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View Full Version : Vince Carter not going to be honoured on Sunday



ldc62
11-21-2009, 10:32 PM
I have spoken with people in the Carter camp and Vince is going to pass on any kind of acknowledgment from the Raptors during tomorrow’s game at the Air Canada Centre against the Orlando Magic.

Apparently when this idea was brought up, someone mentioned that Carter himself should be asked about the whole thing and as it was put to me, "Why would Vince subject himself to that?" The reference to "that" being the cat calls and boos that would engulf any cheers showing appreciation.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2009/11/21/jones_carter/

Thoughts anyone?

Raps18-19 Champ
11-21-2009, 10:36 PM
I would honour him.

He put Canada on the map in the NBA and stayed for 7 years. Sure, he could have been more professional about wanting to leave but that was 5 years ago. People should stop booing him by now.

ldc62
11-21-2009, 10:37 PM
I just realized I didn't put this in the Raptors Forum...

carter15
11-21-2009, 11:20 PM
its not close to his first time returning to Toronto so i dont see why they'd honor him any way now...maybe when his career's over....but even then i doubt it.

marvILLous
11-21-2009, 11:23 PM
aw, i wanted this to happen. i would honour him tho

ink
11-21-2009, 11:24 PM
I hear he has a graduation ceremony to go to anyway. :smoking:

RocketsRule
11-21-2009, 11:27 PM
its not close to his first time returning to Toronto so i dont see why they'd honor him any way now...maybe when his career's over....but even then i doubt it.

Yeah agreed, I don't really see the point in them doing so.

Netslunatic76
11-21-2009, 11:30 PM
I remember all the games when he went to back Toronto where every time he touched the ball they would boo him even if they were dead quiet just prior. It seemed like every fan had a sign with Vince Carter being portrayed as a baby. They even had bibs with Vince Carter's face on them. Now they want to honor him? :rolleyes:

ink
11-21-2009, 11:32 PM
^ Maybe the franchise looked into it but it would be a minority of the fans who would want anything to do with it. I'm happy Carter took himself out of the running. He was pretty classless when he played for the Raps so it would be ridiculous to honour him. It would definitely stick in a few fans' craws.

Chronz
11-21-2009, 11:46 PM
So why does Canada hate the guy so much? Wouldnt you want out of a bad situation? Why does he have to live up to certain fans standards about how he should go about getting traded.

coolmo
11-21-2009, 11:47 PM
Yeah agreed, I don't really see the point in them doing so.

it's 15 years of franchise celebrating event and they wanted to honour vince carter for being the super star on the team.
not to mention his back number was 15. ( i donno if it relates though )

i think we should honour him but if fans are about to boo at the event, i will pass. it's a shame on us if they boo while franchise decided to honour him..

he left us in bad time and that paid us a serious damage but he was the reason raptors are known overseas. i still want him back.

j-mart
11-21-2009, 11:48 PM
I hear he has a graduation ceremony to go to anyway. :smoking:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

marvILLous
11-21-2009, 11:53 PM
I remember all the games when he went to back Toronto where every time he touched the ball they would boo him even if they were dead quiet just prior. It seemed like every fan had a sign with Vince Carter being portrayed as a baby. They even had bibs with Vince Carter's face on them. Now they want to honor him? :rolleyes:

lol you act like the fans are organizing this.. obviously not.. the whole raptors organization is doing it for the 15 years since the raps joined the nba.. we've honoured charles oakley already and i think there's a couple more players

like stoudamire, tmac, alvin williams, mo pete, and some more

td0tsfinest
11-21-2009, 11:54 PM
A lot of raptor fans need to grow up. This happened such a long time ago but we still go crazy every time we see him.

It's kind of like a relationship.

I've always like Vince Carter and still do. He became frustrated with management, never the city. The guys that were running our team at the time, we doing a ****ed up job. It seemed like every time we took a step forward (like the development of Bosh), we took 5 steps back (whole Araujo incident)

If I was at the game tomorrow and Vince was being honoured, i would stand up and salute him for sure.

spreadeagle
11-21-2009, 11:56 PM
It would have been awesome! I rarely pay the huge tix prices at ACC but id give a paycheck to come boo his *** outta town like everyone else.Then he'd drop 50 points on us like usual and id be pissed lol

Raps18-19 Champ
11-21-2009, 11:57 PM
So why does Canada hate the guy so much? Wouldnt you want out of a bad situation? Why does he have to live up to certain fans standards about how he should go about getting traded.

Maybe it's because he wasn't as professional as he can be about leaving and admitted it. Not to mention that we got a very horrible trade so that just added insult to injury.

I'm over it but maybe that's 1 of the reason other people aren't.

spreadeagle
11-21-2009, 11:58 PM
A lot of raptor fans need to grow up. This happened such a long time ago but we still go crazy every time we see him.

It's kind of like a relationship.

I've always like Vince Carter and still do. He became frustrated with management, never the city. The guys that were running our team at the time, we doing a ****ed up job. It seemed like every time we took a step forward (like the development of Bosh), we took 5 steps back (whole Araujo incident)

If I was at the game tomorrow and Vince was being honoured, i would stand up and salute him for sure.

I dont think ppl get like seriously mad its more of a get hammerd and boo vince while he plays extra hard against us and wins the game type thing...

gloveside
11-22-2009, 12:02 AM
Why do we hate this guy so much? We invested a lot of emotion into loving this guy for a number of years believing that he cared back, only to find out that he faked injuries and didn't try some nights - all the while smiling and saying it was not him who was orchestrating his departure. In addition, on the day of the biggest game of the season, the biggest game of his career -- the biggest game most of his teammates will ever see in their careers, Carter is off at his college in North Carolina participating in a graduation ceremony. It was a real slap in the face of Raptor fans - they should never welcome this poser back - he has burned his bridges.

Netslunatic76
11-22-2009, 12:03 AM
lol you act like the fans are organizing this.. obviously not.. the whole raptors organization is doing it for the 15 years since the raps joined the nba.. we've honoured charles oakley already and i think there's a couple more players

like stoudamire, tmac, alvin williams, mo pete, and some more

Why would they want to honor a player that fans don't like/don't appreciate?

marvILLous
11-22-2009, 12:11 AM
Why would they want to honor a player that fans don't like/don't appreciate?

do you know what vince carter did for the raptors before everything happened? obviously they have to consider him.. which is why they asked him if he wanted to be honoured...

Chronz
11-22-2009, 12:12 AM
Maybe it's because he wasn't as professional as he can be about leaving and admitted it. Not to mention that we got a very horrible trade so that just added insult to injury.

I'm over it but maybe that's 1 of the reason other people aren't.
How would you have forced your way out of a team that didnt get the hint when you stopped playing to your potential with them squandering your talent?

We dont know what happened behind closed doors but would it have been any different if Vince just sat the season out while waiting to be traded?

Netslunatic76
11-22-2009, 12:14 AM
do you know what vince carter did for the raptors before everything happened? obviously they have to consider him.. which is why they asked him if he wanted to be honoured...

It seems counterproductive to invite a player for an honor ceremony knowing that he is going to be booed.

clutchski
11-22-2009, 12:21 AM
I'll be at this game, I wouldn't have booed but I wouldn't have cheered either.

Kakaroach
11-22-2009, 12:27 AM
Just sad that he can't do this. Raptors fan should be ashamed of themselves, he did so much for that franchise and it was like 5 years ago. Get over it and appreciate what he did for your franchise.

dtmagnet
11-22-2009, 12:27 AM
So why does Canada hate the guy so much? Wouldnt you want out of a bad situation? Why does he have to live up to certain fans standards about how he should go about getting traded.

Give me a break. Why don't you get off your high horse.

clutchski
11-22-2009, 12:40 AM
Just sad that he can't do this. Raptors fan should be ashamed of themselves, he did so much for that franchise and it was like 5 years ago. Get over it and appreciate what he did for your franchise.

Easy for you to say, he got paid millions for us to appreciate what HE did for US..riiight.

JasonJohnHorn
11-22-2009, 12:50 AM
For Raptor's fans this is not a matter or "growing up", or "getting over it". Carter helped provide some entertainment for Raptors fans but eventually served as a catalyst that sent the team into rebuilding mode. Lots of players demand trades, but Carter did more than that. Carter deliberately did not try during games, his free-throw percentage dropped to a career low, his field-goal percentage as well, he stopped trying on defence, and leading up to that season which he demanded the trade he blamed the team's failrue the prior season on the coach, HOF Lenny Wilkens, who had done a great job with the team and had simply worked through a lot of injuries that season (the Raptors set the record for most games missed by players due to injury). Carter poisoned the team atmosphere, helped to fire a great coach, refused to put out an honest effort despite being paid a more than ample salary and lowered his trade value making it even harder to obtain a player or equal vaue in a trade. These things are not the type of things that should be "celebrated". Teams celebrate players who bring things to the team, to the city they played for. When Billups and Bem Wallace returned to Detroit for example, Detroit fans cheered both because both always put out and honest effort and helped the team to win. When Shaq returned to Miami or L.A., he was cheered, because he had helped those team to win and had been great for the community. What Carter did is not worthy of any sort of celebration. He played like an all-star, helped the team win one playoff series in 7 years and threw down some nice dunks, but ultimately hurt the team more than he ever helped it and Raptors fans don't have to applaude him for it.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-22-2009, 12:52 AM
How would you have forced your way out of a team that didnt get the hint when you stopped playing to your potential with them squandering your talent?

We dont know what happened behind closed doors but would it have been any different if Vince just sat the season out while waiting to be traded?

He shouldn't have just given up and at least tried to put in some effort. I know that you don't want to be there but you are still committed to play.

And he probably wouldn't have been as distracting if he did sit out while waiting.

Raph12
11-22-2009, 01:02 AM
The Raps fans still booing him are lame IMO, it was 5 years ago get over it, seriously.

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:30 AM
Give me a break. Why don't you get off your high horse.
I dont think that expression applies here, you see, IM the one NOT judging him or holding him to any sort of standard. Merely questioning the logic of the fans, I really want to understand them.


He shouldn't have just given up and at least tried to put in some effort. I know that you don't want to be there but you are still committed to play.

And he probably wouldn't have been as distracting if he did sit out while waiting.
I know you think that, I want to know why. Where do you get this sense of what he SHOULDVE done from? In his mind he put forth the effort, the team rewarded that effort with negligence, does that sound like a situation you would continue trying your hardest at, what about at a time when its all but a formality that your gone?

I know I wouldnt work as hard as I used to if I wasnt going to be there much longer, especially if I worked in an environment where I could risk my potential suitors interest by getting myself hurt. What did Vinces teammates think about it?

I dont understand how you guys could hate Vince when players have done much worse to your organization while having done nowhere near as much for it. Its a travesty that the best player to ever lace them up for your team isnt revered. Your going to let what happened behind closed doors, between the player vs management overshadow the years of success he willed for the franchise? Even if that incident permeated through a total tank job of an effort for what 20 games, why should that erase years of commendable service?

loveofthegame87
11-22-2009, 01:33 AM
What is this all he has done for them the farthest they went was to the second round. They were on tv a little but that doesn't change anything top notch free agents still don't come there. He brought eyes to the raptors by his spectacular plays but that didn't really result in wins. Honor the team not individuals players because frankly the players hadn't done anything to be honored

marvILLous
11-22-2009, 01:34 AM
I dont think that expression applies here, you see, IM the one NOT judging him or holding him to any sort of standard. Merely questioning the logic of the fans, I really want to understand them.
lol you're thinking too hard

it's just a habit now.. maybe the first couple years people were seriously upset with carter but now it's just a habit for the fans, and not to mention it's fun.. even tho vc kills us every time

vc's hands + ball = BOO

JC_
11-22-2009, 01:49 AM
I dont think that expression applies here, you see, IM the one NOT judging him or holding him to any sort of standard. Merely questioning the logic of the fans, I really want to understand them.

Read Jasonjohnhorn's post a few posts up. If you can handle that wall of text it pretty much explains the kinds of things that have fans not liking Carter.

From a competitive standpoint I dont understand why they would want to honor a guy who is on a team in the east that we're trying hard to beat, unless of course everyone was going to boo him for sure (not a chance worth taking imo).

What they should do is show a video of a bunch of sad/starving children saying things like "why vince!? why did you do it?" and then show some clips of him laughing during games when we're losing and all of the bad things that happend near the end of his time in T.O

mjt20mik
11-22-2009, 02:06 AM
For people wondering why Raptor fans still boo him. I'm going to breakdown my opinion of it. There are four things that really bothered me, as a Raptors fan, that last year he was with Toronto.

1) This is the one that I'm not to sure about, but it's rather frustrating if it was true. There were reports, that Carter told the Sonics bench which play we were running (I believe he said Flare) during a close bout in his last season here. I'm not sure if this was true, but it was in the tabloids.

2) He mentioned in front of the media, that dunking was overrated and that he did not want to dunk ever AGAIN. You could see this in games, where he missed some opened dunks (a reverse ally oop was one of them). Just a few months after saying this, he was tearing the rim down in NJ.

3) During an interview, he mentioned that in Toronto, he didn't push himself as much as he should / could have. Just because he had the athleticism, it came easy, and he didn't really put effort into anything.

4) This one can be taken anyway really, since its just my personal perspective on a situation, but during his first game back, things were getting heated between the Raptors and the Nets. Morris Peterson got a technical foul, and I believe the play after, Carter jokingly slapped him on the face (as a playful thing). Morris Peterson, still being upset, playfully slapped Carter back (again I should reiterate, it wasn't anything close to being hard) and as he did the Refs saw Mo Pete. He got his second tech and was ejected, while Carter was left untouched.

I was one of those fans that would boo, but right now I've out grown it. Sure Carter still annoys me, but he's done wonders for this team, so I would still acknowledge that.

carter15
11-22-2009, 02:14 AM
For people wondering why Raptor fans still boo him. I'm going to breakdown my opinion of it. There are four things that really bothered me, as a Raptors fan, that last year he was with Toronto.

4) This one can be taken anyway really, since its just my personal perspective on a situation, but during his first game back, things were getting heated between the Raptors and the Nets. Morris Peterson got a technical foul, and I believe the play after, Carter jokingly slapped him on the face (as a playful thing). Morris Peterson, still being upset, playfully slapped Carter back (again I should reiterate, it wasn't anything close to being hard) and as he did the Refs saw Mo Pete. He got his second tech and was ejected, while Carter was left untouched.


hahaha i remember that game and it was hilarious, especially cause he went for 42 points that night i believe, 24 in the 4th and had the game winning 3 with .1 seconds left. it wasn't his fault mopete got ejected, well it was, but its not his fault the refs overreacted, they were both kidding around and mopete got unlucky. it seemed Vince was tryna tell the ref that but the damage was already done.

mjt20mik
11-22-2009, 02:19 AM
hahaha i remember that game and it was hilarious, especially cause he went for 42 points that night i believe, 24 in the 4th and had the game winning 3 with .1 seconds left. it wasn't his fault mopete got ejected, well it was, but its not his fault the refs overreacted, they were both kidding around and mopete got unlucky. it seemed Vince was tryna tell the ref that but the damage was already done.

Actually, he was trying to tell the Ref it was just a joke, but Coach Frank told him to shut up lol. It was a good game, but just like the way the things went for that one, that whole thing was very annoying to watch.

We can all agree the Refs suck in the NBA :)

ldc62
11-22-2009, 02:29 AM
BTW i don't like the reason (why we hate VC): He went to his grad ceremony on the day against Philly.

We were a miss shot away from going to the ECF and he still played great that game. Its not like he showed up late and played like crap...

Chronz
11-22-2009, 02:34 AM
lol you're thinking too hard

it's just a habit now.. maybe the first couple years people were seriously upset with carter but now it's just a habit for the fans, and not to mention it's fun.. even tho vc kills us every time

vc's hands + ball = BOO

Thats why its wrong, it'll probably take for his retirement for Canada to embrace him.


For people wondering why Raptor fans still boo him. I'm going to breakdown my opinion of it. There are four things that really bothered me, as a Raptors fan, that last year he was with Toronto.

1) This is the one that I'm not to sure about, but it's rather frustrating if it was true. There were reports, that Carter told the Sonics bench which play we were running (I believe he said Flare) during a close bout in his last season here. I'm not sure if this was true, but it was in the tabloids.

2) He mentioned in front of the media, that dunking was overrated and that he did not want to dunk ever AGAIN. You could see this in games, where he missed some opened dunks (a reverse ally oop was one of them). Just a few months after saying this, he was tearing the rim down in NJ.

3) During an interview, he mentioned that in Toronto, he didn't push himself as much as he should / could have. Just because he had the athleticism, it came easy, and he didn't really put effort into anything.

4) This one can be taken anyway really, since its just my personal perspective on a situation, but during his first game back, things were getting heated between the Raptors and the Nets. Morris Peterson got a technical foul, and I believe the play after, Carter jokingly slapped him on the face (as a playful thing). Morris Peterson, still being upset, playfully slapped Carter back (again I should reiterate, it wasn't anything close to being hard) and as he did the Refs saw Mo Pete. He got his second tech and was ejected, while Carter was left untouched.

I was one of those fans that would boo, but right now I've out grown it. Sure Carter still annoys me, but he's done wonders for this team, so I would still acknowledge that.

No offense but those seem like some pretty petty isolated factors based on alot of hearsay. And its not like Vince made the ref T him up. Alot of athletes havent tried their hardest to reach their potential, plenty of others have tried less than Vince. What matters is what he is, not what he couldve been had he tried harder. And Ill take that Vince on my team any day, its not his fault he was injury prone and tried to develop a skill game to remain effective. The dunking bit was pretty insignificant honestly, its not like he said he would never dunk again. He just thinks people overrate their importance, probably because inside he knows its how his legacy will be remembered, as a dunker with a great offensive game. Instead of one of the games most unselfish stars with great vision and high IQ.

Chronz
11-22-2009, 03:19 AM
For Raptor's fans this is not a matter or "growing up", or "getting over it". Carter helped provide some entertainment for Raptors fans but eventually served as a catalyst that sent the team into rebuilding mode.
Ill admit I dont know much about the situation but to say a blanket statement like that and pin it on Vince is going too far for my liking, regardless of what he did to want to leave, alot of factors come into play here.

Personally I find it was managerial negligence that soured the relationship. From failing to surround Vince with talent, to not respecting his opinion on basketball related decisions, and whatever else he felt the team downplayed, honestly dont remember much but Ill give my 2 cents and you tell me if Im missing anything here....


Lots of players demand trades, but Carter did more than that. Carter deliberately did not try during games, his free-throw percentage dropped to a career low, his field-goal percentage as well, he stopped trying on defence,
How many superstars endure as long as Vince did for 1 team? Kobe called it quits after 3 years of losing, even though he had been to the Finals 5 times with the team already. Is that really so much worse than him being in cruise control before realizing how good the team was. Only difference in this parallel is that the Raptors werent as fortunate with their roster decisions.

Tmac in Orlando, stayed 4 years before wanting out, another situation that was totally blown out of proportion by Orlando fans, lost pub because management had folded within the year, and made the dumbest decisions and crippled the franchise in many ways. If not for Dwight saving the franchise they wouldve been in the same position as the Raps are now.

AI sat at home while his team waited to trade his ***, his team was actually competitive and thrived without him, another Philly player Wilt basically threatened to leave the league if his team hadnt traded him to a place of his choosing. San Francisco never really connected with him either.

Ron Artest told Larry Bird he was committed to bringing his championship caliber squad back on track, Bird invested so much faith into the guy, next thing you know he tells him he wants to take a break to promote his rap album, forces his way to Sacramento. Thats bad

Basically most of those teams dont boo because theyve moved on and experienced great success. The Raps are holding a grudge simply because they have nothing else to hold on to IMO. Even your own management wants to let it go, what more will it take?


and leading up to that season which he demanded the trade he blamed the team's failrue the prior season on the coach, HOF Lenny Wilkens, who had done a great job with the team and had simply worked through a lot of injuries that season (the Raptors set the record for most games missed by players due to injury). Carter poisoned the team atmosphere, helped to fire a great coach, refused to put out an honest effort despite being paid a more than ample salary and lowered his trade value making it even harder to obtain a player or equal vaue in a trade. These things are not the type of things that should be "celebrated". Teams celebrate players who bring things to the team, to the city they played for.
What tangible proof do you have that Lenny did a great job with the team? Or that Vince was wrong for not liking the coach, its nothing I havent seen several greats say about any given coach, and often times being right.

The lowering trade value thing is overblown unless you can put it all into context. For example, teams know if your trading a disgruntled star, they dont have to give you top dollar. Believe me when I say this, most teams have a handle on the kind of player you are, and what your worth. Your never gonna get equal trade value in these trades, the fact that the Raptors got fleeced was due to their own negligence. Ive seen teams get rid of cancerous hogs with considerably less trade value than the Raps got from prime Vince.


When Billups and Bem Wallace returned to Detroit for example, Detroit fans cheered both because both always put out and honest effort and helped the team to win.
Thats because they had eachother along with other great teammates, heck their management won an award for excellence, and were able to win despite wasting a number 2 pick. Players dont complain if they are winning, why would Vince be any different? The fans chear them on because management made the decision to trade them.




When Shaq returned to Miami or L.A., he was cheered, because he had helped those team to win and had been great for the community.
Yea but Shaq was a greater player than Vince, you shouldnt hold him to the same standard. Besides Shaq has always destroyed his trade value. The reason Kobe wanted out was because the Lakers couldnt surround him with talent, you know why? Brian Grants fat maxed out contract eating up at the cap. Thats what the Lakers got for Shaq, essentially Shaqs ego nearly forced the Lakers into losing both of their stars. Imagine that, hes the one who gets cheered... ps Im just agreeing with you, I always hear a mixture of boos and chears. Though nothing like Vince in Toronto.


What Carter did is not worthy of any sort of celebration. He played like an all-star, helped the team win one playoff series in 7 years and threw down some nice dunks, but ultimately hurt the team more than he ever helped it and Raptors fans don't have to applaude him for it.

So years of all-star performance is outweighed by him wanting out? I dont agree that it hurt the team more than it helped, its telling that your current and less biased owner is the one who thought it should happen, its the collective ignorance of the fan base that doesnt want to let go of something they really shouldnt be effected by. Vince wont subject himself to hate, even though the team wants to honor him. Thats a new low for hate.

I agree Raptor fans dont have to applaud him, but they can allow those who want to honor him to do so in peace, without fear of them disturbing what is meant to be a great event. It would be the equivalent of me booing you at your wedding bro. Just because you divorced my sisters friends cousin (thats how far removed you should feel from your management).

What the Raptors management did is not worthy of any sort of respect. To think this isnt a stars league is to ignore the realities of a tradition apparent since the leagues inception. Every player has to go through his own set of circumstances to go out, for Vince, this is what he had to do to get their attention. They could have sent him home like plenty of other teams did and gotten a good deal. Shame they werent so bright, but to hold that against Vince is dumb.

torontosports10
11-22-2009, 03:29 AM
So why does Canada hate the guy so much? Wouldnt you want out of a bad situation? Why does he have to live up to certain fans standards about how he should go about getting traded.


Maybe because he was getting paid millions of dollars to play a game that he loves and all he did was quit on his team. He doesnt have to live up to fans standards but he has to live up to being a professional and the way he left was not professional at all. Im over it and dont give a damn either way, but quitting on a team while getting paid millions of dollars to do so is unaccetable.

mjt20mik
11-22-2009, 05:02 AM
Thats why its wrong, it'll probably take for his retirement for Canada to embrace him.



No offense but those seem like some pretty petty isolated factors based on alot of hearsay. And its not like Vince made the ref T him up. Alot of athletes havent tried their hardest to reach their potential, plenty of others have tried less than Vince. What matters is what he is, not what he couldve been had he tried harder. And Ill take that Vince on my team any day, its not his fault he was injury prone and tried to develop a skill game to remain effective. The dunking bit was pretty insignificant honestly, its not like he said he would never dunk again. He just thinks people overrate their importance, probably because inside he knows its how his legacy will be remembered, as a dunker with a great offensive game. Instead of one of the games most unselfish stars with great vision and high IQ.

I said that the Flare nonsense wasn't certain, and the Tech was partly (not totally) his fault, but I stand by the other two.

But your explanation on the two make no sense. He said he DOESN'T WANT TO DUNK ANYMORE. I don't understand what part of that you didn't understand from his interviews, but that was said. And dunking has nothing to do with being unselfish or showing great vision and IQ. Carter right now is even known for his dunks, even though apparently he's been "one of the games most unselfish stars with great vision and high IQ".

Also regarding not pushing himself. In the link below, you can actually see the clip from the Interview when he stated that he hasn't in "years past". If a former player on your team goes out and openly says, I haven't been trying my best with my old team, but I'm trying now with my new team, what does that say about the person's character.

But I'm done with all this nonsense. People asked why Raptor fans hate Carter, and I gave the basic rundown. Is he a great player? Yes. He just left a sour taste with Raptor fans, that still lingers to this day.

FYI for anyone wanting to see the Top 10 Reasons Why Raptor Fan's Hate Vince.. here it is..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqD9XiMNv0

Gambeezy
11-22-2009, 05:08 AM
meh. Can't say that I care either way. Vince cried like a baby towards the end of his tenure there yet he put Toronto on the map and is one of the greatest dunkers in history. He deserves some respect, but it is certainly at the fans discretion.

ink
11-22-2009, 05:16 AM
meh. Can't say that I care either way. Vince cried like a baby towards the end of his tenure there yet he put Toronto on the map and is one of the greatest dunkers in history. He deserves some respect, but it is certainly at the fans discretion.

Totally fair post.

MaHaRaJaH
11-22-2009, 06:16 AM
I hear he has a graduation ceremony to go to anyway. :smoking:

Somebody had to say it:D

JasonJohnHorn
11-22-2009, 10:35 AM
Ill admit I dont know much about the situation Its clear, judging from your comments that this admission is true.

Personally I find it was managerial negligence that soured the relationship. From failing to surround Vince with talent, to not respecting his opinion on basketball related decisions, and whatever else he felt the team downplayed, honestly dont remember much but Ill give my 2 cents and you tell me if Im missing anything here....[/QUOE]
Not surrounding him with talent? Do you know who was on that team? Hakeem the Dream? Antion Davis? Charles Oakley, Jerome Williams and Keon Clark? They had the deepest front court in the league at the time. They had McGrady with him, they signed Marc Jackson and they hired a HOF coach in Wilkens. So to say that they did not put "talent" around him just illustrates how little you really know about the situation. They lost a lot of games the year before he was traded because the team- out of pure bad luck- set an NBA record for most games missed due to injury. Mo Pete, Davis, Hakeem, and Carter most of all, missed so many games. There were games that season when the Raptors only dressed 7 players and 3 of them had never played for the team before and were on 10-day contracts, and Wilkens still got wins out of those rosters. Wilkens did an amazing job and well his close to 30 wins seems meek, when you look at how teams with healthy rosters still only pull out 15 wins in a season, you can have a lot of respect for what Wilkens did that year. Quantifiable? You are right to say you can quantify somebody's coaching, but Wilkens is a HOF coach and never had issues with players before Carter.

As for not respecting VC's opinions, VC asked that they fired Wilkens and the GM and hire Dr. J as the team President. The team was hesitent because, from what I heard, Dr. J wasn't that interested and had made a debacle of the Orlando Magic in that role (as Isaih did with the Knicks and Jordan did with the Wizards). Dr. J hasn't gotten a job since in that so obviously this wasn't a "Raptors are idiots" thing, because nobody else hired him either.

As for respecting players choices, I guess Kobe, demanding the Lakers trade Bynum for Kidd, was right? Teams don't always listen to their players for a reason. The Lakers ignroed Kobe, kept Bynum and won a title. Had they listened to him, would Kobe have a fourth ring now?

[QUOTE]How many superstars endure as long as Vince did for 1 team? Kobe called it quits after 3 years of losing, even though he had been to the Finals 5 times with the team already. Kobe demanded a trade, he didn't call it quits. Look at his game, he was always a 110%, even when he wanted to be traded. You make 8 figures, you try, that's what you get paid for. Garnett did the same thing with the T-Wolves, he asked (privately) for a trade and then went out and busted his *** off all season for a T-Wolves team that was head for the lottery. Kobe and Garnett are competitors and niether ever tanked a game while they were unhappy with their rosters, like Carter did. Carter even told Ray Allen what play the Raptors were running at the end of game? And Raptor fans are supposed to honour this?



Tmac in Orlando, stayed 4 years before wanting out, another situation that was totally blown out of proportion by Orlando fans, lost pub because management had folded within the year, and made the dumbest decisions and crippled the franchise in many ways. If not for Dwight saving the franchise they wouldve been in the same position as the Raps are now.
Great example: McGrady told the team to trade the top pick (Dwight Howard) for a vet, because he didnt want to wait around for a highschool player to get good, like he expected the Raptors to wait for him to get good when he came out of highschool. How smart was that? Good things the Magic didn't listen to some ego-maniac and dump Howard because they'd look pretty stupid now if they had.




Basically most of those teams dont boo because theyve moved on and experienced great success. The Raps are holding a grudge simply because they have nothing else to hold on to IMO.
Nothing to hold onto? We've had lots of talented players and have a great squad right now. And if Bosh leaves after this season I will still respect that he busted his asss off every game and refused to talk about trades and free agency when reporters nag him about it because he has too much respect for the team he is trying to help win right now.



The lowering trade value thing is overblown unless you can put it all into context. For example, teams know if your trading a disgruntled star, they dont have to give you top dollar. Believe me when I say this, most teams have a handle on the kind of player you are, and what your worth. Your never gonna get equal trade value in these trades, the fact that the Raptors got fleeced was due to their own negligence. Ive seen teams get rid of cancerous hogs with considerably less trade value than the Raps got from prime Vince.

Prior to the trade Carter said he wasn't dunking any more and talked about how his knee limited his game and then tank his free-throws and didn't try. That is diuluting your trade value.



Don't expect Raptors fans to applaude him.

GodsSon
11-22-2009, 01:07 PM
it was a stupid idea to want to honour a player who is still active, and plays for an opposing team...what did they expect the outcome to be?...and anyone saying we should get over it are people who's team has clearly not had that bad of a break-up with a player...if the Lakers had ended up trading Kobe a few years back after he publicly said he wanted out on the radio, you think the Laker fans would applaud him upon his return? give me a ****ing break

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:16 PM
Its clear, judging from your comments that this admission is true.
Cute


Not surrounding him with talent? Do you know who was on that team? Hakeem the Dream?
LMFAO I was trying to take you seriously and you return the favor with jokes?


Antion Davis? Charles Oakley, Jerome Williams and Keon Clark? They had the deepest front court in the league at the time. They had McGrady with him, they signed Marc Jackson and they hired a HOF coach in Wilkens. So to say that they did not put "talent" around him just illustrates how little you really know about the situation.
LOL Yea the Tmac situation was another **** up, how can you lose a guy like that and get nothing in return. I understand he wanted to leave but you still gotta get something worth your time. And no they did not put talent, you naming names proves nothing.


They lost a lot of games the year before he was traded because the team- out of pure bad luck- set an NBA record for most games missed due to injury. Mo Pete, Davis, Hakeem, and Carter most of all, missed so many games. There were games that season when the Raptors only dressed 7 players and 3 of them had never played for the team before and were on 10-day contracts, and Wilkens still got wins out of those rosters. Wilkens did an amazing job and well his close to 30 wins seems meek, when you look at how teams with healthy rosters still only pull out 15 wins in a season, you can have a lot of respect for what Wilkens did that year.
The closest thing we have to account for random variations are expected win results, they act as a barometer for a teams true level of play regardless of win loss record. Not once did they overachieve. Im looking at the teams and what he got out of them, I dont see whats amazing. Lenny was done as a coach at this point, he was given one last chance in NY but again he failed to connect with his players.



Quantifiable? You are right to say you can quantify somebody's coaching, but Wilkens is a HOF coach and never had issues with players before Carter.
Wait so are you actually suggesting that HOF coaches never lose their luster? Give me a break bro


As for not respecting VC's opinions, VC asked that they fired Wilkens and the GM and hire Dr. J as the team President. The team was hesitent because, from what I heard, Dr. J wasn't that interested and had made a debacle of the Orlando Magic in that role (as Isaih did with the Knicks and Jordan did with the Wizards). Dr. J hasn't gotten a job since in that so obviously this wasn't a "Raptors are idiots" thing, because nobody else hired him either.
Yea, from what I gather they didnt even give it the time of day. The Raps were idiots for a multitude of reasons, not just dissing their star player.



As for respecting players choices, I guess Kobe, demanding the Lakers trade Bynum for Kidd, was right? Teams don't always listen to their players for a reason. The Lakers ignroed Kobe, kept Bynum and won a title. Had they listened to him, would Kobe have a fourth ring now?
The fact that Kobe was wrong doesnt change the fact that them not listening to him is what made him want out. And in fairness, Kobe may have ended up leaving once Bynum went down if not for the Pau trade. And in Kobes situation he had been through large amounts of success, Vince couldnt even get a decent supporting cast. Fair to say, the respect level between questioning Toronto's decisions vs Lakers isnt the same.


Kobe demanded a trade, he didn't call it quits. Look at his game, he was always a 110%, even when he wanted to be traded. You make 8 figures, you try, that's what you get paid for.
You obviously werent watching Kobe. The guy was on cruise control after he demanded a trade, the main difference between him and Vince, is that hes better at it, he didnt have to endure as much managerial negligence.



Garnett did the same thing with the T-Wolves, he asked (privately) for a trade and then went out and busted his *** off all season for a T-Wolves team that was head for the lottery.
KG is champ, but hes also the same guy who sat out his teams final games with a fake injury. Do the fans feel betrayed? No they understand, it was managerial negligence that led to his leaving.


Kobe and Garnett are competitors and niether ever tanked a game while they were unhappy with their rosters, like Carter did. Carter even told Ray Allen what play the Raptors were running at the end of game? And Raptor fans are supposed to honour this?
Yes because your talking about isolated incidents while me and your new management are thinking BIG PICTURE, YEARS WORTH OF PERFORMANCES.


Great example: McGrady told the team to trade the top pick (Dwight Howard) for a vet, because he didnt want to wait around for a highschool player to get good, like he expected the Raptors to wait for him to get good when he came out of highschool. How smart was that?
Yea he didnt want to go through a rebuilding project, kind of how Pierce told the Celtics and they brought him Ray Allen and KG. Tmac wanted something like that, and it was incredibly smart given what we knew at the time. It seemed like it was going to take years for Dwight to get to a level that Tmac could compete with. And he never expected anything from the Raptors. Its why he left high and dry.



Good things the Magic didn't listen to some ego-maniac and dump Howard because they'd look pretty stupid now if they had.
Not as dumb as they look for the way they lost Tmac, they couldve kept him and Dwight had they played their cards right. Your totally missing the point if you think Im saying players should call the shots. Its just about respect, and taking their basketball opinions seriously. And had they ended up competing for a chip nobody wouldve thought them dumb for it.



Nothing to hold onto? We've had lots of talented players and have a great squad right now. And if Bosh leaves after this season I will still respect that he busted his asss off every game and refused to talk about trades and free agency when reporters nag him about it because he has too much respect for the team he is trying to help win right now.
Lots now? LOL sure, like the magnificent Hakeem the Dream right... lol



Prior to the trade Carter said he wasn't dunking any more and talked about how his knee limited his game and then tank his free-throws and didn't try. That is diuluting your trade value.

You underestimate how much GM's know. Your trade value isnt further diluted once your in that situation of disgruntled star wanting out, your worth what your performance dictates. Its not like teams were out there saying hey look Vince's FT% is down right now, lets cash in. No both parties know what the guy is capable, had the Raps been smart they wouldve sent his *** home like several teams do when their relationship with the star completely sours. Teams arent thinking to themselves Vince is only a 14ppg player now, hes not worth anything so lets get him while hes not hot and catch the rebound.


Don't expect Raptors fans to applaude him.
Trust me, I dont. I just wish those same fans would give those who wish to honor a rightful guest to do so in peace. Your management wishes this so, why cant you guys get over it, when it literally has nothing to do with you guys.

ink
11-22-2009, 01:21 PM
it was a stupid idea to want to honour a player who is still active, and plays for an opposing team...what did they expect the outcome to be?...and anyone saying we should get over it are people who's team has clearly not had that bad of a break-up with a player...if the Lakers had ended up trading Kobe a few years back after he publicly said he wanted out on the radio, you think the Laker fans would applaud him upon his return? give me a ****ing break

I agree totally with the bolded part but just for reference, didn't this all start because of Raptors 15th anniversary event planning? They must have thought they were doing the right thing by asking their ex-star to take part in the festivities. Obviously that ignores both the bad blood between them, and the fact that he's still an active player, playing for one of Toronto's biggest current rivals. I guess technically they had to extend the invitation, and VC was right to decline. Very few people would have applauded him.

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:22 PM
it was a stupid idea to want to honour a player who is still active, and plays for an opposing team...what did they expect the outcome to be?...and anyone saying we should get over it are people who's team has clearly not had that bad of a break-up with a player...if the Lakers had ended up trading Kobe a few years back after he publicly said he wanted out on the radio, you think the Laker fans would applaud him upon his return? give me a ****ing break

Laker fans are fickle but their rich history and tradition keeps them from allowing the bad to overcome the good. If Shaq can get alot of chears after his divorce, Kobe would get more. Laker fans will hate on you once you leave their team, but if it came down to honor what you did FOR the franchise, they will applaud.

GodsSon
11-22-2009, 01:28 PM
^ all that needs to be said is this...you arent from Toronto or a Raptor fan, so you have no say on how the fans should act or feel towards Carter; call it managerial negligence all you want, the guy was being paid millions to produce and he wasnt doing that in his final year, instead he was pouting on the court and to his mother (even his mother cried to the media)...players like that get no respect in this league and arent winners, exactly why him and your beloved T-Mac will remain losers

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:28 PM
I agree totally with the bolded part but just for reference, didn't this all start because of Raptors 15th anniversary event planning? They must have thought they were doing the right thing by asking their ex-star to take part in the festivities. Obviously that ignores both the bad blood between them, and the fact that he's still an active player, playing for one of Toronto's biggest current rivals. I guess technically they had to extend the invitation, and VC was right to decline. Very few people would have applauded him.
New York fans are ruthless, the turned on Ewing of all people. Want to know when they finally embraced him? When he was in MSG as a visitor/competitor.

You can boo Vince while hes on the court, but for **** sake appreciate what he did for the team. It should far outweigh what he did to your ****** management.

smith&wesson
11-22-2009, 01:31 PM
So why does Canada hate the guy so much? Wouldnt you want out of a bad situation? Why does he have to live up to certain fans standards about how he should go about getting traded.

I agree, I think carter gave us the best years of his career, and much like now the lack of talent around him eventually made him decide to leave.
why would any one want to stay in a bad situation ? if anything he was smart for leaving and going to the nets. thats what enabled him to go to the 2nd round. if he had stayed here, he would have never reached the 2nd round.

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:33 PM
^ all that needs to be said is this...you arent from Toronto or a Raptor fan, so you have no say on how the fans should act or feel towards Carter;
Im trying to understand it, so far you guys have come up with nothing that every other star who forced his way out went through. Sure there are unique tidbits but nothing worth this.


call it managerial negligence all you want, the guy was being paid millions to produce and he wasnt doing that in his final year
Management was making money off him, without Vince whats to say the Raptors dont end up like the Grizz? He did more than hold up his end of the bargain from a contractual perspective, but after years of losing, when things go bad and management isnt holding up their end by providing you with quality talent.. Only a fool would continue putting forth the same effort. He was getting paid for a multitude of reasons, many of which go beyond his on court services. You really have to understand the business that is the NBA if your going to tell me what a player was being paid to do.


, instead he was pouting on the court and to his mother (even his mother cried to the media)...players like that get no respect in this league and arent winners, exactly why him and your beloved T-Mac will remain losers
OH no, they will remain losers, my god.

ink
11-22-2009, 01:34 PM
New York fans are ruthless, the turned on Ewing of all people. Want to know when they finally embraced him? When he was in MSG as a visitor/competitor.

You can boo Vince while hes on the court, but for **** sake appreciate what he did for the team. It should far outweigh what he did to your ****** management.

To be honest I don't care much about the topic. Long before VC started faking injuries, etc. I had no time for him. I guess he runs up some good stats, so congrats to him for that. Not my type of professional athlete, never was, never will be. It's not like my heart was ever "broken" because he left. I've said many times that I can't wait for the MJ wannabee's (VC, McGrady, AI, etc) to all retire so we don't have to talk about these guys any more.

GodsSon
11-22-2009, 01:37 PM
OH no, they will remain losers, my god.

a tarnished legacy is fitting for both of those crybabies :)

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:40 PM
To be honest I don't care much about the topic. Long before VC started faking injuries, etc. I had no time for him. I guess he runs up some good stats, so congrats to him for that. Not my type of professional athlete, never was, never will be. It's not like my heart was ever "broken" because he left. I've said many times that I can't wait for the MJ wannabee's (VC, McGrady, AI, etc) to all retire so we don't have to talk about these guys any more.
How do you know he was faking?
Why do you mention stats?
And those wannabes will be replaced by other wannabes so the talk wont go away.


But really so long as your not booing the guy, your not in the wrong. Why would you boo the guy who put your team on the map, made it possible for it to succeed in its most crucial state, and displayed a level of play few ever reach.

You guys are taking it for granted. Simply saying he put up good stats is undermining what he actually did, PERFORM.

Chronz
11-22-2009, 01:45 PM
a tarnished legacy is fitting for both of those crybabies :)
Tarnished? LOL yea because Im so sure going down as an multiple All-NBA first teamer, multiple top placings for MVP's and putting down some of the single most impressive individual seasons of all time is such a disgrace. Those bastards got exactly what was coming to them, damn those millionaires.

GodsSon
11-22-2009, 01:47 PM
^ money doesn't buy respect boss...and individual accolades mean nothing considering the sport is a team game, and both lack the biggest achievement there is

ink
11-22-2009, 01:50 PM
But really so long as your not booing the guy, your not in the wrong. Why would you boo the guy who put your team on the map, made it possible for it to succeed in its most crucial state, and displayed a level of play few ever reach.

You guys are taking it for granted. Simply saying he put up good stats is undermining what he actually did, PERFORM.

Like I said, I don't really care about VC. Never really cared for him as a player. I definitely don't feel any "obligation" to him for anything. He got paid to do his job. He stopped doing his job at the end. Pretty simple really, and it's too uninteresting to get worked up about.

I've been posting for several years that people need to stop booing the guy. It looks bad on Toronto and it just feeds his ego anyway. I just can't be bothered to get annoyed with the big egos in this league. Let someone else get worked up about it. Better yet, cut the booing out so we can watch basketball. Too many soap operas in the NBA. And as soap operas go, this one is just plain weak all round. No one escapes with any dignity in a dumb situation like the Carter situation.

Jamiecballer
11-22-2009, 02:24 PM
I dont think that expression applies here, you see, IM the one NOT judging him or holding him to any sort of standard. Merely questioning the logic of the fans, I really want to understand them.


I know you think that, I want to know why. Where do you get this sense of what he SHOULDVE done from? In his mind he put forth the effort, the team rewarded that effort with negligence, does that sound like a situation you would continue trying your hardest at, what about at a time when its all but a formality that your gone?

I know I wouldnt work as hard as I used to if I wasnt going to be there much longer, especially if I worked in an environment where I could risk my potential suitors interest by getting myself hurt. What did Vinces teammates think about it?

I dont understand how you guys could hate Vince when players have done much worse to your organization while having done nowhere near as much for it. Its a travesty that the best player to ever lace them up for your team isnt revered. Your going to let what happened behind closed doors, between the player vs management overshadow the years of success he willed for the franchise? Even if that incident permeated through a total tank job of an effort for what 20 games, why should that erase years of commendable service?


character counts in TO. not defending the booing however, i've never understood fans who boo athletes.

rocky4104
11-22-2009, 02:53 PM
New York fans are ruthless, the turned on Ewing of all people. Want to know when they finally embraced him? When he was in MSG as a visitor/competitor.

You can boo Vince while hes on the court, but for **** sake appreciate what he did for the team. It should far outweigh what he did to your ****** management.

i agree. it's human nature. happens to other leagues as well, remember when favre returned to green bay the first time?

JasonJohnHorn
11-22-2009, 02:55 PM
Chronzie, you can't seriously LOL at the idea that T.O.'s front office DID put great players around Vince. Hakeem is a HOF and though he was on the decline it wasn't much different than the Cavs picking up O'Neal. They had an all-star center in Antonio Davis, a perenial rebounding leader and proven veteran in Charles Oakley, one of the best bench rebounders in Jerome Williams (he was among league leaders in rebounds-per minutes) and Keon Clark, who though he has had substance abuse problems since, was still one of the most efficient shot blockers in the league and like Jerome Williams was one of the best rebounders off the bench the league had that season. With the signing or Marc Jackson (another HOFer at point guard), Alvin Williams, a talented young point guard, and Mo Pete, the Raptors had a great roster, and they had a HOF coach. They put talent around VC. And Wilkens did an amazing job with that roster. The season after they lost in the second round they were like ten games out of the playoffs and WITHOUT VC they put on a huge win streak that got them into the playoffs (the Raptors ended up with a better record without VC that year under Wilken's guidance), and the season after when VC got injured again, WIlkens still pulled out 24 wins out of a team that had their core players miss over a total of 300 games while healthy teams the Cavs and Nuggets couldn't win even 20 games, and VC blamed Wilkens for the losses when he wasn't even on the court most of the season to help and then got pissed off because they didn't hire a guy that no other team has hired since?

Trust me, Raptors fans are over and don't give a rats @$$ about Carter, but we aren't interested in honouring him either. And yeah, our front office has made mistakes (Barngani? Firing Mitchell? Yeah). But they have generally drafted well (Camby, Damon Stoudemire, Bosh, McGrady) they listened to Carter when he wanted Wilkens gone. Carter just didn't want to admit that the team was limited so long as he was the "franchise player" because he just wasn't as good as Kobe, or Duncan or Garnett. He's a poor man's Kobe, hell, he's a poor man's McGrady, and no, teams do not have to listen to their players. There have been any number of times when players have made bad suggestions to their teams. Bottom line is VC obviously doesn't know ball like he thinks he did because he's still never been to the finals and as far as i remember has even got to the conference finals in his career.

No need to honour a guy that didn't put out an honest effort and passed the buck whenever his team lost, and never put out much of an effort on defense.

You know what though, Raptors fans have a huge hate on for Alonzo Morning too. When he got traded to TO he went out over to Miami, practiced with them, demanded a buy out and refused to take anything less than his full contract for a buy out while having already negotiated a contract with Miami. That wasn't very cool either.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-22-2009, 03:01 PM
New York fans are ruthless, the turned on Ewing of all people. Want to know when they finally embraced him? When he was in MSG as a visitor/competitor.

You can boo Vince while hes on the court, but for **** sake appreciate what he did for the team. It should far outweigh what he did to your ****** management.

I agree here.

I still appreciate for what he has done for us but its fun to boo him when he is on the court.

Kakaroach
11-22-2009, 03:29 PM
I agree here.

I still appreciate for what he has done for us but its fun to boo him when he is on the court. :pity: I watched a little of the game earlier, and he did get booed every time he touched the ball. 5 years later...

Raps18-19 Champ
11-22-2009, 04:54 PM
:pity: I watched a little of the game earlier, and he did get booed every time he touched the ball. 5 years later...

He says he likes the boos.

:shrug:

ink
11-22-2009, 05:11 PM
He says he likes the boos.

:shrug:

That's what I've been saying. The Toronto fans are motivating the guy by booing him. Pretty pointless.

rabzouz 96
11-22-2009, 09:33 PM
Chronzie, you can't seriously LOL at the idea that T.O.'s front office DID put great players around Vince. Hakeem is a HOF and though he was on the decline it wasn't much different than the Cavs picking up O'Neal. They had an all-star center in Antonio Davis, a perenial rebounding leader and proven veteran in Charles Oakley, one of the best bench rebounders in Jerome Williams (he was among league leaders in rebounds-per minutes) and Keon Clark, who though he has had substance abuse problems since, was still one of the most efficient shot blockers in the league and like Jerome Williams was one of the best rebounders off the bench the league had that season. With the signing or Marc Jackson (another HOFer at point guard), Alvin Williams, a talented young point guard, and Mo Pete, the Raptors had a great roster, and they had a HOF coach. They put talent around VC. And Wilkens did an amazing job with that roster. The season after they lost in the second round they were like ten games out of the playoffs and WITHOUT VC they put on a huge win streak that got them into the playoffs (the Raptors ended up with a better record without VC that year under Wilken's guidance), and the season after when VC got injured again, WIlkens still pulled out 24 wins out of a team that had their core players miss over a total of 300 games while healthy teams the Cavs and Nuggets couldn't win even 20 games, and VC blamed Wilkens for the losses when he wasn't even on the court most of the season to help and then got pissed off because they didn't hire a guy that no other team has hired since?

Trust me, Raptors fans are over and don't give a rats @$$ about Carter, but we aren't interested in honouring him either. And yeah, our front office has made mistakes (Barngani? Firing Mitchell? Yeah). But they have generally drafted well (Camby, Damon Stoudemire, Bosh, McGrady) they listened to Carter when he wanted Wilkens gone. Carter just didn't want to admit that the team was limited so long as he was the "franchise player" because he just wasn't as good as Kobe, or Duncan or Garnett. He's a poor man's Kobe, hell, he's a poor man's McGrady, and no, teams do not have to listen to their players. There have been any number of times when players have made bad suggestions to their teams. Bottom line is VC obviously doesn't know ball like he thinks he did because he's still never been to the finals and as far as i remember has even got to the conference finals in his career.

No need to honour a guy that didn't put out an honest effort and passed the buck whenever his team lost, and never put out much of an effort on defense.

You know what though, Raptors fans have a huge hate on for Alonzo Morning too. When he got traded to TO he went out over to Miami, practiced with them, demanded a buy out and refused to take anything less than his full contract for a buy out while having already negotiated a contract with Miami. That wasn't very cool either.
one of the worst posts ive ever read.

Chronz
11-23-2009, 12:06 AM
character counts in TO. not defending the booing however, i've never understood fans who boo athletes.

As opposed to where exactly? In what cities does character not matter? If your being serious about it then I suppose thats an understandable stance, but it also means you show the same strength in character by not jeering him when others want to commend the history he built before management ruined it all.

Im starting to think its just in the nature of fans to boo the guys they see as their saviors than the guys who prevent it all from coming together. You cant boo your management in the same way, though Im sure several hardcore rap fans have tried.

The same character that you want to boo, wants to be honored. And its not without reason. Of all the early 00's stars, Vince has the most to gain this year.

Chronz
11-23-2009, 12:24 AM
Like I said, I don't really care about VC. Never really cared for him as a player. I definitely don't feel any "obligation" to him for anything. He got paid to do his job. He stopped doing his job at the end. Pretty simple really, and it's too uninteresting to get worked up about.

I've been posting for several years that people need to stop booing the guy. It looks bad on Toronto and it just feeds his ego anyway. I just can't be bothered to get annoyed with the big egos in this league. Let someone else get worked up about it. Better yet, cut the booing out so we can watch basketball. Too many soap operas in the NBA. And as soap operas go, this one is just plain weak all round. No one escapes with any dignity in a dumb situation like the Carter situation.
Thats just the type of fan you are, you wont get worked up over anything unless it comes with the ultimate in team success.

ink
11-23-2009, 12:37 AM
Thats just the type of fan you are, you wont get worked up over anything unless it comes with the ultimate in team success.

You are correct sir. :D

I still appreciate great players, but I like great players who know how to find the perfect balance between team and individual. To me, that's the ENTIRE POINT of team sport. If I want to watch individual athletes, I can watch tennis, skiing, track, swimming, or almost any other Olympic sport - which is awesome too.

ldc62
11-23-2009, 12:38 AM
Maybe we should cheer sarcastically (kinda like when the refs finally give your team a call) everytime Carter gets the ball. Wouldn't that be mean spirited and funny at the same time? Maybe it will throw him off a bit.

ink
11-23-2009, 12:43 AM
Maybe we should cheer sarcastically (kinda like when the refs finally give your team a call) everytime Carter gets the ball. Wouldn't that be mean spirited and funny at the same time? Maybe it will throw him off a bit.

It would be funny anyway. The change wouldn't hurt because what we're doing ain't working now anyway. Basically Raptors home fans are aiding and abetting the opposition with the booing. They should hand out the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot award to the biggest set of lungs at Raptors games for sheer obnoxiousness and dumb strategy.

Byronicle
11-23-2009, 01:00 AM
i hear he has a graduation ceremony to go to anyway. :smoking:

hahaa

Unruly Fan
11-23-2009, 01:44 AM
opps I meant to vote yes.

Chronz
11-23-2009, 01:49 AM
Chronzie, you can't seriously LOL at the idea that T.O.'s front office DID put great players around Vince. Hakeem is a HOF and though he was on the decline it wasn't much different than the Cavs picking up O'Neal.
Your either in denial, or misled. And the Cavs getting Shaq was only an admittance to past failure. They had a chance to add Shaq earlier, for a guy out the league right now, they failed and Dwight beat them up. Its also different from what teams knew about the players then, Shaq was coming off an All-star season and was seen as a key piece to a contender, whereas Hakeem wasnt even wanted by the team he built. Your logic is flawed



They had an all-star center in Antonio Davis,
Im going to save myself the brainfart and pass, everytime someone does one of these breakdowns they all come off the same. Let me guess your going to name all the best players hes ever played with, all the things they did good, with no context to how those weaknesses compared to Vinces contemporaries supporting cast.

Let me just make my point clear and see if you can disprove my claims instead. Ill put into proper perspective how good his teammates were in comparison to his peers. When his teammates were in their prime and how advanced in age they were when they got to the team.

Obviously most of these guys were good moves, what killed the franchise was the lack of better ones, the fact that their best moves were for veterans nearing the end, and multitude of hideous decisions. (in order from the direction of your post), what I hope you notice is how quickly those good moves faded, and how the lack of developing a core around him is what kept the team from competing even with a reasonably healthy Vince.

The Best Teammates Vince has ever played with:PLY:PRIME (RapYears)
Antonio Davis: 97-03 (99-04) +4PeakYears
The fact that this is his best teammate is sad, seriously that alone should end this discussion. But you'll see that soon enough...

Charles Oakley: 86-97 (98-01Age 35)+2SolidYears
Sign and trade in the Camby deal, they go on to make the Finals, Oakley plays 2 solid years far removed his prime, filled with lots of inefficient jumpshots. Trust me I remember those Raptor teams, Oakley hoisting away at such a careless rate for such poor efficiency held the team back offensively. Still a decent stop gap

Im going to take a break we can rehash this later..



Trust me, Raptors fans are over and don't give a rats @$$ about Carter, but we aren't interested in honouring him either.
Why do you insist in beating this home when it says nothing about the fact that there are those of you who would insist on disrespecting a man the franchise is trying to honor. If it was just a matter of you guys not wanting to honor him there would be no problem. But its more than that, its wanting to hold a grudge over circumstances beyond your control to which you have no reasonable amount of information about.


And yeah, our front office has made mistakes (Barngani? Firing Mitchell? Yeah). But they have generally drafted well (Camby, Damon Stoudemire, Bosh, McGrady)
You do realize the man who your crediting for drafting was the same guy who is renowned for being the WORST GM OF ALL TIME. Great way to get your point across. You know your in for a losing situation when your argument consists of, hey atleast we had Isiah Thomas running things.

END POINT.

Draft Picks proceeding Vince's arrival:
99: Essentially 4 GOOD years from Antonio Davis
Aleksander Radawhotheheckski
00: Mo Pete (Decent Rotational player)
01: Michael Bradley (Bonafide Bum) waived in year 3
02: Basically 29 games from Lindsey Hunter and a season of Michael Curry

By this point, your past the stage where you could help your marquee player compete through the draft. Year 4 youve either helped build him a good cast or you havent, so any move done from here is more about the future. But for the sake of pleasantries lets continue with their draft choice during Vinces tenure.

03: Chris Bosh ( A Teenager, years away from being able to help Vince)
04: Rafa

Even after Vince left, they continued to miss out on the draft.

Yea so basically you were wrong, they never drafted well, considering the core that should have been around for Vince was lost. Thats not to say its all Toronto's fault, its only meant to explain why it was so hard for Vince to keep Toronto afloat. The good players they drafted to grow with Vince left and the team got nothing in return, and because Vince was surrounded by win now Vets and his own individual brilliance, what the team drafted thereafter was either a role player or a bust. Though what was especially damning was their bad choices in lottery picks.


they listened to Carter when he wanted Wilkens gone. Carter just didn't want to admit that the team was limited so long as he was the "franchise player" because he just wasn't as good as Kobe, or Duncan or Garnett. He's a poor man's Kobe, hell, he's a poor man's McGrady,
Your right on the part that hes not on their level but this business of not being a franchise player or not has nothing to do with it. Basketball isnt some mythical sport where the teams relative success hinges on who your cornerstone is, what matters most is who you have around your best player. Having Vince may not have been as fortunate as having Tmac, Kobe, or KG, but he wasnt a bad consolation, what was horrible was what management expected him to win and remain effective with. Basically because Vince wasnt a Kobe or a KG, you have to surround him with players who would be considered upgrades on his peers teams.


and no, teams do not have to listen to their players.
Then you havent been paying attention to the history of the NBA, its always been a stars league. They have more pull than you think, and honestly I dont know where you get off making these claims. You dont think the Raptors got Hedo with Bosh in mind?


There have been any number of times when players have made bad suggestions to their teams. Bottom line is VC obviously doesn't know ball like he thinks he did because he's still never been to the finals and as far as i remember has even got to the conference finals in his career.
Blanket statement, your still missing the point. Teams have to respect their players opinion because its their legacy on the line as well, they have a say in the matter, and its something teams will bend over backwards to prove when free agency pops up.

Chronz
11-23-2009, 01:51 AM
You are correct sir. :D

I still appreciate great players, but I like great players who know how to find the perfect balance between team and individual. To me, that's the ENTIRE POINT of team sport. If I want to watch individual athletes, I can watch tennis, skiing, track, swimming, or almost any other Olympic sport - which is awesome too.

Considering Vince is one of the least selfish stars, among its highest IQ in terms of passing, I dont agree with your standards as to what consitutes a perfect balance. Vince found that niche just fine and always carried as big of a load as his team needed from him. Put it this way, do you think Kobe underwent any sort of miraculous transformation into a team player on route to a chip?

ink
11-23-2009, 02:30 AM
Put it this way, do you think Kobe underwent any sort of miraculous transformation into a team player on route to a chip?

Yes.

Chronz
11-23-2009, 02:46 AM
Yea he trusted his teammates more right

Raph12
11-23-2009, 03:01 AM
Stuff

In your list of cliches within your sig, when you say 'Kobe suddenly got "it", and won a title'... if "it" means Gasol then it's good in my book.

GodsSon
11-23-2009, 01:01 PM
there's an article in a Toronto newspaper today that suggests we should only honour VC after he retires, and AFTER he apologizes to the fan base for alienating them...sounds fair to me

sofargone
11-23-2009, 01:40 PM
Hes the biggest villain in the history of the raptors. the fans wouldnt welcome him so i think it was a good decision on his part to decline

*Superman*
11-23-2009, 03:54 PM
there's an article in a Toronto newspaper today that suggests we should only honour VC after he retires, and AFTER he apologizes to the fan base for alienating them...sounds fair to me


He shouldn't have to apologize for nothing. You guys act like he was the only player ever to quit on a team get over it.

pebloemer
11-23-2009, 04:05 PM
He shouldn't have to apologize for nothing. You guys act like he was the only player ever to quit on a team get over it.

You are right, no he shouldn't. I don't think the article completely stated he should apologize, just that it would be better recieved by the fan base if he apologized. And I agree with that point. That being said, he seems to have no difficulties playing in Toronto amongst the "boo's." He doesn't need to apologize and I don't think it is on his mind to. Basketball is a business.

I do think the Raptor's should honour his contributions to the franchise, but 15 years is a stupid marker for it. Not sure what makes 15 so special. They should wait for 25 years or something. Vince will be retired then and then it would seem more fitting.

GodsSon
11-23-2009, 04:21 PM
He shouldn't have to apologize for nothing. You guys act like he was the only player ever to quit on a team get over it.

When you think of Vince Carter, you think of him in a Raptor jersey as his biggest career accomplishments came with our franchise; so yes he should be honoured...with that said, he should also have the maturity to apologize to the fans that placed him on a pedestal as prince of the city, only to have him openly admit he betrayed those fans by not giving 100%...he did this to himself, and only he can rectify the situation, and an apology would be a good start

faridk89
11-23-2009, 04:31 PM
I hear he has a graduation ceremony to go to anyway. :smoking:

hahaha i remember that...**** this dude he gets booed like an animal when he's here does he really want to be honored while thousands of people scream and make fun of him?

Mikeleafs
11-23-2009, 05:04 PM
I hear he has a graduation ceremony to go to anyway. :smoking:

LOOOOL!!

Its ok he doesnt deserve it anyway! LOL

amoore87
11-23-2009, 05:30 PM
who was toronto befor air carter?!?!

macc
11-23-2009, 06:01 PM
Chronz. Good job on your posts man. Well thought out. I was gonna quote you but there were too many great posts to quote. Soooo


Chronz = 1 -everyone who debated with him = 0


To add onto one of Chronz points about the Raps not doing enough to keep him is somthing I completely agree with. Vince goes to New Jersey, they get Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson to compliment him. Obviously didn't get them a championship but at least it showed New Jersey was willing to make moves to make them contenders. Somthing the Raptors weren't doing.

I'm not going to pretend to know the situation with Vince and the Raptors, I only know that the Raptors weren't getting better so Vince left. Rap fans may call him a baby and what not and thats their opinion. Though if you do think that you should at least give him the benefit of the doubt for growing up and handling the situation the way he did in New Jersey. New Jersey realized they weren't going to win it with an aging Kidd and Jefferson so they went right into rebuilding mode right after Vince signed a big contract. Vince didn't complain at all. Normally a player of his calibur on the downside of their career would of demanded a trade to a contender when realizing his franchise decided to rebuild. Vince put in work, made the other players around him better and when he got traded, he left, and everything was respectful on each side. Nets fans from what I've seen still love and respect him. Carter leaves and New Jersey still has yet to win a game.....but that's a different topic

My main point in this is why hold a grudge on how someone acted when they were young? At least see that he has grown up and handled a similiar situation very classy. I respect that.

j-mart
11-23-2009, 07:03 PM
You sign a contract, you honour it. I'm so tired of guys like Carter who demand trades or to be released (Alonzo Mourning). If Bosh leaves at the end of his contract, I will applaud him when he returns in a visitors uniform because he will have fulfilled his contractual obligation.

marvILLous
11-23-2009, 07:15 PM
To add onto one of Chronz points about the Raps not doing enough to keep him is somthing I completely agree with. Vince goes to New Jersey, they get Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson to compliment him. Obviously didn't get them a championship but at least it showed New Jersey was willing to make moves to make them contenders. Somthing the Raptors weren't doing.


lol.. you do know that kidd and rj were already in new jersey when vc was traded there right? vc was brought in to compliment kidd and rj.. not the other way around

just saying, get your facts straight

*Superman*
11-23-2009, 07:27 PM
When you think of Vince Carter, you think of him in a Raptor jersey as his biggest career accomplishments came with our franchise; so yes he should be honoured...with that said, he should also have the maturity to apologize to the fans that placed him on a pedestal as prince of the city, only to have him openly admit he betrayed those fans by not giving 100%...he did this to himself, and only he can rectify the situation, and an apology would be a good start

It's been 5 years since he was traded, after those 5 years he still hears boo's every-time he touches the ball. If you want him to act mature, it should have started with your fans stopping the boos a long time ago. I just think the boos are Toronto's way of saying how much they love him, I mean why else would they waste so much breath as to boo him every-time.

All in all, nobody can go back and change the past. As long as he wins a ring I don't think he would even look back at Toronto.

Mikeleafs
11-23-2009, 11:04 PM
Toronto put VC on the map NOT the other way around! Wince was trained by our coaching staff, protected by guys like Oakley and Willis and everything was given to him on a silver platter while he was here. Even his mommy got 1st class service. If it wasn't for the Raps he would have started his career playing in Washington and probably ended up like Gilbert! An injury prone high paid whining nobody... LOL

Vince is an unappreciative little ***** who whines and cries that's what I'll remember most about him!

King P
11-23-2009, 11:40 PM
Toronto put VC on the map NOT the other way around! Wince was trained by our coaching staff, protected by guys like Oakley and Willis and everything was given to him on a silver platter while he was here. Even his mommy got 1st class service. If it wasn't for the Raps he would have started his career playing in Washington and probably ended up like Gilbert! An injury prone high paid whining nobody... LOL

Vince is an unappreciative little ***** who whines and cries that's what I'll remember most about him!
1st of all, he was drafted by Golden State.
Your franchise was nothing before Vince came along. He single handedly put fans in those seats. You act like Vince is the only person who has whined and cried. And it was because your crappy team wasnt doing anything, and Vince was sick of it. You didnt hear any whining and crying when he came to the Nets did you? I thought so.

ThuglifeJ
11-24-2009, 12:38 AM
Vince is the only reason Toronto is still a team. You've got to be ******** me if you think Toronto would be anything other than a ****** rotting team where half the seats were only filled at each game, and never even reaching the playoffs.

VC did so much for the team AND the community, and to say Toronto would be where it's at without him is ridiculous. VC was easily one of the most popular players in the league, record breaking all star votes that one year. Who would watch Toronto if it wasnt for Vinsanity..


And I'm about to post an eye opening interview that VC had just today about EVERYTHING. Many will be surprised at what really happened.

Dont hate VC becuz your team is boring as **** now, and about to lose Bosh, and is just a foreign player team now.

GodsSon
11-24-2009, 12:49 AM
Vince is the only reason Toronto is still a team. You've got to be ******** me if you think Toronto would be anything other than a ****** rotting team where half the seats were only filled at each game, and never even reaching the playoffs.

VC did so much for the team AND the community, and to say Toronto would be where it's at without him is ridiculous. VC was easily one of the most popular players in the league, record breaking all star votes that one year. Who would watch Toronto if it wasnt for Vinsanity..


And I'm about to post an eye opening interview that VC had just today about EVERYTHING. Many will be surprised at what really happened.

Dont hate VC becuz your team is boring as **** now, and about to lose Bosh, and is just a foreign player team now.

its funny how you criticize the Raptors yet fail to look in the mirror...who cares about Chicago since MJ retired? your team has been irrelevant for what? 11 years now?...and you Bulls fans still have delusional visions of grandeur as though any prized FA would want to sign with you lol; face it, your team is no better off then Toronto (who just so happens to have a player you guys salivate over :) )...as for VC, if you think the Raptors or Toronto needed him to gain fan support within Toronto then you're crazy, all he did was make us bigger in the US (as if that matters); and yet, even after his departure we remain top 10 in NBA attendance...my advice to you is either gain some background knowledge on the situation and basketball in Toronto period, or come back in 3 years when you turn 15

Mikeleafs
11-24-2009, 10:27 AM
All VC did was dunk the ball, that is it! Thats the only reason he became so popular.

Plus, Toronto had no trouble filling seats even with mighty mouse as our franchise player.

I hate players who whine and cry about how their team isnt doing enough to win... Suck it up and be a pro! If not, you don't deserve to be in the league. Perfect examples are VC, S. Jackson, and Kobe... but Kobe SUCKED IT UP! AND MADE IT WORK WITH WHAT HE HAD!

Mikeleafs
11-24-2009, 10:30 AM
And to answer the Poll Question: Smart move on Carter's part?

Ofcourse it was! It was the best thing for HIM because he's a selfish brat. He will never apologize and admit to his mistakes to the city and fans who put him on the map.

Bob_at_york
11-24-2009, 10:39 AM
Your franchise was nothing before Vince came along. He single handedly put fans in those seats.
I already had my seats but he did get the bandwagon fans to show up that is true.


You act like Vince is the only person who has whined and cried. And it was because your crappy team wasnt doing anything, and Vince was sick of it. You didnt hear any whining and crying when he came to the Nets did you? I thought so.
But we had a crappy team because of Vince. Vince was involved in FA decisions (See Milt Palacio) and as the franchise player, the team can only go as far as he would lead them and he wasn't leading them anywhere.

*Superman*
11-24-2009, 10:46 AM
All VC did was dunk the ball, that is it! Thats the only reason he became so popular.

Plus, Toronto had no trouble filling seats even with mighty mouse as our franchise player.

I hate players who whine and cry about how their team isnt doing enough to win... Suck it up and be a pro! If not, you don't deserve to be in the league. Perfect examples are VC, S. Jackson, and Kobe... but Kobe SUCKED IT UP! AND MADE IT WORK WITH WHAT HE HAD!

Im guessing Pau was always on the team. :rolleyes: