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View Full Version : Why do some players sometimes refer Toronto as a small market?



phoenix_bladen
09-23-2009, 01:27 AM
I believe it is 4th largest city in all of North America and 3rd largest financial and media hub in North America (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Is it just mistaken that way because it is Canada's only team?

Also why do players not like playing for Toronto and complain it is cold when New York has similar temperatures as Toronto but yet it is regarded as the most attractive place to play for players?

theuuord
09-23-2009, 01:33 AM
I believe it is 4th largest city in all of North America and 3rd largest financial and media hub in North America (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Is it just mistaken that way because it is Canada's only team?

Also why do players not like playing for Toronto and complain it is cold when New York has similar temperatures as Toronto but yet it is regarded as the most attractive place to play for players?

Toronto is way colder than New York, coming from someone who has lived in one place and has family in the other.

I'm not sure about the finances but in a very pro-US association the stigma may be automatically against any team that's not in it.

abe_froman
09-23-2009, 01:43 AM
I believe it is 4th largest city in all of North America and 3rd largest financial and media hub in North America (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Is it just mistaken that way because it is Canada's only team?

Also why do players not like playing for Toronto and complain it is cold when New York has similar temperatures as Toronto but yet it is regarded as the most attractive place to play for players?

not all money is equal,same is not all market power.

the first is pretty self explanatory.but the 2nd you play for tor(maybe cuz its another country)you are somewhat of an after thought to the main fan/market base(the us).rightly or wrongly, that is the case.so while large it doesnt project that largeness

you say new york,which is larger.but is also one of the main cultural and media capitols of the world.if your popular there,the power and exposure you get of it projects nationwide,continental and even worldwide

phoenix_bladen
09-23-2009, 01:54 AM
not all money is equal,same is not all market power.

the first is pretty self explanatory.but the 2nd you play for tor(maybe cuz its another country)you are somewhat of an after thought to the main fan/market base(the us).rightly or wrongly, that is the case.so while large it doesnt project that largeness

you say new york,which is larger.but is also one of the main cultural and media capitols of the world.if your popular there,the power and exposure you get of it projects nationwide,continental and even worldwide

Obviously I don't mean Toronto is as big as ny because it isn't but it's one of the largest and one of the larger ones in the NBA.

I aslo disagree with Toronto being an after thought though Chris bosh at least isn't an after thought on these forums and neither was Carter when he was with the raptors. I just think Toronto has never been a serious contender maybe that's why ?

theuuord
09-23-2009, 01:58 AM
Obviously I don't mean Toronto is as big as ny because it isn't but it's one of the largest and one of the larger ones in the NBA.

I aslo disagree with Toronto being an after thought though Chris bosh at least isn't an after thought on these forums and neither was Carter when he was with the raptors. I just think Toronto has never been a serious contender maybe that's why ?

True, their front office has kind of sucked for the last decade.

abe_froman
09-23-2009, 02:01 AM
Obviously I don't mean Toronto is as big as ny because it isn't but it's one of the largest and one of the larger ones in the NBA.

I aslo disagree with Toronto being an after thought though Chris bosh at least isn't an after thought on these forums and neither was Carter when he was with the raptors. I just think Toronto has never been a serious contender maybe that's why ?

cater,tmac..and bosh(if he leaves),because more popular/had higher merchandising sales once they left.yes on these forums its not,there's alot of canadians on here.but its what that large market represents,the exposure that comes with it.not just selling your jersey to those in tor,but those in iowa or china,or national MacDonald commercials.and you dont see many in raptor jersey's in those commercials

but maybe your right

Grizz/Cowboys09
09-23-2009, 02:29 AM
I've been to Toronto once (on the way to North Bay, Ontario) and it seems like a great city.....it's definitely not a "small market" but for whatever reason, the Raptors can't hold onto it's All Stars.....making it very difficult to draw free agents

phoenix_bladen
09-23-2009, 09:36 AM
I've been to Toronto once (on the way to North Bay, Ontario) and it seems like a great city.....it's definitely not a "small market" but for whatever reason, the Raptors can't hold onto it's All Stars.....making it very difficult to draw free agents

Toronto is definitely one of the largest markets in the NBA and the perception of that is certainly changing in the NBA almost all European players prefer playing with Toronto, look at hedo turkulgo ( can't spell his name ) he choose Toronto over Portland because of the international flavour.

I think the perception will change in the future and this year the raptors seem to have put together a pretty talented team if it works out more playerrs should be interested to come play there

hovyboo
09-23-2009, 10:09 AM
Major Markets:

NYC (step "starbury" Harrington "protege")

Miami (Wade tmobile gigs)

LA (Kobe Nike)

Chicago (Mike....)

Toronto....

ummm I think Chris Bosh does commercials for....

well um

Super.
09-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Because Canadians like Hockey more than basketball! :laugh:

BkOriginalOne
09-23-2009, 10:31 AM
Because most people from Toronto would rather watch Hockey while putting maple syrup on their ham than watch basketball.

jmastert
09-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Canadian sports teams. NBA got nothing, MLB got nothing. They own hockey thats about it. It will always be like this unless the nba spreads out to europe etc. (they are talking about this) that the market in toronto will increase. Just becasue Toronto is a major city doesnt mean it markets basketball players well. And honestly most stars dont want to play in Canada.

jmastert
09-23-2009, 10:54 AM
The only thing holding Toronto back from being a bigger market is its location. People dont want to be in Canada theyd rather be in the US. Carter, McGrady etc all left and the rapotrs have had trouble rebuilding waht they lost. I will be very surprised if Bosh stays in Toronto, he most liekely will leave.

I think Toronto is a great city but just not where the stars want to live.

SchyGuy11
09-23-2009, 11:01 AM
Because Canadians like Hockey more than basketball! :laugh:


whether or not this was just a joke i actually think that it is the actual reason. Players want to play in a city that loves basketball.

3RDASYSTEM
09-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Didnt at one time they had 2 NBA teams VANCOUVER/TORONTO...thats pretty big market/city if you have 2 of same teams like NY/LA markets do

alexanderkeiths
09-23-2009, 11:09 AM
Because most people from Toronto would rather watch Hockey while putting maple syrup on their ham than watch basketball.

sure hope you never hurt yourself with all the effort you put into thinking up that response cause im sure we all will be waiting to hear more of your wisdom...

marvILLous
09-23-2009, 12:49 PM
whether or not this was just a joke i actually think that it is the actual reason. Players want to play in a city that loves basketball.

that's why toronto was 10th in attendance last season? avging a little more than over 18,000 per game?

faiiiiiiiiiiil

hovyboo
09-23-2009, 01:22 PM
Didnt at one time they had 2 NBA teams VANCOUVER/TORONTO...thats pretty big market/city if you have 2 of same teams like NY/LA markets do

here comes the teacher in me...

ok LA and NY are cities (very large cities)
cities are in states (NYC is in NYS LA is in California)
states are in countries (NYS and California are in the USA)

USA is a Country

Canada is a country

the fact that the COUNTRY of Canada has two teams means nothing

a city having 2 teams means a lot

Less PSD more Geography :clap:

Nofear
09-23-2009, 02:02 PM
here comes the teacher in me...

ok LA and NY are cities (very large cities)
cities are in states (NYC is in NYS LA is in California)
states are in countries (NYS and California are in the USA)

USA is a Country

Canada is a country

the fact that the COUNTRY of Canada has two teams means nothing

a city having 2 teams means a lot

Less PSD more Geography :clap:


more Geography? Wrong

You may be a teacher but a market is defined by TV viewership or regional viewership when you talk sports markets. People in Vancouver get the Raptors as their "Home" game. The entire country is one market or one viewership.

Theres no blackout in Canada for Raptors games.

The guy you quoted said two teams in Canada were in the same market therfore he is right.


Didnt at one time they had 2 NBA teams VANCOUVER/TORONTO...thats pretty big market/city if you have 2 of same teams like NY/LA markets do

pebloemer
09-23-2009, 02:02 PM
The only thing holding Toronto back from being a bigger market is its location. People dont want to be in Canada theyd rather be in the US. Carter, McGrady etc all left and the rapotrs have had trouble rebuilding waht they lost. I will be very surprised if Bosh stays in Toronto, he most liekely will leave.

I think Toronto is a great city but just not where the stars want to live.

The thing about this though is that both Carter and Bosh have signed multi year extensions to stay in Toronto. That would certainly tell me that they have no problem living in Toronto or Canada or else the would have left when they had the chance. If Bosh leaves, both Carter and Bosh will have left because they team was simply not competing for a championship in the near future. Carter didn't like the direction of the franchise under Babcock and Bosh wants to win.

Other players certainly left because it is a Canadian team (ie. Antonio Davis requested a trade because he was worried about the difference in the education systems and wanted his family in the States for that or Mourning refusing to report could be another example).

Personally, I don't think there is ONE reason why players don't want to play in Toronto. A few factors play into the equation and some are relevant to certain players and some aren't.

Toronto has these factors that could work against it:

a) Unsuccessful franchise: I don't think anyone can dispute that a team that has only once made it past the first round is not considered a successful franchise.
b) Poor management in the past (ie. Babcock)
c) Similar TV exposure as smaller markets
d) Weather
e) Canadian city

Carter left because of the poor management.
Bosh may leave, but if he does it will be because of the unsuccessful franchise (he wants to win)
Marion didn't like the weather, but seemed to like the city and fans
Davis didn't like being in a Canadian city

A combination of being unsuccessful and being in Canada lead to less TV exposure.

For those negatives, Toronto still can boast a beautiful city, a multicultural feel for international players, ownership with deep pockets, fantastic fan support and a salary cap system that allows Toronto to help account for the differences in currency.

Those assets are great for the franchise and well worth discussing, but unless they are greater in the eyes of NBA players than the history of poor management and success, the difference of being a Canadian city, low TV exposure, etc etc than players will have reasons (different reasons for different players) to not want to come to Toronto. But most low budget franchise deal with a similar set of problems. Which is why in my mind Toronto is seen as a small market team.

Nofear
09-23-2009, 02:06 PM
BTW, Toronto is the biggest sports market because of 35 million TV viewership.

Double_R
09-23-2009, 02:10 PM
Market means the amount of people in the area that are willing to participate in things involving the team, such as games, promotions, buying team apparel, etc. I don't think that there are that many people outside of Toronto that are buying Blue Jays hats or Raptors shirts.

magichatnumber9
09-23-2009, 02:15 PM
Toronto's fan base is weak. Look at Boston there is not even 1 million living in that city yet we have one of the biggest sports markets period. Yall pathetic

hovyboo
09-23-2009, 02:17 PM
more Geography? Wrong

You may be a teacher but a market is defined by TV viewership or regional viewership when you talk sports markets. People in Vancouver get the Raptors as their "Home" game. The entire country is one market or one viewership.

Theres no blackout in Canada for Raptors games.

The guy you quoted said two teams in Canada were in the same market therfore he is right.

so I get the point of TV makets

but the entire country of Canada's market merits 2 teams

think about it

NYC's entire market merits 2 teams

my point still stands

clutchski
09-23-2009, 02:58 PM
Major Markets:

NYC (step "starbury" Harrington "protege")

Miami (Wade tmobile gigs)

LA (Kobe Nike)

Chicago (Mike....)

Toronto....

ummm I think Chris Bosh does commercials for....

well um

CB has commercial contracts in Canada.... and you can hardly compare him to Wade, Kobe and Mike.

smith&wesson
09-23-2009, 03:03 PM
the trueth of the matter is toronto is infact a big market city.

with close to 6 million in population, 5th largest city in north america after new mexico, new york, la, and chicao. size and population with a doubt puts them in one of the bigger market city's.

Players get national wide recognition in canada. vince carter was known as "air canada" not air toronto. he was loved and watched by fans all over the country and every fan in the states new who he was. there is no question of the exposure. Ive heard people say its due to comercials. thats nonsence. if sam mitchel can do ford commercials, then you best beleive that a super star can get comercials, and indoursments. to think that they wouldnt in canada just goes hand in hand with any other predjutice that goes along with the ignorance and perception that americans of canada. They simply see it as forein. they dont see the similarities. by ignorance i dont mean that they are stupid. its just a lack of knowledge of another country.

I remember marions biggest concerns coming to canada was: the wheather. but there are cold city's in the states too, such as utah, jersey, new york, ects.. so that holds no relevence.

so the real reasons are, taxes. players lose alot of money playing in canada paying more taxes. there are ways around it such as donating to charity and things like that but im not sure how that works. but they lose a signifigant amount of money... in marions case, he would have lost just over a million if my memory serves me correctly.

another reason is, americans are very patriotic people... they perfer to play for a city in the states. a city they know of. its not that forein to them. they feel more comftorable rather them coming to a city like toronto most of them know very little about. alot of them actually are suprized when they come here to realize its a huge city bigger then most city's in the states...hence why soo many european players are willing to play here because they dont have that same perception. Toronto has many communities of all kinds of ethnicities. we have little italy, and woodbrige, which are huge italian communities. tast of the danforth is a huge greek comunity, st clair is portugese, china town, westindian, east indian, persian, russian, you name it we got it. known to be one of the most diverse city's in the world, per haps the europeans enjoy being around more culture and in a city where theyre back round and heritage are more accepted and have well developed communities.

i dont mean to have offended any one from any country included the US. its just what i think is the most realstic and truethfull anwer.

smith&wesson
09-23-2009, 03:05 PM
CB has commercial contracts in Canada.... and you can hardly compare him to Wade, Kobe and Mike.

thats not because toronto isnt a big market city. the reason for that is kobe, wade, and mike were all on a different level then bosh. you can't compare bosh to them ... they are just way better players. i dont here gasol being mentioned in the same breath of those players either and he plays in LA.

Big Zo
09-23-2009, 03:11 PM
Toronto's fan base is weak. Look at Boston there is not even 1 million living in that city yet we have one of the biggest sports markets period. Yall pathetic

The thing with Boston teams is that all of New England associates with them.

rapswin98
09-23-2009, 03:42 PM
Because most people from Toronto would rather watch Hockey while putting maple syrup on their ham than watch basketball.Its true. Even though the Leafs suck they still sellout every game, hockey in Toronto is like basketball in NY or LA. But basketball is still very popular here.

phoenix_bladen
09-23-2009, 03:43 PM
the trueth of the matter is toronto is infact a big market city.

With close to 6 million in population, 5th largest city in north america after new mexico, new york, la, and chicao. Size and population with a doubt puts them in one of the bigger market city's.

Players get national wide recognition in canada. Vince carter was known as "air canada" not air toronto. He was loved and watched by fans all over the country and every fan in the states new who he was. There is no question of the exposure. Ive heard people say its due to comercials. Thats nonsence. If sam mitchel can do ford commercials, then you best beleive that a super star can get comercials, and indoursments. To think that they wouldnt in canada just goes hand in hand with any other predjutice that goes along with the ignorance and perception that americans of canada. They simply see it as forein. They dont see the similarities. By ignorance i dont mean that they are stupid. Its just a lack of knowledge of another country.

I remember marions biggest concerns coming to canada was: The wheather. But there are cold city's in the states too, such as utah, jersey, new york, ects.. So that holds no relevence.

So the real reasons are, taxes. Players lose alot of money playing in canada paying more taxes. There are ways around it such as donating to charity and things like that but im not sure how that works. But they lose a signifigant amount of money... In marions case, he would have lost just over a million if my memory serves me correctly.

Another reason is, americans are very patriotic people... They perfer to play for a city in the states. A city they know of. Its not that forein to them. They feel more comftorable rather them coming to a city like toronto most of them know very little about. Alot of them actually are suprized when they come here to realize its a huge city bigger then most city's in the states...hence why soo many european players are willing to play here because they dont have that same perception. Toronto has many communities of all kinds of ethnicities. We have little italy, and woodbrige, which are huge italian communities. Tast of the danforth is a huge greek comunity, st clair is portugese, china town, westindian, east indian, persian, russian, you name it we got it. Known to be one of the most diverse city's in the world, per haps the europeans enjoy being around more culture and in a city where theyre back round and heritage are more accepted and have well developed communities.

I dont mean to have offended any one from any country included the us. Its just what i think is the most realstic and truethfull anwer.

:) +1

and btw even though hockey is more important then basketball in Toronto the truth is Toronto is up near the top of the NBA in terms of attendances so there is quite a lot of people in Toronto that pays attention to basketball and not to mention like others have said all of Canada because the Toronto Raptors are Canada's team.

Vancouver was never a bad market or a bad city it is because they sucked for too many years so nobody cared about it. If you put a winning product in Vancouver there will be lots of fans and support.

CB4AB7VC15
09-23-2009, 04:10 PM
I think Toronto has come to a conclusion about US players and they probably want to be the gate way to Europe and the rest of the world. There is enough talent now and will be in the furture overseize to make the raps title contenders.

Tdots-Guido
09-23-2009, 04:19 PM
I don't understand why people say Canada does not have the market and people saying Canadians would prefer to watch hockey because that's not true. I know plenty of people who prefer basket ball and we are actually getting good here. Watch for Tristan Thompson and Cory Joseph because they are both from Toronto and soon to be in the NBA people will see Canada is taking basket ball very serious. And for those saying we have no fans, we ranked 10th in attendance in 2009 with a crappy team. Wait until this year I'm positive it will be higher.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Halladay
09-23-2009, 04:23 PM
whether or not this was just a joke i actually think that it is the actual reason. Players want to play in a city that loves basketball.

B.S. Players go wherever the money is. Living in a nice city is just a bonus.

deaner
09-23-2009, 05:45 PM
some other factors that have not been mentioned...

1. the toronto raptors have one of the largest sporting ownership groups in North America

2. the raptor's are roughly 14th in the league in roster spending. I think this year they will likely end up with par value (or slightly higher) for money spent.

3. Most players who have played in the city (recently) would speak highly of the city and org.: Charlie V, JO, A Parker, Marion, etc