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Draco
09-02-2009, 03:07 PM
A week ago I posted an article about scorekeepers inflating stats for assists and blocks. Here it is again with the addition of stats that fall in line with the point of the article.
Basically it shows that Rondo and Harris might have benefited from a lil home cookin'. While Rose apparently did not. Good job score keeping crew at the UC. Keep up the good (and honest) work. :clap:

First an excerpt from the article...

The Confessions Of An NBA Scorekeeper
By Tommy Cragg

Alex quickly found that a scorekeeper is given broad discretion over two categories: assists and blocks (steals and rebounds are also open to some interpretation, though not a lot). "In the NBA, an assist is a pass leading directly to a basket," he says. "That's inherently subjective. What does that really mean in practice? The definition is massively variable according to who you talk to. The Jazz guys were pretty open about their liberalities. ... John Stockton averaged 10 assists. Is that legit? It's legit because they entered it. If he's another guy, would he get 10? Probably not."

The bias is plain to see. Just look at the home-road splits. Last season, home teams leaguewide scored 101.58 points per game; road teams, 98.32. That's to be expected: Teams play better at home. What's surprising is that assists and blocks rise disproportionately for home teams — assists by nearly 8 percent, blocks by more than 15 percent. Last year's Nuggets averaged 25 assists at home, only 19.4 on the road. They recorded 7.3 blocks per game at home and just 4.7 outside Denver. (Hell, Chris Andersen swatted 117 shots in 38 games at home against only 58 blocks in 33 games on the road. It was as if he stepped into the Pepsi Center and suddenly turned into Larry Nance.) The reason? People like Alex.
http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

For the 2008-09 season

Harris
Total number of assists in Home Games: 258
Total number of assists in Away Games: 218

Assists Per Game in Home Games: 7.2
Assists Per Game in Away Games: 6.6

Harris had 8.5% increase in assists when playing at Home.

Rondo
Total number of assists in Home Games: 352
Total number of assists in Away Games: 307

Assists Per Game in Home Games: 8.8
Assists Per Game in Away Games: 7.7

Rondo had a 14.6% increase in assists when playing at Home.

Rose
Total number of assists in Home Games: 251
Total number of assists in Away Games: 261

Assists Per Game in Home Games: 6.3
Assists Per Game in Away Games: 6.4

Rose had a 1.4% decrease in assists when playing at Home.

Skeeter91
09-02-2009, 03:19 PM
Great Post never took much consideration into thinking about this before

theuuord
09-02-2009, 03:23 PM
I mean,

you do realize how insignificant this is, right?

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 03:30 PM
I mean,

you do realize how insignificant this is, right?

It will take some time for him to digest.

KH12
09-02-2009, 03:32 PM
That's actually very interesting.

Draco
09-02-2009, 03:34 PM
I mean,

you do realize how insignificant this is, right?

About as insignificant as Harris' career year on a non-playoff team? ;)

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 03:35 PM
Wait a minute, I actually took the time to click the link. Not only does it not mention any of the three point guards mentioned, but, well, yeah, it doesn't talk about any of the three guards. The only thing you are going off is the assumption that Harris and Rondo's assists are being "cooked" while Roses's are not while for all we know, Rose might be afraid of the home crowd. In fact, all examples in this article are from the 90's with the exception of one Anderson citation in parenthesis, a player by the way who is absolutely fueled by the home crowd and otherwise the article pretty much has no bearing on the stats you presented. And if you want to exclude the aspect of being fueled by the crowd, then it's likely just the fact that you get better calls at home than the road. Borderline blocks are foul on the road and a block at home sometimes, but the blocks are not randomly generated.

Fun Fact, players and teams perform better at home.

theuuord
09-02-2009, 03:36 PM
About as insignificant as Harris' career year on a non-playoff team? ;)

nice try. I won't get roped into this with you. answer the question.

MrBigShotBWill
09-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Whats the point of this your a Chi town fan and want to say Rose gets screwed at home?

Sorry you lose, 10 more dimes for away games in a season.

About time though someone posts some rondo stats.Even this tool that made this thread. I know you are sad that rondo is better then rose.

Oh prob also TOOK HIS SAT SCORES AND PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS..

Unlike Rose prob can't even read green eggs and ham.

Slaps
09-02-2009, 03:38 PM
Wait a minute, I actually took the time to click the link. Not only does it not mention any of the three point guards mentioned, but, well, yeah, it doesn't talk about any of the three guards. The only thing you are going off is the assumption that Harris and Rondo's assists are being "cooked" while Roses's are not while for all we know, Rose might be afraid of the home crowd. In fact, all examples in this article are from the 90's with the exception of one Anderson citation in parenthesis, a player by the way who is absolutely fueled by the home crowd and otherwise the article pretty much has no bearing on the stats you presented.

Fun Fact, players and teams perform better at home.So you are saying if a team scores more points at home there PG's pass more? This needs to be looked into and fines should be handed out. :D

Draco
09-02-2009, 03:42 PM
Wait a minute, I actually took the time to click the link. Not only does it not mention any of the three point guards mentioned, but, well, yeah, it doesn't talk about any of the three guards. The only thing you are going off is the assumption that Harris and Rondo's assists are being "cooked" while Roses's are not while for all we know, Rose might be afraid of the home crowd. In fact, all examples in this article are from the 90's with the exception of one Anderson citation in parenthesis, a player by the way who is absolutely fueled by the home crowd and otherwise the article pretty much has no bearing on the stats you presented.

Fun Fact, players and teams perform better at home.

No.. I applied what the article asserts to a sample of players in the league.. much like another dude did with Kevin Durant in this article:
http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=4188

It's simply evidence that supports what the "Alex" stated in the article.

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 03:45 PM
No.. I applied what the article asserts to a sample of players in the league.. much like another dude did with Kevin Durant in this article:
http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=4188

It's simply evidence that supports what the "Alex" stated in the article.

That's not evidence in this case. Evidence would be a select # of games in which the recorded assist total is found to be greater than the actual assist total, which could be found by rewatching games. The only evidence those numbers are is that Rose performs more poorley at home than the other two guards.

Draco
09-02-2009, 03:50 PM
That's not evidence in this case. Evidence would be a select # of games in which the recorded assist total is found to be greater than the actual assist total, which could be found by rewatching games. The only evidence those numbers are is that Rose performs more poorley at home than the other two guards.

Dude.. you don't get it. The stats I posted apply to what the article is about. If you don't agree with the assertion made by the scorekeeper in the article, that's a differen't story. But personally I think the article is pretty compelling.

Vidball
09-02-2009, 03:50 PM
All who have followed the NBA know there are several arenas where home players get the benefit of the doubt stats-wise. Good article.

JordansBulls
09-02-2009, 03:52 PM
A week ago I posted an article about scorekeepers inflating stats for assists and blocks. Here it is again with the addition of stats that fall in line with the point of the article.
Basically it shows that Rondo and Harris might have benefited from a lil home cookin'. While Rose apparently did not. Good job score keeping crew at the UC. Keep up the good (and honest) work. :clap:

First an excerpt from the article...

The Confessions Of An NBA Scorekeeper
By Tommy Cragg

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

For the 2008-09 season

Harris
Total number of assists in Home Games: 258
Total number of assists in Away Games: 218

Assists Per Game in Home Games: 7.2
Assists Per Game in Away Games: 6.6

Harris had 18.5% increase in assists when playing at Home.

Rondo
Total number of assists in Home Games: 352
Total number of assists in Away Games: 307

Assists Per Game in Home Games: 8.8
Assists Per Game in Away Games: 7.7

Rondo had a 14.7% increase in assists when playing at Home.

Rose
Total number of assists in Home Games: 251
Total number of assists in Away Games: 261

Assists Per Game in Home Games: 6.3
Assists Per Game in Away Games: 6.4

Rose had a 3.9% decrease in assists when playing at Home.

Rondo and Harris had better scorers as well.

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 03:55 PM
All who have followed the NBA know there are several arenas where home players get the benefit of the doubt stats-wise. Good article.

You give the benefit of the doubt in ambigious situations, often involving many players such as doubly tipped blocks and some rebounds. Assists can hardly be considered ambigious, even so, not enough to alter an average. Let's say once every 12 games a player will throw up a debatable airball that finds its way to a finishing teammate...things like that.

Draco
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Whats the point of this your a Chi town fan and want to say Rose gets screwed at home?

Sorry you lose, 10 more dimes for away games in a season.

About time though someone posts some rondo stats.Even this tool that made this thread. I know you are sad that rondo is better then rose.

Oh prob also TOOK HIS SAT SCORES AND PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS..

Unlike Rose prob can't even read green eggs and ham.

Why would I think Rose is getting screwed because the UC's scorekeepers are honest? No.. Away game stats are something of a baseline for how scorekeepers should be counting stats. There's no incentive for away team scorekeepers to inflate. The fact that Rose's Away and Home game stats are fairly even suggests that his stats are being fairly tracked. I have no problem with that. Rondo's.. he's just a tad bit overrated now, isn't he. Not saying he's hugely overrated.. just a tad. :D

b_rad23
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Rondo and Harris had better scorers as well.

That's certainly relevant to the topic at hand.

Ace33Bone
09-02-2009, 03:58 PM
This post definitely makes u think what statistitions are doing... Great post

Chronz
09-02-2009, 03:58 PM
I mean,

you do realize how insignificant this is, right?
I wouldnt go that far, its caused quite a stirrup from the online community. An 18% difference is nothing to scoff at but requires more diligent research than simple home/road splits.

Ethix11
09-02-2009, 04:05 PM
Maybe Rose feels a little bit more pressure at home trying to impress? Otherwise he would be more relaxed and have better assists like the other two. Which for a PG is their main focus. To assist the game of basketball, Rondo and Harris, while not coming from their home town cities, as veterans feel less pressure from another crowd that just so happens to be their home fans thus play better.

Vidball
09-02-2009, 04:15 PM
You give the benefit of the doubt in ambigious situations, often involving many players such as doubly tipped blocks and some rebounds. Assists can hardly be considered ambigious, even so, not enough to alter an average. Let's say once every 12 games a player will throw up a debatable airball that finds its way to a finishing teammate...things like that.

Not true at all...assists are passes which lead directly to a basket. Generally one dribble is allowed, however, a judgment call needs to be made. Did a player take two dribbles? Did a player take a dribble, then a step, then complete a move? Did a player hold onto the ball in iso for too long before taking a dribble and a shot? A massive amount of assists are subjective decisions because of an ambiguous rule. The old NBA rule on assists didn't allow an assist to be awarded if the player who made the shot took any dribbles after receiving a pass. There is A LOT of room for interpretation on NBA assists.

Chronz
09-02-2009, 04:19 PM
Assist should be changed man, shots that lead directly to a basket with little creativity required to finish the play. Catch and shoot are obviously fine, dunks are fine, passes that get you to the line should count, and if the player does a up fake on a recovering defender and scores on a jumper it should still count because the scrambling defender was providing help on the passer.

But when the guy has to up fake, crossover, into a crowd of defenders, thats where the line should be drawn. Still this doesnt change much from the statistical world. Assists have always been the most subjective.

Gibby23
09-02-2009, 04:26 PM
Rondo also shoots a better % at home, maybe they count extra baskets or something. Usually players play better at home, thats why home court is such a big deal in the NBA.

Gibby23
09-02-2009, 04:28 PM
Basically the whole team shoots better at home, so they make more shots, that leads to more assists for Rondo at home.

Paul Pierce shoots like 4% better at home, Allen 1.5% better at home, and KG is like 7% better at home. They make more shots, Rondo gets more assists.

Chronz
09-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Basically the whole team shoots better at home, so they make more shots, that leads to more assists for Rondo at home.

Very true

theuuord
09-02-2009, 04:38 PM
I wouldnt go that far, its caused quite a stirrup from the online community. An 18% difference is nothing to scoff at but requires more diligent research than simple home/road splits.

I'm not saying that the scorekeeper home/away differentials are insignificant. That's definitely something to be curious about. What I am saying is that comparing these three guys isn't anything close to proof that Harris and Rondo got undeserved assists or that Rose had to work harder to get his. Loose correlation doesn't equal any sort of causation.

Also maybe my math is faulty but how does 6.6/7.2 = an 18 percent increase? If anything it's half that. Same with 6.4/6.3 and 8.8/7.7.

theuuord
09-02-2009, 04:40 PM
Assist should be changed man, shots that lead directly to a basket with little creativity required to finish the play. Catch and shoot are obviously fine, dunks are fine, passes that get you to the line should count, and if the player does a up fake on a recovering defender and scores on a jumper it should still count because the scrambling defender was providing help on the passer.

But when the guy has to up fake, crossover, into a crowd of defenders, thats where the line should be drawn. Still this doesnt change much from the statistical world. Assists have always been the most subjective.

When I first started playing around with my own version of WS four or five years ago I originally left assists completely off the model because of how subjective they were. Further research on my part proved this to be a dumb idea - after studying about eight seasons I concluded teams with higher assist/shot ratios were far better than teams with worse ones - but the nature of an assist still is a very sketchy and loosely defined metric.

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 04:42 PM
Not true at all...assists are passes which lead directly to a basket. Generally one dribble is allowed, however, a judgment call needs to be made. Did a player take two dribbles? Did a player take a dribble, then a step, then complete a move? Did a player hold onto the ball in iso for too long before taking a dribble and a shot? A massive amount of assists are subjective decisions because of an ambiguous rule. The old NBA rule on assists didn't allow an assist to be awarded if the player who made the shot took any dribbles after receiving a pass. There is A LOT of room for interpretation on NBA assists.

Yeah but there aren't any extra assists being created in this case, just a bunch of judgement calls in situations where if you were to rewatch the game and see the play you would say, oh, there's assist #7, or at least what the keeper at the time believed it to be within a reasonable doubt. In the core example of Van Exel's 23 assists, many of the assists came out of NOWHERE with absolutely no backing, truly PHANTOM assists. These are two different situations at hand.

theuuord
09-02-2009, 04:45 PM
Rondo and Harris had better scorers as well.

Rondo sure did, but between the Nets and the Bulls Ben Gordon is the best pure scorer on either team. Carter is a far superior overall player, but Gordon shot better from everywhere with similar usage.

Vidball
09-02-2009, 04:49 PM
Actually, the amount of points scored and field goals made are only 2-3% lower on the road in the NBA, while assists are down 8%.

IMO, only a subjective stat would decrease that much on the road.

Vidball
09-02-2009, 04:51 PM
Yeah but there aren't any extra assists being created in this case, just a bunch of judgement calls in situations where if you were to rewatch the game and see the play you would say, oh, there's assist #7, or at least what the keeper at the time believed it to be within a reasonable doubt. In the core example of Van Exel's 23 assists, many of the assists came out of NOWHERE with absolutely no backing, truly PHANTOM assists. These are two different situations at hand.

Agreed...I am not saying Phantom assists are created, I am saying home team players generally get the benefit of the doubt. The Pasty White Gangsta (Johnny Stockton) is a prime example of this.

Gibby23
09-02-2009, 04:52 PM
^^ in terms of the Celtics, they take 3 more shots at home and make 3 more. Since Rondo is a ball dominate PG, it's seems fair that he gets 1 more assist on the 3 extra made shots at home.

Draco
09-02-2009, 04:56 PM
I wouldnt go that far, its caused quite a stirrup from the online community. An 18% difference is nothing to scoff at but requires more diligent research than simple home/road splits.

Right.. I'm not sure how to adjust for players shooting better at home and PGs possibly benefitting in assist totals because of it. But here's another piece of the puzzle. It's a good thing we had that conversation about how crappy the Nets are since team FG% doesn't need to be taken into consideration in their case.

BOS Team FG%
49.6 Home
47.3 Away

NJ Team FG%
44.4% Home
45.1% Away

CHI Team FG%
46% Home
45.3% Away

Gibby23
09-02-2009, 04:56 PM
Agreed...I am not saying Phantom assists are created, I am saying home team players generally get the benefit of the doubt. The Pasty White Gangsta (Johnny Stockton) is a prime example of this.

He only averaged .6 more assists at home. Since the Jazz shot better at home and Stockton always had the ball, that also seems fair.

Gibby23
09-02-2009, 04:57 PM
Magic also averahed .6 more assists at home. 11.4 on the road and 12 at home.

Gibby23
09-02-2009, 05:00 PM
Lookin at Devin Harriss's home/away split he also had .6 more at home. .6 seems to be the norm at home.

SteveNash
09-02-2009, 05:06 PM
Could it have something to do with the teams not the players?

theuuord
09-02-2009, 05:08 PM
I still want to know how you calculated these percentages, because it's certainly not the way I learned [(y-x)/x].

Using that method Harris had a 9.1% increase (insignificant), Rondo had a 14.3% increase (maybe significant, depending on his primary surrounding cast), and Rose had a 1.6% decrease (probably insignificant).

Or maybe my way is outdated...

Draco
09-02-2009, 05:08 PM
Could it have something to do with the teams not the players?

.7 FG% is far better at home?

And Rose's assit total and APG decreased by 3%... negligible, but it's still a decrease. So, no.

king4day
09-02-2009, 05:25 PM
I don't think there are more assists created at home. Generally, you win more at home. Meaning, you score more at home. Meaning, you will have more assists.
So just as you see teams always having a better record at home, u'll see other stats improved there too.

SteveNash
09-02-2009, 05:37 PM
.7 FG% is far better at home?

And Rose's assit total and APG decreased by 3%... negligible, but it's still a decrease. So, no.

Well we can't say for certain how they're tallying the votes unless you want to go through every play during the season.

LeBron scores 6 more points away than at home, so it could have nothing to do with scorekeepers.

Draco
09-02-2009, 05:37 PM
I still want to know how you calculated these percentages, because it's certainly not the way I learned [(y-x)/x].

Using that method Harris had a 9.1% increase (insignificant), Rondo had a 14.3% increase (maybe significant, depending on his primary surrounding cast), and Rose had a 1.6% decrease (probably insignificant).

Or maybe my way is outdated...

Percent increase is (A / B) x 100
A = amount of increase (Home - Away)
B = base amount (Away)

In Rose's case
A = amount of decrease

Your way isn't outdated it's just not correct...

zambo4president
09-02-2009, 05:39 PM
Rose is being violated :cry:

Draco
09-02-2009, 05:50 PM
Rose is being violated :cry:

At least we can state that Rose is definately not one of those players who are the recipient of inflated assist totals. And that the supposed best PG in the East (Harris) benefits from inflated assist totals. :D

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 06:11 PM
At least we can state that Rose is definately not one of those players who are the recipient of inflated assist totals. And that the supposed best PG in the East (Harris) benefits from inflated assist totals. :D

No...if anything you can argue that Rose doesn't but you can't say that Harris does.

Draco
09-02-2009, 06:12 PM
Another quote from the same article. Just glad the Bull's organization is on the up and up.


He won't say who issued the commandment, other than that it was someone in basketball operations who helped compile statistical packets for the media. "It was a mid-level guy, not a GM or an assistant GM," he says. Alex believes the suit was acting on his own initiative, though the habit of fudging statistics upward was practically an organizational, if not leaguewide, imperative. "When you get a triple-double, that dramatically increases the potential of our game being shown on ESPN. 'Here are some highlights of Olajuwon, and oh, by the way, they happen to be in Vancouver.' A team like ours was getting zero national media coverage. There's some value in that, even if someone is lighting us up, for marketing and longterm growth."

Draco
09-02-2009, 06:12 PM
No...if anything you can say that Rose doesn't but you can't say that Harris does.

Why not?

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 06:14 PM
Why not?

There's no proof?

Let's picture two of the leagues best baseball players, steroid accusations come out. One has remained the same size since college throughout his career and the other has grown considerably.

It's pretty safe to say that the first never used PEDs but you can't automatically assume that the second has. Harris isn't exempt from the possibility of just playing better at home just as the second player isn't exempt from the possibility of just dilligent nutrition and work outs.

Draco
09-02-2009, 06:17 PM
There's no proof?

Let's picture two of the leagues best baseball players, steroid accusations come out. One has remained the same size since college throughout his career and the other has grown considerably.

It's pretty safe to say that the first never used PEDs but you can't automatically assume that the second has. Harris isn't exempt from the possibility of just playing better at home.

Circumstantial evidence can sometimes be more compelling than direct evidence.. and in this case it is very compelling circumstantial evidence.. an 18.3% increase in assist totals from home games over the total from away games in addition to the the Nets lower FG% at home compared with their FG% away. I don't need to read about an admission from the Nets scorekeeper in this case.

Edit:

How could I forget to mention..

consider all of the above.. in addition (of course) to the confession of a former scorekeeper who suspects a leaguewide imperitive to fudge stats.

mikantsass
09-02-2009, 06:17 PM
As of right now, September 2, 2009, Rondo and Harris are better than Rose. Is that what this thread is supposed to prove? I already knew that

Chronz
09-02-2009, 06:25 PM
Another quote from the same article. Just glad the Bull's organization is on the up and up.
I wouldnt call it on the up, if the Bulls are on the up then the Clippers are the greatest organization in history. The teams that has consistently and most significantly undersold their players "skewable" statistics have been us.

I dont know what else to say other than maybe thats why careers die here. Then again correlation doesnt equal causation so you need actual proof to these assertions as it doesnt tell us which plays were wrongfully credited.

nitric
09-02-2009, 06:27 PM
As of right now, September 2, 2009, Rondo and Harris are better than Rose. Is that what this thread is supposed to prove? I already knew that

Rose is better than Rondo

Chronz
09-02-2009, 06:28 PM
Well we can't say for certain how they're tallying the votes unless you want to go through every play during the season.

LeBron scores 6 more points away than at home, so it could have nothing to do with scorekeepers.

Some truth in that but the scorekeepers have no control over how the player plays. If Bron scores those buckets hes going to get credit for it, if he finds someone for an easy shot inside or a catch and shoot play he gets credit but its on the kickouts with the defense collapsed that the observers define as an assist.

MalkinIsMagic
09-02-2009, 06:29 PM
This is good for people who base their opinions off stats.

Draco
09-02-2009, 06:33 PM
This is good for people who base their opinions off stats.

You think this is just about stats? This is based on a confession from a former scorekeeper.. who gave specific as well as generalized examples.

Chicagofaithful
09-02-2009, 06:37 PM
nice post.... very interesting

Draco
09-02-2009, 06:38 PM
I wouldnt call it on the up, if the Bulls are on the up then the Clippers are the greatest organization in history. The teams that has consistently and most significantly undersold their players "skewable" statistics have been us.

I read an article about Donald Sterling. In it, was something about the Clips organization skewing their players stats downward in an effort to devalue them so that the Clips wouldn't have to pay them big money. I haven't read anything about the Bulls doing that. And it wouldn't seem to be the case if you believe Hinrich and Deng are overpaid.



I dont know what else to say other than maybe thats why careers die here. Then again correlation doesnt equal causation so you need actual proof to these assertions as it doesnt tell us which plays were wrongfully credited.

For me, it doesn't have to. The strength of the argument rests largely on Alex's credibility. And in application the stats fall in line. And what other explanation could there be in the Harris example? Do I think Slam or Dime, or whatever pub it was, made this up? No. Or do I think Alex has an ax to grind with the league? No.

Draco
09-02-2009, 07:56 PM
The Harris/Rose argument seems solid to me.. but the application for blocks regarding Tyrus Thomas, and Brook Lopez doesn't work as well. I took a look at Joakim Noah just for kicks. I don't think these examples of block totals effect the argument for assists in the Harris/Rose argument because I simply can't reconcile the Nets home and away FG%. So the blocks argument appears to stand alone.. and I don't yet have an explanation for the results.

Tyrus Thomas
Total number of Blocks in Home games: 88
Total number of Blocks in Away games: 63
Tyrus had a 39.7% increase in blocks at Home.

Joakim Noah
Total number of Blocks in Home games: 54
Total number of Blocks in Away games: 56
Joakim had a 3.7% decrease in blocks at Home.

Brook Lopez
Total number of Blocks in Home games: 69
Total number of Blocks in Away games: 83
Brook had a 20.2% decrease in blocks at Home.

Chronz
09-02-2009, 07:56 PM
I read an article about Donald Sterling. In it, was something about the Clips organization skewing their players stats downward in an effort to devalue them so that the Clips wouldn't have to pay them big money. I haven't read anything about the Bulls doing that. And it wouldn't seem to be the case if you believe Hinrich and Deng are overpaid.



For me, it doesn't have to. The strength of the argument rests largely on Alex's credibility. And in application the stats fall in line. And what other explanation could there be in the Harris example? Do I think Slam or Dime, or whatever pub it was, made this up? No. Or do I think Alex has an ax to grind with the league? No.
Honestly Im pretty sure your lying, sterling never cared about things like that. And since your basing your opinion heavily on what Alex has said then you should know he too shares this opinion about teams having zero incentive to skew a players stats down. The minimal impact they have on a players bottom line is too small to even change the landscape of how a player is going to get paid. In cases where the teams scorekeepers have "undervalued" their players assist, odds are he wasnt making as good passes at home. However in cases of extreme homecourt bias, it does raise a few questions.

But even then requires more effort than anyone here cares to put forth. Im looking at the #'s myself, but even thats not going to paint the entire picture.

Chronz
09-02-2009, 08:00 PM
The Harris/Rose argument seems solid to me.. but the application for blocks regarding Tyrus Thomas, and Brook Lopez doesn't work as well.. I took a look at Joakim Noah just for kicks.

Tyrus Thomas
Total number of Blocks in Home games: 88
Total number of Blocks in Away games: 63
Tyrus had a 39.7% increase in blocks at Home.

Joakim Noah
Total number of Blocks in Home games: 54
Total number of Blocks in Away games: 56
Joakim had a 3.7% decrease in blocks at Home.

Brook Lopez
Total number of Blocks in Home games: 69
Total number of Blocks in Away games: 83
Brook had a 20.2% decrease in blocks at Home.
Blks are among the rarest occurrences in basketball and are more prone to fluctuations in home vs away splits. I like this kind of analysis for assist and constant events, but not with blocks.

theuuord
09-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Percent increase is (A / B) x 100
A = amount of increase (Home - Away)
B = base amount (Away)

In Rose's case
A = amount of decrease

Your way isn't outdated it's just not correct...

I just double-checked the numbers and found the problem. You're not accounting for the differences in games played home and away.

Harris played 36 games at home as opposed to 33 away, which is why your home numbers are inflated. Conversely, Rose played one more game away than home (and for what it's worth started two more games away than at home), which is why his numbers are higher in your averages as well.

If you do it by the averages, (7.2-6.6)/6.6 = 9.1%, or (6.3-6.4)/6.3 = 1.6%.

Draco
09-02-2009, 08:15 PM
Honestly Im pretty sure your lying, sterling never cared about things like that. And since your basing your opinion heavily on what Alex has said then you should know he too shares this opinion about teams having zero incentive to skew a players stats down. The minimal impact they have on a players bottom line is too small to even change the landscape of how a player is going to get paid. In cases where the teams scorekeepers have "undervalued" their players assist, odds are he wasnt making as good passes at home. However in cases of extreme homecourt bias, it does raise a few questions.

But even then requires more effort than anyone here cares to put forth. Im looking at the #'s myself, but even thats not going to paint the entire picture.

I think I made a mistake on Sterling. I couldn't find what I thought I read in this article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4187729

As far as Alex.. you're right, there's nothing in The Confessions article about an incentive for skewing downward.

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 08:20 PM
I just double-checked the numbers and found the problem. You're not accounting for the differences in games played home and away.

Harris played 36 games at home as opposed to 33 away, which is why your home numbers are inflated. Conversely, Rose played one more game away than home (and for what it's worth started two more games away than at home), which is why his numbers are higher in your averages as well.

If you do it by the averages, (7.2-6.6)/6.6 = 9.1%, or (6.3-6.4)/6.3 = 1.6%.

:clap:

Draco
09-02-2009, 08:35 PM
I just double-checked the numbers and found the problem. You're not accounting for the differences in games played home and away.

Harris played 36 games at home as opposed to 33 away, which is why your home numbers are inflated. Conversely, Rose played one more game away than home (and for what it's worth started two more games away than at home), which is why his numbers are higher in your averages as well.

If you do it by the averages, (7.2-6.6)/6.6 = 9.1%, or (6.3-6.4)/6.3 = 1.6%.

Good catch but I have no idea what you're doing with your math.

Harris played 3 more home games than he did away games. For the sake of argument I'll increase the baseline (Away games) by 3 games worth of assists. I'll use Harris' APG average multiply that by 3 and add it to his baseline total.

Harris' APG on the road is 6.6
6.6 x 3 = 19.8
The baseline for total assists in actual road games played is 237.
237 + 19.8 = 256.8
256.8 represents the adjusted total number of assists for road games or the new baseline.

Percent increase = [(259-256.8)/256.8] x 100 = 0.85%

That's actually an even better number for your argument. I stand corrected.

Draco
09-02-2009, 08:36 PM
:clap:

My mistake.. I'd clap too if I knew what he was doing with his math.

Gambeezy
09-02-2009, 08:38 PM
Fun Fact, players and teams perform better at home.


:clap:

Draco
09-02-2009, 08:41 PM
By what measure.. if you're looking at FG% the Nets performed worse at home. Maybe they prefer to shoot in front of a crowd. :D

theuuord
09-02-2009, 08:43 PM
Good catch but I have no idea what you're doing with your math.

Harris played 3 more home games than he did away games. For the sake of argument I'll increase the baseline (Away games) by 3 games worth of assists. I'll use Harris' APG average multiply that by 3 and add it to his baseline total.

Harris' APG on the road is 6.6
6.6 x 3 = 19.8
The baseline for total assists in actual road games played is 237.
237 + 19.8 = 256.8
256.8 represents the adjusted total number of assists for road games or the new baseline.

Percent increase = [(259-256.8)/256.8] x 100 = 0.85%

That's actually an even better number for your argument. I stand corrected.

The baseline is 218, not 237.
It's pretty simple. ((y-x)/x)*100=percentage.

x=away assists per game
y=home assists per game

((7.2-6.6)/6.6)*100
(0.6/6.6)*100
.09090909*100
percentage =9.09, or 9.1%.

madiaz3
09-02-2009, 08:44 PM
By what measure.. if you're looking at FG% the Nets performed worse at home. Maybe they prefer to shoot in front of a crowd. :D

:up: (Knicks part of me talking)

Draco
09-02-2009, 08:47 PM
The baseline is 218, not 237.
It's pretty simple. ((y-x)/x)*100=percentage.

x=away assists per game
y=home assists per game

((7.2-6.6)/6.6)*100
(0.6/6.6)*100
.09090909*100
percentage =9.09, or 9.1%.

I had my eye on Harris' FT total :rolleyes: My eyes are getting tired looking at these stats.

So let's recalculate...

Harris' APG on the road is 6.6
6.6 x 3 = 19.8
The baseline for total assists in actual road games played is 218.
218 + 19.8 = 237.8
237.8 represents the adjusted total number of assists for road games or the new baseline.

Percent increase = [(259-237.8)/237.8] x 100 = 8.9%

I guess I was right afterall.. just not 18.3% right :p

theuuord
09-02-2009, 08:53 PM
I had my eye on Harris' FT total :rolleyes: My eyes are getting tired looking at these stats.

So let's recalculate...

Harris' APG on the road is 6.6
6.6 x 3 = 19.8
The baseline for total assists in actual road games played is 218.
218 + 19.8 = 237.8
237.8 represents the adjusted total number of assists for road games or the new baseline.

Percent increase = [(259-237.8)/237.8] x 100 = 8.9%

I guess I was right afterall.. just not 18.3% right :p

Kind of, but when you're doing analysis like this it's smarter to just to a raw calculation, instead of adding to a base.

So the best calculation would just be
[[(258/36)-(218/33)]/(218/33)]*100=%

which is nerdy, but most accurate, and most importantly yields a final result of 8.5%, which is lower than both of the original numbers.

Which is a long road to take to say that the number is relatively insignificant.:D

Draco
09-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Kind of, but when you're doing analysis like this it's smarter to just to a raw calculation, instead of adding to a base.

So the best calculation would just be
[[(258/36)-(218/33)]/(218/33)]*100=%

which is nerdy, but most accurate, and most importantly yields a final result of 8.5%, which is lower than both of the original numbers.

Which is a long road to take to say that the number is relatively insignificant.:D

What does 36 and 33 represent?

More importantly though.. recall the article. Harris' numbers still fit.. not as bad as 18.3% but it's dead on with what the article/Alex claims.


What's surprising is that assists and blocks rise disproportionately for home teams — assists by nearly 8 percent,

theuuord
09-02-2009, 08:59 PM
What does 36 and 33 represent?
The number of home and away games played by Harris.


More importantly though.. recall the article. Harris' numbers still fit.. not as bad as 18.3% but it's dead on with what the article/Alex claims.

Which makes it an insignificant number, if the historical trend for assists is 8% higher at home.

Draco
09-02-2009, 09:02 PM
The number of home and away games played by Harris.



Which makes it an insignificant number, if the historical trend for assists is 8% higher at home.

Ok, I'll take a look at that formula a bit later because I still don't know what you're doing.

Who's to say that scorekeepers haven't historically fudged stats? Alex has been doing it as early as 1990's.. I'm not inclined to think he's wrong simply because the trend happened before 1990's. Although I think my argument would be bolstered by confessions from an earlier scorekeeper.. or even just a 2nd one from the same era or current.. Nonetheless, there it's still a solid enough argument for me to believe that scorekeepers probably and more than likely fudge stats.

heattiltheend94
09-02-2009, 09:07 PM
intersting, but the percentages are not significant, and the blocking totals are not valid, since players dont receive over 200 a year, so by getting six more, that would be 3%

Draco
09-02-2009, 09:09 PM
intersting, but the percentages are not significant, and the blocking totals are not valid, since players dont receive over 200 a year, so by getting six more, that would be 3%

How are they not significant? In the Harris example, it is significant because it fits Alex's assertion. This is a guy who isn't just offering a generality based on stats.. he himself inflated those stats, he gave specific examples.

ElMarroAfamado
09-02-2009, 09:10 PM
well yeah when your *** sorry as Rondo and people talk about you like you are the next coming of isiah thomas or something ....there has to be something fishy going on
this makes sense....
people could only defend rondo by saying "he gets his teammates involved" or "he doesnt look for his shot" for so much longer......he will fade into obscurity once the big 3 are disbanded...

mavwar53
09-02-2009, 09:30 PM
Well if you look at most peoples all around stats they usually play well at home and not as well on the road did you take this into consideration at all.

How about tyrus Thomas' stats

Home 2.3 blks, 11.4 pts
Road 1.6 blks, 10.3 pts

I guess he must have got his stats inflated with the same home and road scorers as Rose did.

Draco
09-02-2009, 09:38 PM
So the best calculation would just be
[[(258/36)-(218/33)]/(218/33)]*100=%

which is nerdy, but most accurate, and most importantly yields a final result of 8.5%, which is lower than both of the original numbers.

Ok,I see what you're doing. I like that better than your first formula and better than the one I used.. I'll go with 8.5%

And with that I'm done with numbers for today.

29$JerZ
09-02-2009, 09:44 PM
Interesting read.

Imo players get more calls, benefits and higher stats at home then away. So for Rose to have a less assist percentage compared to away would suggest he performs slightly better away and doesn't at home. That could be a double negative in some eyes.

Diggy_2
09-02-2009, 10:02 PM
Rose is still better lol
im just being a homer

Draco
09-02-2009, 10:11 PM
Well if you look at most peoples all around stats they usually play well at home and not as well on the road did you take this into consideration at all.

How about tyrus Thomas' stats

Home 2.3 blks, 11.4 pts
Road 1.6 blks, 10.3 pts

I guess he must have got his stats inflated with the same home and road scorers as Rose did.

Rose's stats weren't inflated.

Blocks... Not sure what to make of TT or Lopez. Noah's differential is negligible.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10729236&postcount=59

Draco
09-02-2009, 10:18 PM
The Nets example works out well since you don't have to worry about FG%..

As far as Rondo and his 14.6% increase.

BOS Team FG%
49.6 Home
47.3 Away

With only a 2.3% increase in team FG% at home I wouldn't be surprised if Rondo's 14.6% increase in Assist totals (if the adjustment could be made) ended up at a number around that 8% increase that Alex talks about. It should be close to 8%... so you've got what looks like a lot of room for that number to fit.

Edit: I goofed again.. what happens with little sleep. The article refers to team assist totals increasing disproportionately by nearly 8%. But I suppose you could use the same number for individual players?

magichatnumber9
09-02-2009, 10:37 PM
What you feel disrespected because because Rose is not the anonymous choice for best point in the east? Stats are deceiving, and I saw a KG less Celtics led by a triple double averaging(playoffs) point guard with sprained ankles, good night Chicago.

Draco
09-02-2009, 10:48 PM
What you feel disrespected because because Rose is not the anonymous choice for best point in the east? Stats are deceiving, and I saw a KG less Celtics led by a triple double averaging(playoffs) point guard with sprained ankles, good night Chicago.

unanimous... no, I don't care how Rose ranks in his rookie season.

Stats are deceiving.. and to make your point you bring up Rondo's triple double. Good call.

mavwar53
09-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Rose's stats weren't inflated.

Blocks... Not sure what to make of TT or Lopez. Noah's differential is negligible.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10729236&postcount=59

That is my point why would they inflate ty's blocks but not roses assits if your conspiracy is valid.

Draco
09-02-2009, 10:57 PM
That is my point why would they inflate ty's blocks but not roses assits if your conspiracy is valid.

Who knows.. and it's not my conspiracy.

If you read the post in the link you would have noticed the mention of FG%.

So if Harris' assist totals in home games aren't inflated then what accounts for the increase? It's not his teams home game FG% because it's actually worse than their away game FG% Conversely, Harris' assist totals in away games are worse yet his teams FG% in away games are higher... What's the explanation?

As far as not being able to explain blocks.. the only thing you have to look at are the block totals. There isn't a second stat that to support an argument in either direction.

secterm
09-02-2009, 11:03 PM
I could see a player getting the benefit of the doubt on home court on a call every few games or so, but I don't think it makes a monumental difference. Out of the Rondo and Harris examples, perhaps half of it is score keeping and the other half is just that they play a bit better at home.

And the issue that's bigger than any of these is that the Home teams often get the better of the ref's calls on the court, that actually changes the score of the game.

Draco
09-02-2009, 11:06 PM
I could see a player getting the benefit of the doubt on home court on a call every few games or so, but I don't think it makes a monumental difference. Out of the Rondo and Harris examples, perhaps half of it is score keeping and the other half is just that they play a bit better at home.

Same problem...

if Harris is playing better at home and dishing out more assists then why does his team make fewer FGs at home than away?

Raph12
09-03-2009, 12:08 AM
Maybe we should start a "Conspiracy Theory" section for all of these threads. The NBA is ultimately a business, there will always be star-treatment and an arguement could be made for the refs trying to rig games also; so adding the scorekeeper inflating stats is not really a shocker. What it comes down to; it is what it is, like it or not, they will continue to do what they do, because it sells.

Afridi786
09-03-2009, 12:15 AM
Rose was a rookie, everyone wants to **** on rookies even at home.

Storch
09-03-2009, 01:12 AM
i say who cares.

Chronz
09-03-2009, 02:06 AM
I think I made a mistake on Sterling. I couldn't find what I thought I read in this article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4187729

As far as Alex.. you're right, there's nothing in The Confessions article about an incentive for skewing downward.

To be honest I havent even read the whole thing, but hes answered a few questions about it. And shied away from a few more

Raps08-09 Champ
09-03-2009, 02:11 AM
Didn't the Nets play worse at home and play better when away for over half the season?

Does that mean NJ hates the Nets and everyone else like them?

Chronz
09-03-2009, 02:25 AM
Check out Hollingers words in 2005:


I studied this in a previous season and scorekeeper bias is definitely an issue -- the home scorekeeper in Vancouver, whoever it was, handed them out like Halloween candy, which is part of the reason Bibby's assists dropped so much when he went to Sacto. Not sure if that's the issue in GS or it's just the Warriors' total suckitude on the road.



Didn't the Nets play worse at home and play better when away for over half the season?

Does that mean NJ hates the Nets and everyone else like them?

Its a complicated subject that much is clear

rabzouz 96
09-03-2009, 07:57 AM
Who knows.. and it's not my conspiracy.

If you read the post in the link you would have noticed the mention of FG%.

So if Harris' assist totals in home games aren't inflated then what accounts for the increase? It's not his teams home game FG% because it's actually worse than their away game FG% Conversely, Harris' assist totals in away games are worse yet his teams FG% in away games are higher... What's the explanation?

As far as not being able to explain blocks.. the only thing you have to look at are the block totals. There isn't a second stat that to support an argument in either direction.

i also think that the blocks make the theorie a bit ridiculous because why should they just "inflate" assist stats or why should chicago just "inflate" their blocks.
but hey this is pro sports so ill give it a chance.
now what would further interest me is if harris and rondo also had more assists at home in,say, the last 2 seasons and how does it look with the other players on the nets/celtics rosters and their assist home and away numbers.

69centers
09-03-2009, 08:28 AM
Assists, blocks, and stats like that can easily be reviewed, disputed, and/or confirmed through video replay. There's now way scorekeepers are going to tinker with it or be biased at home. This is a ridiculous thread and issue.

Sportfan
09-03-2009, 08:40 AM
i dont really think its that big a deal :shrug:

theuuord
09-03-2009, 09:43 AM
Rose's stats weren't inflated.

You can't say that for sure just by looking at H/A splits. You'd have to break down every single play home and away over the course of the season and tally up the questionable calls.
It's possible that Rose actually played worse at home. It's also possible that he didn't receive the benefit of the doubt. But just staring at the numbers won't tell you anything.

Also for what it's worth the Bulls averaged 1.5 more assists at home than away this year overall. Not to mention that the last four years the Bulls have had a fairly higher amount of assists home than away. So the bias you speak of that Chicago scorekeepers don't have may in fact exist. However, like I said earlier, it's not concrete.

Either way if I were you I'd edit my original post to reflect the true numbers of all players and recognize those differences.

Edit: seems you did edit Harris and Rondo, but I think Rose's decrease is still more than it should be. My rough calculation was 1.6%, but it may be a little higher or lower.

bostncelts34
09-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Who's to say Rondo/Harris don't feed off the crowd better, and get what .5 more assist for harris, and 1 more assist per game for rondo. Thats pretty insignificant. Maybe Rose gets butterfly's playing in front of his home team? There is a million ways to go with this. Im not saying your point wasn't interesting, just insignificant.

Lo Porto
09-03-2009, 10:14 AM
That's why the biggest stat everyone should track is how much a guy leads his teams to a W. I've always thought that when certain guys get a reputation for blocks, steals, assists, etc. that their stat people just give them credit for stuff they didn't deserve. Someone like Camby gets a block for something that was really a strip. Jordan would get credit for steals that Paxson actually should have gotten credit for. It's all "bo-bo", but the W stat is most important.

KnicksorBust
09-03-2009, 11:20 AM
Interesting read. I would definately be willing to accept the fact that some players get a few gimme stats during the year. However, the difference is pretty negligible in my mind. Especially over the course of a whole season. I find it hard to believe that it would add even one full point to any season average statistic. Also, it's not like it effects games or anything.

I mean I agree with people that a lot of it is just the natural improvement of playing at home. You can find that in many baseball players as well and batting average is not exactly a arbitary statistic.

rabzouz 96
09-03-2009, 11:43 AM
That's why the biggest stat everyone should track is how much a guy leads his teams to a W. I've always thought that when certain guys get a reputation for blocks, steals, assists, etc. that their stat people just give them credit for stuff they didn't deserve. Someone like Camby gets a block for something that was really a strip. Jordan would get credit for steals that Paxson actually should have gotten credit for. It's all "bo-bo", but the W stat is most important.
and how do you measure that? thats a very subjective thing to keep track of and arguable.

Lo Porto
09-03-2009, 11:55 AM
and how do you measure that? thats a very subjective thing to keep track of and arguable.

Robert Horry never led in any stat, but his teams were always winners. Tony Parker has less stats than most PG's, but his teams win because he plays smart down the stretch. Winning is easy to track. Stats have some significance, but there is more to be said of the guys who are just winners.

theuuord
09-03-2009, 12:21 PM
Robert Horry never led in any stat, but his teams were always winners. Tony Parker has less stats than most PG's, but his teams win because he plays smart down the stretch. Winning is easy to track. Stats have some significance, but there is more to be said of the guys who are just winners.

Tony Parker has great stats.

Robert Horry played on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. He followed winning, not the other way around. It worked great for him though.

Draco
09-03-2009, 12:37 PM
You can't say that for sure just by looking at H/A splits. You'd have to break down every single play home and away over the course of the season and tally up the questionable calls.
It's possible that Rose actually played worse at home. It's also possible that he didn't receive the benefit of the doubt. But just staring at the numbers won't tell you anything.

Since I've been looking at FG% to support my argument.. I'll do it again. Rose shot 47% at home and 48% away. That difference is proportional to his -1.4% decrease in assist totals. So maybe Rose does play just a tad worse at home than he does away. But the percentages aren't significant for me to suspect inflation according to what Alex said.



Also for what it's worth the Bulls averaged 1.5 more assists at home than away this year overall. Not to mention that the last four years the Bulls have had a fairly higher amount of assists home than away. So the bias you speak of that Chicago scorekeepers don't have may in fact exist. However, like I said earlier, it's not concrete.

1.5 isn't very close to 8.



Either way if I were you I'd edit my original post to reflect the true numbers of all players and recognize those differences.

Edit: seems you did edit Harris and Rondo, but I think Rose's decrease is still more than it should be. My rough calculation was 1.6%, but it may be a little higher or lower.

I'm getting -1.4% for Rose.

Rondo played the same number of home and away games.. what's there to edit?

theuuord
09-03-2009, 12:47 PM
Since I've been looking at FG% to support my argument.. I'll do it again. Rose shot 47% at home and 48% away. That difference is proportional to his -1.4% decrease in assist totals. So maybe Rose does play just a tad worse at home than he does away. But the percentages aren't significant for me to suspect inflation according to what Alex said.

Again, this isn't a matter of Alex's opinion or not. He's not a Chicago scorekeeper. He hasn't checked the play-by-play. There's way more factors here than what we want to see.



1.5 isn't very close to 8.

Percent isn't very close to raw numbers, either. I'm gonna guess you're not going into math for school. :p I also mistyped (or read it wrong initially). The Bulls had 21.6 assists at home and 20.6 away, or a 5% increase. The year before there was a 3%, the year before that a 12% increase, the year before that an 8% increase. Nothing really significantly different about those numbers.




I'm getting -1.4% for Rose.
Sounds right.


Rondo played the same number of home and away games.. what's there to edit?

You're right, Rondo's were correct I'm pretty sure. But either way it was correct the first time then.

Draco
09-03-2009, 12:59 PM
Again, this isn't a matter of Alex's opinion or not. He's not a Chicago scorekeeper. He hasn't checked the play-by-play. There's way more factors here than what we want to see.

You've missed the point.. Rose shot 47% at home and 48% away. That difference is proportional to his -1.4% decrease in assist totals. Alex doesn't have to be Chicago's scorekeeper.




Percent isn't very close to raw numbers, either. I'm gonna guess you're not going into math for school. :p I also mistyped (or read it wrong initially). The Bulls had 21.6 assists at home and 20.6 away, or a 5% increase. The year before there was a 3%, the year before that a 12% increase, the year before that an 8% increase. Nothing really significantly different about those numbers.

My mistake.. The Bulls are also a jump shooting team so perhaps that has a lot to do with it. The 3% (if I'm following the order correctly) was their crappy 33 win season. The 12% was their 49 win season.

theuuord
09-03-2009, 01:11 PM
You've missed the point.. Rose shot 47% at home and 48% away. That difference is proportional to his -1.4% decrease in assist totals. Alex doesn't have to be Chicago's scorekeeper.

You can't look at proportions of two completely different skills and then assume everything goes down equally. Not every stat rises a certain % at home and not every stat declines a certain % away.
There's not much correlation (or, more importantly, causation) because they're two different facets of basketball ability.



My mistake.. The Bulls are also a jump shooting team so perhaps that has a lot to do with it. The 3% (if I'm following the order correctly) was their crappy 33 win season. The 12% was their 49 win season.

Yes, that is correct.

jim51990
09-03-2009, 01:11 PM
rondo >>>rose
harris>>rose
nelson>rose
rose

AFlagRules
09-03-2009, 01:18 PM
rondo >>>rose
harris>>rose
nelson>rose
rose

Calderon > Your entire list combined..

Draco
09-03-2009, 01:31 PM
You can't look at proportions of two completely different skills and then assume everything goes down equally. Not every stat rises a certain % at home and not every stat declines a certain % away.
There's not much correlation (or, more importantly, causation) because they're two different facets of basketball ability.

If it were possible that Rose played worse at home (as you suggested) then his statistics bear that out. Both FG% and in percetange decrease in assist totals. Simply put; Rose's FG% dipped slightly. Rose's assist totals dipped slightly.

Yes, making assists and shooting are two different facets of basketball ability. And if you're suggesting that Rose might play worse at home then lets look at some statistics to see if that's true... What answer are you looking for?

Gibby23
09-03-2009, 02:13 PM
Almost everyone on the Nets shot more shots and made more shots at home except Vince Carter. If they shoot more at home, the PG will get more assists at home.

nygiants242
09-03-2009, 02:16 PM
Calderon > Your entire list combined..

Um.. No.

Chronz
09-03-2009, 02:50 PM
Robert Horry never led in any stat, but his teams were always winners.
Michael Jordon led in alot of stats and he always won, when he had players who put up better stats than his garbage day players who put up horrible stats.

Stats play a large role in winning. If you dont see that, then your in the wrong thread.


Tony Parker has less stats than most PG's, but his teams win because he plays smart down the stretch. Winning is easy to track. Stats have some significance, but there is more to be said of the guys who are just winners.

TP also has the best stats than most PG's, whats your point. Winning is easy to track, quantifying a players contribution to that winning team isnt, it REQUIRES statistics.

Quick who gave his team the best chance of winning, the guy who nailed the last second shot and shot 2-18 or the guy who missed the game winning shot but shot 10-14?

rabzouz 96
09-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Robert Horry never led in any stat, but his teams were always winners. Tony Parker has less stats than most PG's, but his teams win because he plays smart down the stretch. Winning is easy to track. Stats have some significance, but there is more to be said of the guys who are just winners.

thats what i mean.
these players had luck to be on the teams they were on. others like devin harris dont.
its not about the players but about the teams. change em against similar players and these teams will be <s succesfull and the succesfull players on bad teams will be as bad. for example trade parker for devin harris. after the trade the spurs will be in the same w-l range and the nets will be in the same w-l range. it takes nothing. 2 seasons ago trade pierce aainst carter. celtics will still win the ship and nets will still suck. the same, the team around you is what makes you win or lose,the impact of a sole player is very debatable and subjective

theuuord
09-03-2009, 04:59 PM
Quick who gave his team the best chance of winning, the guy who nailed the last second shot and shot 2-18 or the guy who missed the game winning shot but shot 10-14?

People lose sight of this soooooooooo much.

SteveNash
09-03-2009, 05:16 PM
Kirk Hinrich 4.3 APG at home, 3.4 APG away. 26.4% benefit.

Chicago scorekeeper anti-black?

Draco
09-03-2009, 05:39 PM
Almost everyone on the Nets shot more shots and made more shots at home except Vince Carter. If they shoot more at home, the PG will get more assists at home.

Good catch... except to suggest that if the team shoots more and makes more then the PG will get more assists.

An imperfect way to adjust for Carter is to ignore his contributions. And it only makes sense to do the same for Harris.

Estimated Team (w/o Carter or Harris) Home FG% = 45.41%
Estimated Team (w/o Carter or Harris) Away FG% = 43.62%

That's a 1.79% increase in Team FG% when the Team (minus Carter and Harris) plays at Home
Harris had an 8.5% increase in Assist totals when playing at Home.

The question is whether the 1.79% increase is in proportion to the 8.5% increase. I'm not sure.

Chronz
09-03-2009, 06:05 PM
Kirk Hinrich 4.3 APG at home, 3.4 APG away. 26.4% benefit.

Chicago scorekeeper anti-black?

lmfao

youve outdone yourself

Gibby23
09-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Good catch... except to suggest that if the team shoots more and makes more then the PG will get more assists.

An imperfect way to adjust for Carter is to ignore his contributions. And it only makes sense to do the same for Harris.

Estimated Team (w/o Carter or Harris) Home FG% = 45.41%
Estimated Team (w/o Carter or Harris) Away FG% = 43.62%

That's a 1.79% increase in Team FG% when the Team (minus Carter and Harris) plays at Home
Harris had an 8.5% increase in Assist totals when playing at Home.

The question is whether the 1.79% increase is in proportion to the 8.5% increase. I'm not sure.


I don't think it matters much. D Fish averages 3.7 apg at home and 2.7apg on the road. That is like a 30% increase at home. Most players play better at home. I bet next year D rose averages more assists at home.

Draco
09-03-2009, 06:31 PM
I don't think it matters much. D Fish averages 3.7 apg at home and 2.7apg on the road. That is like a 30% increase at home. Most players play better at home. I bet next year D rose averages more assists at home.

The Lakers shot 47.49% at Home and 47.33% Away. I don't know if any adjustments need to be made for players similar to Vince Carter. I'm not familiar with their roster to that level of detail. And Fish is getting a 39% boost in Assist totals. Hmm. Fish is shooting 41.38% at Home verse 43.6% Away. If he's playing better at home then He's REALLY turning it on when it on with his assists. I just don't know how the team is benefitting from Fish's listed assist numbers.