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Jimmy Shine
11-18-2009, 06:35 PM
Well, congrats to a guy we ran out of town, and deservedly so. I guess a good horse can make anyone a better jockey.

cre0530
11-18-2009, 10:42 PM
Just goes to show you that even a very good manager can't do much when the rest of the organization is 2nd rate.

burgh_fan66
11-19-2009, 12:41 AM
Well, congrats to a guy we ran out of town, and deservedly so. I guess a good horse can make anyone a better jockey.

Congrats to Tracy. He had no chance with the Pirates, the talent wasn't there true ,but he does his best job coaching vets not young players.


Just goes to show you that even a very good manager can't do much when the rest of the organization is 2nd rate.

May I ask why you post on a Pirate message board if everything you have to say is negative. Yes this team isn't stellar but it is slowly ever so slowly headed in the right direction. If you despise the team please just show your disgust by not posting.

dashripdot
11-19-2009, 09:37 AM
Well, congrats to a guy we ran out of town, and deservedly so. I guess a good horse can make anyone a better jockey.

In the case of the Pirates team Tracey had, the horse only had 3 good legs when he got on it. This year its only got 1 or 2. Put it (and its fans) out of its misery. Gotta feel bad for Russell. He gets to suffer for the sins of the owner and front office. You know he'll be long gone before the Pirates can compete, much less contend.

cre0530
11-21-2009, 08:49 AM
No sympathy for Russell he knew when he put in the low bid he'd be going in as mr. baseballs yes man and his only job would be to hand in the lineup card neil fills out for him.

cre0530
11-21-2009, 08:56 AM
Congrats to Tracy. He had no chance with the Pirates, the talent wasn't there true ,but he does his best job coaching vets not young players.



May I ask why you post on a Pirate message board if everything you have to say is negative. Yes this team isn't stellar but it is slowly ever so slowly headed in the right direction. If you despise the team please just show your disgust by not posting.

You can ask.

I've rooted for the pirates since 60 and know when the FO is trying to win and when they are lying to the fans. I watched Bonifay and Littlefield begin the process of destroying this team and as bad as they were huntington is worse. Neil has done in 2 years what Bonifay and Littlefield couldn't do in 8 he made the pirates the lowest paid team in baseball so devoid of talent we couldn't compete in AAA. So if you believe that under huntington the pirates are improving maybe you should try to learn a little about baseball.

MooseWithFleas
11-21-2009, 02:07 PM
You can ask.

I've rooted for the pirates since 60 and know when the FO is trying to win and when they are lying to the fans. I watched Bonifay and Littlefield begin the process of destroying this team and as bad as they were huntington is worse. Neil has done in 2 years what Bonifay and Littlefield couldn't do in 8 he made the pirates the lowest paid team in baseball so devoid of talent we couldn't compete in AAA. So if you believe that under huntington the pirates are improving maybe you should try to learn a little about baseball.

You are flat out wrong. The team traded pieces that would no longer be here by the time the team was ready to win (est. 2012). So they traded them while they still had value rather than letting them walk as FA's. In 2-3 years, this team WILL be good.

dashripdot
11-23-2009, 09:10 AM
You are flat out wrong. The team traded pieces that would no longer be here by the time the team was ready to win (est. 2012). So they traded them while they still had value rather than letting them walk as FA's. In 2-3 years, this team WILL be good.

2012? What was the e.t.a. for a winning team the first three times they dismantled the roster? By the way, good planning for 2012. The Pirates front office apparently never consulted he Mayan calendar before setting their sights on the end of the world! Just kidding. Sort of.

MooseWithFleas
11-23-2009, 02:24 PM
^ They never did the dismantling properly nor efficiently. They simply dismantled it slowly, while keeping other parts around, which proved ineffective. The team is committed to fully rebuilding now. Their team is completely cost efficient and after a year or two of player development, the team will be able to acquire a good free agent or two. Imagine a team centered around McCutchen, Alvarez, Sanchez, Lincoln, and Tabata, all at dirt cheap prices, with room to spend on FA's.

Now if they don't end up spending the freed up money, then you can call them out and tell them they are being cheap *** losers.

dashripdot
11-23-2009, 03:05 PM
No point in waiting. Nutting is not going to spend on keeping those players you mention once they hit arbitration or free agency. He's building a culture of taking the cheap way out and pocketing the central fund and revenue sharing money. He's taking corporate welfare from MLB. Many people complain about the lack of a salary cap in MLB, but only the players complain about the lack of a salary floor; it's clear that the Pirates are likely to have a roster budget of not much more than one year of A-Rod's salary. Too many teams are getting away with revenue sharing $ and putting a poor product on the field. I suppose the Pirates lead the way in one area, at least.

dashripdot
11-23-2009, 03:15 PM
Your theory also assumes that they have chosen players wisely. Who did they pass on to get Moskos? A bevy of excellent prospects who were more expensive to sign. So what? You finish last, you gotta shell out some money to get better. I agree on McCutchen and Alvarez and Lincoln, and I'm hopeful on Tabata, but much of what they got in return for their best players over the last several years was junk. Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez? When he was only making $6 mil? They let go of Bay when he was still a bargain (I know he was unlikely to re-sign, but that's because the front office alienated him with their cheapness in not getting him some teammates). I don't see their vision in all of this unless it's to go as cheap as possible without regard for the talent level to contend. As bad as the Pirates were in September 2009, they're going to be that bad all season long in 2010 and likely 2011.

Jimmy Shine
11-24-2009, 08:53 PM
You realize, I hope, that some of the blunders you mention came under Littlefields watch (Moskos, Ramirez), and your opinion on why Bay was unlikely to re-sign is borderline delusional.

That said, I have no faith that Nutting is committed to winning.

MooseWithFleas
11-24-2009, 09:16 PM
^ I wouldn't doubt that, but what I am saying is that Huntington is going to do the best damn job he can with the limited pay roll he has. And with the set of circumstances he is working on, I think he is doing a damn fine job. The team is going have a minuscule payroll in 2010 and once the young guys have developed he will have the money to make 1 or 2 decent splashes in the free agent market.

Jimmy Shine
11-24-2009, 09:22 PM
^ I wouldn't doubt that, but what I am saying is that Huntington is going to do the best damn job he can with the limited pay roll he has. And with the set of circumstances he is working on, I think he is doing a damn fine job. The team is going have a minuscule payroll in 2010 and once the young guys have developed he will have the money to make 1 or 2 decent splashes in the free agent market.

Well, after DL anyone would look great. But your point is reasonable; right now NH seems to be running a decent race with the lead boots hes forced to wear.

My problems with Nutting, first and last.

MooseWithFleas
11-24-2009, 09:44 PM
Hard not to have issue with ownership after 17 penny pinching losing seasons. However, Nutting has only been principal owner of the Pirates since 2007 though so I will reserve judgement until 2012 or 2013 when the young talent has developed and the team needs to make FA acquisitions and expand the payroll to get to the next level. I am just hoping that the majority of the young talent succeeds.

Jimmy Shine
11-24-2009, 09:56 PM
Nutting Jr became Chairman of the Board in 2003. Because the Bucs are a private concern, there seems to be no definitive info on when the Nutting family became plurality owners. But in business, its generally accepted that anyone voted in as Chairman has the votes to control the Board and the purse strings. So I wouldnt let Nutting skate. Dumping Kevin was PR.

MooseWithFleas
11-24-2009, 10:06 PM
Fair enough. You know a lot more about the management of the Pirates then I do :). I just wiki'd to get a sense of the recent Pirates ownership history.

dashripdot
11-25-2009, 10:07 AM
You realize, I hope, that some of the blunders you mention came under Littlefields watch (Moskos, Ramirez), and your opinion on why Bay was unlikely to re-sign is borderline delusional.

That said, I have no faith that Nutting is committed to winning.

Absolutely. I said "front office" and mentioned no one by name. You realize, of course, from whom all of these people took/take their marching orders on the budget issue and how to spend it? Ownership. Huntington and Coonelly have no more discretion on spending than did Littlefield. The only thing I'm delusional about is the hope that the ship can be righted in the next decade. The only reason I care (I'm a Reds fan, not a Pirate fan) is that the one thing the organization did correctly was getting the best stadium in baseball built. I enjoy going to games there. Unfortunately, Nutting takes a dump in it everytime this roster takes the field.

Spending is not going up. Gate revenue is not going up, but that's only one part of the equation of revenue. Sure, they spent some on the Dominican academy, but you can build that complex in the Dominican for pennies on even the deflated US dollar. Why did such a no-brainer take so long to get done?