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View Full Version : Is Shaq Hurting the Cavs?



Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 09:55 PM
Feel like the Cavs where better off with Z at center not Shaq, thoughts?

Their 0-2, I know its early but they don't look better.

Rome
10-28-2009, 09:57 PM
Only one game so far. Their not gonna be perfect every night.

sofargone
10-28-2009, 09:59 PM
hes not helping them thats for sure

Raps08-09 Champ
10-28-2009, 10:01 PM
2 games into the season.

Ask this a month from now.

He doesn't seem to be affecting Lebron like everyone said though.

Bishnoff
10-28-2009, 10:03 PM
Yes, and speaking as a Suns fan I knew that it was a bad move on the Cavs part to pick up Shaq.

clutchski
10-28-2009, 10:05 PM
I think he does help them, but not that much more than Big-Z playing heavy minutes.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-28-2009, 10:08 PM
He had 3 great defensive big man against him with Boston and he wasn't going to do much with Bargnani at the perimeter.

That's the only reason he isn't as effective as people expected.

Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 10:12 PM
He had 3 great defensive big man against him with Boston and he wasn't going to do much with Bargnani at the perimeter.

That's the only reason he isn't as effective as people expected.

Well one of the biggest reasons the Cavs lost to the Magic was the fact that they had no one to guard a PF like Rashard Lewis, and now the Celtics have Rasheed to do the same and the Cavs bring in Shaq to solve their problems? IMO bringing in Shaq was as dumb as bringing Shaq to Phoenix.

ManRam
10-28-2009, 10:16 PM
He obviously hasn't made them better...but their 0-2 start is far from his fault. It's the rest of the supporting cast. Whether they haven't gelled, or are just off...they're struggling, a lot.

I mean, it's either him or Z. Shaq is in no way shape or form worse than Z was last year. He can't hurt them that much, if at all.

itsripcity32
10-28-2009, 10:18 PM
cavs are bad cause they lost kuester

Teeboy1487
10-28-2009, 10:20 PM
He obviously hasn't made them better...but their 0-2 start is far from his fault. It's the rest of the supporting cast. Whether they haven't gelled, or are just off...they're struggling, a lot.

I mean, it's either him or Z. Shaq is in no way shape or form worse than Z was last year. He can't hurt them that much, if at all. I agree. Shaq is not the blame here. It's only been two games. Still, I hope people are not expecting a 37 year old shaq to solve all the cavs' problems from last year.

B.JenningsMVP
10-28-2009, 10:21 PM
Cavs: 0-2

chicago lulz
10-28-2009, 10:22 PM
He obviously hasn't made them better...but their 0-2 start is far from his fault. It's the rest of the supporting cast. Whether they haven't gelled, or are just off...they're struggling, a lot.

I mean, it's either him or Z. Shaq is in no way shape or form worse than Z was last year. He can't hurt them that much, if at all.

Pretty much this. It's still early.

Bishnoff
10-28-2009, 10:23 PM
Well one of the biggest reasons the Cavs lost to the Magic was the fact that they had no one to guard a PF like Rashard Lewis, and now the Celtics have Rasheed to do the same and the Cavs bring in Shaq to solve their problems? IMO bringing in Shaq was as dumb as bringing Shaq to Phoenix.

Ding. You hit the nail on the head.

Sly Guy
10-28-2009, 10:24 PM
it's still early. I've watched both games, and I have to say shaq's looked pretty good offensively, but guarding more mobile centers might become a problem.

Raps exposed big Z and Shaq with front court quickness tonight.

MTar786
10-28-2009, 10:26 PM
He obviously hasn't made them better...but their 0-2 start is far from his fault. It's the rest of the supporting cast. Whether they haven't gelled, or are just off...they're struggling, a lot.

I mean, it's either him or Z. Shaq is in no way shape or form worse than Z was last year. He can't hurt them that much, if at all.

i totally agree here.
the only place shaq needs to get better at right now is his defense.. he needs to figure out where to be. he's on a new team. give him atleast 10 games.
On the offensive end u can kinda blame lebron for not getting shaq involved as much as he should be doing.
Lebron should be smart and try to get shaq as invlolved as possible right now at the start of the season. they need shaq to be confident. Lebron throws it to shaq at time when shaq has no chance at posting up and scoring. the lane is kind of clogged when it gets to him.
lebron needs to space out the floor.. all the others need to space out to the three point line. have one guy as a cutter (lebron) and play inside out to start the game.. then slowly phase back into lebrons game. Lebron doesnt seem so willing. but he'll have to get used to it. I've known shaq as a player since he was with us (LA) and the one thing lebron needs to know about this guy is that if u dont give him opportunity in the post then he gets frustrated and gets lazy on D. And from wat ive seen so far.. shaqs D is the only thing u can argue that hurts this team. oh and mike brown isnt helping much when he puts shaq and big Z in at the same time. This isnt nba 2k10

ManRam
10-28-2009, 10:27 PM
This is all it boils down to.

The only way he makes them worse is if he's worse than Z was last year. He isn't any slower, he doesn't clog the lane any more than Z did/does. They aren't worse with him. They just have a lot of new players they have to get working together.

heyman321
10-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Holy. Crap. the Raptors won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 10:29 PM
This is all it boils down to.

The only way he makes them worse is if he's worse than Z was last year. He isn't any slower, he doesn't clog the lane any more than Z did/does. They aren't worse with him. They just have a lot of new players they have to get working together.

You really hate Z lol. At least he can hit a jump shot:hide:

GspLAL
10-28-2009, 10:29 PM
This is all it boils down to.

The only way he makes them worse is if he's worse than Z was last year. He isn't any slower, he doesn't clog the lane any more than Z did/does. They aren't worse with him. They just have a lot of new players they have to get working together.

Actually he does because Z can pop out and shoot the jumper.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-28-2009, 10:32 PM
Well one of the biggest reasons the Cavs lost to the Magic was the fact that they had no one to guard a PF like Rashard Lewis, and now the Celtics have Rasheed to do the same and the Cavs bring in Shaq to solve their problems? IMO bringing in Shaq was as dumb as bringing Shaq to Phoenix.

They have Varejao at PF. Last year, they had Varejao on Howard because Ilgauskas was being pushed around. Shaq isn't gonna stop Howard but would do better than Ilgauskas. That moves Varejao on Rashard. They can also play Moon on Rashard who would do better than Pavlovic

And you still can't judge 2 games in.

I mean they can go on a 10 game winning streak after and be 10 and 2 while Shaq averages 15 and 10.

Then you'd be eating back your words.

Just let things calm down and wait some more.

JNA17
10-28-2009, 10:33 PM
Yes. i said this like 10 million times that shaq will only lead the cavs to their downfall, and already their 0-2 :pity:

MTar786
10-28-2009, 10:34 PM
its a lose-lose situation for shaq.. if he plays average and the cavs dont win a title. all the lebron *** kissers will be like.. lebron has no help. and if shaq averaged 16 and 9 and mo made another all star appearance and the cavs still lose.. they'll all say.. man lebron doesnt get any help. his teamates choked!


Imagine the cavs win 66 games and only lose 2 home games all season! Cleveland fans will be like 'WE have the best team, supporting cast and player' but then if they lose in the playoffs they'll say lbj had no help and his team sucks.. Oh wait.. nm that already happened =/

jimm120
10-28-2009, 10:36 PM
Feel like the Cavs where better off with Z at center not Shaq, thoughts?

Their 0-2, I know its early but they don't look better.

I don't know if he makes them worse, BUT I would just like to say that the Cavs were NOT as good as their record last year indicated. With or without Shaq, the Cavs would have been worse this year.

Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 10:36 PM
They have Varejao at PF. Last year, they had Varejao on Howard because Ilgauskas was being pushed around. Shaq isn't gonna stop Howard but would do better than Ilgauskas. That moves Varejao on Rashard. They can also play Moon on Rashard who would do better than Pavlovic

And you still can't judge 2 games in.

I mean they can go on a 10 game winning streak after and be 10 and 2 while Shaq averages 15 and 10.

Then you'd be eating back your words.

Just let things calm down and wait some more.

Varejao or Moon can't guard Rashard...

jim51990
10-28-2009, 10:36 PM
he doesnt hurt them having no pure scorer on the team beside lbj hurts them

Raps08-09 Champ
10-28-2009, 10:37 PM
Actually he does because Z can pop out and shoot the jumper.

Yea but they got Shaq for the post offense.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-28-2009, 10:38 PM
Varejao or Moon can't guard Rashard...

To a certain extent, they can.

They can also put Lebron on Rashard if they want because he doesn't have to worry about Turkoglu and they have Parker who can defend Carter.

rapswin98
10-28-2009, 10:38 PM
after watching the Raptor game, I have to say that he does make the cavs worse. Hes too slow and unathletic, he just has the size advantage. I mean he let Bargs go off him. I wonder how this going to be the answer against Howard.

Ebbs
10-28-2009, 10:48 PM
Better his prescense in the middle still counts for something! But z is prob the all around better player.

philab
10-28-2009, 10:49 PM
The Cavs haven't looked good, BUT . . .

This was the second of a back-to-back and on the road and against a potential playoff team in their first game.

It's 0-2. A loss to a great Celtics team in a hard-fought game and a loss to a perhaps good Raptors team the next night in Toronto. No real need to panic. The Cavs started 1-2 last year also.

deuces
10-28-2009, 10:50 PM
couldn't help but notice shaq riding the pine

lakers4sho
10-28-2009, 10:52 PM
This is all it boils down to.

The only way he makes them worse is if he's worse than Z was last year. He isn't any slower, he doesn't clog the lane any more than Z did/does. They aren't worse with him. They just have a lot of new players they have to get working together.

yah but Big Z can hit the midrange J pretty consistently, which allowed LeBron to do all sorts of pick and roll and pick and pops with him.

IDK if that will be the case with Shaq.

KayNti
10-28-2009, 10:52 PM
They are gunna be the same team like last year, maybe worse. Delonte West gone is gunna hurt. Everyone never expected the Cavs to be as good as they were this last year and now people know whats coming, they really dont have any plays all they do is watch Lebron go to work which isnt gunna work for another year... Shaq is slow and hurts there Defence

JordansBulls
10-28-2009, 10:54 PM
The thread and the poll are different questions.



In 1985 the Lakers started 0-2 and they were 3-5 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 1991 the Bulls started 0-3 and were 6-6 and ended 61-21 and won the title
In 1998 the Bulls started 8-7 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 2001 the Lakers started 3-3 and ended 56-26 and won the title
In 2006 the Heat started 10-10 and ended 52-30 and won the title
In 2007 the Mavs started 0-4 and ended 67-15 while the Suns started 1-5 and ended 61-21
In 2009 the Magic started 0-2 and ended 59-23


Why is everyone all over Cleveland because they lost the first game of the year at home to a championship caliber team?

SA5195
10-28-2009, 10:59 PM
The thread and the poll are different questions.



In 1985 the Lakers started 0-2 and they were 3-5 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 1991 the Bulls started 0-3 and were 6-6 and ended 61-21 and won the title
In 1998 the Bulls started 8-7 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 2001 the Lakers started 3-3 and ended 56-26 and won the title
In 2006 the Heat started 10-10 and ended 52-30 and won the title
In 2007 the Mavs started 0-4 and ended 67-15 while the Suns started 1-5 and ended 61-21
In 2009 the Magic started 0-2 and ended 59-23


Why is everyone all over Cleveland because they lost the first game of the year at home to a championship caliber team?

Not as big as those ones, but Raps 06-07. Started 2-8 and then ended up winning the Atlantic Division with 47 wins. So basiclly anything can happen.

Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 11:04 PM
The thread and the poll are different questions.



In 1985 the Lakers started 0-2 and they were 3-5 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 1991 the Bulls started 0-3 and were 6-6 and ended 61-21 and won the title
In 1998 the Bulls started 8-7 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 2001 the Lakers started 3-3 and ended 56-26 and won the title
In 2006 the Heat started 10-10 and ended 52-30 and won the title
In 2007 the Mavs started 0-4 and ended 67-15 while the Suns started 1-5 and ended 61-21
In 2009 the Magic started 0-2 and ended 59-23


Why is everyone all over Cleveland because they lost the first game of the year at home to a championship caliber team?

Well they only lost 2 game at home last year w/o Shaq:shrug:

philab
10-28-2009, 11:05 PM
Well they only lost 2 game at home last year w/o Shaq:shrug:

And they've only lost one this year. So . . . ?

JNA17
10-28-2009, 11:05 PM
The thread and the poll are different questions.



In 1985 the Lakers started 0-2 and they were 3-5 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 1991 the Bulls started 0-3 and were 6-6 and ended 61-21 and won the title
In 1998 the Bulls started 8-7 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 2001 the Lakers started 3-3 and ended 56-26 and won the title
In 2006 the Heat started 10-10 and ended 52-30 and won the title
In 2007 the Mavs started 0-4 and ended 67-15 while the Suns started 1-5 and ended 61-21
In 2009 the Magic started 0-2 and ended 59-23


Why is everyone all over Cleveland because they lost the first game of the year at home to a championship caliber team?

but here's the flaw, most of the teams u mentioned had pretty much the same team they did last season.

Example the heat, 2005 they had wade and shaq, etc. and in 2006 they mostly had the same team and did not really make any more changes.

2007, mavs basically had the same team as well as they did the season before. Same with the suns.

Bulls of course still had pippen and MJ, rodman, etc.

What i mean is, the cavs added 3 guys that pretty much changed their team dramatically, like shaq, which made big z a backup, and Anthony Parker, new starter while delonete west will be backup or right now he's just not playing.

While the teams u mentioned always had pretty much the same team

ink
10-28-2009, 11:08 PM
Yes, and speaking as a Suns fan I knew that it was a bad move on the Cavs part to pick up Shaq.

That was my reaction when the Cavs picked him up too.

ink
10-28-2009, 11:11 PM
Why is everyone all over Cleveland because they lost the first game of the year at home to a championship caliber team?

Because they turned right around and lost their second game to a team that many people didn't even pick to make the playoffs, and because Shaq's stat line was 12 and 7 with a -25 +/- rating.

I'm not saying the Cavs are toast or anything silly like that, just answering your question about why people are all over the Cavs.

That said, a lot of teams that struggle out of the gate pull it together and go on season long rampages, so people be careful about your predictions of their demise. :cool:

Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 11:13 PM
And they've only lost one this year. So . . . ?

There already halfway there that's the point.

MTar786
10-28-2009, 11:16 PM
but here's the flaw, most of the teams u mentioned had pretty much the same team they did last season.

Example the heat, 2005 they had wade and shaq, etc. and in 2006 they mostly had the same team and did not really make any more changes.

2007, mavs basically had the same team as well as they did the season before. Same with the suns.

Bulls of course still had pippen and MJ, rodman, etc.

What i mean is, the cavs added 3 guys that pretty much changed their team dramatically, like shaq, which made big z a backup, and Anthony Parker, new starter while delonete west will be backup or right now he's just not playing.

While the teams u mentioned always had pretty much the same team

ummm.. they had even more changes than this cavs team made
they lost damon jones, eddie jones, derek anderson etc.. and they added gary payton, jason williams, antoine walker, james posey
from 05 to 06 the heat had changed two of their starters (one of which was their 3rd best player/option) and 3 backup players. but i see what you're trying to say. it'll take some time adjusting to the new team they have.. it did with the heat. it does with every team

JNA17
10-28-2009, 11:18 PM
ummm.. they had even more changes than this cavs team made
they lost damon jones, eddie jones, derek anderson etc.. and they added gary payton, jason williams, antoine walker, james posey
from 05 to 06 the heat had changed two of their starters (one of which was their 3rd best player/option) and 3 backup players. but i see what you're trying to say. it'll take some time adjusting to the new team they have.. it did with the heat. it does with every team

oh i forgot about that, my bad :)

chicagocubsfan
10-28-2009, 11:22 PM
Didn't the bulls start 0-9 and still make the playoffs one year?

king james
10-28-2009, 11:24 PM
of course fat boy is bad 4 them he slows the team down and makes them play a game that doesn't work for that team.

RaiderLakersA's
10-28-2009, 11:26 PM
In 1985 the Lakers started 0-2 and they were 3-5 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 1991 the Bulls started 0-3 and were 6-6 and ended 61-21 and won the title
In 1998 the Bulls started 8-7 and ended 62-20 and won the title
In 2001 the Lakers started 3-3 and ended 56-26 and won the title
In 2006 the Heat started 10-10 and ended 52-30 and won the title
In 2007 the Mavs started 0-4 and ended 67-15 while the Suns started 1-5 and ended 61-21
In 2009 the Magic started 0-2 and ended 59-23


It is too early to call it...the Cavs aren't dead...but I think even they would say they expected better success against potential rivals for the crown.

The Cavs are going to need another scorer, and one who can create his own shot AND play a little defense. If they can get either Rip or Jax, they should do it.

MagicBucsSox
10-28-2009, 11:27 PM
SHAQ'S NEW MOTTO " get a WIN from the king"

_KB24_
10-28-2009, 11:29 PM
I think this shouldn't even be a poll. You brought in Shaq for his defensive and interior presence against a "Dwight, Bynum, Perkins, Duncan". He has actually looked really good 2 GAMES into the season. They have much better depth now and I think this is all just chemistry issue. My biggest issue was Shaq affecting Lebrons ability to get to the rim, but Bron has looked good 2 GAMES into the season. As I am emphasizing, let them play for now and we'll ultimately determine when there ready.

Wiz kids
10-28-2009, 11:30 PM
I think people are misinterpreting the thread.

Its is Shaq making the Cavs better or worse, not are the Cavs in trouble of not making the playoffs. I know there 0-2 and I know they'll make the playoffs.

Jahari Kavi
10-28-2009, 11:31 PM
so far it appears to be worse..

JordansBulls
10-28-2009, 11:31 PM
but here's the flaw, most of the teams u mentioned had pretty much the same team they did last season.

Example the heat, 2005 they had wade and shaq, etc. and in 2006 they mostly had the same team and did not really make any more changes.

2007, mavs basically had the same team as well as they did the season before. Same with the suns.

Bulls of course still had pippen and MJ, rodman, etc.

What i mean is, the cavs added 3 guys that pretty much changed their team dramatically, like shaq, which made big z a backup, and Anthony Parker, new starter while delonete west will be backup or right now he's just not playing.

While the teams u mentioned always had pretty much the same team

Bulls in 1998 had Pippen out the first 35 games and we started off .500 for the first 15 and then we were 24-11 before he came back. In 1991 our team was the same as 1990.

JordansBulls
10-28-2009, 11:37 PM
Cavs played the Celtics at home who are at least as good as the Lakers team that beat Cleveland in Cleveland last year and who are better than the Orlando team that beat Cleveland in Cleveland in game 1 last playoffs.

Also the Cavs went to Toronto who has improved with Bargs getting better and now having Hedo on the team. It's not like the Cavs are losing to the Kings or Knicks or someone like that.

RaiderLakersA's
10-28-2009, 11:38 PM
of course fat boy is bad 4 them he slows the team down and makes them play a game that doesn't work for that team.

Is there really a team that a 38-year old Shaq could play for, have instant success, yet not be a liability, either defensively or via "hack-a-Shaq"?

My answer to the poll is "neither" right now, but I think down the road when it counts, the general consensus will be that Shaq and LeBron will fall far short of being the Magic and Kareem tandem of this generation. The Cavs still need one more player, in my opinion.

Halladay
10-28-2009, 11:42 PM
Shaq and Lebron seemed to really struggle tonight atleast playing together. Shaq is an old man now, he's more of a garbage man then the old Shaq but I'm not sure him and Lebron will really work. I know it's just one game but with big Z in their the Cavs looked a hell of alot better. Hell, tonight when the Cavs went small in the second half and they were down 20, they came all the way back but when they went big again, they dropped off again.

TheMicrowave
10-28-2009, 11:43 PM
So far Shaq has not helped the Cavs. It has only been two games so it is not saying much.

Talick
10-28-2009, 11:50 PM
SHAQ'S NEW MOTTO " get a WIN from the king"

Edit: Get a ring form the King

WITZ
10-28-2009, 11:50 PM
Shaq gives the cavs a low post scorer so that makes them better not to mention how much worse this would be with wallace and pavlovic.

superkegger
10-28-2009, 11:54 PM
Shaq is not the answer or the problem.

The problem remains Mike Brown and his total lack of understanding on how to run an NBA offense around a talent like LeBron James. It's not that he's a bad coach, it's just that it takes a special kind of coach to coach a mega star like LeBron, and Mike Brown is not that guy. He never has been, and that's the problem. The Cavs will be alright, an 0-2 start is nothing to start panicking over.

The fact that the lost Kuester, and that Mike Brown is still the head coach is the problem.

Raph12
10-28-2009, 11:58 PM
I called it before it began, Shaq and the Cavs will not mesh, mark my words...

Gibby
10-29-2009, 12:03 AM
i think he makes them better but just slightly. i think shaq can matchup well against some teams but not against others.

Chronz
10-29-2009, 12:04 AM
I knew something wasnt right when Shaq was listed the starter. Shaq should be a valuable shot creator for the bench, but you have to start AV and he and Shaq dont mesh at all. Big Z and Shaq can coexist, but only on 1 end, them 2 together only creates fast breaks for the other team.

Riley was smart enough to know this in Miami when he refused to pair Alonzo and Shaq together, and that was ZO and a YOUNGER SHAQ. Mike Brown has got to be the most desperate coach in the league right now with the ploys hes using. Why would you mess with one of the most effective lineups in the league, they miss Delonte but he alone wont solve their problems.

Lost Art
10-29-2009, 12:07 AM
I was actually shocked that the Cavs won so many games last season. IMO they're a 45 win team. The only thing that won them so many games last year was their lock down D, their offense has never been anything special.

heyman321
10-29-2009, 12:07 AM
Raptors won1!!!111!!!

NiTEFuRY
10-29-2009, 12:08 AM
I believe Shaq is a better option than Z. Shaq gives you garbage points and is not afraid to patrol the paint - and change shots.

stawka
10-29-2009, 12:13 AM
The sky is falling!

superkegger
10-29-2009, 12:13 AM
I knew something wasnt right when Shaq was listed the starter. Shaq should be a valuable shot creator for the bench, but you have to start AV and he and Shaq dont mesh at all. Big Z and Shaq can coexist, but only on 1 end, them 2 together only creates fast breaks for the other team.

Riley was smart enough to know this in Miami when he refused to pair Alonzo and Shaq together, and that was ZO and a YOUNGER SHAQ. Mike Brown has got to be the most desperate coach in the league right now with the ploys hes using. Why would you mess with one of the most effective lineups in the league, they miss Delonte but he alone wont solve their problems.

Of course he's desperate. His coaching ability is basicaly going to go a long way to decide if LeBron stays in Cleveland. You know that's got to be in the back of his mind, and while it doesn't affect all of his coaching decisions, it has to be there in the back of his mind that he's got to coach his *** off to get this team a title, in order for Bron to stay.

But I've said it for years, Mike Brown is simply not the right coach for LeBron. He doesn't have the "it" factor or whatever. There's a reason that only 8 coaches have won titles in the past 25 years. All but Doc Rivers and Larry Brown winning at least 2 titles. It takes a special coach to coach special talent, and Mike Brown just doesn't have it.

Mr. NBA
10-29-2009, 12:15 AM
he clogs the lane and only puts up an avg of 10 points?

he's still the big cactus.

shaq just needs to retire..you knew this was gonna happen

it's not like shaq was gonna be back to his prime once he reached cleveland.

spd264
10-29-2009, 12:18 AM
SHAQ'S NEW MOTTO " get a WIN from the king"

hahahahaha

Chronz
10-29-2009, 12:21 AM
I was actually shocked that the Cavs won so many games last season. IMO they're a 45 win team. The only thing that won them so many games last year was their lock down D, their offense has never been anything special.

Their offense was ranked in the top echelon last year, trust me it was a magical year on both ends. But yea their defense looks pathetic without it, they will truly be a 45 win team, maybe 50 if Bron keeps their D respectable.

ajj22
10-29-2009, 12:21 AM
Shaq just really doesn't help the Cavs at all to handle teams that run the pick and roll a lot. I haven't watched either of their 2 games so far, but I would guess that Boston and Toronto, having ideal personnel for the pick and roll, ran it quite a bit. Can anyone who actually watched the games confirm or deny that? If so, was that how they got a good chunk of their points? I get the feeling that Shaq will have some good games this year, and that Cleveland will make easy work of teams that don't match up well. The problem will come from teams like Boston, Toronto, Orlando, etc. that have a lot of versatility with big men. Shaq just can't help with that problem, and neither does Mike Brown.

philab
10-29-2009, 12:24 AM
I was actually shocked that the Cavs won so many games last season. IMO they're a 45 win team. The only thing that won them so many games last year was their lock down D, their offense has never been anything special.

This is pretty dumb.

First, defense is half the game. It counts just as much as offense.
Second, removing a team's great strength and then calling them a "45-win team" is pretty ridiculous. Hell, that might even be a compliment. How about this: "The only thing that won the Lakers so many games last year was their efficient offense; they'd be a 45-win team otherwise" -- sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it?

Finally, the Cavs aren't a 45-win team. They've won 50, 50, 45 (0-8 without LeBron), and 66 over the past four seasons. How that looks like a 45-win team to you is mind-boggling.

Wiz kids
10-29-2009, 12:32 AM
he clogs the lane and only puts up an avg of 10 points?

he's still the big cactus.

shaq just needs to retire..you knew this was gonna happen

it's not like shaq was gonna be back to his prime once he reached cleveland.

The only reason he's still playing is b/c of $$$

Mr. NBA
10-29-2009, 12:33 AM
The only reason he's still playing is b/c of $$$

yes, but that's not the biggest reason.

his biggest reason is he wants to one up on kobe on the rings category.

he wants to bandwagon a championship caliber team so he can get his

fat ring on his fat finger.

if the big sucktus got 5 rings that would make his elite position with the likes of magic johnson.

and for the big sucktus to end his career with just ONLY 4 rings while kobe will be on his 5th

is just inexcusable for a man of his size.

he'll just make another excuse to go to boston, orlando, san antonio, or LA to get his 5th.

he WILL ONLY GO TO championship caliber teams.

Wiz kids
10-29-2009, 12:36 AM
yes, but that's not the biggest reason.

his biggest reason is he wants to one up on kobe on the rings category.

he wants to bandwagon a championship caliber team so he can get his

fat ring on his fat finger.

if the big sucktus got 5 rings that would make his elite position with the likes of magic johnson.

and for the big sucktus to end his career with just ONLY 4 rings while kobe will be on his 5th

is just inexcusable for a man of his size.

Nah feel like everything he does is for $$$ now, like his tv show he had.

Mr. NBA
10-29-2009, 12:38 AM
Nah feel like everything he does is for $$$ now, like his tv show he had.

you think it's for money? LMAO

is that why cleveland is paying his *** that much. He's made so much more in his career.

He just wants a ring.

like HIS MOTTO "WIN A RING FOR THE KING"

he said that not for the king but for himself.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY

Raph12
10-29-2009, 12:54 AM
you think it's for money? LMAO

is that why cleveland is paying his *** that much. He's made so much more in his career.

He just wants a ring.

like HIS MOTTO "WIN A RING FOR THE KING"

he said that not for the king but for himself.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY

In his motto, "win a ring for the king" Shaq is actually referring to himself, he thinks he's the king of the world, he's a very selfish player and only does things to make himself look good. Shaq will make the Cavs a 50-win team, they will get beaten by the Magic or a healthy Celtics in the playoffs. Hell I'm starting to think the East only has a big 2 (Celtics and Magic) instead of big 3. Like I said, Shaq and the Cavs will NOT mesh, book it.

Mr. NBA
10-29-2009, 12:58 AM
In his motto, "win a ring for the king" Shaq is actually referring to himself, he thinks he's the king of the world, he's a very selfish player and only does things to make himself look good. Shaq will make the Cavs a 50-win team, they will get beaten by the Magic or a healthy Celtics in the playoffs. Hell I'm starting to think the East only has a big 2 (Celtics and Magic) instead of big 3. Like I said, Shaq and the Cavs will NOT mesh, book it.

see i knew people agree with me.

Shaq is SO on the DECLINE and why do people keep giving him a chance?

I think getting Michael Jordan out of retirement is a better opportunity
than having shaq play for the cavs.

an old michael jordan with LeBron is a much better idea i think. :rolleyes:

La11
10-29-2009, 01:05 AM
They have Varejao at PF. Last year, they had Varejao on Howard because Ilgauskas was being pushed around. Shaq isn't gonna stop Howard but would do better than Ilgauskas. That moves Varejao on Rashard. They can also play Moon on Rashard who would do better than Pavlovic

And you still can't judge 2 games in.

I mean they can go on a 10 game winning streak after and be 10 and 2 while Shaq averages 15 and 10.

Then you'd be eating back your words.

Just let things calm down and wait some more.

Moon will jump at every pump fake rashard makes and will outsmart him. His basketball IQ is not that good

La11
10-29-2009, 01:07 AM
Who thinks the Project of Shaq will get Lebron leave to one of the New York teams?

Lakersfan2483
10-29-2009, 01:12 AM
I don't think the move makes the Cavs worse, however I don't see them winning a title either. At this stage in Shaq's career, it's going to be tough for him to be as impactful on the game night in and night out. Also, the Cavs' offensive system leaves a lot to be desired.....

shep33
10-29-2009, 01:18 AM
This team needs time, they got a bunch of new faces, and Diesel is only 1 of them. In my opinion, they're lucky to get Shaq, because without him, they'd have absolutely no chance against the Celts or Magic. I have Boston making the finals against the playoffs, but once the Cavs get into sync they'll be fine. Heck, they might even get shaq to come off the bench later on... he would dominate 2nd unit front lines.

Or... we can hope the Cavs miss the playoffs so LBJ can go to the Knicks

DaaBoTownSox
10-29-2009, 01:29 AM
I don't think the move makes the Cavs worse, however I don't see them winning a title either. At this stage in Shaq's career, it's going to be tough for him to be as impactful on the game night in and night out. Also, the Cavs' offensive system leaves a lot to be desired.....

Pretty well said.

TheKing23
10-29-2009, 01:32 AM
I don't think we should judge how Shaq or the Cavs are playing as a whole just yet... Give them a good 15-20 games. It's not Shaq or LeBron's fault they have lost their first two... LeBron is averaging 31/8/10 and Shaq 11/9. You've got to look at the supporting cast and you see why they've struggled:

Mo Williams: 7-22 (31 FG%)
Anthony Parker: 7-21 (33 FG%)
Anderson Varejao: 3-14 (21 FG%)
Zydrunas Ilgauskas: 3-9 (33 FG%)
Daniel Gibson: 5-13 (38 FG%)

When you only have two players shooting over 40% you aren't going to win against anyone, and I don't think all of their shooting woes can or should be blamed on Shaq.

kyubi256
10-29-2009, 02:03 AM
80 games left in the season... let them gel some more

tr4shb0t
10-29-2009, 02:58 AM
Cavs have a weak confidence as a team. They really need a strong leader or something. But I don't think Shaq is hurting the Cavs. It's common for teams to lose 2 or 3 games in a row after a tough loss. They will gain back confidence after a home game or two and then they will be fine I think.

SteveNash
10-29-2009, 06:49 AM
As I said when Shaq was traded, LeBron's game needs to get better.

Didn't watch the Raptor game but LeBron was only really successful against the Celtics going 1 on 5. Which just isn't a recipe for success and if LeBron is just going to do that, they'd of been better off with Ben Wallace.

Delonte West coming back should help and as the team goes on their should be better chemistry. Right now though, I think I should probably change my prediction of the Cavs beating the Magic/losing to the Celtics. I don't think they'll be able to beat either.

Mr.ATLHawks
10-29-2009, 08:48 AM
Whoa@this thread....2 Games? Big Z being the better all around player then Shaq? Are you ******* high? I guess nobody saw the 1st quarter against Boston when they took off in the beginning. When did Boston start coming back? When they put Big Z slow footed *** back on the court. Shaq will make Cleveland better. The Guards are the problem with this team right now not Shaq. Mo Williams IS NOT a PG and should be a sixth man ala Ben Gordon, Jason Terry. He cant guard anybody, hell even Ray Allen(jump shooter) was backing him down. Delonte West is out with depression...smh. Anthony Parker has been playing hard...Lebron has been Lebron. Nothing wrong with this Cavs team. They need to stop monitoring Shaqs minutes so damn much and put his *** on the floor. When Delonte comes back I think they will ok.

West
Parker
Lebron
Varajeo
O'Neal

Mo-6th Man...That gives them the best defensive team they can put on the floor and not just a team of damn jump shooters. They settling too much for the jump shots..they need to attack the basket.

Mr.ATLHawks
10-29-2009, 09:03 AM
They should rename this website www.letsseehowfastwecanjumpthegun.com

kikeyanez
10-29-2009, 09:23 AM
trade shaq to golden state for stephen jackson an andrius biebrins

sciferguy
10-29-2009, 09:40 AM
i like shaq on that team....he presents soo many problems for the opposing team....he can still score, and he can still block shots and create foul problems for his opponent....the problem i see with cleveland is they were playing great team ball all of last year...but as they went deeper and deeper in the playoffs.....they became more and more dependent on Lebron....and we all know that didnt carry too well...it seems like they are in that same mentality...i dont know if its lebron wanting to pad the stats more or the coach only wanting the ball in lebrons hands....1 player cant win a championship...kobe learned that, Dwade is learning that, AI still doesnt understand that...the list goes on and on with that subject

Derick713
10-29-2009, 09:50 AM
Shaquille O'Neal isn't the problem. Maurice Williams has declined. He isn't the same player. The Cavs don't have enough offense to match other teams if Mo Williams can score around 18-20 PPG.

The Cavs might be suffering from a lack of fire due to what they did last year. They might be taking things for granted. This year the Cavs have a target on their back. They have a lot of adjustments to make. They need Delonte West back.

The Cavs don't have enough firepower. LeBron needs someone who takeover the offense.

boms-4
10-29-2009, 10:00 AM
based on 2 games?

pimpdaddy
10-29-2009, 10:08 AM
Shaq is slowing down eveything like their fastbreak. They will be in the lower 8 seeds come playoff time

Hawkeye15
10-29-2009, 10:08 AM
The Cavs will be fine. They got him simply to stop or limit Dwight in the playoffs. Dwight absolutely killed them. They needed someone to stop him from turning and dunking. Nothing more.

krest213
10-29-2009, 10:22 AM
no net yet. in due time though

the life
10-29-2009, 10:44 AM
The Cavs will be fine. They got him simply to stop or limit Dwight in the playoffs. Dwight absolutely killed them. They needed someone to stop him from turning and dunking. Nothing more.

yes but they need to get back in the finals first. shaq might be useful for that series purpose but until then he does not fit well.

JayW_1023
10-29-2009, 10:56 AM
Both the Raptors and Celtics have frontlines of athletic, tall bigs who can hit the perimeter shot...KG and Sheed, Bosh and Bargs...I think these teams can exploit Shaqs inability to defend the pick and roll....which obviously remains an issue for the Cavs.

They might have to play LeBron at the 4 and Varejao at the 5 more than they like playing teams with athletic bigs who can face up and shoot the rock.

Jah king
10-29-2009, 11:19 AM
Feel like the Cavs where better off with Z at center not Shaq, thoughts?

Their 0-2, I know its early but they don't look better.
Not only SHACK , BUT ALSO HIS FAT SLOW ***...

B2B
10-29-2009, 11:22 AM
of course fat boy is bad 4 them he slows the team down and makes them play a game that doesn't work for that team.

+1

Cavs won 60+ games last year based on having good chemistry, only to turn around & change not one but several players.

Tmac,lt,berkman
10-29-2009, 11:29 AM
i have said it from the beginning he makes them worse

blah-blah
10-29-2009, 11:40 AM
give them some time to build chemistry

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-29-2009, 12:08 PM
still early.

pebloemer
10-29-2009, 12:42 PM
Both the Raptors and Celtics have frontlines of athletic, tall bigs who can hit the perimeter shot...KG and Sheed, Bosh and Bargs...I think these teams can exploit Shaqs inability to defend the pick and roll....which obviously remains an issue for the Cavs.

They might have to play LeBron at the 4 and Varejao at the 5 more than they like playing teams with athletic bigs who can face up and shoot the rock.

Agreed. Sometimes it is as simple as matchups and learning what adjustments to make. The Raptor's ran out on the fast break very well while Shaq and Z were both slower to get back. Meanwhile they did well to contain the Cavs size in the paint and forced jump shots. Cavs made adjustments and came back, but 4th quarter of the second game in a back to back with a ruckus crowd and energetic team to be faced is a tough situation to be in. It is game 2, LeBron and Cavs will respond.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2009, 12:49 PM
yes but they need to get back in the finals first. shaq might be useful for that series purpose but until then he does not fit well.

its all about matchups in the playoffs, and teh only team that gave Cleveland major problems was Orlando due to Dwight. With the C's healthy, they now have another challenge, but I really think people are reading into their 0-2 start too much. They will come around. They won't win 66 games again, but that isn't important. They have the best player, and they now have at least a semi neutrailizer for the player who killed them.

Raph12
10-29-2009, 12:49 PM
The Cavs will be fine. They got him simply to stop or limit Dwight in the playoffs. Dwight absolutely killed them. They needed someone to stop him from turning and dunking. Nothing more.

What if Orlando finishes with the #1 seed and Cleveland plays Boston in the second round? seems like a pretty dumb plan to throw Shaq in to stop Howard if they don't get to that point in the first place. Btw they still don't have an answer for Rashard Lewis, he tore them up last season no matter who guarded him...

Hawkeye15
10-29-2009, 12:51 PM
What if Orlando finishes with the #1 seed and Cleveland plays Boston in the second round? seems like a pretty dumb plan to throw Shaq in to stop Howard if they don't get to that point in the first place. Btw they still don't have an answer for Rashard Lewis, he tore them up last season no matter who guarded him...

Boston presents other problems. And many are forgetting Shaq will probably get in better shape as the season goes on, and will still be valuable in the playoffs. Again, people are reading into their 0-2 start way too much. If they show over the first 30 games that their strengths of defensive efficiency and rebounding have diminished due to Shaqs presence, then you can start calling them out for a bad move.

Storch
10-29-2009, 12:53 PM
The Cavs will be fine. They got him simply to stop or limit Dwight in the playoffs. Dwight absolutely killed them. They needed someone to stop him from turning and dunking. Nothing more.

shaq is not the answer to that problem. dwight runs up and down the court to get early position in the post and shaq wont be able to keep up. sounds like a fail if u ask me.

8kobe24
10-29-2009, 12:55 PM
A player like Shaq needs shooters around him. The attention he brings is towards the paint, and that can only hurt lebron because his game is based on slashing to the hoop. With shaq, those lanes would not be as open as they used to be. With Big Z, the lanes where there for lebron cuz Big Z was not always on the low block.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2009, 12:55 PM
shaq is not the answer to that problem. dwight runs up and down the court to get early position in the post and shaq wont be able to keep up. sounds like a fail if u ask me.

not in the playoffs they don't. The Cavs are an elite rebounding team, and you need to win the battle on the boards to run. And Shaq isn't going to stop him for 40 mpg. he is simply there to contest and make it a bit harder for Dwight to control the paint on both ends for an entire game.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2009, 12:56 PM
A player like Shaq needs shooters around him. The attention he brings is towards the paint, and that can only hurt lebron because his game is based on slashing to the hoop. With shaq, those lanes would not be as open as they used to be. With Big Z, the lanes where there for lebron cuz Big Z was not always on the low block.

this is the only reservation I have about the move. And the reason it will cost them some regular season games. Shaq is a lane clogger. LeBron is a penetrator. Not a dream matchup

bagwell368
10-29-2009, 12:57 PM
I got blasted for saying Shaq wan't going to be the big fix everyone said. He is out of shape and out of focus at the moment. See where he is in March. The issue might be that a healthy Celts team takes the #1 seed, and with it, any major chance the Cavs have at the Finals. Worse if they finish 3rd - which is very possible unless Shaq shapes up by mid Nov. I'd bet against that.

Did you see Sheed and KG on the floor at the end of the game? They looked good and neither of them is near peak yet either.

LA_Raiders
10-29-2009, 01:46 PM
this is the only reservation I have about the move. And the reason it will cost them some regular season games. Shaq is a lane clogger. LeBron is a penetrator. Not a dream matchup

agree...

Raph12
10-29-2009, 02:01 PM
Boston presents other problems. And many are forgetting Shaq will probably get in better shape as the season goes on, and will still be valuable in the playoffs. Again, people are reading into their 0-2 start way too much. If they show over the first 30 games that their strengths of defensive efficiency and rebounding have diminished due to Shaqs presence, then you can start calling them out for a bad move.

I guess, but I called it a bad move the second I heard about it, so technically I'm not reading into the 2 losses I just feel that Shaq is a defensive liability at this point in his career... but I'll still give them the first 30 games before saying "I told you so"

Ace33Bone
10-29-2009, 02:56 PM
I think it is going to take some getting adjusting to... but all in all Shaq will help the Cavs I do not know if he is going to exactly what they need to be the best team in the league but he is still a force in the paint and will help them improve eventually

Slimsim
10-29-2009, 03:15 PM
I Don't know if anyone notice but LBJ is under a lot of pressure now he has to win a ring with shaq in Cleveland because Kobe and D wade have. and also the east is much better where Cleveland can become the 5th seed in playoffs.

Chronz
10-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Mike Brown is too dumb to put players in their proper spots, and Shaq seems to slow to get there anyways. The picks hes setting are weak, why the **** is he starting.

Lakersfan2483
10-29-2009, 03:19 PM
The Cavs' offense is the major problem and it starts with Mike Brown.

Raph12
10-29-2009, 03:30 PM
Mike Brown is too dumb to put players in their proper spots, and Shaq seems to slow to get there anyways. The picks hes setting are weak, why the **** is he starting.

x2.. he would be WAY better off the bench.

Chronz
10-29-2009, 03:50 PM
Its really not that hard to **** up, yet Brown has found a way.

Here are the basic principles for any team trying to use Shaq at this stage in his career.

He absolutely MUST have a 4 man who can scramble defensively and hit the open jumper. Udonis Haslem for example, AV and Big Z can handle one of these jobs but they cant switch sides when the ball gos the other way.

So you start the same lineup that won you so many games last year, then when its time for Z to take a breather you move everyone up a slot by taking out Z and AV.

First 6-8 Minutes
MO-AP-Bron-AV-Big Z
Next 4-6Minutes of the 1st
MO-West-Moon-Bron-Shaq

You always have floor spacing, and you always have a 4 that can scramble on defense.

2nd quarter you rest Bron and have Shaq be the focal point where he can be effective.

CMON ****IN BROWN

JordansBulls
10-29-2009, 09:33 PM
This didn't help.

Lebron running Iso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVK-i3eKB6w

SteveNash
10-29-2009, 09:39 PM
This didn't help.

Lebron running Iso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVK-i3eKB6w

Shaq's pick and roll defense didn't help either. Cavs may want to bring Shaq off the bench if he'll except it, Or at least sub him out earlier and have him work with the bench players early in the 2nd/4th quarters. LeBron needs to change his game if he wants to be successful. I don't know what's changed, LeBron was much better playing off the ball last year compared to previous years, maybe he's reverted back to his old self.

JordansBulls
10-29-2009, 09:43 PM
Shaq's pick and roll defense didn't help either. Cavs may want to bring Shaq off the bench if he'll except it, Or at least sub him out earlier and have him work with the bench players early in the 2nd/4th quarters. LeBron needs to change his game if he wants to be successful. I don't know what's changed, LeBron was much better playing off the ball last year compared to previous years, maybe he's reverted back to his old self.

That's what happened in that Orlando series. He pretty much went Iso and that was the downfall of the team.

Raph12
10-29-2009, 09:44 PM
Shaq's pick and roll defense didn't help either. Cavs may want to bring Shaq off the bench if he'll except it, Or at least sub him out earlier and have him work with the bench players early in the 2nd/4th quarters. LeBron needs to change his game if he wants to be successful. I don't know what's changed, LeBron was much better playing off the ball last year compared to previous years, maybe he's reverted back to his old self.

Saw alot of that in the series against the Magic as well... I guess he's losing trust in his teammates or something. His game these last two games resembles that of the series against the Magic, not like what got them the 74-16 record they had before playing the Magic.

Slimsim
10-29-2009, 09:52 PM
Cleveland should start hitting the panic button

jetsfan28
10-29-2009, 09:56 PM
No. Z has been trash, Parker hasn't been good, and West's absence is noticeable, that's what's killing them. They badly need to trade Z for a 3 or 4, and need West back.


This didn't help.

Lebron running Iso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVK-i3eKB6w

There was 9 on the shot clock. By the time he swings it around, Parker gets it and Pierce closes out hard contesting the passing angle, and the entry pass can be made to Shaq, KG would have shifted over and Shaq would have at most 3 seconds left to pass the ball off for a catch and shoot. That's assuming the passes are caught perfectly, tough to assume considering the way Parker was catching the ball.

superkegger
10-29-2009, 11:49 PM
The Cavs will be fine. They got him simply to stop or limit Dwight in the playoffs. Dwight absolutely killed them. They needed someone to stop him from turning and dunking. Nothing more.

Thats a bit over-simplistic. True to a point, but still over-simplistic.



Mike Brown is too dumb to put players in their proper spots, and Shaq seems to slow to get there anyways. The picks hes setting are weak, why the **** is he starting.

The answer to your question is found in the first part of your post. Sadly.


Its really not that hard to **** up, yet Brown has found a way.

Here are the basic principles for any team trying to use Shaq at this stage in his career.

He absolutely MUST have a 4 man who can scramble defensively and hit the open jumper. Udonis Haslem for example, AV and Big Z can handle one of these jobs but they cant switch sides when the ball gos the other way.

So you start the same lineup that won you so many games last year, then when its time for Z to take a breather you move everyone up a slot by taking out Z and AV.

First 6-8 Minutes
MO-AP-Bron-AV-Big Z
Next 4-6Minutes of the 1st
MO-West-Moon-Bron-Shaq

You always have floor spacing, and you always have a 4 that can scramble on defense.

2nd quarter you rest Bron and have Shaq be the focal point where he can be effective.

CMON ****IN BROWN

I've said it for years, Mike Brown just doesn't understand offense. He's a defensive coach, who thinks defensively. Losing Kuester was a bigger loss than anyone realized at the time. Sure the Cavs had a great offensive year last year, but it was an abberation to the norm of Mike Brown coached teams. He simply doesn't have that understanding, and never will. LeBron will be amazing this year, and he'll carry the Cavs offense, and it will be their downfall yet again. It's like Mike Brown is to an NBA offense like a 40 year old virgin is to a vagina, it's simply something they don't understand, and will take years if they're lucky to understand.

SteveNash
10-30-2009, 12:10 AM
That's what happened in that Orlando series. He pretty much went Iso and that was the downfall of the team.

Yep, I just didn't expect LeBron to revert back so soon. I guess he probably felt they need another ~66 win season.

IndiansFan337
10-30-2009, 12:24 AM
I think we were outscored by 26 points when he was on the court last night.

He had no hope of defending Bargnani.

Shaq is tough on opposing big men. But he is one of the largest liabilities in the NBA when the opposing C is mobile & can shoot deep J's and/or 3's. Dallas, Toronto, NYK, etc will torch him.

Wiz kids
10-30-2009, 12:25 AM
This didn't help.

Lebron running Iso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVK-i3eKB6w

How does Shaq look more tired playing for the Cavs then the Suns?

superkegger
10-30-2009, 12:31 AM
I think we were outscored by 26 points when he was on the court last night.

He had no hope of defending Bargnani.

Shaq is tough on opposing big men. But he is one of the largest liabilities in the NBA when the opposing C is mobile & can shoot deep J's and/or 3's. Dallas, Toronto, NYK, etc will torch him.

Yeah, but lets be honest with it, it's not like big Z is a whole lot more capable in those instances than Shaq. More capable perhaps, but still mostly helpless, and they managed quite well last year...

While the defense has been bad, the offense has been worse. No offense to Toronto, but they're not precisely known for making teams work defensively, or being a good defensive team, and it's not like Hedo improves that area of the game for them. Skeets said it well:

But the offense, I'm sorry, it's the problem. Cleveland scored 94.8 points per 100 possessions in the team's second straight loss, that's down from 112.4 per 100 last year (good for fourth in the NBA), and downright miserable against a Toronto team that really shouldn't be holding anyone to a mark like that.


But there the Cavs were, just clanging away. 34.9 percent shooting from the floor. Mo Williams(notes) had another bum game, missing 10 of 14 looks. Anthony Parker(notes) (4-12 from the floor) has had to shoot way too much thus far. And Shaq and Big Z's touches seem like afterthoughts. Honestly. When the Cavs actually send it toward their bigs, the team looks like teams look when they dump it off to a small forward who just caught Jose Juan Barea(notes) in the post on a switch....Sure, Brown and his Cavs aren't much right now, but the Raptors made Cleveland work. It took them out of sets and denied good spacing for 75 percent of the game

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Behind-the-Box-Score-where-Denver-has-a-good-on?urn=nba,198941#remaining-content

The offense for Cleveland is miserable thus far, just miserable, and it's not on Shaq, or any one person thus far, other than the shittastic Mike Brown.

jetsfan28
10-30-2009, 12:32 AM
I think we were outscored by 26 points when he was on the court last night.

He had no hope of defending Bargnani.

Shaq is tough on opposing big men. But he is one of the largest liabilities in the NBA when the opposing C is mobile & can shoot deep J's and/or 3's. Dallas, Toronto, NYK, etc will torch him.

I can't believe how much people are overrating that. He mostly played with Varejao (0-5), LeBron (7-19), Parker (4-12), and Mo (4-14), the only reason he looks worse is because he wasn't in for the one stretch in the 3rd when they actually shot well.

evadatam5150
10-30-2009, 01:15 AM
Cleveland is working with a new offensive system which means the entire team is in a sort of funk trying to figure things out.. The addition of Shaq also means that the team will be highly susceptible to the pick and roll, which has always been a major issue for any team that Shaq has sold himself out to.. Cleveland needs to prepare for this accordingly.. Z is not better than Shaq period and to say so is just slapping the Big Nasty firmly in the pie hole..

Cleveland has defensive issue with either man on the floor period.. Cleveland also has issues because it's still very much a mystery how that team won as many games as they did last season sporting that bench and some of the role players they have.. The addition of Shaq does help this team moderately in some areas but they will always have issues with the pick and roll which teams will exploit..

Chronz
10-30-2009, 04:09 AM
I can't believe how much people are overrating that. He mostly played with Varejao (0-5), LeBron (7-19), Parker (4-12), and Mo (4-14), the only reason he looks worse is because he wasn't in for the one stretch in the 3rd when they actually shot well.

To a degree your right, but if you saw the game youd know that it was Shaqs presence that hurt them. The reason they shot well was because they were getting open better than they were when Shaq was in the game. Now Im not tryin to say its all on Shaq, but clearly his teammates arent used to playing with a post presence, none of them ever have.

Chronz
10-30-2009, 04:14 AM
Cleveland is working with a new offensive system which means the entire team is in a sort of funk trying to figure things out.. The addition of Shaq also means that the team will be highly susceptible to the pick and roll, which has always been a major issue for any team that Shaq has sold himself out to.. Cleveland needs to prepare for this accordingly.. Z is not better than Shaq period and to say so is just slapping the Big Nasty firmly in the pie hole..

Cleveland has defensive issue with either man on the floor period.. Cleveland also has issues because it's still very much a mystery how that team won as many games as they did last season sporting that bench and some of the role players they have.. The addition of Shaq does help this team moderately in some areas but they will always have issues with the pick and roll which teams will exploit..

Yes Shaq cant defend the PnR but neither could Z, the problem is that the guy who made up for Z's shortcomings cant do the same for Shaq because they dont mesh offensively. Its only a matter of time before they sort this out, no way Brown sticks to his current rotations.

Mr.ATLHawks
10-30-2009, 07:59 AM
Shaq is slowing down eveything like their fastbreak. They will be in the lower 8 seeds come playoff time

First of all Cavs arent a fast break team. They are a defense first team. Second, you tell me illgauskas was btter then shaq on the break.....GTFO of here

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-30-2009, 08:18 AM
Cleveland should start hitting the panic button

LOL, after two bad games


Thats a bit over-simplistic. True to a point, but still over-simplistic.




The answer to your question is found in the first part of your post. Sadly.



I've said it for years, Mike Brown just doesn't understand offense. He's a defensive coach, who thinks defensively. Losing Kuester was a bigger loss than anyone realized at the time. Sure the Cavs had a great offensive year last year, but it was an abberation to the norm of Mike Brown coached teams. He simply doesn't have that understanding, and never will. LeBron will be amazing this year, and he'll carry the Cavs offense, and it will be their downfall yet again. It's like Mike Brown is to an NBA offense like a 40 year old virgin is to a vagina, it's simply something they don't understand, and will take years if they're lucky to understand.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

jetsfan28
10-30-2009, 03:03 PM
To a degree your right, but if you saw the game youd know that it was Shaqs presence that hurt them. The reason they shot well was because they were getting open better than they were when Shaq was in the game. Now Im not tryin to say its all on Shaq, but clearly his teammates arent used to playing with a post presence, none of them ever have.

While that's true, Parker played with Bosh, but for some reason he has looked the most lost.

evadatam5150
10-30-2009, 03:15 PM
Yes Shaq cant defend the PnR but neither could Z, the problem is that the guy who made up for Z's shortcomings cant do the same for Shaq because they dont mesh offensively. Its only a matter of time before they sort this out, no way Brown sticks to his current rotations.

Pretty much what I was saying, neither guy can defend the pick and roll because neither guy is agile enough to do so.. I don't agree that Cleveland will figure this out with their current roster.. They don't have the athleticism on their current roster or the length to make up for Shaq and Z's defensive deficiencies.. Other teams will simply continue to exploit this issue all season long..

Chronz
10-30-2009, 04:21 PM
Pretty much what I was saying, neither guy can defend the pick and roll because neither guy is agile enough to do so.. I don't agree that Cleveland will figure this out with their current roster.. They don't have the athleticism on their current roster or the length to make up for Shaq and Z's defensive deficiencies.. Other teams will simply continue to exploit this issue all season long..

How do you figure they dont have the length when they have more length now than they ever did before, and were able to be a top flight defensive team the last few years even with a plodder like Big Z? They are fine defensively, just wait and see. Its their offense thats a mess.

RaptorizedKevin
10-30-2009, 04:37 PM
they are much worse with shaq, because he completly slows down their style. they cant get out and run, shaq is too old and slow to bother to play defence, so he doesnt, and thats costing them alot. if they get stephen jackson, i will seriouslty hate the cavs, cause theres no way why they cant get a championship with someone added like jax