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View Full Version : Is Chris Bosh a top 10 player in the NBA?



JordansBulls
09-05-2009, 08:35 AM
Two of the last list posted here have listed Chris Bosh as the #7 player in the league and the #10 player in the league. Is he really a top 10 player in the NBA?

PennyMy#1
09-05-2009, 08:58 AM
No, he isn't Top 10. But should be considered somewhere in place 11 to 15.

Reversed86Curse
09-05-2009, 09:02 AM
^ agreed- there are still 12-15 that could be put before him

LanceUpperCut
09-05-2009, 09:08 AM
Yes for sure

heattiltheend94
09-05-2009, 09:18 AM
he is in the late top ten, but top ten nevertheless

nstojic
09-05-2009, 09:31 AM
raps fan here.... i think he's 11-13.... what irks us fans, here, is that he's lining himself up for a max deal and most of us don't feel that he's a max money player.... he just benefits from all the media talk about lebron/wade that also throws bosh's name in there and it creates this misconception that he's close to their level... hell no! if he were to play all the time, the way he played in the first month of last season, it would be a different story... but he doesn't... he's OUR superstar and we love him but he's not elite... he'll get 20-23 ppg, 9-10.5 rpg... won't block much... isn't a beast on D but because we've been a bad team for a while (except for that one 47 win year) he's been the guy to get most of the touches... take a look at the DET or BOS games over the last two/three years... Sheed and KG almost always shut him down...

IMO top 10 players have to have a skill level so high, that they can put their team on their back and win games all by themselves.. I would sooner say that VC's good T.O. days were leauge top 10 material... and people, don't take this as a slight on bosh... he's a very very good player... just not elite... and if you look over the years, those elite players tend not to be 4's... it's rare... Duncan comes to mind but... who else can be that dominant for that long, as a 4?

jimbobjarree
09-05-2009, 09:38 AM
nope

jrice9
09-05-2009, 09:39 AM
hes between 10-15


BTW Jordan's Bulls isnt this your 4th Bosh thread in like 2 weeks

krest213
09-05-2009, 09:40 AM
not really

TheNewbster
09-05-2009, 09:59 AM
until i see him do something on a team that's constantly competitive (sorry raptor fans....) the answer is no. for all i could know his stats are just padded

GCOOKIE7
09-05-2009, 10:21 AM
You just made a thread like this!!! You seem very obsessed with Bosh... he's not goin' to Chicago!!!!!!!!!

MackSnackWrap
09-05-2009, 10:24 AM
ye he is

AirJordanXVIII
09-05-2009, 10:49 AM
No, def top 20, maybe top 15.

todu82
09-05-2009, 11:56 AM
No, he's in my top 15-20 but no way is he top 10.

Stanbuski
09-05-2009, 12:09 PM
kobe
lebron
wade
cp3
kg
duncan
nash
dirk
melo

dwight or bosh at 10 .........

i am a superman fan because he has the most potential in the league next to lebron and cp3 so i put him at 10 but its a tie 2 b honest

Chicagofaithful
09-05-2009, 12:10 PM
In no particular order

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Dwight Howard
5. KG
6. CP3
7. Deron Williams
8. Brandon Roy
9. Dirk
10. Melo
11. Granger
12. Durant
13. maybe even Duncan?

Those are all players i would without a doubt want over Bosh. THen there are the players on his level - yao, Joe Johnson, Amare, ect.

So to me def not a top 10

Toenail Clipper
09-05-2009, 12:12 PM
Heck no.
He's overrated ever since the 2010 free agency started.

blastmasta26
09-05-2009, 12:19 PM
Top 15-20.

Ovratd1up
09-05-2009, 12:19 PM
(to the guy who said Howard is tied for 10th) no, superman should be much higher. This is my top ten...

Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Duncan
Chris Paul
Howard
Dirk
Garnett
Nash
(insert any of the following at #10)

Then after that there is a list of players that will soon be on there, like Kevin Durant, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy, Derrick Rose, and Carmelo Anthony. Yao is also above him. All of these are real franchise players, unlike Bosh.

Nexus
09-05-2009, 12:21 PM
I still think he has to ability to be. If you asked me before his first minor knee injury last season I probably would have said yes. For now, it's a no.

BkOriginalOne
09-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Kobe.
Lebron.
Wade.
Paul.
Howard.
Duncan.
Melo.
Kg.
Dirk.
Pierce.
Amare.
Nash.

MackSnackWrap
09-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Bosh will prove this year that he is a top 10 player, and a franchise player

Stanbuski
09-05-2009, 12:24 PM
melo is past yao n roy kd deron williams n rose have a lot of potential but they are not that high . amare stoudamire is better than bosh now that i think of it so no bosh is not in my top ten .

Ovratd1up
09-05-2009, 12:35 PM
Bosh will prove this year that he is a top 10 player, and a franchise player

Your projected stats are gonna be wrong. Last year he averaged 22ppg on a team with no scoring options, and they added Hedo, that will get you 20 on any given night, and re-upped Bargs, who will be a more consistent scorer. Also. he averaged 10 boards last year but now (after losing JO/Marion) he has no one else on the team who will rebound. So I would think it will be closer to

21ppg, 12rpg, on 50% shooting.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-05-2009, 12:38 PM
11-15.

This is the first Raptors related thread that wasn't public in like 2 week.

dhalvarez
09-05-2009, 01:23 PM
I agree with the top five of Kobe, Lebron, Wade, KG, and CP3.

Nash, Dirk, and Duncan are falling a bit, and if Bosh isn't better than them now, he will be in a year or two.

Dwight vs. Bosh

It would be easy to say Dwight is better considering D12 and the Magic are eastern conferance champs, but Bosh does play him as good as anyone in the NBA.



until i see him do something on a team that's constantly competitive (sorry raptor fans....) the answer is no. for all i could know his stats are just padded

...with a much improved team around Bosh, it's really up to him to step his game up and dictate how the Raptors are going to play.

In the first two months CB4 averaged around 27 ppg, but then fell off a bit as the team started losing, a lot of games and players to injureis, including himself.

For Bosh to be that certian top ten guy, he has to bring that 27 ppg and 10+ rebounds more consistently to not just elevate his game, but his teams game as well!

...well, That is what the Best players Do!

MackSnackWrap
09-05-2009, 01:28 PM
Your projected stats are gonna be wrong. Last year he averaged 22ppg on a team with no scoring options, and they added Hedo, that will get you 20 on any given night, and re-upped Bargs, who will be a more consistent scorer. Also. he averaged 10 boards last year but now (after losing JO/Marion) he has no one else on the team who will rebound. So I would think it will be closer to

shooting.

True he has less scoring option so his points might go down, these are stats im just hoping that he puts up.21ppg, 12rpg, on 50% are good stats aswell, aslong as he has a solid 20 and 10 and can improve his defence and average 1.5 blocks hes fine.

dhalvarez
09-05-2009, 01:36 PM
In no particular order

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Dwight Howard
5. KG
6. CP3
7. Deron Williams
8. Brandon Roy
9. Dirk
10. Melo
11. Granger
12. Durant
13. maybe even Duncan?

Those are all players i would without a doubt want over Bosh. THen there are the players on his level - yao, Joe Johnson, Amare, ect.

So to me def not a top 10

If I were to choose the better player, taking into account the position, I would Bosh over Durant, Roy, Granger and even Williams.

...although it is hard to compare Bosh to guards, I think Bosh and his skills at PF make him more valuable than the others at their positions, where it's pretty deep in selection when including Lebron, Kobe, Wade and CP3.

MAC10TIZZY
09-05-2009, 01:53 PM
two of the last list posted here have listed chris bosh as the #7 player in the league and the #10 player in the league. Is he really a top 10 player in the nba?

hellltothenooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dhalvarez
09-05-2009, 01:54 PM
True he has less scoring option so his points might go down, these are stats im just hoping that he puts up.21ppg, 12rpg, on 50% are good stats aswell, aslong as he has a solid 20 and 10 and can improve his defence and average 1.5 blocks hes fine.

I don't believe that his stats will go down by adding Hedo.

Toronto had a lack of play makers, especially with Calderon gone last season.

By adding Hedo, Jack and Bellinelli which are good playmakers, with Calderon, Toronto will be a better offensive team and Bosh will get better setups.

Especially if you take into account the mismatches that the Raptors can create against their opponents defenses.


...and Amare isn't Better than Bosh.

If anything they will go up, because Hedo is a very good playmaker and will open the floor up more on the offensive side.

dhalvarez
09-05-2009, 01:58 PM
melo is past yao n roy kd deron williams n rose have a lot of potential but they are not that high . amare stoudamire is better than bosh now that i think of it so no bosh is not in my top ten .


Amare isn't better than Bosh!! Bosh is a better all around scorer, defensive player and rebounder.


True he has less scoring option so his points might go down, these are stats im just hoping that he puts up.21ppg, 12rpg, on 50% are good stats aswell, aslong as he has a solid 20 and 10 and can improve his defence and average 1.5 blocks hes fine.

I don't believe that his stats will go down by adding Hedo.

Toronto had a lack of play makers, especially with Calderon gone last season.

By adding Hedo, Jack and Bellinelli which are good playmakers, with Calderon, Toronto will be a better offensive team and Bosh will get better setups.

Especially if you take into account the mismatches that the Raptors can create against their opponents defenses.


If anything they will go up, because Hedo is a very good playmaker and will open the floor up more on the offensive side.

LanceUpperCut
09-05-2009, 02:15 PM
Wow another Raptor related thread, of course by a non-Raptor fan.

Halladay
09-05-2009, 02:27 PM
It's funny because alot of people are saying he isn't when it's a fact that Americans rarely ever see the Raptors play. Now, obviously stats play a big role here and I agree that he's a borderline top 10 player. Also, are we basing this on skills alone or do titles factor in here?

MrFastBreak
09-05-2009, 02:33 PM
Is Chris Bosh a top 10 player in the NBA?

No.

CB4AB7VC15
09-05-2009, 02:40 PM
0ne of only three players to average 20 and 10. The other two are paul and howard.
kobe
lebron
howard
wade
paul
dirk
roy
melo
durant
then bosh
Duncan Kg and Nash use to be top ten and have had better careers, but as of right now going into this season I rather have bosh......

Raph12
09-05-2009, 02:42 PM
Nope, maybe Top 10 PFs but not Top 10 Players

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 03:47 PM
Well, in no order:

Paul
Bryant
James
Wade
Dwight
Duncan
Dirk
KG
Melo
Roy

Are all players who are without a doubt better than Bosh. Then guys like Al Jefferson, Deron Williams, Pau Gasol, Kevin Durant and such have cases to be over Bosh. So no, he is not top ten.

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Are people in this thread on crack?

Of course he's a top 10 player.

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 03:53 PM
It's funny because alot of people are saying he isn't when it's a fact that Americans rarely ever see the Raptors play. Now, obviously stats play a big role here and I agree that he's a borderline top 10 player. Also, are we basing this on skills alone or do titles factor in here?
I don't think that's the case.

It's not like Raptors games are less televised than they are other teams.

But I think he is a top 10 player.

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Are people in this thread on crack?

Of course he's a top 10 player.

Well who in the top ten I posted is he better than?

LanceUpperCut
09-05-2009, 04:13 PM
Top 5 are easily LBJ, Kobe, CP3, Wade and Howard after that it's a toss up between about 6-7 guys and Bosh is definitily in that mix.

Ovratd1up
09-05-2009, 04:16 PM
Amare isn't better than Bosh!! Bosh is a better all around scorer, defensive player and rebounder.



I don't believe that his stats will go down by adding Hedo.

Toronto had a lack of play makers, especially with Calderon gone last season.

By adding Hedo, Jack and Bellinelli which are good playmakers, with Calderon, Toronto will be a better offensive team and Bosh will get better setups.

Especially if you take into account the mismatches that the Raptors can create against their opponents defenses.


If anything they will go up, because Hedo is a very good playmaker and will open the floor up more on the offensive side.

Funny. Amare can score in a variety of ways and does it better than Bosh, and also has a much higher FG%. Bosh is not close to being a better all around scorer than Amare. The defense is debatable because they play different, Amare playing more lazy defense waiting for blocks, and Bosh being too soft, they both are not good. But the better scorer part is ludicrous.

LanceUpperCut
09-05-2009, 04:23 PM
^ Amare is a better dunker thats it not even close when it comes to shooting if Amare did'nt have Nash it would be obvious.

Rapthug
09-05-2009, 04:32 PM
Funny. Amare can score in a variety of ways and does it better than Bosh, and also has a much higher FG%. Bosh is not close to being a better all around scorer than Amare. The defense is debatable because they play different, Amare playing more lazy defense waiting for blocks, and Bosh being too soft, they both are not good. But the better scorer part is ludicrous.

Amare plays with Nash; Bosh doesn't. Bosh is better and not nearly the cancer that Amare is in the locker room. I'll take Bosh any day over Amare.

ChiSox219
09-05-2009, 04:37 PM
Undoubtedly

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 04:38 PM
Well who in the top ten I posted is he better than?
At the minimum he is better than Dirk and Roy.

You could make a case he is better than KG

MackSnackWrap
09-05-2009, 04:55 PM
Bosh is definitely top 10 cant believe some people are saying hes in the 15-20s

Shady66
09-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Amare is easily better then Bosh.

On offense people are saying all amare does is dunk, well last season he was more of a jump shooter then dunker with shaq in the middle and still shot a high %. This season watch out, hes gonna explode.

Rebounding: Again last season Bosh was obviously better as the 2nd best rebounder being Bargnani, well phoenix had shaq. This year he will be in the double digits for rebounds.

Defense: They both suck on defense but the advantage goes to bosh.

All in all, stoudemire is better scorer and much more dominant then bosh.

And all you Raptors fans keep sayin stoudemire has nash, What happend to your amazing PG?

IndiansFan337
09-05-2009, 05:01 PM
Definitely not Top 10.

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Duncan
5. Chris Paul
6. Dirk
7. Howard
8. KG
9. Pierce
10. Durant
11. Roy
12. Nash
13. Bosh?

I'd put Bosh over Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Ray Allen, etc.

Halladay
09-05-2009, 05:09 PM
Amare is easily better then Bosh.

On offense people are saying all amare does is dunk, well last season he was more of a jump shooter then dunker with shaq in the middle and still shot a high %. This season watch out, hes gonna explode.

Rebounding: Again last season Bosh was obviously better as the 2nd best rebounder being Bargnani, well phoenix had shaq. This year he will be in the double digits for rebounds.

Defense: They both suck on defense but the advantage goes to bosh.

All in all, stoudemire is better scorer and much more dominant then bosh.

And all you Raptors fans keep sayin stoudemire has nash, What happend to your amazing PG?


Bit of a homer are we?

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 05:12 PM
At the minimum he is better than Dirk and Roy.

You could make a case he is better than KG

Better than Dirk?

Seriously?

Really?


Dirk had a higher PER, higher PPG avg, a higher offensive rating, a lower defensive rating. Dirk also averaged more blocks and steals per game. I mean, the only category Bosh has on Dirk is rebounds, and FG%(by 1%)

Oh and just so you know Roy had a higher PER than Bosh as well.

Shady66
09-05-2009, 05:12 PM
Dude its obvious Stoudemire is better than bosh, Bosh is a top 20 player. Like i said before in my points i explain why he is better.

magichatnumber9
09-05-2009, 05:16 PM
Bosh is consistently very good. He is a double double machine. But his career is at a plateau, he puts up the same numbers every year. He needs to take his game to another level before he is elite.

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Better than Dirk?

Seriously?

Really?


Dirk had a higher PER, higher PPG avg, a higher offensive rating, a lower defensive rating. Dirk also averaged more blocks and steals per game. I mean, the only category Bosh has on Dirk is rebounds, and FG%(by 1%)

Oh and just so you know Roy had a higher PER than Bosh as well.
Let's take a look at this past season.

Dirk

GP MPG PTS EFF RPG APG STPG BLKPG EFF48M EFF
81 37.7 25.9 25.1 8.4 2.4 0.8 0.78 32.05 25.15

Bosh

GP MPG PTS EFF RPG APG STPG BLKPG EFF48M EFF
77 38.1 22.7 24.9 10.0 2.5 0.9 1.0 31.43 24.9

Bosh averages more rebounds. A key characteristically big man stat that improves overall team defense by limiting opposition possessions.

Bosh averages more steals , by .1 , so that's not much of a factor.

Bosh averages more blocks, another key big man statistic.

Bosh averages more assists, that one's a surprise.

Not to mention Bosh shoots at a higher percentage and possesses an overall greater defensive rating like you mentioned.

Dirk is a purely offensive big man, and frankly that's it.

Bosh is the better all around player, period. Your main player or superstar player should be a well rounded player with as little flaws as possible. Dirk is one of the elite offensive big men in the game, but he possesses many more flaws defensively than Bosh.

Furthermore, using the PER stat as a measure of a player being better than another player is very weak.

The PER rating is a flawed purely numbers based statistic that does very little to accurately portray how positively a player affects a game.

PER measures David Lee and Zach Randolph as being miles better than Steve Nash, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, as well as other stars.

Zach Randolph has a higher PER than Kevin Garnett for crying out loud...

Catch my drift?

Dirk has better career numbers than Bosh but Bosh is younger and possesses the ability to get better while already posting a better season than Dirk.

While Dirk has already shown signs of regression.

It's a clear choice who the better player is.

JordansBulls
09-05-2009, 05:51 PM
At the minimum he is better than Dirk and Roy.

You could make a case he is better than KG

How is he better than Dirk a guy who led his team to the finals as well who has a league mvp and has led the league in PER and Win Shares before?

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 05:51 PM
Let's take a look at this past season.

Dirk

GP MPG PTS EFF RPG APG STPG BLKPG EFF48M EFF
81 37.7 25.9 25.1 8.4 2.4 0.8 0.78 32.05 25.15

Bosh

GP MPG PTS EFF RPG APG STPG BLKPG EFF48M EFF
77 38.1 22.7 24.9 10.0 2.5 0.9 1.0 31.43 24.9

Bosh averages more rebounds. A key characteristically big man stat that improves overall team defense by limiting opposition possessions.

Bosh averages more steals , by .1 , so that's not much of a factor.

Bosh averages more blocks, another key big man statistic.

Bosh averages more assists, that one's a surprise.

Not to mention Bosh shoots at a higher percentage and possesses an overall greater defensive rating like you mentioned.

Dirk is a purely offensive big man, and frankly that's it.

Bosh is the better all around player, period. Your main player or superstar player should be a well rounded player with as little flaws as possible. Dirk is one of the elite offensive big men in the game, but he possesses many more flaws defensively than Bosh.

Furthermore, using the PER stat as a measure of a player being better than another player is very weak.

The PER rating is a flawed purely numbers based statistic that does very little to accurately portray how positively a player affects a game.

PER measures David Lee and Zach Randolph as being miles better than Steve Nash, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, as well as other stars.

Zach Randolph has a higher PER than Kevin Garnett for crying out loud...

Catch my drift?

Dirk has better career numbers than Bosh but Bosh is younger and possesses the ability to get better while already posting a better season than Dirk.

While Dirk has already shown signs of regression.

It's a clear choice who the better player is.

:facepalm:

Defensive rating is the amount of points a player(or team) gives up per 100 posessions, which mean the higher it is, the worse at defense you are. Which means Dirk is a better defender.

Which means your entire argument just went to ****.

Not to mention Dirk had more Win Shares, and has won a league MVP before and has his team in contention every year for 50+ wins.

b_rad23
09-05-2009, 05:52 PM
Bosh averages more steals , by .1 , so that's not much of a factor.

Bosh averages more blocks, another key big man statistic.

Bosh averages more assists, that one's a surprise.

All by insignifigant amounts, that's grasping for straws. They're around equal in all three areas.


Not to mention Bosh shoots at a higher percentage and possesses an overall greater defensive rating like you mentioned.

Dirk is a purely offensive big man, and frankly that's it.


Lower defensive rating= better defensive rating. Dirk is much better than Bosh defensively.

Dirk is equally well rounded. Neither are going to be confused with KG as an overall player but neither has an advantage on the other.

Dirk is a much better scorer, he's more efficient, and he's better definsively.

Bosh is a better rebounder.

All this AND he's on a playoff squad.

Give the man his due, he's better than Bosh.

theuuord
09-05-2009, 06:01 PM
Numbers lie if you take them out of context.


Let's take a look at this past season.

Bosh averages more rebounds. A key characteristically big man stat that improves overall team defense by limiting opposition possessions.

Bosh averages more offensive rebounds because he's more likely to be in the interior than Dirk on offense. Dirk has a better defensive rebound rate, both last season and career-wise, so if we're talking about purely limiting opponent possessions and not maintaining team possessions, Dirk has done a better job of that.


Bosh averages more steals , by .1 , so that's not much of a factor.
The steal rate between the two players is 1% to 1.2%. For a big man that's a negligible difference.


Bosh averages more blocks, another key big man statistic.

Bosh's block rate is 2%. Dirk's is 1.5%. A difference, but not a huge one.


Bosh averages more assists, that one's a surprise.

Here's where numbers really lie. Bosh averages more assists because of the discrepancy in minutes and possessions played between the teams. Dirk had the worst passing year of the last five years this past season - and by a wide margin - and still had a higher assist rate than Bosh (12.1%-11.6%).
The two years prior to that Dirk posted assist rates of 17.8% both years while Bosh hovered around the 12% mark.


Not to mention Bosh shoots at a higher percentage and possesses an overall greater defensive rating like you mentioned.

Again, numbers lie. Bosh shoots a higher percentage because he takes less threes.
Dirk: 49.3% two-pointers, 35.9% three-pointers, 89% free throws
Bosh: 49.7% two-pointers, 24.5 three-pointers, 81.7% free throws

The difference is far less than you're making it seem. Bosh had a .005 higher true shooting percentage and Dirk had a .006 higher eFG%. They would be even, except Dirk performs at his level of efficiency while taking on a significantly larger offensive load.


Dirk is a purely offensive big man, and frankly that's it.

He's an average defensive player, yes. So is Bosh.


Bosh is the better all around player, period. Your main player or superstar player should be a well rounded player with as little flaws as possible. Dirk is one of the elite offensive big men in the game, but he possesses many more flaws defensively than Bosh.

Dirk is the elite offensive big man in the game not born on the Virgin Islands. Bosh is great, but he's not as good as Dirk yet - and any positives that come about from Bosh's defensive abilities don't offset Dirk's offensive output.


Furthermore, using the PER stat as a measure of a player being better than another player is very weak.

The PER rating is a flawed purely numbers based statistic that does very little to accurately portray how positively a player affects a game.

PER measures David Lee and Zach Randolph as being miles better than Steve Nash, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, as well as other stars.

Comparing PER across positions is a major no-no. But I don't think a 19.6 PER over 50 games (Randolph) is miles better than a 19.5 PER over a full season (Nash), 19.0 PER over a full season (Anthony), a 17.7 PER over a full season (Pierce), or an 18.2 PER over a full season (Johnson).


Zach Randolph has a higher PER than Kevin Garnett for crying out loud...

Kevin Garnett had a 21.2 PER this season and hasn't had one under 20 in over a decade, so I'm not sure what numbers you're referring to, but if you're looking to make an argument, I'd do your research first.

Catch my drift?

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 06:06 PM
:facepalm:

Defensive rating is the amount of points a player(or team) gives up per 100 posessions, which mean the higher it is, the worse at defense you are. Which means Dirk is a better defender.

Which means your entire argument just went to ****.

Not to mention Dirk had more Win Shares, and has won a league MVP before and has his team in contention every year for 50+ wins.
Yes, I know that....

By "greater", I meant "better."

Bosh has a DEF rating of 7.2 for this year and 6.5 career wise.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_bosh/

Dirk has a DEF rating of 7.3 career and season wise.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/


So yeah... argument still holds ;)

theuuord
09-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Yes, I know that....

By "greater", I meant "better."

Bosh has a DEF rating of 7.2 for this year and 6.5 career wise.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_bosh/

Dirk has a DEF rating of 7.3 career and season wise.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/


So yeah... argument still holds ;)

I don't know what defensive rating you're referring to but those are definitely not them.
Defensive rating is points allowed per 100 possessions. There is no person or creature in the universe who allows 7 points per 100 possessions against NBA-level offense.
Dirk has a career DRtg of 103, Bosh has one of 106, which means over the course of his career Dirk has been 3 points per 100 possessions better than Bosh - the same difference between the New Orleans Hornets (9th in the league in defense) and the Toronto Raptors (22nd in the league in defense).

Either way, I wouldn't use them seriously, since defensive rating is highly flawed in the first place when rating individual defense. Even the creator admits that.

smith&wesson
09-05-2009, 06:11 PM
kobe
lebron
wade
cp3
howard
nowitsky
carmelo
roy
yao
garnet, amre,bosh, duncan are all arguable

i dont know if garnet and duncan are still better then bosh at this point of theyre careers and amare and bosh are pretty close. id say all four of those guys are about the same right now. its debatable but theres no clear better player. it can be argued that bosh is top ten it can be argued the he is top 15 i tihnk its a matter of opinion.

he is 11

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 06:39 PM
I don't know what defensive rating you're referring to but those are definitely not them.
Defensive rating is points allowed per 100 possessions. There is no person or creature in the universe who allows 7 points per 100 possessions against NBA-level offense.
Dirk has a career DRtg of 103, Bosh has one of 106, which means over the course of his career Dirk has been 3 points per 100 possessions better than Bosh - the same difference between the New Orleans Hornets (9th in the league in defense) and the Toronto Raptors (22nd in the league in defense).

Either way, I wouldn't use them seriously, since defensive rating is highly flawed in the first place when rating individual defense. Even the creator admits that.

Lol, I think he was looking at defensive rebounds per game from nba.com.

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 06:51 PM
Lol, I think he was looking at defensive rebounds per game from nba.com.
LOL Oh snap, you're right.

I need to look at the pages more carefully. :(

Where did you get the ratings from

Joshtd1
09-05-2009, 06:55 PM
No

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 06:56 PM
Numbers lie if you take them out of context.



Bosh averages more offensive rebounds because he's more likely to be in the interior than Dirk on offense. Dirk has a better defensive rebound rate, both last season and career-wise, so if we're talking about purely limiting opponent possessions and not maintaining team possessions, Dirk has done a better job of that.


The steal rate between the two players is 1% to 1.2%. For a big man that's a negligible difference.



Bosh's block rate is 2%. Dirk's is 1.5%. A difference, but not a huge one.



Here's where numbers really lie. Bosh averages more assists because of the discrepancy in minutes and possessions played between the teams. Dirk had the worst passing year of the last five years this past season - and by a wide margin - and still had a higher assist rate than Bosh (12.1%-11.6%).
The two years prior to that Dirk posted assist rates of 17.8% both years while Bosh hovered around the 12% mark.



Again, numbers lie. Bosh shoots a higher percentage because he takes less threes.
Dirk: 49.3% two-pointers, 35.9% three-pointers, 89% free throws
Bosh: 49.7% two-pointers, 24.5 three-pointers, 81.7% free throws

The difference is far less than you're making it seem. Bosh had a .005 higher true shooting percentage and Dirk had a .006 higher eFG%. They would be even, except Dirk performs at his level of efficiency while taking on a significantly larger offensive load.



He's an average defensive player, yes. So is Bosh.



Dirk is the elite offensive big man in the game not born on the Virgin Islands. Bosh is great, but he's not as good as Dirk yet - and any positives that come about from Bosh's defensive abilities don't offset Dirk's offensive output.



Comparing PER across positions is a major no-no. But I don't think a 19.6 PER over 50 games (Randolph) is miles better than a 19.5 PER over a full season (Nash), 19.0 PER over a full season (Anthony), a 17.7 PER over a full season (Pierce), or an 18.2 PER over a full season (Johnson).



Kevin Garnett had a 21.2 PER this season and hasn't had one under 20 in over a decade, so I'm not sure what numbers you're referring to, but if you're looking to make an argument, I'd do your research first.

Catch my drift?
Did you do the math or did you get assist rate numbers from somewhere?

effen5
09-05-2009, 07:08 PM
I think bosh is extremely overrated.

JordansBulls
09-05-2009, 07:26 PM
I think bosh is extremely overrated.

Overrated in what sense?

dtmagnet
09-05-2009, 07:26 PM
Not top 10 in my opinion, doesn't change the fact that he is a very good player.

canzano55
09-05-2009, 07:26 PM
Of course he's top 10 anyone who thinks otherwise is either uninformed or biased.

KG, Dirk, and Duncan are at the tail end of their careers and all of them are showing signs of regression. Not only is Bosh a top 10 player but he's the best power forward in the world and he will ultimately get better.

If you don't believe me ask yourself this question: if you had to build a franchise for today and tomorrow who would you select at the 4 position?

U.S.A baketball made the right choice, why can't other Americans do the same?

SA5195
09-05-2009, 07:27 PM
I think bosh is extremely overrated.

Averaged 22.7 ppg and 10 rpg....how is he overrated again?

GodsSon
09-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Averaged 22.7 ppg and 10 rpg....how is he overrated again?

Because he plays on the Raptors...seriously, i've noticed this trend with players on our team, Marion being a perfect example...when we traded JO for him last year i remember a lot of people on the NBA forum saying Marion was washed-up and wouldnt do much for us, months later when we trade him his value suddenly skyrockets and we're dumb for giving him up in favour of Turk??? :rolleyes:...back to Bosh, i think he's definitely a top 10 player as he has the consistency (always around 20/10), inside/out game, age and potential to still grow into the best 4 in the L (i'd put him second behind only Dirk right now)

Hustla23
09-05-2009, 07:40 PM
Did you do the math or did you get assist rate numbers from somewhere?
If by assist rate, I'm assuming that's just assist percentage on basketball-reference.com

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 07:52 PM
LOL Oh snap, you're right.

I need to look at the pages more carefully. :(

Where did you get the ratings from

basketball-reference

AllTheWay
09-05-2009, 07:54 PM
Of course he's top 10 anyone who thinks otherwise is either uninformed or biased.

KG, Dirk, and Duncan are at the tail end of their careers and all of them are showing signs of regression. Not only is Bosh a top 10 player but he's the best power forward in the world and he will ultimately get better.

If you don't believe me ask yourself this question: if you had to build a franchise for today and tomorrow who would you select at the 4 position?

U.S.A baketball made the right choice, why can't other Americans do the same?

We aren't talking about who is better next year. We are talking about right friggin now, and for the upcoming NBA season. I would take any of those 3 in a heartbeat of Bosh for the 2009-10 NBA season.

theuuord
09-05-2009, 08:00 PM
If by assist rate, I'm assuming that's just assist percentage on basketball-reference.com

yup. probably the most useful basketball statistic site on the internet. defensive ratings are there too.

ko8e24
09-05-2009, 08:01 PM
kobe, wade, lebron, cp3, melo, dwight, pau, kg, dirk, b-roy, d-will, duncan, yao are all better than bosh right now. so that would make him 14 at best

lorenz00
09-05-2009, 09:44 PM
yes he is he'll prove it this year! and i heard hes gaining muscles so he'll be stronger

Raph12
09-05-2009, 10:11 PM
My Top 20 Players list:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Dwight
6. Duncan
7. Dirk
8. Garnett
9. Roy
10. D-Will
11. Melo
12. Pierce
13. Yao
14. Billups
15. Durant
16. Stoudamire
17. Parker
18. Allen
18. Gasol
20. Granger

Personally I wouldn't remove anyone from this list for Bosh, anyone can score and rebound on one of the league's worst teams (ie. Al Jefferson). Now if his defense and post game both improve drastically, I'll be in a hurry to remove some people on this list.

JordansBulls
09-05-2009, 11:22 PM
My Top 20 Players list:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Dwight
6. Duncan
7. Dirk
8. Garnett
9. Roy
10. D-Will
11. Melo
12. Pierce
13. Yao
14. Billups
15. Durant
16. Stoudamire
17. Parker
18. Allen
18. Gasol
20. Granger

Personally I wouldn't remove anyone from this list for Bosh, anyone can score and rebound on one of the league's worst teams (ie. Al Jefferson). Now if his defense and post game both improve drastically, I'll be in a hurry to remove some people on this list.

Their is no way that Ray Allen or Tony Parker are better than Gasol or Bosh at this point. I don't even rank Billups over them either.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2009, 11:24 PM
mmmm lets say.

in no order, guys that are better:

Lebron,Granger,Rose,Kg, Pierce,Wade,Dwight,Carter,J Johnson,Kobe,Pau,TD,T Parker,Ming,Dirk,C Paul,B Roy,Durant,Deron,Melo,Billups.


So that makes him the 21

RaptorizedKevin
09-06-2009, 12:25 AM
kobe
lebron
wade
cp3
kg
duncan
nash
dirk
melo

dwight or bosh at 10 .........

i am a superman fan because he has the most potential in the league next to lebron and cp3 so i put him at 10 but its a tie 2 b honest

Your funny . just really funny. DWIGHT AT 10? DWIGHT IS THE BEST CENTER IN THE NBA ATM. NBA ALL FIRST TEAM. NBA DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM. NBA A DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. MAN YOU ARE DUMB.

RaptorizedKevin
09-06-2009, 12:26 AM
mmmm lets say.

in no order, guys that are better:

Lebron,Granger,Rose,Kg, Pierce,Wade,Dwight,Carter,J Johnson,Kobe,Pau,TD,T Parker,Ming,Dirk,C Paul,B Roy,Durant,Deron,Melo,Billups.


So that makes him the 21

How is rose top player in teh nba. thats so messed up. hes a rookie. he iksnt an all star. a young player with unlimted potentiall and i would agree to be a star. but not yet. stop overating him as top player. thats just stupid.

Raph12
09-06-2009, 12:56 AM
Their is no way that Ray Allen or Tony Parker are better than Gasol or Bosh at this point. I don't even rank Billups over them either.

Gasol maybe, Bosh still can't play defense and his stats aren't outstanding for the best player on a bad team. I would rank Bosh with Al Jefferson, in the 21-25 positions.

koreancabbage
09-06-2009, 01:01 AM
how is Amare better than Bosh. Amare has Nash. all Amare has to do is freakin catch the ball on the pick and roll and he's open for open shots all the time.

Bosh has the better all-round offense.

How is a 20-10 guy for the last 3 years not a top 10 player and is only 25? just because he doesn't take the last shot like most of those players? What constitutes a good player? championships? many of those players are on teams way better than the Raptors and most of them don't have championships.

Parker, Deron, Durant, Roy, Carter are not better than Bosh at this moment and time. Out of those 5, only Parker has the ring(s). give Bosh a better team (this year and see how he performs) and then we'll judge.

AllTheWay
09-06-2009, 01:06 AM
how is Amare better than Bosh. Amare has Nash. all Amare has to do is freakin catch the ball on the pick and roll and he's open for open shots all the time.

Bosh has the better all-round offense.

How is a 20-10 guy for the last 3 years not a top 10 player and is only 25? just because he doesn't take the last shot like most of those players? What constitutes a good player? championships? many of those players are on teams way better than the Raptors and most of them don't have championships.

Parker, Deron, Durant, Roy, Carter are not better than Bosh at this moment and time. Out of those 5, only Parker has the ring(s). give Bosh a better team (this year and see how he performs) and then we'll judge.

He's not a top ten player because their are at least 10 players better than him.

effen5
09-06-2009, 01:22 AM
Averaged 22.7 ppg and 10 rpg....how is he overrated again?

Well IMO, people hype him up to be a legit franchise player when in fact hes not. I see him as a legit #2, not #1. Thats why I see him as overrated.

Definetly dont see how you can build a team around him like you can with Lebron or Wade or Kobe but he would definetly compliment a legit #1. Definetly not top 10 though.

mrblisterdundee
09-06-2009, 01:23 AM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Dwayne Wade
4. Dwight Howard
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Tim Duncan
7. Chris Paul
8. Brandon Roy
9. Paul Pierce
10. Dirk Nowitzki

yungballah15
09-06-2009, 01:26 AM
mmmm lets say.

in no order, guys that are better:

Lebron,Granger,Rose,Kg, Pierce,Wade,Dwight,Carter,J Johnson,Kobe,Pau,TD,T Parker,Ming,Dirk,C Paul,B Roy,Durant,Deron,Melo,Billups.


So that makes him the 21

holayyyy chyll yo, derrick rose, kevin durant hehe :clap: even carter lol, granger lol joe johnson lolll, deron williams is your only one that you can have a debate with.... but nawww

bosh isnt top 10 if he is hes probaly the 10th person on the list, but hes fo sure top 15,

_KB24_
09-06-2009, 01:34 AM
Bosh is a Top 3 PF in the Game today. I'd only put KG and Duncan over him, and if Duncan has a "bad" year with something like 16 and 10, than I would put Bosh over him. Dirk along with Amare are done and Gasol is still behind Bosh.

theuuord
09-06-2009, 01:40 AM
Bosh is a Top 3 PF in the Game today. I'd only put KG and Duncan over him, and if Duncan has a "bad" year with something like 16 and 10, than I would put Bosh over him. Dirk along with Amare are done and Gasol is still behind Bosh.

Duncan hasn't had a bad year his entire career. He's the most unbelievably consistent player of our generation.
He's one of those guys that you just need to assume he'll keep having great years until there's any indication that starts to slip.
Same with Dirk, to a lesser extent.

I'd put KG, Duncan, Dirk, and Gasol over Bosh right now... Amare too, depending how he returns.

_KB24_
09-06-2009, 01:47 AM
Duncan hasn't had a bad year his entire career. He's the most unbelievably consistent player of our generation.
He's one of those guys that you just need to assume he'll keep having great years until there's any indication that starts to slip.
Same with Dirk, to a lesser extent.

I'd put KG, Duncan, Dirk, and Gasol over Bosh right now... Amare too, depending how he returns.


and if Duncan has a "bad" year with something like 16 and 10,

Buddy, thats why I said if he were to have a "bad" year with averages of 16 and 10 (numbers anyone would die for), then I would give the edge to a younger, athletic Bosh who is presumably going to average around 20-22 ppg and 10 rbg. I would never undermine Duncan but I think he is not the old Duncan we were fortunate to see. Same with Dirk, he's still good, but Bosh is a much better choice now on offense and defense.

theuuord
09-06-2009, 01:51 AM
Buddy, thats why I said if he were to have a "bad" year with averages of 16 and 10 (numbers anyone would die for), then I would give the edge to a younger, athletic Bosh who is presumably going to average around 20-22 ppg and 10 rbg.

That's a weird thing to say though, considering there's no indication that he'll regress that much.
That's like saying "if Chris Paul averaged 16-7 next year, then sure I'd put Derrick Rose over him."


I would never undermine Duncan but I think he is not the old Duncan we were fortunate to see. Same with Dirk, he's still good, but Bosh is a much better choice now on offense and defense.

We had a debate about Bosh/Dirk earlier in the thread. Check it out if you're curious.

Raph12
09-06-2009, 01:58 AM
how is Amare better than Bosh. Amare has Nash. all Amare has to do is freakin catch the ball on the pick and roll and he's open for open shots all the time.

Bosh has the better all-round offense.

How is a 20-10 guy for the last 3 years not a top 10 player and is only 25? just because he doesn't take the last shot like most of those players? What constitutes a good player? championships? many of those players are on teams way better than the Raptors and most of them don't have championships.

Parker, Deron, Durant, Roy, Carter are not better than Bosh at this moment and time. Out of those 5, only Parker has the ring(s). give Bosh a better team (this year and see how he performs) and then we'll judge.

Amare not only puts up better numbers (when healthy), but he is more explosive, he has a better post game and plays better defense. Bosh has shooting on him and that's about it.

Bosh's 23-10 stats are inflated because he is the best player on a bad team, Al Jefferson put up 23-11 and plays better defense than Bosh, but he still wouldn't make my Top 20 list. I don't rank players just based on their clutchness or just by the amount of rings they have, I assess every aspect of the player's game and make a decision. Bosh is not the clear cut leader on the Raptors, Jose seems to be the leader on the court and also the vocal leader, Bosh just looks like he's going to work. Bosh is not a franchise player, he won't win anything as the best player on any team, but he would thrive as the 2nd option.

He is a good player, but just not Top 20 IMO. You tell me who you would put Bosh over on this list:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Dwight
6. Duncan
7. Dirk
8. Garnett
9. Roy
10. D-Will
11. Melo
12. Pierce
13. Yao
14. Billups
15. Gasol
16. Stoudamire
17. Granger
18. Durant
19. Parker
20. Carter
21. Jefferson
22. Bosh
23. Ginobli
24. Nash
25. Allen

thedfactor
09-06-2009, 02:06 AM
Nope. Bosh isn't top 10 material

Jambox5000
09-06-2009, 02:12 AM
In no particular order

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Dwight Howard
5. KG
6. CP3
7. Deron Williams
8. Brandon Roy
9. Dirk
10. Melo
11. Granger
12. Durant
13. maybe even Duncan?

Those are all players i would without a doubt want over Bosh. THen there are the players on his level - yao, Joe Johnson, Amare, ect.

So to me def not a top 10

No particular order...yet you put them in numerical order?:confused:

Shady66
09-06-2009, 02:13 AM
bosh is a top 3 pf in the game today. I'd only put kg and duncan over him, and if duncan has a "bad" year with something like 16 and 10, than i would put bosh over him. dirk along with amare are done and gasol is still behind bosh.

what did you mean by Amare and Dirk are done?

dhalvarez
09-06-2009, 02:40 AM
Funny. Amare can score in a variety of ways and does it better than Bosh, and also has a much higher FG%. Bosh is not close to being a better all around scorer than Amare. The defense is debatable because they play different, Amare playing more lazy defense waiting for blocks, and Bosh being too soft, they both are not good. But the better scorer part is ludicrous.

a variety of ways being dunk and ...lay up?

Shaq's FG% is around 60% so does that mean what? That he's better than Kobe offensively, because he only shoots 46%.


Amare is only effective dunking and when he does shoot jumpers, his % goes down.

Bosh has a much better mid range game, and yeah he can dunk just like Amare.

Bosh can rebound better too, even though he's seen as a "Soft" player, which is an overblown statement since he's defended Dwight Howard better than Amare ever has.

Amare is a second choice PF right now after Bosh in regards to 2010.

Bosh is still improving and Amare is already past his prime.

Shady66
09-06-2009, 02:55 AM
^ Your Insane Lmao.

First off, you cant compare FG % between a Center and a SG.
Second off, Amare has a much more fine tuned Offensive game then Bosh, he takes his jumpshots and shoots a pretty good % on them, but unlike bosh, he gets to the rim. Also, Bosh gets so many rebounds because look who their 2nd best rebounder is, Bargs. This year Amare will average more, or just as many rebounds as Bosh.

Just wondering, how is Amare past his prime? If anything, hes just getting into it.

Mave1002
09-06-2009, 04:13 AM
kobe
LBJ
Dwade
Duncan
KG

Pau
Dirk
Al Jefferson
Cp3
Yao

Bosh can be on the top 15..,top 20 but definitely not the top 10

11. Dwight Howard
12. Melo
13. Bosh
14. Deron Williams
15. Amare

16.Granger
17.Billups
18.Rose
19.Kidd
20.Jamison

did i miss anyone?

I like you
09-06-2009, 04:40 AM
no

xxxplicit69
09-06-2009, 05:17 AM
as players like duncan and garnett get older and tmac and all those guys, yes i would say that bosh is a top 10 player, he could pick it up on his defensive numbers though, he doesnt block many shots for an athletic 6'10 forward.

ARMIN12NBA
09-06-2009, 05:41 AM
That's a weird thing to say though, considering there's no indication that he'll regress that much.
That's like saying "if Chris Paul averaged 16-7 next year, then sure I'd put Derrick Rose over him."



We had a debate about Bosh/Dirk earlier in the thread. Check it out if you're curious.

Not really. The comparison is erroneous. Duncan is much older and is entering the stage in his career where it is expected and predicted (even if incorrectly) that there would be a drop-off in his game. Chris Paul is entering his prime years athletically. The comparison doesn't work.

Lakersfan2483
09-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Two of the last list posted here have listed Chris Bosh as the #7 player in the league and the #10 player in the league. Is he really a top 10 player in the NBA?

No, I don't think he's in the top ten. I have him ranked behind Kobe, Lebron, Wade, CP3, Howard, Duncan, Dirk, KG, Melo, and D. Williams and a healthy Yao Ming.

blackjack_119
09-06-2009, 07:18 AM
I think that the top players tend to fall into distinct groups:
The top six players are:
LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan
(In no particular order)
The next five are:
Deron Williams, Brandon Roy, Carmelo Anthony, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett
After the top 11, there is a large pool that cases can be made for most players to be the "next best player":
PG: Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Kevin Durant, Danny Granger, Paul Pierce
PF: Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol, Amare Stoudemire
C: Yao Ming, Al Jefferson

So I would rank Chris Bosh in the 12-22 range... probably around 20. I think from that list, I would only rank Paul Pierce and Joe Johnson lower than Bosh.

blackjack_119
09-06-2009, 07:22 AM
kobe
LBJ
Dwade
Duncan
KG

Pau
Dirk
Al Jefferson
Cp3
Yao

Bosh can be on the top 15..,top 20 but definitely not the top 10

11. Dwight Howard
12. Melo
13. Bosh
14. Deron Williams
15. Amare

16.Granger
17.Billups
18.Rose
19.Kidd
20.Jamison

did i miss anyone?
Brandon Roy and Kevin Durant should be in the top 20. Kidd definitely should not. At this point, Tony Parker is still a better player than Derrick Rose (although Rose's upside is freakishly high.)

Rapthug
09-06-2009, 07:59 AM
Amare is easily better then Bosh.

On offense people are saying all amare does is dunk, well last season he was more of a jump shooter then dunker with shaq in the middle and still shot a high %. This season watch out, hes gonna explode.

Rebounding: Again last season Bosh was obviously better as the 2nd best rebounder being Bargnani, well phoenix had shaq. This year he will be in the double digits for rebounds.

Defense: They both suck on defense but the advantage goes to bosh.

All in all, stoudemire is better scorer and much more dominant then bosh.

And all you Raptors fans keep sayin stoudemire has nash, What happend to your amazing PG?

I'm a huge Jose Calderon but he is not in Nash's league. Nash made Marion a better player than he really was and it's the same with Amare.

Rapthug
09-06-2009, 08:16 AM
^ Your Insane Lmao.

First off, you cant compare FG % between a Center and a SG.
Second off, Amare has a much more fine tuned Offensive game then Bosh, he takes his jumpshots and shoots a pretty good % on them, but unlike bosh, he gets to the rim. Also, Bosh gets so many rebounds because look who their 2nd best rebounder is, Bargs. This year Amare will average more, or just as many rebounds as Bosh.

Just wondering, how is Amare past his prime? If anything, hes just getting into it.

All around fine tuned game must simply mean he's a better dunker.

He gets to the rim more than Bosh? Then why did Bosh rank #7 in the league in three throw attempts? You gotta go to the rim to do that. Where did Amare rank?

Bosh did play with guys that could rebound last year....Jermaine O'Neal and then Marion. I'm not a Marion fan but the guy is a great rebounder.

mitch91
09-06-2009, 08:54 AM
he could slip in there, but i think i have him just outside the top10, though i would not argue with people who have him in their top10

theuuord
09-06-2009, 10:37 AM
Not really. The comparison is erroneous. Duncan is much older and is entering the stage in his career where it is expected and predicted (even if incorrectly) that there would be a drop-off in his game. Chris Paul is entering his prime years athletically. The comparison doesn't work.

Not the point.

dhalvarez
09-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Heck no.
He's overrated ever since the 2010 free agency started.

2010 free agency hasn't started yet.:eyebrow:

MackSnackWrap
09-06-2009, 10:50 AM
Amare not only puts up better numbers (when healthy), but he is more explosive, he has a better post game and plays better defense. Bosh has shooting on him and that's about it.

Bosh's 23-10 stats are inflated because he is the best player on a bad team, Al Jefferson put up 23-11 and plays better defense than Bosh, but he still wouldn't make my Top 20 list. I don't rank players just based on their clutchness or just by the amount of rings they have, I assess every aspect of the player's game and make a decision. Bosh is not the clear cut leader on the Raptors, Jose seems to be the leader on the court and also the vocal leader, Bosh just looks like he's going to work. Bosh is not a franchise player, he won't win anything as the best player on any team, but he would thrive as the 2nd option.

He is a good player, but just not Top 20 IMO. You tell me who you would put Bosh over on this list:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Dwight
6. Duncan
7. Dirk
8. Garnett
9. Roy
10. D-Will
11. Melo
12. Pierce
13. Yao
14. Billups
15. Gasol
16. Stoudamire
17. Granger
18. Durant
19. Parker
20. Carter
21. Jefferson
22. Bosh
23. Ginobli
24. Nash
25. Allen

Wow are you out your mind theres no way bosh is 22nd best player in the league thasts ridiculously low hes better than everyone i have bolded, and that would have him at # 10 where he should be. Putting the guy @ number 22 is just plain dumb.

dhalvarez
09-06-2009, 10:57 AM
Amare not only puts up better numbers (when healthy), but he is more explosive, he has a better post game and plays better defense. Bosh has shooting on him and that's about it.

Bosh's 23-10 stats are inflated because he is the best player on a bad team, Al Jefferson put up 23-11 and plays better defense than Bosh, but he still wouldn't make my Top 20 list. I don't rank players just based on their clutchness or just by the amount of rings they have, I assess every aspect of the player's game and make a decision. Bosh is not the clear cut leader on the Raptors, Jose seems to be the leader on the court and also the vocal leader, Bosh just looks like he's going to work. Bosh is not a franchise player, he won't win anything as the best player on any team, but he would thrive as the 2nd option.

He is a good player, but just not Top 20 IMO. You tell me who you would put Bosh over on this list:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Dwight
6. Duncan
7. Dirk
8. Garnett
9. Roy
10. D-Will
11. Melo
12. Pierce
13. Yao
14. Billups
15. Gasol
16. Stoudamire
17. Granger
18. Durant
19. Parker
20. Carter
21. Jefferson
22. Bosh
23. Ginobli
24. Nash
25. Allen


I would agree with some of them other than:

Jefferson (to slow, Bosh plays him pretty good.
Durant
Parker
Granger
Stoudamire (second to Bosh)

Gasol (Good on the Lakers, but his career was dying when he was the number one in Memphis)

Billups
Yao
D-Will
Roy
Carter

when taking into consideration the different positions.

SpeeMN
09-06-2009, 11:31 AM
Ridiculous. I need to know what Bosh has done to warrant a top ten. I know he's a four time all-star and the face of the franchise, but he hasn't led his team through the playoffs. He doesn't play like an elite night in and night out. You don't automatically put Toronto in the playoffs because of him. He really good, but not top ten.

and by the way, dirk is better than him.... and i'd have to be convinced that he's better than Al Jefferson, because they're stat lines are the same (Al's is a little better).

Raph12
09-06-2009, 11:54 AM
I would agree with some of them other than:

Jefferson (to slow, Bosh plays him pretty good.
Durant
Parker
Granger
Stoudamire (second to Bosh)

Gasol (Good on the Lakers, but his career was dying when he was the number one in Memphis)

Billups
Yao
D-Will
Roy
Carter

when taking into consideration the different positions.


Wow are you out your mind theres no way bosh is 22nd best player in the league thasts ridiculously low hes better than everyone i have bolded, and that would have him at # 10 where he should be. Putting the guy @ number 22 is just plain dumb.

Finally I was waiting for someone to respond, now listen to the comparisons:

Dirk - Better in every aspect of the game, I don't know why you'd try to even debate this (Led his team to the Finals)

Roy - A great leader the reason why the Blazers have turned things around (Led his team to the 1st round)

D-Will - An underrated player, one of the best defenders at his position and the second best PG in the league (Led his team to the WCFs)

Melo - A better defender, with better offensive skills and now with a true PG showing him the way, he is coming into his own (Led his team to the WCFs)

Pierce - Are you kidding, Pierce has all the offensive tools to be a Top 10 player in the league and he is a great defender (Led his team to a championship)

Yao - When healthy Yao is a Top 10 player, terrific offensive game and a good one-on-one defender (Led his team to the 2nd round)

Billups - He turned around a Denver team headed in the wrong direction with his leadership and defensive mind (Led his team to the WCFs in 2009 and a championship in 2004)

Gasol - One of the best PFs in the game, great defender and hasn't lost a beat since the trade to LA (Led his team to the 1st round, helped win a championship)

Stoudamire - He has a strong post game, developed an open mid-range jumper, is still one of the most explosive players in the league and plays better defense (Led his team to the WCFs)

Granger - One of the most underrated players in the league, unstoppable on the offensive end and one of the best defenders at his position on the defensive end (Helped his team get to the 1st round, led his team to playoff contention)

Durant - A huge prospect, a scoring machine, but still a good defender

Parker - A good scoring guard, who runs the floor on offense and is the first one back on defense (Led his team to a championship, helped get his team two other titles)

Carter - A great leader (since leaving TO), clutch as they come and finally understanding that defense comes first (Led his team to the 2nd round)

Jefferson - Another stat stuffer like Bosh, better than Bosh on paper, better defender than Bosh on the court (Helped his team get to the 1st round)


I want you to go back and look at the things I've written in bold, DEFENSE and LEADERSHIP, two qualities Bosh lacks to be a Top 20 player in the league, everyone I ranked ahead of Bosh are better defenders and also better leaders than Bosh, to me both of those qualities are more important than his inflated 23-10 stats, btw Al Jefferson is a 23-11 guy and he plays better defense. Until Bosh can prove that he is a above-avg defender and a good leader, he doesn't make my Top 20 list. I wouldn't remove anyone from that list for a guy who just plays the game to put up stats.

FlakeyFool
09-06-2009, 01:32 PM
Wow are you out your mind theres no way bosh is 22nd best player in the league thasts ridiculously low hes better than everyone i have bolded, and that would have him at # 10 where he should be. Putting the guy @ number 22 is just plain dumb.

dirk is heads and toes better than bosh, along with everyone that you bolded.

ink
09-06-2009, 01:41 PM
Finally I was waiting for someone to respond, now listen to the comparisons:

Dirk - Better in every aspect of the game, I don't know why you'd try to even debate this (Led his team to the Finals)

Roy - A great leader the reason why the Blazers have turned things around (Led his team to the 1st round)

D-Will - An underrated player, one of the best defenders at his position and the second best PG in the league (Led his team to the WCFs)

Melo - A better defender, with better offensive skills and now with a true PG showing him the way, he is coming into his own (Led his team to the WCFs)

Pierce - Are you kidding, Pierce has all the offensive tools to be a Top 10 player in the league and he is a great defender (Led his team to a championship)

Yao - When healthy Yao is a Top 10 player, terrific offensive game and a good one-on-one defender (Led his team to the 2nd round)

Billups - He turned around a Denver team headed in the wrong direction with his leadership and defensive mind (Led his team to the WCFs in 2009 and a championship in 2004)

Gasol - One of the best PFs in the game, great defender and hasn't lost a beat since the trade to LA (Led his team to the 1st round, helped win a championship)

Stoudamire - He has a strong post game, developed an open mid-range jumper, is still one of the most explosive players in the league and plays better defense (Led his team to the WCFs)

Granger - One of the most underrated players in the league, unstoppable on the offensive end and one of the best defenders at his position on the defensive end (Helped his team get to the 1st round, led his team to playoff contention)

Durant - A huge prospect, a scoring machine, but still a good defender

Parker - A good scoring guard, who runs the floor on offense and is the first one back on defense (Led his team to a championship, helped get his team two other titles)

Carter - A great leader (since leaving TO), clutch as they come and finally understanding that defense comes first (Led his team to the 2nd round)

Jefferson - Another stat stuffer like Bosh, better than Bosh on paper, better defender than Bosh on the court (Helped his team get to the 1st round)


I want you to go back and look at the things I've written in bold, DEFENSE and LEADERSHIP, two qualities Bosh lacks to be a Top 20 player in the league, everyone I ranked ahead of Bosh are better defenders and also better leaders than Bosh, to me both of those qualities are more important than his inflated 23-10 stats, btw Al Jefferson is a 23-11 guy and he plays better defense. Until Bosh can prove that he is a above-avg defender and a good leader, he doesn't make my Top 20 list. I wouldn't remove anyone from that list for a guy who just plays the game to put up stats.

Yeah yeah we get it. :laugh2: He doesn't play enough D and he doesn't lead well enough. It's not like that disqualifies him from the top 15 or 20 in the league. That also doesn't wipe out all of the other things he brings to his team. Come on, be fair and reasonable. You've made your point.

---------

In response to the thread (not that the rankings we write here actually matter at all), I don't think Bosh is a top 10 player. Definitely top 15 though.

azkarraga
09-06-2009, 01:43 PM
no. he's not

LanceUpperCut
09-06-2009, 01:48 PM
Ya I'd say some were in the top 250. But if he played in the states probly top ten.

Raph12
09-06-2009, 01:51 PM
Yeah yeah we get it. :laugh2: He doesn't play enough D and he doesn't lead well enough. It's not like that disqualifies him from the top 15 or 20 in the league. That also doesn't wipe out all of the other things he brings to his team. Come on, be fair and reasonable. You've made your point.

---------

In response to the thread (not that the rankings we write here actually matter at all), I don't think Bosh is a top 10 player. Definitely top 15 though.

That does disqualify him from the Top 20 on MY list. To me those qualities are more important than any quality Bosh possesses. He doesn't bring anything to the table that the other players I listed above him don't. I wouldn't replace anyone on the list for him, that's just my two cents.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2009, 02:10 PM
i wouldnt go so bold and call pau a great defender.

He has just learned a bit and is now a fine one but yet not great.

Anyways at least he is a best defender than bosh is.

ink
09-06-2009, 02:12 PM
that does disqualify him from the top 20 on my list. To me those qualities are more important than any quality bosh possesses. He doesn't bring anything to the table that the other players i listed above him don't. I wouldn't replace anyone on the list for him, that's just my two cents.

ok.