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View Full Version : Hate all you want...but...



ThuglifeJ
09-14-2009, 07:59 PM
I read the sig, "what could have been", and then saw MJ's HOF speech, and it got me thinking...

Could Vince and Tmac have been the next Jordan and Pippen? Don't just bash this idea because you all hate Vince, but honestly it would have been a sight to see. I dont think the Raps could have gotten Bosh with VC and Mac (right?) but they could have found someone at Rodmans level mabye...

In their primes, Vince and Tmac were forces not be reckoned with, we can all agree. And Tmac's defense reminds me of Pippens. And Vince is capable of being a good defender when he wants to be.

Vince was not as good as MJ (even though he was said to be the Next Jordan, and could this killer team possibly motivate him to be?) , but Tmac(prime) could possibly be considered a little better than Pippen. I would still make Vince the main man (MJ) and have Tmac be the Pippen, because Vince is older and a better leader...Tmac cant lead a team out of the first round...

It's just something to think about, during this offseason...

I never liked the idea of VC+Tmac, because of too much offense, but then I thought about MJ and Pippen, and I'm starting to wish it happened.. And it'd be much like the BUlls legacy, seeing as the Bulls had never won anything before MJ. Just like the Raps were diddly before Vince.

Dont hate.

And someone help me out with who could have been the Rodman. I'm sure Barganni or someone else could have been the Luc Longely/Winnington...and Jose or whomever could have been the Steve Kurr.

AFlagRules
09-14-2009, 08:07 PM
Nah...Because T-Mac is NO WHERE NEAR PIPPEN LEVEL!!

SA5195
09-14-2009, 08:09 PM
K these stuff happened like 9 years ago, and theres about 30 threads about this lol. But Vince and T-mac are nothing and I mean nothing close to MJ and Pippen, MJ and Pippen wanted to win, while Vince was being the GM, and T-mac wanting more "fame".

nstojic
09-14-2009, 08:11 PM
i agree with everything you said... except for the 'find someone at rodmans level'... that would have been harder to do than to keep vc/tmac together... rodman only did a couple of things but he was so so so good at those couple of things... not since rodman have guys been grabbing 15-19 rpg... that's just crazy in today's game..

lorenz00
09-14-2009, 08:15 PM
Nah...Because T-Mac is NO WHERE NEAR PIPPEN LEVEL!!

excatly

ThuglifeJ
09-14-2009, 08:23 PM
Tmac puts up 30 ppg and he's no where near pippens level?

I agree Pippen and Jordan were better players, but they werent for sure better talents/athletes.. Plus VC and Tmac shoot lights out from the perimeter.

And If they stuck together I feel they would have the motivation they needed. Yeah Tmac wanted fame or w.e, but Pippen was always jealous of MJ's fame... Didn't matter in the end.

SA5195
09-14-2009, 08:29 PM
Tmac puts up 30 ppg and he's no where near pippens level?
I agree Pippen and Jordan were better players, but they werent for sure better talents/athletes.. Plus VC and Tmac shoot lights out from the perimeter.

And If they stuck together I feel they would have the motivation they needed. Yeah Tmac wanted fame or w.e, but Pippen was always jealous of MJ's fame... Didn't matter in the end.

Thats only cause Yoa gets injured most of the time and the Rockets are a pretty **** team. Better athletic ability doesn't make them better players, thats just one aspect of a player, but Pippen is a better overall player. BTW why are you camparing VC and T-mac with MJ and Pippen?!?!?!? VC and T-mac were only together for like 2 years.

MackSnackWrap
09-14-2009, 08:30 PM
T Mac could have been @ Pippens level, but none of them could have been @ Jordans level

Nexus
09-14-2009, 09:06 PM
I think this all comes down to a big theme of the week: competitiveness. Jordan is being hailed as one of the most competitive people of our time. If Vince was competitive with Toronto, the team could have done better and both he and TMAC may have stayed.

And I don't think comparing TMAC to Pippen is an insult to Pippen. Although, I'm not sure if you meant TMAC's D is on the same level as Pippen's or just that they have similar styles. If it's the former, I don't agree.

yungballah15
09-14-2009, 09:21 PM
it probaly wouldnt turn out the way people thing. thats why we gotta respect the jordan pippen combo.

secterm
09-14-2009, 09:29 PM
who's MJ...neither of them. How about they could have been dumb and dumber.

ThuglifeJ
09-14-2009, 09:35 PM
Thats only cause Yoa gets injured most of the time and the Rockets are a pretty **** team. Better athletic ability doesn't make them better players, thats just one aspect of a player, but Pippen is a better overall player. BTW why are you camparing VC and T-mac with MJ and Pippen?!?!?!? VC and T-mac were only together for like 2 years.

What in god's name are you talking about? One you didn't comprehend what I was saying, two you dont know much about the NBA.

I'm saying Vince and Tmac, IF THEY STAYED TOGETHER IN TORONTO, had potential to be something great, in similiar style to the MJ Pippen combo. There hasnt been a combo like this since MJ Pippen.

and TMAC DIDNT PUT UP THOSE NUMBERS WITH HOUSTON... he put up 32.1/5.5/6.5 with Orlando one year, having one of the best seasons of all time anyone has ever had.

Tmac was also a Raptor for 3 years, yet making no impact what so ever, and being too young. He also was out the whole second season I think.

Gibby
09-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Jordan and Pippen are both better defensively than VC or T-Mac.

Bricklayer
09-14-2009, 10:50 PM
I think the Carter/ T-mac combo could have been scary good together, but that was never really an option. Reason being is one of the 2 players would have to check their ego and play second fiddle, and I don't think either player was willing to do so. It's kind of fitting the way their careers have gone since, either one of them winning anything.

Karma.

td0tsfinest
09-14-2009, 11:13 PM
Offensively; Maybe
Defensively; hell no

Pippen and Jordan were two of the greatest perimeter defenders while T-Mac and Vince are guys who really lack on the defensive end. Sure their are games were the play well but they tend to take plays off on the offensive end.

Thats the difference.

koreancabbage
09-14-2009, 11:16 PM
IF TMac and Carter both stayed in Toronto, yea, they could've definitely been the next "thing" in the NBA. I think both of them could've been something special- and it looked that way in their first year making the playoffs.

If we had this line-up:

Alvin Williams
Carter
TMac
Oakley
Davis

for the next 3-4 years after their first playoff birth, i think we could have easily made it to the NBA finals a couple of times

jsumadchat
09-14-2009, 11:37 PM
i believe you are referencing my sig, and i do agree with you. i think everyone here is kind of overreacting to the fact that a comparison between the two tandems was made. i dont think the OP meant in terms of talent, but rather success and what could have turned out to be utter domination of the league. think about that time frame. between the years of 99-03, VC and tmac were the premier draws of the eastern conference and MAYBE the entire NBA. with that being said, no one HAS and no one WILL be as effective or successful together as jordan and pippen. however, with the state that the NBA was in at the time, i think the only other tandems that could have held a candle to us would have been shaq and kobe or david robinson and tim duncan. although it was quite a while ago, its all theoretical and its pretty obvious we would have been in a good situation. just think, we were THAT close.

secterm
09-15-2009, 12:04 AM
Yeah but T-Mac bolted as soon as he had a chance. He wouldn't have stayed so it never really had a chance. I just wish we could have gotten some decent value for him.

hades
09-15-2009, 07:38 AM
What in god's name are you talking about? One you didn't comprehend what I was saying, two you dont know much about the NBA.

I'm saying Vince and Tmac, IF THEY STAYED TOGETHER IN TORONTO, had potential to be something great, in similiar style to the MJ Pippen combo. There hasnt been a combo like this since MJ Pippen.

and TMAC DIDNT PUT UP THOSE NUMBERS WITH HOUSTON... he put up 32.1/5.5/6.5 with Orlando one year, having one of the best seasons of all time anyone has ever had.

Tmac was also a Raptor for 3 years, yet making no impact what so ever, and being too young. He also was out the whole second season I think.

I think somewhere along those lines you have to include babcock and or grunwald will amount to the potential of a Jerry krause... He did give the bulls the tools

:p

bartron_44
09-15-2009, 08:36 AM
I think it just happened a decade too early. Back then there weren't many teams with more than 1 "star" player. However, if you look at it now, you see many teams have realized that you need 2 or 3 "star" type players in order to win a championship.

The real queastion is, did VC and TMac ever want to win when they were younger, or did they just care about getting paid. If they wanted to win, they would have stuck together in the first place imo. If they did decide to play together, they would have been the most foolish wing tandem since MJ and Pippen, but nothing like them. MJ and Pippen were both all NBA defensive players when they were winning championships. Sure TMac's offense is a bit more well rounded than Pippen, but his defense is no where near Pippen's. And VC...well I never did like the MJ comparisons. MJ was a no nonsense WINNER, and arguably the best player of all time. (Definately the best of his era..but what about Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell?)

Anyway, thats a differnet argument, but VC is no where near the best player of his era.....he has never even been to the finals ffs. I mean, he was on MJ's level at dunking the basketball, but that was only young MJ...MJ in his prime was a lights out defender, and had the best turnaround jump shot of all time...it was absolutlely unstopable!

There is a reason why you will find both Jordan AND Pippen on the NBA's top 50 player's of all time.......and neither one of Carter or TMac. So while the combo would have been electric, it was no where near the level of greatness as MJ and Pippen. (Hell, Kobe hasn't even cracked the top 50 list.....and he is WAYY better than VC...)

Here is a better comparison:

Lebron/Shaq vs Kareem/Magic

Two of the most dominant big men in the history of the game....and 2 of the best gaurds in the history of the game (Lebron will be top 50 before he's done...gauranteed!!)

I know Shaq is winding down, but he seemed energized last year, and is still one of the most dominant players in the game.

Sure Magic was a PG, but the guy was 6'8, and could do whatever he wanted. Heck, he had one of his best games ever at Center ffs. Lebron is at least 6'8, and can play all 5 positions with his strength and vertical. I think Lebron is turning into Magic with more hops!!

swoop
09-15-2009, 09:06 AM
/\You cannot use the Lebron/Shaq comparison. Shaq daddy is not the same guy he was a decade ago. Shaq/Kobe is far more apt. Championships have to be included in any of these comparisons.
I think that had VC and TMac stayed together they would have kept the Raps in the playoffs for a decade. The main problem they'd have had would be toughness. All of these great duos were killers. They could take it upon themselves to do just about anything to win. I don't know if the 'cousins' would have ever grown the cojones.

AFlagRules
09-15-2009, 10:47 AM
I mean T-Mac is nowhere near Pippen defensively. Sure he can score as many points as you can imagine, but Pippen could take over games late because of his DEFENSE! And remember kids, defense wins championships, not 2 cousins who are constantly sucking pacifiers and complaining of injuries.

Don P.Belasario
09-15-2009, 12:34 PM
I dont blame McGrady for leaving. The Toronto media always made him second fiddle to VC (even though he was here first). I remeber games where Mcgrady dropped 25 and carter got 15 and all the highlights were all VC. This didn't happen on one or two occasions, but repeatedly throughout his time in Toronto. I think we are all aware of how negatively Toronto media impacts teams and individual players.

Its too bad they couldn't see the long term picture, cause yeah if they had the chance to grow together they might have been the next MJ/Pippen like combo (although Mike made it pretty evident that he doesn't belive there will ever be another MJ... hes probably right too).

I also think its pretty evident when a charater guy like J Kidd (minus the spousal abuse) indicates that he doesn't want to play with VC any longer. So much talent and so little passion... a real catch 22.

ThuglifeJ
09-15-2009, 07:44 PM
Umm J kidd didn't leave because he didn't want to play with VC. He didn't wanna play with the Nets. The RJ/VC/Kidd trio didn't work. They didn't have much support besides that, but after a couple tries and after RJ left, it was a matter of time until Kidd and Vince left.
I've only heard good come out of Kidd's mouth about Vince.
Y would Kidd want to stay around when it's JUST Kidd and Vince. Not another worthy player.

And ppl..Why are you acting like McGrady doesnt have good defense..he may be lazy... but he's was excellent man defender.

Gibby
09-15-2009, 09:51 PM
i think both being wing players was the problem. Jordan and Pippen were both wing players but one was really good defensive player and other was good offensively. If Carter and T-mac stayed together, one or both of their offensive stats would have suffered. I am not sure if they were willing to make that sacrifice. Even if they stayed together, i don't think they would have been effective as Jordan/Pippen combo.

swoop
09-16-2009, 01:39 AM
Umm J kidd didn't leave because he didn't want to play with VC. He didn't wanna play with the Nets. The RJ/VC/Kidd trio didn't work. They didn't have much support besides that, but after a couple tries and after RJ left, it was a matter of time until Kidd and Vince left.
I've only heard good come out of Kidd's mouth about Vince.
Y would Kidd want to stay around when it's JUST Kidd and Vince. Not another worthy player.

And ppl..Why are you acting like McGrady doesnt have good defense..he may be lazy... but he's was excellent man defender.

You obviously never saw JK hiding his face while Wince rolled around like he was shot. Jk is a , NBA-wise, classy guy. He would never slag VC in public. There were plenty of times the disgust was evident. Jk gives it all on the floor. VC doesn't. The two aspects don't jive.

Chronz
09-16-2009, 08:36 PM
Had Tmac stayed and the training staff remained the same to help his development he wouldve overtaken Vince in the offensive hierarchy, those saying Tmac wasnt a good defender werent paying close attention