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D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 12:30 PM
i dont know if we have had a thread about this yet and if we have then take this down, but i wanna know who you guys think is the greatest European born basketball player of all time. if you vote for other, please name the person who you think is the best.

ChiSox219
09-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Dirk

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 12:39 PM
i would go between dirk and maybe drazen cause he never hit his prime and was killin it in the NBA. maybe though as well Toni Kukoc cause remember he didnt come to the NBA til like 5 years after he was drafted and past his prime.

JordansBulls
09-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Dirk, he was always in MVP talks.

Storch
09-09-2009, 12:46 PM
Regardless of how good Dirk is on offense, he doesnt beat Gasol's all around game. Gasol also has more accomplishments such as gold in both international and U.S. basketball. Hands down it goes to Pau Gasol.

Manu Ginobili could be in the discussion since argentina and the spurs dominated a few times.

Sorry Dirk fans but championships > other accomplishments.

69centers
09-09-2009, 12:50 PM
Not sure why Tony Parker's not on the list, but my vote is Dražen Petrović either way.

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 12:52 PM
Regardless of how good Dirk is on offense, he doesnt beat Gasol's all around game. Gasol also has more accomplishments such as gold in both international and U.S. basketball. Hands down it goes to Pau Gasol.

Manu Ginobili could be in the discussion since argentina and the spurs dominated a few times.

Sorry Dirk fans but championships > other accomplishments.

yeah i agree with manu. he is a beast, but he couldn't also be discussed in this category as well. i would of like to have seen how sabonis did in his prime in the NBA as well as Kukoc and if Petrovic life wasnt cut short as well.

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Not sure why Tony Parker's not on the list, but my vote is Dražen Petrović either way.

he could be considered as other as well just like manu. i just was in a rush to put this up and left a couple names off, but i just dont htink tony parker is all of that. i mean yes he won finals mvp and all, but i think its cause of manu and duncan and the deep bench they always seem to have that really makes that team go. he's good, but honestly i always have thought he was over rated, but thats my opinion.

ChitownbullsBG7
09-09-2009, 12:57 PM
Mikael Pietrus or Boris Diaw.

ChiSox219
09-09-2009, 12:58 PM
Isn't Manu Ginobli from Argentina?


Dirk is better than Gasol, gold and titles are a reflection of team talent and Gasol has played with better NBA and international talent that Dirk ever had.

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Isn't Manu Ginobli from Argentina?


Dirk is better than Gasol, gold and titles are a reflection of team talent and Gasol has played with better NBA and international talent that Dirk ever had.

yeah hes from argentina.

ChiSox219
09-09-2009, 01:10 PM
yeah hes from argentina.

So that disqualifies him from this discussion.

Reddd
09-09-2009, 01:15 PM
Christ...
First, it's Arvydas Sabonis(Arbinas???:laugh2:)
Second, someone mentioned Manu, are YOU KIDDING ME???
We are talking about European ballers and someone throws up a player from South-America??
Seriously,:pity:, a 2nd grader knows that Argentina isn't in Europe.
BTW it's Dirk, simply cause he is the only MVP ever from Europe

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 01:22 PM
So that disqualifies him from this discussion.

yeah thats true......

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 01:24 PM
Christ...
First, it's Arvydas Sabonis(Arbinas???:laugh2:)
Second, someone mentioned Manu, are YOU KIDDING ME???
We are talking about European ballers and someone throws up a player from South-America??
Seriously,:pity:, a 2nd grader knows that Argentina isn't in Europe.
BTW it's Dirk, simply cause he is the only MVP ever from Europe

man i didnt even look at how to spell his name, but i bet you did, lol so you cant laugh man. i bet you if you asked 99 percent of people on this site they wouldnt of spelled his name correctly without looking it up

Reddd
09-09-2009, 01:29 PM
man i didnt even look at how to spell his name, but i bet you did, lol so you cant laugh man. i bet you if you asked 99 percent of people on this site they wouldnt of spelled his name correctly without looking it up

Honest answer, I didn't look it up, I already knew it because I'm from Europe and he is one of the greatest European ballers ever,(such courtvision and passing ability), I've even seen him play in Europe, but like I said Dirk is the best.
So that means I have every right to laugh:)

Hawkeye15
09-09-2009, 01:30 PM
Dirk is the best player to come out of Europe, easy.
Sabonis may have been, but he came over past his prime.
Kukoc and Gasol are nice players, complementary players at most on championship teams
Drazen's career was cut too short, he could have been special.

And Manu is from South America, he can't count in this discussion. Unless the thread is changed to best foreign players.

FlakeyFool
09-09-2009, 01:30 PM
andrea bargnani

Reddd
09-09-2009, 01:33 PM
Dirk is the best player to come out of Europe, easy.
Sabonis may have been, but he came over past his prime.
Kukoc and Gasol are nice players, complementary players at most on championship teams
Drazen's career was cut too short, he could have been special.

And Manu is from South America, he can't count in this discussion. Unless the thread is changed to best foreign players.

I agree 100%

eugene
09-09-2009, 01:36 PM
Drazen Petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis. Petrovic played only 4 seasons in NBA, he had no time to prove his greatness. Sabonis for sure is the greatest European player of all time but came to the NBA at the age of 31 years and after devastating achilles injuries. Who saw this guy playing for the Soviet national team at his prime has no doubt he is the best...

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Dirk is the best player to come out of Europe, easy.
Sabonis may have been, but he came over past his prime.
Kukoc and Gasol are nice players, complementary players at most on championship teams
Drazen's career was cut too short, he could have been special.

And Manu is from South America, he can't count in this discussion. Unless the thread is changed to best foreign players.

true about sabonis, but he was still pretty damn good even when he was playing in the NBA. i mean the man was like in his 40's, smoking and still some what stoppin shaq, i mean some what cause no one could stop shaq.

Drazen was already special, i mean he was one of the best shooters in the NBA before his death and hadn't hit his prime yet even.

im not arguing with dirk, but i just remember watching drazen play against michael jordan and jordan had a hard time covering him and i never have seen jordan really have a hard time covering anyone before and also i never mentioned while playing in the NBA, i just said best euro bball player of all time. so that does not mean what they did in the NBA, but all together.

Silent
09-09-2009, 01:40 PM
Drazen Petrovic THIS GUY WAS A BEAST. HE DIED SO YOUNG

HE WOULDA SURPASSED DIRK IF HE WAS ALIVE

FOR ALL U YOUNG BUCKS CHECK ESPN CLASSIC FOR HIS GAMES AND U WILL SEE WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT

theuuord
09-09-2009, 01:40 PM
Dirk, Drazen, and Arvydas round out the top 3...

Reddd
09-09-2009, 01:49 PM
true about sabonis, but he was still pretty damn good even when he was playing in the NBA. i mean the man was like in his 40's, smoking and still some what stoppin shaq, i mean some what cause no one could stop shaq.

Drazen was already special, i mean he was one of the best shooters in the NBA before his death and hadn't hit his prime yet even.

im not arguing with dirk, but i just remember watching drazen play against michael jordan and jordan had a hard time covering him and i never have seen jordan really have a hard time covering anyone before and also i never mentioned while playing in the NBA, i just said best euro bball player of all time. so that does not mean what they did in the NBA, but all together.

Yea, Petrovic died in his prime, if he would've finished his career, I think he would've been the greatest ever from Europe.

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 01:49 PM
Drazen Petrovic THIS GUY WAS A BEAST. HE DIED SO YOUNG

HE WOULDA SURPASSED DIRK IF HE WAS ALIVE

FOR ALL U YOUNG BUCKS CHECK ESPN CLASSIC FOR HIS GAMES AND U WILL SEE WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT

just go on youtube. theres a bunch of clips of him.

LanceUpperCut
09-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Dirk without a doubt.

azkarraga
09-09-2009, 02:01 PM
On his prime? Sabonis.

bogdanrom
09-09-2009, 02:05 PM
I would go with Drazen Petrovic by a little over Dirk because he dies so young. Dirk has done some amazing things but the level that Drazen could have reached is unbelievable. He not only scored but did it so efficiently. Also we can't just count what they did in the NBA. You have to count what Drazen did in Europe. BTW he did score 112 points in a game once. Plus you have guys like Jordan and Drexler who praised Drazen for his play and competitiveness.

a3rodynamic
09-09-2009, 02:06 PM
I think Dirk's career/stats put him above and beyond any current or former Euro player.

But my Net's bias is gonna make me go with Drazen + his potential as the best ever.

And Tony Parker at least deserves to be on the list.

J-Relo
09-09-2009, 02:22 PM
man i didnt even look at how to spell his name, but i bet you did, lol so you cant laugh man. i bet you if you asked 99 percent of people on this site they wouldnt of spelled his name correctly without looking it up

:facepalm: man... :mad: how can you do it, write him in without checking, without capital letters... shame on you! :eyebrow: if you don't give any respect to him you are worth nothing, you and this tread... :facepalm:

ARVYDAS SABONIS was the best player from Europe. EVER.

Hawkeye15
09-09-2009, 03:33 PM
Not really getting how Drazen's potential to have a better career outweighs Dirk's actual great career. It is unfortunate he died in his prime, but no way did he string together the season's Dirk has. No international player has. This thread should start with, who is #2.
Sabonis was over the hill when he came here. He was still efficient, but I think some of you are underestimating Dirk. Former MVP, and a career 23/9 in over 800 games. There is no competition really.

Hawkeye15
09-09-2009, 03:35 PM
In fact, not only has Dirk had better career numbers all the way down the line, but he has the best single seasons as well. And the simple fact he was named MVP, the best player in the league, trumps everyone else.

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 07:23 PM
:facepalm: man... :mad: how can you do it, write him in without checking, without capital letters... shame on you! :eyebrow: if you don't give any respect to him you are worth nothing, you and this tread... :facepalm:

ARVYDAS SABONIS was the best player from Europe. EVER.

TREAD? oh you me an thread..... and see your gettin on me about spellin

:facepalm:

D Roses Bulls
09-09-2009, 07:26 PM
Not really getting how Drazen's potential to have a better career outweighs Dirk's actual great career. It is unfortunate he died in his prime, but no way did he string together the season's Dirk has. No international player has. This thread should start with, who is #2.
Sabonis was over the hill when he came here. He was still efficient, but I think some of you are underestimating Dirk. Former MVP, and a career 23/9 in over 800 games. There is no competition really.

see though thats the thing, i think drazen had more of a ceiling to reach. i dont think he had hit his prime yet, but i believe he was about too. i mean as someone else pointed out, you gotta look at the EURO numbers as well.

iHop
09-09-2009, 08:48 PM
Dirk Nowitzki

rockbottom2010
09-09-2009, 09:17 PM
its unanimous....dirk nowitzki.....put this poll up 5 years from now.....u will see more europeans by then.....oh ya u forgot one more player.....tony parker...how can u forget him....hes from france...

primetimekings
09-10-2009, 12:01 AM
where the **** is vlade divac man and if sabonis didnt get injured he would be the greatest ever.he was david robinson who could shoot and pass

rsweene
09-10-2009, 12:17 AM
Anyone who trains a 7-footer to become a jump shooter is an idiot. Dirk is amazing, but he hasnt done what pau did for memphis. Your replace the two in their careers and memphis wouldve moved again, to OKC! And maybe dallas wouldve won a ring, AND beat GSW

blah-blah
09-10-2009, 12:28 AM
Dirk easily

blah-blah
09-10-2009, 12:30 AM
Not really getting how Drazen's potential to have a better career outweighs Dirk's actual great career. It is unfortunate he died in his prime, but no way did he string together the season's Dirk has. No international player has. This thread should start with, who is #2.
Sabonis was over the hill when he came here. He was still efficient, but I think some of you are underestimating Dirk. Former MVP, and a career 23/9 in over 800 games. There is no competition really.

missing tony parker,manu ginobili and vlade divac

sciferguy
09-10-2009, 12:30 AM
ok so the debate is best european player. arvydas sabonis no doubt is. ask any euro who watches basketball and they will tell you he was phenomenal. he came to the nba past his prime and he was still running the table. no matter how dominate and young shaq was, old Arvydas still gave shaq a run for his money. DIRK PLAYED HIS WHOLE CAREER HERE AND HAD SOME REALLY GOOD SEASONS. HE NO DOUBT IS THE BEST EUROPEAN IN THE NBA. but he is not the best euro ever. and one of the last games sabonis played i watched this old man who just had huge bags of ice on his knees come off the bench and go coast to coast on everybody. the dude must have been amazing to watch in his prime.

JMKnick33
09-10-2009, 12:40 AM
I can't believe some of the arguments I've had on this site are against people who think that Argentina is in Europe. :facepalm:

Anyway, it's Dirk. Then Sabonis. Then Parker. Then Kukoc.

Dirk, carried his team to the Finals and is the only one on the list with an MVP award! Nuff said!

Sabonis, the greatest Euro player until Dirk came around.

Parker, from France, has a Final MVP (OVER TWO TIME MVP TIM DUNCAN). So that should be in BOLD. Not to mention 3 championships as well.

Kukoc, was a versatile player who could do it all. Had a 6th man of the year award. FIBA championship MVP award. Also had 3 NBA championships and was a 4x Mister Europa player of the year.

MrFastBreak
09-10-2009, 12:51 AM
this is redirkulous.

D Roses Bulls
09-10-2009, 01:07 AM
see now this is an actual debate, not that same crap i see some people posting in psd cause this has actually stirred pretty intelligent responses from everyone. the only thing thats been said dumb is bout argentina being in Europe but besides that this has gone real good

oh and to the people thta keep asking where vlade or parker or such, like i said in the beginning, i was in a rush, if you think parker is the best or vlade then vote for other and name who you voted for.

Oefarmy2005
09-10-2009, 01:12 AM
Regardless of how good Dirk is on offense, he doesnt beat Gasol's all around game. Gasol also has more accomplishments such as gold in both international and U.S. basketball. Hands down it goes to Pau Gasol.

Manu Ginobili could be in the discussion since argentina and the spurs dominated a few times.

Sorry Dirk fans but championships > other accomplishments.

Last I remember, Argentina is half-a-planet away from Europe.

AllTheWay
09-10-2009, 01:14 AM
Not really getting how Drazen's potential to have a better career outweighs Dirk's actual great career. It is unfortunate he died in his prime, but no way did he string together the season's Dirk has. No international player has. This thread should start with, who is #2.
Sabonis was over the hill when he came here. He was still efficient, but I think some of you are underestimating Dirk. Former MVP, and a career 23/9 in over 800 games. There is no competition really.

This. Without a doubt.

Oefarmy2005
09-10-2009, 01:17 AM
Dirk is an excellent player and an amazing scorer, but not much more than that. Sabonis on the other hand was a complete player with offense and defence. So I would say:

1. Sabonis
2. Dirk
3. Pau
4. Drazen
5. Parker
6. Kukoc

D Roses Bulls
09-10-2009, 01:23 AM
Dirk is an excellent player and an amazing scorer, but not much more than that. Sabonis on the other hand was a complete player with offense and defence. So I would say:

1. Sabonis
2. Dirk
3. Pau
4. Drazen
5. Parker
6. Kukoc

see i said drazen cause he is one of the best pure shooters i have ever seen and i think he would of been an all star and a very good player in this league if his life wasnt cut short and the video i have seen of him when he was in europe just made me go wow, but i cant argue with sabonis being number one cause he was a beast before he came to the nba, but pau over drazen, i dont know bout

Mavrix
09-10-2009, 01:26 AM
Why is this thread still even open?

Ace33Bone
09-10-2009, 11:01 AM
Drazen would have been the best player if it was not for the accident and he is my personal fav so I went with him I heard Sabonis was great in his hay day but Dirk probably will go down as the greatest to this day

Hawkeye15
09-10-2009, 11:17 AM
missing tony parker,manu ginobili and vlade divac

no need to add any of them right now.
Vlade was the king of flop, and played with great teams that underachieved. I swear I saw him on the bench smoking a cigarette once.
Ginoboli and Parker are great players, but neither is the lead dog on their team, and statistically, neither has touched Dirk. Parker is still youngish, but Dirk is head and shoulders above any international player, to play.
Plus, the thread states Euro, of which Manu comes from South America, but that is nitpicking

69centers
09-11-2009, 12:08 PM
Not really getting how Drazen's potential to have a better career outweighs Dirk's actual great career. It is unfortunate he died in his prime, but no way did he string together the season's Dirk has. No international player has. This thread should start with, who is #2.
Sabonis was over the hill when he came here. He was still efficient, but I think some of you are underestimating Dirk. Former MVP, and a career 23/9 in over 800 games. There is no competition really.

The thread topic says "best player" not best career, best stats, best achievements. Drazen was a more talented player on the court than Dirk. PERIOD. Even at 4 seasons, one could easily see this. Please, as others have suggested, go watch some film of Drazen.

Tom81
09-11-2009, 12:27 PM
Dirk

Hawkeye15
09-11-2009, 01:19 PM
The thread topic says "best player" not best career, best stats, best achievements. Drazen was a more talented player on the court than Dirk. PERIOD. Even at 4 seasons, one could easily see this. Please, as others have suggested, go watch some film of Drazen.

I, unlike many of the posters here, am old enough, that I watched him play when he was active.
How does Drazen's best season, at 22/2/4, even compare to Dirks career average, let alone his last 5 seasons at 25/9/3? Dirk was MVP of the league in 2006. Even Drazen's best season doesn't even match up to Dirk's career averages, which factor in those pesky rookie numbers, and 2nd year.

There is no international player who has had a better single year than Dirk, a better career than Dirk, or more effect on his team than Dirk.

This is a pretty simple argument. If we are talking about who is the best international player to play in the NBA, and his NBA numbers, career, years, etc, it starts and ends with Dirk.

bogdanrom
09-11-2009, 01:45 PM
The question asks who is the best European basketball player of all time. Not who is the best European NBA player. Yes Dirk's NBA career is better than Drazen. But if you add international competition and Drazen's years in Europe the comparison becomes a lot closer and even in my opinion in favor of Drazen.

gmac2824
09-11-2009, 02:14 PM
Sabonis was the best European baller, just not the best European baller to play in the NBA considering he joined the NBA later in his career. He is the best passing big man ever. Check out his old highlights I'm sure they're on YouTube

Preuss-is-right
09-11-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm suprised Sarunas Marciulionis hasnt gotten any love. He was half-*** decent?

Hands down though it's Dirk and Sabonis.

Mr.SmackYoMama
09-11-2009, 02:26 PM
Tony parker!!!!!!!!!!

Preuss-is-right
09-11-2009, 02:27 PM
Add Detlef Schrempf to the list he was awesome.

Mr.SmackYoMama
09-11-2009, 02:32 PM
Gheorghe Muresan

Tha 7'7" beast from da east!!!!

jimbobjarree
09-11-2009, 03:03 PM
its obviously Kosta Koufos

J-Relo
09-11-2009, 03:23 PM
TREAD? oh you me an thread..... and see your gettin on me about spellin

:facepalm:

oh dear oh dear oh dear i missed a letter :eyebrow: happens... happens when writting fast, etc... maybe am not great at spelling, maybe because english isn't my native language? but i can't be worse than you :facepalm:

also it's a totally different situation... one thing is to spell some kind of word wrong and other is to spell great player's name totally wrong, disrespect him, and after that just make somekind of joke ->>> i'm so smart that i even didn't check it though I knew I'm writting wrong :facepalm:

if you are a basketball fan you should respect all good basketball players, now it looks like you are just a ***** who knows nothing about it...

J-Relo
09-11-2009, 03:31 PM
I, unlike many of the posters here, am old enough, that I watched him play when he was active.
How does Drazen's best season, at 22/2/4, even compare to Dirks career average, let alone his last 5 seasons at 25/9/3? Dirk was MVP of the league in 2006. Even Drazen's best season doesn't even match up to Dirk's career averages, which factor in those pesky rookie numbers, and 2nd year.

There is no international player who has had a better single year than Dirk, a better career than Dirk, or more effect on his team than Dirk.

This is a pretty simple argument. If we are talking about who is the best international player to play in the NBA, and his NBA numbers, career, years, etc, it starts and ends with Dirk.

you misunderstood, the question is WHO was/is the BEST EUROPEAN PLAYER?

nothing about NBA... Yes, nba career counts in, but it's not all about it... f.e. Sabonis spent his prime playing in europe and came to NBA only after it, he still played good, but we just can't compare Dirk's NBA achievements to Sabonis' achievements here... you should at least take into account all the national team appearances

Giaps
09-11-2009, 04:07 PM
Dirk by a mile. The real question should be who is 2nd best and keep Dirk out of it.

tugboat424
09-11-2009, 04:32 PM
Gregor Fučka

Taimla
09-11-2009, 04:54 PM
It would been Sabonis if he would been longer in NBA, but i have to say Dirk, he is amazing.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Drazen had the potential to be the greatest European of all time.

Hawkeye15
09-11-2009, 05:00 PM
you misunderstood, the question is WHO was/is the BEST EUROPEAN PLAYER?

nothing about NBA... Yes, nba career counts in, but it's not all about it... f.e. Sabonis spent his prime playing in europe and came to NBA only after it, he still played good, but we just can't compare Dirk's NBA achievements to Sabonis' achievements here... you should at least take into account all the national team appearances

Drazen played against far weaker competition, as did Sabonis, Kukoc, etc. You should take that into consideration as well. The international game didn't gain momentum as far as catching the NBA skillwise or plain old basketball wise until early this decade.
And I base it on the NBA. It is the best league in the world, and Dirk has done the best in that league.
So Dirk should be penalized for coming over at 19, and playing in a far tougher league than any of the said players did? doesn't make sense to me

Hawkeye15
09-11-2009, 05:03 PM
Dirk came over at 19. he did not have the opportunity to play against the Euroleauge year round in his prime, like pretty much all the others listed in contention. Also factor in that international competition, and international basketball was not anywhere near the level it is today, back in the 80's and 90's. We sent college kids to play Euro national teams until 1992, and were able to beat them. And by 1992, Drazen was already here.
So if you want the best Euroleague player, I can't help, cause I could care less. Currently, there are some Euro teams that could conceivably play vs NBA teams. 20 years ago, that is laughable.

MackSnackWrap
09-11-2009, 05:10 PM
why no Toney Parker?

MackSnackWrap
09-11-2009, 05:10 PM
I went with Dirk, Pau not to far behind

mlisica19
09-11-2009, 05:14 PM
Dirk but Drazen close 2nd.

Taimla
09-11-2009, 05:25 PM
I went with Dirk, Pau not to far behind

why is Pau even in the talks? Sabonis and Drazen are waay better...
IMO Tony Parker has been and is right now better player then Pau.

blastmasta26
09-11-2009, 05:30 PM
Dirk. Been an MVP and has carried his team to the Finals. Couldn't win it, but he is still very talented.

D Roses Bulls
09-11-2009, 05:44 PM
oh dear oh dear oh dear i missed a letter :eyebrow: happens... happens when writting fast, etc... maybe am not great at spelling, maybe because english isn't my native language? but i can't be worse than you :facepalm:

also it's a totally different situation... one thing is to spell some kind of word wrong and other is to spell great player's name totally wrong, disrespect him, and after that just make somekind of joke ->>> i'm so smart that i even didn't check it though I knew I'm writting wrong :facepalm:

if you are a basketball fan you should respect all good basketball players, now it looks like you are just a ***** who knows nothing about it...

lmao..... you are gettin way to sensitive about this man. i was only playing around with you. god you euros are sensitive i swear. oh and please dont ever question my knowledge about basketball. go back and look at my threads from the past and the predictions i have made or the statements i have made and see who knows more about basketball. so what if i didnt know how to spell sabonis's first name without looking it up, and thats not disrespecting him. are you his kid or something? cause your taking this too damn personal for real and actually you know what im not in the best of mood right now so you really wanna get on me? fine, ill even get at your dad some more. if sabonis was so great and i know he came to the NBA past his prime then why didn't the blazers beat the lakers in the WCF when they has, sabonis, pippen, wallace, wells, stoudemire, and the rest of the whip they had? what, sabonis like vlade couldn't flop his way out of that too? give me a break man and calm down and stop tryna be an internet bully cause those guys just make me laugh.

D Roses Bulls
09-11-2009, 05:50 PM
Drazen played against far weaker competition, as did Sabonis, Kukoc, etc. You should take that into consideration as well. The international game didn't gain momentum as far as catching the NBA skillwise or plain old basketball wise until early this decade.
And I base it on the NBA. It is the best league in the world, and Dirk has done the best in that league.
So Dirk should be penalized for coming over at 19, and playing in a far tougher league than any of the said players did? doesn't make sense to me

yeah that is true as well what you said. i mean the dream team played around and average margin of victory was like 43 points. the only argument i will give you and its not much of a one is drazen did play in the nba when the defense was a lot tougher and better and like you said averaged 22 points a game and didnt even hit his prime yet. i mean dirk averaged his what? 28 or 27 vs. defenses where you couldnt hand check or really play all that physical. but i mean we should really never know though cause drazen never reached his full potential

Evolution23
09-11-2009, 06:31 PM
its dirk obviously

mrblisterdundee
09-11-2009, 08:36 PM
Tony Parker is the only player on that list with three rings to back up his case of being the best.

GeorgeMcCloud21
09-11-2009, 08:56 PM
Tony Parker ain't bad.....Sabonis was fun to watch..

But this is hands down Nowitzki
Dirk is truly one of the most unique players in NBA history
No one at his size can hit as many threes as he has plus playing with Nash & Kidd always put him in a situation to score big and therefore I think he is one of the best 7-footers ever.

Storch
09-11-2009, 09:34 PM
I stand corrected, manu ginobili is not from europe. Tony parker is tho.

iggypop123
09-12-2009, 12:10 AM
petrovic, but sabonis was amazing in his prime. he was already down when he came to the US

T-Wolf
09-12-2009, 04:31 AM
Vlade Divac

Sportfan
09-12-2009, 09:29 AM
Dirk hands down

nbaguy123
09-12-2009, 09:41 AM
dirk

albertc86
09-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Wow. I'm shocked by the results thus far. Sabonis is getting no love. Not knocking your guys' basketball history but you do know Sabonis was a great player in Europe, right? The NBA received an old, injured and worn down Sabonis. The guy would've been scary had he entered the NBA in his prime. His game was comparable to Hakeem's minus the defensive abilities.

_KB24_
09-12-2009, 09:03 PM
Dirk for now......

Parker in a couple of years.

bbcmillionaire
09-12-2009, 09:05 PM
lol screw you guys we're talking rings so kukoc. lmao i know he had mike but he was effective

RaptorizedKevin
09-13-2009, 12:42 AM
this thread should be " best internation basketball player of all time"thats what i think yu meant. cause some people are considering manu and stuff.

blastmasta26
09-13-2009, 12:45 AM
Tony Parker is the only player on that list with three rings to back up his case of being the best.
Tony Parker is also the only one who had Duncan and Ginobili for those 3 championships.

jaysfan4ever
09-13-2009, 01:10 AM
Remind me why we're talking about the POTENTIAL of a guy who was almost 29 years old when he died? To make this even, all you had to do was compare Drazen when he was alive to Dirk a couple years ago.

But, I've never seen this guy play, so I dunno if he's better than Dirk.

jaysfan4ever
09-13-2009, 01:15 AM
this thread should be " best internation basketball player of all time"thats what i think yu meant. cause some people are considering manu and stuff.

Then Hakeem Olajuwon would win it. :P

Keep it Euro.

cubfan23
09-13-2009, 01:22 AM
I'm suprised Sarunas Marciulionis hasnt gotten any love. He was half-*** decent?

Hands down though it's Dirk and Sabonis.

awesome reference. I'm Lithuanian and remember having his basketball card when I was younger, i even named a my fav stuffed animal after his last name lol....but anyways I don't want to sound biased but like many others have said Sabonis was such a beast. Here was him when he went up against David Robinson in international competition....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwuNWNSgeQ

I know you could post any great video clip from the players above and say they are just as good but Sabonis did great. Like you guys said it was a shame he came over so late in his career but he put up great numbers.

MackShock
09-13-2009, 01:26 AM
dirk is hands down. pau could not lead the griz out of the first round until he was traded. at least dirk got to the finals. he did have a better support cast but still, he has better numbers and IMO deserves a title. when he gets that title he will be the best euro player undisputed.

cubfan23
09-13-2009, 01:36 AM
I remember reading about Petrovic and his tragic story awhile ago but googled his name again and read his wiki and then it goes to give a link to an espn article with the creator of NBA Jam and read the last question....pretty crazy stuff.....
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3668922

jaysfan4ever
09-13-2009, 01:37 AM
I, unlike many of the posters here, am old enough, that I watched him play when he was active.
How does Drazen's best season, at 22/2/4, even compare to Dirks career average, let alone his last 5 seasons at 25/9/3? Dirk was MVP of the league in 2006. Even Drazen's best season doesn't even match up to Dirk's career averages, which factor in those pesky rookie numbers, and 2nd year.

There is no international player who has had a better single year than Dirk, a better career than Dirk, or more effect on his team than Dirk.

This is a pretty simple argument. If we are talking about who is the best international player to play in the NBA, and his NBA numbers, career, years, etc, it starts and ends with Dirk.

You are missing one thing, though. Petrovic had back to back years of 50%+ FG%, and 44%+ 3PT%, which is pretty phenomenal for a guy who's taking mostly jump shots.

It's really hard to compare a pure shooter like Drazen to a freak of nature like Dirk.

Lakersfan2483
09-13-2009, 01:46 AM
Dirk Nowitzki

Lakersfan2483
09-13-2009, 01:49 AM
Dirk is the best player to come out of Europe, easy. Sabonis may have been, but he came over past his prime.
Kukoc and Gasol are nice players, complementary players at most on championship teams
Drazen's career was cut too short, he could have been special.

And Manu is from South America, he can't count in this discussion. Unless the thread is changed to best foreign players.

:clap:

cmellofan15
09-13-2009, 10:00 AM
manu ginobili :laugh:

he doesn't even quallify as overseas

ink
09-13-2009, 04:04 PM
Dirk or Tony Parker. I'm surprised Tony Kukoc doesn't get more love.

smith&wesson
09-13-2009, 04:47 PM
YOU ALL FAIL.

his name is Pete Maravich aka pistol pete and his antcestry is serbian.

and dirk would come in second.

D Roses Bulls
09-13-2009, 04:54 PM
Then Hakeem Olajuwon would win it. :P

Keep it Euro.

oh maybe even tim duncan since technically he is from the virgin islands

smith&wesson
09-13-2009, 05:04 PM
PEOPLE WHO I THINK SHOULD HAVE MADE THE POLL LIST.

dominique wilkins was born in france. (he is definatly top three in this thread.

carlos boozer was born in germany ( dont know how he was able to play for usa, but he was definatly born in germany.

biedrins is from Latvia

zydrunas iigauskas is from Luthuania

andrei kirilenko is russian

calderon, rudy fernandez, sergio rodriguez are all from spain.

hedo turkoglu is from turky

okur is also from turky, turky is in europe

ben gordon born in england

*Superman*
09-13-2009, 05:17 PM
Kobe hands down.

kjoke
09-13-2009, 05:21 PM
Ricky Rubio

Hawkeye15
09-13-2009, 05:31 PM
You are missing one thing, though. Petrovic had back to back years of 50%+ FG%, and 44%+ 3PT%, which is pretty phenomenal for a guy who's taking mostly jump shots.

It's really hard to compare a pure shooter like Drazen to a freak of nature like Dirk.

but there is no comparison. Drazen was a one dimensional player, a scorer. Dirk is a far more accomplished all around player. With longevity, and flat out better seasons than Drazen ever had

Really, this convo needs to start at who is #2. Dirk came over at 19- and turned into an MVP, and is the best non American player to ever play in the NBA, easily.

Hawkeye15
09-13-2009, 05:33 PM
Remind me why we're talking about the POTENTIAL of a guy who was almost 29 years old when he died? To make this even, all you had to do was compare Drazen when he was alive to Dirk a couple years ago.

But, I've never seen this guy play, so I dunno if he's better than Dirk.

Drazen was not. He was a mix of Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen, somewhere right in the middle. Not quite Ray Allen, but a little better than Rip.
Dirk is a freakin MVP. He was the best player in the world for a year. That, and his longevity of great numbers on a good team trump anything any other player listed here brings to the table.

DMOB23
09-13-2009, 05:40 PM
And isnt tony parker from france?

Hawkeye15
09-13-2009, 06:44 PM
And isnt tony parker from france?

yep. But he doesnt belong in the same conversation as Dirk. Parker is the 2nd, possibly the 3rd, banana for his team. He doesn't have the stats to match Dirk. Now, if he were on a team where he was the #1 guy, he may. But he isn't.

smith&wesson
09-13-2009, 07:08 PM
yep. But he doesnt belong in the same conversation as Dirk. Parker is the 2nd, possibly the 3rd, banana for his team. He doesn't have the stats to match Dirk. Now, if he were on a team where he was the #1 guy, he may. But he isn't.


no ?? but arbinas sabonis ??

D-Will4Prez
09-13-2009, 07:10 PM
...Hakeem.

EDIT: oh Euro I misread the title. Dirk and then Parker fo sho.

MrFastBreak
09-13-2009, 08:43 PM
andrea bargnani


:)

MrFastBreak
09-13-2009, 08:46 PM
:facepalm: man... :mad: how can you do it, write him in without checking, without capital letters... shame on you! :eyebrow: if you don't give any respect to him you are worth nothing, you and this tread... :facepalm:

ARVYDAS SABONIS was the best player from Europe. EVER.

Yes! :rock:

ink
09-13-2009, 08:48 PM
carlos boozer was born in germany ( dont know how he was able to play for usa, but he was definatly born in germany.


Easy. His dad was stationed at a US Military base in Aschaffenburg, West Germany. Lots of American, English and Canadian kids were born on military bases in Germany since WWII. Army brats. :)

_KB24_
09-13-2009, 08:49 PM
Drazen was not. He was a mix of Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen, somewhere right in the middle. Not quite Ray Allen, but a little better than Rip.
Dirk is a freakin MVP. He was the best player in the world for a year. That, and his longevity of great numbers on a good team trump anything any other player listed here brings to the table.

I'm pretty sure it is a "Most Valuable Player" award not "best player in the world".:rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
09-13-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm pretty sure it is a "Most Valuable Player" award not "best player in the world".:rolleyes:

not to sound like an arrogant american, but if you are named MVP on the NBA, it makes you the best player in the world that year. The NBA is the top league, hence the best international players on the planet playing in the NBA. The best players in the world, are in the NBA.

123heyho
09-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Mikael Pietrus or Boris Diaw.

Yea ok...

123heyho
09-13-2009, 10:17 PM
As much as I hate to say it, probably Dirk...

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 10:29 PM
i would go between dirk and maybe drazen cause he never hit his prime and was killin it in the NBA. maybe though as well Toni Kukoc cause remember he didnt come to the NBA til like 5 years after he was drafted and past his prime.

Did you not read your own thread? "Best European basketball player of all time?" You didn't say potential, you said greatest of all time... This thread should be removed... it's like making a thread asking... which country produces the best basketball players... it a simple question...

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 10:31 PM
Dirk, he was always in MVP talks.

Not to mention.... he IS a former MVP... He was drafted 2 years after Kobe and was an MVP 1 year before him too...

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 10:50 PM
Regardless of how good Dirk is on offense, he doesnt beat Gasol's all around game. Gasol also has more accomplishments such as gold in both international and U.S. basketball. Hands down it goes to Pau Gasol.

Manu Ginobili could be in the discussion since argentina and the spurs dominated a few times.

Sorry Dirk fans but championships > other accomplishments.

You're such an idiot. First of all, championships do not reflect individual skill sets, it reflects TEAM accomplishments. With your logic (I use the term loosely) Manu Ginoboli is "better" than Gasol, hands down. Manu has an olympic gold medal (as well), Olympic MVP, a gold FIBA medal, and 3 NBA championship rings!!!

Secondly, that doesn't make him the best european player of all time either. Dirk Nowitzki was made MVP of the greatest basketball league in the world. Do you think Gasol and Ginobili are capable of doing that? Nope... What was Gasol doing in Memphis before he got traded for a happy meal to the Lakers? I rest my case dumb fug... Oh what's that you say? "His team in Memphis sucked, so that's not fair..." Yeah, so lets leave the teammates out of it and just focus on individual achievements.

Thirdly, Manu is from Argentina. You probably failed geography, but that is in South America.

Lastly, if Dallas called up L.A. and wanted to trade Nowitzki for Gasol, do you honestly think Laker fans would be like "NOOOOOOOO!! GASOL IS BETTER?!" Do you think the Lakers would be that stupid to NOT want to do the trade? Bah, go slit your wrists.

NiTEFuRY
09-13-2009, 10:58 PM
Darrkkkoooooooooo

Just kidding, I voted for Dirk.
That 7' beast makes those turn around j's look easy.

bahama0811
09-13-2009, 10:58 PM
Dirk

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 11:03 PM
true about sabonis, but he was still pretty damn good even when he was playing in the NBA. i mean the man was like in his 40's, smoking and still some what stoppin shaq, i mean some what cause no one could stop shaq.

Drazen was already special, i mean he was one of the best shooters in the NBA before his death and hadn't hit his prime yet even.

im not arguing with dirk, but i just remember watching drazen play against michael jordan and jordan had a hard time covering him and i never have seen jordan really have a hard time covering anyone before and also i never mentioned while playing in the NBA, i just said best euro bball player of all time. so that does not mean what they did in the NBA, but all together.

The thing is, you can't compare their accomplishments in their country's league or even in euro basketball. Why? Because the NBA has the best players in the world. Not just the best, but even our mediocre guys are substantially better than most other country's best player(s). That's like saying some kid who scored 30 ppg in high school is probably just as good as Dwayne Wade. Well, high school and the NBA are completely different in terms of skill.

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 11:07 PM
Drazen Petrovic THIS GUY WAS A BEAST. HE DIED SO YOUNG

HE WOULDA SURPASSED DIRK IF HE WAS ALIVE

FOR ALL U YOUNG BUCKS CHECK ESPN CLASSIC FOR HIS GAMES AND U WILL SEE WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT

Yeah, had Dirk DID not missed a free throw at the end of a playoff game, Dallas probably would have won the 2006 NBA championship.

Okay, but Dirk DID MISS so he's not an NBA champion. Neither is Petrovic the best european player of all time. It's just your opinion, even as your opinion, he definitely would not have ever became NBA MVP. Sorry...

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 11:08 PM
I think Dirk's career/stats put him above and beyond any current or former Euro player.

But my Net's bias is gonna make me go with Drazen + his potential as the best ever.

And Tony Parker at least deserves to be on the list.

:clap: I applaud your honestly and ability to see your own biases.

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 11:21 PM
Dirk is an excellent player and an amazing scorer, but not much more than that. Sabonis on the other hand was a complete player with offense and defence. So I would say:

1. Sabonis
2. Dirk
3. Pau
4. Drazen
5. Parker
6. Kukoc

Yeah, Dirk's MVP year was a fluke. Forget that he is an efficient scorer, having career averages of 47%+ FG, 37%+ 3PT, 87% FT, all while scoring 22+ ppg... forget that he also has career averages of 8.6 rpg, 2.4 apg (not to mention excellent ball handling skills for a 7 footer) about 1 block and 1 steal a game. What else does he do? Nothing more than that!

Man, those career averages suck... Dirk shouldn't even be in the discussion.

Illuminati999
09-13-2009, 11:25 PM
The thread topic says "best player" not best career, best stats, best achievements. Drazen was a more talented player on the court than Dirk. PERIOD. Even at 4 seasons, one could easily see this. Please, as others have suggested, go watch some film of Drazen.

If shooting volume/efficiently, excellent ball handling skills, excellent passing skills, averaging a block and steal a game, and winning an NBA MVP award DOESN'T count/attribute someone as being the best european player, WHAT THE FUG DOES?!?! Jesus Christ.... how do you judge someone as such?!

214boyz
09-13-2009, 11:45 PM
Dirk! Team wins championship not "I" so the gasol over dirk should stop! The only European MVP player

Hellcrooner
09-13-2009, 11:59 PM
The Funny thing is there are some players that never made the jump because it was not so easy back then specially on the comunist countrys.........

Theres a yugoslavian dude on the 70s that was like GOD.


To answer the question is

as skill set NO ONE is even close to Dratzen if he had kept alive he woudl ahve come second dud eint he league only behind Jordan and i know what i talk about i have seen him Live live as in the COURT when he played or Real Madrid.

as for career for the moment is dirk.


BUt dear hawkeye whati two three years add mor rings to pau as SECOND option not "complymentary player"

And watch dirk sulk.

and by the way Pau, Arvydas, Divac, Parker, Marciulonis, SCHREMPF!!!!!, RIk Smits al had BETTER allaround skill sets than Dirk.

BUt the dude is a stud scorer and americans love stud scorers.

Like people really consider Arenas a star wen he is S H I T

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:02 AM
You're such an idiot. First of all, championships do not reflect individual skill sets, it reflects TEAM accomplishments. With your logic (I use the term loosely) Manu Ginoboli is "better" than Gasol, hands down. Manu has an olympic gold medal (as well), Olympic MVP, a gold FIBA medal, and 3 NBA championship rings!!!

Secondly, that doesn't make him the best european player of all time either. Dirk Nowitzki was made MVP of the greatest basketball league in the world. Do you think Gasol and Ginobili are capable of doing that? Nope... What was Gasol doing in Memphis before he got traded for a happy meal to the Lakers? I rest my case dumb fug... Oh what's that you say? "His team in Memphis sucked, so that's not fair..." Yeah, so lets leave the teammates out of it and just focus on individual achievements.

Thirdly, Manu is from Argentina. You probably failed geography, but that is in South America.

Lastly, if Dallas called up L.A. and wanted to trade Nowitzki for Gasol, do you honestly think Laker fans would be like "NOOOOOOOO!! GASOL IS BETTER?!" Do you think the Lakers would be that stupid to NOT want to do the trade? Bah, go slit your wrists.Please do dthat trade and lets laugh when dirk can get along with kobe and his game sufffers because of the lack of touches while dallas makes more or less the same record s they do with pau as leader....

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:10 AM
by the way for score lovers

was Tom Chambers beter than Kevin Mchale?


He he was the leader of sonics and suns for some time and he scored much more than Mchale who was jsut second or thrid banana on the celtics :p

Who was better Alex English with his lots of scoring titles and leading the nuggets or Second banana not so high scorer JOE DUMARS.?


etc etc.

Thanks god with the pass of time the David THompsons, English, Aguirres etc etc get completely forgotten whiel the good players even if they wernet scorers ( or more exactly BALL HOGS) Like Mchale, Worhty, Dumar, Stockton etc etc live forver on the books and the minds of fans decades after,

Spurred1
09-14-2009, 12:19 AM
Hellcrooner-
Your undying passion for Gasol is touching,yet profoundly disturbing at times. Gasol is a hell of a player, but he is an ideal second banana,not a primary option. Realistically, if Kobe had to miss much of the season, how well do you think the Lakers would fare?

Toenail Clipper
09-14-2009, 12:26 AM
Dirkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:42 AM
Hellcrooner-
Your undying passion for Gasol is touching,yet profoundly disturbing at times. Gasol is a hell of a player, but he is an ideal second banana,not a primary option. Realistically, if Kobe had to miss much of the season, how well do you think the Lakers would fare?


around 50 wins and second round.


by the way dirk will most probably need to become "second banana" to get a title in teh future.


and i woudl have loved to see dirk on the grizzlies team qnd pau on that mavs teams and see what happens.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2009, 12:08 PM
The Funny thing is there are some players that never made the jump because it was not so easy back then specially on the comunist countrys.........

Theres a yugoslavian dude on the 70s that was like GOD.


To answer the question is

as skill set NO ONE is even close to Dratzen if he had kept alive he woudl ahve come second dud eint he league only behind Jordan and i know what i talk about i have seen him Live live as in the COURT when he played or Real Madrid.

as for career for the moment is dirk.


BUt dear hawkeye whati two three years add mor rings to pau as SECOND option not "complymentary player"

And watch dirk sulk.

and by the way Pau, Arvydas, Divac, Parker, Marciulonis, SCHREMPF!!!!!, RIk Smits al had BETTER allaround skill sets than Dirk.

BUt the dude is a stud scorer and americans love stud scorers.

Like people really consider Arenas a star wen he is S H I T

Pau is not, and won't be, as good as Dirk. You continue to throw your spanish bias out on that one. That topic has been covered. Not sure what your beef with Dirk is. A career 23/9 player, 26/9 thru his prime, of which he is still in, an MVP, and constant All NBA team player. I could care less about pure scorers, of which Drazen was brother. The others you listed, haha, okay.
You have had a problem with Dirk for a while, so I take your post on this with a grain of salt at best.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:13 PM
I have a problem with the Arenas, Iversons, Alex Enlgish, adrian Dantley, Zach Randolph, Dirk Nowitzkys , Rick Barrys, Elgyn Baylors etc etc etc

Shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoottt oh looke ow much do i score dont look how much i shoot just how much i score type.

GIve Me Stocktons, Mchales, DUmars, Duncans, Pippens etc etc etc

Hawkeye15
09-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Please do dthat trade and lets laugh when dirk can get along with kobe and his game sufffers because of the lack of touches while dallas makes more or less the same record s they do with pau as leader....

haha, do you honestly think the Lakers wouldn't be better with Dirk over Pau? Dude, you need to get off Pau's junk. He is a 18/9 player, at best, with soft defense. He is not capable of taking over games on a nightly basis, and relies on guardplay to look good. He is a 2nd tier PF, and you are comparing him to a superstar, who won the MVP

Hawkeye15
09-14-2009, 12:15 PM
I have a problem with the Arenas, Iversons, Alex Enlgish, adrian Dantley, Zach Randolph, Dirk Nowitzkys , Rick Barrys, Elgyn Baylors etc etc etc

Shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoottt oh looke ow much do i score dont look how much i shoot just how much i score type.

GIve Me Stocktons, Mchales, DUmars, Duncans, Pippens etc etc etc

you do realize that Dirk is a 47/37/87 shooter for his career, correct? he is a very efficient scorer.
Done arguing this with you man. Your spanish bias knows absolutely no boundries.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:21 PM
soft defene?

i guess we watched a different finals this years.

Its a joke peopl still cal lhim soft after DESTROYING on d mr superman.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:22 PM
and by the way you dont really want to enter a conversation about being soft if youre deffening jumper king im afraid of the rim dirk.


nor shoudl we talk bout court vission

passing ablilty


basket Iq.

post moves.

REBOUNDING.


Efficiency

etc etc etc.


Whats paus percentage again?


How much MORE SHOTS does dirk take a year?

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:25 PM
and by they way who woudl you preffer passing you the ball in terms of receiving more shots and better quality passes?

Nash and Kidd or Chocolate and Fisher.....

Hawkeye15
09-14-2009, 12:32 PM
I would take Dirk over Pau anyday of the week, all year long. Its really that simple. And so would the Lakers organization I am sure. But, that is why these boards are fun. We get to see fans who are usually intelligent, become very questionable when their bias kicks in.
Pau is a 2nd tier PF, someone who is incapable of leading a team. Dirk is an MVP on one of the best teams in the last 8 years. Pretty simple

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:45 PM
yeah yeah put dirk in charge of Chocolate the turnovoer wonder shane im too shy to shoot Stromile second pick in worst draft ever swift damon i only care for mysefl stoudamire james oh od how i laugh at mi overrated salary posey bonzi China mvp etc and see if he leads them to trhee playoffs and two 50 wins seasons,

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 12:48 PM
the truth is hawkeye i BOTH of them are future hall of famers.

Hawkeye15
09-14-2009, 01:03 PM
yeah yeah put dirk in charge of Chocolate the turnovoer wonder shane im too shy to shoot Stromile second pick in worst draft ever swift damon i only care for mysefl stoudamire james oh od how i laugh at mi overrated salary posey bonzi China mvp etc and see if he leads them to trhee playoffs and two 50 wins seasons,

Stromile, haha, god what a waste.
Gotta admit, Jason did have some sweet no looks. Sometimes to a fan or the other team, but they looked great on ESPN

smith&wesson
09-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Easy. His dad was stationed at a US Military base in Aschaffenburg, West Germany. Lots of American, English and Canadian kids were born on military bases in Germany since WWII. Army brats. :)

thats pretty cool, i didnt know that.. so the man was born in the middle of a war basically.. thats crazy.

Hellcrooner
09-14-2009, 01:09 PM
The whole Swift Draft class was a waste.

I think only 1980 or 1986 may be worst.

albertc86
09-16-2009, 11:29 AM
I think Sabonis in his prime would make Dirk look like a punk. I'm still ashamed that he [Sabonis] doesn't have more votes. However, if I knew nothing of his history before entering the NBA, I wouldn't rank him very high either.

Mr.ATLHawks
09-16-2009, 11:56 AM
dirk nowitski being the best anything besides, the best 7 foot jumpshooter = a joke, like his MVP trophy, a joke. Sabonis, the Russian Yao Ming, was a beast...knee injuries really hit him hard. my vote goes to Drazen, best all around player...Nowitski has been good for what...6-7 years...If we are saying Dirk is the best ever to come out of Europe then that doesnt say a whole lot about Europes B Ball talent level...

Mr.ATLHawks
09-16-2009, 12:00 PM
soft defene?

i guess we watched a different finals this years.

Its a joke peopl still cal lhim soft after DESTROYING on d mr superman.


Not to downplay your man or anything but Superman isnt exactly an offensive juggernaut.....He can make Varajeo and slow footed Ilgauskas look bad but is that saying alot? Pau throws his hands around nicely on D, he isnt an above average defender but I wouldnt call him poor. All the Europeans with exception of AK-47 play pretty much the same level of defense..

heatbb
09-16-2009, 12:01 PM
dirk nowitski being the best anything besides, the best 7 foot jumpshooter = a joke, like his MVP trophy, a joke. Sabonis, the Russian Yao Ming, was a beast...knee injuries really hit him hard. my vote goes to Drazen, best all around player...Nowitski has been good for what...6-7 years...If we are saying Dirk is the best ever to come out of Europe then that doesnt say a whole lot about Europes B Ball talent level...
By what measures are they joke?? Try to block his jumpshot and he makes it anyway.


You know it's very offending to anyone from the former USSR. :mad: Get your facts straight.

Mr.ATLHawks
09-16-2009, 12:07 PM
I would take Dirk over Pau anyday of the week, all year long. Its really that simple. And so would the Lakers organization I am sure. But, that is why these boards are fun. We get to see fans who are usually intelligent, become very questionable when their bias kicks in.
Pau is a 2nd tier PF, someone who is incapable of leading a team. Dirk is an MVP on one of the best teams in the last 8 years. Pretty simple

Not to downplay your arguement either but...

1) Pau is not a 2nd tier PF he is an above average PF
2) Dirk, lead? When? Where was he when D Wade and company took 4 straight from Dallas while Dirk utterly dissappeared every single game in the 4th Quarter...to be a leader you HAVE to finish games. And no offense Dirk does not finish games. I am sure if there was a stat for games within 10 points 4 quarter..Dirks stats wouldnt be so cushy
3) A Leader...MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Magic plays both sides of the ball not just one. Offense will never win a championship.
4) Chris Webber lead Sacremento to a pretty succesful mid 90's to early 2000's..is he a superstar? Regular season means nothing for resumes...

eugene
09-16-2009, 12:12 PM
My European top in order:
Arvydas Sabonis
Dirk Nowitzki
Drazen Petrovic
Pau Gasol
Toni Kukoc
Tony Parker
Sarunas Marciulionis
Peja stojakovic
Andrei Kirilenko
Dino Radja
Hedo Turkoglou

Mr.ATLHawks
09-16-2009, 12:14 PM
By what measures are they joke?? Try to block his jumpshot and he makes it anyway.


You know it's very offending to anyone from the former USSR. :mad: Get your facts straight.

If you read carefully I said to call him anything but: the best 7 foot jump shooter...is a joke. I gave him credit for being an excellent jump shooter.

And why would some get mad for comparing Sabonis, excellent passer, shooter, good court vision, but slow footed...to Yao Ming who has pretty uch the same qualities..

longhorn03-07
09-16-2009, 12:20 PM
Gasol: 18.8 ppg, 52% shooting, 23% 3pt , 8.7 rpg, 2.3 apg
Nowitzki: 23ppg, 47% shooting, 38% 3pt, 8.6 rpg, 2.7 apg
kinda seems like a wash, however I don't think Gasol would have a title without Kobe
Tony Parker is a beast too,
I'd go with Nowitzki

Double_R
09-16-2009, 12:50 PM
Hedo is the most versatile euro of all time

Giantwarrior
09-16-2009, 01:13 PM
who cares about Europe. Best international player, is from the Virgin Islands, Tim Duncan

heatbb
09-16-2009, 01:43 PM
If you read carefully I said to call him anything but: the best 7 foot jump shooter...is a joke. I gave him credit for being an excellent jump shooter.

And why would some get mad for comparing Sabonis, excellent passer, shooter, good court vision, but slow footed...to Yao Ming who has pretty uch the same qualities..
ok, first part was my fault, BUT Sabonis is a lithuanian, not a russian, I ment that. And don't you ever ever call anybody russian, just because he was born in the USSR. There were many countries under the flag of USSR (Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Estonia, Georgia and so on.)

FOBolous
09-16-2009, 01:45 PM
Dirk is the man with the MVP :shrug:

Hawkeye15
09-16-2009, 01:59 PM
Not to downplay your arguement either but...

1) Pau is not a 2nd tier PF he is an above average PF
2) Dirk, lead? When? Where was he when D Wade and company took 4 straight from Dallas while Dirk utterly dissappeared every single game in the 4th Quarter...to be a leader you HAVE to finish games. And no offense Dirk does not finish games. I am sure if there was a stat for games within 10 points 4 quarter..Dirks stats wouldnt be so cushy
3) A Leader...MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Magic plays both sides of the ball not just one. Offense will never win a championship.
4) Chris Webber lead Sacremento to a pretty succesful mid 90's to early 2000's..is he a superstar? Regular season means nothing for resumes...

here ya go

1 is a 2nd option on a championship team, who played for a team that could barely make the playoffs with him as the leader, regardless of his roster
the other is an MVP, with career averages of 23/9, constantly all NBA, and led his team to 60+ wins. He carried his team past a San Antonio team and ran into a team with a destiny.

Now, I don't think Dirk is an all time great, but he is the best of the international players in my opinion, especially when talking about NBA career.

I think you are I are in agreement here, just trying to let you know where I stand.

ragee
09-16-2009, 03:39 PM
Dirk Sabonis and Petrovis are the only ones who should compete for this title.. Petrovic may or may not have been better than the two... We can't really say... He only played in the NBA for two or three years?

Vidball
09-16-2009, 04:13 PM
1. Dirk
2. Pau
3. Drazen
4. Sabonis

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-16-2009, 06:01 PM
Ive heard and read that Arvydas Sobonis was awesome before he came to the NBA. We only saw him after he was older and after he tore his achilles tendon and was never the same.

But for players that I have seen, Im going to say that Dirk has been the best player non American player.

Dirk
Nash
Gasol
Parker
Ginobili

Hellcrooner
09-16-2009, 09:15 PM
^i wonder if a team could win a ring with taht starting five and then Calderon, Paulovic, Peja,Marc Gasol, Turiaff from the bench.

ntat
09-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Regardless of how good Dirk is on offense, he doesnt beat Gasol's all around game. Gasol also has more accomplishments such as gold in both international and U.S. basketball. Hands down it goes to Pau Gasol.

Manu Ginobili could be in the discussion since argentina and the spurs dominated a few times.

Sorry Dirk fans but championships > other accomplishments.
lol, thats stupid. Horry won a ton of champoinships, and u r gonna tell me he is a better PF than Malone was? yeah right. Gasol had not even won a playoff game till he was traded to the LA Kobe's. And Dirk played for ****in Germany, its not his fault they cant compete internationally. Dirk is a better player then Pau. and besides, the best player was Sarunas Marciulionus, the Kings back up swingman. He was not just the best euro player, but possibly the greatest player in the universe...

Macedonian
09-17-2009, 11:47 AM
Drazen Petrovic

Hawkeye15
09-17-2009, 12:34 PM
the whole championships thing only seperates the elites. It doesn't hold water when comparing a 2nd tier player to a 1st tier player. Dirk is a far better individual player than Pau. He just is. Its that easy. To throw rings into the argument, both individuals need to have comparitive careers, example, Pau would have had to won his ring as the #1 guy to be compared to Dirk I think.
Just my opinion

ragee
09-18-2009, 12:38 PM
^i wonder if a team could win a ring with taht starting five and then Calderon, Paulovic, Peja,Marc Gasol, Turiaff from the bench.

As much as I love most of those guys, I would have to say no... Most of them does not know how to play defense... Especially my favorite ones... LOL

Hellcrooner
09-18-2009, 01:31 PM
hawkeye thats deamgogy the day Dirk WINS a ring as a first ooption il bow down to him.

If he ends up winning as second option ( wich is 99% probable) then we will keep discussing.

as for the winless first option is better than second option on a ring winner.

Meh

Is dirk better than :

Pippen

Worthy

Dumars

Mchale

Jerry wEST

Fraxier

Elvin Hayes

Moses Malone

etc etc etc?

ALL OF THEM WON AS SECOND OPTIONS.

so STFU

ragee
09-18-2009, 05:48 PM
hawkeye thats deamgogy the day Dirk WINS a ring as a first ooption il bow down to him.

If he ends up winning as second option ( wich is 99% probable) then we will keep discussing.

as for the winless first option is better than second option on a ring winner.

Meh

Is dirk better than :

Pippen

Worthy

Dumars

Mchale

Jerry wEST

Fraxier

Elvin Hayes

Moses Malone

etc etc etc?

ALL OF THEM WON AS SECOND OPTIONS.

so STFU

True but Dirk is still better than Pau Gasol... Pau Gasol is a second option as well but there is no way he is in the same league as those guys that you have mentioned... Oh, and he is not as good as a defender as you are trying to point out... Yes, he did stop Dwight... With the help of Bynum and Odom! He is not as bad as Dirk but the difference is very little... The only reason he has was able to accomplish more than Dirk is because he has better teammates (Lakers and the Spanish team)...

Hellcrooner
09-19-2009, 12:33 AM
sorry did you say bynum stopped Howard?

Yes of course in the 5 miutes he played a game beore fouling out i guess.... :p


Gasol with Nash and FInley and Jamison and prime Antonie walker and prime stackhouse that i would have loved to watch.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2009, 10:53 AM
Hellcrooner, how on earth is a 18/8 player, who has never gone deep into the playoffs UNTIL he became the #2 option to arguably the top player in the world, comparable to a 25/9 player who has led his team deep into the playoffs on a yearly basis basically?
You are highly overrating Pau Gasol.
And as I stated in another thread, comparisons, if you are gonna use rings, should be made with players of the same class. Dirk, is an elite player. Pau, is not. Even when their careers are over, Dirk will be better with no rings.
And of a few of those players you listed, I think Dirk will fit in with that company, yes. Pau will not. You are shootin down a former MVP, whose prime years consist of 25/9. And using your spanish bias on Gasol. Don't tell me to stfu, I am not going to on this. I won't let you get away with claiming Pau is a better player than Dirk, because its bs.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2009, 10:55 AM
True but Dirk is still better than Pau Gasol... Pau Gasol is a second option as well but there is no way he is in the same league as those guys that you have mentioned... Oh, and he is not as good as a defender as you are trying to point out... Yes, he did stop Dwight... With the help of Bynum and Odom! He is not as bad as Dirk but the difference is very little... The only reason he has was able to accomplish more than Dirk is because he has better teammates (Lakers and the Spanish team)...

Dwight was stopped by height. It is clearly known he has a subpar post game, and relies on his size and freakish athletic ability to score. The Lakers have the one thing that hurts him. Size. Why do you think Yao outplays him head to head? Gasol is getting credit for being a good defender here, when really all it was is 7', 7', 6'10" that stopped Dwight.

Hellcrooner
09-19-2009, 12:25 PM
whatever dude whatever you are folling yourslve and downgrading Pau.

But thanks god when he retires he will have some more rings and some more medals to show and non biased people will remember him as a great player.

As a amtter of fact he is finally starting to get some recofnition in american media, more rings will get him even more recognision.

And by the way KObe bryant has never left the first rond withouth Pau :p

Hellcrooner
09-19-2009, 12:28 PM
and by the way Dirk couldnt win the ring with a two time mvp on his team.

christexaport
09-19-2009, 12:48 PM
I think we got the right guy, but where is Tony Parker in all this?

Hellcrooner
09-19-2009, 01:04 PM
Parker is problematic....is he really an euro'

i mean hsi father is an amerian soldier who was in a militqry base on belgium.

Afridi786
09-19-2009, 01:07 PM
Dirk > Paul. And no that doesn't mean Germany > Spain....it's not the same.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2009, 01:30 PM
whatever dude whatever you are folling yourslve and downgrading Pau.

But thanks god when he retires he will have some more rings and some more medals to show and non biased people will remember him as a great player.

As a amtter of fact he is finally starting to get some recofnition in american media, more rings will get him even more recognision.

And by the way KObe bryant has never left the first rond withouth Pau :p

Robert Horry retired with 7 rings for being in the right place at the right time. Nobody is underrating Pau. You are overrating him. I think Pau is a very good player, who showed he has the toughness to play thru the rigors of the playoffs, and help get a ring for his team. But he is not a superstar, is never in the conversation of being such, has never garnered MVP votes, and never been more than the 8th seed as a 1st option on his team. In fact, without checking, did he even win a single game as the #1 option in the playoffs? Wasn't his team swept twice??
Done with this argument. Your rational is that of a typical fan of a player who has no other argument than the rings. Swap out Pau and Dirk, the Lakers win the next 4 years.

Hellcrooner
09-19-2009, 01:33 PM
in your dreams dirk has NO POST GAME and he WOULD NOT MESH with kobe

ink
09-19-2009, 01:38 PM
in your dreams dirk has NO POST GAME and he WOULD NOT MESH with kobe

I'm not so sure. Pau and Dirk are both excellent teammates. I don't think Dirk would have any problem meshing with Kobe. Would they have to adjust their games a little? Sure. But all NBA players at this level are capable of doing that.

Hellcrooner
09-19-2009, 04:15 PM
problem is i doubt Dirk can be effective with 10 touches a game.

People fals to see how difficult is for Pau to keep socoring similar numbers to whne he was in mempis receiveng much less touches

MackSnackWrap
09-19-2009, 04:27 PM
Pau or dirk, throw parker in that mix aswell

Mavrix
09-19-2009, 06:28 PM
sorry did you say bynum stopped Howard?

Yes of course in the 5 miutes he played a game beore fouling out i guess.... :p


Gasol with Nash and FInley and Jamison and prime Antonie walker and prime stackhouse that i would have loved to watch.
Prime Antoine Walker was when he was in Boston. Prime Stackhouse was when he was in Detroit. Chill out with your statement.

ink
09-19-2009, 06:41 PM
problem is i doubt Dirk can be effective with 10 touches a game.

People fals to see how difficult is for Pau to keep socoring similar numbers to whne he was in mempis receiveng much less touches

I like both players a lot. I don't think either of them would have that much trouble adapting to less touches. They're both very smart, disciplined players.

Kakaroach
09-19-2009, 06:45 PM
Dirka Dirka.

ragee
09-21-2009, 02:48 PM
sorry did you say bynum stopped Howard?

Yes of course in the 5 miutes he played a game beore fouling out i guess.... :p


Gasol with Nash and FInley and Jamison and prime Antonie walker and prime stackhouse that i would have loved to watch.

Yup... And so did Odom, Gasol and any other Laker who helped DOUBLE TEAM him... It was a team effort... Don't act like Gasol did everything...


whatever dude whatever you are folling yourslve and downgrading Pau.

But thanks god when he retires he will have some more rings and some more medals to show and non biased people will remember him as a great player.

As a amtter of fact he is finally starting to get some recofnition in american media, more rings will get him even more recognision.

And by the way KObe bryant has never left the first rond withouth Pau :p

No one is downgrading Pau here... He is a great player... You are just over hyping him... FYI: Kobe won 3 championships without Gasol... Remember Shaq?




problem is i doubt Dirk can be effective with 10 touches a game.

People fals to see how difficult is for Pau to keep socoring similar numbers to whne he was in mempis receiveng much less touches

Dirk not effective with less touches? Get him some more scorers and let's see if you can back up your statment... He is one of the most efficient players in the league... How hard it is to score when the defense is paying so much attention to Kobe? Look at Ariza... Don't get me wrong... This is one of the very few Lakers I like but we have to face the fact that the only reason he was playing that good was because he was feeding off of Kobe... I don't think he will be able to be that good in Houston... Like what I said before, I am not bashing or downgrading your Gasol, you are the one overstating his skills... I am just putting him in the level that he really is...

Basketballguy87
09-21-2009, 04:43 PM
Tony Parker>Dork Noshitzski:D