PDA

View Full Version : Reason for Artest over Ariza



nbafan63
10-06-2009, 09:09 PM
Why do some of you pretend to know more about building a championship team than a NBA GM and a hall of fame coach in Phil Jackson? I'm a Laker fan, but I'm not a die hard fan who claims all the Laker players are the best. Basketball is a game of "matchups." Phil Jackson has wanted Ron artest since last yr but couldn't get a trade done without giving up Lamar. It's pretty clear since last year that the Lakers roster had a gap to fill in terms of guarding a strong SF and a quick PG. Laker's main competitors all have a big strong SF and its a weakness of ours...the Lebron, Carmelo, Paul Peirce. While Ariza is a great defender, he is essentially a Kobe-Lite. We needed someone to muscle with the big SFs. We also needed a quick PG because Fisher is getting his azz worked by the young fast PGs and that's why we brought in Shannon Brown. We have quick PG in Farmar, but he cant stop any quick PGs and his floor leadership is questionable.

To have a championship team, you need variety of players to match up to just about every situation. That's why everyone keeps saying the Lakers are so deep, because we have the talent and the size for just about any team. If we play a big banger Center like Dwight, we have Bynum to answer. Not saying Bynum is better than Dwight, but Bynum has the size to put a body on him. Now if we are playing a smaller PF/C with jumpshot, we got Gasol for him. If we face a hybrid SF/PF such as Rashard Lewis, we got Lamar to match his speed and length (something the celtics didnt have last yr because KG was hurt). If we face a quick SF lengthy SF, we got Ariza or Kobe. If we face a quick SG like Brandon Roy we got Kobe or Ariza. If we got a Strong PG like Deron we got Fisher. See the GAP in or roster?? The strong SF and Quick PG. Ariza can't really handle the big SFs which meant Kobe had to cover or help which isn't Ideal either since Kobe isn't that big himself. Also, Fisher gets burned left and right by quick PGs. So we had to address those issues. We brought Shannon Brown who isnt much of a PG in any means. But he is 6'3 and can run and jump with the best of them. Something Fisher nor Farmar could do. So this offseason we addressed the issue of covering the bigger SFs with Artest.

I agree, Artest has lost a step. But do you see why we made that move? We didn't need a super slim quick guy, we got that in Kobe. We needed a strong body 6'6"-6'9". Ariza will develop into a good player, we all can see that. I think Houston made a good pick up at MLE for Ariza's talent. But for the Lakers, he didn't address anything that Kobe couldn't do. And most important, our biggest competition or "rivals" all have a big powerhouse SF as their #1 scoring option. Lebron, Carmelo, Paul Pierce. It's important for us to find an answer to slow those guys now and not them them score at will.

Will Artest cause a problem for the lakers? I don't know, I hope not. I guess we shall see. But we all know what role he plays and I sure hope he understands his own role. And I think at this point in his career, he understands it too. Why would the guy take minimum $ if it wasn't to win and play with the best. If he wants to be a stud and drop 20, he could have done what Iverson did. Go to a young crappy team and find your points there and maybe for more money as well.

Hope my input helps. Not trying to say I know more than the rest of you, but I have watched a few interviews from last yr where Phil Jackson told the media he needed toughness at certain positions on his roster. And also Ariza's agent wanted more $$.

ko8e24
10-06-2009, 09:13 PM
uuuh welcome to psd? :hide:

Lakersfan2483
10-06-2009, 09:14 PM
Artest is an upgrade at the small forward spot, the only people that don't feel that way are people that despise the Lakers and want the team to fail.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Artest is an upgrade at the small forward spot, the only people that don't feel that way are people that despise the Lakers and want the team to fail.

or fans that understand basketball. Either/or

nbafan63
10-06-2009, 09:22 PM
uuuh welcome to psd? :hide:


Thank you sir! I've been reading the forums for a while now. Never really chimed in on the discussion because most of the time someone else already said what I wanted to say. But this whole Ariza > Artest argument is just mind blowing to me. Because they are different type of players playing the SF position. Ariza is quick and slender. Artest is bulky and not as fast anymore but they serve different purpose. Most people are comparing them like they have the same body type with same skill set, which they don't.

carter15
10-06-2009, 09:23 PM
We'll find out this year whether he truly was, but I think at best it was a lateral move because Ariza brought a lot to the table and was huge in the playoffs. From what I saw with him he may not have had the lockdown D Artest has, but he made huge plays on the defensive end which Artest does not. He also knocked down a ton of big shots and Artest's offense really disappeared in the playoffs.

Rocco007
10-06-2009, 09:32 PM
Ariza didn't take any pressure off Kobe because he couldn't handle the elite 3's, Pierce, Lebron, Melo etc.....He just wasn't strong enough...That alone is an upgrade...Nevermind he couldn't dribble well and had 0 postgame...
NO BRAINER...

Lakersfan2483
10-06-2009, 09:33 PM
or fans that understand basketball. Either/or

So you don't think Artest is an upgrade and will fit in, why does that not surprise me? :rolleyes::) It will all be settled in due time.

ManRam
10-06-2009, 09:44 PM
Artest is an upgrade at the small forward spot, the only people that don't feel that way are people that despise the Lakers and want the team to fail.

But assembling the most talent isn't usually what wins championships. Ariza was HUGE in the Finals last year. He had arguably the two biggest plays vs. the Magic. Brining him back was the safe move. Why fix something that ain't broke? Instead, they let him go, for a very volatile player. I've never been one to give Artest as much **** as he gets, but he is a risk, and does have flaws in his game. His offensive basketball IQ is very weak. He often resorts to shot chucking. I think with Kobe, he'll be fine...but still, you can't deny there is some risk in this...both on the court, and off.

I think the Lakers are better, but you never know. He is a good player, but not amazing. He's only been an all-star once. He's never even gotten close enough to sniff a championship. He does shoot only 42% from the field.

He'll help out defensively, but Ariza was definitely no slouch in that regard. I don't think his offense is going to make the Lakers that much better. They have more talent, but I'll tell you whether or not it was the smart move after this year...or the next couple.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2009, 09:48 PM
So you don't think Artest is an upgrade and will fit in, why does that not surprise me? :rolleyes::) It will all be settled in due time.

I think he will fit in fine. But no, I don't see him as an upgrade over Ariza for the upcoming season.

Shady66
10-06-2009, 09:49 PM
Whileit obviosuly looks better on paper, people are doubting/ unsure whether this will help the lakers out more, or screw up chemistry

Toenail Clipper
10-06-2009, 09:54 PM
It's a toss-up, 50/50.
In the future, of course Ariza will rise, but I believe this swap was an upgrade for the Lakers today. Ariza is an efficient player after coming to the Lakers, why? Simple, Lakers made him better. However, he is no where Artest's efficiency of guarding Superstars. Basically, without the Lakers, there wouldn't be a Trevor Ariza. He's an OKAY player. I wish Lakers could have done something to trade either Walton or Vujacic to keep Ariza AND sign Artest.
-_____-

Lakersfan2483
10-06-2009, 09:54 PM
But assembling the most talent isn't usually what wins championships. Ariza was HUGE in the Finals last year. He had arguably the two biggest plays vs. the Magic. Brining him back was the safe move. Why fix something that ain't broke? Instead, they let him go, for a very volatile player. I've never been one to give Artest as much **** as he gets, but he is a risk, and does have flaws in his game. His offensive basketball IQ is very weak. He often resorts to shot chucking. I think with Kobe, he'll be fine...but still, you can't deny there is some risk in this...both on the court, and off.

I think the Lakers are better, but you never know. He is a good player, but not amazing. He's only been an all-star once. He's never even gotten close enough to sniff a championship. He does shoot only 42% from the field.

He'll help out defensively, but Ariza was definitely no slouch in that regard. I don't think his offense is going to make the Lakers that much better. They have more talent, but I'll tell you whether or not it was the smart move after this year...or the next couple.

I think there is definitely some risk in bringing in a guy like Artest because he can be a ball-stopper at times and is a head-case, but I am just simply saying that he's better than Trevor. Ariza played very well last year and was critical in terms of us winning a ring, but I just believe that if Ron plays withing the team concept and embraces his role, he will in fact bring more to the table than Ariza. Artest is definitely not in his prime and has lost a step, but I still believe he's an upgrade talent wise over Trevor.

DRE'-MAC
10-06-2009, 10:06 PM
I'm a Rockets fan and I think the swap was perfect for both teams.
Lakers get the better and more experienced Ron Artest who brings intensity to the team.
Rockets got Ariza who is younger and fits in better with their new up tempo offense.

NJrockPD
10-06-2009, 10:06 PM
I think Ariza is kind of over rated and a product of being on a really good team. I think Artest makes them a much better team.

nbafan63
10-06-2009, 10:09 PM
did none of you read my original post???

Its not so much if Artest is more talented or not. (which i think he is)

But the fact is Artest is atleast 55+ pounds more than ariza! Huge size difference. Artest can check PP, Carmelo, Vince Carter, Lebron James. Can ariza? Nope, but he can gamble and make a steal before they catch the ball and set up their tripple threat. But surely, you can't expect him to steal it everytime. You gotta go with the bigger body in Artest!

mfb_lt1birdman
10-06-2009, 10:10 PM
But assembling the most talent isn't usually what wins championships. Ariza was HUGE in the Finals last year. He had arguably the two biggest plays vs. the Magic. Brining him back was the safe move. Why fix something that ain't broke? Instead, they let him go, for a very volatile player. I've never been one to give Artest as much **** as he gets, but he is a risk, and does have flaws in his game. His offensive basketball IQ is very weak. He often resorts to shot chucking. I think with Kobe, he'll be fine...but still, you can't deny there is some risk in this...both on the court, and off.

I think the Lakers are better, but you never know. He is a good player, but not amazing. He's only been an all-star once. He's never even gotten close enough to sniff a championship. He does shoot only 42% from the field.

He'll help out defensively, but Ariza was definitely no slouch in that regard. I don't think his offense is going to make the Lakers that much better. They have more talent, but I'll tell you whether or not it was the smart move after this year...or the next couple.

Good point, and for sure it is a gamble. But LA lucked out against Orlando in that we matched up very well against them, and not so much the other way around. The previous year Pierce torched LA-Artest is the answer. Do you recall the early games of the Denver series? Melo went crazy. Artest is the answer. What if LA matches up with Lebron and the Cavs? Again Artest is the man. Not saying he will shut these guys down but he is the best man for the job and better than Ariza for these players.

Only time will tell if its a good move. I would have done the same for sure though, and as a fan will live with the concequences. I sure wish we could have kept Ariza though. I liked the guy alot and he came up with some monster big plays for us.

ManRam
10-06-2009, 10:23 PM
I think there is definitely some risk in bringing in a guy like Artest because he can be a ball-stopper at times and is a head-case, but I am just simply saying that he's better than Trevor. Ariza played very well last year and was critical in terms of us winning a ring, but I just believe that if Ron plays withing the team concept and embraces his role, he will in fact bring more to the table than Ariza. Artest is definitely not in his prime and has lost a step, but I still believe he's an upgrade talent wise over Trevor.

I'm not disagreeing that it is an talent upgrade. I'm just saying that talent is what wins games. They had a great team, with a lot of youth. Why fix something that isn't broke? Artest is more talented than Ariza, sure, but that doesn't mean he'll make them better.

sw20
10-06-2009, 10:26 PM
I bet if Artest didnt signed with them, LA fans would say Ariza is a much better fit anyway.

nbafan63
10-06-2009, 10:30 PM
Laker fans have wanted Artest since last summer. Kings wanted Ariza+Odom for artest and we passed because we didnt want to give up odom.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2009, 10:31 PM
I bet if Artest didnt signed with them, LA fans would say Ariza is a much better fit anyway.

duh dude.
But any fan would say that of their team. They look thru little biased glasses. Nothing wrong with it

ManRam
10-06-2009, 10:33 PM
Good point, and for sure it is a gamble. But LA lucked out against Orlando in that we matched up very well against them, and not so much the other way around. The previous year Pierce torched LA-Artest is the answer. Do you recall the early games of the Denver series? Melo went crazy. Artest is the answer. What if LA matches up with Lebron and the Cavs? Again Artest is the man. Not saying he will shut these guys down but he is the best man for the job and better than Ariza for these players.

Only time will tell if its a good move. I would have done the same for sure though, and as a fan will live with the concequences. I sure wish we could have kept Ariza though. I liked the guy alot and he came up with some monster big plays for us.

Ariza is no defensive scrub. Artest's defensive rating was 103 (estimated points per 100 possessions), compared to Ariza's 102. Artest's defensive win shares last year was 3.9, compared to Ariza's 3.6. Artest is better, but it's not like you had a bad defender, not at all. That's what Ariza is best at.

I just don't think they needed to make any changes. Bynum is going to improve. Ariza was going to improve. Kobe and Pau aren't going to fall off any time soon. Why go out and take a risk, when they definitely didn't need to. Teams on top shouldn't make gambles...and I do think they made one.

He might pay off, and I wouldn't be surprised, I just don't think it was worth the risk.

nbafan63
10-06-2009, 10:40 PM
Ariza is no defensive scrub. Artest's defensive rating was 103 (estimated points per 100 possessions), compared to Ariza's 102. Artest's defensive win shares last year was 3.9, compared to Ariza's 3.6. Artest is better, but it's not like you had a bad defender, not at all. That's what Ariza is best at.

I just don't think they needed to make any changes. Bynum is going to improve. Ariza was going to improve. Kobe and Pau aren't going to fall off any time soon. Why go out and take a risk, when they definitely didn't need to. Teams on top shouldn't make gambles...and I do think they made one.

He might pay off, and I wouldn't be surprised, I just don't think it was worth the risk.


>>> Doesn't matter on the season defensive numbers. All you need to look at was the defensive rating of ariza vs carmelo, lebron, peirce, vcarter. And then look at artest defensive ratings vs above. Nuff said.

nbafan63
10-06-2009, 10:44 PM
duh dude.
But any fan would say that of their team. They look thru little biased glasses. Nothing wrong with it

And the rest look through little bias glass of hate and envy. we call you guys haters. How come we don't hear much about VC replacing Hedo?? That's a championship caliber team also but no one is saying much about that, why?? And sure Hedo puts up better #s than Ariza.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2009, 11:12 PM
And the rest look through little bias glass of hate and envy. we call you guys haters. How come we don't hear much about VC replacing Hedo?? That's a championship caliber team also but no one is saying much about that, why?? And sure Hedo puts up better #s than Ariza.

of course you call anyone who opposes the Lakers dominance and divine right to win 82 games haters.
And like I have said before, you will find me on non Laker threads, unlike most of you. I know, and understand what is going on in the NBA, not just in the confines of 90210.
Something tells me we aren't going to get along homeboy

BkOriginalOne
10-06-2009, 11:26 PM
Artest gives them a lineup that could look like.
Dereck Fisher (always go with the veteran)
Kobe
Artest
Gasol
Bynum
6th Man Odom.

Any roation of those tyoe of players and its going to be hard to score on them and its going to be hard to matchup with him.

Ethix11
10-06-2009, 11:42 PM
Everyone knows that Artest is known for his defense. Odom might be known more for his offense. Depending on the matchup of the night, the Lakers can simply switch the SF to shut down the other team with Artest or go with Odom and outscore the opponent. They have that luxury right in the middle of the rotation.

Raph12
10-06-2009, 11:56 PM
Artest isn't an upgrade over Ariza IMO, Ariza just looks like a better player to me.

On defense, Ariza>Artest or ~Artest isn't the lockdown defender he used to be, which is one reason why Battier got priority in Houston when it came to guarding the opposing team's best offensive wing player. Even if you compare Artest's defensive stats to Ariza's you'll find that they are quite similar, with a slight edge in Ariza's favor.

On offense, Ariza>>>Artest, better slasher, shooter and more efficient scorer.

I love the Lakers and think they will get to the WCFs without a doubt, likely make the NBA Finals and a repeat title is within reach, but if I was Mitch Kupchak/Jerry Buss, I'd take Ariza over Artest in a heartbeat.

GHOSTSNIPER
10-07-2009, 12:11 AM
The Lakers don't need to worry about chemistry when they're taking the league to recess.

ARMIN12NBA
10-07-2009, 12:18 AM
I think a huge upgrade is present offensively as well as defensively (which has been well documented already).

Ariza's small build allowed shooting guards to defend him while stronger forwards would check Kobe. Kobe could handle them, but obviously not dominate them as well as he could on a smaller guard.

This season, that simply will not and cannot happen. Artest's size and ability in the post prohibits any team from sensibly cross matching. Artest would absolutely destroy a guard. Thus, teams will simply have to place a guard on Kobe, which will only add to the benefit of Bryant. He will have easier matchups while on offense playing against lighter opponents.

madiaz3
10-07-2009, 12:45 AM
But assembling the most talent isn't usually what wins championships. Ariza was HUGE in the Finals last year. He had arguably the two biggest plays vs. the Magic. Brining him back was the safe move. Why fix something that ain't broke? .

Odds are higher that they face a Pierce or Lebron in the finals instead of the anomaly that was the Orlando Magic in the Finals. It wasn't broken versus what they encountered but that team composite doesn't even exist anymore.

Lakersfan2483
10-07-2009, 01:38 AM
Artest offers the lakers a new dimension defensively, he's much bulkier and can bang with the bigger 3's in the NBA (Lebron, Pierce, Melo) whereas Ariza had a difficult time matching up with these type of players as do most guys. Ariza is slight of build and had a tough time matching up with Melo, Pierce, etc... and often times Kobe had to help defend these guys. Bringing in Artest offers the lakers the luxury of allowing Kobe to not have to guard these guys and vice versa. If those guys decide to guard Kobe then that leaves a small guard on Artest. Ron is a nightmare for small guards and most 3's in the post, which gives the lakers an advantage. Artest is a major upgrade and the doubters will see that real soon, especially during the postseason when the game gets more physical and the stakes are higher.....

blackjack_119
10-07-2009, 01:38 AM
Anyone who thinks that Artest is better equipped to defend LeBron is fooling themselves. No one in the NBA is capable of defending LeBron by himself. In order to keep LeBron in check, you need a good team defense. Ideally, you want a very good post defender who can challenge LeBron when he gets to the rim. Bynum is no Dwight Howard, but he is an above average post defender.

The ideal player to defend LeBron on the perimeter is a quicker, yet strong defender (In the Tayshaun Prince mold) who can do a decent job of staying in front of him but won't be completely dominated physically (a la Kevin Durant.) Ariza is the ideal perimeter defender because he has the length and strength to attempt to stay in front of him (well, as well anyone can.)

Anyone who watched the Blazers/Houston playoff series last season knows that Artest could not stay in front of Brandon Roy (Battier could, which is why Houston won.) To think that Artest has a chance of staying in front of LeBron consistently is laughable.

The only benefit that I see Artest bringing to the Lakers is that he can make the opposition work more on the other end. The elite SF's will score better against Artest, but because Ariza isn't very active on the offensive end, those guys are allowed to rest on the defensive end (unless they get to defend Kobe.) Artest's physicality won't help him defensively, but if he plays physically on the offensive end of the ball, elite SF's will tire faster by having to defend Artest as opposed to Ariza.

MTar786
10-07-2009, 09:06 AM
Artest isn't an upgrade over Ariza IMO, Ariza just looks like a better player to me.

On defense, Ariza>Artest or ~Artest isn't the lockdown defender he used to be, which is one reason why Battier got priority in Houston when it came to guarding the opposing team's best offensive wing player. Even if you compare Artest's defensive stats to Ariza's you'll find that they are quite similar, with a slight edge in Ariza's favor.

On offense, Ariza>>>Artest, better slasher, shooter and more efficient scorer.

I love the Lakers and think they will get to the WCFs without a doubt, likely make the NBA Finals and a repeat title is within reach, but if I was Mitch Kupchak/Jerry Buss, I'd take Ariza over Artest in a heartbeat.

if u were mitch kupchak.. u would have been fired just after making this statement

Ace33Bone
10-07-2009, 09:10 AM
there is not reason to explain going with Artest over Ariza... the bottom line is Artest is clearly> than Ariza

G-Funk
10-07-2009, 10:53 AM
The biggest difference between the 2 is that Ariza is a game changer and Artest is a team changer. A lot of ppl who are against this swap may pull the "Chemistry" card but when you have Fisher the rock of the team, Phil Jackson who's coached some of the biggest personalities, Lamar his best friend and with Kobe Bryant's leadership, this guy will not break the team up.

G-Funk
10-07-2009, 11:00 AM
Anyone who thinks that Artest is better equipped to defend LeBron is fooling themselves. No one in the NBA is capable of defending LeBron by himself. In order to keep LeBron in check, you need a good team defense. Ideally, you want a very good post defender who can challenge LeBron when he gets to the rim. Bynum is no Dwight Howard, but he is an above average post defender.

The ideal player to defend LeBron on the perimeter is a quicker, yet strong defender (In the Tayshaun Prince mold) who can do a decent job of staying in front of him but won't be completely dominated physically (a la Kevin Durant.) Ariza is the ideal perimeter defender because he has the length and strength to attempt to stay in front of him (well, as well anyone can.)

Anyone who watched the Blazers/Houston playoff series last season knows that Artest could not stay in front of Brandon Roy (Battier could, which is why Houston won.) To think that Artest has a chance of staying in front of LeBron consistently is laughable.


No one can stop the elite players in the league but Artest can body up Lebron, Pierce and Melo way better then Ariza can, as great as Ariza was, he doesn't have the muscle to put a body on them. Yes he was quick enought to go trought picks and stay infront of his players, but we already have that in Kobe, we need a fire hydrant that players will bounce of him and we got that with Artest.

G-Funk
10-07-2009, 11:06 AM
Artest isn't an upgrade over Ariza IMO, Ariza just looks like a better player to me.

On defense, Ariza>Artest or ~Artest isn't the lockdown defender he used to be, which is one reason why Battier got priority in Houston when it came to guarding the opposing team's best offensive wing player. Even if you compare Artest's defensive stats to Ariza's you'll find that they are quite similar, with a slight edge in Ariza's favor.

On offense, Ariza>>>Artest, better slasher, shooter and more efficient scorer.

I love the Lakers and think they will get to the WCFs without a doubt, likely make the NBA Finals and a repeat title is within reach, but if I was Mitch Kupchak/Jerry Buss, I'd take Ariza over Artest in a heartbeat.

Let me just say that Ariza benifited a lot from playing with the Lakers, the attention was on others and that helped him in a lot of ways, And as much as I got luv for Ariza, I doubt that he can average what Artest has averaged with the Kings and Rockets as the main option.

Chronz
10-07-2009, 02:30 PM
Artest has more value to a team that needs him to be a primary option, Ariza has more value to a team with stars in place. When their roles are put in perspective, Ariza is the better and more valuable player, especially for that team.

And the thread is idiotic, GM's and Coaches alike have spoken up on the matter so its not like its just us dumb fans.


Either way the Lakers should still win the title so its not like we are clowning on your team, just that Id like your chances to repeat awhole lot more if you kept the better player.

Chronz
10-07-2009, 02:40 PM
did none of you read my original post???

Its not so much if Artest is more talented or not. (which i think he is)

But the fact is Artest is atleast 55+ pounds more than ariza! Huge size difference. Artest can check PP, Carmelo, Vince Carter, Lebron James. Can ariza? Nope, but he can gamble and make a steal before they catch the ball and set up their tripple threat. But surely, you can't expect him to steal it everytime. You gotta go with the bigger body in Artest!
This is true, the thing is, defense is more than just 1 man. Ariza was better defending the entire court, and made up for his lack bulk in a variety of ways. You may end up holding Bron and Melo and PP better, but IF the opposing team scores more effectively anyways, what would be the point. Ariza would go on 8-0 spurts defensively on his own, you have no idea how much those change the game. Providing 10% of your total output in a fraction of a second was something Ive come to enjoy about Ariza, Artest would have his moments like that too for the Rockets, but they came at a much more gambling cost.

If you can get Artest to stop gambling then you may be better off, but part of the reason why I think he gambles so much now, is because he knows he cant stay in front of anyone. Being 40lb heavier isnt going to be much of an impediment if Bron is already going full bore towards the rim.

Still your point is sound, and if Artest ends up making a name for himself on stopping the Brons and Pierces, it would be totally worth the gamble. But my whole hes not an upgrade stems from his offensive abilities. People act like versatility is a strength, its not, you'll get a more efficient Artest if you get him to rely solely on the SET 3. And theres the matter of him taking touches away from your most dominant offensive players.

You already have the best offensive trio in the league, and your going to get them the ball less in favor of a guy whos never been efficient? In a 82game marathon thats going to prove counterproductive and will cost you wins that Ariza would have never.

If playoffs is all you care about though, which is fine, then he may be an upgrade depending on how well he defends. And honestly Ariza was never really outmatched by Bron and Pierce. But Artest was dominant in that 1 game vs Bron, though Yao and Battier probably had more to do with it.

We'll see guy, but lets not act like its such a no brainer.

Chronz
10-07-2009, 02:45 PM
And the rest look through little bias glass of hate and envy. we call you guys haters. How come we don't hear much about VC replacing Hedo?? That's a championship caliber team also but no one is saying much about that, why?? And sure Hedo puts up better #s than Ariza.
WTH? Thats all we've heard about that trade.

But unlike Ariza vs Artest, VC is actually more efficient despite carrying the heavier load than the guy hes replacing, hes a legit all-star that can adapt to any team. And their skill sets are very similar, the difference being anything Hedo can do, Vince can do better.

With Artest you have to hope he doesnt take away too many touches, and that his shooting outweighs Ariza's slashing. And honestly with Kobe and Fisher taking so many jumpers, Ariza was the 1 guy who consistently looked to attack. I guess Kobe can always go back to attacking the rim with Artest spacing the floor but one thing about Artest, for some reason his jumpshot always gos south come playoff, so lets add that to list of worries. Artest playoff history is a joke

Chronz
10-07-2009, 02:53 PM
I think a huge upgrade is present offensively as well as defensively (which has been well documented already).

Ariza's small build allowed shooting guards to defend him while stronger forwards would check Kobe. Kobe could handle them, but obviously not dominate them as well as he could on a smaller guard.

This season, that simply will not and cannot happen. Artest's size and ability in the post prohibits any team from sensibly cross matching. Artest would absolutely destroy a guard. Thus, teams will simply have to place a guard on Kobe, which will only add to the benefit of Bryant. He will have easier matchups while on offense playing against lighter opponents.

You touched on an important aspect, the matchup problems Artest can cause. But do you think teams will opt to put their best defender on Artest if it means sparing their 2 from the beating and pounding, or will they opt to check Kobe anyways knowing that Artest becoming an offensive priority can backfire on the Lakers, and because he will space the floor more often than he ever has, putting a 2 on him wont hurt them much.

The last time this subject was brought up I mentioned Artest's passing ability and him being able to make players around him better, if he can get Kobe or Pau/Bynum to be more effective it could offset his lack of efficiency compared to Ariza.

SC1211
10-07-2009, 02:53 PM
As someone who watched ~70 Rockets games last season, I couldn't be happier with the swap. Artest is vastly overrated. He's one of the most inefficient scorers, and he has really slowed down on D. Battier would always guard the primary guy, and even when we played LeBron, Artest would body up but Battier would always be there to save him on the perimeter. He's just lost a step.

Diesel44
10-07-2009, 03:16 PM
He might have made the Lakers better a year ago, this is dude will be your demise. You don't add a timebomb to a title team. Everybody thinks it will be different we he rolls to your team. You'll be moaning about him by January.

sp1derm00
10-07-2009, 03:53 PM
Anyone who thinks that Artest is better equipped to defend LeBron is fooling themselves. No one in the NBA is capable of defending LeBron by himself. In order to keep LeBron in check, you need a good team defense. Ideally, you want a very good post defender who can challenge LeBron when he gets to the rim. Bynum is no Dwight Howard, but he is an above average post defender.

The ideal player to defend LeBron on the perimeter is a quicker, yet strong defender (In the Tayshaun Prince mold) who can do a decent job of staying in front of him but won't be completely dominated physically (a la Kevin Durant.) Ariza is the ideal perimeter defender because he has the length and strength to attempt to stay in front of him (well, as well anyone can.)

Anyone who watched the Blazers/Houston playoff series last season knows that Artest could not stay in front of Brandon Roy (Battier could, which is why Houston won.) To think that Artest has a chance of staying in front of LeBron consistently is laughable.

The only benefit that I see Artest bringing to the Lakers is that he can make the opposition work more on the other end. The elite SF's will score better against Artest, but because Ariza isn't very active on the offensive end, those guys are allowed to rest on the defensive end (unless they get to defend Kobe.) Artest's physicality won't help him defensively, but if he plays physically on the offensive end of the ball, elite SF's will tire faster by having to defend Artest as opposed to Ariza.

Like the two games last season Kobe and Lebron defended each other... Kobe couldn't stop Lebron then?

Or how about Artest and Battier teaming up, switching up on who checks Lebron. Kobe in terms of defense, is right up there with Battier. Now he has Artest to switch up with him if he gets winded guarding Lebron.

Also, while Ariza was the definition of a team player and fit on the team like a glove, Artest is very much a team player in his own right. He is the defensive workhorse, and will pick up on anyone who is slacking defensively, including Kobe. We need someone like that more than we need another "team player" (see Lamar Odom and Luke Walton).

We needed that other player alongside Kobe with some fire. Pau had it when he was challenged by Scola and Dwight, as did Odom when he was challenged. Kobe has the fire with him always, and so does Artest.

The end result of the Lakers being a better team will be very apparent once you see the improvement in defensive intensity that Ron Artest will bring. NO LAYUPS!!!!

fresh prince
10-07-2009, 05:08 PM
I bet if Artest didnt signed with them, LA fans would say Ariza is a much better fit anyway.

Some would.. As a Laker fan I've been touting the merits of Signing Artest to the Lakers for years now.. He's the ideal 3 top play along side Kobe. There isnt really a better fit in the league except maybe Andres Nocioni..whos the other 3 i've wanted for a while now to come to the Lakers

nbafan63
10-07-2009, 07:33 PM
Anyone who thinks that Artest is better equipped to defend LeBron is fooling themselves. No one in the NBA is capable of defending LeBron by himself. In order to keep LeBron in check, you need a good team defense. Ideally, you want a very good post defender who can challenge LeBron when he gets to the rim. Bynum is no Dwight Howard, but he is an above average post defender.

The ideal player to defend LeBron on the perimeter is a quicker, yet strong defender (In the Tayshaun Prince mold) who can do a decent job of staying in front of him but won't be completely dominated physically (a la Kevin Durant.) Ariza is the ideal perimeter defender because he has the length and strength to attempt to stay in front of him (well, as well anyone can.)

Anyone who watched the Blazers/Houston playoff series last season knows that Artest could not stay in front of Brandon Roy (Battier could, which is why Houston won.) To think that Artest has a chance of staying in front of LeBron consistently is laughable.

The only benefit that I see Artest bringing to the Lakers is that he can make the opposition work more on the other end. The elite SF's will score better against Artest, but because Ariza isn't very active on the offensive end, those guys are allowed to rest on the defensive end (unless they get to defend Kobe.) Artest's physicality won't help him defensively, but if he plays physically on the offensive end of the ball, elite SF's will tire faster by having to defend Artest as opposed to Ariza.

>>>
>>> I feel like here we have been telling you why the Lakers got artest to stop the bigger SFs. And here you are bringing up how a 195 pound SG smoked Artest. Why Adelman put Artest on Roy is beyong me, but we know skinny little guards will run circles around him. Artest is a big dude, he 6'7" 260 lb.

Why do you talk b.s. with no proof to back your theory up? If Ariza is so good at defending Lebron then why did Kobe have to check Lebron? Because Phil Jackson the 10 champion was too stupid to see that Ariza easily could have stopped Lebron or slowed him down?? You are just ********.
Here let me show you some stats to back up what I've been saying that while no one can stop Lebron, Artest sure can slow him down.

Last yr Houston vs Cav. One of the 5 worst games Lebron had all year.

Feb 26 Cleveland @ HOU L 74-93 33:51 min played

(7 / 21) 33% FG
1 RB
0 ASST
3 TO
1 STL
2 BLK
21 PT

Lebron AVG for the Season:

49% FG
7.6RB
7.3ASST
3 TO
1.7STL
1.2BLK
28.4 PPG AVG


Artest checked Lebron the whole game. I watched the game, Artest played Lebron very physical and pretty much shut Lebron down. Don't believe me? Go on you tube and search Cavs vs. Rocket Feb 26 2009.

Basically you need to do some research before you talk out of your azz. Cuz you sound stupid as hell.

nbafan63
10-07-2009, 07:45 PM
WTH? Thats all we've heard about that trade.

But unlike Ariza vs Artest, VC is actually more efficient despite carrying the heavier load than the guy hes replacing, hes a legit all-star that can adapt to any team. And their skill sets are very similar, the difference being anything Hedo can do, Vince can do better.

With Artest you have to hope he doesnt take away too many touches, and that his shooting outweighs Ariza's slashing. And honestly with Kobe and Fisher taking so many jumpers, Ariza was the 1 guy who consistently looked to attack. I guess Kobe can always go back to attacking the rim with Artest spacing the floor but one thing about Artest, for some reason his jumpshot always gos south come playoff, so lets add that to list of worries. Artest playoff history is a joke


LOL. Ariza was the 1 guy who consistently looked to attack? He avg like 8 points a game. Ariza slashes really well. Lebron posts up very well. Ariza can make steals, so can Artest. Ariza can roam, Artest can body up. Different skill sets. Different size. Kobe can do everything that Ariza can do. But Kobe can't do everything defensively that Artest can do. Get it?

mikantsass
10-07-2009, 08:05 PM
Why Artest over Ariza? because Artest is better. Period.

blackjack_119
10-07-2009, 08:27 PM
>>>
>>> I feel like here we have been telling you why the Lakers got artest to stop the bigger SFs. And here you are bringing up how a 195 pound SG smoked Artest. Why Adelman put Artest on Roy is beyong me, but we know skinny little guards will run circles around him. Artest is a big dude, he 6'7" 260 lb.

Why do you talk b.s. with no proof to back your theory up? If Ariza is so good at defending Lebron then why did Kobe have to check Lebron? Because Phil Jackson the 10 champion was too stupid to see that Ariza easily could have stopped Lebron or slowed him down?? You are just ********.
Here let me show you some stats to back up what I've been saying that while no one can stop Lebron, Artest sure can slow him down.

Last yr Houston vs Cav. One of the 5 worst games Lebron had all year.

Feb 26 Cleveland @ HOU L 74-93 33:51 min played

(7 / 21) 33% FG
1 RB
0 ASST
3 TO
1 STL
2 BLK
21 PT

Lebron AVG for the Season:

49% FG
7.6RB
7.3ASST
3 TO
1.7STL
1.2BLK
28.4 PPG AVG


Artest checked Lebron the whole game. I watched the game, Artest played Lebron very physical and pretty much shut Lebron down. Don't believe me? Go on you tube and search Cavs vs. Rocket Feb 26 2009.

Basically you need to do some research before you talk out of your azz. Cuz you sound stupid as hell.


Here you are bringing up how a 195 pound SG smoked Artest. Why Adelman put Artest on Roy is beyong me, but we know skinny little guards will run circles around him. Artest is a big dude, he 6'7" 260 lb.

Brandon Roy isn't 195. Brandon Roy isn't a "skinny little guard." Brandon Roy doesn't run circles around anyone. Roy's game relies on craftiness which is why it was so shocking to see how badly Artest looked against him. Also, not that it matters, Battier was on Roy most of the time. Artest only defended him when Battier was out of the game.


If Ariza is so good at defending Lebron then why did Kobe have to check Lebron?

Since my theory is "have a quicker perimeter guy defending LeBron who is strong enough that he can't be completely backed down, then Kobe>Ariza>Artest" So even with Artest, Kobe will likely defend LeBron, only LeBron will take advantage of the Lakers even more when Kobe is out of the game.


Here let me show you some stats to back up what I've been saying that while no one can stop Lebron, Artest sure can slow him down... I watched the game, Artest played Lebron very physical and pretty much shut Lebron down. Don't believe me? Go on you tube and search Cavs vs. Rocket Feb 26 2009.

I watched the video on Youtube. Artest was shown defending LeBron twice. Once he easily went by Artest and Battier slid in front of him for charge and the second time, LeBron easily got by Artest and dunked.

So based on YOUR analysis, Brandon Roy can be characterized as a 195 lb lightning bug who scores by running circles around people and LeBron was shut down by Artest when the only video evidence shows Artest getting burned twice. I guess I have to take you at your word about Artest defending him all game, but I highly doubt that was the case especially from the clip. And the fact that Battier is the best perimeter defender of the last decade.

Verbal Christ
10-07-2009, 08:41 PM
^^ yea we get that kobe doesnt stand still on defense more often than not, its nice to see him bring it against the elite every once in a while but where was this stellar defense or offense for that matter during the playoffs? taking 30 shots a game to get your 17 ppg is not necessarily winning basketball mmkay, they are usually 3 pointers where he takes one dribble to his left, fading backwards, you know the high percentage ones, or then he gets mad when for whatever reason they arent falling, and bulldozes his way to the basket, and you know how much the refs love ol' ron ron dont ya, then he'll hobble around like he was riding a budweiser clydesdale for a couple of days and tell you the story of how he played ball in NYC on too much blacktop and he needs to have an ankle ligament transplant or something like that. we all get it, you love anybody who goes to LA but why not be realistic, ariza has the world in front of him, and finally has a chance to be MORE THAN just a role player and artest is one good buffet away from shawn kemp. you'll be able to count on one hand the amount of times he dunks, and/or posts people up with all of that mass and size.

blazerman
10-07-2009, 08:50 PM
Good post newbie, we all kinda knew that was the philosophy by bringing in Ron Ron. He's a big talent and just how much he helps remains to be seen, we can all speculate but really it will have to show in crunch time in clutch games.
I may BS you Laker fans alot but we all know Ron Ron isnt gonna make them a worse team. Ariza did alot of the intangibles but I think Artest gives you the same stuff.
The Lakers will be tough but they can beat just like any other team. I wouldnt worry about Artest too much though, the Lakers are good as is. Now just send them to Portland for there annual whoopin. I swear everytime the Lakers lose in Portland they go and tear s**t up for a month straight everytime. haha

Chronz
10-07-2009, 08:56 PM
LOL. Ariza was the 1 guy who consistently looked to attack? He avg like 8 points a game. Ariza slashes really well.
Why are you laughing when you basically said the same thing I did. If you think I was talking about his scoring average by saying he consistently looked to attack then should post around here abit more before trying to discuss ball with me.


Lebron posts up very well.
Hes vastly improved but its an aspect of the game where he has the most detractors. Ask anybody


Ariza can make steals, so can Artest.
The difference is Artest loses more on his gambles


Ariza can roam, Artest can body up. Different skill sets. Different size.
Yes nobody ever said they were similar


Kobe can do everything that Ariza can do. But Kobe can't do everything defensively that Artest can do. Get it?
LOL sure I get it

MackSnackWrap
10-07-2009, 08:57 PM
They feel that Artest is a upgrade from ariza its questionable but w.e ima a lakers fan so aslong as it works and they wina ring i dont care

Don P.Belasario
10-07-2009, 09:11 PM
Cuz Artest is thug and I love watchin him push around Lebron. Incidentally Joey Graham plays him real well too. LBJ does not like physical play... Another similarity to Vince Carter... go on LBJ fans bring the hate...

nbafan63
10-07-2009, 10:13 PM
Brandon Roy isn't 195. Brandon Roy isn't a "skinny little guard." Brandon Roy doesn't run circles around anyone. Roy's game relies on craftiness which is why it was so shocking to see how badly Artest looked against him. Also, not that it matters, Battier was on Roy most of the time. Artest only defended him when Battier was out of the game.



Since my theory is "have a quicker perimeter guy defending LeBron who is strong enough that he can't be completely backed down, then Kobe>Ariza>Artest" So even with Artest, Kobe will likely defend LeBron, only LeBron will take advantage of the Lakers even more when Kobe is out of the game.



I watched the video on Youtube. Artest was shown defending LeBron twice. Once he easily went by Artest and Battier slid in front of him for charge and the second time, LeBron easily got by Artest and dunked.

So based on YOUR analysis, Brandon Roy can be characterized as a 195 lb lightning bug who scores by running circles around people and LeBron was shut down by Artest when the only video evidence shows Artest getting burned twice. I guess I have to take you at your word about Artest defending him all game, but I highly doubt that was the case especially from the clip. And the fact that Battier is the best perimeter defender of the last decade.


>>> Seriously, who cares about your theory? Who are you? 10 time world champion coach? And Brandon Roy is 205 this season. So yes he is a quick athletic Shooting guard. And no Artest did not only guard lebron 2 times the whole game. Are you just dumb? Artest checked Lebron whole game and Battier switched on Lebron and artest was out. You watch a 1min clip of the game and base judgement on that? Seriously dude, watch the whole game before you talk.

Shady66
10-07-2009, 11:23 PM
>>> Seriously, who cares about your theory? Who are you? 10 time world champion coach? And Brandon Roy is 205 this season. So yes he is a quick athletic Shooting guard. And no Artest did not only guard lebron 2 times the whole game. Are you just dumb? Artest checked Lebron whole game and Battier switched on Lebron and artest was out. You watch a 1min clip of the game and base judgement on that? Seriously dude, watch the whole game before you talk.

Thats pretty funny, you say nobody cares about his theory, and hes not a 10 tiime champion coach, but are you?
No.

Why post your theory, if all your gonna do is insult people who disagree with you?

Hawkeye15
10-07-2009, 11:33 PM
>>> Seriously, who cares about your theory? Who are you? 10 time world champion coach? And Brandon Roy is 205 this season. So yes he is a quick athletic Shooting guard. And no Artest did not only guard lebron 2 times the whole game. Are you just dumb? Artest checked Lebron whole game and Battier switched on Lebron and artest was out. You watch a 1min clip of the game and base judgement on that? Seriously dude, watch the whole game before you talk.

move outside your single matchups, and look at Artest's season defensive rating, vs Ariza, then factor in the age, and what you get is this: Artest and Ariza were basically equal last year, although different defenders, Artest more of a team defender at this point, Ariza moving from a team defender into an individual defender (though some matchups are still a problem due to his stature at a young age), and you have Ariza over Artest for the upcoming season.
It really is that simple.
As far as offensive efficiency, it won't matter. Artest will be asked to sacrifice shots. He won't get more than a handful of plays a game run for him.
Ariza was too expensive to hold onto, I get that, but he was still the better option for LA. Now, LA is still the favorites in my mind, they have great depth, and are just too strong offensively. But they will be lucky to finish in the top 10 defensively this year, and that may be asking too much

DCB/LAL
10-08-2009, 12:10 AM
Ariza and Artest both known for their D however difference is......

Ariza has done it for 1 year with 1 team and Artest with different teams has done it......well you get the point.

Raph12
10-08-2009, 12:24 AM
Artest has more value to a team that needs him to be a primary option, Ariza has more value to a team with stars in place. When their roles are put in perspective, Ariza is the better and more valuable player, especially for that team.

And the thread is idiotic, GM's and Coaches alike have spoken up on the matter so its not like its just us dumb fans.


Either way the Lakers should still win the title so its not like we are clowning on your team, just that Id like your chances to repeat awhole lot more if you kept the better player.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey! We finally agree on something! Cheers to that! :cheers:


WTH? Thats all we've heard about that trade.

But unlike Ariza vs Artest, VC is actually more efficient despite carrying the heavier load than the guy hes replacing, hes a legit all-star that can adapt to any team. And their skill sets are very similar, the difference being anything Hedo can do, Vince can do better.

With Artest you have to hope he doesnt take away too many touches, and that his shooting outweighs Ariza's slashing. And honestly with Kobe and Fisher taking so many jumpers, Ariza was the 1 guy who consistently looked to attack. I guess Kobe can always go back to attacking the rim with Artest spacing the floor but one thing about Artest, for some reason his jumpshot always gos south come playoff, so lets add that to list of worries. Artest playoff history is a joke

Oh **** 2 for 2, we're on a roll! :cheers:

ARMIN12NBA
10-08-2009, 12:25 AM
Artest was amazing tonight. 12/9/7. He is surprisingly ridiculously unselfish. He was constantly passing up shots and mainly focused on rebounding and defense. Pretty amazing sight to see as the team ran so smoothly. He also worked with Bynum very well and they constantly hooked up for easy buckets.

For the people who claimed that Artest was a huge ball-hog, I saw the antithesis of that tonight. He is the complete opposite of a ball-hog and is very much about team.

Personally I feel this is so because it was finally his decision to play for this team. He wasn't drafted to the Lakers or traded to the Lakers (like CHI, IND, SAC, and HOU). He personally decided to sign with the Lakers and finally feels he has a fantastic chance of winning the championship. He is way more mature than he was as a youngster and knows what it takes.

I'm excited.

DCB/LAL
10-08-2009, 12:31 AM
Artest was amazing tonight. 12/9/7. He is surprisingly ridiculously unselfish. He was constantly passing up shots and mainly focused on rebounding and defense. Pretty amazing sight to see as the team ran so smoothly. He also worked with Bynum very well and they constantly hooked up for easy buckets.

For the people who claimed that Artest was a huge ball-hog, I saw the antithesis of that tonight. He is the complete opposite of a ball-hog and is very much about team.

Personally I feel this is so because it was finally his decision to play for this team. He wasn't drafted to the Lakers or traded to the Lakers (like CHI, IND, SAC, and HOU). He personally decided to sign with the Lakers and finally feels he has a fantastic chance of winning the championship. He is way more mature than he was as a youngster and knows what it takes.

I'm excited.

Yeah I noticed that too passed up a couple open 3s now im sure some poster will come and say just wait till playoffs or something like but today he looked good.


Oh another note Ariza was 1-11 today and 0-4 from 3 idk how he played his forst game though. :shrug:

ARMIN12NBA
10-08-2009, 12:35 AM
Yeah I noticed that too passed up a couple open 3s now im sure some poster will come and say just wait till playoffs or something like but today he looked good.


Oh another note Ariza was 1-11 today and 0-4 from 3 idk how he played his forst game though. :shrug:

Quite possibly. At the same time, Artest has never been in this situation before and has matured drastically in his life over the past couple years.

Teeboy1487
10-08-2009, 12:43 AM
Artest looks like he is going to fit in well. I agree with you Armin. He is an unselfish player. His role with the lakers is going to be a lot easier than it was in Houston. As long as he makes open shots, he will be fine.

Raph12
10-08-2009, 12:48 AM
Artest was great tonight, now this is the preseason and all sorts of guys are doing things they wouldn't normally do. But if Artest continues to play the type of ball he did tonight, I'm predicting an LA repeat!

ARMIN12NBA
10-08-2009, 12:51 AM
Artest was great tonight, now this is the preseason and all sorts of guys are doing things they wouldn't normally do. But if Artest continues to play the type of ball he did tonight, I'm predicting an LA repeat!

It wasn't even about stats. It was more about how he approached the game both offensively and defensively. His MINDSET was what I was mostly analyzing and his mindset was damn fantastic.

Raph12
10-08-2009, 01:22 AM
It wasn't even about stats. It was more about how he approached the game both offensively and defensively. His MINDSET was what I was mostly analyzing and his mindset was damn fantastic.

That's what I mean, "doing things you wouldn't normally do"
Ie. guys like Dwight Howard and Greg Oden taking jumpshots

If Artest plays the same way he did tonight, all season/playoffs long, the Lakeshow will repeat, book it.

Penetra8r
10-08-2009, 03:07 AM
Kobe and Artest = chemistry in the makings

yopotna
10-08-2009, 03:38 AM
Ariza is a good player and will only get better, but simply put, Artest is just a more seasoned, experienced and better player right now which if your goal is to win this year, was the right choice to make. Yeah, he's a head case and a bit unpredictable but so was Dennis Rodman and I believe that we helped the Pistons and Bulls win a few titles. The decision to go after Artest was to make the team a little better as the competition will only be better next year. Kobe is 31 and their window for championships is only 2 to 3 more years before LeBron starts the Cleveland championship run.

caseyv415
10-08-2009, 03:42 AM
And the rest look through little bias glass of hate and envy. we call you guys haters. How come we don't hear much about VC replacing Hedo?? That's a championship caliber team also but no one is saying much about that, why?? And sure Hedo puts up better #s than Ariza.

:cheers:
Are you drunk?? You probably didn't hear much of Hedo+VC because this is your presh little Laker thread,FREAK!
Take a valium and another shot and maybe life won't be so bad in the morning..
Ariza has many years left
Artest has few years left
= Bad Trade, not hatin breh.. I'd be mad if my team traded away the future too
chill buddy, chill

DCB/LAL
10-08-2009, 03:49 AM
:cheers:
Are you drunk?? You probably didn't hear much of Hedo+VC because this is your presh little Laker thread,FREAK!
Take a valium and another shot and maybe life won't be so bad in the morning..
Ariza has many years left
Artest has few years left
= Bad Trade, not hatin breh.. I'd be mad if my team traded away the future too
chill buddy, chill

Keep telling yourself that "Breh"..


For starters "breh" it wasn't a trade just a little FYI...


Secondly "Breh" if the Lakers happen to repeat then the Lakers made the right choice after all its all about winning Cahpionships is it not??

Chronz
10-08-2009, 03:56 AM
Shaq and Bron looked scary good today as well, I didnt see the Rocket game, what was up with Ariza?

DCB/LAL
10-08-2009, 03:58 AM
Shaq and Bron looked scary good today as well, I didnt see the Rocket game, what was up with Ariza?

Not sure but obviously didnt do too good at 1-11 and 0-4 from 3 how did he do his first game?

caseyv415
10-08-2009, 03:59 AM
Keep telling yourself that "Breh"..


For starters "breh" it wasn't a trade just a little FYI...


Secondly "Breh" if the Lakers happen to repeat then the Lakers made the right choice after all its all about winning Cahpionships is it not??

I guess we know who created the thread now.. Freak
Try Tylenol PM and SOMA with a little Clorox and forget about it BREH!
And for your FYI great rebuttle

caseyv415
10-08-2009, 04:00 AM
Keep telling yourself that "Breh"..


For starters "breh" it wasn't a trade just a little FYI...


Secondly "Breh" if the Lakers happen to repeat then the Lakers made the right choice after all its all about winning Cahpionships is it not??

:cry: not a trade :cry: a swap, a bad one at that FYI

DCB/LAL
10-08-2009, 05:24 AM
I guess we know who created the thread now.. Freak
Try Tylenol PM and SOMA with a little Clorox and forget about it BREH!
And for your FYI great rebuttle

Well obviously you've tried it or you wouldn't recommend it.....so how'd that work for ya and for your attempt at sarcasm which was dumb but sadly for you no I didn't start this thread. :D

nbafan63
10-08-2009, 06:20 AM
Well obviously you've tried it or you wouldn't recommend it.....so how'd that work for ya and for your attempt at sarcasm which was dumb but sadly for you no I didn't start this thread. :D



>> That dude is just clueless. He says trade young for old is bad. But hey what did they trade away to get VC? Young C. Lee. But its ok, he wont talk trash there since he only hates the Lakers.

BTW, My theory is the same Theory is GM Mitch K. and 10 time champion coach Phil Jackson. So everyone that says the Artest-Ariza swap is a bad move obviously thinks they know more about basketball over a championship coach and a championship owner as well as their players. So why tell me I'm wrong? All your arguments basically say Ariza is younger and faster. So? Does that mean he is better than Artest? Same argument can be said that Artest is more experienced and stronger. Some of you sound sooooo stupid when you post and pretend to be "knowledgeable" about basketball when its pretty obvious you know nothing about matchups.

knickfan4life
10-08-2009, 06:42 AM
as good as Ariza is as a defender, he was NEVER and will never be defensive player of the year... artest had that... artest is a SUPERSTAR in the NBA, believe it or not, had artest not have been suspended after that detroit indiana brawl, he would have gotten a NICE contract worth his talent, hes just dumb and acts up, dropping his value, but in my opinion, artest is a VERYYY good player with a LOT more talent that ariza. now, im sure ariza will amount to a decent player, but hes not artest, not now, not later. artest is a better defender and better on the offensive end. Stronger, wont get bullied and may bully a few around himself lol... i love this acquisiton by the lakers, even tho i am not a fan of the lakers per say, i think they will take the next TWO championships.

caseyv415
10-08-2009, 08:08 AM
well you guys sound like the same guy.. you should hang out and drink Clorox together.. yes, take my word for it, its grrreat! I hope it works better on you though! try it, really!!
Oh and C. Lee sux btw

Double_R
10-08-2009, 09:23 AM
artest is a SUPERSTAR in the NBA

THat is not true at all, that being said it definitely keeps the Lakers as the Favorites

Artest is known to take some really bad shots, but that is also when he plays on a bad team and has to take more shots than he should. THat being said, it will not happen on the Lakers because Kobe and Lamar(one of his best friends) will keep him in check, plus he will get way better looks with Kobe on the floor.

All of these people acting like Ariza is some amazing offensive powerhouse... the guy knocked down OPEN 3s in the playoffs, so he did his job, but he is very limited outside of some dunks and open shots... 90% of the shots Ariza took in the playoffs were when Kobe was getting doubled and Ariza was left wide open to knock down the shot. Artest can do the same, plus Artest is one of the better post up players in the NBA at his position and will fit in the triangle very nicely

On to the defense... Ariza and Artest aren't even in the same universe defensively... Ariza is quick, can play good help D, and can play the passing lanes well and he's long, but Artest is capable of taking an elite player out of the game.

Artest and Ariza aren't in same category, Artest is such a better player in pretty much every aspect.

G-Funk
10-08-2009, 10:39 AM
But they(Lakers) will be lucky to finish in the top 10 defensively this year, and that may be asking too much

Another classic post by Hawkeye15, I wonder who he has ahead of the Lakers. Any Laker want this as a Sig?

TheMicrowave
10-08-2009, 10:49 AM
or fans that understand basketball. Either/or

And this is coming from the guy who said Kobe was never going to win another championship and could not win without Shaq.

Artest is better than Ariza. It does not mean the Lakers are locked for the championship. Kobe is a year older, as well as the rest of the team. I think they'll be in the hunt all next year, but it is hard to really decide who's going to be the top team with all the off-season trades.

gr824
10-08-2009, 10:55 AM
THat is not true at all, that being said it definitely keeps the Lakers as the Favorites

Artest is known to take some really bad shots, but that is also when he plays on a bad team and has to take more shots than he should. THat being said, it will not happen on the Lakers because Kobe and Lamar(one of his best friends) will keep him in check, plus he will get way better looks with Kobe on the floor.

All of these people acting like Ariza is some amazing offensive powerhouse... the guy knocked down OPEN 3s in the playoffs, so he did his job, but he is very limited outside of some dunks and open shots... 90% of the shots Ariza took in the playoffs were when Kobe was getting doubled and Ariza was left wide open to knock down the shot. Artest can do the same, plus Artest is one of the better post up players in the NBA at his position and will fit in the triangle very nicely

On to the defense... Ariza and Artest aren't even in the same universe defensively... Ariza is quick, can play good help D, and can play the passing lanes well and he's long, but Artest is capable of taking an elite player out of the game.

Artest and Ariza aren't in same category, Artest is such a better player in pretty much every aspect.

Excellent assessment, written by someone who evidently watches games and understands what he sees as opposed to the posts of some in this forum/thread who harbor dubious agendas, state their 'opinions' [ which are really little more than wild conjecture without sound basis ], and crunch/cite suspect numbers outside and far removed from the proper reference/context, the 'real' action on the court ...

sep11ie
10-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Lets see how happy Kobe is when Ron dribbles the ball for 23 seconds at the top of the key only to shoot a contested three. Wow, that was even better than his raps.

KnicksorBust
10-08-2009, 11:17 AM
It's a lot easier to fill the #3/#4 role on the Lakers than the #2/#3 role on the Rockets. Artest is finally in a situation where he never has to press things because it's going to be so much easier to win in L.A. I think he'll completely flourish there and they'll stay focused trying to make sure he stays in line and fits in. Meanwhile I think Ariza is screwed. He'll keep his head above water but Rockets fans should keep their expectations low.

mrmike101
10-08-2009, 11:32 AM
I think a huge upgrade is present offensively as well as defensively (which has been well documented already).

Ariza's small build allowed shooting guards to defend him while stronger forwards would check Kobe. Kobe could handle them, but obviously not dominate them as well as he could on a smaller guard.

This season, that simply will not and cannot happen. Artest's size and ability in the post prohibits any team from sensibly cross matching. Artest would absolutely destroy a guard. Thus, teams will simply have to place a guard on Kobe, which will only add to the benefit of Bryant. He will have easier matchups while on offense playing against lighter opponents.

Greatd analyisis but why must you ride poles? Like omg you don't feel the least bit funny or lame have you no shame?! You did not need to say kobe could handle them, over did it as usual typical. This laker team is amazing artest is a huge upgrade over ariza, but laker fans are still bi curious(or just plain gay).

mitch91
10-08-2009, 11:43 AM
Thank you sir! I've been reading the forums for a while now. Never really chimed in on the discussion because most of the time someone else already said what I wanted to say. But this whole Ariza > Artest argument is just mind blowing to me. Because they are different type of players playing the SF position. Ariza is quick and slender. Artest is bulky and not as fast anymore but they serve different purpose. Most people are comparing them like they have the same body type with same skill set, which they don't.

i dont think anybody is saying that ariza is better than artest, i think the arguement is that artest could blow up at any second and can be a ball stopper on offense! thats the main arguement and the lakers won the title with ariza so if it aint broke then why fix it?

but i think that if artest was still on the rockets team most lakers fans would say ariza was better but now hes on their team artest is now better lol

ShockerArt
10-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Why do some of you pretend to know more about building a championship team than a NBA GM and a hall of fame coach in Phil Jackson?

As a Lakers fan, I have my concerns about the Artest-Ariza "swap". But I've posted on that enough. I want to address the opening comment. I don't think any reasonable people in here would pretend to know more than Phil Jackson. No one has the playing/coaching experience to compete with his knowledge of the game.

But, I don't have any problem with people questioning GMs in any sport. Maybe a lot of people don't have the proper business/financial background to handle that aspect. But, as far as talent evaluation and personnel decision-making goes, I think that some of the more intelligent fans could compete with the bottom level GMs. It doesn't take a genius to do that part of the job. You have to be hard-working, thorough in your research, and have a knowledge of the game. You don't have to have an advanced degree or be an ex-player or coach to evaluate talent and understand personnel. You don't think that there are plenty of die-hard NBA fans in these forums that could've done a better job with the Knicks than Isiah Thomas did?

Lakersfan2483
10-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Artest was amazing tonight. 12/9/7. He is surprisingly ridiculously unselfish. He was constantly passing up shots and mainly focused on rebounding and defense. Pretty amazing sight to see as the team ran so smoothly. He also worked with Bynum very well and they constantly hooked up for easy buckets.

For the people who claimed that Artest was a huge ball-hog, I saw the antithesis of that tonight. He is the complete opposite of a ball-hog and is very much about team.

Personally I feel this is so because it was finally his decision to play for this team. He wasn't drafted to the Lakers or traded to the Lakers (like CHI, IND, SAC, and HOU). He personally decided to sign with the Lakers and finally feels he has a fantastic chance of winning the championship. He is way more mature than he was as a youngster and knows what it takes.

I'm excited.

:clap: Artest is a much better playmaker then people give him credit for, he will fit in just fine as a laker.

nbafan63
10-08-2009, 03:46 PM
Wait till Lakers vs. Houston. Artest will own Ariza. He will man handle Ariza like Ariza was his ******. He will make Ariza moan and scream.

MiamiHeat
10-08-2009, 03:57 PM
Ariza has become so overrated
he will suck this season

Chronz
10-08-2009, 05:29 PM
:clap: Artest is a much better playmaker then people give him credit for, he will fit in just fine as a laker.

I can agree with that, I never thought his handles were as good until I saw him last year. And its not like anyone is saying he wont be a good Laker, just that he wont be Ariza in that role.

Chronz
10-08-2009, 05:30 PM
Ariza has become to overrated
he will suck this season
So you think Ariza will suck for no reason other than people are talking about him?

jdricks
10-08-2009, 09:31 PM
Artest was a better fit for there another for back to back so they can get Kobe and Bynum out and still have a stable offense on the floor with Fisher, Sasha, Artest,Odom, Pau. This helps keep Kobe fresh for the 4th quarter along with the season. There rotation at this point becomes even better and interchangeable.

Ariza was mostly a slasher and spot up 3 point shooter, but now they have a scorer. The ball will become more shared along with Kobes assist numbers going up and shots taken down but about the same in average points.

Ariza does get to play with Tmac though even if he has been hurt lately. If those two can build chemistry, they could make some noise.

Toenail Clipper
10-08-2009, 09:57 PM
How come when I saw the preseason game at KCAL 9, Artest was so hesitant to shoot the ball beyond the arc! I know one game doesn't define anything, but I'm just scared.

Diesel44
10-08-2009, 10:36 PM
Wait till Lakers vs. Houston. Artest will own Ariza. He will man handle Ariza like Ariza was his ******. He will make Ariza moan and scream.

Yeah, cos he did so well when they were on opposite teams. Look, this is the nonest assesment of Ron-Ron and the "swap" overall. It was in the Houston CHRON a week after they sigmed. Laker fan take it for what its worth. From what I saw in Houston and definitely from what I saw in the playoffs teh Ron-Ron analysis is dead on.




That is why Trevor Ariza is a better choice for the current Rockets than Ron Artest.

The more interesting question will be whether Artest will be better for the Lakers than Ariza was.

Artest is better equipped to carry a team than Ariza. Perhaps Ariza will grow into that, but for now, Artest is more of a force, capable of unstoppable individual stretches.

The problem for the Rockets, however, would have been Artest's inability to control himself when he feels a need to carry a team. He was at his best last season when he learned how to play with Yao, something that bodes well for the Lakers.

When Yao was out, however, Artest was way out there. He might have chosen the Lakers to make up for the damage he did to them in Games 5 and 7. With Ariza, you won't get the 16 seconds of dribbling followed by a goofy 3. You also won't get a guy that dribbles for 16 seconds and hits 3s, dominating games and stealing a few.

Ariza, given his history with the Lakers, is more likely to be able to increase his role and still keep it under control. Artest truly is driven by a passionate desire to win. Sometimes that gets the best of him. With what's left of the Rockets, he likely would have been the Sacramento Ron again. It makes more sense long term for the Rockets to go with the younger athlete with untapped, if unpredictable, potential.

The Lakers' move is tougher to predict. Artest can bring more than Ariza did. He immediately ends any potential for post championship complacency. When Kobe Bryant is out of the game, Artest can drive the offense, which was the role the Rockets imagined for him when he was joining a team they thought would include Yao and Tracy McGrady.

If he plays a diminished role to fit in, however, working off Bryant and Pau Gasol and picking his spots, then he is what Trevor Ariza was. That's not so bad. The Lakers won a championship that way. And there can be times when Artest can bring more.

Like most good trades, this one can help both teams. It is a safer move for the Rockets, which is odd considering they are bringing in the younger player with the less predictable ceiling. That might be, however, because they have far less to lose.

Blogging pro basketball with Jonathan Feigen


JNA17
10-08-2009, 11:09 PM
I like ariza and still do even though he's on a different team now but he's becoming very overrated. Seriously theirs a thing called "contract year" everybody plays very that year. And most of the time just that 1 year for a big pay day.

Just ask players like mark blount, sasha vujacic, luke walton, etc. They all played well in their contract year and most of the players, (esspicically the ones i mentioned) sucked the rest of the years except that 1 contract year.

So far it looks like to be pretty much the case for ariza. I mean think about it, when the **** have any of you heard his name all the time? Hardly right? Then when he came to LA one year, did pretty decent during the year he got injured in 2008, then in 2009 all of a sudden it seemed he was going to be the "real thing".

Ariza has all the tools to be that kind of player that only did well to get that huge pay day.

With all that said, i think he will do pretty well but for a guy that needs to be a much much better at man to man defense, and needs to actually create his own shot and not have a player like kobe or gasol giving him those open looks, then he will do just fine.

Artest right now seems to fit right in the laker system. Even though it was just 1 preseason game, he seemed very comfortable with the players around him.

G-Funk
10-09-2009, 04:11 PM
i dont think anybody is saying that ariza is better than artest, i think the arguement is that artest could blow up at any second and can be a ball stopper on offense! thats the main arguement and the lakers won the title with ariza so if it aint broke then why fix it?

but i think that if artest was still on the rockets team most lakers fans would say ariza was better but now hes on their team artest is now better lol

I really doubt that Kobe,Fisher, Phil and Odom will let him destroy the team. I don't think he's big enought to do that. Also Lakers arent fixing it they're just upgrading it. Last, I wanted Artest on the Lakers since he played for the Queens, I wanted to trade Bynum for him but I would also be pretty confident if Lakers would have signed Ariza instead, only difference is that im more confident in my team with Ron.Ron.

Unruly Fan
10-09-2009, 05:05 PM
I have a feeling that most people will be surprised by Ariza this season (once again). He took most teams by surprise last year slyly coming off the bench wreaking havoc on opposing teams second tier squads and fatigued starters. Ariza was pretty much free to do whatever he wanted on the floor with other teams having to deal with more dangerous threats in Pau, Kobe and even Odom. I believe that starter position on Houston is gonna be a rude awakening for him when he'll be expected to play longer minutes. Achieving the same success offensively and defensively will no doubt be harder when teams expect it this time around.

Chronz
10-09-2009, 05:13 PM
I have a feeling that most people will be surprised by Ariza this season (once again). He took most teams by surprise last year slyly coming off the bench wreaking havoc on opposing teams second tier squads and fatigued starters. Ariza was pretty much free to do whatever he wanted on the floor with other teams having to deal with more dangerous threats in Pau, Kobe and even Odom. I believe that starter position on Houston is gonna be a rude awakening for him when he'll be expected to play longer minutes. Achieving the same success offensively and defensively will no doubt be harder when teams expect it this time around.
Surprised? Most people are dumb... nobody should have been surprised with Ariza's play, unless they knew nothing about him before he got to LA.

You do realize that players tend to play better in the starting lineup Ariza being one of them, the myth that you get better by playing against subs is exactly that. How do you know the opposing teams bench isnt comprised of a better defensive unit than their starters?

Your just making a bunch of irresponsible claims with nothing substantial to back them up. Have you seen Ariza's #'s when neither Kobe or Pau is on the floor? How about his #'s in the previous pit stops, heres a hint, hes been pretty much the same player for years now. Just because you guys didnt know about him in Orlando or briefly in New York doesnt mean he wasnt as talented. Hes improved, but you EXPECT that from a player this young. When the Lakers initially got Ariza the first word that popped into my mind was robbery. If you didnt get that feeling then you really dont know Ariza's game.

The Rockets got him to be who he is, he wasnt brought in to be an offensive player, or even a primary option, just that he continue to improve and expand his game, but sticking to what he does best. Slashing and Defense.

Chronz
10-09-2009, 05:18 PM
I like ariza and still do even though he's on a different team now but he's becoming very overrated. Seriously theirs a thing called "contract year" everybody plays very that year. And most of the time just that 1 year for a big pay day.
Except that hes played like this every year of his career.


Just ask players like mark blount, sasha vujacic, luke walton, etc. They all played well in their contract year and most of the players, (esspicically the ones i mentioned) sucked the rest of the years except that 1 contract year.

I asked them, NONE of them displayed the consistency Ariza has throughout their careers, NONE of them displayed that defensive prowess at such a young age.



So far it looks like to be pretty much the case for ariza. I mean think about it, when the **** have any of you heard his name all the time? Hardly right? Then when he came to LA one year, did pretty decent during the year he got injured in 2008, then in 2009 all of a sudden it seemed he was going to be the "real thing".

OMG, so your basing your opinion on what the masses think? Thats hardly the most accurate way to develop your stance on a player.


Ariza has all the tools to be that kind of player that only did well to get that huge pay day.

With all that said, i think he will do pretty well but for a guy that needs to be a much much better at man to man defense, and needs to actually create his own shot and not have a player like kobe or gasol giving him those open looks, then he will do just fine.

Artest right now seems to fit right in the laker system. Even though it was just 1 preseason game, he seemed very comfortable with the players around him.

I respectfully disagree with everything youve said. Considering the examples you listed, and the fact that the jump in Ariza's game wasnt exponential the way it was with most contract year players.

fresh prince
10-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Except that hes played like this every year of his career.



Trevor Ariza #'s last year:

8 ppg 4 rpg 1.7 spg.

Lookout Baby..Ariza is All Star bound!!

That's how you sound... This is just crazy this convo is still going on

ComputerGuy
10-09-2009, 06:26 PM
One thing to add would be, what if Lamar wanted Artest and that would seal the deal for the Lakers to sign Lamar?

JNA17
10-10-2009, 12:19 AM
Except that hes played like this every year of his career.


u just lost all creditability.

Ariza was crap before he came to LA. He was one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, he was only known for his slashing abilities and having "ok defense", and was just a god awful player on offense overall.

He hardly got any min for the knicks and magic, if he could not even got that much min from teams, (well when the magic were not a great team) then how the hell was he even any good? He was a complete scrub. This is not even hating, that's just what he was.

And all of a sudden he does 1 good year (contract year), and he has ALWAYS been this good? Yea that makes sense. :rolleyes:

Chronz
10-10-2009, 12:32 AM
Trevor Ariza #'s last year:

8 ppg 4 rpg 1.7 spg.

Lookout Baby..Ariza is All Star bound!!

That's how you sound... This is just crazy this convo is still going on
Except that I never said he was All-star bound, see how extreme your stance on the matter is. Your not willing to listen to reason or facts

And please stop wasting both of our times with meaningless per game averages. Why do you even involve stats if you dont know how to interpret them?

Chronz
10-10-2009, 12:34 AM
u just lost all creditability.
Yea I bet


Ariza was crap before he came to LA. He was one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, he was only known for his slashing abilities and having "ok defense", and was just a god awful player on offense overall.

Nothing you said was remotely true, hes always been a great defender and never god awful on offense. LOL do you ever back your arguments with facts?


He hardly got any min for the knicks and magic, if he could not even got that much min from teams, (well when the magic were not a great team) then how the hell was he even any good? He was a complete scrub. This is not even hating, that's just what he was.

Incorrect, he showed great promise his rookie year, and when he was initially traded to Orlando he build on that. He didnt get minutes because he didnt fit the system they were using once they hired SVG. How could you be so clueless about a player you saw all year?



And all of a sudden he does 1 good year (contract year), and he has ALWAYS been this good? Yea that makes sense. :rolleyes:

Incorrect, hes been this good all along, you just never noticed.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2009, 01:32 PM
Trevor Ariza #'s last year:

8 ppg 4 rpg 1.7 spg.

Lookout Baby..Ariza is All Star bound!!

That's how you sound... This is just crazy this convo is still going on

we are comparing 4th options. Neither Artest nor Ariza (at least soon), is going to be considered for an all star game.
The point being made by Chronz and myself, is that Artest is not an upgrade over Ariza. He may have gotten better per game stats due to his role being more on a lesser team, but his overall statistical effect will not equal Ariza's most likely. THe history is there. Most of you don't understand how to look.
I can't believe this convo is still going on either. The evidence is right in front of you, if you look. Get off espn stats, and look up per posession, and numbers that are of importance for 4th options. Since that is what Ron is being asked to do. Unless you think Phil is gonna sit down with Kobe, Pau, Lamar, and even Bynum, and tell them that Ron needs looks. In which case non Laker fans would jizz their pants.

kobelaughsatall
10-10-2009, 08:03 PM
we are comparing 4th options. Neither Artest nor Ariza (at least soon), is going to be considered for an all star game.
The point being made by Chronz and myself, is that Artest is not an upgrade over Ariza. He may have gotten better per game stats due to his role being more on a lesser team, but his overall statistical effect will not equal Ariza's most likely. THe history is there. Most of you don't understand how to look.
I can't believe this convo is still going on either. The evidence is right in front of you, if you look. Get off espn stats, and look up per posession, and numbers that are of importance for 4th options. Since that is what Ron is being asked to do. Unless you think Phil is gonna sit down with Kobe, Pau, Lamar, and even Bynum, and tell them that Ron needs looks. In which case non Laker fans would jizz their pants.

you say you can't believe this convo is still going on and yet you still keep trying to convince of us your opinion. We are going to believe what we want and you are going to believe what you want. No matter what you say you can't convince us that trevor ariza is better than ron artest, no way. So lets just wait until the season ends and the lakers are putting up another title banner, so you can look just as foolish as you did when you said kobe wouldn't win a title as the main man.

cHi8DaL5LA420
10-10-2009, 08:21 PM
thats a little much... but ya im with ya

fresh prince
10-11-2009, 12:06 AM
we are comparing 4th options. Neither Artest nor Ariza (at least soon), is going to be considered for an all star game.
The point being made by Chronz and myself, is that Artest is not an upgrade over Ariza. He may have gotten better per game stats due to his role being more on a lesser team, but his overall statistical effect will not equal Ariza's most likely. THe history is there. Most of you don't understand how to look.
I can't believe this convo is still going on either. The evidence is right in front of you, if you look. Get off espn stats, and look up per posession, and numbers that are of importance for 4th options. Since that is what Ron is being asked to do. Unless you think Phil is gonna sit down with Kobe, Pau, Lamar, and even Bynum, and tell them that Ron needs looks. In which case non Laker fans would jizz their pants.

lol ESPN Stats? You mean like that cook Holllinger? Last I checked he works at ESPN. Ron Artest will be our 4th option but at times he can play as a 2nd or even 1st option.

One of the most important aspects of this upgrade that you and your boy Chronz are over looking is exactly this point. Ariza only has a 4th option skill set on offense! He cannot create his own shot or create shots for others and that will continue to be his major area for improvement offensively speaking..

Ron Artest on the other hand can have the offense ran through him (AT TIMES) and lessen the pressure on Kobe, Pau and Bynum.. Artest has a 1st or 2nd option type of skill set on offense in that he is a good passer, and is a complete mismatch for most 3's in the post..Teams will have to double.. Trev just doesnt have that in his arsenal right now. Where he ever needs to be double teamed.

We can now run out lineups without Pau or Kobe on the Floor and be good offensively. Whereas before signing Artest Phil would have one of the 2 on the floor at all times..

The defensive upgrade speaks for itself. Its an upgrade in what the Lakers needed as a team defensively! Kobe will now only guard the more traditional SG types..and Ron will take the bigger Power 3's that have killed us in the past when we tried to put Ariza, Lamar or Luke on them. None of these dudes could do the job so Kobe eventually had to switch over to guard them. Now Kobe can matchup strictly with SG'S which is ideal for him.

This is really a no brainer..I guess you guys want the Lakers to fail so bad that you are actually starting to believe your own riddiculous argument?

kmoneyjuice
10-11-2009, 12:16 AM
Because he is a better player /thread

Chronz
10-11-2009, 12:23 AM
I hope you plan on responding to my post if your going to toss my name around like you actually understand my argument. Want the Lakers to fail, my god your so clueless, I already said they will probably end up repeating, a team is never drastically altered when your frontcourt depth is the way the Lakers have set up and your best player is in the backcourt. Even had they lost Ariza outright and not have brought Artest youd be the favorites. Simple reason is as good as you guys were last year, Bynum was a shell of his full potential. A heathy Bynum more than offsets the loss of any role player.

LOL I guess me being the only guy Ive seen proclaim Bynum an All-Star makes me a Laker hater. Dude get off your ridiculous stance, I have ZERO BIAS. I love the GAME, I study the GAME. The only player I have any bias towards is Quinton Ross, and hes a scrub.

Im glad you changed your motto, you dont have **** on Marc Stein or Buford whoever it was, and those guys are pretty hollow in the head.

fresh prince
10-11-2009, 12:36 AM
It was RIC Bucher..The Guy who (IN 2007) said he would quit ESPN if Kobe ever played another game for the Lakers

If you believe the Lakers will still win the CHIP....WTF is your argument then?

Raph12
10-11-2009, 12:50 AM
It was RIC Bucher..The Guy who (IN 2007) said he would quit ESPN if Kobe ever played another game for the Lakers

If you believe the Lakers will still win the CHIP....WTF is your argument then?

Chronz's arguement is that Ariza was a better fit for LA than Artest, not better player, not better scorer, not better defender, just a better fit for the Lakers, PERIOD!

Hawkeye15
10-11-2009, 12:52 AM
you say you can't believe this convo is still going on and yet you still keep trying to convince of us your opinion. We are going to believe what we want and you are going to believe what you want. No matter what you say you can't convince us that trevor ariza is better than ron artest, no way. So lets just wait until the season ends and the lakers are putting up another title banner, so you can look just as foolish as you did when you said kobe wouldn't win a title as the main man.

I don't really look foolish on this site. I get to deal with posters such as yourself. I made a wrong prediction, as has everyone here numerous times.
And yes, lets wait for the season. Agree, like I have said all along. I am not questioning the Lakers ability to repeat, I think their offense is just too much. I stated my opinion, that Artest is NOT an upgrade over Artest.
Wow
Lets play ball, this is tiresome.

Chronz
10-11-2009, 12:56 AM
It was RIC Bucher..The Guy who (IN 2007) said he would quit ESPN if Kobe ever played another game for the Lakers

If you believe the Lakers will still win the CHIP....WTF is your argument then?

That Id like your chances awhole lot more if you had just kept Ariza because he is the better player in that system, alongside stars. I think hes better off the ball than Artest is but I could be wrong if Artest focuses solely on his perfect set shot. You know the saying theres only 1 ball, well its the reason teams dont just get players who have the best averages, they look for players who can produce in certain roles.

Ariza being a "role player" doesnt eliminate him from the conversation of being better than a #2-3 option caliber player like Artest. And no hes not a first option player, hes chucked at a first option rate, but hes never displayed the efficiency of a TRUE first option player. **** he hasnt really displayed the overall efficiency of a 2nd option player, but his offensive game isnt the best part of his game.

Ariza has more value on a team with stars than a team with bums, Artest has more value on a team thats bad enough for him to showcase his 2nd rate talent offensively. Ive gone over this enough but I guess I have to reiterate.

I will admit I liked your point about the Lakers being able to throw out a lineup without Kobe and Gasol, and still being effective on both ends. Its something I havent really considered, so Ill refrain from trashing the move even though I never really thought I was trashing it, I just hate the logic people use of, first option beats 2nd option, so and so per game is much better than so and so per game yadda yadda

Anyways, one things for sure , this season will make for an excellent case study.

DCB/LAL
10-11-2009, 08:53 PM
>> That dude is just clueless. He says trade young for old is bad. But hey what did they trade away to get VC? Young C. Lee. But its ok, he wont talk trash there since he only hates the Lakers.

BTW, My theory is the same Theory is GM Mitch K. and 10 time champion coach Phil Jackson. So everyone that says the Artest-Ariza swap is a bad move obviously thinks they know more about basketball over a championship coach and a championship owner as well as their players. So why tell me I'm wrong? All your arguments basically say Ariza is younger and faster. So? Does that mean he is better than Artest? Same argument can be said that Artest is more experienced and stronger. Some of you sound sooooo stupid when you post and pretend to be "knowledgeable" about basketball when its pretty obvious you know nothing about matchups.

Uhh....... Im a Laker fan CHILD!!!!

I have never criticized the Lakers signing of Artest wow........just wow your a........... idk I just dont know :facepalm: :pity:

Vidball
10-12-2009, 01:37 AM
I stated my opinion, that Artest is NOT an upgrade over Artest.
Wow
Lets play ball, this is tiresome.

Good Point :facepalm:

G-Funk
10-12-2009, 10:18 AM
Chronz's arguement is that Ariza was a better fit for LA than Artest, not better player, not better scorer, not better defender, just a better fit for the Lakers, PERIOD!


:facepalm::eyebrow:How can anyone say that Ariza is a better fit than Artest or vice versa if the season haven't even damn started???

G-Funk
10-12-2009, 10:29 AM
If the Lakers are more dominant than last year, then Artest is an upgrade if we are the same then the Artest trade didn't make a sence. If we are worse then we can blame Mitch for letting Ariza walk.

I understand what Hawkeyes and Chronz are saying and it's a legit argument. I think that Ariza was a great fit for the Lakers but I also think that Artest is a better fit not just because Artest is a better overall player but because he can completly change the mind set of a team, from a soft team to a tougher team and into a defensive team.

Hawkeys and Chronz can't deny this.

rjvacad
10-12-2009, 10:53 AM
:facepalm::eyebrow:How can anyone say that Ariza is a better fit than Artest or vice versa if the season haven't even damn started???

That is exactly right, no one knows what is going to happen, Ariza and Artest will show us who is better.

king4day
10-12-2009, 12:31 PM
The Lakers got Shannon Brown as a throw in. They didn't expect him to give them what he did.

Chronz
10-12-2009, 01:17 PM
:facepalm::eyebrow:How can anyone say that Ariza is a better fit than Artest or vice versa if the season haven't even damn started???

Are you seriously asking that question, if so you should delete the post you just wrote immediately after this.


If the Lakers are more dominant than last year, then Artest is an upgrade if we are the same then the Artest trade didn't make a sence. If we are worse then we can blame Mitch for letting Ariza walk.

I understand what Hawkeyes and Chronz are saying and it's a legit argument. I think that Ariza was a great fit for the Lakers but I also think that Artest is a better fit not just because Artest is a better overall player but because he can completly change the mind set of a team, from a soft team to a tougher team and into a defensive team.

Hawkeys and Chronz can't deny this.
Its not that simple, it depends on whos responsible for the Lakers being more dominant. Im not going to credit Artest if the Lakers are better because of Bynum.

And I disagree with everything you just said, toughness doesnt equal better. His toughness hurt the Rockets on many nights and I highly doubt hes going to make your defense better.

G-Funk
10-12-2009, 06:29 PM
Are you seriously asking that question, if so you should delete the post you just wrote immediately after this.
You guys are claiming like there is no possible way that Artest is better for the Lakers. I said that I thought, I never said that I knew.



Its not that simple, it depends on whos responsible for the Lakers being more dominant. Im not going to credit Artest if the Lakers are better because of Bynum.

And I disagree with everything you just said, toughness doesnt equal better. His toughness hurt the Rockets on many nights and I highly doubt hes going to make your defense better.

By these statements, your'e never going to admit that the Lakers got better because of Artest.

Chronz
10-13-2009, 05:22 PM
You guys are claiming like there is no possible way that Artest is better for the Lakers. I said that I thought, I never said that I knew.
You obviously have no idea what your talking about, SHOW ME where I said it was an absolute certainty, what you'll find is that I mention SEVERAL ways Artest could be an upgrade on Ariza in that system.




By these statements, your'e never going to admit that the Lakers got better because of Artest.

What makes you say that? If its the same flawed reasoning that went into your previous post I can assure you I know better than that.

Verbal Christ
10-13-2009, 05:27 PM
how can a championship team get better with a known headcase with the occasional 'imthebestsyndrome' while you had the ultimate 'team' player??? the rockets lowballed artest on purpose otherwise he would still be here, you guys didnt pull a coup or something, orrrr ron could just want to look at kobe's piece and chain after every game/practice since it may appear thats what led him to 'want' to be a laker. enjoy artest and his 'peculiarities' cuz around here he was called crazy pills for a reason.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2009, 07:05 PM
If the Lakers are more dominant than last year, then Artest is an upgrade if we are the same then the Artest trade didn't make a sence. If we are worse then we can blame Mitch for letting Ariza walk.

I understand what Hawkeyes and Chronz are saying and it's a legit argument. I think that Ariza was a great fit for the Lakers but I also think that Artest is a better fit not just because Artest is a better overall player but because he can completly change the mind set of a team, from a soft team to a tougher team and into a defensive team.

Hawkeys and Chronz can't deny this.

What needs to change in the mindset of a current champion? LA was already a good defensive team. Ariza was a better team defender, a better rebounder, and more than happy to slip into a role. SOmething that Artest has proven, he can't do anymore, is an average rebounder, and has never shown to be a role player, only a ball stopper and chucker who occasionally gets hot
My opinion, and most likely Chronz's, but I can't speak for him, come from the fact that Artest has historical evidence showing he is not as good a 4th option on offense, as he has never played such and will need to change his game, and that as a team defender, and even more so, an individual defender over 82 regular season games, is not as good as Ariza. On top of all that, Ariza is just entering his prime, Artest is well past his.
And I will state for the last time, I am not sure it even matters. Even with a slight slide in defensive efficiency, the Lakers have so much firepower, they should still win it if Bynum stays on the floor, and Kobe doesn't show regression.
And I agree, lets see how it plays out. I am simply retorting with facts to those who throw it at me. Nothing more.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2009, 07:09 PM
how can a championship team get better with a known headcase with the occasional 'imthebestsyndrome' while you had the ultimate 'team' player??? the rockets lowballed artest on purpose otherwise he would still be here, you guys didnt pull a coup or something, orrrr ron could just want to look at kobe's piece and chain after every game/practice since it may appear thats what led him to 'want' to be a laker. enjoy artest and his 'peculiarities' cuz around here he was called crazy pills for a reason.

In Artest's defense, the Rockets knew this was a lost season, Artest is aged, and they would be better off going younger. Ariza will not translate into as many wins as Artest in the role Artest played last year, but he will grow, and is a big part of the future in Houston. Why would they sign Artest for a few years, only to get his broken down game in 2 years?
That was a move for the future, not a direct shot at Artest.
This is an argument on who has a bigger effect on the Lakers. Ariza or Artest. ANd if LA has more wins, and Bynum plays 75 games and goes for 15/10, while Artest's defensive rating continues to drop, I don't even want to hear it was Artest

Gibby23
12-04-2009, 02:48 PM
move outside your single matchups, and look at Artest's season defensive rating, vs Ariza, then factor in the age, and what you get is this: Artest and Ariza were basically equal last year, although different defenders, Artest more of a team defender at this point, Ariza moving from a team defender into an individual defender (though some matchups are still a problem due to his stature at a young age), and you have Ariza over Artest for the upcoming season.
It really is that simple.
As far as offensive efficiency, it won't matter. Artest will be asked to sacrifice shots. He won't get more than a handful of plays a game run for him.
Ariza was too expensive to hold onto, I get that, but he was still the better option for LA. Now, LA is still the favorites in my mind, they have great depth, and are just too strong offensively. But they will be lucky to finish in the top 10 defensively this year, and that may be asking too much
SO ar so good. #1 in OPP FG%.

Chronz
12-04-2009, 03:17 PM
Yea I was wrong about Artest not helping your defense, still feel pretty good about him hurting your O, and the Ariza vs Artest bit, but I really didnt expect him to be this good out the gate defensively. Will it stand the test of time though, after this cupcake schedule we'll find out for sure.

Still if you would had wanted to wager that the Lakers would be among the top3 defensive teams in the league after this many games I wouldnt have refused. Artest vs Ariza is closer than I imagined it being.

Double_R
12-04-2009, 03:18 PM
Artest is way better than Ariza... Im out and Im a magic fan

magichatnumber9
12-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Artest is an upgrade at the small forward spot, the only people that don't feel that way are people that despise the Lakers and want the team to fail.
Wow Boston fans feel the same way. I guess we come to PSD because we are gluttons for punishment.

arkanian215
12-04-2009, 03:36 PM
well you cant really say he didnt have a good cast around him. pau aint nothing to laugh at and lamar, d fish, ariza and bynum all bring something to make the team championship caliber.

BkOriginalOne
12-04-2009, 03:58 PM
Because, Artest is a better 2 way player than Ariza.

ko8e24
12-04-2009, 04:45 PM
well you cant really say he didnt have a good cast around him. pau aint nothing to laugh at and lamar, d fish, ariza and bynum all bring something to make the team championship caliber.

:confused:

we're talkin about Ron Artest over Trevor Ariza. What post are u replying to?? lol

SundaeBest
12-04-2009, 05:46 PM
Yea I was wrong about Artest not helping your defense, still feel pretty good about him hurting your O, and the Ariza vs Artest bit, but I really didnt expect him to be this good out the gate defensively. Will it stand the test of time though, after this cupcake schedule we'll find out for sure.

Still if you would had wanted to wager that the Lakers would be among the top3 defensive teams in the league after this many games I wouldnt have refused. Artest vs Ariza is closer than I imagined it being.

How does Artest hurt our offense? We've been blowing teams away, and putting in the reserve for most of the fourth quarter. I've seen no lack in production really, with the exception of Odom, but he is just as happy being a facilitator/rebounder, so I think you're wrong on that one too.

Hey Hawkeye, what does mud in your eye feel like? Must suck to be a Laker hater right now....I don't have a problem with people suggesting he may or may not have fit in, or may or may not have been better than Ariza, but to make post after post arguing the ladder as if there was no chance in hell he could be an upgrade over Ariza, was just Stupid.

At least some people (like Chronz) can admit when they made an error in judgment, and I applaud that, after all, that is how proper conversations should be carried out.

Fact of the matter is:
- Ariza was great for us
- But as the OP suggests, Artest brings just about EVERYTHING Ariza brought (although maybe not to as high caliber in some skills), but he also brings in the ability to guard the big/strong 4s/3s which Ariza could not do.
- That gives the Lakers two elite perimeter defenders
- That takes pressure off Kobe on D
- Which leads to a more fluent and efficient offense, and stable more competitive D
- Not to mention match-up problems, at the 4/3 that we didn't really have with Ariza

It's basic math, 1 + 1 = 2
So all in all, I think the OP was right on.

nipo10847
12-04-2009, 05:56 PM
why is this here?? This belongs to lakers forum.

ko8e24
12-04-2009, 05:57 PM
why is this here?? This belongs to lakers forum.

lol, this thread's been in the nba forum for a couple of wks now.

wileyisTOFU
12-04-2009, 06:16 PM
this made me feel better about the whole thing the other night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spSd8ttwx3c

ElMarroAfamado
12-04-2009, 06:16 PM
why is this here?? This belongs to lakers forum.

its alwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays something
:facepalm:

Chronz
12-04-2009, 07:39 PM
How does Artest hurt our offense? We've been blowing teams away, and putting in the reserve for most of the fourth quarter. I've seen no lack in production really, with the exception of Odom, but he is just as happy being a facilitator/rebounder, so I think you're wrong on that one too.
Youve been blowing teams out defensively. Your offense looks worse this year than last. Artest hurts the offense by taking more shots than Ariza and not making enough of them. That tradeoff has resulted in lessened efficiency, its simple math really. Artest has essentially replaced the same amount of individual possessions on far less efficient returns (Like I predicted), what I said he could do to counteract that obvious downgrade was make others around him better with his playmaking (Ive seen several Laker fans comment on how much of a pleasant surprise its been). Though thus far his passing efficiency has been well below last season standards so while hes an upgrade on Ariza in that department, it hasnt been enough to offset Ariza's offensive superiority in this role.

Its telling to note that while both have been struggling with various aspects of their game, Ariza has atleast handled the offensive switch better. If Artest's defense wouldve been as bad as I thought it wouldve been the Lakers wouldve had atleast 2 more losses by now. Last year Durant torched him, this year it seemed he was able to be more physical with him. Just one example...



Hey Hawkeye, what does mud in your eye feel like? Must suck to be a Laker hater right now....I don't have a problem with people suggesting he may or may not have fit in, or may or may not have been better than Ariza, but to make post after post arguing the ladder as if there was no chance in hell he could be an upgrade over Ariza, was just Stupid.

To be fair, this debate isnt over. Artest could still be a defensive downgrade, the Lakers started similarly well last year, and they didnt have a year older Bynum.


At least some people (like Chronz) can admit when they made an error in judgment, and I applaud that, after all, that is how proper conversations should be carried out.

Fact of the matter is:
- Ariza was great for us
- But as the OP suggests, Artest brings just about EVERYTHING Ariza brought (although maybe not to as high caliber in some skills), but he also brings in the ability to guard the big/strong 4s/3s which Ariza could not do.
- That gives the Lakers two elite perimeter defenders
- That takes pressure off Kobe on D
- Which leads to a more fluent and efficient offense, and stable more competitive D
- Not to mention match-up problems, at the 4/3 that we didn't really have with Ariza

It's basic math, 1 + 1 = 2
So all in all, I think the OP was right on.

Except that most of those things either existed with Ariza as well, or arent really true. The Lakers arent more efficient or more stable offensively, they had 2 elite defenders before, and while Artest can guard 4/3's he cannot dog 1/2/3's the way Ariza could and did in certain matchups for the Lakers. This puts more pressure on the Lakers other defenders not that it really matters much.

Nobody ever said Artest didnt have his own set of strengths, just that the team wouldve been better off having Ariza's. You shouldve seen the arguments some Laker fans were using, and the attitude surrounding the question.

ARMIN12NBA
12-04-2009, 07:54 PM
Chronz, how has Artest been less efficient than Ariza offensively?

Artest is shooting 46% from the field and 40% from three.
Ariza shot 46% from the field and 32% from three.

BTW--Also factor in the fact that big, fast, and strong small forwards cannot guard Kobe Bryant anymore because they have to handle the load of Artest. Before, Ariza's small build allowed for shooting guards to take him on and the big and fast small forwards to switch onto Kobe. I'm not saying Kobe is bad against small forwards (he still does a fine job against them), but his job is much easier and he can expend less easier playing up against players his own size and smaller.

About defense: This season, Artest is absolutely obliterating opponents. He has been downright dominant. In fact, he is very much easily the DPOY so far in the season. This has just been from watching the games (there was one stretch I remember when Durant went 0-8 and was extremely frustrated with himself, then Artest left and Durant hit a couple threes in a row; Artest came back in and the struggle continued for Durant).

According to 82games.com, Artest has been allowing opponents to have a 9 PER while Ariza allowed a 16 PER last season. This is CLEARLY not the end all, be all, but Artest has clearly been dominant just from watching and analyzing the games as well.

theuuord
12-04-2009, 08:09 PM
Chronz, how has Artest been less efficient than Ariza offensively?

Artest is shooting 46% from the field and 40% from three.
Ariza shot 46% from the field and 32% from three.

I know my name's not Chronz, but I think it's pretty obvious: turnovers and free throws. Artest's been turning the ball over on over 17% of his logged possessions. Ariza last year was under 12%. Ariza last year shot 71% on just over two free throws per game, and Artest is shooting 54% from the line on 3 per game. As a result, Ariza last year produced 112 points per 100 possessions, as opposed to Artest this year only producing 105 with essentially the same usage rate (Artest's is higher by about half a percent).
It's actually pretty surprising, because when a player's usage rate goes down that much, you expect a similar increase in efficiency; however with Artest his efficiency has remained basically the same from last season. He might turn it around - he's never turned the ball over so frequently in his career, and his free throw percentage almost assuredly will increase - but so far offensively he's not been as good as I thought he would be.

On the other side, it's less complicated. Defensively Artest has been awesome so far, and although I think it's a bit of a stretch to call him easily the DPOY he's certainly one of the select few in the conversation. Truth be told I know it's early and there's a lot of basketball left but it's been a weird year so far for Ron Artest. He's never shot better from the field and is playing some of the most impassioned defense of his career, but he's also getting fewer rebounds, steals, and turning the ball over more than he ever has. I'm curious to see how it all ends up.

Chronz
12-04-2009, 08:18 PM
I know my name's not Chronz, but I think it's pretty obvious: turnovers and free throws. Artest's been turning the ball over on over 17% of his logged possessions. Ariza last year was under 12%. Ariza last year shot 71% on just over two free throws per game, and Artest is shooting 54% from the line on 3 per game. As a result, Ariza last year produced 112 points per 100 possessions, as opposed to Artest this year only producing 105 with essentially the same usage rate (Artest's is higher by about half a percent).
It's actually pretty surprising, because when a player's usage rate goes down that much, you expect a similar increase in efficiency; however with Artest his efficiency has remained basically the same from last season. He might turn it around - he's never turned the ball over so frequently in his career, and his free throw percentage almost assuredly will increase - but so far offensively he's not been as good as I thought he would be.

On the other side, it's less complicated. Defensively Artest has been awesome so far, and although I think it's a bit of a stretch to call him easily the DPOY he's certainly one of the select few in the conversation. Truth be told I know it's early and there's a lot of basketball left but it's been a weird year so far for Ron Artest. He's never shot better from the field and is playing some of the most impassioned defense of his career, but he's also getting fewer rebounds, steals, and turning the ball over more than he ever has. I'm curious to see how it all ends up.

Thank you for answering, but its not that shocking, the reason I didnt expect that traditional upswing in efficiency from him is because his skill curves have never displayed these characteristics. The load basically doesnt matter to the guy, hes never been an instinctive player who can adapt to systems. He will play his way regardless of the touches. Sure you can minimize the effect by giving him less possessions, but the point of having a guy like Ariza is that he was playing the "role player" role much more effectively.

ARMIN12NBA
12-04-2009, 08:18 PM
I know my name's not Chronz, but I think it's pretty obvious: turnovers and free throws. Artest's been turning the ball over on over 17% of his logged possessions. Ariza last year was under 12%. Ariza last year shot 71% on just over two free throws per game, and Artest is shooting 54% from the line on 3 per game. As a result, Ariza last year produced 112 points per 100 possessions, as opposed to Artest this year only producing 105 with essentially the same usage rate (Artest's is higher by about half a percent).
It's actually pretty surprising, because when a player's usage rate goes down that much, you expect a similar increase in efficiency; however with Artest his efficiency has remained basically the same from last season. He might turn it around - he's never turned the ball over so frequently in his career, and his free throw percentage almost assuredly will increase - but so far offensively he's not been as good as I thought he would be.

On the other side, it's less complicated. Defensively Artest has been awesome so far, and although I think it's a bit of a stretch to call him easily the DPOY he's certainly one of the select few in the conversation. Truth be told I know it's early and there's a lot of basketball left but it's been a weird year so far for Ron Artest. He's never shot better from the field and is playing some of the most impassioned defense of his career, but he's also getting fewer rebounds, steals, and turning the ball over more than he ever has. I'm curious to see how it all ends up.

His FT shooting has certainly been disappointing (and odd), but when I speak about Artest's efficiency, I am speaking about how he plays within the offense during the game and how he works with his teammates in getting up shots.

FT shooting is more of an individual part of the game, rather than something that affects the team offense (as this thread is about, Artest v. Ariza on the Lakers and how it will affect the Lakers offense/defense).

So far on offense (the team aspect), he has been shooting damn great at 46% and 40%.

His turnover rate has been high, but that is something I think he will correct.

In terms of rebounding, I think the opportunities aren't there as much because of the Bynum, Gasol, and Odom factor. His RPG is at 4.8 (slightly below career- 5), but it was previously at around 5-5.5 before Gasol came back.

Chronz
12-04-2009, 08:22 PM
Chronz, how has Artest been less efficient than Ariza offensively?

Artest is shooting 46% from the field and 40% from three.
Ariza shot 46% from the field and 32% from three.

BTW--Also factor in the fact that big, fast, and strong small forwards cannot guard Kobe Bryant anymore because they have to handle the load of Artest. Before, Ariza's small build allowed for shooting guards to take him on and the big and fast small forwards to switch onto Kobe. I'm not saying Kobe is bad against small forwards (he still does a fine job against them), but his job is much easier and he can expend less easier playing up against players his own size and smaller.

About defense: This season, Artest is absolutely obliterating opponents. He has been downright dominant. In fact, he is very much easily the DPOY so far in the season. This has just been from watching the games (there was one stretch I remember when Durant went 0-8 and was extremely frustrated with himself, then Artest left and Durant hit a couple threes in a row; Artest came back in and the struggle continued for Durant).

According to 82games.com, Artest has been allowing opponents to have a 9 PER while Ariza allowed a 16 PER last season. This is CLEARLY not the end all, be all, but Artest has clearly been dominant just from watching and analyzing the games as well.
Hes helped them out defensively no question about that, its why I had to make that thread in the Laker forum, and the thread about the Lakers D in general. DPOY is definitely not out of reach the way hes played.