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View Full Version : I think a healthy Celtics team can win 70...



shep33
10-31-2009, 02:58 AM
If you really look at what they did last season... won 62 games, with KG only playing in 57. Now, they have their best player back in KG, and their bench is better. Really when they have a lineup of Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG and Sheed... that's probably the most talented lineup we've seen in the last 15 years... heck lets be honest this team has more talent than Jordan's Bulls when healthy. No way they beat those Bulls but still, they basically have 5 all-stars, an extremely deep bench with guys like Big Baby who can start on a lot of teams, Marquis Daniels who has started on a bunch of teams, Eddie House who is a knockdown shooter... and Kendrick Perkins, even though he starts, the guy is one of the best role players in the league. I'm just saying if they can remain healthy this team is so good defensively that they can get 70 or flirt with 70. What do you guys think? Look at their schedule for the next little while too...

4 Sunday, November 1 New Orleans Hornets
5 Tuesday, November 3 @ Philadelphia 76ers
6 Wednesday, November 4 @ Minnesota Timberwolves
7 Friday, November 6 Phoenix Suns 7:30 p.m.
8 Saturday, November 7 @ New Jersey Nets 7:30 p.m. -
9 Wednesday, November 11 Utah Jazz
10 Friday, November 13 Atlanta Hawks 8:00 p.m. Official Bud Light Pre-Party
11 Saturday, November 14 @ Indiana Pacers 7:00 p.m. -
12 Wednesday, November 18 Golden State Warriors 7:30 p.m. -
13 Friday, November 20 Orlando Magic 8:00 p.m. Official Bud Light Pre-Party
14 Sunday, November 22 @ New York Knicks 1:00 p.m. -
15 Wednesday, November 25 Philadelphia 76ers 7:30 p.m. Bacardi Postgame Party
16 Friday, November 27 Toronto Raptors 7:30 p.m. -
17 Sunday, November 29 @ Miami HEAT 6:00 p.m. -
18 Tuesday, December 1 @ Charlotte Bobcats 7:00 p.m. -
19 Thursday, December 3 @ San Antonio 8:00 p.m. Miller Lite Road Rally
20 Friday, December 4 @ Oklahoma City 8:00 p.m. -
21 Tuesday, December 8 Milwaukee Bucks 7:30 p.m. -
22 Thursday, December 10 @ Washington Wizards 8:00 p.m. Miller Lite Road Rally
23 Saturday, December 12 @ Chicago Bulls 8:00 p.m. -
24 Monday, December 14 @ Memphis Grizzlies

I mean the only games that will be tough for them should be @ San Antonio, and at home vs. the Magic. And they're playing Orlando at home, where D-12 is gonna have a heck of hard time against KG, Perkins, and Sheed. I'm just saying I think these guys can get off to a ridiculous start.

mightybosstone
10-31-2009, 03:04 AM
No way they win 70. To get even close to that, you'd have to expect that the aging core of KG, Pierce and Allen won't miss any games. No way in hell that happens. Plus, there's too much talent in the league for them to win 70 games. Even some of the mediocre teams are still competitive and they haven't even played a game against the much stronger Western Conference yet. You guys are three games in the season... you should focus a little more on actually staying at the top of the East before you worry about winning that many games...

Mcphee2222
10-31-2009, 03:07 AM
No way they win 70. To get even close to that, you'd have to expect that the aging core of KG, Pierce and Allen won't miss any games. No way in hell that happens. Plus, there's too much talent in the league for them to win 70 games. Even some of the mediocre teams are still competitive and they haven't even played a game against the much stronger Western Conference yet. You guys are three games in the season... you should focus a little more on actually staying at the top of the East before you worry about winning that many games...

He said a healthy Celtics team can win 70 games

shep33
10-31-2009, 03:12 AM
He said a healthy Celtics team can win 70 games

Exactly, if they are healthy, and injury free this year I can see it happening... don't know if they actually want to win 70, since they might be able to rest their guys towards the end of the year... but this team is the best defensive team we've seen in a long time.

1-800-STFU
10-31-2009, 03:13 AM
No, they can't.

ChiSox219
10-31-2009, 03:18 AM
If you really look at what they did last season... won 62 games, with KG only playing in 57. Now, they have their best player back in KG, and their bench is better. Really when they have a lineup of Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG and Sheed... that's probably the most talented lineup we've seen in the last 15 years... heck lets be honest this team has more talent than Jordan's Bulls when healthy. No way they beat those Bulls but still, they basically have 5 all-stars, an extremely deep bench with guys like Big Baby who can start on a lot of teams, Marquis Daniels who has started on a bunch of teams, Eddie House who is a knockdown shooter... and Kendrick Perkins, even though he starts, the guy is one of the best role players in the league. I'm just saying if they can remain healthy this team is so good defensively that they can get 70 or flirt with 70. What do you guys think? Look at their schedule for the next little while too...

4 Sunday, November 1 New Orleans Hornets
5 Tuesday, November 3 @ Philadelphia 76ers
6 Wednesday, November 4 @ Minnesota Timberwolves
7 Friday, November 6 Phoenix Suns 7:30 p.m.
8 Saturday, November 7 @ New Jersey Nets 7:30 p.m. -
9 Wednesday, November 11 Utah Jazz
10 Friday, November 13 Atlanta Hawks 8:00 p.m. Official Bud Light Pre-Party
11 Saturday, November 14 @ Indiana Pacers 7:00 p.m. -
12 Wednesday, November 18 Golden State Warriors 7:30 p.m. -
13 Friday, November 20 Orlando Magic 8:00 p.m. Official Bud Light Pre-Party
14 Sunday, November 22 @ New York Knicks 1:00 p.m. -
15 Wednesday, November 25 Philadelphia 76ers 7:30 p.m. Bacardi Postgame Party
16 Friday, November 27 Toronto Raptors 7:30 p.m. -
17 Sunday, November 29 @ Miami HEAT 6:00 p.m. -
18 Tuesday, December 1 @ Charlotte Bobcats 7:00 p.m. -
19 Thursday, December 3 @ San Antonio 8:00 p.m. Miller Lite Road Rally
20 Friday, December 4 @ Oklahoma City 8:00 p.m. -
21 Tuesday, December 8 Milwaukee Bucks 7:30 p.m. -
22 Thursday, December 10 @ Washington Wizards 8:00 p.m. Miller Lite Road Rally
23 Saturday, December 12 @ Chicago Bulls 8:00 p.m. -
24 Monday, December 14 @ Memphis Grizzlies

I mean the only games that will be tough for them should be @ San Antonio, and at home vs. the Magic. And they're playing Orlando at home, where D-12 is gonna have a heck of hard time against KG, Perkins, and Sheed. I'm just saying I think these guys can get off to a ridiculous start.


You must not have seen Jordan's Bulls

MJ- Best player ever
Pippen- Top 50 equal or better than KG
Rodman- Greatest rebounder ever, better than Pierce or Allen
Kukoc- Won 6th man of the year in 72 win season with a 20.4 PER, only KG had a higher PER on the Celtics last season
Harper- One of the best perimeter defenders allowed MJ and Pip to focus more on offense, before he came to the Bulls he averaged 20ppg/7rpg
Kerr- Greatest three point shooter in league history

The league also expanded to include the Raptors and Grizzlies diluting the talent per team. Since then there's only been one expansion team, the Bobcats while the talent pool has dramatically widened with foreign players including some of leagues best like Tony Parker, Dirk, Gasol, etc.


People toss around 70 wins like more than one team in history has done it. The fact is the Celtics could very well win 65 games, but go ask Phil Jackson how tough it is to get just five more wins. And that 65 win total, that's assuming they'll all stay healthy. Consider KG has played almost 10,000 more minutes than Jordan had in his career after the 72 win season and KG is coming off knee surgery that clearly has impacted his athletic ability, I don't see it happening.

Bulls_fan90
10-31-2009, 03:21 AM
These threads appeared last year as well. And i'll say what i said last time, it's a long year, form changes and injuries will always take place. Stupid thread to make after just three games.

shep33
10-31-2009, 03:27 AM
No way they win 70. To get even close to that, you'd have to expect that the aging core of KG, Pierce and Allen won't miss any games. No way in hell that happens. Plus, there's too much talent in the league for them to win 70 games. Even some of the mediocre teams are still competitive and they haven't even played a game against the much stronger Western Conference yet. You guys are three games in the season... you should focus a little more on actually staying at the top of the East before you worry about winning that many games...

I'm not even a Celtics fan, i'm looking at this in a basketball persepective. They have all the elements to allow them to win 70... again when healthy.

azkarraga
10-31-2009, 03:32 AM
No, they ain't that good, not even close to MJ Bulls. Pipen would still be your best player while there he was second option.

And yes, you're cursing your team. Not that I dislike it, but what the heck, it's your team.

shep33
10-31-2009, 03:39 AM
You must not have seen Jordan's Bulls

MJ- Best player ever
Pippen- Top 50 equal or better than KG
Rodman- Greatest rebounder ever, better than Pierce or Allen
Kukoc- Won 6th man of the year in 72 win season with a 20.4 PER, only KG had a higher PER on the Celtics last season
Harper- One of the best perimeter defenders allowed MJ and Pip to focus more on offense, before he came to the Bulls he averaged 20ppg/7rpg
Kerr- Greatest three point shooter in league history

The league also expanded to include the Raptors and Grizzlies diluting the talent per team. Since then there's only been one expansion team, the Bobcats while the talent pool has dramatically widened with foreign players including some of leagues best like Tony Parker, Dirk, Gasol, etc.


People toss around 70 wins like more than one team in history has done it. The fact is the Celtics could very well win 65 games, but go ask Phil Jackson how tough it is to get just five more wins. And that 65 win total, that's assuming they'll all stay healthy. Consider KG has played almost 10,000 more minutes than Jordan had in his career after the 72 win season and KG is coming off knee surgery that clearly has impacted his athletic ability, I don't see it happening.

You make some great points, but Jordan's bulls IMO were never the most TALENTED team in the league. They had the greatest player in history, and without Jordan we all know that team would win around around 50 games. That bulls team was the greatest in history, and in my mind always will be... however, you can't say that this Celtics team is less talented...

KG- best big man defender in the league... versatile enough to guard 3's in some instances, while playing the pick and roll with guards better than anyone
Perkins- terrific interior defender.. held his own aginst howard last year
Wallace-one of the best post defenders in the last decade, can score 15-20 on any night
Rondo- great defensive pg... and the guy is basically a triple double threat every night
Ray Allen- soon to be the record holder for all-time 3s made, a proven 20ppg scorere
Paul Pierce- a proven scorer, and defender in the clutch
Eddie House-shot 44% from 3 last year
Glen Davis- averaged 16pts, and 6 boards in last years playoffs

This team is ridiculously talented... and if the Cavs faulter this year, the Magic are the only ones in the East that are gonna give them trouble

Jahari Kavi
10-31-2009, 03:45 AM
winning 70 is a tough thing to do.............really tough

shep33
10-31-2009, 03:56 AM
winning 70 is a tough thing to do.............really tough

I totally agree, and I don't think they'll do it due to injuries. However, if their core players... Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perk, Sheed... all play at least 78 games than they could do it. However, its likely not going to happen and i think they'll win around 65... plus Big Baby is out for a while for being a bonehead. But this team on paper, is one of the best built teams i have ever seen... only thing that they're really missing is a backup pg.

abe_froman
10-31-2009, 03:56 AM
possible.i know they're shooting for over 70,doubtful.my guess is in the high 60's

ChiSox219
10-31-2009, 04:29 AM
You make some great points, but Jordan's bulls IMO were never the most TALENTED team in the league. They had the greatest player in history, and without Jordan we all know that team would win around around 50 games. That bulls team was the greatest in history, and in my mind always will be... however, you can't say that this Celtics team is less talented...

KG- best big man defender in the league... versatile enough to guard 3's in some instances, while playing the pick and roll with guards better than anyone
Perkins- terrific interior defender.. held his own aginst howard last year
Wallace-one of the best post defenders in the last decade, can score 15-20 on any night
Rondo- great defensive pg... and the guy is basically a triple double threat every night
Ray Allen- soon to be the record holder for all-time 3s made, a proven 20ppg scorere
Paul Pierce- a proven scorer, and defender in the clutch
Eddie House-shot 44% from 3 last year
Glen Davis- averaged 16pts, and 6 boards in last years playoffs

This team is ridiculously talented... and if the Cavs faulter this year, the Magic are the only ones in the East that are gonna give them trouble

If you took Pierce, Allen, KG, and Rasheed from seven years ago and put them on this team, then, maybe you can argue which team had more talent. Ever single attribute you listed for them are things they've accomplished over their long careers or attributes they no longer possess.

Jordan>Garnett
Pippen>Pierce


Rodman stopped Shaq in his prime
Kukoc shot better than Ray Allen and if you compare their per 36 minute stats, Kukoc beats Allen nearly across the board with a better assist, rebound, block, steal, and scoring rate.
Harper specialized in guarding quick small guards so Jordan wouldn't have to, guys like Rondo. He was also a good offensive player like I said, dropping 20ppg the year before he joined the Bulls.

Kukoc>Allen
Rodman>Rasheed
Harper>Rondo (this may be close or Rondo make just be in a great situation for a PG)
Eiddie House shot 44% from 3? Kerr shot 51.5%. Judd Buchler shot 44.4% from 3 he played 10mpg whereas House has been getting 20mpg (in their title year) and 15mpg (this season).

Kerr>House

Glen Davis doesn't make Bulls rotation. Phil likes to play everyone so he'd get 5-10mpg

Buchler, Wennigton = Glen Davis

Which leaves Perkins who is better than Longley.


Don't forget the Bulls won 55 games with Jordan missing all of them and Pippen missing 10 of those game (Bulls went 4-6) they had Grant instead of Rodman and Armstrong instead of Harper.

The next season they struggled with Grant leaving and Longley hurt, they had no inside presence and MJ didn't come back until 17 games were left in the season, and they still won 47.

shep33
10-31-2009, 05:04 AM
If you took Pierce, Allen, KG, and Rasheed from seven years ago and put them on this team, then, maybe you can argue which team had more talent. Ever single attribute you listed for them are things they've accomplished over their long careers or attributes they no longer possess.

Jordan>Garnett
Pippen>Pierce


Rodman stopped Shaq in his prime
Kukoc shot better than Ray Allen and if you compare their per 36 minute stats, Kukoc beats Allen nearly across the board with a better assist, rebound, block, steal, and scoring rate.
Harper specialized in guarding quick small guards so Jordan wouldn't have to, guys like Rondo. He was also a good offensive player like I said, dropping 20ppg the year before he joined the Bulls.

Kukoc>Allen
Rodman>Rasheed

Eiddie House shot 44% from 3? Kerr shot 51.5%. Judd Buchler shot 44.4% from 3 he played 10mpg whereas House has been getting 20mpg (in their title year) and 15mpg (this season).

Kerr>House

Glen Davis doesn't make Bulls rotation. Phil likes to play everyone so he'd get 5-10mpg

Buchler, Wennigton = Glen Davis

Which leaves Perkins who is better than Longley.

C'mon now, Kukoc is not a better shooter than Ray Allen by any means... Ray allen last year average 18.2ppg... shot 48% from the field, 41% from 3, and 95% from the line... From 1995-1998... Kuckoc had lower numbers than Ray Allen did last year. With his best in that span coming in the 72 win season where he shot 49% from the field (which he should since he's 6-11), 40% from 3, and 77% from the line... that one season is the best 3point shooting, and freethrow shooting season he'd ever had with the Bulls. Oh and he averaged 13.1 ppg that year. So Ray Ray, not only shot the same from the field and from 3 with the Celtics last year since he has "declined", but averaged 5 more points than Kukoc, while shooting 18% better from the freethrow line... I love Toni, but in no way is he better than Ray Allen in any means of basketball greatness.

Now... there is no way Rodman would've stopped Shaq during his prime... which is considered during his dynasty years with Kobe--1999-2002. I'm sorry Rodman along with, any other great centre couldn't guard him during that stretch... he was much stronger than his Orlando Days, and he'd toss guys like Ostertag around like a Rag doll.

Now... your basically saying that KG is less talented than Dennis Rodman (who is the greatest rebounder ever in my opinion). But there is no way Rodman during that 72 win season is better than Kevin Garnett.

I agree that Pippen is better than Pierce, but that's a lot closer than people think in my opinion.

Rondo, is a top 5 pg in the league, and will be for the next 10 years. The guy put up ridiculous numbers that we've never seen before by a pg in the playoffs ever. 17 ppg, 9.7rebounds, 9.8 assists, with 2.5 steals a game. So I'd think he's more talented than Harper.

Of course MJ is always gonna be the greatest player on the floor.

But you can't say Big Baby is nothing... he averaged 16 and 6 last year in the playoffs, the guy is a great role player.

Rasheed Wallace, and Perkins are better than Longley and the Bulls 6th man.

But here is the biggest problem i have... Yes i think that the Celtics are more talented than that Bulls team allaround... I'm sure that Bulls team knew of teams that were more TALENTED than them during dynasty runs. However, the 95-95 Bulls are the greatest team in the history of the NBA, not because they were more talented than other teams, but because they were the best TEAM, with the best role players, with the best player ever. I even think that the Lakers and Celtics teams are way more talented than that Bulls team... but again, talent doesn't mean winning. The Suns were the most talented team in the NBA a few years ago, but they still weren't gonna beat the better TEAM in the San Antonio Spurs.

shep33
10-31-2009, 05:11 AM
Plus you can't base the greatness of a player based on their per 36 or 48 minute stats. I think JR Smith would average 31ppg per 48 minutes. Troy Murphy would've average 17rebounds per 48 mins last year. While Barbosa and Nate Robinson would've averaged 28 ppg per 48.

BeantownBill
10-31-2009, 05:22 AM
You must not have seen Jordan's Bulls

MJ- Best player ever
Pippen- Top 50 equal or better than KG
Rodman- Greatest rebounder ever, better than Pierce or Allen
Kukoc- Won 6th man of the year in 72 win season with a 20.4 PER, only KG had a higher PER on the Celtics last season
Harper- One of the best perimeter defenders allowed MJ and Pip to focus more on offense, before he came to the Bulls he averaged 20ppg/7rpg
Kerr- Greatest three point shooter in league history

The league also expanded to include the Raptors and Grizzlies diluting the talent per team. Since then there's only been one expansion team, the Bobcats while the talent pool has dramatically widened with foreign players including some of leagues best like Tony Parker, Dirk, Gasol, etc.


People toss around 70 wins like more than one team in history has done it. The fact is the Celtics could very well win 65 games, but go ask Phil Jackson how tough it is to get just five more wins. And that 65 win total, that's assuming they'll all stay healthy. Consider KG has played almost 10,000 more minutes than Jordan had in his career after the 72 win season and KG is coming off knee surgery that clearly has impacted his athletic ability, I don't see it happening.


Ever heard of a guy named Reggie Miller? Hell, for that matter I put Ray Allen up there with Kerr.

As for the Celtics age 'problems', do you realize the average age of the starters for both the Celtics and the Lakers is 29.2 years? With the benches being comparable as well? Yeah, KG has had issues lately. So has Bynum. Every team deals with it. Deep benches help and the Celts are better in that respect than they were a year ago.

While I don't believe the Celtics will get to 70, it isn't THAT farfetched. I think a lot of things would have to fall in line for it to happen (including staying healthy and rested) and their primary goal will be another championship, not 70+wins.

waveycrockett
10-31-2009, 05:44 AM
The Celtics would have to decide whether winning 70 or a RING is more important because the old geezers they got on their team do not have the legs for both.

ChiSox219
10-31-2009, 05:49 AM
Ever heard of a guy named Reggie Miller? Hell, for that matter I put Ray Allen up there with Kerr.

As for the Celtics age 'problems', do you realize the average age of the starters for both the Celtics and the Lakers is 29.2 years? With the benches being comparable as well? Yeah, KG has had issues lately. So has Bynum. Every team deals with it. Deep benches help and the Celts are better in that respect than they were a year ago.

While I don't believe the Celtics will get to 70, it isn't THAT farfetched. I think a lot of things would have to fall in line for it to happen (including staying healthy and rested) and their primary goal will be another championship, not 70+wins.

Allen is 34th all time in 3pt% and Reggie Miller is 40th. Miller never shot higher than .429 and Allen has never shot higher than .434

Kerr shot over 50% in 3 seasons playing 78, 82, and 82 games.


Don't know what the Lakers have to do with this. The average age of the Celtics starters is misleading because there three best players are all 32+ and Garnett in particular has played heavy minutes. Jordan rested for a year an a half and came into the 95 season having played over 10,000 fewer minutes than KG has. Add to that KG was hurt and had to have surgery last season and so far doesnt look close to the guy he was in Minnesota.

ChiSox219
10-31-2009, 06:00 AM
C'mon now, Kukoc is not a better shooter than Ray Allen by any means... Ray allen last year average 18.2ppg... shot 48% from the field, 41% from 3, and 95% from the line... From 1995-1998... Kuckoc had lower numbers than Ray Allen did last year. With his best in that span coming in the 72 win season where he shot 49% from the field (which he should since he's 6-11), 40% from 3, and 77% from the line... that one season is the best 3point shooting, and freethrow shooting season he'd ever had with the Bulls. Oh and he averaged 13.1 ppg that year. So Ray Ray, not only shot the same from the field and from 3 with the Celtics last year since he has "declined", but averaged 5 more points than Kukoc, while shooting 18% better from the freethrow line... I love Toni, but in no way is he better than Ray Allen in any means of basketball greatness.

Now... there is no way Rodman would've stopped Shaq during his prime... which is considered during his dynasty years with Kobe--1999-2002. I'm sorry Rodman along with, any other great centre couldn't guard him during that stretch... he was much stronger than his Orlando Days, and he'd toss guys like Ostertag around like a Rag doll.

Now... your basically saying that KG is less talented than Dennis Rodman (who is the greatest rebounder ever in my opinion). But there is no way Rodman during that 72 win season is better than Kevin Garnett.

I agree that Pippen is better than Pierce, but that's a lot closer than people think in my opinion.

Rondo, is a top 5 pg in the league, and will be for the next 10 years. The guy put up ridiculous numbers that we've never seen before by a pg in the playoffs ever. 17 ppg, 9.7rebounds, 9.8 assists, with 2.5 steals a game. So I'd think he's more talented than Harper.

Of course MJ is always gonna be the greatest player on the floor.

But you can't say Big Baby is nothing... he averaged 16 and 6 last year in the playoffs, the guy is a great role player.

Rasheed Wallace, and Perkins are better than Longley and the Bulls 6th man.


Jordan is better than Garnett. Each is the clear cut leader and star of their team
Pippen is better than Pierce. There is no need for any arguement.
Rodman is better than Allen. I prefer the greatest rebounder of all time to a good shooter
Kukoc is better than Rondo. Like Rondo, Kukoc was a great passer and good rebounder, unlike Rondo he could shoot the ball.

Those are each teams 4 main options and the Bulls are better across the board.

If you prefer Rasheed (who was barely an average NBA player last season) over Kerr or Harper, I'm not gonna argue, I don't think it's true though.



Plus you can't base the greatness of a player based on their per 36 or 48 minute stats. I think JR Smith would average 31ppg per 48 minutes. Troy Murphy would've average 17rebounds per 48 mins last year. While Barbosa and Nate Robinson would've averaged 28 ppg per 48.

I'm not using 48 minute stats. I used 36 minutes to equalize the time for Kukoc and Allen. Kukoc could not get on the floor as much as Allen not because he wasn't good enough, but because there was too much talent in front of him. If you don't like that, just compare their PERs where Kukoc is much better (and Kukoc had almost identical PERs for a three stretch from 95-97)

To win 72 games you need guys to have career years. Kukoc did that

magichatnumber9
10-31-2009, 06:39 AM
our bench is the X factor. Lately the bench makes everyone else, sorry. Our bench easily could take credit for winning game 1 of the season