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View Full Version : Is Mariano Rivera the greatest closer ever?



King P
11-05-2009, 12:45 AM
Do you think that Marino Rivera is the greatest closer of all time? Explain why or why not.

Boston-Born
11-05-2009, 12:55 AM
yes

Hustla23
11-05-2009, 12:56 AM
Are you serious?

Does this even need an explanation?

Not even close.

carson005
11-05-2009, 12:56 AM
duh

JWalk126
11-05-2009, 12:58 AM
probably

iggypop123
11-05-2009, 12:58 AM
stupid.

King P
11-05-2009, 01:00 AM
I ask because I said that today, and people looked at me like I was crazy. They was like "no freaking way, Rollie Fingers & Dennis Eckersley are soo much better".

Just wanted to see what other people thought.

CostanzaNumba0
11-05-2009, 01:00 AM
Is this even a conversation?

DeadMemories
11-05-2009, 01:02 AM
Yes. Gagne a close 2nd tho

ryguy553
11-05-2009, 01:03 AM
I ask because I said that today, and people looked at me like I was crazy. They was like "no freaking way, Rollie Fingers & Dennis Eckersley are soo much better".

Just wanted to see what other people thought.

Are you sure those people said that with a straight face? Mo and it isn't close. When he went in the game I knew the yankees won the world series already. He's that kind of closer, you are almost shocked when he doesn't succeed.

29$JerZ
11-05-2009, 01:03 AM
Yes

ShinobiNYC
11-05-2009, 01:06 AM
Yes. Gagne a close 2nd tho

:rolleyes:

King P
11-05-2009, 01:08 AM
Are you sure those people said that with a straight face? Mo and it isn't close. When he went in the game I knew the yankees won the world series already. He's that kind of closer, you are almost shocked when he doesn't succeed.
Yea, they were dead serious. I heard, Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, Dennis Eckersley, & Rollie Fingers all being better than Mo. I couldnt help but shake my head.

Red_Sox_89
11-05-2009, 01:08 AM
Very close for me between Dennis Eckersley and Mo. In 1990, Dennis had more saves than runners on base... That's an UNBELIEVABLE stat. Career 1.16 WHIP, which is a little inaccurate since the first half of his career he was a starter. He had a 5 year span in which his WHIP was below 1, including back to back seasons with a .61.

Now onto Mo... wow, what to say about this guy. One of 2 pitchers with more than 500 career saves (a pointless stat usually, but when the number is higher than 500 you know the guys good), career 2.25 ERA, over 1000 strikeouts compared to 256 walks, and the .77 ERA in the postseason, which is what puts him above the rest.

So after that, yes, Mo is the greatest closer of all time, and no one will ever take that away from him in my opinion. Absolutely amazing pitches, with no fear to throw any pitch in any count. He gets my vote, as well as any educated baseball fan's.

skierdude44
11-05-2009, 01:10 AM
Yes.

GottaBelieve
11-05-2009, 01:11 AM
Do fat kids like cake?

CostanzaNumba0
11-05-2009, 01:14 AM
not only is he the best closer, hes been the most important PLAYER in baseball for the last 20 years

jim51990
11-05-2009, 01:22 AM
im a sox fan and even i would say how is it not obvious

odiz
11-05-2009, 01:25 AM
Easily. I read an article the other day that argued he was the best pitcher of all time. I don't agree with that but I think you could make a case for it.

Tragedy
11-05-2009, 01:32 AM
No explanation needed.

The answer is yes.

ryguy553
11-05-2009, 01:34 AM
not only is he the best closer, hes been the most important PLAYER in baseball for the last 20 years

That might be pushing it. Closers can never really be as important logically as everyday players or starting pitchers that go 7/8 innings. He closes the fort down, but there are more important impactful players.

NYY NYJ NYK
11-05-2009, 01:39 AM
Yes

GiantMetKnick
11-05-2009, 01:40 AM
i agree with ryguy.

i'm of the moneyball philosophy that no matter how effective a closer is, his impact is limited by the mere fact that he is only pitching, at most, two innings.

BLooDShoT_GrK
11-05-2009, 10:51 AM
i agree with ryguy.

i'm of the moneyball philosophy that no matter how effective a closer is, his impact is limited by the mere fact that he is only pitching, at most, two innings.

Yeah the most important innings, the highest pressure innings. If it wasn't for Mo my Yankees wouldnt be anywhere close to what they are today. He is the greatest there is, ever was, and will ever be.

yanks19791024
11-05-2009, 12:18 PM
No doubt

GordonGecko
11-05-2009, 12:19 PM
Do fat kids like cake?

no they like McDonalds

http://blog.bioethics.net/fat-kid.jpg

Tragedy
11-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Yeah the most important innings, the highest pressure innings. If it wasn't for Mo my Yankees wouldnt be anywhere close to what they are today. He is the greatest there is, ever was, and will ever be.
Well, there's no doubt that he's the greatest there ever was and is today - But how can you say that no one will be as good if not better than him in the future? It's not impossible.

bagwell368
11-07-2009, 08:59 PM
i agree with ryguy.

i'm of the moneyball philosophy that no matter how effective a closer is, his impact is limited by the mere fact that he is only pitching, at most, two innings.

yeah but since 1988 when the RP/closer 6/7 IP SP got rolling for real, you DO need that key relief guy or two. The man has over 1000 IP, and has an ERA+ of around 200, which is gigantic.

The question was closer, and closer or even relief guy, he blasts all of them. You might have a Mike Marshall here or a Goose Gossage there with a big year or three, but this guys entire career minus a few innings early, and a weak year a few years ago its a highlight film.

My all time pen has: Mariano, Wagner, Henke, Wetteland in it, and I know who the #1 is.

bartoron
11-07-2009, 09:15 PM
Mariano Rivera is the greatest closer of all time.

End of story.

bagwell368
11-08-2009, 10:46 PM
not only is he the best closer, hes been the most important PLAYER in baseball for the last 20 years

nonsense, his impact on winning games isn't even in the top 25 over the past 20 years.

however, in his role, he is the best, that counts for a lot, is worth a lot, but there are limits - like common sense, like baseball stats such as WAR. I'd take him - but on an 81-81 team (average in all ways) you add Clemens, Bonds, RJ, Maddux, Pujols, Manny, AROD, Thome, Vlad, Chipper, Sheffield, Pedro, Smoltz, Glavine, Pettite, and probably 20 more that have played in the last 20 years, and guess what the team wins more game with the other games then Mariano, and over the course of years just like Marino.

J4KOP99
11-08-2009, 11:40 PM
He is absolutely the best but every once in a while you will find some genius who pulls some crazy stats out of his *** to try and prove his theory on why Mariano is not the greatest.

nr19
11-09-2009, 01:51 AM
Mariano is by far the greatest closer ever. Like Global warming the debate is over.

bagwell368
11-09-2009, 12:22 PM
He is absolutely the best but every once in a while you will find some genius who pulls some crazy stats out of his *** to try and prove his theory on why Mariano is not the greatest.

Well I'm probably one the bigger stat "geniuses" around and as for modern closers - since 1987 - he's the clear answer. It's possible that one of the longer RP's might give him a good fight. Off the top of my head the advantage Hoyt Wilhelm has in innings, wins, longevity - might come close. But most of his 227 saves were multi innings jobs, so the way he was used was different, and he was a good starter for a few years too, unlike Rivera who sucked pretty bad in '95 when he was used that way - not that that short sample size can be used against him too much. But nobody can claim (like it has been) that he would be a great SP from that sample.

VenezuelanMet
11-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Well I'm probably one the bigger stat "geniuses" around and as for modern closers - since 1987 - he's the clear answer. It's possible that one of the longer RP's might give him a good fight. Off the top of my head the advantage Hoyt Wilhelm has in innings, wins, longevity - might come close. But most of his 227 saves were multi innings jobs, so the way he was used was different, and he was a good starter for a few years too, unlike Rivera who sucked pretty bad in '95 when he was used that way - not that that short sample size can be used against him too much. But nobody can claim (like it has been) that he would be a great SP from that sample.

This is my opinion as well, he's undoubtly the best of the new era of throwing only 1 inning as a closer but I have a hard time putting him above relievers like Goose Gossage, or Fingers.
Nothing against him is just that I HATE the way bullpens are used in this era.

I mean check out 1984 Willie Hernandez's season, we need relievers to be like that again.

marques724
11-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Is a frog's *** water tight.

bagwell368
11-09-2009, 09:27 PM
This is my opinion as well, he's undoubtly the best of the new era of throwing only 1 inning as a closer but I have a hard time putting him above relievers like Goose Gossage, or Fingers.
Nothing against him is just that I HATE the way bullpens are used in this era.

I mean check out 1984 Willie Hernandez's season, we need relievers to be like that again.

Well the problem with that - and Marshall etc. is that they toasted out their arms and didn't last. The worse factor is the L-R matchup thing. There are few lefty RP that can righties out, so they come in for one batter, etc. and so on.

Dave Duncan and LaRussa are about as smart as two guys that ever came down the pike in this game, but it is boring as heck to watch. Still all the rule changes since the start of 1969 favor hitters, I guess they have to have some way to fight back.

Confusion
11-11-2009, 03:37 AM
One of them, but he's the best active one.

heathonater
01-23-2010, 11:31 PM
yes. rivera slams the door shut in the 9th inning better than anyone else. combined with his postseason performances, he is clearly the best ever.

Zep
01-24-2010, 01:17 PM
Gotta go to Mo.

p eter
01-24-2010, 02:47 PM
This is stupid Mo is one of the greatest closers but he isnt. Rollie Fingers has 200 Saves in which he pitched 2 or more innings. Mo doesnt ever pitch more than one. So oviosly Rollie is better.

JDMac80
01-24-2010, 07:09 PM
how is this even still a legit question? if you think he's not #1 you're an idiot. if you question it you're an idiot. he might even be #2 also

p eter
01-24-2010, 08:56 PM
He's not the best. Fingers is. Mo cant pitch two innings. He's never pitched more than one. Half of Fingers saves he pitched two innings or more. Most of the time more. You cant say that with Mo. Mo is definetly number two on the list of closers. Fingers though beats him out.Mo can pitch longer but i mean if your pitching an inning every single start you would too.Mo only pitched over 100 innings once.Fingers has eleven times.So Fingers has 700 hundred more innings pitched.He only pitched two more seasons.So oviously Fingers is better.

smm9127
01-24-2010, 10:07 PM
Damn, Mo has never pitched more than one inning? That's news to me. I guess during the mutiple times this postseason he had multiple inning saves, my eyes were just deceiving me.

JDMac80
01-24-2010, 10:32 PM
He's not the best. Fingers is. Mo cant pitch two innings. He's never pitched more than one. Half of Fingers saves he pitched two innings or more. Most of the time more. You cant say that with Mo. Mo is definetly number two on the list of closers. Fingers though beats him out.Mo can pitch longer but i mean if your pitching an inning every single start you would too.Mo only pitched over 100 innings once.Fingers has eleven times.So Fingers has 700 hundred more innings pitched.He only pitched two more seasons.So oviously Fingers is better.

please refer to my post directly above yours to see where you and this lame quote stand

JDMac80
01-24-2010, 10:49 PM
Mo cant pitch two innings. He's never pitched more than one.

After a full season, he pitched three 2+ inning saves this past postseason. That includes one where he came in in the 7th and another that closed out LAA. Your simply wrong as you make your assumptions.

The role of the closer has changed so your innings argument is as inaccurate as comparing HR totals from players in the 50's vs the 90's-00's.

p eter
01-24-2010, 11:10 PM
Mo just isnt cant you people deal with that.Rollie Fingers is better Mo is the best modern day guy hes as good as fingers.Why dont we hear your stats what are you to stupid to think of them or just cant deal with the fact that he is.

p eter
01-24-2010, 11:43 PM
Why did you say 50's vs the 90's-00's when Fingers played in the 70's. Doesnt make any sense. And im not talking about the post season im talking about the entire season. Jack Morris was known as one of the most clutch post season pitchers in his decade. Would you say he was the greatest pitcher in the eighty's.

bagwell368
01-25-2010, 12:18 AM
Why did you say 50's vs the 90's-00's when Fingers played in the 70's. Doesnt make any sense. And im not talking about the post season im talking about the entire season. Jack Morris was known as one of the most clutch post season pitchers in his decade. Would you say he was the greatest pitcher in the eighty's.

He said HR hitters from the 50's - it's called a comparison to make a point. I saw Fingers and Mo a lot. Fingers doesn't crack my top 5 RP's.

Mo" 202 ERA+ in 1090 IP; Fingers 119 ERA+ in 1701 IP

So, Mo is 102% better then average and Fingers is 19% better then average

Fingers saved 115 runs above average in his 1701 IP
Rivera saved 347 runs above average in his 1090 IP

Fingers WPA 10.67
Rivera WPA 48.85
*WPA win probabilty above average

Fingers BS%: 76%
Rivera BS%: 89%

Mo is the best, I saw them, and you didn't see Fingers. He had 3 very good years, Rivera has had great years 13 of his last 14 years.

Not even close.

p eter
01-25-2010, 02:57 AM
I disagree , but i do respect your opinion a lot. You have been very kind to me on this blog sight.Im not just looking at my own stats and oppinion.Theirs this one guy who takes everything in consideration.He takes stats , the era they played in , ball parks , league average , everything. Stats that you wouldnt evan think of. Ill ask my dad about the book.You might wanna read it. Not because im trying to make a point. But you seem like a man who likes to learn more things about baseball. This guy has a lot of facts about everybody besides negro league players. He actually digs in to old books and interviews about players. And he takes ever stat possible into consideration.You might like it as a man who seems to like the game.He says the greatest players of all time for waht they did for their team just a suggestion.

Saint Brian
01-25-2010, 06:35 AM
In Spanish, Mariano Rivera means greatest closer ever.

JTorre4Prez
01-25-2010, 11:06 AM
In Spanish, Mariano Rivera means greatest closer ever.

Why does this sound like a chuck norris joke

JDMac80
01-26-2010, 12:07 AM
I was only comparing two eras where the stat (HRs) was vastly different. Fine, how about Mike Schmidt vs Jim Thome. Hall of fame, feared power hitter vs a meathead in the steroid era. You talk about some book that compares eras. Mo has better per-inning numbers in a pro-hitters era. Listen to what the batters who faced these guys said about them. Or maybe the guys on their teams and how comfortable they felt handing their guy the lead. Who is more convincing.

You said he didnt throw any 2 inning games this year. The post season is this year. So was the game vs Minn on 5/16 where he threw 2 innings. With the evolution of the role of the reliever, there arent any regular season games worth wearing down a reliever. 2 innings today and his ability to throw on the next day or two is adjusted.

Mo has given up only 60 HRs in his career, thats 4 per season. He rarely makes mistakes. HRs usually lose games for closers. That helps to speak to his clutch-ness.

Fingers, 3 seasons under 2.00 era. Mo, a 2 season, 3 season, and 4 season streak of under 2.00 era; all separate streaks. There is a career stat you can chew on.

ShinobiNYC
01-26-2010, 12:13 PM
It's Mo followed closely by Hoffman then Eckersley....I don't get why there is so much debate in this.

bagwell368
01-26-2010, 12:52 PM
It's Mo followed closely by Hoffman then Eckersley....I don't get why there is so much debate in this.

Well... like breaking apart pre NFL merger and post merger QB's to rank them, and live ball and dead ball eras in baseball - pre 1988 closers and post 1987 closers are different beasts. Let's break them apart, and add a third set of guys as well to cover everything back another generation.

Modern era unmasked:


Only 1 (Fingers) of the top 17 guys with saves came before the modern guys (or mostly modern - Lee Smith, Reardon (interestingly he seems to have been used like a "modern closer since '84)) also had some saves the old way.

1950-1987:



Fingers, Gossage, Sutter, Quisenberry, Lyle, Worthington, Mike Marshall, Tekulve, Radatz (for peak)

Roy Face (interestingly used fairly close to a modern closer and owner of that exotic 18-1 1959 season)

and my pick for #1 of the 1950-1987 era: Hoyt Wilhelm

IMO the way they were used shortened careers, and curtailed performance. It has a lot less to do with the quality of the guys listed above vs. the "modern closer". So it is the situation they were in that limited them to a large extent, not shortage of talent. Therefore comparing them 1 to 1 is bound to make the earlier generations look weak. Does that make sense?

1945-1960:


Before that "relief aces" tended to be failed staters (due to inability stand up to a 4 more rotation usually), that became the long man/critical inning or three guy. Joe Page, Ellis Kinder, Bobby Shantz, Clem Labine, Lindy McDaniel, Jim Konstanty, and others fit this mold. Once they arrived, every well heeled team had to have one. They were not the washouts of earlier time that lived in shame in the bullpen praying for one more year, they were treated like special players. They have few saves, more decisions, more wins and innings then the other two types of relief pitchers I addressed above.

Summary, I haven't studied the Kinder/Shantz set closely enough yet to come up with a list. I already said that in the middle group Wilhelm is my #1, and in the modern era, Mo is #1. Mo and Wilhelm are in my all time pen. What else needs to be determined?

MJ-BULLS
01-26-2010, 01:04 PM
In Spanish, Mariano Rivera means greatest closer ever.

no doubt +1

p eter
01-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Homeruns dont make the league harder when you have people Like Pete Rose , Carl Yastrzemski , Paul Moliter , Eddie Murray , Dave Winfeild , Rickie Henderson , Rob Carew , and Lou Brock. Now according to my calculations thats eight , not to menchin the other three he faced at the end his career.Not to menchin you had several different people who could actually steal at least 50 bases every year.Fingers Pitched 30 more games than Rivera still he has 700 more innings pitched.Fingers are was known as a fireman.Which means he would usually just come in if their were people on base.Not all of the time ofcourse.Now how would their stats looked like if they only pitched one inning.In a time period where hit and run or any of that isnt used as much.Dont forget Fingers also won the MVP and Cy Young award.He led the league in saves more than Rivera.Dont forget that Rivera let the redsox in the world series.One last thing i bet most of you dont know this but this era is the greatest defensive era ever. We are making less Era's than any other Era.

bagwell368
01-26-2010, 01:30 PM
Fine, how about Mike Schmidt vs Jim Thome. Hall of fame, feared power hitter vs a meathead in the steroid era.

No doubt that Schmidt was the elite hitter for almost 10 years in the NL, he was a fine fielder, and very good baserunner. He's clearly top 25 of all time IMO.

However, Thome does offer OBP (10th all time BB's) and SLG (20th all time OPS) in large amounts. He has been named as a great and ideal teammate by guys that he has played with.

His top 10 comps to age are:

Schmidt
Killebrew
Thomas
Sosa
McGriff
Reggie Jackson
Sheffield
Palmeiro
McCovery
Griffey

Assuming no juice issues on those 10, only McGriff probably won't get in - and that's more due to positional overabundance then him sucking.

He's not a 1st tier HOF, but he's a solid HOF.

bagwell368
01-26-2010, 01:43 PM
Homeruns dont make the league harder when you have people Like Pete Rose , Carl Yastrzemski , Paul Moliter , Eddie Murray , Dave Winfeild , Rickie Henderson , Rob Carew , and Lou Brock. Now according to my calculations thats eight , not to menchin the other three he faced at the end his career.Not to menchin you had several different people who could actually steal at least 50 bases every year.Fingers Pitched 30 more games than Rivera still he has 700 more innings pitched.Fingers are was known as a fireman.Which means he would usually just come in if their were people on base.Not all of the time ofcourse.Now how would their stats looked like if they only pitched one inning.In a time period where hit and run or any of that isnt used as much.Dont forget Fingers also won the MVP and Cy Young award.He led the league in saves more than Rivera.Dont forget that Rivera let the redsox in the world series.One last thing i bet most of you dont know this but this era is the greatest defensive era ever. We are making less Era's than any other Era.

Fingers never faced Rose and Molitor in the regular season, he did however face FRob and Bench, check below list.

Here are some performances against other HOF'ers:

Harmon Killebrew was .345/.444/.793 in 36 PA's against Fingers
Frank Robinson was .348/.429/.652 in 28 PA's against Fingers
Johnny Bench was .375/.375/.688 in 16 PA's against Fingers
Robin Yount was .444/.444/1.000 in 9 PA's against Fingers
Ricky Henderson was .429/.429/.429 in 7 PA's against Fingers

Lou Brock is the weakest OF that played his full career since WWII to be allowed into the HOF, you might want to find someone else to list (he was great in the WS which I saw his second two - '67 and '68). BTW, what's the deal? Your father worshiped the game of the 70's?

Let me just mention (no not menchin) that you are going to my ignore list. Toodles.

Zep
01-26-2010, 08:23 PM
Oh man I really wanted to read those responses.

Damn you DBroncs :mad:

;)

JDMac80
01-26-2010, 11:46 PM
this is stupid and i am done with this thread. write whatever you want, the entire mlb-following world knows mo is #1. enjoy bickering a pointless and dull side of the argument

Dr. Steve Brule
01-27-2010, 12:24 AM
He's played all his games in the AL East and dominated for well over a decade. This past postseason shows that there's currently no one even close to his level, and there probably never has been.

p eter
01-27-2010, 12:59 AM
Post season he is the greatest closer ever but all overall its fingers.

Fury
01-27-2010, 03:11 AM
as a boston red sox fan......YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS