PDA

View Full Version : How much did this Shot affect Vince Carter's Legacy?



JordansBulls
09-12-2009, 09:51 AM
It was game 7 of the 2nd round in 2001 in Philly down by 1 point. If he makes the shot the Raptors are in the ECF with a chance to actually make the finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3emK-oy0LyQ

Did Vince missing that shot hurt his legacy a bit?

Sly Guy
09-12-2009, 10:06 AM
I think it's more telling that he never led the raps to that point again.

King P
09-12-2009, 10:27 AM
It does a little bit. But if he can perform well and help lead the Magic far into the playoffs, he can erase that from his head.

d-baller23
09-12-2009, 10:35 AM
Vince Carter is still going down as one of the best players to play the game. He's a Future HOF, Michael Jordan missed plenty of shots in his day. But time moves on and you create history.

Aapox
09-12-2009, 10:46 AM
Maybe a little bit...

But when it comes to Vinsanity, ridiculous athleticism and big plays represent his career, not really winning, so I don't think so. Just look at all the other incredible highlights of his that that video links you to.

Taimla
09-12-2009, 10:50 AM
He's a Future HOF

Only if he can lead Magic to the title as a go to guy.

Gibby
09-12-2009, 11:03 AM
him missing shot doesnt because even greats miss shots. i think what hurts his legacy is not even playing hard in his last few years with the raptors, especially his last year.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-12-2009, 11:12 AM
I don't think so...

Vince and AI went to war this series.

LanceUpperCut
09-12-2009, 11:16 AM
Wanting out of Toronto killed his career.

ombada
09-12-2009, 11:22 AM
Only if he can lead Magic to the title as a go to guy.

I disagree whole heartily. Did Stockton not just get inducted? what about Reggie Miller? you dont think he will be first ballot? He will, and so will Vince.

jsumadchat
09-12-2009, 11:29 AM
being a puss with no heart and desire EVERY second on the floor is what may lead to his fade into obscurity. great players make highlights, while HOFers and guys with a legacy make highlights AND players around them better. you tell me which category VC falls under. no doubt is he a great talent, and one of my personal favourite players of all time, but he is no MJ, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, or Kobe. had he just gave it his all no matter how tough it got in certain situations, i dont think we'd even be having in conversation. all the talent in the world, without the heart of a KG or a Stockton.

todu82
09-12-2009, 11:29 AM
Vince's legacy was ruined in his last few years as a Raptor by wanting out.

BkOriginalOne
09-12-2009, 11:37 AM
He should have stayed and played with Tmac. They would've been the best offensive altheltic 1-2 punch in decades.
That was a good year in the playoffs, BTW.
Vince is still a 20,5,5 guy - that's pretty impressive. Let's see how he does with the Magic, def into the second round - but I don't even see them getting to the ECF.

jsumadchat
09-12-2009, 11:40 AM
He should have stayed and played with Tmac. They would've been the best offensive altheltic 1-2 punch in decades.
That was a good year in the playoffs, BTW.
Vince is still a 20,5,5 guy - that's pretty impressive. Let's see how he does with the Magic, def into the second round - but I don't even see them getting to the ECF.

stayed and played with tmac how? tmac was hungry and wanted the spotlight. he saw the dollar signs and had all the talent to back it up, it wasnt on VC at all. VC was around long after tmac left the raps, so how could the two have played together any longer?

smith&wesson
09-12-2009, 12:26 PM
one shot doesnt define your legacy. i think him being able to get a mediocre raps team that far was an acomplishment in its self, as was iverson getting his very mediocre team eave further.

SA5195
09-12-2009, 01:17 PM
The thing that affected his legacy was that 1 game before he went to his graduation, if he came and won we would have been to the ECF. But no he had to go to his grad. I mean it just...nevermind, i'm getting sick of Carter.

effen5
09-12-2009, 01:26 PM
I disagree whole heartily. Did Stockton not just get inducted? what about Reggie Miller? you dont think he will be first ballot? He will, and so will Vince.

Ummmm I hope this is a joke.....Stockton did so much for the game much more then Vince will ever do.

Vince

Awards 8-time All-Star
2-time All-NBA Selection
1999 NBA Rookie of the Year
2000 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
2000 Olympic Gold medalist

Stockton

Points 19,711 (ranks 30th in NBA history)
Assists 15,806 (ranks 1st in NBA history)
Steals 3,265 (ranks 1st in NBA history)

10 NBA All-Star (19891997, 2000)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
2 All-NBA First Team Selection
6 All-NBA Second Team Selection
3 All-NBA Third Team Selection
5 NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection
2 Bausch and Lomb Court Vision Award Winner
2 Allstate Good Hands Award Winner



I wouldn't consider Vince a top 100 player in NBA history...Vince should not get in.

IversonIsKrazy
09-12-2009, 02:05 PM
IMO, if he had made that shot and went to the finals, he would be considered one of the best players right now, and a future HOFer for sure. But since he missed, its still a maybe.

ThuglifeJ
09-12-2009, 02:40 PM
that series Philly vs Toronto was so epic, that if he made this shot, it'd be the best playoff series of all time for me and many others...Many consider it one of the best already, and if he made that shot, my god.

rrude
09-12-2009, 03:03 PM
the difference between being a winner and a guy who jacks up too many shots is making them. I remember watching this series and thinking more than once that Vince forced up too many shots, especially threes. That was his legacy at that point in his career. Great player but undisciplined about shot selection and not particularly clutch. It wasn't just this shot but several others he didn't need to take out beyond the arc that cost them the series.

He was much better at Jersey both at knowing when to shoot and at making big shots. But the 2001 shot was true to his identity then.

td0tsfinest
09-12-2009, 06:52 PM
i died a little when that happened thanks for bringing it up again

asandhu23
09-12-2009, 09:22 PM
Ummmm I hope this is a joke.....Stockton did so much for the game much more then Vince will ever do.

Vince

Awards 8-time All-Star
2-time All-NBA Selection
1999 NBA Rookie of the Year
2000 NBA Slam Dunk Champion
2000 Olympic Gold medalist

Stockton

Points 19,711 (ranks 30th in NBA history)
Assists 15,806 (ranks 1st in NBA history)
Steals 3,265 (ranks 1st in NBA history)

10 NBA All-Star (19891997, 2000)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
2 All-NBA First Team Selection
6 All-NBA Second Team Selection
3 All-NBA Third Team Selection
5 NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection
2 Bausch and Lomb Court Vision Award Winner
2 Allstate Good Hands Award Winner



I wouldn't consider Vince a top 100 player in NBA history...Vince should not get in.


Stockton also has a gold medal. he was on the dream team

Raps18-19 Champ
09-12-2009, 09:24 PM
It was the most important shot of his career.

IndyRealist
09-12-2009, 09:54 PM
one shot doesnt define your legacy. i think him being able to get a mediocre raps team that far was an acomplishment in its self, as was iverson getting his very mediocre team eave further.

Unless you're Craig Ehlo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bvyUcmFgMA

MackSnackWrap
09-12-2009, 10:35 PM
It hurt his legacy a little bit not alot

AirJordanXVIII
09-12-2009, 11:05 PM
YEa I wouldnt say it KILLED him.

AIsixersFK
09-12-2009, 11:18 PM
I remember watching this game live and if I remember correctly, VC had flown back from NC due to the fact he graduated. But all in all it was the best missed shot in NBA history. Go Sixers!

Raph12
09-13-2009, 12:11 AM
It was the most important shot of his career, but even if they won against the Sixers, the Bucks would probably eliminate them, so ECFs. Not the greatest accomplishment in my books, if he wins a title with Dwight or puts up 20-5-5 for two or three more seasons, then he makes the HOF IMO.

Rego247
09-13-2009, 12:42 AM
Stockton also has a gold medal. he was on the dream team

I believe Carter also has a gold medal but it doesnt matter ... u cant mention vince carter in the same breath as john stockton ... plus i dont think the shot hurt his legacy ...publicly admitting u did not try or compete for ur team does ... It is something few will ever forget .. say what u want about MJ , stockton.. those guys competed vince carter in the later years with the Raps did not which is why he isnt deservant of the HOF

blastmasta26
09-13-2009, 12:47 AM
It was the most important shot of his career, but even if they won against the Sixers, the Bucks would probably eliminate them, so ECFs. Not the greatest accomplishment in my books, if he wins a title with Dwight or puts up 20-5-5 for two or three more seasons, then he makes the HOF IMO.
That's true. I'm a fan of Vince, so I hope he can do well and put up big numbers.

DCB/LAL
09-13-2009, 01:09 AM
Not Much 1 shot doesn't break a players Legacy but IT CAN MAKE IT!!

Ever heard of "to suceed first you must fail" kinda fits what happened only problem with that is he hasn't suceeded YET....I guess I should say it hasn't affected his legacy YET.......If that makes any sense?? :shrug:

Lakersfan2483
09-13-2009, 01:20 AM
It was game 7 of the 2nd round in 2001 in Philly down by 1 point. If he makes the shot the Raptors are in the ECF with a chance to actually make the finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3emK-oy0LyQ

Did Vince missing that shot hurt his legacy a bit?

Simple answer: No.

Gambeezy
09-13-2009, 01:49 AM
Not Much 1 shot doesn't break a players Legacy but IT CAN MAKE IT!!

Ever heard of "to suceed first you must fail" kinda fits what happened only problem with that is he hasn't suceeded YET....I guess I should say it hasn't affected his legacy YET.......If that makes any sense?? :shrug:


I think he succeeded when he dunked over a 7 footer and then almost landed a haymaker that would've killed KG..

Legacy cemented.

DCB/LAL
09-13-2009, 11:11 AM
I think he succeeded when he dunked over a 7 footer and then almost landed a haymaker that would've killed KG..

Legacy cemented.

No suceeding would mean winning a championship for now Vince Carter is only known as the guy who "dunked over a 7 footer" as you recall and im pretty sure he'd rather be remembered as a CAHMPION no just a great dunker so like I said it hasn't affected his legacy YET but im pretty sure he doesn't just wanna be remembered as a DUNKER lucky for him he's still playing and still has a shot especially now that he's on a contender this is his chance to have his legacy "cemented" as you said.

Raph12
09-13-2009, 01:04 PM
No suceeding would mean winning a championship for now Vince Carter is only known as the guy who "dunked over a 7 footer" as you recall and im pretty sure he'd rather be remembered as a CAHMPION no just a great dunker so like I said it hasn't affected his legacy YET but im pretty sure he doesn't just wanna be remembered as a DUNKER lucky for him he's still playing and still has a shot especially now that he's on a contender this is his chance to have his legacy "cemented" as you said.

Actually he is known by most as the best dunker of all-time, but your right, adding a ring to his resume will help cement his name into the HOF.

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-14-2009, 06:44 PM
I'm sorry, but what is Vince Carters legacy? He does not have one. 30 years from now, he will only be known as a high flier. He has no big moments in the playoffs, he has never been to the finals, he hasn't even gotten one of his teams to the Eastern Conference finals! His teams have only made the playoffs 5 times in his 11 year career. He is a guy who put up nice stats on crappy teams for most of his career. He is a high flying Al Jefferson of the Wolves. Nice stats, that never amounted to wins for his teams.

iggypop123
09-14-2009, 06:56 PM
no cause getting swept by the lakers was going to hurt more

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-14-2009, 07:36 PM
no cause getting swept by the lakers was going to hurt more

He would not have even had a chance at the Lakers next, that shot was only in the second round

ThuglifeJ
09-14-2009, 07:40 PM
how can u say he's had "NO big moments in the playoffs"

AI Vs Carter was a big deal to a lotta ppl, and the way Vince performed. Not to mention he had some big playoff games with the Nets

rabzouz 96
09-14-2009, 07:57 PM
I'm sorry, but what is Vince Carters legacy? He does not have one. 30 years from now, he will only be known as a high flier. He has no big moments in the playoffs, he has never been to the finals, he hasn't even gotten one of his teams to the Eastern Conference finals! His teams have only made the playoffs 5 times in his 11 year career. He is a guy who put up nice stats on crappy teams for most of his career. He is a high flying Al Jefferson of the Wolves. Nice stats, that never amounted to wins for his teams.

hw has some pretty nice playoff moments, against philly, against raptors against zo on miami, he just never had a bigman on his roster or a roster itself to make it anywhere and now its kind of too late. he had that nice playoff surge when he was traded to nets.and thta crappy team part, could be the reason why his stats never translated into more than a 2nd round exit, not every player has the luck to land on a good roster.

lorenz00
09-14-2009, 08:11 PM
if carter wins that game probably raps were in the finals :D

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-14-2009, 08:13 PM
how can u say he's had "NO big moments in the playoffs"

AI Vs Carter was a big deal to a lotta ppl, and the way Vince performed. Not to mention he had some big playoff games with the Nets

I say that because I dont believe anyone can have a big moment in the first or second round. Not enough at stake. And especially in Carters case. The East was a well known joke in the early 2000's. It was a known fact that anyone coming out of the east from 2000 to 2003 was going to be the sacrificial lamb to who ever came out of the west. And for a guy that supposedly has a hall of fame career, and hall of fame talent, I find it unacceptable to not even get to round 3 of the playoffs against such weak competition at the time.

ThuglifeJ
09-14-2009, 08:14 PM
ya for real I dont get why ppl are holding this "playoff", "championship" BS on him...

Hes had VERY little chance to ever get to the Finals. You cannot honestly say that those couple years where he had a solid team in New Jersey, that they should have made it to the finals. And his first season with the Nets, he was the best player on the team hands down, and lead the Nets...With the Raptors, HE CARRIED THE TEAM ON HIS SHOULDERS, and everyone is holding it against him?

He hasnt had the oppurtunity to win a championship... Teams win championships, not players...

AK23
09-14-2009, 08:18 PM
him missing shot doesnt because even greats miss shots. i think what hurts his legacy is not even playing hard in his last few years with the raptors, especially his last year.

completly agreed

ThuglifeJ
09-14-2009, 08:18 PM
I say that because I dont believe anyone can have a big moment in the first or second round. Not enough at stake. And especially in Carters case. The East was a well known joke in the early 2000's. It was a known fact that anyone coming out of the east from 2000 to 2003 was going to be the sacrificial lamb to who ever came out of the west. And for a guy that supposedly has a hall of fame career, and hall of fame talent, I find it unacceptable to not even get to round 3 of the playoffs against such weak competition at the time.

Weak competition?? LOOK AT VINCE's TEAM! His early 2000s team was the weak competition....Nothing at stake? Aren't you eliminated from the playoffs if you lose the series?...

It's like 1v5, Vince vs 5 out there and you're still holding it against him. Antonio Davis was good, but he wasnt a Shaq...And don't even bring up Tmac, or you have no idea what you're talking about.

Nexus
09-14-2009, 09:20 PM
That was actually the second of two identical looking chances for Vince during that shot clock.

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-15-2009, 05:29 AM
Weak competition?? LOOK AT VINCE's TEAM! His early 2000s team was the weak competition....Nothing at stake? Aren't you eliminated from the playoffs if you lose the series?...

It's like 1v5, Vince vs 5 out there and you're still holding it against him. Antonio Davis was good, but he wasnt a Shaq...And don't even bring up Tmac, or you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, Vince has not played with a star player besides Jason Kidd. But sometimes, its the star players fault that his teammates are not more well known. If Vince showed that he cared about winning at all cost, it would motivate his teammates to want to improve. In fact, it almost forces them to elevate their training and practicing, just to keep up with the leader of the team. If the other players see the main star of the team, not be fiery, not want it bad, not have a great work ethic, they wont either.

Jordan forced his teammates to be great. Magic did not accept his teammates to be lackadaisical. Kobe demands his teammates put in the work. Sometimes, when they say "make your teammates better" they are not just referring to being able to create an open jump shot for your teammate. They are also referring to the behind the scene stuff, the time when a player really does get better. In the gym, at practice, in film study. The greats get their teammates to follow suit. I just have never seen that type of passion from Carter. And him admitting he gave up on the Raptors is all the proof I will ever need to prove my point. Nobody will ever follow that guy after that.

rabzouz 96
09-15-2009, 07:19 AM
Yes, Vince has not played with a star player besides Jason Kidd. But sometimes, its the star players fault that his teammates are not more well known. If Vince showed that he cared about winning at all cost, it would motivate his teammates to want to improve. In fact, it almost forces them to elevate their training and practicing, just to keep up with the leader of the team. If the other players see the main star of the team, not be fiery, not want it bad, not have a great work ethic, they wont either.

Jordan forced his teammates to be great. Magic did not accept his teammates to be lackadaisical. Kobe demands his teammates put in the work. Sometimes, when they say "make your teammates better" they are not just referring to being able to create an open jump shot for your teammate. They are also referring to the behind the scene stuff, the time when a player really does get better. In the gym, at practice, in film study. The greats get their teammates to follow suit. I just have never seen that type of passion from Carter. And him admitting he gave up on the Raptors is all the proof I will ever need to prove my point. Nobody will ever follow that guy after that.

lulz, all the players you named actually had some talented players on the roster that could develop into something becasue they had the potential to do so, carters team did not, he had guys like lammond murray, mo pete, antonio davis and the junkyard dog an old charles oakley, players that had the potential to develop into role and bench players. magic,kobe and mj had a better front office that could create a team for their players, and kobe couldnt get a team with lamar odom and caron butler into the playoffs and after that out of the 1st round he just did it whenthe roster was improved and the bigman came. winning is more about the front office than a single player,with the exception of mj and lbj.

McJoe
09-15-2009, 07:51 AM
I think that this moment pretty much sums up Vince Carter's career as a Raptor at least. He was always close but no cigar in Toronto. I still contend that this is an open shot, he faked the guy out of his shoes and then went up with the guy past him.

There is a missing link in this moment. Before this game he went to North Carolina for his graduation and everyone argued that his head was not in this game. He showed up shortly before the game started and really was not ready to play in this game.

This was also the beginning of the end for him in Toronto IMO. This was their big chance to go the distance and it was his big chance to break into the upper echelon of NBA talent and he blew it. It wasnt the greatest supporting cast but it was a supporting cast built around him. A good defensive and pass first point guard in Alvin Williams, a scoring C/PF to be his 2nd option and play inside/outside game, a rebounder in Charles Oakley, a good defensive SF in Mo Pete, and a couple good complimentary players like Corliss Williamson, Keon Clark, Mark Jackson, Dell Curry, and Chris Childs. It was his team and his chance to be up in the upper echelon with Kobe and he couldnt do it.

It affects his career because it cemented his place in the 2nd tier of stars.

JordansBulls
09-15-2009, 08:06 AM
lulz, all the players you named actually had some talented players on the roster that could develop into something becasue they had the potential to do so, carters team did not, he had guys like lammond murray, mo pete, antonio davis and the junkyard dog an old charles oakley, players that had the potential to develop into role and bench players. magic,kobe and mj had a better front office that could create a team for their players, and kobe couldnt get a team with lamar odom and caron butler into the playoffs and after that out of the 1st round he just did it whenthe roster was improved and the bigman came. winning is more about the front office than a single player,with the exception of mj and lbj.

No offense, but Pippen was a work in progress and admitted that he got better on both ends because of having to defend MJ constantly in practice and MJ would show him moves. Vince had T-mac who also was a work in progress but look at how good he became.

Mr.ATLHawks
09-15-2009, 08:24 AM
Future HOF'mer? Hmmmm I doubt it, it better be a year witha weak class he DEFINITELY will not be a first ballot HOF'mer mark my words on that. What is this guy known for besides dunking? Being hurt alot and crying like a baby. Talent, yes...Drive...no. HOF? IMO...No..

rabzouz 96
09-15-2009, 01:25 PM
No offense, but Pippen was a work in progress and admitted that he got better on both ends because of having to defend MJ constantly in practice and MJ would show him moves. Vince had T-mac who also was a work in progress but look at how good he became.

yeah pippen was a work in progress i know that he wasnt seen a star from the beginning of his career, but he had much more in him than any of the toronto guys. im sorry but that t-mac argument is totally invalid, not only did t-mac develop and make the playoffs with carter, which by the arguments logic would be a credit to vince, he also left the team after the 1st playoff year, which shows that when vc had a not nearly fully developed t-mac, hence a little talaent on the roster he was able to hieve his team into the playoffs.

Missing56&33
09-15-2009, 01:31 PM
It didn't hurt him, they barely got pass the knicks opening round....Patrick Ewingless knicks and they would have loss to the Bucks had they advanced and they definitely would have loss to the Lakers in route to their third straight title.

Vince can do something special this year....he has the surrounding cast to finally win it all.

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-15-2009, 02:20 PM
lulz, all the players you named actually had some talented players on the roster that could develop into something becasue they had the potential to do so, carters team did not, he had guys like lammond murray, mo pete, antonio davis and the junkyard dog an old charles oakley, players that had the potential to develop into role and bench players. magic,kobe and mj had a better front office that could create a team for their players, and kobe couldnt get a team with lamar odom and caron butler into the playoffs and after that out of the 1st round he just did it whenthe roster was improved and the bigman came. winning is more about the front office than a single player,with the exception of mj and lbj.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You say "Caron Butler" as if he had been a star since the day he was born. He only averaged 12 pts 5 rebounds 2 assist while shooting a horrible 39% from the field his years in Miami. Is that a born star in your opinion? Or do you believe him when he says he became a better player once he worked out all summer with Kobe and stole his work out regiment? Since he played with Kobe, and learned what it took to be a star basketball player, he has averaged 19 points 6.5 rebounds, 4 assist shooting 46% over the last 5 years. He was not this type of player when the Lakers traded for him. I contest that he would not have become this type of player had he been dealt to a Vince Carter team.

SteveNash
09-15-2009, 02:51 PM
Would have had a huge impact on Carter's career. Just look at what it's done for AI. It's the only thing AI fans can cling to win people say Iverson is a loser. Carter fans could be using that excuse as the reason why Vince Carter is great.

It was an open shot, but it wasn't easy. Certainly Carter didn't make it any easier by fading/leaning while rushing to get the shot off.

Double_R
09-15-2009, 03:10 PM
What a stupid question

Double_R
09-15-2009, 03:10 PM
One shot doesnt make or break a legacy

rabzouz 96
09-15-2009, 03:52 PM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You say "Caron Butler" as if he had been a star since the day he was born. He only averaged 12 pts 5 rebounds 2 assist while shooting a horrible 39% from the field his years in Miami. Is that a born star in your opinion? Or do you believe him when he says he became a better player once he worked out all summer with Kobe and stole his work out regiment? Since he played with Kobe, and learned what it took to be a star basketball player, he has averaged 19 points 6.5 rebounds, 4 assist shooting 46% over the last 5 years. He was not this type of player when the Lakers traded for him. I contest that he would not have become this type of player had he been dealt to a Vince Carter team.

lulz your argument on butler is totally wrong. and yes he woulda been the same star no matter on what roster he played as long as he got playing time. first thing is he was looked at as a paul pierce type of player from the beginning as someone who would most likely develop into a star and the pierce comparisons flamed up after he fell to the 10th spot. then his stats as a rookie( a season where he made it to the all nba rookie team) were pretty similar to his stats as a laker, he had a slump in his sophomore year due to some injuries, which is why his shooting percentages sunk. the year after the lakers he improved his stats in a pretty normal range for young up and coming players his development was nothing spectacular, so i wouldnt accredit kobe all too much for that.

BluejaysFan08
09-15-2009, 04:02 PM
The things he did in T>O were terrible.

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-15-2009, 06:53 PM
lulz your argument on butler is totally wrong. and yes he woulda been the same star no matter on what roster he played as long as he got playing time. first thing is he was looked at as a paul pierce type of player from the beginning as someone who would most likely develop into a star and the pierce comparisons flamed up after he fell to the 10th spot. then his stats as a rookie( a season where he made it to the all nba rookie team) were pretty similar to his stats as a laker, he had a slump in his sophomore year due to some injuries, which is why his shooting percentages sunk. the year after the lakers he improved his stats in a pretty normal range for young up and coming players his development was nothing spectacular, so i wouldnt accredit kobe all too much for that.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Vince Carter has never been accused of making his teammates better. He has never been accused of wanting to win at all cost. He has never been accused of being a winner period.

And Caron Butler was just one example of a player improving once he played with Kobe. Whether you want to believe Kobe had anything to do with it or not, is up to you. But you can also look at Pau Gasol. His numbers have improved dramatically since he has joined the Lakers. He is now known as one of the best big men in the game, as opposed to a pretty good player. Bynum also improved himself after Kobe called him out. Ariza was a cast away for the Knicks and the Magic but now, everyone says the Lakers wont repeat without him. Do you think that Kobe has nothing to do with any of their development? If you do, I suggest you watch the Lakers championship DVD of this past year. When every single one of those players says the reason they worked so hard on their game, was because Kobe pushes them every day to get better.

Draco
09-15-2009, 07:19 PM
Butler played one season with the Laker's and Kobe. I'll choose to believe that Kobe had little to do with his development.

ThuglifeJ
09-15-2009, 07:31 PM
Have you seen Devin Harris lately?? Coach Frank even states plenty that Vince Carter developed Harris and Lopez into the players they are. Devin wasnt a star until he played along side Vince. Vet Vince, age 31, pushed his stats aside to develop young Harris.

Ive heard Frank say this plenty of times. At the end of some games VC even let Harris try to take the big shot (seeing as the Nets had little chance to do anything last year, the team was blaaahh). Harris didn't hit many clutch shots (besides that unreal one)...

So yeah he makes players around him better. He took his team last year, picked to finish dead last, and lead them through the playoff chase, and developed all those young players into something worthy. Look at Lopez, Harris, Dooling,....and everyone's 3 pt %s....I wonder who those 5 assists per game meant.

Ppl just love to bash Vince..It gets old...most ppl dont even watch him play anymore.

JordansBulls
09-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Butler played one season with the Laker's and Kobe. I'll choose to believe that Kobe had little to do with his development.

He also played with Wade the year before, he and Odom. Then he went to Arenas.

rabzouz 96
09-15-2009, 09:08 PM
Whether you want to admit it or not, Vince Carter has never been accused of making his teammates better. He has never been accused of wanting to win at all cost. He has never been accused of being a winner period.thats because he never was on a good team. he showed that he can carry a team in his early toronto years and when he got traded to the nets.and so much to your makes teammates better theorie.

Have you seen Devin Harris lately?? Coach Frank even states plenty that Vince Carter developed Harris and Lopez into the players they are. Devin wasnt a star until he played along side Vince. Vet Vince, age 31, pushed his stats aside to develop young Harris.

Ive heard Frank say this plenty of times. At the end of some games VC even let Harris try to take the big shot (seeing as the Nets had little chance to do anything last year, the team was blaaahh). Harris didn't hit many clutch shots (besides that unreal one)...

So yeah he makes players around him better. He took his team last year, picked to finish dead last, and lead them through the playoff chase, and developed all those young players into something worthy. Look at Lopez, Harris, Dooling,....and everyone's 3 pt %s....I wonder who those 5 assists per game meant.

Ppl just love to bash Vince..It gets old...most ppl dont even watch him play anymore.

dont get me wrong, im not saying vince develops players and kobe doesnt. but im giving neither one too much credit for "developing" teammates, most of the time there are other stars on other rosters that woulda done the same effect on them. and yeah kobe might have the edge in motivating people to train, but there are more ways to help a player develop than put him under pressure to perform.


And Caron Butler was just one example of a player improving once he played with Kobe.as i proved in my last post,he wasnt. whether you want to keep ignoring facts is up to you. Whether you want to believe Kobe had anything to do with it or not, is up to you. But you can also look at Pau Gasol. His numbers have improved dramatically since he has joined the Lakers.
lolwut,you should stop making up player histories. paus stats remained the same with the lakers, they even got slightly worse, 06-07 was his best season and it was in memphis.
He is now known as one of the best big men in the game, as opposed to a pretty good player.
thats because most people are dumb and have no idea of basketball but talk nontheless. pau is about the same player he was in memphis hes just on a good structured roster that had success and found his role as a 2nd option player, no longer a 1st option player which he is not but was forced to be in memphis. its the same with kg,ray allen and paul pierce, they are the same players they were before and just won because all three were put together on that great boston roster. but that didnt make them any more of a winner than before,but when people were like pierce or allen are the same players as vc, nice stats but no winners they are considered hof material and winners now for being on a stacked roster.
Bynum also improved himself after Kobe called him out.
what a surprise,a lottery-picked rookie improved over the years.
Ariza was a cast away for the Knicks and the Magic but now, everyone says the Lakers wont repeat without him.as a knicks fan i followed ariza pretty closely and he was nothing like a castaway on either the knicks nor the magic. he was picked in the 2nd round and considered a big steal because people said had he waited a year he mightve gone 1st round.and he looked good in his 1st year. 2nd year he fell victim to larry brown and his "i destroy rookies because i rather play talentless vets who cant do anything else but defend mediocre" philosophy and had to go for stevie franchise in a mightstruggle between brown and isiah. and in his first full magic season he looked pretty promising again with a season that was very comparable to his most recent lakers season.but in orlando he had too many wing players in the rotation in front of him,so he was traded to the lakers where he found his spot and could develop. it was a pretty perfect situation for him, because it was a very good team but had a wing spot free for him where he could develop. so while i can live with giving kobe a little bit of credit for it, its not a stunning development he made and i think the opportunity and fit were the bigger thing in his development, which wasnt very surprising if you followed him before his lakers time.
Do you think that Kobe has nothing to do with any of their development?nah,but not to the extend you are making it out to be, and not for players like butler and gasol,rather for the lesser talented role players like ariza. If you do, I suggest you watch the Lakers championship DVD of this past year. When every single one of those players says the reason they worked so hard on their game, was because Kobe pushes them every day to get better.when being traded to a new team most players also say how they always wanted to play for that new team and how good of an opportunity that is, doesnt mean its the truth.