroia
11-25-2009, 06:25 PM
Holy cow! Who would've thought this would turn into a Yankees vs Red Sox thread? The Yankees won the WS. Congratulations. Most of you weren't alive for the first 20, maybe even 22, and I know no one in here was alive in 1918 to see the last Red Sox WS (prior to 2004). Who cares. Let's move forward with the offseason. Good luck!

YankeeFan28
11-25-2009, 06:30 PM
I would advise everyone to get back on topic

Imperial
11-25-2009, 06:42 PM
The only reason they question Monteros abillity to stay a catcher, is his size. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able. Wich is the reason I'm scared to give him up

The reason people question Montero's ability as a catcher is because he doesn't play good defense at that position. And if he's not a catcher, he's just another 1B/DH type who hit AA pitching well.

Strike89
11-25-2009, 06:42 PM
This is not gonna end quickly the Halladay rumors. Expect this to be dragged out until at least January.

jojoe1188
11-25-2009, 08:10 PM
Montero alone makes the Yankees package better. He fills a need for the Jays at catcher. Plus, please tell me what prospects do you have that makes you go Wow! Ajax and Montero are better prospects then Clay and Kelly. Come on! What position will Kelly play at? SS or is he a pitcher? Montero is a beast with the bat and is underestimated at D, didn't Ajax just win player of the year award in the minors.

id like to see u argue that with baseball insiders......i havent seen ajax or montero play but bucholz is an ace in waiting, he proved that this year.....i think most gms take an ace over a young catcher (assuming this kid isnt the next coming of mauer) any day, especially in a deal where ur giving up an ace

donnie23
11-25-2009, 08:41 PM
Like the ones who say "I love Derek Yeeter and George Posada!"

You gotta problem with George?:)

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
11-25-2009, 09:14 PM
A party hearty stick of a pitcher who'll be done by age 31 and a phenom pitcher (he's not so hot at SS) in A ball is too much for the best pitcher of the last decade?

.

If you mean "best pitcher of the last decade OTHER than Johan Santana," then you would be correct.

bagwell368
11-25-2009, 09:31 PM
Not suprised the Red Sox are going after Roy

During the post season they where off golfing (GOLFtober) while the Yankees where winning the W.S.

So they probably want to do everything possible to make sure that doesn't happen again.

I expect so.... they learned it from you buffons in '04 and '07, and '01, '02, '03, '05, '06, and '08. Bait elsewhere hoser.

donnie23
11-25-2009, 09:40 PM
What's a buffon, bags? Is it pronounced like muffin?

T.O. Fan
11-25-2009, 09:57 PM
I think there might be a couple of mid-tier prospects with Clay and Kelly. If the yanks offer Montero and Jackson, jays should take that. Thats only if Montero is going to be able to catch because we dont need him at 1st (Lind seems like he is moving to 1st).

Why does it have to be 1B? Why not 3B?

Twitchy
11-25-2009, 10:29 PM
If you mean "best pitcher of the last decade OTHER than Johan Santana," then you would be correct.

No, he means best pitcher of the decade. And he's right too. Santana is a nice One-B to Halladay's 1A. Especially when you account for quality of opponents faced by each.

Gibby
11-25-2009, 10:43 PM
Why does it have to be 1B? Why not 3B?

scouts don't see a move to 3b. they see him as a catcher, then a first basemen. i don't think he has the tools to play 3rd base.

bagwell368
11-25-2009, 10:53 PM
If you mean "best pitcher of the last decade OTHER than Johan Santana," then you would be correct.

In the 2004-2008 time frame that's clearly so. However, Doc was a great SP before Santana was even a SP, and in '09 he put up a better year, and Santana now has questions around his health. We'll see.

WAR says Santana is worth $150.3M since 2002, and says Halladay is worth $178.3M, and that does not include Doc's '98-'01 seasons 3 of which were very good, and included ~320 IP.

So sorry, as of right now in the last decade Doc > Santana

bagwell368
11-25-2009, 11:03 PM
What's a buffon, bags? Is it pronounced like muffin?

Oops, I was thinking about Buffon's needle an old (1777) geometric problem, when I wrote that. Of course I meant buffoon. Merriam says:

1 : a ludicrous figure : clown
2 : a gross and usually ill-educated or stupid person

I have met some very erudite Yanks fans, of which you are one, and I would never refer to any of you as buffoon's. However there are many lumpenproletariat among fans of the Yanks, and for them "buffoon" is a perfect sobriquet. Hope that clears it all up.

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
11-25-2009, 11:07 PM
In the 2004-2008 time frame that's clearly so. However, Doc was a great SP before Santana was even a SP, and in '09 he put up a better year, and Santana now has questions around his health. We'll see.

WAR says Santana is worth $150.3M since 2002, and says Halladay is worth $178.3M, and that does not include Doc's '98-'01 seasons 3 of which were very good, and included ~320 IP.

So sorry, as of right now in the last decade Doc > Santana

Well if we want to just look at WAR, yes. But(and I know you will tell me this is slightly because if the IP differences) Johan Santana holds a better career ERA, ERA+, WHIP, K/9, BAA, FIP, tRA. Halladay pitched more but I think we can agree Johan was more dominant. Sort of resembles the Pedro Martinez vs. Greg Maddux debate of the 90s.

bagwell368
11-26-2009, 12:13 AM
Well if we want to just look at WAR, yes. But(and I know you will tell me this is slightly because if the IP differences) Johan Santana holds a better career ERA, ERA+, WHIP, K/9, BAA, FIP, tRA. Halladay pitched more but I think we can agree Johan was more dominant. Sort of resembles the Pedro Martinez vs. Greg Maddux debate of the 90s.

You should do a search of posts I've had up in the last 18 months taking Santana over Doc, using ERA+, K/9 etc. The problem is Santana's average opponent value is lower then Doc's.

Yes, Johan was more dominant and his stuff is better - in the 2004-2008. In a lot of ways these two are 80% duplicates of Pedro and Roger (funny, I wrote this before I got to your Pedro/Maddux example). Pedro from '97 - '05 was more dominant, easily. The best 8 year run of all time for a SP IMO in the live ball era. But Roger's got a what? 5 to 3 ratio advantge on IP, and his ERA+ is only about 12 points lower. In terms of career saved runs compared to average, Pedro is simply no match.

Doc appears to be ready to throw 4 more 215+ IP at about a 135 ERA+. Santana could have two 165 years at a few less IP, and maybe an injury plagued year at 118 ERA+, and another short year at 123 ERA+. Most dominant? Obvious Ready to go every 5th day? Obvious

Either way, Santana isn't available now, and you're a good poster.

PapelbonLester
11-26-2009, 03:26 AM
Hopefully this happens...my sig is coming true!!! lol

championships
11-26-2009, 03:49 AM
So the rich get richer. Great! Gotta love baseball.

bagwell368
11-26-2009, 07:20 AM
So the rich get richer. Great! Gotta love baseball.

Just win baby!

And cut MLB back to 16 teams and 154 game schedule. The 16 teams are the ones with money, the others become AAA cities in acknowledgment of what they are already.

sofargone
11-26-2009, 02:55 PM
im starting to hate baseball. i think roy should be moved now, but i think im gonna boycott baseball next year (jays games anyways)

Bo Sox Fan
11-26-2009, 03:07 PM
So the rich get richer. Great! Gotta love baseball.

Last time I checked he was still a Blue Jay, and I'm wondering if he just did happen to get traded to Boston if Blue Jay fans would just start cheering for the Red Sox since Doc WAS the Blue Jays last year.

Halladay
11-26-2009, 03:33 PM
No self respecting Jays fan would ever cheer for Boston.

JetLi
11-26-2009, 04:28 PM
I would have to say that it's in the best interest of the Bosox to acquire Halladay. It actually makes more sense than the Yanks. As a Jays fan, I happen to know (without checking out the numbers) that the Bosox are top 3 against Halladay in terms of runs scored, WHIP, wins, where as Halladay has simply dominated the Yanks for the last 7 years. I believe Halladay is like 8-8 against the Bosox and he's like 17-5 against the Yanks (anyone want to verify the numbers for me?) I believe the ERA is just under 3 against the Yanks and just over 4 against the Bosox. So for the Bosox to acquire Halladay they have nullified the Yanks for 3-4 games a year, maybe more. The Yanks might get an extra 2 wins over the Bosox. It's really a WIN-WIN-WIN situation for all 3 teams. The Jays get to rebuild, one team gets depleted of some future prospects in exchange for 17+ wins and 220+ innings and one team doesn't get anything now, but doesn't lose anything for the future.

I would hate to see Doc go, but from a baseball standpoint, it makes more sense for Boston to pony up for the Doc than the Yanks.

Zaunnie
11-26-2009, 04:32 PM
No self respecting Jays fan would ever cheer for Boston.

what about McJoe?

infernoscurse
11-26-2009, 04:56 PM
No self respecting Jays fan would ever cheer for Boston.

halladay is my fave pitcher and if he were to be traded to the redsox id cheer for him, not for the team so it will be kinda awkward if it happens and i bet ill have millions of the yankee fans calling me names :o

sofargone
11-26-2009, 05:09 PM
No self respecting Jays fan would ever cheer for Boston.

i dont have a problem with boston, its NY that i dislike :box:

miller74
11-26-2009, 05:13 PM
No self respecting Jays fan would ever cheer for Boston.

:clap:

miller74
11-26-2009, 05:14 PM
i dont have a problem with boston, its NY that i dislike :box:

I am not a moron i have won 17 dundys

quiksilver2491
11-26-2009, 05:31 PM
So the rich get richer. Great! Gotta love baseball.

Aren't you a Lakers fan :eyebrow:

metsbulls1025
11-26-2009, 05:36 PM
Mets will come in at the last minute and get him after the Yankees and RedSox bid against eachother. :pray:

Bo Sox Fan
11-26-2009, 06:05 PM
the mets dont have any prospects of any worth left to trade since the Santana trade, when is the last time the Mets even made the playoffs? LMAO they will not get Halladay unless the package includes Wright

T.O. Fan
11-26-2009, 08:06 PM
No self respecting Jays fan would ever cheer for Boston.


what about McJoe?

He said self respecting......jk McJoe. Don't ban me ;)

magichatnumber9
11-26-2009, 08:56 PM
The Red Sox are not gonna do **** this offseason.

gfixer33
11-26-2009, 09:05 PM
this is gonna sound stupid it's basically for one year.unless there is a extension.so if whoever gets him doesn't win it all was it worth it?phillies,yanks,dodgers probabaly only teams that would be able to win it all with just adding him.red sox and mets are more than a halladay away.

Jimmy Shine
11-26-2009, 09:10 PM
this is gonna sound stupid it's basically for one year.unless there is a extension.so if whoever gets him doesn't win it all was it worth it?phillies,yanks,dodgers probabaly only teams that would be able to win it all with just adding him.red sox and mets are more than a halladay away.

I cant believe anyone is gonna seriously pony up unless the negotiating window nets a contract extension.

Sick Of It All
11-26-2009, 09:14 PM
the mets dont have any prospects of any worth left to trade since the Santana trade, when is the last time the Mets even made the playoffs? LMAO they will not get Halladay unless the package includes Wright

What do playoffs have to do with prospects?

..as far as prospects go do some research and find out who Fernando Martinez, Jenry Mejia, Ike Davis, Wilmer Flores, Jon Niese and Brad Holt are and where they have been ranked. All have been ranked in the top 100 prospects before except Mejia and Davis who will both make the list this coming year.

Jimmy Shine
11-26-2009, 09:21 PM
What do playoffs have to do with prospects?

..as far as prospects go do some research and find out who Fernando Martinez, Jenry Mejia, Ike Davis, Wilmer Flores, Jon Niese and Brad Holt and where they have been ranked. All have been ranked in the top 100 prospects before except Mejia and Davis who will both make the list this coming year.

And Id take any of em over Carlos Gomez. What a snake oil moment that was.

oak2455
11-27-2009, 12:18 AM
The Mets arent gettin Halladay sorry......................not a shot!!

Sportfan
11-27-2009, 02:46 AM
I don't think it's out of the question that they go after Halladay but the mets would be incredibly stupid going after him especially if they don't get an extension done beforehand. Their farm isn't exactly strong, and they're probably better off keeping their top prospects for possibly 1 year of Doc

Chaka44
11-27-2009, 03:10 AM
Hopefully Halladay doesn't end up with the Red Sox. Felix either. For those of us in a smallish market there is very little difference in the Yankees and the RedSox. Red Sox come off as the wholesome anti Yankees, but believe me, they are as sickening as anybody. Ellsbury and Pedroia excluded

Imperial
11-27-2009, 03:33 AM
Hopefully Halladay doesn't end up with the Red Sox. Felix either. For those of us in a smallish market there is very little difference in the Yankees and the RedSox. Red Sox come off as the wholesome anti Yankees, but believe me, they are as sickening as anybody. Ellsbury and Pedroia excluded

Do you equally "sickened" by the Mets and Cubs who have higher salaries than the Red Sox or are you just hating on the Red Sox?

mysteryman463
11-27-2009, 04:01 AM
Y'all need to keep up! Halladay has said he will not waive his no trade clause unless there is a nice new huge extension waiting on him at the new team!

1908_Cubs
11-27-2009, 04:06 AM
Do you equally "sickened" by the Mets and Cubs who have higher salaries than the Red Sox or are you just hating on the Red Sox?

The Red Sox are a year removed from having more payroll on the books than the Cubs and just a mere $4m less than the Mets. Lets not get on your high horse about the Red Sox here.

TuborgP
11-27-2009, 09:00 AM
Y'all need to keep up! Halladay has said he will not waive his no trade clause unless there is a nice new huge extension waiting on him at the new team!

This is the time of year that dreams are made of. Just like the little girl dreaming of a pony under the XMas tree, Jay fans dream of a rescued future fueled by a Halladay trade. Let them enjoy and beware the Grinch.

mysteryman463
11-27-2009, 11:25 AM
This is the time of year that dreams are made of. Just like the little girl dreaming of a pony under the XMas tree, Jay fans dream of a rescued future fueled by a Halladay trade. Let them enjoy and beware the Grinch.

They might as well accept reality they will be nothing more than an oversized development team that creates players forbthe rest of the league. Just like Pittsburgh, and KC! Yea they think they will get a world series contending team from this trade and signing Gonzo from us! If he was that good Theo would not have let him walk!

mysteryman463
11-27-2009, 12:38 PM
I wish we could trade for Josh Johnson LOL Hey one could wish! He pitched for my high school. I have not talked to him since HS. I was a LB and he was the star pitcher. Look it up Jenks High School right outside of Tulsa, OK! I always wanted to be a LB for Dallas and he wanted to be a pitcher for the Red Sox! My senior year I broke my knee and now I am a cop here and he made it.

PapelbonLester
11-27-2009, 02:33 PM
Hopefully Halladay doesn't end up with the Red Sox. Felix either. For those of us in a smallish market there is very little difference in the Yankees and the RedSox. Red Sox come off as the wholesome anti Yankees, but believe me, they are as sickening as anybody. Ellsbury and Pedroia excluded

Too bad we grow our own players most the time....

Youk
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Lester
Buchholz
Papelbon
Tazawa
Daniel Bard
MDC
Jason Varitek
Lowrie
Josh Reddick
Aaron Bates
Bowden

ALLL HOMEGROWN. Show me ur team and i bet u they dont have 10+ homegrown players. Stop HATING ON THE SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!

oak2455
11-27-2009, 02:46 PM
You sound stupid. Just saying.

Tazawa is not a Home Grown player do you even know what that means:confused:
LINK: BELOW
http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_red_sox_23_03-23-09_PFDP4MF_v12.393e375.html

Junichi Tazawa is the Red Sox’ latest import in the Japan-to–Boston pipeline
01:00 AM EDT on Monday, March 23, 2009
BY DANIEL BARBARISI

Journal Sports Writer
Tazawa
FORT MYERS, Fla. –– The Red Sox should give their Pacific Rim scouts a big bonus this year. When it comes to Japanese pitching acquisitions, the team can do no wrong.

Daisuke Matsuzaka and Hideki Okajima already have been success stories, and so far it that seems the next direct-from-Japan arrival, prospect Junichi Tazawa, is as good as advertised.

Tazawa was optioned to the minors yesterday to get more seasoning, but he made quite an impression in his first month on an American mound. In nine innings this spring, Tazawa allowed only one run. He has given up only five hits and walked one. He has struck out 10.

“Tazawa was lights out,” said manager Terry Francona. “Commanding his fastball, breaking ball was swing-and-miss –– he had an extraordinary camp.”

Tazawa’s performance is even more remarkable in light of his relative inexperience.

The 22-year-old has never faced professional hitters in either America or Japan. Tazawa came to the Red Sox from the Nippon Oil ENEOS of the Japanese industrial league, the equivalent of the minor leagues in Japan. Most Japanese signees have already proven themselves in Japan’s pro leagues and come with extensive pedigrees.

So Tazawa was more of an unknown. Because he had little track record against the best Japanese competition, there was no way to know how he would fare against American big-leaguers. On top of that, the fact that he was dealing in America for the first time, and Tazawa had a built in excuse if he struggled.

He didn’t need it.

“All the things he was fighting –– the new culture, the big differential from an industrial league to a major-league camp –– he handled everything. Nothing threw him off,” Francona said.

Tazawa will now go to Double-A Portland to get some seasoning.

Through a translator, he said that among the biggest surprises for him was witnessing the work ethic of some of the more well-known players, and learning that fame did not sap their desire to improve.

“Famous players are focusing on their play. He got to learn how they manage their practice and their training,” Tazawa’s translator said.

Tazawa has taken English classes this spring alongside Latino reliever Ramon Ramirez, and seemed comfortable in the clubhouse despite the unfamiliar environment.

He has leaned on another new Red Sox, veteran reliever Takashi Saito, to guide him through.

“Because everyone was supporting him, it was very smooth, more than he thought,” Tazawa’s translator said of the pitcher’s transition to America.

Tazawa attacks the plate with a fast, toppling delivery. He rears back and then releases the ball toward the plate with deceptively little motion.

“There’s no moving parts,” Francona said. “He was the quickest guy to the plate on our staff.”

Tazawa’s irregular motion is unfamiliar to American hitters and that may be at the root of some of his early dominance. But his quickness to the plate will be an asset always, as he’s so fast that stealing off him is extremely difficult. From the start of his windup to the release of the ball he takes a lightning-quick 1.1 seconds.

“You’ve got to get a bunch of hits to score off him. You can’t steal, and he’s not going to walk you,” Francona said.

Tazawa will work on game situations in the minors, and get as many innings as he can under his belt. The team wants to see him work out of the windup more and to see how he handles some adversity and the grind of a long season.

“Hopefully, he’ll just pick up where he left off, because he’s been really, really good,” Francona said.

dbarbari@projo.com

Rogi10
11-27-2009, 02:46 PM
Too bad we grow our own players most the time....

Youk
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Lester
Buchholz
Papelbon
Tazawa
Daniel Bard
MDC
Jason Varitek
Lowrie
Josh Reddick
Aaron Bates
Bowden

ALLL HOMEGROWN. Show me ur team and i bet u they dont have 10+ homegrown players. Stop HATING ON THE SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!

Theres a difference between homegrown and keeping homegrown players.

heres a hint: money helps.

infernoscurse
11-27-2009, 02:49 PM
lol @ varitek being a home grown player

NYY NYJ NYK
11-27-2009, 02:57 PM
Ya Varitek was traded to the Red Sox

1908_Cubs
11-27-2009, 02:58 PM
Too bad we grow our own players most the time....

Youk
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Lester
Buchholz
Papelbon
Tazawa
Daniel Bard
MDC
Jason Varitek
Lowrie
Josh Reddick
Aaron Bates
Bowden

ALLL HOMEGROWN. Show me ur team and i bet u they dont have 10+ homegrown players. Stop HATING ON THE SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hold on a quick second. Varitek was mostly a Seattle prospect. He spent one year in Boston's system, 3 in theirs. Tazawa is from Japan. Buchholz hasn't really established himself yet. Lowrie might not make the roster after his injury. Josh Reddick is 22 years old and hasn't done anything in the MLB yet, neither has Bates or Bowden.

Really, the only players you can really claim on that list are Youk, Pedroia, Paps, Lester and Ellsbury at this point. The rest have either not come from your system primarily (Tazawa, Varitek) or are a list of young players who have barely put together anything. That's like me as a Cubs fan saying the Cubs are home grown then listing off 10 guys who have a combined 150 ab's at the pro-level.

Looking at the Red Sox lineup, you have two position players you can claim to be home grown. The rest, are not.

infernoscurse
11-27-2009, 02:58 PM
Too bad we grow our own players most the time....

Youk --------- robinson cano
Pedroia ----------- derek jeter
Ellsbury ---------------melky cabrera
Lester -------------andy pettitte
Buchholz --------------phil hughes
Papelbon ---------------- david robertson
Tazawa ---------------- juan miranda
Daniel Bard ------------- joba chamberlain
MDC ---------------- mark melancon
Jason Varitek ------------- johnny damon
Lowrie ----------------- ramiro peña
Josh Reddick -----------brett gardner
Aaron Bates----------- jesus montero
Bowden ------------------ phil coke

ALLL HOMEGROWN. Show me ur team and i bet u they dont have 10+ homegrown players. Stop HATING ON THE SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!


ian kennedy
jorge posada
mariano rivera
francisco cervelli
chien ming wang
alfredo aceves
austin jackson



just saying.....

Cub_StuckinSTL
11-27-2009, 03:18 PM
I would go with the Phillies having a nice home grown talent team I mean look at their WS lineup last year

Hamels
Burrell
Howard
Rollins
Utley
Ruiz
Happ
Myers

Not a phillies fan but thats really just off the top of my head

infernoscurse
11-27-2009, 03:29 PM
+1



:yawn:

this argument is so old. who really gives a rats *** about homegrown players, and buying players. what does it really matter? And im including the idiot Sox fans also.

its not an argument or statement, to me thats overrated the homegrown , signed players , just answering his demands :D

Tragedy
11-27-2009, 03:46 PM
ian kennedy
jorge posada
mariano rivera
francisco cervelli
chien ming wang
alfredo aceves
austin jackson



just saying.....
Austin Jackson..Really?

So I guess I could rattle off the entire Red Sox AAA team, and I could say "See, we have home grown talent!"

donnie23
11-27-2009, 03:49 PM
Why are homegrown players better than traded for/free agents anyways?

Tragedy
11-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Why are homegrown players better than traded for/free agents anyways?
No freaking clue. I don't know why people have to get into such a pissing contest over "well we have 8 home grown players, 5 of them real good, and you guys have 6-3, we win!"

What does it matter?

infernoscurse
11-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Austin Jackson..Really?

So I guess I could rattle off the entire Red Sox AAA team, and I could say "See, we have home grown talent!"

lol i was waiting for him to say that thats why i put ajax and montero since he mentioned bates ;)

Eagles4Lyfe
11-27-2009, 03:52 PM
im not a sox fan or yankees fan but the sox have better home grown talents and develope prospects better..who the heck is ian kennedy hes not even good and austin jackson hasnt even proved anything yet..The sox top 3 homegrown pedroia lester and papelbon are better than the yanks top 3 homegrown....But why are we talkin about this in a doc trading thread if you want to argue this go make a thread about it but get out of here with that...Frankly i dont wan the sox getting doc but if you can give us what we need and want then w.e

infernoscurse
11-27-2009, 03:54 PM
:laugh::laugh:

tonyd3b54
11-27-2009, 04:01 PM
ellsbury
pedroia
youkilous
lester
bucholz
papelbon

all homegrown and all exluding bucholz are our best players so the redsox dont rape FA like the yankees do... what was the last big signing jd drew?

Cub_StuckinSTL
11-27-2009, 04:04 PM
No freaking clue. I don't know why people have to get into such a pissing contest over "well we have 8 home grown players, 5 of them real good, and you guys have 6-3, we win!"

What does it matter?

It matters in the fact that its the only way lower budget teams can really compete.

astavria
11-27-2009, 04:28 PM
I dont know how we all got off topic. But since we are on this subject, The Red Sox have better home grown talent then the Yanks do. They have to to be able to compete with the Yanks & their plethora of funds.

I wouldnt give up C.K and C.B for Doc at all. Y give 2 top prospects for a guy that we r gonna have to give a huge contract to anyways. So u want me to give up my top 2 prospects and shell out millions upon millions to sign him? I dont think so. I either give u 1 of the 2 and a few decent prospects for him or i just wait till he becomes a FA.

Y the push for Doc guys? We have Lester, Beckett, Dice-K, C.B. in the top of the rotation. Y not give Dice-K one more try @ being that guy for us. Y not give the prospects for someone we need like Adrian Gonzalez or H.R. or some other power bat!

Last year in the Playoffs we had pretty good performances from out SP's but what we didnt have was that bat. With Doc that doesnt change. The best defense is an offense and we another bat to get us over the hump and WS champs again!

NYY NYJ NYK
11-27-2009, 05:12 PM
The sox top 3 homegrown pedroia lester and papelbon are better than the yanks top 3 homegrown.

So Pedroia,Lester and Papelbon

Is better then Jeter, Rivera and Posada

FlakeyFool
11-27-2009, 05:59 PM
a nice, totally off topic thread


shut up with your stupid red sox vs yankees crap.

Bo Sox Fan
11-27-2009, 06:17 PM
Hold on a quick second. Varitek was mostly a Seattle prospect. He spent one year in Boston's system, 3 in theirs. Tazawa is from Japan. Buchholz hasn't really established himself yet. Lowrie might not make the roster after his injury. Josh Reddick is 22 years old and hasn't done anything in the MLB yet, neither has Bates or Bowden.

Really, the only players you can really claim on that list are Youk, Pedroia, Paps, Lester and Ellsbury at this point. The rest have either not come from your system primarily (Tazawa, Varitek) or are a list of young players who have barely put together anything. That's like me as a Cubs fan saying the Cubs are home grown then listing off 10 guys who have a combined 150 ab's at the pro-level.

Looking at the Red Sox lineup, you have two position players you can claim to be home grown. The rest, are not.

I love fans who are jealous of the Red Sox sucess the past few years. Your forgetting BUCHOLZ in your list who was our 3rd starter the entire second half of the season and pitched game 3 of the divisional series, along with BARD who was the setup man to Papelbon ever since june. Varitek has spent his entire career with Boston except his lousy rookie year about 15 YEARS AGO along with WAKEFIELD. Throw in Jed Lowrie on that list when he's healthy you Bo Sox haters, oh but you won't cause your own home team is brutal

YankeeFan28
11-27-2009, 07:10 PM
Great, the off season is here!