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View Full Version : Is Kobe the best overachiever in history?



TannerOwnsDevin
10-10-2009, 11:58 PM
2 Scoring titles. 4 Titles. 2 valuable MVP's. Numerous All NBA/All Defense/All Star recognitions.


The kid was drafted 13th overall and was considered to be just an All Star at best by draft prospects, and who could've thought he could be a Superstar and the leagues most popular athlete. He started his career as a 4th string guard that ended his season with 2 Airballs in the postseason. People started calling him nothing but a "showboat"



He came back next season by doubling his production since his rookie average. And after another season, he gradually became as instrumental as Shaq by winning 3 NBA Titles while also setting numerous scoring records in this decade.( 81 pts, 62 & 56 pts in only 3 quartersa, 4 consecutive 50 point games, 9 consecutive 40+ pt games, averaged 40 points in a game for the whole month thrice, most points in MSG with 61, highest single season scoring mark in a season with 35.4 ppg... etc) Fast forward and Kobe won another title as the clear cut best player on his team while capturing 2 MVP's to boot. This season, he has another chance to win another championship and another Finals MVP.



So, the question stands. Has there been a better achiever than Kobe in history?



If so who? make your case...

AllTheWay
10-11-2009, 12:02 AM
Ben Wallace- Undrafted

And then 4 DPOYs.

I don't think it is Kobe just because it was known he had insane potential, he was just very raw.

asandhu23
10-11-2009, 12:24 AM
Anthony Morrow :hide: Wes Unseld. Dell Curry. Gilbert Arenas. Dennis Rodman. Nate Archibald.

Chronz
10-11-2009, 12:26 AM
Interesting take, can anyone name any other competitors . Ben Wallace doesnt match that

asandhu23
10-11-2009, 12:29 AM
Interesting take, can anyone name any other competitors . Ben Wallace doesnt match that

look at my post

JordansBulls
10-11-2009, 12:32 AM
2 Scoring titles. 4 Titles. 2 valuable MVP's. Numerous All NBA/All Defense/All Star recognitions.


The kid was drafted 13th overall and was considered to be just an All Star at best by draft prospects, and who could've thought he could be a Superstar and the leagues most popular athlete. He started his career as a 4th string guard that ended his season with 2 Airballs in the postseason. People started calling him nothing but a "showboat"



He came back next season by doubling his production since his rookie average. And after another season, he gradually became as instrumental as Shaq by winning 3 NBA Titles while also setting numerous scoring records in this decade.( 81 pts, 62 & 56 pts in only 3 quartersa, 4 consecutive 50 point games, 9 consecutive 40+ pt games, averaged 40 points in a game for the whole month thrice, most points in MSG with 61, highest single season scoring mark in a season with 35.4 ppg... etc) Fast forward and Kobe won another title as the clear cut best player on his team while capturing 2 MVP's to boot. This season, he has another chance to win another championship and another Finals MVP.



So, the question stands. Has there been a better achiever than Kobe in history?



If so who? make your case...

You mean as far as someone who was picked in the teens or further down. I can think of Tony Parker off hand who was like 25th. He has 3 rings and a finals mvp. But other than that off hand, I can't think of anyone.

NPH
10-11-2009, 12:41 AM
Anthony Morrow :hide: Wes Unseld. Dell Curry. Gilbert Arenas. Dennis Rodman. Nate Archibald.


WOW. :confused:

Hawkeye15
10-11-2009, 12:47 AM
his pick number had some news behind it. He wasn't valued at a #13 pick. That should make a difference. He fell that far for reasons.

Durant is hype
10-11-2009, 12:52 AM
You mean as far as someone who was picked in the teens or further down. I can think of Tony Parker off hand who was like 25th. He has 3 rings and a finals mvp. But other than that off hand, I can't think of anyone.

I think he means based on potential and how a certain player plays much better than peoples expectations.

Gibby
10-11-2009, 12:55 AM
scouts and everyone knew he had talent. he had a great HS career. even at the 13th pick, he is not biggest underachiever. there are players who went lower in the draft, that nobody heard of at the time, that turned out to be stars.

If he went to college and a had good season, he probably would have been picked higher.

PLAYERS FAN
10-11-2009, 01:01 AM
Yes, because he came in the league with a deep draft class and was not a starter his first year like Iverson,Marbury,Camby,Kittles and Ray Allen.

ChiSox219
10-11-2009, 01:03 AM
John Stockton/Ben Wallace

Chronz
10-11-2009, 01:03 AM
look at my post

Actually Im more impressed with your post count, your GSW fan right, whenever you have some spare time Id like to ask you some questions regarding your team. I NEED the perfect 2K10 and I cant edit players defensively that I have rarely watched, for some reason even when they played the teams I followed I never kept the games and I didnt pay attention to the blowouts. I have the #'s but I need the context.

Edit) NVM he was drafted 2nd. I mean Wes overachieved based on his height but he was drafted 2nd overall for a reason.

JayW_1023
10-11-2009, 01:14 AM
Anthony Morrow :hide: Wes Unseld. Dell Curry. Gilbert Arenas. Dennis Rodman. Nate Archibald.

WTF is Morrow doing in that list?

Anyways...Tony Parker :D

vash9
10-11-2009, 01:18 AM
just give Kobe every award known to man.

he also wins "The most talked about and creating topics on ProSportsDaily.com" award also.


if 4 rings doesn't explain anything...then i don't know what does.

Ripper Gein
10-11-2009, 01:22 AM
this guy is great at backhanded compliments.:rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
10-11-2009, 02:02 AM
his pick number had some news behind it. He wasn't valued at a #13 pick. That should make a difference. He fell that far for reasons.

Look at Mock Drafts at the time. He was projected to be 25 in one I read. :speechless:

_KB24_
10-11-2009, 02:15 AM
I don't if he is. He may be, he may not. He did come to the league with somewhat hype and he did draw comparison with Jordan right off from the start. Overachieved may be a bit of a stretch but he after all the **** he was put through.....maybe he did.

Cash
10-11-2009, 02:17 AM
Kobe always had the potential. Ben Wallace went undrafted, meaning NOBODY was interested in him. For a guy to go undrafted, win a couple rings, and win 4DPOY awards, i would actually give Ben the edge over Kobe.

Chronz
10-11-2009, 02:17 AM
Look at Mock Drafts at the time. He was projected to be 25 in one I read. :speechless:
When were the Lakers selecting that year, and do you recall how widespread it was that West wanted him?

BoltLakerPadre
10-11-2009, 02:17 AM
Best underachiever is tough to quantify, but Kobe is for sure the best 13th pick in the NBA draft.

DerekRE_3
10-11-2009, 02:20 AM
You mean as far as someone who was picked in the teens or further down. I can think of Tony Parker off hand who was like 25th. He has 3 rings and a finals mvp. But other than that off hand, I can't think of anyone.

What about his teammate Manu Ginobli, taken 57th overall when there were29 teams, so he was the 2nd to last player drafted that year.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-11-2009, 02:22 AM
just give Kobe every award known to man.

he also wins "The most talked about and creating topics on ProSportsDaily.com" award also.


if 4 rings doesn't explain anything...then i don't know what does.

:facepalm:

lakersrnumber1
10-11-2009, 02:23 AM
i have kobe at 1 and scottie pippen at a close 2

asandhu23
10-11-2009, 02:28 AM
Actually Im more impressed with your post count, your GSW fan right, whenever you have some spare time Id like to ask you some questions regarding your team. I NEED the perfect 2K10 and I cant edit players defensively that I have rarely watched, for some reason even when they played the teams I followed I never kept the games and I didnt pay attention to the blowouts. I have the #'s but I need the context.

Edit) NVM he was drafted 2nd. I mean Wes overachieved based on his height but he was drafted 2nd overall for a reason.

yes i am a warriors fan. and i'll help you with that.

DerekRE_3
10-11-2009, 02:32 AM
Also, I think Earl Boykins deserves to be mentioned. Any guy that is 5'5 and 130 pounds that makes the NBA deserves some recognition for being an overachiever.

abe_froman
10-11-2009, 02:47 AM
george "iceman" gervin:40
dennis rodman:27
joe dumars:18
steve nash:15
alex english:23
tiny archibald:19
manu:57
rondo:21
carlos boozer:34
rashard lewis:32

asandhu23
10-11-2009, 02:48 AM
mark my words... Tyler Hansbrough and DeJuan Blair are going to be next on this list

DC_09
10-11-2009, 10:26 AM
I finally sign up to this site cause of this thread.

1)Kobe was drafted when High school players were still considered unknowns. KG was who started the high school explosion and he was just drafted the year before Kobe. So Kobe being drafted at 13 shows how talented he was to be taken that high.

2)At pick 13 that means he was a Lottery pick. You expect lottery picks to become good to great players. Even you said most sites thought of him just having All Star potential. That is not a bad thing from a relative unknown.

3)Kobe is a Hall of Famer but him being a the best overachiever is a huge stretch. Ben Wallace probably wouldn't even be in the NBA if Wes Unseld didn't go to a tryout. Wallace is a undersized center that was traded twice as a filler and later became a 4 time DPOTY. Also add in Boykins and Parker.

I can even make a argument that Nash was a bigger overachiever and he was in the same draft as Kobe.

Lining up just stats,awards and impact, multiple players are close to equal to Kobe. Kobe main difference is he has multiple rings and three of them came by him being the sidekick.

quade36
10-11-2009, 10:48 AM
This thread == fail.......

Yet another "I think Kobe is the greatest ever blah blah " thread.

TannerOwnsDevin
10-11-2009, 11:05 AM
i have kobe at 1 and scottie pippen at a close 2

Good job on Pippen. I was also going to say Dennis Rodman.


I finally sign up to this site cause of this thread.

1)Kobe was drafted when High school players were still considered unknowns. KG was who started the high school explosion and he was just drafted the year before Kobe. So Kobe being drafted at 13 shows how talented he was to be taken that high.

2)At pick 13 that means he was a Lottery pick. You expect lottery picks to become good to great players. Even you said most sites thought of him just having All Star potential. That is not a bad thing from a relative unknown.

3)Kobe is a Hall of Famer but him being a the best overachiever is a huge stretch. Ben Wallace probably wouldn't even be in the NBA if Wes Unseld didn't go to a tryout. Wallace is a undersized center that was traded twice as a filler and later became a 4 time DPOTY. Also add in Boykins and Parker.

I can even make a argument that Nash was a bigger overachiever and he was in the same draft as Kobe.

Lining up just stats,awards and impact, multiple players are close to equal to Kobe. Kobe main difference is he has multiple rings and three of them came by him being the sidekick.

Glad you signed up at PSD :)


This thread == fail.......

Yet another "I think Kobe is the greatest ever blah blah " thread.


For the record, I think Kobe is great regardless, but please dont mistake me for a fan of his. :facepalm: This idea came from a Laker friend of mine and I thought Id ask the public's opinion on it.


I do think Dennis Rodman is the greater overachiever than Kobe by the way. Kobe was making headlines even in High School. Rodman virtually was a second round pick and that went to a small program collegiate system.


He eventually won DPOY, a few rebounding titles and 5 NBA championships. IMO, Rodman was a better overachiever than Kobe.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Bill Russell?

Is 9 titles good enough to overthrow 4 titles?

bigsams50
10-11-2009, 11:23 AM
^ I gotta agree with russell

knickerbockerny
10-11-2009, 11:34 AM
Kobe Bryant and overachiever should not be in the same sentence. You guys forget about the year in which he did not make the playoffs, or the years he got bounce out early on in the playoffs. That boy has earned everything the hard way. Nothing was able to bring him down, not even the legal system.

rjvacad
10-11-2009, 11:41 AM
If he had Kobe's work attitude, there is no doubt he would of gone down as the greastest center of all time. He only came to camp a few times in shape and ready to go and that was only to prove a point. If he had been in shape every year, always pushing to be better, he would of been hands down the best.

TannerOwnsDevin
10-11-2009, 11:45 AM
If he had Kobe's work attitude, there is no doubt he would of gone down as the greastest center of all time. He only came to camp a few times in shape and ready to go and that was only to prove a point. If he had been in shape every year, always pushing to be better, he would of been hands down the best.

Wrong thread?

showtym24
10-11-2009, 12:03 PM
When you have tons and tons of potential and your the hardest worker in the league that usually helps.

_KB24_
10-11-2009, 07:49 PM
Bill Russell?

Is 9 titles good enough to overthrow 4 titles?

Your saying Russell Overachieved? BTW, its 11 titles.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-11-2009, 08:37 PM
Your saying Russell Overachieved? BTW, its 11 titles.

He sure as hell didn't underachieve with 11 titles.

LA_Raiders
10-11-2009, 09:13 PM
The Logo is a genius.....

Ben Wallace was great...

Mavrix
10-11-2009, 09:32 PM
Manu Ginobili

_KB24_
10-11-2009, 09:55 PM
He sure as hell didn't underachieve with 11 titles.

True, but I wouldn't say he overachieved. He was the first true dominant big man out there and the NBA had never seen someone with his physical attributes before hand. Still, 11 titles is a whopping number.

baller1532
10-11-2009, 09:57 PM
john stockton has to be in the discussion. 13th pick, all time leader in assists and steals

Hellcrooner
10-11-2009, 10:58 PM
nope.

Draft slipping does not count when the player is playing the I WONT PLAY for your team card, because that artificially takes you down.

Also drafts are not awlays equal in talent.

Any early Second rounder from 96 , 81,84, is better than the best pick in 00 or 86 example

ARMIN12NBA
10-12-2009, 12:38 AM
Bill Russell?

Is 9 titles good enough to overthrow 4 titles?

Russel didn't overachieve. He won two titles in college and even won an Olympic Gold Medal. He was also the top pick. Everybody expected him to be great.

Not to mention his team were stacked. Titles are not the end all, be all. Neither is statistics. Sports, in general, encompasses a variety of aspects of the respective game to determine greatness or lack of greatness.

abe_froman
10-12-2009, 01:14 AM
Russel didn't overachieve. He won two titles in college and even won an Olympic Gold Medal. He was also the top pick. Everybody expected him to be great.

Not to mention his team were stacked. Titles are not the end all, be all. Neither is statistics. Sports, in general, encompasses a variety of aspects of the respective game to determine greatness or lack of greatness.

he was the 2nd pick,not top pick

ARMIN12NBA
10-12-2009, 01:49 AM
he was the 2nd pick,not top pick

OMG. The difference is so vast that now my opinion has changed...He definitely overachieved for where he was drafted. :rolleyes:

JasonJohnHorn
10-12-2009, 02:59 AM
I wouldn't call Kobe and overachiever. He was drafted straight out of high school at a time when highschooler players weren't typically drafted high in the draft, and without playing college ball there was no real way for scouts to determine his true value and potential, so the fact he was drafted as high as he was in itself was an indication that much was expected of him (though not every team was willing to gamble on highschool players at the time). Obviously there was much expected from him at the time, few highschool players had been drafted higher at that point, and a number of teams were trying to pick him up, Charlotte and the Lakers most obviously, but there were other teams hoping to pick him up.

As for bigger surprises, I would say John Stockton was a bigger surprise in terms of his elite play and status in the draft. When Utah drafted him they were highly critizied and even mocked by those commentating the draft and he went on to be the only player to ever had more than one 1000+ assist season, posted the 5 highest single season assist averages, all-time leader in assists (with a record that is untouchable), all time leader in steals (with a record that is untouchable), and all that after having gone to a no-name college and being picked at 16th.

Karl Malone was also picked at 13th like Kobe. Ben Wallace is a bigger surprise still since he went UNDRAFTED and was given away twice for next to nothing early in his career and went on to become the center-piece for a title-winning team. Being undrafted that is a HUGE surprise (Kobe was a early first round pick).

Tony Parker was the 28th pick overall and helmed a title winning team as a teenager (Kobe didn't do that) and won a finals MVP award.

Manu Ginobili was the 57 pick over all.

Dennis Rodman won 5 titles and was the best rebounder of his generation: 27th pick over all.


Mark Jackson was drafted at 18th overall, won ROY and is the second leading assist man in NBA history.

Drazen Petrovic got drafted 60th over all and was an all-star.

Stephen Jackson had his draft right recinded and then couldn't even get minutes on a European team and fought for years to get a spot on an NBA roster, fighting for minutes on non-playoff teams and eventually became a starter on an NBA championship team.

Bruce Bowen, undrafted, Jose Calderon, undrafted. Brad Miller; undrafted. Darrell Armsrong; undrafted. Each of those guys have had long careers and made huge contributions to their teams and all were seen as not good enough to even be drafted.

These players havent done as much as Kobe, but they are players who all played far above where everybody expected them to. There was a lot of high expectations for Kobe when he was drafted, and the Lakers gave up a startign center for a highschool player, which was considered a huge gamble. But people knew he was good and had high expectations of him. These other players had next to no expectations and many though these other players weren't even good enough for hte league, which was never a question in Kobe's case.

Of course nobody in sports was a bigger surprise than Joe Montana, drafted 82nd over all? Passed up by every team twice? Four titles, three super bowl MVPs. He's the biggest "over-achiever" in all of sports.

Ace33Bone
10-12-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't think that he can be titled the biggest overachiever of all times... because he was extremely talented coming out of Lower Marion... the thing that made the big difference in Kobe's career is the way that he approached the game from a mental standpoint was what made Kobe the absolute Great player that he is today

G-Funk
10-12-2009, 11:37 AM
Kobe was the 13th pick at the time simply cause their was no such thing as guards coming out of high school if, it wasn't that popular in 96 and if I stand correct, he was the first guard to come out if high school.

td0tsfinest
10-12-2009, 12:34 PM
Nate "tiny" Archibald (Drafted 2nd round, 19th overall)
-World Champion
-3x First Team All-NBA
- 2x Second Team All-NBA
-6 Allstar Teams (1 Allstar MVP)
- Hall of Famer (1991 Class)

Karl Malone was drafted 13th overall as well
- he's got 2 MVPs
-13 Allstar Appearances (2 Allstar MVPs)
- 11 All-NBA first Team
- 2 All-NBA second team & 1 3rd Team
- 3 all-defensive first team; 1 2nd team
- He's 2nd on the All-Time scoring List and 6th on the All-Time Rebounding List

td0tsfinest
10-12-2009, 12:39 PM
Kobe was the 13th pick at the time simply cause their was no such thing as guards coming out of high school if, it wasn't that popular in 96 and if I stand correct, he was the first guard to come out if high school.

And,from what i've heard, Kobe wanted to play for a big Basketball market. maybe that got to do with him dropping.

_KB24_
10-12-2009, 05:47 PM
And,from what i've heard, Kobe wanted to play for a big Basketball market. maybe that got to do with him dropping.

Yup, the Charlotte Hornets were on the grandest stage of them all....:rolleyes:

Raps18-19 Champ
10-12-2009, 05:50 PM
Yup, the Charlotte Hornets were on the grandest stage of them all....:rolleyes:

You don't even know what you are talking about.

The other guy said that Kobe wanted to play for a big market. Charlotte chose him regardless. Kobe said he didn't want to play for Charlotte.

_KB24_
10-12-2009, 07:33 PM
You don't even know what you are talking about.

The other guy said that Kobe wanted to play for a big market. Charlotte chose him regardless. Kobe said he didn't want to play for Charlotte.

Kobe never said he didn't want to play for Charlotte. I remember him saying in an interview early in his career that he would have gladly played in Charlotte and he liked the area because if he was heavily considering going to Duke. The trade was actually beneficial for both sides. Charlotte needed a big man because of I believe Zo leaving and they traded Johnson later that year. Lakers needed to clear cap for Shaq and would not need Vlade after. West was so determined to get Shaq that he was willing to deal Vlade to ATL for the 25th PICK!??? Anyways things worked out both ways and the Hornets actually won 54 games the next season with Vlade. We all know about the Kobe-Shaq years...

Comments by Mr. Bass, vice exc. of the Hornets at the time:
"Twelve other teams passed on him. We made a decision to win now and not later. We had Dave Cowens as our first-year coach, and I wanted to give him a chance to win. I knew if we got Divac in here, we'd win. I didn't feel the same about Bryant. Without Divac, I thought we might have won 25 games."

SteveNash
10-12-2009, 08:31 PM
Russel didn't overachieve. He won two titles in college and even won an Olympic Gold Medal. He was also the top pick. Everybody expected him to be great.

Not to mention his team were stacked. Titles are not the end all, be all. Neither is statistics. Sports, in general, encompasses a variety of aspects of the respective game to determine greatness or lack of greatness.

Bill Russell overachieved by being from a poor family in a segregated America.

Winning to NCAA championships, the Olympics, 9 NBA championships is just more proof of Russell being an overachievers.

To use Russell's team success early in life as a negative or proof that he didn't overachieve is just one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.