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StevenStrasburg
10-29-2009, 10:08 PM
Ironically, my last thread was deleted by an admin with the name 'yankeefan'. Only kidding, I understand why he did it.

Before I begin I would like to ask fans of certain large market teams that will remain nameless to please keep the 'oh here's another small-market ***** complaining about the yankees'-ing to a minimum. Thank you.

This is an intellectual discussion, let's keep it cordial and the insults to a minimum. Although I'm not holding my breath.

A question: At what point is Brian Cashman acknowledged as the most overrated person in sports? He's had a virtually unlimited budget for years, and has yet to build a deep rotation or bullpen.

An opinion: Along the value-for-money lines, Yankee fans point out to me that the Bombers have always spent money on free agents. That's just who they are. So why bring it up or hold it against them.

Well, they have never spent money like they did last year. No team ever has in the history of the sport. They were lucky that some big salaries, like Mussina, dropped off the books. But they grabbed the No. 1, 2 and 3 free agents in a monster free agent class! And they got Swisher, too.

So if there was ever a Yankee team to root against, it is this one. This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history. What would even be in second place? Seriously, I'd love to hear other examples. The Yanks have bought two big names in a year before. But they have never bought the No. 1 and 2 starters in the World Series, their No. 3 hitter who is an MVP candidate and a RF who hit 29 homers. This is a joke. And why did they do it? (Okay, "because they can.") Because, for the first time since '95, they didn't make the playoffs last year. Oh, the poor broken hearted babies., And they were getting a new stadium.

Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte -- love 'em. All gamers, and great gamers. CC -- good guy, smart, team first, charismatic pitcher. Teixeira -- got that trying-to-hard-to-polish-the-image Steve Garvey facade goin' on (but without the postseason production ... yet). But he's a great two-way player and, unlike Garvey who really was a plastic man, I think Tex will mature into a player who's very popular and deserve to be. He's well-liked by teammates. Okay, what about A-Rod? I pity Goldie Hawn. What do you tell your daughter, Kate Hudson, when she's dating a narcissist who makes the leading men in Hollywood look modest. Ok, A-Rod is trying to change. (Maybe.) Getting caught cheating will lead to an Extreme Makeover every time. Is it sincere? Lets give it five years. No, I'm not a real nice guy.

YankeeFan28
10-29-2009, 10:10 PM
So what does this have to do with payroll?

Or were you just trying to be funny?

StevenStrasburg
10-29-2009, 10:16 PM
Sorry? It relates to Cashman. The budget of his team. In addition it adds a little humor, I suppose.

And in an advance retort to the inevitable flurry of accusations that I think there should be a salary cap:
Yes, I believe in a salary cap but only if there is a salary floor as well

Jamiecballer
10-29-2009, 10:21 PM
i don't think you can call Brian Cashman overrated- that would imply that he was highly regarded at some point. he is only known because he is GM of the Yankees.his track record is very so-so for all the resources he is given.

i'm not sure he'd be considered top 15 for most baseball fans.

Sabres39
10-29-2009, 10:22 PM
Yeah, most smart Yankees fans will admit that Cashman isn't the best GM or maybe even a good one. I think the majority would tell you that Theo is the best, and the ones that don't, really secretly know it, but don't want to say it out loud for the Red Sox fans to see.

TallicaFan87
10-29-2009, 10:45 PM
Not really sure what you are arguing here. Noone has ever painted Cashman as some GM mastermind. And Yankee fans will be the first to admit that he isn't a great GM.

NYK|NYY
10-29-2009, 10:48 PM
No one has ever viewed Cashman as an above average GM.

Pavelb1
10-29-2009, 11:07 PM
"This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history."

The 1997 Florida Marlins are on the phone.

http://www.amazon.com/They-Dont-Win-Its-Shame/dp/0965384683/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256872052&sr=8-1

Not to mention before the 1970s, players could be bought straight up for cash.

GottaBelieve
10-29-2009, 11:13 PM
But there isn't a salary cap - or a salary floor. There's nothing. So, what's the point of complaining about how much the Yankees spend?

My real complaint is with teams that don't spend money they do have. At least the Yankees go all out. Can't blame them for doing everything they possibly can to make their investment more and more valuable.

If this were any other business (other than baseball), people would be commending the Yankees for being a company that pays it forward and also puts a large amount of the money they make right back into their business to keep it successful - all the while also keeping their employees well paid.

And I'm not a Yankees fan. But I fully respect their aggressiveness year after year in making their team as good as it can be.

JTorre4Prez
10-29-2009, 11:23 PM
How exactly is this different than any other thread knocking the yankees for spending?

Go Sabres
10-29-2009, 11:25 PM
this is coming from a guy who is a nationals fan no wonder why he is *****ing becasue if their bum lives up to expectations and is not a bust he will be a yankee in 5 yrs lol just when he is ready to really dominate again unless he's a bust

Don Starks
10-29-2009, 11:39 PM
Ironically, my last thread was deleted by an admin with the name 'yankeefan'. Only kidding, I understand why he did it.

Before I begin I would like to ask fans of certain large market teams that will remain nameless to please keep the 'oh here's another small-market ***** complaining about the yankees'-ing to a minimum. Thank you.

This is an intellectual discussion, let's keep it cordial and the insults to a minimum. Although I'm not holding my breath.

A question: At what point is Brian Cashman acknowledged as the most overrated person in sports? He's had a virtually unlimited budget for years, and has yet to build a deep rotation or bullpen.

An opinion: Along the value-for-money lines, Yankee fans point out to me that the Bombers have always spent money on free agents. That's just who they are. So why bring it up or hold it against them.

Well, they have never spent money like they did last year. No team ever has in the history of the sport. They were lucky that some big salaries, like Mussina, dropped off the books. But they grabbed the No. 1, 2 and 3 free agents in a monster free agent class! And they got Swisher, too.

So if there was ever a Yankee team to root against, it is this one. This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history. What would even be in second place? Seriously, I'd love to hear other examples. The Yanks have bought two big names in a year before. But they have never bought the No. 1 and 2 starters in the World Series, their No. 3 hitter who is an MVP candidate and a RF who hit 29 homers. This is a joke. And why did they do it? (Okay, "because they can.") Because, for the first time since '95, they didn't make the playoffs last year. Oh, the poor broken hearted babies., And they were getting a new stadium.

Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte -- love 'em. All gamers, and great gamers. CC -- good guy, smart, team first, charismatic pitcher. Teixeira -- got that trying-to-hard-to-polish-the-image Steve Garvey facade goin' on (but without the postseason production ... yet). But he's a great two-way player and, unlike Garvey who really was a plastic man, I think Tex will mature into a player who's very popular and deserve to be. He's well-liked by teammates. Okay, what about A-Rod? I pity Goldie Hawn. What do you tell your daughter, Kate Hudson, when she's dating a narcissist who makes the leading men in Hollywood look modest. Ok, A-Rod is trying to change. (Maybe.) Getting caught cheating will lead to an Extreme Makeover every time. Is it sincere? Lets give it five years. No, I'm not a real nice guy.

how can you ask people to be cordial and then proceed to rip an entire team? should anybody take seriously the fan of a franchise that cant even spell the name on their jerseys correctly? your gm could barely even sign the #1 draft pick this year, so i wouldnt go around calling out other teams gms. i am not saying cashman is great, but hes better than yours.

also the yankees have a lower payroll than last year
and the yankees made the ALDS (edit) in 1995
also what does your A-rod rant have to do with anything baseball related? maybe you should post more on gossip blogs than sports forums if you want to talk about kate hudson and her mom.

stop being such a little "b****" about the yankees and watch the natinals drown into obscurity.

Pavelb1
10-29-2009, 11:43 PM
"But they have never bought the No. 1 and 2 starters in the World Series"

I'm guessing the Phillies just grew Cliff Lee and Pedro Martinez from the fertile fertile grounds of Old Veteran Stadium.

*Yes, Lee was a trade...but still.

GottaBelieve
10-29-2009, 11:53 PM
Because, for the first time since '95, they didn't make the playoffs last year.

Actually, they made the playoffs in 1995...



and the yankees made the world series in 1995

But.... they didn't do that...

J4KOP99
10-30-2009, 12:03 AM
[/B]

how can you ask people to be cordial and then proceed to rip an entire team? should anybody take seriously the fan of a franchise that cant even spell the name on their jerseys correctly? your gm could barely even sign the #1 draft pick this year, so i wouldnt go around calling out other teams gms. i am not saying cashman is great, but hes better than yours.

also the yankees have a lower payroll than last year
and the yankees made the ALDS (edit) in 1995
also what does your A-rod rant have to do with anything baseball related? maybe you should post more on gossip blogs than sports forums if you want to talk about kate hudson and her mom.

stop being such a little "b****" about the yankees and watch the natinals drown into obscurity.



This pretty much sums it up. Might as well close the thread now.



Great points though Steven Strasburg...you made a lot of realistic points and absolutely no generalizations.

DieHardColtsfan
10-30-2009, 12:17 AM
But there isn't a salary cap - or a salary floor. There's nothing. So, what's the point of complaining about how much the Yankees spend?

My real complaint is with teams that don't spend money they do have. At least the Yankees go all out. Can't blame them for doing everything they possibly can to make their investment more and more valuable.

If this were any other business (other than baseball), people would be commending the Yankees for being a company that pays it forward and also puts a large amount of the money they make right back into their business to keep it successful - all the while also keeping their employees well paid.

And I'm not a Yankees fan. But I fully respect their aggressiveness year after year in making their team as good as it can be.

This post is like a breathe of fresh air... OMG thank you i needed that. When i say something like that coming from a Yankee fan its just white noice...

Bo Sox Fan
10-30-2009, 12:54 AM
I honestly think my 12 year old sister could general manage the Yankees, the $$$$$ is always going to be there to spend like a moron. I can guarantee the Yankees (with Damon & Matsui coming off the books) will buy atleast one of Holliday or Bay, if not both. Boston will attempt to bring Bay back but they always put a value on a player and never exceed past that point, ie) Texeira last winter. So the Yankees will simply just give him an extra $20-$30 million to go to the Bronx, like Damon did 4 years ago. As a Red Sox fan I don't even care anymore about there spending after seeing tonights game, Pedro makes league minimum which doesn't even crack a million bucks while Burnette makes $18 million a season and the results we're pretty much the same, so they can spend like retards but they are still only human, just rich humans and money doesn't buy championships as they've proved the last 10 years

DCB/LAL
10-30-2009, 02:10 AM
Look plain and simple The Yankee fans PAY a hefty price to go watch their Yankees play and they pay in hopes of watching them win why blame the Yankees for putting the best team possible on the field for their fans?? I mean after all it is mostly due to the fans that they can afford to spend this money on players and not go broke they wanna see them win and thats exactly what the Yanks try to do is WIN and put the best possible team for them to win don't hate but instead appreciate its really not their fault other owners dont spend to please their fans.

Pinstripe pride
10-30-2009, 10:03 AM
as I yankee fan, I have never viewed cashman as that much of a GM. Most of his moves are very easy and obvious ones with the resources he is given. He is an average GM at best

misterd
10-30-2009, 10:09 AM
Ironically, my last thread was deleted by an admin with the name 'yankeefan'. Only kidding, I understand why he did it.

Before I begin I would like to ask fans of certain large market teams that will remain nameless to please keep the 'oh here's another small-market ***** complaining about the yankees'-ing to a minimum. Thank you.

This is an intellectual discussion, let's keep it cordial and the insults to a minimum. Although I'm not holding my breath.

A question: At what point is Brian Cashman acknowledged as the most overrated person in sports? He's had a virtually unlimited budget for years, and has yet to build a deep rotation or bullpen.

He also had the Boss dictating a lot of his decisions. Pavano is the one the blew up in his face, but Giambi, Brown, Johnson.. those were George.


An opinion: Along the value-for-money lines, Yankee fans point out to me that the Bombers have always spent money on free agents. That's just who they are. So why bring it up or hold it against them.

Well, they have never spent money like they did last year. No team ever has in the history of the sport.

Except the spent more the year before and didn't make the playoffs. Why is it so hard for people to understand that the money commited to a contract doesn't get paid all at once? They lost players, replaced them with fewer, better players, for slightly less money.


They were lucky that some big salaries, like Mussina, dropped off the books. But they grabbed the No. 1, 2 and 3 free agents in a monster free agent class! And they got Swisher, too.

In a trade for relatively little. Anyone could have had him. As for the contracts running out, there wasn't as much luck as you think - the stayed out of the free agent market for a few years specifically with an eye towards the 2008-9 offseason.


So if there was ever a Yankee team to root against, it is this one. This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history. What would even be in second place? Seriously, I'd love to hear other examples. The Yanks have bought two big names in a year before. But they have never bought the No. 1 and 2 starters in the World Series..

David Cone, Jimmy Key
David Cone, David Wells, Orlando Hernandez
David Cone, Roger Clemmens, Orlando Hernandez

Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling



their No. 3 hitter who is an MVP candidate and a RF who hit 29 homers. This is a joke. And why did they do it? (Okay, "because they can.") Because, for the first time since '95, they didn't make the playoffs last year. Oh, the poor broken hearted babies., And they were getting a new stadium.

They did it because they had no one left in their rotation except Joba Chamberlain, and no first baseman. And once again, they long ago planned to make a splash last offseason, and last minute addition of Tex was with the recognition that the wouldn't pick up another for some time. So rather than dump money on FAs every year, they chose to use it when it would get them the biggest bang for their buck.


Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte -- love 'em. All gamers, and great gamers. CC -- good guy, smart, team first, charismatic pitcher. Teixeira -- got that trying-to-hard-to-polish-the-image Steve Garvey facade goin' on (but without the postseason production ... yet). But he's a great two-way player and, unlike Garvey who really was a plastic man, I think Tex will mature into a player who's very popular and deserve to be. He's well-liked by teammates. Okay, what about A-Rod? I pity Goldie Hawn. What do you tell your daughter, Kate Hudson, when she's dating a narcissist who makes the leading men in Hollywood look modest. Ok, A-Rod is trying to change. (Maybe.) Getting caught cheating will lead to an Extreme Makeover every time. Is it sincere? Lets give it five years. No, I'm not a real nice guy.

Well then please root against the Yanks. We don't need your kind around here.

The Schmooze
10-30-2009, 10:12 AM
Since theres no salary cap, you cant blame a team for spending money(if they have it) to sign the players they want.

Aside from that, the Yankees have a core gropup of players who are homegrown anyway, its not like their team is a bunch of mercenaries

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go throw up

jojoe1188
10-30-2009, 10:16 AM
"This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history."

The 1997 Florida Marlins are on the phone.

http://www.amazon.com/They-Dont-Win-Its-Shame/dp/0965384683/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256872052&sr=8-1

Not to mention before the 1970s, players could be bought straight up for cash.

such as babe ruth? so under your logic you consider all the world series he won in pinstripes "bought"

misterd
10-30-2009, 10:20 AM
But there isn't a salary cap - or a salary floor. There's nothing. So, what's the point of complaining about how much the Yankees spend?


Not an unfair complaint if the point is to complain about the imbalance in baseball. But to expect the Yankees not to use their monetary advantage is a bit like expecting the Nationals to restrain picking Strausberg with their first round pick.


My real complaint is with teams that don't spend money they do have. At least the Yankees go all out. Can't blame them for doing everything they possibly can to make their investment more and more valuable.

That's a bit of a misdirection. Yes, there are teams that pocket money that they could be spending. However, I don't think there are any teams that could legitimately afford to keep up with the Yankees long term. They have a dominant share of the nations largest market, and a large base outside the NY-tri-state area as well. Add that to their history and their championships, plus the stars that they can afford to keep or put on their team, and it becomes a marketing and merchandising powerhouse that for the forseeable future can outspend anyone with one wallet tied behind their backs.

Again, not saying they should be faulted for doing so, or not being allowed to do so, but it does give them a clear competetive advantage in the regular season, and, to me and at least some other fans, it takes a bit away when the advantage is so lopsided.


If this were any other business (other than baseball), people would be commending the Yankees for being a company that pays it forward and also puts a large amount of the money they make right back into their business to keep it successful - all the while also keeping their employees well paid.

They are commended. Its just that unlike other corporations, baseball teams have fans (OK, Apple Inc too). So while people can applaud the business model of the company, that doesn't mean they will be happy with the success of their product (see Microsoft).


And I'm not a Yankees fan. But I fully respect their aggressiveness year after year in making their team as good as it can be.

Yep. In the end baseball is an entertainment, and outside of the most passionate fans, people want to see their team field good players and win. They care as much about the Yankee payroll as they do about the budget of the latest Hollywood blockbuster.

Pavelb1
10-30-2009, 11:01 AM
I honestly think my 12 year old sister could general manage the Yankees, the $$$$$ is always going to be there to spend like a moron. I can guarantee the Yankees (with Damon & Matsui coming off the books) will buy atleast one of Holliday or Bay, if not both. Boston will attempt to bring Bay back but they always put a value on a player and never exceed past that point, ie) Texeira last winter. So the Yankees will simply just give him an extra $20-$30 million to go to the Bronx, like Damon did 4 years ago. As a Red Sox fan I don't even care anymore about there spending after seeing tonights game, Pedro makes league minimum which doesn't even crack a million bucks while Burnette makes $18 million a season and the results we're pretty much the same, so they can spend like retards but they are still only human, just rich humans and money doesn't buy championships as they've proved the last 10 years

2 mill. Prorated to about 1 mill. And I think he wanted 10mill at the begininng of the season...so it's not like everyone was snubbing him, they just wern't willing to take a chance on a 37/38 year old pitcher who hadn't pitched in a while.

davg31
10-30-2009, 11:15 AM
But there isn't a salary cap - or a salary floor. There's nothing. So, what's the point of complaining about how much the Yankees spend?

My real complaint is with teams that don't spend money they do have. At least the Yankees go all out. Can't blame them for doing everything they possibly can to make their investment more and more valuable.

If this were any other business (other than baseball), people would be commending the Yankees for being a company that pays it forward and also puts a large amount of the money they make right back into their business to keep it successful - all the while also keeping their employees well paid.

And I'm not a Yankees fan. But I fully respect their aggressiveness year after year in making their team as good as it can be.

:clap: this is what annoys me

Tragedy
10-30-2009, 12:06 PM
Yeah, most smart Yankees fans will admit that Cashman isn't the best GM or maybe even a good one. I think the majority would tell you that Theo is the best, and the ones that don't, really secretly know it, but don't want to say it out loud for the Red Sox fans to see.
omg i caught you!!!!!

Cashman is a decent GM. He's made mistakes, no doubt about it (every GM does). It's a lot easier to look good when you're backed by a ton of cash like Theo and Cashman.

donnie23
10-30-2009, 12:15 PM
Cashman has only been the GM since 2006, before that he did what he was told. I agree it is frustrating that we overpay so often, but we had no farm until recently.

Steelers>NFL
10-30-2009, 12:46 PM
Cashman has only been the GM since 2006, before that he did what he was told. I agree it is frustrating that we overpay so often, but we had no farm until recently.
Even having good farm players now, you really think they are gonna bring more up to play fulltime. I think not. I wished they would. They would get more production out some farm players than some more new free agent signees.

coloradoyankee
10-30-2009, 12:55 PM
[/B]

how can you ask people to be cordial and then proceed to rip an entire team? should anybody take seriously the fan of a franchise that cant even spell the name on their jerseys correctly? your gm could barely even sign the #1 draft pick this year, so i wouldnt go around calling out other teams gms. i am not saying cashman is great, but hes better than yours.

also the yankees have a lower payroll than last year
and the yankees made the ALDS (edit) in 1995
also what does your A-rod rant have to do with anything baseball related? maybe you should post more on gossip blogs than sports forums if you want to talk about kate hudson and her mom.

stop being such a little "b****" about the yankees and watch the natinals drown into obscurity.

This is the single best response to any post i have came across since my short time at PSD. Read my mind, as the man above me said this should be closed thread!

donnie23
10-30-2009, 01:01 PM
Even having good farm players now, you really think they are gonna bring more up to play fulltime. I think not. I wished they would. They would get more production out some farm players than some more new free agent signees.

They will use them if they have a need at the position. By 2011 I'm sure they plan on having Jackson play full-time in CF and same for Montero in 2012, but it doesn't always work out that way.

Bo Sox Fan
10-30-2009, 01:29 PM
the yankees farm system means diddly crap when they constantly go out and sign big name free agents to fill the holes every off-season. yankee fans can't even argue that

J4KOP99
10-30-2009, 01:36 PM
the yankees farm system means diddly crap when they constantly go out and sign big name free agents to fill the holes every off-season. yankee fans can't even argue that

No team is going to be able to fill a whole roster just from players they have brought up through their farm system.


Of course the Yankees will have to go out and fill some spots and because they have the ability to spend a ton of money, they will do exactly that.


As for the farm system, the yankees have done a pretty good job in that respect.

Jeter
Mariano
Pettitte
Posada
Cano
Melky
Joba
Hughes


What do you want us, as yankees fans, to argue?

NyCsPoRtS1
10-30-2009, 01:49 PM
I honestly think my 12 year old sister could general manage the Yankees, the $$$$$ is always going to be there to spend like a moron. I can guarantee the Yankees (with Damon & Matsui coming off the books) will buy atleast one of Holliday or Bay, if not both. Boston will attempt to bring Bay back but they always put a value on a player and never exceed past that point, ie) Texeira last winter. So the Yankees will simply just give him an extra $20-$30 million to go to the Bronx, like Damon did 4 years ago. As a Red Sox fan I don't even care anymore about there spending after seeing tonights game, Pedro makes league minimum which doesn't even crack a million bucks while Burnette makes $18 million a season and the results we're pretty much the same, so they can spend like retards but they are still only human, just rich humans and money doesn't buy championships as they've proved the last 10 years

money doesnt buy ships but we have won 2 in the last 10 :clap:

NyCsPoRtS1
10-30-2009, 01:51 PM
the yankees farm system means diddly crap when they constantly go out and sign big name free agents to fill the holes every off-season. yankee fans can't even argue that

i think this guy is:mad: lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! good f your city

NYNJ30
10-30-2009, 01:53 PM
the yankees farm system means diddly crap when they constantly go out and sign big name free agents to fill the holes every off-season. yankee fans can't even argue that

This coming from a Red Sox fan?

Mr. October
10-30-2009, 01:53 PM
the yankees farm system means diddly crap when they constantly go out and sign big name free agents to fill the holes every off-season. yankee fans can't even argue that

You may want to reevaluate your statement and look at both teams rosters before spewing statements that have little substance.

Bo Sox Fan
10-30-2009, 01:58 PM
your forgetting:

A-rod
Texeira
Sabathia
Burnette (those 4 already surpass the marlins payroll)
Damon
Swisher

Clemons
Giambi
Brown
R. Johnson
Pavano
on and on and on and on

NyCsPoRtS1
10-30-2009, 02:01 PM
marlins are terribly managed (see 97 to 98 and 03 to 04)

JTorre4Prez
10-30-2009, 02:30 PM
your forgetting:

A-rod
Texeira
Sabathia
Burnette (those 4 already surpass the marlins payroll)
Damon
Swisher

Clemons
Giambi
Brown
R. Johnson
Pavano
on and on and on and on

Yankees traded soriano for arod and garbage for swisher so your list of FA signings there is only 4 guys. And if you want to cite FAs of the last decade, I can probably name more farm hands than you can FAs.

Anyway this isn't meant to be a knock against boston in anyway, only for argument's sake:
JD Drew
David Ortiz
Daisuke
Julio Lugo (RS paying his salary)
=Those 4 surpass the marlins payroll

GottaBelieve
10-30-2009, 02:38 PM
Not an unfair complaint if the point is to complain about the imbalance in baseball. But to expect the Yankees not to use their monetary advantage is a bit like expecting the Nationals to restrain picking Strausberg with their first round pick.



That's a bit of a misdirection. Yes, there are teams that pocket money that they could be spending. However, I don't think there are any teams that could legitimately afford to keep up with the Yankees long term. They have a dominant share of the nations largest market, and a large base outside the NY-tri-state area as well. Add that to their history and their championships, plus the stars that they can afford to keep or put on their team, and it becomes a marketing and merchandising powerhouse that for the forseeable future can outspend anyone with one wallet tied behind their backs.

Again, not saying they should be faulted for doing so, or not being allowed to do so, but it does give them a clear competetive advantage in the regular season, and, to me and at least some other fans, it takes a bit away when the advantage is so lopsided.



They are commended. Its just that unlike other corporations, baseball teams have fans (OK, Apple Inc too). So while people can applaud the business model of the company, that doesn't mean they will be happy with the success of their product (see Microsoft).



Yep. In the end baseball is an entertainment, and outside of the most passionate fans, people want to see their team field good players and win. They care as much about the Yankee payroll as they do about the budget of the latest Hollywood blockbuster.


All fair points. But in the end, major league baseball is a a business.

Is the business struggling right now? No way.

So to expect a change in the present day business model doesn't really make much sense. That's why I think it's a bit silly for people to constantly whine about salary caps and salary floors. Maybe it will happen one day, but it won't happen any time soon.

And I'll grant you that some teams and markets have absolutely zero chance to come anywhere near the big market clubs in terms of revenue to stay competitive. But there plenty of clubs that do have enough revenue to field a better product yearly, but simply choose to control their margin and take profits.

Plus we all know that throwing money at a problem is no guarantee to turning a team into a winner. There are plenty of teams with big payrolls that don't taste success. There are plenty of clubs with small payrolls that continually enjoy October baseball.

The Yankees may have a lot more money than other teams, but they also put their money into a product that their fans can enjoy. Yankees fans know that if their team loses, it's not because the ownership or GM didn't do everything in their financial power to improve the team.

I don't hate an organization that does that for its fans. I envy it.

J-Loco
10-30-2009, 02:52 PM
Same crap, different day. Why do people waste our time with this non-sense?

torontocubs
10-30-2009, 03:12 PM
All fair points. But in the end, major league baseball is a a business.

Is the business struggling right now? No way.

So to expect a change in the present day business model doesn't really make much sense. That's why I think it's a bit silly for people to constantly whine about salary caps and salary floors. Maybe it will happen one day, but it won't happen any time soon.

And I'll grant you that some teams and markets have absolutely zero chance to come anywhere near the big market clubs in terms of revenue to stay competitive. But there plenty of clubs that do have enough revenue to field a better product yearly, but simply choose to control their margin and take profits.

Plus we all know that throwing money at a problem is no guarantee to turning a team into a winner. There are plenty of teams with big payrolls that don't taste success. There are plenty of clubs with small payrolls that continually enjoy October baseball.

The Yankees may have a lot more money than other teams, but they also put their money into a product that their fans can enjoy. Yankees fans know that if their team loses, it's not because the ownership or GM didn't do everything in their financial power to improve the team.

I don't hate an organization that does that for its fans. I envy it.

As a die-hard fan of a Yankees Division rival, I couldn't have put it better. Sure each guy on this forum can ***** and moan about the Yankees and their money, but at the end of the day, there is not a lone soul on this forum with a right mind that would say the same thing if it was our team. Envy is just it. Jealousy, you name it. Its sports, and if somebody has something better than us, we hate on it. In this case its money. Ask a San Francisco Giants fan how much they hated that scum bad roid monster named Bonds, I would have gone crazy getting to watch 73 hrs in a season, and so would you.

Its a business, and unfortunately those yanks are dam good at it.

Jamiecballer
10-30-2009, 03:18 PM
As a die-hard fan of a Yankees Division rival, I couldn't have put it better. Sure each guy on this forum can ***** and moan about the Yankees and their money, but at the end of the day, there is not a lone soul on this forum with a right mind that would say the same thing if it was our team. Envy is just it. Jealousy, you name it.



i have to call ******** on this. there are some of us who do in fact believe that the best interests of the game should be put first.

ONCE AGAIN, i do not blame the yankees or their fans for this, but the game is being ruined for a ton of fans as the discrepancy widens.

Jimmy Shine
10-30-2009, 04:14 PM
The Yanks have every right to spend as much as they want and put the best players on the field that money can buy. Just dont expect me to be overly impressed when they win it all by outspending all other teams by 10s of millions.

Pensx3
10-30-2009, 04:28 PM
This is the first year Cashman has assembled a good team, he finally realized you need pitching. If George didnt have dimentia and knew where he was, he would have fired Cashmans years ago. George used to rule with an iron fist, I dont think Hank gives 2 *****...

This world series has been soooo boring, these games take 3+ hours...I hate philly fans, but the Yankees are a joke with that payroll, so there is no reason to watch...and as a pirates fan, its really hard to get into baseball, especially since my team was out of playoff contention in june

GottaBelieve
10-30-2009, 04:31 PM
The Yanks have every right to spend as much as they want and put the best players on the field that money can buy. Just dont expect me to be overly impressed when they win it all by outspending all other teams by 10s of millions.

Fair enough. Neither will I, nor the majority of baseball fans today.

But they're not in it to impress anyone. They're in it to win and make their product more and more valuable. And that's what they're paying all that money for. So no matter what you or I think of them if and when they win it all, they will have still accomplished their goals.

Jimmy Shine
10-30-2009, 04:42 PM
Fair enough. Neither will I, nor the majority of baseball fans today.

But they're not in it to impress anyone. They're in it to win and make their product more and more valuable. And that's what they're paying all that money for. So no matter what you or I think of them if and when they win it all, they will have still accomplished their goals.

I agree with that. Their first obligation is to their fans and they live up to it. That guarantees an escalating franchise value and I have no problem with a businessman making money.

My comments were directed towards some Yankee fans on this board who seem to feel theyre winning on a level playing field. Theyre not. And to me, that diminishes the accomplishment.

jojoe1188
10-30-2009, 05:31 PM
I agree with that. Their first obligation is to their fans and they live up to it. That guarantees an escalating franchise value and I have no problem with a businessman making money.

My comments were directed towards some Yankee fans on this board who seem to feel theyre winning on a level playing field. Theyre not. And to me, that diminishes the accomplishment.

:clap:

Chapin78
10-31-2009, 01:49 PM
I agree with that. Their first obligation is to their fans and they live up to it. That guarantees an escalating franchise value and I have no problem with a businessman making money.

My comments were directed towards some Yankee fans on this board who seem to feel theyre winning on a level playing field. Theyre not. And to me, that diminishes the accomplishment.

I'm interested on you to elaborate on that. Aren't all these players professional? When did the Yankees have high school teams on the schedule??? Just because the Yankees invest in there own team more then others it means "they're not playing on a level field"? Does this mean that the rest of the league is not playing up to the standards that the Yankees are on. Personally I want the Yankees to win they are doing nothing illegal to win. They can get every FA out there or just use the farm system to win games and World Series as long as they win that is important to the fans of the Yankees. To me as fan of the Yanks I would compare there winning to this, say you come to me saying your mother needs an operation and it cost 1,000$ for the procedure I give you the 1,000$ do is really matter how I gave you the money??? I just want to win and if your franchise doesn't have that same want then they should not be a professional franchise anymore.

fanofclendennon
10-31-2009, 02:14 PM
Fair enough. Neither will I, nor the majority of baseball fans today.

But they're not in it to impress anyone. They're in it to win and make their product more and more valuable. And that's what they're paying all that money for. So no matter what you or I think of them if and when they win it all, they will have still accomplished their goals.

I think rooting for the Yankees is a different dynamic than rooting for other teams. As a Mets fan, I'll savior the few times in my lifetime that my team might win a World Series. Same with the fans of all other teams not named the Yankees.

Their expectations are much different. Every year they dont win a World Series is judged as an abysmal failure.

fanofclendennon
10-31-2009, 02:26 PM
I'm interested on you to elaborate on that. Aren't all these players professional? When did the Yankees have high school teams on the schedule??? Just because the Yankees invest in there own team more then others it means "they're not playing on a level field"? Does this mean that the rest of the league is not playing up to the standards that the Yankees are on. Personally I want the Yankees to win they are doing nothing illegal to win. They can get every FA out there or just use the farm system to win games and World Series as long as they win that is important to the fans of the Yankees. To me as fan of the Yanks I would compare there winning to this, say you come to me saying your mother needs an operation and it cost 1,000$ for the procedure I give you the 1,000$ do is really matter how I gave you the money??? I just want to win and if your franchise doesn't have that same want then they should not be a professional franchise anymore.


I think it's safe to say when you're paying your starting pitcher more than some teams are paying an entire infield, we're not talking about a level playing field. When you're paying your backup right fielder more money than some teams are paying any of their starting players, we're not talking about a level playing field.

It certainly is not your team's fault. And as a Yankee fan, you have nothing to feel guilty about. But the fact is, the Yankees, by virtue of their high payroll, had a much better chance to win the World Series this year than most baseball teams. And it wasn'tbecause of their brilliant scouting, player development, and shrewd trading. It was because they could afford to buy the players they needed to win while other teams couldnt. That's not a level playing field.

To improve on your analogy: Two people are dying from the same disease. Only an expensive medical procedure that will cost $5 million can save them. One person can afford the procedure; the other cannot.

Would you say both have the same chance to live?

GottaBelieve
10-31-2009, 02:34 PM
I think rooting for the Yankees is a different dynamic than rooting for other teams. As a Mets fan, I'll savior the few times in my lifetime that my team might win a World Series. Same with the fans of all other teams not named the Yankees.

Their expectations are much different. Every year they dont win a World Series is judged as an abysmal failure.

It's like the guy who sleeps with a model every night compared to the guy who hits jackpot those few precious times.

The guy who gets it less appreciates it more.

But who are we kidding? We'd all still rather be the guy getting it from a Victoria's Secret girl all the time.

Pensx3
10-31-2009, 02:53 PM
I think rooting for the Yankees is a different dynamic than rooting for other teams. As a Mets fan, I'll savior the few times in my lifetime that my team might win a World Series. Same with the fans of all other teams not named the Yankees.

Their expectations are much different. Every year they dont win a World Series is judged as an abysmal failure.

oh please, the mets have the second highest payroll in baseball, according to espn...the mets somehow continue to suck every year, at least they didnt tease its fans this year and blow it in September, i know they had injuries this year but the team is pitiful. Whoever the GM is there, he needs canned. Oliver Perez was too pathetic for the Pirates, but yet they pick him up. Dont forget about Benson, another bone head move. Your mets pay $100+++ million more than my pirates..your team is just under achievers, my team just sucks..the mets ruin baseball almost as bad the yankees

Chapin78
10-31-2009, 03:02 PM
I think it's safe to say when you're paying your starting pitcher more than some teams are paying an entire infield, we're not talking about a level playing field. When you're paying your backup right fielder more money than some teams are paying any of their starting players, we're not talking about a level playing field.

It certainly is not your team's fault. And as a Yankee fan, you have nothing to feel guilty about. But the fact is, the Yankees, by virtue of their high payroll, had a much better chance to win the World Series this year than most baseball teams. And it wasn'tbecause of their brilliant scouting, player development, and shrewd trading. It was because they could afford to buy the players they needed to win while other teams couldnt. That's not a level playing field.

To improve on your analogy: Two people are dying from the same disease. Only an expensive medical procedure that will cost $5 million can save them. One person can afford the procedure; the other cannot.

Would you say both have the same chance to live?

You make good points in all you say but it doesn't mean I agree with any of them or can't counter them after all this is just our opinions as fans. You do understand that the payroll is less this year then it was last year? The Yankees are shredding the payroll (sarcastically said hehe). Your team had the same opportunity to sign that same pitcher that makes as much as some teams "entire infield". Just because your team didn't pull the trigger on the signing you should be mad at your team not the Yankees. Would you really not want CC on your team??? If your talking about Swisher as the backup RF he came through a trade which we gave up little to get him something any team could have done and if your talking about Nady he came via trade also and we gave up a top OF prospect for him. It certainly is a level playing field.

Back on the analogy- The one person that has the procedure and does it has nothing to do with if they can afford it, because they both can afford it they work in the same business one just wants to take care of himself better then the other.


It's like the guy who sleeps with a model every night compared to the guy who hits jackpot those few precious times.

The guy who gets it less appreciates it more.

But who are we kidding? We'd all still rather be the guy getting it from a Victoria's Secret girl all the time.


Excellent!!!

ricomactaco
11-01-2009, 01:15 PM
All fair points. But in the end, major league baseball is a a business.

Is the business struggling right now? No way.

So to expect a change in the present day business model doesn't really make much sense. That's why I think it's a bit silly for people to constantly whine about salary caps and salary floors. Maybe it will happen one day, but it won't happen any time soon.

And I'll grant you that some teams and markets have absolutely zero chance to come anywhere near the big market clubs in terms of revenue to stay competitive. But there plenty of clubs that do have enough revenue to field a better product yearly, but simply choose to control their margin and take profits.

Plus we all know that throwing money at a problem is no guarantee to turning a team into a winner. There are plenty of teams with big payrolls that don't taste success. There are plenty of clubs with small payrolls that continually enjoy October baseball.

The Yankees may have a lot more money than other teams, but they also put their money into a product that their fans can enjoy. Yankees fans know that if their team loses, it's not because the ownership or GM didn't do everything in their financial power to improve the team.

I don't hate an organization that does that for its fans. I envy it.

True, baseball is a business but more importantly it is a sport. Why do you think the NFL, NBA and NHL have a salary cap and floor? Are you yankee fans who argue against a cap just smarter than all of the people who run those leagues? Jealousy no. Appalled at the outrageous (spending) advantage yes. No, it is not the Yankees fault, but buy buying the guys they did in the offseason to get them where they are now, really brought attention to baseballs problem. The problem is baseball not the Yankees but please Yankee fans, try and understand the rest of the country when they say they are frustrated and want equal opportunity to compete. Anything less than that is ignorance.

J4KOP99
11-01-2009, 01:23 PM
True, baseball is a business but more importantly it is a sport. Why do you think the NFL, NBA and NHL have a salary cap and floor? Are you yankee fans who argue against a cap just smarter than all of the people who run those leagues? Jealousy no. Appalled at the outrageous (spending) advantage yes. No, it is not the Yankees fault, but buy buying the guys they did in the offseason to get them where they are now, really brought attention to baseballs problem. The problem is baseball not the Yankees but please Yankee fans, try and understand the rest of the country when they say they are frustrated and want equal opportunity to compete. Anything less than that is ignorance.

I saw that you were from mass. Are you by any chance a celtics fan?

misterd
11-01-2009, 01:37 PM
the yankees farm system means diddly crap when they constantly go out and sign big name free agents to fill the holes every off-season. yankee fans can't even argue that

Except we haven't. Its why in 2008 we went into the season with a rotation of Pettite, Wang, Joba, Hughes and Kennedy. Other than resigning their own players, the Yanks have shyed away from the big FA since '04-'05, when they signed Pavano and Wright. They were at their worst from '01-'05, a period in which they made many poor signings and trades which frustrated many Yankee fans.

misterd
11-01-2009, 01:54 PM
It's like the guy who sleeps with a model every night compared to the guy who hits jackpot those few precious times.

The guy who gets it less appreciates it more.

But who are we kidding? We'd all still rather be the guy getting it from a Victoria's Secret girl all the time.

Yep. But the Yanks haven't gottenthe girl in 9 years. OK, 9 years isn't 101 years. But many of us Yankee fans remember the 17 years between 78 and 96, and even older fans remember the years between 62 and 77.

For me, I was glad when they stopped winning. It was getting boring after '98. I've been able to enjoy this season because they've been so dull and poorly managed most of the decade, made so many bad decisions. I am normally the first to protest the big names the Yankees trade for or sign - I was against Knoblauch, Clemmens, Giambi, Sheffield, Brown, Johnson (but in favor of Pavano- go figure)- but I like these guys, I like what they bring to the team, they way they changed the team, and they fit legitimate needs. I hope they don't dip back into this well for a couple of years, I hope they stay far away from Holliday and Mauer. I hope they let Jackson, Romine, DeLeon, Heathcott, Montero, Cervelli fill in the positions in the OF and C, and we have a plethora of young pitchers to fill out the rotation and pen.

ricomactaco
11-01-2009, 03:39 PM
I saw that you were from mass. Are you by any chance a celtics fan?
Yeah I'm a Celtics fan. Hopefully we'll see you guys in the finals but it's a long season and Orlando scares me this year.

WSU Tony
11-01-2009, 05:07 PM
"This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history."

The 1997 Florida Marlins are on the phone.

http://www.amazon.com/They-Dont-Win-Its-Shame/dp/0965384683/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256872052&sr=8-1

Not to mention before the 1970s, players could be bought straight up for cash.

The Yankees STILL spent 40% more than the Marlins that year! :laugh:

Oh, and this year, the Yankees spend 34% more than the 2nd highest payroll.

I wonder where the Yankees would be if it came down to teaching and player development rather than.... well.... you know.

MDfootball36
11-01-2009, 05:14 PM
he stole swisher from the white sox

WSU Tony
11-01-2009, 05:14 PM
I'm interested on you to elaborate on that. Aren't all these players professional? When did the Yankees have high school teams on the schedule??? Just because the Yankees invest in there own team more then others it means "they're not playing on a level field"? Does this mean that the rest of the league is not playing up to the standards that the Yankees are on. Personally I want the Yankees to win they are doing nothing illegal to win. They can get every FA out there or just use the farm system to win games and World Series as long as they win that is important to the fans of the Yankees. To me as fan of the Yanks I would compare there winning to this, say you come to me saying your mother needs an operation and it cost 1,000$ for the procedure I give you the 1,000$ do is really matter how I gave you the money??? I just want to win and if your franchise doesn't have that same want then they should not be a professional franchise anymore.

If we play a pick up game of football in the backyard and I get the first 3 picks, then you get a pick, then I get the next 3 picks, and then you get another pick, would it be fair?

Having 200M to spend on payroll when the next highest spending team is 30% lower is the same exact thing as me having the first three picks in our backyard game.

There should be a soft cap (which costs draft picks if you go over it) and there should be a minimum cap. Move the minimum cap up 10% each year for a few years and raise the upper cap by 2-3% each year.

This would squeeze the payrolls closer together and make the teams more competitive. Lower payroll teams would get more picks than the higher payroll teams but they would have to spend $ to get them (10% raising of the lower end of the cap).

Higher payroll teams would be forced to use their resources wisely or they would be stuck with no draft picks and over paid players. Lower payroll teams would be forced to raise their payrolls but then would be supported with more picks than the upper payroll teams.

NYKnicks4511
11-01-2009, 05:26 PM
There is no such thing as buying a World Series Championship.

Owners of Major League teams are billionaires. If they don't want to put money into their teams and put them in the best position to win, it's not the Yankees' fault.

Cashman is good in the way that he convinced the boss to continue to build our farm system rather than trading away all our prospects for washed up stars.

Cashman IS the best GM in baseball right now.

HOZ THE KNICK
11-01-2009, 05:27 PM
i love when all you assclowns complain about the yankees when the owner of yall teams is a billionaire as well but chooses to stuff the money in their pockets instead of fielding a decent product....LOL

Jamiecballer
11-01-2009, 05:47 PM
i love when all you assclowns complain about the yankees when the owner of yall teams is a billionaire as well but chooses to stuff the money in their pockets instead of fielding a decent product....LOL

Major League Baseball is supposed to be a self sustaining product. I don't believe it's in the owners handbook that you have to gamble your personal fortune in order to run a successful franchise.

Frankly I would say if the Yanks win the series that the players should get their rings, the rest of the organization should not. After all, THEY aren't the best in the game at what they do.

Pavelb1
11-01-2009, 06:00 PM
The Yankees STILL spent 40% more than the Marlins that year! :laugh:

Oh, and this year, the Yankees spend 34% more than the 2nd highest payroll.

I wonder where the Yankees would be if it came down to teaching and player development rather than.... well.... you know.

1997

New York Yankees $ 59,148,877
Florida Marlins $ 47,753,000

40%...14%...whatever, right?

Pavelb1
11-01-2009, 06:01 PM
If we play a pick up game of football in the backyard and I get the first 3 picks, then you get a pick, then I get the next 3 picks, and then you get another pick, would it be fair?

Having 200M to spend on payroll when the next highest spending team is 30% lower is the same exact thing as me having the first three picks in our backyard game.

There should be a soft cap (which costs draft picks if you go over it) and there should be a minimum cap. Move the minimum cap up 10% each year for a few years and raise the upper cap by 2-3% each year.

This would squeeze the payrolls closer together and make the teams more competitive. Lower payroll teams would get more picks than the higher payroll teams but they would have to spend $ to get them (10% raising of the lower end of the cap).

Higher payroll teams would be forced to use their resources wisely or they would be stuck with no draft picks and over paid players. Lower payroll teams would be forced to raise their payrolls but then would be supported with more picks than the upper payroll teams.

Arn't the Pohlads, like the richest owners in baseball?

Jamiecballer
11-01-2009, 06:53 PM
1997

New York Yankees $ 59,148,877
Florida Marlins $ 47,753,000

40%...14%...whatever, right?

it'd be nice if one of you knew how to use a calculator. that looks like about 25% to me.

29$JerZ
11-01-2009, 06:58 PM
Ironically, my last thread was deleted by an admin with the name 'yankeefan'. Only kidding, I understand why he did it.

Before I begin I would like to ask fans of certain large market teams that will remain nameless to please keep the 'oh here's another small-market ***** complaining about the yankees'-ing to a minimum. Thank you.

This is an intellectual discussion, let's keep it cordial and the insults to a minimum. Although I'm not holding my breath.

A question: At what point is Brian Cashman acknowledged as the most overrated person in sports? He's had a virtually unlimited budget for years, and has yet to build a deep rotation or bullpen.

An opinion: Along the value-for-money lines, Yankee fans point out to me that the Bombers have always spent money on free agents. That's just who they are. So why bring it up or hold it against them.

Well, they have never spent money like they did last year. No team ever has in the history of the sport. They were lucky that some big salaries, like Mussina, dropped off the books. But they grabbed the No. 1, 2 and 3 free agents in a monster free agent class! And they got Swisher, too.

So if there was ever a Yankee team to root against, it is this one. This is the single worst example of trying to buy a world title in baseball history. What would even be in second place? Seriously, I'd love to hear other examples. The Yanks have bought two big names in a year before. But they have never bought the No. 1 and 2 starters in the World Series, their No. 3 hitter who is an MVP candidate and a RF who hit 29 homers. This is a joke. And why did they do it? (Okay, "because they can.") Because, for the first time since '95, they didn't make the playoffs last year. Oh, the poor broken hearted babies., And they were getting a new stadium.

Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte -- love 'em. All gamers, and great gamers. CC -- good guy, smart, team first, charismatic pitcher. Teixeira -- got that trying-to-hard-to-polish-the-image Steve Garvey facade goin' on (but without the postseason production ... yet). But he's a great two-way player and, unlike Garvey who really was a plastic man, I think Tex will mature into a player who's very popular and deserve to be. He's well-liked by teammates. Okay, what about A-Rod? I pity Goldie Hawn. What do you tell your daughter, Kate Hudson, when she's dating a narcissist who makes the leading men in Hollywood look modest. Ok, A-Rod is trying to change. (Maybe.) Getting caught cheating will lead to an Extreme Makeover every time. Is it sincere? Lets give it five years. No, I'm not a real nice guy.

The point of a Free Agency is too get the best free agents to lead you to the World Series.

Not the Yankees fault for having such a large amount of money to spend, that's NY for you.

Just because you spend money doesn't mean it makes you automatically a top team, Yankees are an example of that for this decade.

What's the point of this thread anyway? They have done nothing wrong, a CAP won't ever be allowed in MLB any time soon. Seems pointless to me.

ShinobiNYC
11-01-2009, 08:28 PM
The Yankees are playing withing the rules...I'll go even beyond to say that they just spend to win.

They grew their fanbase and their market by winning...it took spending money to make them win. Money making money.

Back in the 1970 the Yankees was a disaster financially, they still had the history and some good farm players but nobody really cared about the team(the attendance was down, people barely cared to watch,...etc).

What can stop any midmarket team to do what the Yankees did in 1970. EVen this current Yankees can't afford to sign every big name(who did they sign again between 2006 and 2008 besides their own FAs?).

Look a salary cap will probably make the field more even among midlevel/highlevel payroll teams. But as long there are gonna be cheap owners(most in small markets) who care more about making profit then winning those teams and fanbases will always whine about the situation, salary cap or not.

Teams like the Red Sox, Cardinals, Angels, A's, Mets, Phillies, Braves,...etc are already proving us that not only they can spent as much as the Yankees; But they can also find other ways to make their teams better besides signing FAs(good trades, spending money on scouting, international talents,...etc).

infernoscurse
11-01-2009, 08:37 PM
this topic gets boring after the 5th time brought up

Raiderwood
11-01-2009, 08:39 PM
I like to see competitive sports as much as anyone but let me ask you this...the Yankees have been supporting clubs via revenue sharing for years now...where does all of that money go? This is a Billionaires club and they sustain themselves outside of the ballclubs...so ..is the revenue reinvested like the Steinbrenners do it with the YES revenue?

There are teams that are competitive every year, the Twins are one of them, for the most part the Giants, A's are other examples....why are these organizations successful and the others not?

Hey I'm a Raiders fan so I see a messed up organization every week....Its painful....so I understand this...but you cant tell me in Baseball, with all of the teams getting new parks, and revenue sharing, that they cant put a competitive product on the field. That to me is just your teams owners putting $$ in their pockets and not on the field....

Raiderwood
11-01-2009, 08:39 PM
Oh and BTW.....Lets beat the Phillies tonight!!!!!!!!!!

Joemoes
11-01-2009, 09:01 PM
your just upset the nationals suck....
First off in the bullpen you usually go with the hot hand unless its a certain match up or someone like Rivera....Why spend so much on relievers for the season when most of the time your starters will go at least 5 innings and if they dont you have a Long reliever...who do you think Cashman should have signed to make the bullpen better? I think he compensated for that by signing CC expecting him to go on Average 7-9 innings a start hence saving the bullpen. We had 2 guys coming off good years in Veras and Bruney they faltered early on badly, is that Cashman's fault? I don't think so. So he went within and used Hughes, Coke ,and Robertson who proved to be very effective...So you complain about payroll and want them to spend more?

Owners should be allowed to spend as much as they want...I mean how can you do a salary cap right now? That would be a huge disadvantage to Yanks they would need years to unload down to the salary cap with the contracts of CC, A-Rod, Tex which are about 70million together....And if a salary cap is invoked in 2011 do the Yanks not resign Jeter then?
What do you suggest the Salary cap be?
I feel if they do this it should be 200million, and increase by 25million every 5years and teams must increase payroll according to how much revenue they bring in each season...
Payroll WILL be down to 180million eventually I feel, That is one of Cashman's goals I think before he leaves....with Posada, Rivera prolly retiring after their current contracts, and Matsui and Damon taking pay cuts if they are resigned. Pettite will eventually retire and we have people to fill the holes with Hughes, Kennedy, Montero, Melancon, Joba, Romine, Gardener....

fanofclendennon
11-02-2009, 09:13 AM
oh please, the mets have the second highest payroll in baseball, according to espn...the mets somehow continue to suck every year, at least they didnt tease its fans this year and blow it in September, i know they had injuries this year but the team is pitiful. Whoever the GM is there, he needs canned. Oliver Perez was too pathetic for the Pirates, but yet they pick him up. Dont forget about Benson, another bone head move. Your mets pay $100+++ million more than my pirates..your team is just under achievers, my team just sucks..the mets ruin baseball almost as bad the yankees

I can enumerate better than you ever will the many reasons why the Mets are a horribly run franchise, rife with mismanagement from top to bottom. I wasn't looking for sympathy for the Mets who probably won't win a thing no matter how much money they spend until they change ownership.

But while the Mets do have a very high payroll hovering around the 150 million, tops in the NL I believe, the Yanks are still about a whopping 100 million above them. Perspective please? This means that the difference betwen the Yankees and Mets payroll is greater than the entire payroll of many MLB teams!

More perspective? With all their injuries and bad signings this year (Ollie for the sake of argument), the Mets would have been able to sign enough high priced backups with that extra hundred million to make a serious playoff run despite losing three all star caliber players to season-long injuries.

And to all the posters who point out the other billionaires who run baseball teams but don't spend as much as the Yankees: The Steinbrenner Family doesnt spend its own personal wealth on its baseball team. The Yankees, as with any other baseball team, are a financially independent entity, a corporation. Owners determine how much to spend based on how much money their team is bringing in. No other team in baseball, Mets included, has a revenue stream like the Yankees. To their owners credit, they take much of that revenue and invest heavily because they know what a world series championship will do for their brand.

As I've said, I don't fault the Yankees ownership one bit. I also don't think their fans should feel guilty in the least. All the money in the world won't buy a World Series winner unless the money is spent right.

But the Yankees extraordinarily high payroll gives them a margin of error other teams cannot enjoy. For example, it would have been devastating to just about any other team to throw money away on contracts for players like Kevin Brown, Jason Giambi, Carl Pavano, etc. Not so with the Yankees. They can just wait for them to expire -- in some cases they can even eat them -- and then bring in more high ticket players with hopefully better results. They seem to have succeeded this year.

fanofclendennon
11-02-2009, 09:21 AM
You make good points in all you say but it doesn't mean I agree with any of them or can't counter them after all this is just our opinions as fans. You do understand that the payroll is less this year then it was last year? The Yankees are shredding the payroll (sarcastically said hehe). Your team had the same opportunity to sign that same pitcher that makes as much as some teams "entire infield". Just because your team didn't pull the trigger on the signing you should be mad at your team not the Yankees. Would you really not want CC on your team??? If your talking about Swisher as the backup RF he came through a trade which we gave up little to get him something any team could have done and if your talking about Nady he came via trade also and we gave up a top OF prospect for him. It certainly is a level playing field.

Back on the analogy- The one person that has the procedure and does it has nothing to do with if they can afford it, because they both can afford it they work in the same business one just wants to take care of himself better then the other.


Again, the Yankees have a much greater revenue stream than any other team enabling them to afford players that other teams couldn't. The Yankees don't spend more money because they want to win more than anyone else. They spend more money because they can.

Pavelb1
11-02-2009, 10:55 AM
this topic gets boring after the 5th time brought up

Expect to see it 500 times in the next week.

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 11:18 AM
Expect to see it 500 times in the next week.

You can say that again.. but at the end of the day its just jealously. If its not jealousy of the team, its the fact that there cities dont generate as much revenue, I mean you certainly cant sit back and expect them not the spend the money they earn. That would be foolish and wishful thinking. Correct?

Jimmy Shine
11-02-2009, 02:06 PM
Anyone want to believe the billionaire Steinbrenners would have a 200 million dollar payroll if they owned the Cleveland Indians?

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 03:27 PM
Anyone want to believe the billionaire Steinbrenners would have a 200 million dollar payroll if they owned the Cleveland Indians?

No they wouldn't.. George had a family owned dock (shipping/rigging/port inport-export) Which made his family very wealthy also had shares in the New Jersey Devils and New Jersey Nets granted. Yet a lot of the money and a lot of the payroll that makes up the Yankees is from the revenue earned from New York. You hit the nail on the head. Its our city, not the Yankees. Like I digressed before, You simply can not expect the Yankees not to spend the earned money. Correct?

donnie23
11-02-2009, 03:39 PM
Anyone want to believe the billionaire Steinbrenners would have a 200 million dollar payroll if they owned the Cleveland Indians?

No but I believe they would have 100 million dollar payroll in Minnessota.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 03:49 PM
Anyone whose on this site enough knows where I stand on this issue, because I'm quite vocal about it, but I'm getting tired of the salary cap debate becoming a petty argument between Red Sox and Yankee fans.

In short, something needs to change, and hopefully now with the Yankees recent "success", Bud will have the nerve to do something.

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Anyone whose on this site enough knows where I stand on this issue, because I'm quite vocal about it, but I'm getting tired of the salary cap debate becoming a petty argument between Red Sox and Yankee fans.

In short, something needs to change, and hopefully now with the Yankees recent "success", Bud will have the nerve to do something.

I hear ya, I've heard ya... If you know anything about the MLBPA you should know a salary cap wont ever happen, its actually laughable thinking about the subject ever coming up (MLBPA shutting it down in a heartbeat).. Also Like I've digressed multiple times. The Yankees are benificaries to New York City.. The revenue created from this city is unreal.. So Bud has no right telling people not to buy the ridiculously overpirced season tix or hotdogs, beer jersey's etc... It just wont happen ho hum.. + I cant imagine your suggesting to tell the Yankees not to spend the money thev'e earned thats just foolish. Oh and the Luxery tax we pay keeping the Twins and Brewers around..

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Look, multiple teams and owners have already requested a salary cap and you have to figure this year will prompt a few more.

Maybe if a salary cap doesn't happen, they will make a step towards evening out the competitive balance. But in all fairness, a salary cap would be the best way to do that.

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Look, multiple teams and owners have already requested a salary cap and you have to figure this year will prompt a few more.

Maybe if a salary cap doesn't happen, they will make a step towards evening out the competitive balance. But in all fairness, a salary cap would be the best way to do that.

Why is this year different from last year? The Yankees did not increase their payroll. Oh, I forgot the sour grapes argument.

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:08 PM
They should spend the money but you Yankee fans gotta realize that having the most money always gives the Yankees an unfair advantage on the free agent market. Some NFL, NBA, and even NHL teams support the little guy so it should be the same way in baseball. Just because Pittsburgh can't draw the revenue doesn't mean they shouldn't have the right to put a competitive team on the field. If the small market teams could keep their players and stay competitive they'll start to draw some revenue but without help of a salary cap or getting lucky like the Rays last year things aren't always sunny like it is in New York. There's only 12 teams above the league average team salary and 10 of them are at least $10m or more over that average ($88m). Thats a player advantage on the free agent market. 7 of those 10 have $20m or more above that average amounting to 2 or 3 players. Plus, the players making over $10m, are generally all star caliber players that can make a difference. Keep compounding that to the $112m to the Yankees and thats a 11 all star caliber advantage.

While there should be a cap on how much you spend, there should also be a cap on how little you can spend to get everyone closer to being 15/15 on each side of the league average rather than 1 $112m over and the other end of the spectrum $42m under.

Sounds like a magical place man! Why doesn't anyone concentrate on things that are not only achievable but would make a difference. The amateur system and revenue sharing rules.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:13 PM
They should spend the money but you Yankee fans gotta realize that having the most money always gives the Yankees an unfair advantage on the free agent market. Some NFL, NBA, and even NHL teams support the little guy so it should be the same way in baseball. Just because Pittsburgh can't draw the revenue doesn't mean they shouldn't have the right to put a competitive team on the field. If the small market teams could keep their players and stay competitive they'll start to draw some revenue but without help of a salary cap or getting lucky like the Rays last year things aren't always sunny like it is in New York. There's only 12 teams above the league average team salary and 10 of them are at least $10m or more over that average ($88m). Thats a player advantage on the free agent market. 7 of those 10 have $20m or more above that average amounting to 2 or 3 players. Plus, the players making over $10m, are generally all star caliber players that can make a difference. Keep compounding that to the $112m to the Yankees and thats a 11 all star caliber advantage.

While there should be a cap on how much you spend, there should also be a cap on how little you can spend to get everyone closer to being 15/15 on each side of the league average rather than 1 $112m over and the other end of the spectrum $42m under.

That's an argument that some people just don't understand, but you're absolutely right.

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:17 PM
That's an argument that some people just don't understand, but you're absolutely right.

That's a revenue sharing argument, not a salary cap argument. You don't have to get the players to agree to revenue sharing, thus making it possible.

Revenue sharing/fixing amateur system = possible!

Salary cap = not possible!

It's pretty easy.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:18 PM
And I disagree, I think if enough owners demanded it than it could possibly happen, so where do we go from here.

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:22 PM
And I disagree, I think if enough owners demanded it than it could possibly happen, so where do we go from here.

I just can't imagine a scenario in which the players would agree to anything that caps their salary potential.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:27 PM
Let's just remember one thing, The MLBPA is powerful, but the owners control everything, if they wanted one bad enough, it would happen.

marques724
11-02-2009, 04:43 PM
Let's just remember one thing, The MLBPA is powerful, but the owners control everything, if they wanted one bad enough, it would happen.

But the dirty little secret is they don't really want one either

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
But the dirty little secret is they don't really want one either

What if you are a player heading into free agency, your about to cash in and wamm salary cap.. A lot of figures will change in the amount you thought you would be getting.. the players wouldnt want this, at the end of the day the players are the ones playing not the owners..

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Let's just remember one thing, The MLBPA is powerful, but the owners control everything, if they wanted one bad enough, it would happen.

The owners don't control the players, the players have the right to organize and strike and that is what they would do. Then the owners would lose their ***** for something that they probably don't even give a **** about. Baseball is making money now, they won't do anything stupid to jeapordize that. Not again.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
What I've been saying is that multiple owners want one already and if more of them do (which will happen when these teams won't be able to fill up the stadium anymore) then Bud will have to do something.

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:49 PM
What I've been saying is that multiple owners want one already and if more of them do (which will happen when these teams won't be able to fill up the stadium anymore) then Bud will have to do something.

I don't think multiple owners want one, multiple owners want to say they want one for leverage in negotiations.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:50 PM
I guess we'll see in ten years, the Orioles attendance has gone down 20,000 a game since 1997, the Indians has gone down 15,000 and multiple other teams have gone down at least 5,000 but the owners are going to sit back and take this, right?

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 04:53 PM
I guess we'll see in ten years, the Orioles attendance has gone down 20,000 a game since 1997, the Indians has gone down 15,000 and multiple other teams have gone down at least 5,000 but the owners are going to sit back and take this, right?

No they wont they will just sell off, it happens in every sport. Then a new owner comes in with ambition and actually puts some of his money into the team. Its happened before.

donnie23
11-02-2009, 04:54 PM
I guess we'll see in ten years, the Orioles attendance has gone down 20,000 a game since 1997, the Indians has gone down 15,000 and multiple other teams have gone down at least 5,000 but the owners are going to sit back and take this, right?

Overall MLB attendence has gone up. Considerably.

VRP723
11-02-2009, 04:59 PM
But some teams (guess which ones) have gone dramatically down.

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 05:02 PM
But some teams (guess which ones) have gone dramatically down.

The ones that the Yankees keep alive with luxery tax? humm...

Ralf Jones
11-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Oh so were talking salary cap again?
:horse::horse::horse::horse::horse::horse::horse: :horse::horse:

DieHardColtsfan
11-02-2009, 05:22 PM
Oh so were talking salary cap again?
:horse::horse::horse::horse::horse::horse::horse: :horse::horse:

Exactly..

Jamiecballer
11-02-2009, 07:02 PM
Why is this year different from last year? The Yankees did not increase their payroll. Oh, I forgot the sour grapes argument.

i think the reason for this is because when it does work out for the yanks it's just a reminder that if you guys had a top notch GM the rest of the division would have no chance at all.