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View Full Version : What if AI joined the Nuggets Again?



JNA17
09-27-2009, 10:06 PM
PG: Billups
SG: Iverson
SF: Melo
PF: Martin
C: Nene
6th man: J.R. Smith

Most people say that Iverson actually ruins the chemistry and makes most teams worse. But what if he joined the nuggets again but this time he plays SG with Billups as the PG? Would that team be better or worse? Because even though the nuggets did not make it as far as the first round with iverson, but they still have over 50 wins. But with Billups and iverson this time...are they better?

bahama0811
09-27-2009, 10:07 PM
No thanks, we want a good team in Denver. I don't want to watch one player running around with the ball all night.

JNA17
09-27-2009, 10:10 PM
No thanks, we want a good team in Denver. I don't want to watch one player running around with the ball all night.

but he was the point guard most of the time right? And he really had no one to give too beside melo, now with billups as point, iverson can be more of a spot up shooter or at least hold the ball much less then he did when it was just him and melo.

bahama0811
09-27-2009, 10:13 PM
but he was the point guard most of the time right? And he really had no one to give too beside melo, now with billups as point, iverson can be more of a spot up shooter or at least hold the ball much less then he did when it was just him and melo.

It may be different now but AI just isn't a good fit for Denver. They are trying to become more of a defensive team and AI really doesn't play any D. He takes a lot of chances at steals and that doesn't fit with George Karl's style. On the offensive end he's just too much of a ball stopper. He'll never be a spot-up shooter. That's not who he is. I've always been an AI fan but it didn't work in Denver.

DenButsu
09-27-2009, 10:16 PM
What bahama said.

JordansBulls
09-27-2009, 10:26 PM
PG: Billups
SG: Iverson
SF: Melo
PF: Martin
C: Nene
6th man: J.R. Smith

Most people say that Iverson actually ruins the chemistry and makes most teams worse. But what if he joined the nuggets again but this time he plays SG with Billups as the PG? Would that team be better or worse? Because even though the nuggets did not make it as far as the first round with iverson, but they still have over 50 wins. But with Billups and iverson this time...are they better?

I thought about it as well and I would have done it if I were Denver.

NBAfan4life
09-27-2009, 10:57 PM
With AI at the 2 they would be giving up to much on D. Iverson cant guard 2's. It is good they did not bring him back

iggypop123
09-27-2009, 11:13 PM
according to kenyon martin they are already champ worthy even though they lost people

Raps08-09 Champ
09-27-2009, 11:17 PM
Then he'd be a Nugget.

It's that simple.

Chronz
09-27-2009, 11:29 PM
You want to make AI a spot up shooter?

knickfan4life
09-27-2009, 11:37 PM
but he was the point guard most of the time right? And he really had no one to give too beside melo, now with billups as point, iverson can be more of a spot up shooter or at least hold the ball much less then he did when it was just him and melo.

:facepalm: spot up shooter? AI?... :facepalm:

ZebraCity916
09-27-2009, 11:47 PM
He would just cause problems.

DenButsu
09-27-2009, 11:52 PM
I like AI, I appreciate his career, but at this point I'd honestly rather have Arron Afflalo as J.R.'s backup (even though it's probable that J.R. will continue coming off the bench as a Manu-esque fake 6th man). Nene can score. Melo can score. J.R. can score. Chauncey can score. Lawson will probably get some of his, and Malik Allen (if he sees the court at all) can't do much else except score. Denver has enough firepower, and enough stars. The perfect backup for J.R. is a defensive role player who can spread the floor with his ability to hit the corner 3. So Afflalo, welcome to Denver.

DenButsu
09-27-2009, 11:54 PM
Just to clarify^... I'm not comparing J.R. or his game to Manu and/or his game. I'm just saying the role he played for the team coming off the bench but being the team's 3rd leading scorer is similar in terms of rotational approach.

ko8e24
09-28-2009, 12:13 AM
WCF, AI would understand that Billups runs the show, and that it would be his and Melo's jobs to get in the right positions and right timings to simply put the ball in the whole.

DenButsu
09-28-2009, 01:06 AM
WCF, AI would understand that Billups runs the show

Yeah, since he did a really good job of demonstrating that he possesses that kind of understanding during his time with the Pistons.

Raph12
09-28-2009, 01:17 AM
Yeah, since he did a really good job of demonstrating that he possesses that kind of understanding during his time with the Pistons.

The Piston's leader was Billups, not Prince, Sheed, Hamilton and definitely not Stuckey. When AI was sent there, he felt like he was supposed to come in and replace Billups, not stand idly by and watch the team get whooped night in, night out. Piston's didn't want AI, they wanted 21 million dollars worth of cap-relief, if you couldn't see that then god help you.

Btw I do agree with what you were saying though, AI would not be a good fit for the Nuggets, he isn't a true shooting guard and would be ineffective in a catch-and-shoot system. He needs the ball and in Denver they don't need players who need the ball, even JR Smith is a bad fit for Denver, they would be much better off with a guy like Ray Allen.

DenButsu
09-28-2009, 01:31 AM
The Piston's leader was Billups, not Prince, Sheed, Hamilton and definitely not Stuckey. When AI was sent there, he felt like he was supposed to come in and replace Billups, not stand idly by and watch the team get whooped night in, night out. Piston's didn't want AI, they wanted 21 million dollars worth of cap-relief, if you couldn't see that then god help you.

Btw I do agree with what you were saying though, AI would not be a good fit for the Nuggets, he isn't a true shooting guard and would be ineffective in a catch-and-shoot system. He needs the ball and in Denver they don't need players who need the ball, even JR Smith is a bad fit for Denver, they would be much better off with a guy like Ray Allen.

Couldn't disagree more about J.R. being a bad fit. (But even if he was, it's not like guys like Ray Allen are easy to come by in the NBA).

And yeah, I know AI wanted to do more for the Pistons. But when asked to play a particular role (as ko8e24 suggested above the Nuggets would if he went there) he did not take it well initially, and he did not handle it well from there on out.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-28-2009, 02:53 AM
What if this thread was never created???

DenButsu
09-28-2009, 02:54 AM
What if this thread was never created???

Then you'd have one less off-topic post.

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. It's that simple.

ZebraCity916
09-28-2009, 03:59 AM
The Piston's leader was Billups, not Prince, Sheed, Hamilton and definitely not Stuckey. When AI was sent there, he felt like he was supposed to come in and replace Billups, not stand idly by and watch the team get whooped night in, night out. Piston's didn't want AI, they wanted 21 million dollars worth of cap-relief, if you couldn't see that then god help you.

Btw I do agree with what you were saying though, AI would not be a good fit for the Nuggets, he isn't a true shooting guard and would be ineffective in a catch-and-shoot system. He needs the ball and in Denver they don't need players who need the ball, even JR Smith is a bad fit for Denver, they would be much better off with a guy like Ray Allen.

How is he a bad fit????

He's awesome comin' off the bench and helps out a lot.

Chronz
09-28-2009, 11:24 AM
Yea JR Smith is a perfect fit with that group of guys

Raph12
09-28-2009, 11:49 AM
How is he a bad fit????

He's awesome comin' off the bench and helps out a lot.


Couldn't disagree more about J.R. being a bad fit. (But even if he was, it's not like guys like Ray Allen are easy to come by in the NBA).

And yeah, I know AI wanted to do more for the Pistons. But when asked to play a particular role (as ko8e24 suggested above the Nuggets would if he went there) he did not take it well initially, and he did not handle it well from there on out.

If they had a more pure shooting guard they would be better off, I guess I should choose some of my words more carefully around Nuggets fans, he is not the "best" fit.

You can't ask someone who has been considered an elite player for their whole career to sit back and watch a young kid play a bigger role than him, it's absurd. No way Stuckey should get priority over AI, even at this day and age, but if someone explained the role before hand, it would not have been as big of an issue. When AI was dropping 26+ppg and leading Denver to a 50-win season, had someone told him you'll play bench next season he would laugh at them, but if Mitch Kupchak sits AI down and says you will play 30mins off the bench for us to win the championship this offseason, I don't think AI would hesitate.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-28-2009, 12:04 PM
I love the idea personally.

DenButsu
09-28-2009, 12:11 PM
If they had a more pure shooting guard they would be better off, I guess I should choose some of my words more carefully around Nuggets fans, he is not the "best" fit.

Among the league's shooting guards, he was 4th in adjusted fg%, 10th in TS% and 3rd in 3-pointers made (in just 27 minutes). What kind of "pure shooting guard" qualifications are you looking for? :shrug:

JLynn943
09-28-2009, 12:36 PM
Yeah, since he did a really good job of demonstrating that he possesses that kind of understanding during his time with the Pistons.

What do you people want? When Iverson was traded to Detroit for Billups, Detroit lost their leader. As Raph said, Rip, Prince and Stuckey were not going to replace him, so Iverson was (rather unfairly) expected by the public to take over as the new leader. However, as made clear by coaching and managerial decisions, he wasn't even given that opportunity. He was simply there to sell tickets as Stuckey floundered as a point guard.

People need to realize that Iverson, despite his experience as a leader, was not there to replace Billups. He clearly felt that he was supposed to (given the rest of the team) but Detroit was never going to be his team. When the public's expectations do not match the team's goals, this is what happens. Now Iverson has a bad rap that he cannot be a leader, despite him being an effective leader every year prior.

Raph12
09-29-2009, 01:07 AM
Among the league's shooting guards, he was 4th in adjusted fg%, 10th in TS% and 3rd in 3-pointers made (in just 27 minutes). What kind of "pure shooting guard" qualifications are you looking for? :shrug:

More of a catch-and-shoot player, not one who likes to dominate the ball, they have enough ball handlers already.

RocketsRule
09-29-2009, 01:09 AM
Personally I don't think Carmelo, Billups, Smith, and Iverson would mesh together well. All need the ball to be effective, especially Iverson and Billups, so I really don't see how that would play out nicely.

DenButsu
09-29-2009, 01:27 AM
More of a catch-and-shoot player, not one who likes to dominate the ball, they have enough ball handlers already.

If you think J.R. Smith likes to dominate the ball, then you don't know J.R. Smith very well. He does handle the ball some - and that is at Karl's request, due to his ability to penetrate and make good things happen near the basket. But just as often - more often, in fact - he is not the primary ball handler, and he does plenty of catch and shoot from beyond the arc. Especially when he's on the court with Billups, he most definitely defers the ball handling to him.

Raph12
09-29-2009, 01:45 AM
If you think J.R. Smith likes to dominate the ball, then you don't know J.R. Smith very well. He does handle the ball some - and that is at Karl's request, due to his ability to penetrate and make good things happen near the basket. But just as often - more often, in fact - he is not the primary ball handler, and he does plenty of catch and shoot from beyond the arc. Especially when he's on the court with Billups, he most definitely defers the ball handling to him.

Well you're the Nuggets expert, but from quite a few of the games I watched, it looked like Smith would often hold onto the ball when he got it, dribble around and end up just; chucking a 3, driving and dishing, or driving and forcing a bad shot, with the shotclock winding down. I've watched many games where George Karl just looks at Smith dirty after one of those plays. Maybe I need to watch some more Nuggets games before making that leap, but I do think the Nuggets would be better off with a guy like Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton.

DenButsu
09-29-2009, 02:16 AM
Well you're the Nuggets expert, but from quite a few of the games I watched, it looked like Smith would often hold onto the ball when he got it, dribble around and end up just; chucking a 3, driving and dishing, or driving and forcing a bad shot, with the shotclock winding down. I've watched many games where George Karl just looks at Smith dirty after one of those plays. Maybe I need to watch some more Nuggets games before making that leap, but I do think the Nuggets would be better off with a guy like Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton.

Okay, two things. One is, you're at least partially right, J.R. has definitely got a history of making some piss poor shooting decisions. If you've noticed that, you're not imagining it - it's true. On the other hand... (and this is the second point which I actually just wrote up to post before seeing your reply):


--------------
While we're on the subject of J.R.'s ball handling and whether having him do a share of it is a good thing or not, the big improvements he made in that area should be noted.



Per 36 Per 36
MPG AST TOV AST/TO AST% TOV% USG%
2007-08 19.2 3.2 2.8 1.1 14.7 13.0 25.8
2008-09 27.7 3.6 2.4 1.5 17.3 12.3 24.2
diff +8.5 +0.4 -0.4 +0.4 +2.6 -0.7 -1.6


As you can see, both his assists per 36 and ast% increased, while his turnovers per 36 and tov% increased, resulting in a better ast/to ratio. This was a result of better ball handling.

But the Billups factor (Karl needed J.R. to handle the ball more when AC was the starting PG) and J.R.'s better decision making come into play as well, because if you consider the fact that he averaged 8.5 minutes more per game yet still managed to drop his usage rate, he was definitely not forcing bad plays nearly as much as he used to, and definitely deferring much more to Billups (and, to a lesser extent, AC).


Or in other words, while at times J.R. does catch and shoot (as you would prefer), he has also gotten much better at not wasting possessions or turning the ball over when he does handle it. For the Nuggets, being able to trust J.R. with the ball adds another completely new dimension to their offense that wasn't there when he pretty much did strictly catch and shoot two seasons ago and prior to that.

More to the point of answering your point, though, the juxtaposition of his usage rate to his minutes per game pretty much dispels your claim that he dominates the ball. All that other stuff is just to say not only does he not dominate it, but he's gotten pretty damn good at using it well when he does handle it.

Raph12
09-29-2009, 02:39 AM
Okay, two things. One is, you're at least partially right, J.R. has definitely got a history of making some piss poor shooting decisions. If you've noticed that, you're not imagining it - it's true. On the other hand... (and this is the second point which I actually just wrote up to post before seeing your reply):


--------------
While we're on the subject of J.R.'s ball handling and whether having him do a share of it is a good thing or not, the big improvements he made in that area should be noted.



Per 36 Per 36
MPG AST TOV AST/TO AST% TOV% USG%
2007-08 19.2 3.2 2.8 1.1 14.7 13.0 25.8
2008-09 27.7 3.6 2.4 1.5 17.3 12.3 24.2
diff +8.5 +0.4 -0.4 +0.4 +2.6 -0.7 -1.6


As you can see, both his assists per 36 and ast% increased, while his turnovers per 36 and tov% increased, resulting in a better ast/to ratio. This was a result of better ball handling.

But the Billups factor (Karl needed J.R. to handle the ball more when AC was the starting PG) and J.R.'s better decision making come into play as well, because if you consider the fact that he averaged 8.5 minutes more per game yet still managed to drop his usage rate, he was definitely not forcing bad plays nearly as much as he used to, and definitely deferring much more to Billups (and, to a lesser extent, AC).


Or in other words, while at times J.R. does catch and shoot (as you would prefer), he has also gotten much better at not wasting possessions or turning the ball over when he does handle it. For the Nuggets, being able to trust J.R. with the ball adds another completely new dimension to their offense that wasn't there when he pretty much did strictly catch and shoot two seasons ago and prior to that.

More to the point of answering your point, though, the juxtaposition of his usage rate to his minutes per game pretty much dispels your claim that he dominates the ball. All that other stuff is just to say not only does he not dominate it, but he's gotten pretty damn good at using it well when he does handle it.

Still not a pure catch-and-shoot player, I think the Nuggets would prosper if they had Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton or even Shane Battier over JR Smith, if you disagree that's your call.

Btw compare the stats Smith posted to Allen's or Hamilton's, tell me what you see. I'm out for the night argue with you tomorrow. Peace.

DenButsu
09-29-2009, 03:02 AM
Still not a pure catch-and-shoot player, I think the Nuggets would prosper if they had Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton or even Shane Battier over JR Smith, if you disagree that's your call.

Btw compare the stats Smith posted to Allen's or Hamilton's, tell me what you see. I'm out for the night argue with you tomorrow. Peace.

Good night. :cheers:

Let me just boil down my take as simply as possible:

As long as his shot selection and handles are improving (they are), and he continues mostly deferring to the PGs for primary ball handling responsibilities (he is), I just can't see any way in which having "a pure catch and shoot player" would be better than having "a player who can both catch and shoot, and also do some dribble penetrations for layups/dunks/kickouts, and some secondary ball handling responsibilities". Why would you prefer a player with fewer offensive dimensions? I don't get it.

Why would you prefer Ray Allen over J.R. Smith? I get that, okay. But come on. There's nobody in the league we could trade J.R. for of that caliber. And especially nobody so young and with so promising a future.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I think he's a perfect fit, to tell you the truth.

Raph12
09-29-2009, 11:46 AM
Good night. :cheers:

Let me just boil down my take as simply as possible:

As long as his shot selection and handles are improving (they are), and he continues mostly deferring to the PGs for primary ball handling responsibilities (he is), I just can't see any way in which having "a pure catch and shoot player" would be better than having "a player who can both catch and shoot, and also do some dribble penetrations for layups/dunks/kickouts, and some secondary ball handling responsibilities". Why would you prefer a player with fewer offensive dimensions? I don't get it.

Why would you prefer Ray Allen over J.R. Smith? I get that, okay. But come on. There's nobody in the league we could trade J.R. for of that caliber. And especially nobody so young and with so promising a future.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I think he's a perfect fit, to tell you the truth.

I feel that Melo and Billups are enough, a third ball handler is not required. Billups is more than capable of running things on his own, Melo's point-forward play is just gravy. Why add another handler?

I think we should just agree to disagree for the time being, I'll watch a few more Nuggets games and then reassess JR Smith's game again.

DenButsu
09-29-2009, 01:30 PM
Every season I predict it's J.R.'s bust out season. Every time I'm half right, half wrong. But if the kid gets his head screwed on straight, he's got All-Star talent, that's for damn sure.

The two biggest fears of Nuggets fans right now are that either K-Mart or Nene will get injured again, or that J.R. will squander his potential.

Raph12
09-29-2009, 01:32 PM
Every season I predict it's J.R.'s bust out season. Every time I'm half right, half wrong. But if the kid gets his head screwed on straight, he's got All-Star talent, that's for damn sure.

The two biggest fears of Nuggets fans right now are that either K-Mart or Nene will get injured again, or that J.R. will squander his potential.

I think all three of those are pretty safe bets, but even with Nene or Martin out, you still got Birdman.