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View Full Version : Buchholz vs. Chamberlain



redsox0717
10-01-2009, 05:41 PM
Who would you rather have on your team

todu82
10-01-2009, 05:54 PM
Clay

Kenny Krew
10-01-2009, 09:27 PM
Joba. Younger and in his first year of starting. Was what? 9-4 before the Yanks started messing around with his schedule?

atl_braves_fan
10-02-2009, 04:57 PM
Buchholz, but I think both are fairly overrated.

Rylinkus
10-02-2009, 07:20 PM
As a criminal?
Clay... he steals laptops. Joba just drives drunk....

Zmaster52
10-02-2009, 07:31 PM
Buchholz, chamberlain is a cry baby and he also sucks and wont be any good as a starter

Sportfan
10-02-2009, 07:34 PM
Buchholz easy

Hustla23
10-02-2009, 08:11 PM
Joba.

Buccholz has the worst stuff of a "potential front line starter" I've ever seen.

MalkinIsMagic
10-02-2009, 08:19 PM
As a criminal?
Clay... he steals laptops. Joba just drives drunk....
Remember, Kids: You can drive drunk and potentially kill someone, but stealing laptops will NOT be tolerated.


Joba.

Buccholz has the worst stuff of a "potential front line starter" I've ever seen.

That's actually a rather embarrassing assessment... Clay possibly has some of the best stuff in all of baseball...

Hustla23
10-02-2009, 09:09 PM
Remember, Kids: You can drive drunk and potentially kill someone, but stealing laptops will NOT be tolerated.



That's actually a rather embarrassing assessment... Clay possibly has some of the best stuff in all of baseball...
LMAO.

Joba ranks slightly better in the tRA department AND has better wFB (fastball) rating as well as a better wSL (sliderl) rating.

Bucholz has a better curveball and changeup but they're just merely average.

Joba definitely has better stuff.

They both suck right now but Joba has been better.

To say that Bucholz has some of the best stuff in baseball is as insane as you can get.

Kenny Krew
10-02-2009, 09:30 PM
That's actually a rather embarrassing assessment... Clay possibly has some of the best stuff in all of baseball...

Have you ever looked up the stats? Just because he has a huge breaking ball doesn't mean he has good stuff.

Kenny Krew
10-02-2009, 09:33 PM
Buchholz, chamberlain is a cry baby and he also sucks and wont be any good as a starter

:facepalm::clap:

MalkinIsMagic
10-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Have you ever looked up the stats? Just because he has a huge breaking ball doesn't mean he has good stuff.

Stats don't tell you how good his stuff is... I'm not exactly sure how anyone can even try to refute that Buchholz has great stuff.

Kenny Krew
10-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Stats don't tell you how good his stuff is... I'm not exactly sure how anyone can even try to refute that Buchholz has great stuff.

OK, I will take your word of watching the games over Fangraphs.

K/9 - 6.3

Joba's K/9 - 7.6

Nice try.

bosox3431
10-02-2009, 10:38 PM
OK, I will take your word of watching the games over Fangraphs.

K/9 - 6.3

Joba's K/9 - 7.6

Nice try.

So you just look at one stat and thats the end of it? Did you bother to look at the pitch data on fangraphs? I did, lets see what we have.

Fasball-
Velocity: Buchholz- 93.5 Joba-92.5
Horz movement: Buchholz- -7.2 Joba- -4.2
Vert Movement: Buchholz- 8.3 Joba- 9.9

Buchholz has had slightly more speed, quite a bit more on the horz movement and Joba barely has him on vert movement. Not sure how Joba's FB has been better this year. Winner- Buchholz

Slider-
Velocity: Buchholz- 93.5 Joba 92.5
HM: Buchholz- 2.2 Joba- 2.1
VM: Buchholz- 1.4 Joba- 0.1

Not much of a difference in the sliders IMO. Maybe a slight edge to Buchholz, but we'll call it a wash.

CH-
Velocity: Buchholz- 80 Joba- 82.3
HM: Buchholz- 2.6 Joba- -8.8
VM: Buchholz- 6.3 Joba- 5.1

Joba wins this one, the HM kills Buchholz, but its almost 14 MPH off his FB, and his VM isnt to bad.

Curve-
Velocity: Buchholz- 77.9 Joba- 79.3 Lince- 77.2 Doc- 78.5
HM: Buchholz- 4.7 Joba-4.2 Lince-4.0 Doc- 6.3
VM: Buchholz- -9.2 Joba- -5.0 Lince- -6.7 Doc- -0.9

Buchholz wins this one. Just to compare his curve to some of the ones people are think the best in baseball, I also put Halladays and Lince curve data up there

bosox3431
10-02-2009, 10:52 PM
LMAO.

Joba ranks slightly better in the tRA department AND has better wFB (fastball) rating as well as a better wSL (sliderl) rating.

Bucholz has a better curveball and changeup but they're just merely average.

Joba definitely has better stuff.

They both suck right now but Joba has been better.

To say that Bucholz has some of the best stuff in baseball is as insane as you can get.

Where did you get your tRA stat? Fangraphs has Buchholz tRA at 5.48 and Joba at 5.73. Buchholz also has a slightly better FIP at 4.66 to Joba's 4.84.

And also in 67 less inn pitched Buchholz has almost managed and equal WAR. (1.2 to 1.6)

Kenny Krew
10-02-2009, 10:53 PM
So you just look at one stat and thats the end of it? Did you bother to look at the pitch data on fangraphs? I did, lets see what we have.

Fasball-
Velocity: Buchholz- 93.5 Joba-92.5
Horz movement: Buchholz- -7.2 Joba- -4.2
Vert Movement: Buchholz- 8.3 Joba- 9.9

Buchholz has had slightly more speed, quite a bit more on the horz movement and Joba barely has him on vert movement. Not sure how Joba's FB has been better this year. Winner- Buchholz

Slider-
Velocity: Buchholz- 93.5 Joba 92.5
HM: Buchholz- 2.2 Joba- 2.1
VM: Buchholz- 1.4 Joba- 0.1

Not much of a difference in the sliders IMO. Maybe a slight edge to Buchholz, but we'll call it a wash.

CH-
Velocity: Buchholz- 80 Joba- 82.3
HM: Buchholz- 2.6 Joba- -8.8
VM: Buchholz- 6.3 Joba- 5.1

Joba wins this one, the HM kills Buchholz, but its almost 14 MPH off his FB, and his VM isnt to bad.

Curve-
Velocity: Buchholz- 77.9 Joba- 79.3 Lince- 77.2 Doc- 78.5
HM: Buchholz- 4.7 Joba-4.2 Lince-4.0 Doc- 6.3
VM: Buchholz- -9.2 Joba- -5.0 Lince- -6.7 Doc- -0.9

Buchholz wins this one. Just to compare his curve to some of the ones people are think the best in baseball, I also put Halladays and Lince curve data up there

Those stats are not telling at all. How about the value stats that the person above posted for you? As in, how EFFECTIVE their pitches actually are. Not how much they move.

wFB: Clay = 0.6, Joba = -21.0
wSL: Clay = 3.3, Joba = 7.5
wCH: Clay = -2.4, Joba = -3.1
wCB: Clay = 2.6, Joba = 0.6

Clay's pitches have been better this season. This does not mean he has better stuff. Joba is in his first year of starting, and has a messed up routine, and thrown more innings than he ever has in his life.

Hustla23
10-02-2009, 11:45 PM
Where did you get your tRA stat? Fangraphs has Buchholz tRA at 5.48 and Joba at 5.73. Buchholz also has a slightly better FIP at 4.66 to Joba's 4.84.

And also in 67 less inn pitched Buchholz has almost managed and equal WAR. (1.2 to 1.6)
From Fangraphs...

I used career major league tRA

Not just this season.

Kenny Krew
10-02-2009, 11:59 PM
From Fangraphs...

I used career major league tRA

Not just this season.

Joba has been a starter for less than 1 season. He's 24. Looking at this year's results, and even results from his bullpen stint, are pretty pointless.

Hustla23
10-03-2009, 12:16 AM
Joba has been a starter for less than 1 season. He's 24. Looking at this year's results, and even results from his bullpen stint, are pretty pointless.
There's nothing else to look at then :confused:

bosox3431
10-03-2009, 03:31 AM
Those stats are not telling at all. How about the value stats that the person above posted for you? As in, how EFFECTIVE their pitches actually are. Not how much they move.

wFB: Clay = 0.6, Joba = -21.0
wSL: Clay = 3.3, Joba = 7.5
wCH: Clay = -2.4, Joba = -3.1
wCB: Clay = 2.6, Joba = 0.6

Clay's pitches have been better this season. This does not mean he has better stuff. Joba is in his first year of starting, and has a messed up routine, and thrown more innings than he ever has in his life.

Oh, I get it. Only stats that say Joba is better count for anyting. Makes sense

Sportfan
10-03-2009, 07:27 AM
LMAO.

Joba ranks slightly better in the tRA department AND has better wFB (fastball) rating as well as a better wSL (sliderl) rating.

Bucholz has a better curveball and changeup but they're just merely average.

Joba definitely has better stuff.

They both suck right now but Joba has been better.

To say that Bucholz has some of the best stuff in baseball is as insane as you can get.

buchholz tRA is bad because of his bad start at the beginning of the year, since August tEA has to be in the 3

Sportfan
10-03-2009, 07:30 AM
Joba.

Buccholz has the worst stuff of a "potential front line starter" I've ever seen.

That is one of the most horrendously stupid comments I have ever seen

Hustla23
10-03-2009, 01:19 PM
That is one of the most horrendously stupid comments I have ever seen
LOL Sox homer

NCBoSoxfan21
10-03-2009, 11:18 PM
LOL Sox homer

LOL NY homer

Zmaster52
10-04-2009, 11:42 AM
Bucholz is better than joba, joba cant go more than 4 innings while bucholz can go at least 6. Joba sucks

Lil Rhody
10-04-2009, 11:46 AM
not being biased but i would take Clay. He has been pitching better since he got into the rotation except the last start. plus Joba looks like a Douche and i hope if the Yanks do make it to the world series the NL team hits him the head for every AL player that dink has hit......... espacially YOUKKKK

Lil Rhody
10-04-2009, 11:49 AM
Those stats are not telling at all. How about the value stats that the person above posted for you? As in, how EFFECTIVE their pitches actually are. Not how much they move.

wFB: Clay = 0.6, Joba = -21.0
wSL: Clay = 3.3, Joba = 7.5
wCH: Clay = -2.4, Joba = -3.1
wCB: Clay = 2.6, Joba = 0.6

Clay's pitches have been better this season. This does not mean he has better stuff. Joba is in his first year of starting, and has a messed up routine, and thrown more innings than he ever has in his life.

wait a second isnt this technically Clay's first full season pitching in the BIGS

Zmaster52
10-04-2009, 11:53 AM
wait a second isnt this technically Clay's first full season pitching in the BIGS

No, he has 89 innings, but last year was his official rookie season when he pitched 76

Sportfan
10-04-2009, 06:20 PM
LOL Sox homer
thats the best you got? at least defend your comment

Kenny Krew
10-04-2009, 07:09 PM
Oh, I get it. Only stats that say Joba is better count for anyting. Makes sense

OK Nostradamus. Thanks for predicting a 24-year-old's future before his first year starting in the bigs is even over.

Hustla23
10-04-2009, 07:27 PM
thats the best you got? at least defend your comment
Look at the first page maybe ?

I didn't mean to be rude bee tee dubs :(

DieHardColtsfan
10-05-2009, 02:25 PM
Joba... Clay can really give up the long ball!

Gunzito22
10-06-2009, 09:10 AM
Remember, Kids: You can drive drunk and potentially kill someone, but stealing laptops will NOT be tolerated.

OK but remember, drunk driving in the middle of nowhere, where there is NO ONE AROUND, so will he reeeeeeally kill someone? its like if a tree falls in a forest in the middle of Nebraska....

[remember kids, don't drive drunk... steal laptops instead. "Gunzito for Alderman-2012"]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK as starters, the really are a wash at this point in their careers...

as a post-season pitcher out of the pen, its got to be Joba right? You figure neither of these guys are starting any games in October.

skierdude44
10-06-2009, 09:30 AM
Using this season's stats to evaluate Joba is really not accurate. In his first three starts since the allstar break Joba was pitching like the best pitcher in baseball. Then all of the sudden the Yankees started messing around with his rest, making him go on 7 or 8 days rest. After that they started with the ridiculous pitch counts. Honestly, it's not very easy to be consistent with that kind of routine, or really lack there of.

The sample size is an issue here as well. Clay's pitched 96 innings this year. That doesn't tell us very much. Joba's sample is a bit bigger at 157, but still a "normal" starting pitcher would have another 50 innings (give or take) to round on his season. The career stats are more telling. Joba is 15-9 3.61 era 9.1 K/9 3.9 BB/9 3.79 FIP and 4.28 tRA. Buchholz is 12-14 4.91 era 7.6 K/9 4.1 BB/9 4.51 FIP and 5.43 tRA. In this instance, Joba is better in every single category.

So I'll take Chamberlain.

Rylinkus
10-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Piss poor comparison IMO as Joba really hasn't had the development time that Clay has even though they're similar age. Remember, Joba only has 88 innings pitched in the minors. At this point he's only thrown 369 professional innings of baseball. Clay had more than that in the minors alone (443). So to compare MLB #s at this point seems a bit ridiculous. Clay was allowed to develop in the minors like a normal pitcher. Joba was brought up, jerked around, rules were made, broken, modified, etc. I don't even have the words for how the Yankees have handled this kid.

nyyfan4life
10-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Phil Hughes is/will be better than both.

Raidaz4Life
10-06-2009, 01:26 PM
Clay, he threw a no-hitter and has a ridiculously hott girlfriend

Tribe
10-21-2009, 04:39 PM
Clay

Joba is a slob and is fading fast

Kenny Krew
10-21-2009, 08:46 PM
Clay

Joba is a slob and is fading fast

:facepalm: