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View Full Version : The Top 100: James, Bryant remain at the head of the class



td0tsfinest
08-31-2009, 01:12 PM
http://www.probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=709



1. LeBron James, Cleveland - The King may not shake your hand if you get the better of him, but pound-for-pound, individually, no one in the league currently does. He figures to only improve over the next five years, so hopefully he'll get all cartoonish and chase averaging a triple-double in a season in addition to his quest for a title, global icon status and world domination.

2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers - You know he'll be driven to win three more now, right? To top Mike. Jordan was 33 when he won his fourth ring, while Bryant captured his at 30, recently celebrating his 31st birthday on Aug. 23. He's got a stacked team, the will and the skills, so even though his scoring average has dropped over the past four seasons, he's reached the point where winning it all is all that matters. It will be fun to see how the next five years play out.

3. Chris Paul, New Orleans - He's the NBA's Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao rolled into one. Lightning-fast, technically sound, competitive to a point he can be borderline nasty while packing a punch that belies his size, he's widely regarded as the best at his position. Paul rightfully expressed frustration after watching his team get humiliated by Denver during the playoffs, but should be charged up enough by the tweaks that have been made to build on last season's monster numbers (22.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, 2.8 spg).

4. Dwyane Wade, Miami - Suffering those unfortunate injuries to his left shoulder and leff knee ruined two seasons, but in 2008-09, the magic returned. From playing super sixth man at the Olympics to averaging a career-high 30.2 points a game for his first scoring title, Wade served notice that he intends to remain one of the NBA's biggest forces. Whether he intends to remain in Miami is still up in the air, but you can expect him to help his bargaining position by maintaing his current form.

5. Dwight Howard, Orlando - The strides he's made on the offensive end haven't come fast enough for some critics, but rest assured, he's made progress. What makes the 23-year-old truly special is how dominant he is despite being an unfinished product, controlling the game on the boards and defensive end the way few in the game's history have.

6. Tim Duncan, San Antonio - The seven games he missed last season were his most since 2004-05, a testament to how durable he's been once he hit his 30s. Expect Gregg Popovich to be more careful with him from here on out, resting him during back-to-backs to keep him fresh for May and June. Last season's numbers were down a bucket and a board from his career averages due to the decreased minutes, but he's still a good bet to rack up another season of 19 and 10, continuing his double-double streak to 13 -- every year he's been in the league.

7. Chris Bosh, Toronto - He'll have to deal with questions about his future in Canada all season, but given that he's consistently around 23 and 10 for the past four seasons, don't expect a dip in performance. If anything, he should rise to the occasion to solidify his stance as one of the top prizes on the 2010 arms race, especially if bulking up -- he's working to start the season at 250 -- agrees with him.

8. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas - For all the grief he catches for often coming up short in key situations, Nowitzki is a lock Hall-of-Famer who has averaged 20 points and eight rebounds as the league's best shooting power forward for 10 straight years. Skipping the European Championships may have been a bummer, but should help lengthen his shelf life in what should be a big season for his Mavericks.

9. Kevin Garnett, Boston - If healthy, and you have to believe he will be given the time he's had to recuperate, Garnett is still just a year removed from garnering MVP consideration as the league's top defender. His numbers have suffered from sharing the wealth in Boston, but his resume sure hasn't. Even at 33, he's still one of the NBA's most dynamic game-changers when he's right.

10. Brandon Roy, Portland - Ron Artest wasn't the only one to notice how good B-Roy has gotten, calling him the toughest player in the league to guard. While that's debatable, there's no denying Roy has turned into a monster, capping his finest season with his first playoff appearance, hanging 26.7 points a game on Ron-Ron and the Rockets. Roy signed a max-dollar extension that will keep him in Portland until at least 2014, and at the rate he's going, Blazers fans can realistically aspire to reach an NBA Finals or two within that time frame.

11. Tony Parker, San Antonio

12. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City

13. Paul Pierce, Boston

14. Deron Williams, Utah

15. Carmelo Anthony, Denver

16. Pau Gasol, L.A. Lakers

17. Chauncey Billups, Denver

18. Antawn Jamison, Washington

19. Danny Granger, Indiana

20. Amar'e Stoudemire, Phoenix

21. Joe Johnson, Atlanta

22. Al Jefferson, Minnesota

23. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia

24. Caron Butler, Washington

25. David West, New Orleans

26. Devin Harris, New Jersey

27. Carlos Boozer, Utah

28. Vince Carter, Orlando

29. Shaquille O'Neal, Cleveland

30. Derrick Rose, Chicago

31. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio

32. Rashard Lewis, Orlando

33. Steve Nash, Phoenix

34. Kevin Martin, Sacramento

35. Rajon Rondo, Boston

36. Gilbert Arenas, Washington

37. Tracy McGrady, Houston

38. Baron Davis, L.A. Clippers

39. LaMarcus Aldridge, Portland

40. Ron Artest, L.A. Lakers

41. Hedo Turkoglu, Toronto

42. Josh Smith, Atlanta

43. Elton Brand, Philadelphia

44. Richard Jefferson, San Antonio

45. O.J. Mayo, Memphis

46. Michael Redd, Milwaukee

47. Stephen Jackson, Golden State

48. Emeka Okafor, New Orleans

49. Jose Calderon, Toronto

50. Jason Kidd, Dallas

51. Monta Ellis, Golden State

52. Josh Howard, Dallas

53. Rudy Gay, Memphis

54. Ray Allen, Boston

55. Lamar Odom, L.A. Lakers

56. Mehmet Okur, Utah

57. Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers

58. Jeff Green, Oklahoma City

59. David Lee, New York

60. Jason Richardson, Phoenix

61. Tayshaun Prince, Detroit

62. Richard Hamilton, Detroit

63. Jason Terry, Dallas

64. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City

65. Ben Gordon, Detroit

66. Shawn Marion, Dallas

67. Andre Miller, Portland

68. Allen Iverson, unattached

69. Nene, Denver

70. Andrea Bargnani, Toronto

71. Andrew Bynum, L.A. Lakers

72. Mo Williams, Cleveland

73. Brook Lopez, New Jersey

74. Eric Gordon, L.A. Clippers

75. Al Horford, Atlanta

76. Troy Murphy, Indiana

77. Marvin Williams, Atlanta

78. J.R. Smith, Denver

79. John Salmons, Chicago

80. Andrew Bogut, Milwaukee

81. Rodney Stuckey, Detroit

82. Jameer Nelson, Orlando

83. Al Thornton, L.A. Clippers

84. Greg Oden, Portland

85. Boris Diaw, Charlotte

86. Al Harrington, New York

87. Charlie Villanueva, Detroit

88. Zach Randolph, Memphis

89. Marcus Camby, L.A. Clippers

90. Thaddeus Young, Philadelphia

91. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte

92. Trevor Ariza, Houston

93. Jermaine O'Neal, Miami

94. Luis Scola, Houston

95. Chris Kaman, L.A. Clippers

96. Ronnie Brewer, Utah

97. Andris Biedrins, Golden State

98. Paul Millsap, Utah

99. Aaron Brooks, Houston

100. T.J. Ford, Indiana

EDIT:
As requested here is the breakdown per team:

LAC:6
LAL:5
DAL:5
UTA:5
DET:5
ORL:4
SAS:4
TOR:4
BOS:4
POR:4
DEN:4
ATL:4
HOU:4
Cle:3
NO: 3
OKC:3
PHI:3
MEM:3
WAS:3
IND:3
PHX:3
GS: 3
MIA:2
NJ: 2
CHI:2
MIL:2
NY: 2
CHA:2
MIN:1
SAC:1

The Clippers have the most players on that list (B.Davis, Griffin, Camby, Gordon, Thornton & Kaman) and the T-Wolves and Kings are tied for last (Jefferson and Martin)

Gambeezy
08-31-2009, 01:17 PM
I like Paul, he's certainly top 5 with Dwight. But, after what Wade did last year, I see no argument that doesn't put Wade in the top 3. And if I were a homer I'd say he's #1, but I'm not. He should certainly be top 3 though.

ko8e24
08-31-2009, 01:19 PM
yes, mamba with 3 more titles, 3 yrs of not winning the title, and then 1 more title after that. 20 seasons, 8 titles. :)

Raps18-19 Champ
08-31-2009, 01:26 PM
This list is BS.

No Bynum or Bargnani in top 10.

But I'm going to laugh when people start complaining about Bosh being over Garnett, Roy, Nowitzki and other.

theuuord
08-31-2009, 01:42 PM
This list is BS.

No Bynum or Bargnani in top 10.

But I'm going to laugh when people start complaining about Bosh being over Garnett, Roy, Nowitzki and other.

Well get your chuckles in.
It's a decent enough list, I'd switch a few players here and there (yes, Bosh would be out) but for the most part that's a solid top 10.

theuuord
08-31-2009, 01:43 PM
FWIW Bargnani is 70 and Bynum 71.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-31-2009, 01:45 PM
^I was joking around for both parts.

theuuord
08-31-2009, 01:47 PM
^I was joking around for both parts.

I know.

ink
08-31-2009, 01:47 PM
FWIW Bargnani is 70 and Bynum 71.

Which is exactly where they should be. I always see them as two sides of the same developing coin. Lots of promise to both of them.

asandhu23
08-31-2009, 01:49 PM
you would think Monta Ellis would be higher but oh well

theuuord
08-31-2009, 01:49 PM
As an objective fan, I'm mad that Lopez is miles behind Rose & Mayo and stuck behind Westbrook as well.

zo#33
08-31-2009, 01:52 PM
Steve Nash at 33!?

bogdanrom
08-31-2009, 01:52 PM
Whoa whoa whoa. Gerald Wallace at 91? WTF? He is definitely better than that. I think he can easily be in the top 75, maybe top 50. Last season he averaged 16.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 2.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, and .9 BPG. SO he doesn't have the perimeter game, but he makes it up with crazy athleticism and good defense.

GoNY
08-31-2009, 02:00 PM
Having Gerald Wallace at #91 is a joke. It's laughable looking at some of the guys ahead of him.

GoNY
08-31-2009, 02:01 PM
Whoa whoa whoa. Gerald Wallace at 91? WTF? He is definitely better than that. I think he can easily be in the top 75, maybe top 50. Last season he averaged 16.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 2.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, and .9 BPG. SO he doesn't have the perimeter game, but he makes it up with crazy athleticism and good defense.

Agreed.

randomness
08-31-2009, 02:04 PM
Lots of rookies after top 100.

Hustla23
08-31-2009, 02:15 PM
Another bad list.

It should read:

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Kobe

and the rest is a crap shoot

reemy
08-31-2009, 02:16 PM
blake griffin was like 50 sumtin....:facepalm:

BlondeBomber41
08-31-2009, 02:19 PM
Dirk behind Chris Bosh is ridiculous.

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 02:35 PM
only thing i would change is kobe and lebron after all he is the reigning champion

blazerman
08-31-2009, 02:36 PM
Bosh is a bit high, I would have KG and Dirk ahead of him probably Roy too but the other two for sure.

Good thread.

theuuord
08-31-2009, 02:37 PM
Another bad list.

It should read:

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Kobe

and the rest is a crap shoot

Switch Kobe & Howard. After that I'd take Duncan and Roy. After that it's a crapshoot.

Bruno
08-31-2009, 02:39 PM
When LeBron, Bryant, and Wade are as close as they are, you give it to the finals MVP. No one said Shaq was the best player in '97 because his numbers were better than Jordans; you give it to the champ.

ko8e24
08-31-2009, 02:41 PM
Another bad list.

It should read:

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Kobe

and the rest is a crap shoot


:rolleyes:

lets just say that 2 of those guys, are champions, and one of those 2 is already one of the greatest of all time.

Shady66
08-31-2009, 02:44 PM
Blake Griffen should not be in this list lmao, bosh is too high, joe johnsons too low, and Crash is wayy too low

JordansBulls
08-31-2009, 02:47 PM
How the **** is Jamison ahead of Amare?

*Superman*
08-31-2009, 02:50 PM
Nelson at 82?

Anyone know which team has the most players on the list?

BTW Kobe>LeBron.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 03:09 PM
Well at least Tyrus Thomas was considered

bigsams50
08-31-2009, 03:18 PM
Gerald Wallace is waaaay to low

Shady66
08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
How the **** is Jamison ahead of Amare?

At first i thought it was based on last season, but then i saw blake their, so i have no idea lol

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
Another bad list.

It should read:

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Kobe

and the rest is a crap shoot

wow you and the urod are haters kobe#1 haha

theuuord
08-31-2009, 03:21 PM
wow you and the urod are haters kobe#1 haha

I love Kobe. it's Kobe's fanboys I have trouble with.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-31-2009, 03:24 PM
i love kobe. It's kobe's fanboys i have trouble with.

+1.

*Superman*
08-31-2009, 03:28 PM
Kobe(Magic fans have seen both of them, and what Kobe wants, he gets...My God is he skilled.)
LeBron(The main difference for me between Kobe and LeBron is that he needs a killer jumpshot like Kobe, that's the only way i see him better then him.)
Wade(Easily the best after Kobe and LeBron are gone.)
Paul(for a PG, having those stats is impressive.)
Howard.(As much as i hate putting him here, Paul is a better overall player of right now. Dwight gets some solid offense then it will be Howard, Paul)

ManRam
08-31-2009, 03:29 PM
Stuckey ahead of Jam-Jam?? Haha. I can't believe he's in the 80s. Could only imagine where he'd be if he didn't get injured.

Bosh is way to high. I'd take the next 4 guys over him, and Pau, Melo and Deron have real good arguments as well. Could get real nit-picky...but whatever.

And adding onto what Superman said...even after seeing both Kobe, and LeBron...and seeing Kobe beat us...LeBron required a hell of a lot more attention, game planning and effort than Kobe did. I'd rather play Kobe on the Cavs, than LeBron on the Cavs any day of the week.

KmB728
08-31-2009, 03:32 PM
Rondo ranked higher than Ray Allen?

ManRam
08-31-2009, 03:37 PM
Rondo ranked higher than Ray Allen?

If it was the other way around, I'd be outraged. At this point in their careers, Rondo is by far the better all around player. Allen is a one dimensional scorer. Hell, we put JJ on him vs. you guys...because we knew all Ray Ray would do was run around screens. He's too predictable. Can't take it to the hoop enough...or create his shot off the dribble. Defensively he's slowing down to. I love Rondo, wouldn't mind seeing him around 25...ahead of Harris.

*Superman*
08-31-2009, 03:38 PM
Stuckey ahead of Jam-Jam?? Haha. I can't believe he's in the 80s. Could only imagine where he'd be if he didn't get injured.

Bosh is way to high. I'd take the next 4 guys over him, and Pau, Melo and Deron have real good arguments as well. Could get real nit-picky...but whatever.

And adding onto what Superman said...even after seeing both Kobe, and LeBron...and seeing Kobe beat us...LeBron required a hell of a lot more attention, game planning and effort than Kobe did. I'd rather play Kobe on the Cavs, than LeBron on the Cavs any day of the week.

Yeah while i was reading the list i was like WTF where's Jameer, well the reason why LeBron gets so much attention is because he is the team. No one on his squad stepped up to help him(nor did i think he gave them a chance). On the Lakers, with Kobe they got Pau, Odom, Fisher, Trevor so the attention can't only be on Kobe because those other guys will kill you, and they added Artest, ****.

ManRam
08-31-2009, 03:42 PM
Yeah while i was reading the list i was like WTF where's Jameer, well the reason why LeBron gets so much attention is because he is the team. No one on his squad stepped up to help him(nor did i think he gave them a chance). On the Lakers, with Kobe they got Pau, Odom, Fisher, Trevor so the attention can't only be on Kobe because those other guys will kill you, and they added Artest, ****.

I agree...100%. But I think that that's just a testement to how amazing LeBron is. No one could do as much as he can do with just as little. That's why I think he is the best player in the game. The best record in the league...with that supporting cast????? That's nuts. He's unstoppable. No one can take over a game like he can.

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 03:45 PM
I love Kobe. it's Kobe's fanboys I have trouble with.

and thats why you have him fourth on your list hahaha at you saying chris paul is better then kobe bryant... go lakers 73-9 haters!:clap:

Shady66
08-31-2009, 03:45 PM
^ other than D wade. look at D wades supporting cast, he litterally has to do EVERYTHING for his team to have a chance

Raps18-19 Champ
08-31-2009, 03:46 PM
If it was the other way around, I'd be outraged. At this point in their careers, Rondo is by far the better all around player. Allen is a one dimensional scorer. Hell, we put JJ on him vs. you guys...because we knew all Ray Ray would do was run around screens. He's too predictable. Can't take it to the hoop enough...or create his shot off the dribble. Defensively he's slowing down to. I love Rondo, wouldn't mind seeing him around 25...ahead of Harris.

If he is so predictable, why does he get so much daggers in the clutch?

*Superman*
08-31-2009, 03:47 PM
I agree...100%. But I think that that's just a testement to how amazing LeBron is. No one could do as much as he can do with just as little. That's why I think he is the best player in the game. The best record in the league...with that supporting cast????? That's nuts. He's unstoppable. No one can take over a game like he can.

Well you were saying how LeBron gets so much attention, I said why, lol, I see what your talking about, don't get me wrong, the Kobe and LeBron for #1 is really close, I guess it's just your opinion on who should be 1 because its that damn close. I still think that LeBron needs that jumpshot. Just like people want to say Dwight needs a better offensive game even tho he averages 20ppg.

*Superman*
08-31-2009, 03:50 PM
^ other than D wade. look at D wades supporting cast, he litterally has to do EVERYTHING for his team to have a chance

Yeah Cavs cast> Heat cast.

But IMO if you were to put Dwade on the Cavs, they wouldn't be the number 1 seed last year. So, LeBron>Wade.

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 03:50 PM
I agree...100%. But I think that that's just a testement to how amazing LeBron is. No one could do as much as he can do with just as little. That's why I think he is the best player in the game. The best record in the league...with that supporting cast????? That's nuts. He's unstoppable. No one can take over a game like he can.


yeah that team won lebron 66 games yeah i wouldn't call that team scrubs...
second he is stoppable all you have to do is clog the lane... and third kobe is a way better player at taking over a game check game one of the finals and you will see what i mean kobe = killer instinct lebron = check the $tats... therefore kobe is better:D

Shady66
08-31-2009, 03:52 PM
^ get off kobes **** like wow

*Superman*
08-31-2009, 03:54 PM
yeah that team won lebron 66 games yeah i wouldn't call that team scrubs...
second he is stoppable all you have to do is clog the lane... and third kobe is a way better player at taking over a game check game one of the finals and you will see what i mean kobe = killer instict lebron = check the $tats... therefore kobe is better:D

I think Shaq will help with that lol. And yes I agree LeBron wants to win AND have his stats, he is gonna have to learn you can only have one.

curtie74
08-31-2009, 04:13 PM
I didnt agree wit dwade behind chris paul but how cud blake griffin b n dis list he hasnt played a game dis list shud b burned

JLynn943
08-31-2009, 04:15 PM
Rodney Stuckey is on this list? Sorry but that invalidates the whole thing for me. (So does already having Blake Griffin at 57, though)

td0tsfinest
08-31-2009, 04:17 PM
Nelson at 82?

Anyone know which team has the most players on the list?

BTW Kobe>LeBron.

The Clippers with 6 players and then its a 4 way tie between Lakers, Pistons, Jazz and Mavs at 5 players

SteveNash
08-31-2009, 04:18 PM
This is the sixth part of PBN's series of positional player rankings, which will also feature a seperate list of Top Rookies as ranked by senior writer Tony Mejia. These rankings are based on an ambiguous formula of past accomplishments, upside, team role and general worthiness of swagger. As in, who's most swagger-worthy? They're entirely subjective, so arguments are not only expected, but encouraged.

Well that's certainly a stupid way to rank players.

Kobe4Life
08-31-2009, 04:21 PM
Good standings, look about right. Still can argue that Kobe is 1, and he is in my book. Wade is way to low, he should be 7+ Above , he is way overated.

magichatnumber9
08-31-2009, 04:35 PM
Rondo has to respond this season. I hope he does, "suicides and sacrifice will make you a champion in the NBA." That's my quote don't touch it.

theuuord
08-31-2009, 04:36 PM
and thats why you have him fourth on your list hahaha at you saying chris paul is better then kobe bryant... go lakers 73-9 haters!:clap:

I do think Chris Paul is better than Kobe Bryant, and that has nothing to do with which player has more arrogant fans constantly feeling the need to prove the greatness of their leader.

The Lakers are IMO the best team in basketball and Kobe is an awesome, awesome player. I'm just so tired of his fans - comparing everything to Kobe, taking any slight against Kobe as a massive insult or "haterism", seeing the NBA world as how it affects Kobe and the Lakers, or, and most annoyingly, taking over non-Laker, non-Kobe threads and making them completely about #24.

I remember the Cavs/Magic series and during one of the games I open up the game thread and it's all about how Kobe is the real MVP because LeBron missed a jumper, or didn't see a wide open man, or something. I did a search and the word Kobe came up like 124 times and the words Dwight, Howard, or D12 combined came up like 30. It was the Cavs-Magic series.

We get it. You love Kobe. You think he's great. We all do, too. Are you done now?

Mr.SmackYoMama
08-31-2009, 04:46 PM
WOW!!!!!!! Biedrins 97!!!!!!

NYtilIdie
08-31-2009, 04:59 PM
yeah that team won lebron 66 games yeah i wouldn't call that team scrubs...
second he is stoppable all you have to do is clog the lane... and third kobe is a way better player at taking over a game check game one of the finals and you will see what i mean kobe = killer instinct lebron = check the $tats... therefore kobe is better:D

Take Lebron off that team and their a lottery team. So yes the Cavs are team full of scrubs except for Mo and Lebron.

Clogging the lane isn't going to get it done. You need an elite defender (Battier) to stop him from getting into the lane.

Lebron beat Kobe in rebounding, assists, PPG, FG%, and had a higher efficiency in the playoffs. Kobe beat Lebron in 3pt% and FT%.

Kobe's playoff efficiency: 27.52

Lebron's playoff efficiency: 37.00

Gambeezy
08-31-2009, 05:03 PM
Good standings, look about right. Still can argue that Kobe is 1, and he is in my book. Wade is way to low, he should be 7+ Above , he is way overated.

:pity: All of that sounded good until you said Wade should be near the bottom of the top 10. You've lost all credibility.


I do think Chris Paul is better than Kobe Bryant, and that has nothing to do with which player has more arrogant fans constantly feeling the need to prove the greatness of their leader.

The Lakers are IMO the best team in basketball and Kobe is an awesome, awesome player. I'm just so tired of his fans - comparing everything to Kobe, taking any slight against Kobe as a massive insult or "haterism", seeing the NBA world as how it affects Kobe and the Lakers, or, and most annoyingly, taking over non-Laker, non-Kobe threads and making them completely about #24.

I remember the Cavs/Magic series and during one of the games I open up the game thread and it's all about how Kobe is the real MVP because LeBron missed a jumper, or didn't see a wide open man, or something. I did a search and the word Kobe came up like 124 times and the words Dwight, Howard, or D12 combined came up like 30. It was the Cavs-Magic series.

We get it. You love Kobe. You think he's great. We all do, too. Are you done now?

:clap::clap::clap:

heattiltheend94
08-31-2009, 05:06 PM
I'm not a homer, but WAde belongs in second or third after Lebron and mayb just mayb behind Kobe

ManRam
08-31-2009, 05:07 PM
yeah that team won lebron 66 games yeah i wouldn't call that team scrubs...
second he is stoppable all you have to do is clog the lane... and third kobe is a way better player at taking over a game check game one of the finals and you will see what i mean kobe = killer instinct lebron = check the $tats... therefore kobe is better:D

You have your head so far up Kobe *** you can't see daylight.

Look, I'm not going to say LeBron is better than Kobe. I'd rather build my team around LeBron, but that doesn't mean I think he's better.

Yeah...all you have to do is clog the lane...which is why no one can ever stop him? Why aren't you a head coach again?? Just because Kobe scowls doesn't mean he has more heart than LeBron. If anything...LeBron not shaking hands shows how much his heart is into it.

Someone said earlier they have no problem with Kobe, just his fanboys. Well, I mean it. Kobe is 1A, LeBron is 1B, but when I'm here, I turn into a huge LeBron fan. Weird how that works...especially when I can't stand him as much as the next guy.

Kobe better at taking over a game? Ha. Ask the Pistons what they think about that. Kobe may hit the daggers, but LeBron takes over so the daggers don't have to be hit. Single most unstoppable and dominant player ever...besides maybe Shaq. He's not the best, but he is a force unlike anything the NBA has seen.

I'm going to go wash my mouth out with soap now. I can't believe I'm sounding so pro-LeBron.

SteveNash
08-31-2009, 05:10 PM
Take Lebron off that team and their a lottery team. So yes the Cavs are team full of scrubs except for Mo and Lebron.

Clogging the lane isn't going to get it done. You need an elite defender (Battier) to stop him from getting into the lane.

Lebron beat Kobe in rebounding, assists, PPG, FG%, and had a higher efficiency in the playoffs. Kobe beat Lebron in 3pt% and FT%.

Kobe's playoff efficiency: 27.52

Lebron's playoff efficiency: 37.00

Kobe's playoff efficiency: 1 championship

LeBron's playoff efficiency: 0 championships

theuuord
08-31-2009, 05:12 PM
Kobe's playoff efficiency: 1 championship

LeBron's playoff efficiency: 0 championships

Derek Fisher or LeBron?

Robert Horry or Kobe?

The Lakers won because they were the best team in the NBA this year and faced a Magic team that was cooling off after a right-time red-hot span of about eight games.

bigsams50
08-31-2009, 05:12 PM
Kobe's playoff efficiency: 1 championship

LeBron's playoff efficiency: 0 championships

kobe had pau, odom, ariza, and fisher. Lebron basically only had mo

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 05:16 PM
I agree...100%. But I think that that's just a testement to how amazing LeBron is. No one could do as much as he can do with just as little. That's why I think he is the best player in the game. The best record in the league...with that supporting cast????? That's nuts. He's unstoppable. No one can take over a game like he can.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 05:23 PM
Derek Fisher or LeBron?

Robert Horry or Kobe?

The Lakers won because they were the best team in the NBA this year and faced a Magic team that was cooling off after a right-time red-hot span of about eight games.

Come on man, you can't be serious about that. At one end, you say the Lakers were the best team, then you go on to say that the faced a "cooling" Magic team? Do you think they would have beat LA if they played like they did against Boston and Cleveland?

NYtilIdie
08-31-2009, 05:23 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

You don't watch alot of games outside of the Laker's do you?

azkarraga
08-31-2009, 05:29 PM
we are not able to agree on a top ten list, much less in a top 100. impossible. and by the way, bosh aint #7. no way.

azkarraga
08-31-2009, 05:30 PM
and yes, wade is #3. not cp

theuuord
08-31-2009, 05:31 PM
Come on man, you can't be serious about that. At one end, you say the Lakers were the best team, then you go on to say that the faced a "cooling" Magic team? Do you think they would have beat LA if they played like they did against Boston and Cleveland?

How are those two sentiments mutually exclusive? They're both true.

There was an outside possibility that the Magic could have stolen that series, but it was highly unlikely considering that the Lakers were the best team in the league and the Magic were in the middle of a flame-hot three point shooting streak unlike one ever seen in playoff basketball prior to it. There was no way they were going to be able to keep up that level of efficiency against a third consecutive top team, especially when the team they faced was the most well-balanced and strongest team in the NBA.

NYtilIdie
08-31-2009, 05:33 PM
Kobe's playoff efficiency: 1 championship

LeBron's playoff efficiency: 0 championships

Kobe had: Odom as a 6th man, Ariza, Pau, and Fisher (he was clutch) and for Laker fanboys i'll throw in Bynum.

Lebron had: Mo and on a good night West too. Wally was their 6th man and Varejao was a starter. That should let you know how *****y they were.

KmB728
08-31-2009, 05:38 PM
If it was the other way around, I'd be outraged. At this point in their careers, Rondo is by far the better all around player. Allen is a one dimensional scorer. Hell, we put JJ on him vs. you guys...because we knew all Ray Ray would do was run around screens. He's too predictable. Can't take it to the hoop enough...or create his shot off the dribble. Defensively he's slowing down to. I love Rondo, wouldn't mind seeing him around 25...ahead of Harris.

Very Valid points, i was just thinking of Rays career as a whole rather than what he will contribute to the team on a game to game basis this comming season. My bad :facepalm:

kobelaughsatall
08-31-2009, 05:42 PM
I do think Chris Paul is better than Kobe Bryant, and that has nothing to do with which player has more arrogant fans constantly feeling the need to prove the greatness of their leader.

The Lakers are IMO the best team in basketball and Kobe is an awesome, awesome player. I'm just so tired of his fans - comparing everything to Kobe, taking any slight against Kobe as a massive insult or "haterism", seeing the NBA world as how it affects Kobe and the Lakers, or, and most annoyingly, taking over non-Laker, non-Kobe threads and making them completely about #24.

I remember the Cavs/Magic series and during one of the games I open up the game thread and it's all about how Kobe is the real MVP because LeBron missed a jumper, or didn't see a wide open man, or something. I did a search and the word Kobe came up like 124 times and the words Dwight, Howard, or D12 combined came up like 30. It was the Cavs-Magic series.

We get it. You love Kobe. You think he's great. We all do, too. Are you done now?

wow i and here i thought i saw everything, please explain to us how chris paul is better than kobe bryant u must be smokin that stuff

mikantsass
08-31-2009, 05:45 PM
Even though I think Kobe is done winning rings, I still put him ahead of LeBron. He is by far the best player in the league. Other observations: I think Gasol is wayyy too high, and Mayo is wayyy too low. Dirk's all around game should warrant a lower seed also. Guy doesnt know how to play D.

x_notorious
08-31-2009, 05:49 PM
Rookies in the top 100 = fail.

viictoor
08-31-2009, 05:49 PM
dirk should be 6

PrettyBoyJ
08-31-2009, 05:53 PM
Antwan Jamison before Amare Stoudemire????

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 06:16 PM
Kobe had: Odom as a 6th man, Ariza, Pau, and Fisher (he was clutch) and for Laker fanboys i'll throw in Bynum.

Lebron had: Mo and on a good night West too. Wally was their 6th man and Varejao was a starter. That should let you know how *****y they were.

So Lebron was surrounded with an All-star PG, a good solid SG who can score and defend, 2 former ALL-STAR big men, including a former DPOY who was still a post presence, a solid veteran in Joe Smith who was their SIXTH MAN, and dead-eye 3-point shooters. You just made the Cavs sound bad.

Compare the Playoff-Stats

Lakers Rotation-
Player FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Kobe Bryant .883 .80 4.50 5.30 5.5 1.65 .91 2.57 2.60 30.2
Pau Gasol .714 3.00 7.90 10.80 2.5 .83 1.96 1.91 3.00 18.3
Lamar Odom .613 2.80 6.30 9.10 1.8 .70 1.35 1.70 3.30 12.3
Trevor Ariza .563 1.00 3.30 4.20 2.3 1.57 .43 1.65 3.20 11.3
Derek Fisher .861 .30 1.70 2.00 2.2 .95 .05 1.09 2.80 8.0
Andrew Bynum .651 1.40 2.30 3.70 .4 .35 .91 .83 3.30 6.3

Cavs Rotation-
Player FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
LeBron James .749 1.40 7.80 9.10 7.3 1.64 .86 2.71 2.10 35.3
Mo Williams .767 .60 2.60 3.20 4.1 .71 .07 2.14 3.10 16.3
Delonte West .833 .40 3.10 3.50 4.1 1.36 .50 2.43 2.00 13.8
Zydrunas .636 1.90 5.90 7.80 1.2 .36 .93 .64 3.40 10.5
Varejao .682 2.90 3.50 6.40 . 6 1.29 1.14 1.07 3.50 6.9
Joe Smith .793 .80 2.90 3.70 .2 .46 .54 .54 1.90 5.5

I left out a couple of players on both sides who had minimal impact but were still available( Wally, Luke, Vujacic, Gibson, Wallace, Farmar). Kobe was Kobe, and Lebron was Lebron. Gasol was great and Mo still played well. West was better than Ariza statistical wise, but I would give the slight nodge to Ariza for his clutch defense and 3s. Lamar and Big Z also had similar stats and there would also be a slight advantage to Odom for his versatility. Then there the "Oscar-nominated" actors, Varejo and Fisher, who could make a flop look like a bomb blast. The Cavs needed Varejo to rebound and defend, and the Lakers need Fisher for his veteran presense and clutchness. Then theres Bynum and Smith, who both have pros and cons. They both played similar minutes, and have near identical stats. Smith is the smarter defender while Bynum is a little more aggressive, and on a championship team, this would be a toss-up, I would give the slightest edge Smith when the games on the line, otherwise, its Bynum.

Obviously the Lakers have a better squad but the Cavs are not "scrubs". They're built to play along side Lebron. Lebron is just a one-man wrecking crew when playing so you don't see how well his team his, while on the Lakers team, it is more disciplined. I hate hearing the arguement that "if" Lebron didn't play, they would suck ****. Well, the Lakers need Kobe just as much, if not more. With the addition of Artest and Shaq, both teams got even better. Both are great teams and along with the Celtics, Magic, and Spurs, there the class of the NBA.

P.S I'm sorry about how the stats are. I'm a noob when it comes to postings charts and graphs. SORRY :D

ILLN355
08-31-2009, 06:26 PM
Here we go again, another LeBron vs Kobe thread..

Shady66
08-31-2009, 06:33 PM
Dude saying mo williams is an all star is ******** lol, even if he did get voted in. and ur right DPOY in ben wallace, but come on, to say ben wallace is a great player now is ridiculous, obviously lakers had a much better overall team last season.

Gambeezy
08-31-2009, 06:43 PM
Dude saying mo williams is an all star is ******** lol, even if he did get voted in. and ur right DPOY in ben wallace, but come on, to say ben wallace is a great player now is ridiculous, obviously lakers had a much better overall team last season.

Yea please let's not try to compare the Lakers supporting cast to the Cavs. When Sideshow Bob is in the starting rotation, you know the superstar is going to have to will that team to the playoffs. The Lakers cast was ridiculously deeper.

TYoung21
08-31-2009, 06:44 PM
Wow reading posts from Kobe's fans makes me hate him even more.

Edit: And I hate this KB24 kid, look at his gay signature..lol

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 06:49 PM
Wow reading posts from Kobe's fans makes me hate him even more.

Edit: And I hate this KB24 kid, look at his gay signature..lol

I don't really care. Thanks for hating me man, when I don't even know you. You hate my sig, well I like yours, so I don't really care.I'm just showing that the Cavs team is not as bad as people make it to be. I admitted that the Lakers are a deeper team and are better.

Toenail Clipper
08-31-2009, 06:55 PM
Clippers = BEAST
:D

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 06:57 PM
Put Kobe on the Cavs and Lebron on the Lakers...

Lebron would SMASH Kobe

No mentions the coaches either, Phil Jackson is extremely valuable.

Toenail Clipper
08-31-2009, 07:06 PM
Put Kobe on the Cavs and Lebron on the Lakers...

Lebron would SMASH Kobe

No mentions the coaches either, Phil Jackson is extremely valuable.

REALLY?
Let's just say let's put Kobe on LeBron's body.
Then, Kobe would be the best player in the world.
He can dunk 24/7 like LeBron and drive to the basket because he is just too strong.
Kobe ain't muscular and full of steroids like LeBrick.

Toenail Clipper
08-31-2009, 07:07 PM
BTW, the Laker bench sucks so much balls.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 07:08 PM
REALLY?
Let's just say let's put Kobe on LeBron's body.
Then, Kobe would be the best player in the world.
He can dunk 24/7 like LeBron and drive to the basket because he is just too strong.
Kobe ain't muscular and full of steroids like LeBrick.

Donk

Shady66
08-31-2009, 07:09 PM
well other than LO it does.

WITZ
08-31-2009, 07:19 PM
So Lebron was surrounded with an All-star PG, a good solid SG who can score and defend, 2 former ALL-STAR big men, including a former DPOY who was still a post presence, a solid veteran in Joe Smith who was their SIXTH MAN, and dead-eye 3-point shooters. You just made the Cavs sound bad.

SORRY :D

Those stats are misleading though they may have put up points but not with a great shooting%. 2 former allstar players that are way past there prime.Joe wasn't out 6th man he barely played at all once the orlando series got under way.They weren't bad but they were great either more so a team of role players with the exception of Mo.

HuRRiCaNeS324
08-31-2009, 07:22 PM
Omg i want to vomit. This list is pathetic.

First of all Wade is number 4, wtf is that all about? And Blake Griffin, who has never even played before is "better than" Al Hortford, BG, Mo Williams (who is an all star and is 77 lol), Shawn Marion, Jason terry, Tashaun Prince, i mean c'mon! He's good of course, but he shouldn't even be on this list as well as every rookie.

And how in the **** do the clippers have the most players in the top 100? This list fails on so many levels it's not even funny.

Toenail Clipper
08-31-2009, 07:30 PM
Omg i want to vomit. This list is pathetic.

First of all Wade is number 4, wtf is that all about? And Blake Griffin, who has never even played before is "better than" Al Hortford, BG, Mo Williams (who is an all star and is 77 lol), Shawn Marion, Jason terry, Tashaun Prince, i mean c'mon! He's good of course, but he shouldn't even be on this list as well as every rookie.

And how in the **** do the clippers have the most players in the top 100? This list fails on so many levels it's not even funny.

What do you expect?
All the Miami Heat players on this list?
NAHHHH!

HuRRiCaNeS324
08-31-2009, 07:31 PM
Wow i assumed our second heat player in the 100 list was beasley, but its JO (who deserves to be there). Beasley was a WAY better player than JO last year and many players who are on the list. I can find a million things wrong with this list, its ridiculous. By far the worst ive ever seen.

HuRRiCaNeS324
08-31-2009, 07:35 PM
What do you expect?
All the Miami Heat players on this list?
NAHHHH!

The Heat deserve 3 players: Wade at #3, Beasley at around 70 something, and JO between 80-100.

The clippers have pretty good players, but to say they have better players than the rest of the league is ludicrous.

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 07:37 PM
The Heat deserve 3 players: Wade at #3, Beasley at around 70 something, and JO between 80-100.

The clippers have pretty good players, but to say they have better players than the rest of the league is ludicrous.

JO should be much higher. He's still a force on both sides when healthy. But to bad he gets injured after every other game.

Gambeezy
08-31-2009, 07:39 PM
Kobe ain't muscular and full of steroids like LeBrick.


What do you expect?
All the Miami Heat players on this list?
NAHHHH!


:facepalm: Your posts are quickly beginning to annoy me. They bare no substance or relevance. Please post whore somewhere else.

bbcmillionaire
08-31-2009, 07:42 PM
as a bulls fan, i could make a case for a lot of bulls players, but im not a homer. Instead ill say that not having carmelo a top 5 or 10 is down right dissrepectful. He's not that far from lebron, he's right on lebron's tail

Toenail Clipper
08-31-2009, 07:42 PM
:facepalm: Your posts are quickly beginning to annoy me. They bare no substance or relevance. Please post whore somewhere else.

Stop reading them.
Don't act all smart and shiz

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 07:44 PM
:facepalm: Your posts are quickly beginning to annoy me. They bare no substance or relevance. Please post whore somewhere else.

:clap:

Shady66
08-31-2009, 07:46 PM
ya dude you seam like one of those people who other people dont like very much...

fairandbalanced
08-31-2009, 07:47 PM
i like how y'all got hyped up over a bored, no credibility NBA analyst that makes no sense whatsoever. This crap should be closed....should I post a blog on some site, and pass it off here as a legit source?

HuRRiCaNeS324
08-31-2009, 07:50 PM
JO should be much higher. He's still a force on both sides when healthy. But to bad he gets injured after every other game.

Yea but, he hasn't been healthy. I'm basing this off the prior season, if it was for this year i would indeed put him higher because supposedly he is really healthy and has been working real hard. And when he's healthy, he is a real good player like you said.

FlawlessKB24
08-31-2009, 07:54 PM
SLAM is doing a top 50

so far AI is 50, Josh Howard is 49, and Jameer is 48

should be done by the time the season starts i think

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 07:57 PM
Wow @ Chris Bosh over Nowitzki...wtf has bosh accomplished?

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 08:09 PM
Wow @ Chris Bosh over Nowitzki...wtf has bosh accomplished?

Bosh is entering his prime, Nowitzki is past his

Eagles4Lyfe
08-31-2009, 08:11 PM
wowwww wut a messed list kobe wade and lebron shud be top 3 in that order..Wade has proven more then lebron and is amazingly efficent....Kobes just kobe, lebron will never get the amount of rings kobe has and thatll be a fact

NYtilIdie
08-31-2009, 08:15 PM
Cause the Cavs ARE that bad. Mo made the all-star team cause everybody and their momma begged Stern to put him on the team plus they needed somebody to fill in for Nelson, Wallace was a DOPY 3 yrs ago, but lost it way before he came to the Cavs, Wally hasn't done **** since he left Minny, and Z is still decent, but inconsistent at times.

To try and compare Laker's to the Cavs is dumb. You can't say Mo played just as well as Ariza cause Ariza showed up every night to where Mo was invisible during the whole Magic series same with West. Comparing Andy to Pau is a joke itself. Odom is a versatile player and makes shots which gives him the huge advantage over the scrub Wally who hits everything, but the rim .

You take Kobe off the Laker's and LA gets 8-7 seed cause they can fall back on Pau,Ariza, and Odom. You take Lebron off the Cavs and their a lottery team cause their go-to-guy is Mo who showed he isn't a #2 option more of a #3.

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 08:16 PM
Bosh is entering his prime, Nowitzki is past his

So you're saying as of now Bosh is better then Nowitzki?

lololololol

Shady66
08-31-2009, 08:18 PM
Dirk right now is still better then bosh

CB4AB7VC15
08-31-2009, 08:27 PM
This coming year: MVP
Kobe LBJ no more excuses well see whos # 1
Howard
Wade
paul
roy
dirk
durant
duncan
bosh

SteveNash
08-31-2009, 08:34 PM
Derek Fisher or LeBron?

Robert Horry or Kobe?

The Lakers won because they were the best team in the NBA this year and faced a Magic team that was cooling off after a right-time red-hot span of about eight games.

Lakers won because they had Kobe. LeBron lost because he gave up on his team and hogged the ball to much just killing their offense instead of just trying to do what they did during the regular season. LeBron was good enough with his allegedly garbage teammates to have to best record in the NBA winning more games than Kobe's super team. Yet LeBron couldn't get it done in the playoffs. Not really buying the whole bad teammate excuse for a team that wins 66 games.

PLAYERS FAN
08-31-2009, 08:43 PM
Lakers won because they had Kobe. LeBron lost because he gave up on his team and hogged the ball to much just killing their offense instead of just trying to do what they did during the regular season. LeBron was good enough with his allegedly garbage teammates to have to best record in the NBA winning more games than Kobe's super team. Yet LeBron couldn't get it done in the playoffs. Not really buying the whole bad teammate excuse for a team that wins 66 games.

I concur:clap:

theuuord
08-31-2009, 08:56 PM
Lakers won because they had Kobe. LeBron lost because he gave up on his team and hogged the ball to much just killing their offense instead of just trying to do what they did during the regular season. LeBron was good enough with his allegedly garbage teammates to have to best record in the NBA winning more games than Kobe's super team. Yet LeBron couldn't get it done in the playoffs. Not really buying the whole bad teammate excuse for a team that wins 66 games.

They won more games over the course of the season because they played in the obviously weaker Eastern Conference. You put the Lakers in the East and they win 70+ games this season.
LeBron didn't give up on his team in the playoffs this year. His team around him choked.

Hogging the ball? Who was LeBron taking shots from in the ECF?
Mo Williams? increased his shots per game less than from 14 in the season to over 16 in the ECF. He just stopped making shots.
Ilgauskas? shot two less shots per game, 11.1 to 9.3. I'm pretty sure Ilgauskas taking two less shots per game didn't cause the team to lose in 5.
Delonte West? took 3 more shots per game in the playoffs. He just choked.

Who else after LeBron and those three on the Cavs is even an offensive threat? Is it really in the best interest of the Cavs for LeBron to try deferring to Boobie Gibson?

LeBron did absolutely everything humanly possible to help his team win. And the last thing he was was a detriment to the Cavs in the playoffs because everybody else stopped making shots and the Magic caught on a hot streak.

The Lakers won because they were the best team in the NBA. No doubt about that one. That doesn't mean they have the best player.

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 09:40 PM
The Lakers won because they were the best team in the NBA. No doubt about that one. That doesn't mean they have the best player.

Your right, just because the Lakers won doesn't mean they have the best player. Too bad they do. :cool:

theuuord
08-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Your right, just because the Lakers won doesn't mean they have the best player. Too bad they do. :cool:

The guy with the username KB24 thinks that a Laker is the best player in the NBA.


shocking.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 09:45 PM
So you're saying as of now Bosh is better then Nowitzki?

lololololol

They are really close right now, but it won't be long until Bosh pulls ahead. Nowitzki's stats have been on a downslope factor in the # of minutes he's played and his age it's hard to see him duplicating his 05-07 numbers.

Bosh is 25 he still has some room to grow and having a healthy group of teammates should help him this season. Then who knows where he goes and how good he is

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 09:54 PM
The guy with the username KB24 thinks that a Laker is the best player in the NBA.


shocking.

Can't change facts. You are what you are.

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 09:55 PM
They are really close right now, but it won't be long until Bosh pulls ahead. Nowitzki's stats have been on a downslope factor in the # of minutes he's played and his age it's hard to see him duplicating his 05-07 numbers.

Bosh is 25 he still has some room to grow and having a healthy group of teammates should help him this season. Then who knows where he goes and how good he is

You didn't answer my question. I said, so you're saying as of now Bosh is better then Nowitzki?

theuuord
08-31-2009, 09:57 PM
Can't change facts. You are what you are.

you're not Kobe.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 10:02 PM
You didn't answer my question. I said, so you're saying as of now Bosh is better then Nowitzki?

I can't say for sure right now. Soon (say over the next 3 years) I'd rather have Bosh than Dirk.

I'm not trying to discredit Nowitzki he is a great player, HOFer, but his game has started to decline.

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 10:04 PM
I can't say for sure right now. Soon (say over the next 3 years) I'd rather have Bosh than Dirk.

I'm not trying to discredit Nowitzki he is a great player, HOFer, but his game has started to decline.

Soon, but as of now Nowitzki over Bosh.

patsfan32
08-31-2009, 10:04 PM
The guy with the username KB24 thinks that a Laker is the best player in the NBA.


shocking.

Well, Kobe is the best player in the NBA. LeBron's still an erratic shooter and he hasn't won a ring yet. Both are good passers, and LeBron's a superior rebounder. Give me Kobe every day of the week over him though. And this is coming from a life long Celtics fan who hates him and the Lakers.

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 10:06 PM
I can easily say Devin Harris is better than Derick Rose, but soon Rose will be better

But as of right now Harris is the better player.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 10:10 PM
I can easily say Devin Harris is better than Derick Rose, but soon Rose will be better

But as of right now Harris is the better player.

Bosh is better

LA_Raiders
08-31-2009, 10:10 PM
BS....

1- Kobe
2- Wade
3- LeBroom

NANDOKNICK
08-31-2009, 10:12 PM
on it.....Lebron James cannot be compared with Kobie
or Dwayne Wade...They won Championship...
Lebron James is more like Steve Nash and Patrick Ewing

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 10:15 PM
you're not Kobe.

Thanks for tell me smart guy. I'm a Lakers fan and it just so happens that the best player on earth, HANDS DOWN, Kobe Bryant, is playing for us. And the next big thing happens to be playing down in South Beach.

_KB24_
08-31-2009, 10:18 PM
on it.....Lebron James cannot be compared with Kobie
or Dwayne Wade...They won Championship...
Lebron James is more like Steve Nash and Patrick Ewing

Those guys have HOF resumes, Lebron as of now doesn`t.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 10:19 PM
Thanks for tell me smart guy. I'm a Lakers fan and it just so happens that the best player on earth, HANDS DOWN, Kobe Bryant, is playing for us. And the next big thing happens to be playing down in South Beach.

LeBron is younger and better.

Mike Brown, Wally, Mo, and Z are not Phil, Gasol, and Odom.

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 10:20 PM
Bosh is better

...than Nowitzki?

:facepalm:

theuuord
08-31-2009, 10:24 PM
Thanks for tell me smart guy. I'm a Lakers fan and it just so happens that the best player on earth, HANDS DOWN, Kobe Bryant, is playing for us. And the next big thing happens to be playing down in South Beach.

this is why i see no point in arguing with you, and for that matter, most Lakers fans.
because you're so lost in your own LA-addled world that God himself could erect a 50-foot billboard in front of your house that says "LEBRON IS WORTH MORE TO HIS TEAM THAN KOBE" and you still wouldn't believe it - or even consider it.

Whatever works for you dude.

ChiSox219
08-31-2009, 10:27 PM
...than Nowitzki?

:facepalm:

pleas educate me why dirk is better

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 10:47 PM
I think Shaq will help with that lol. And yes I agree LeBron wants to win AND have his stats, he is gonna have to learn you can only have one.


you are like the only magic fan i respecet

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 10:50 PM
Take Lebron off that team and their a lottery team. So yes the Cavs are team full of scrubs except for Mo and Lebron.

Clogging the lane isn't going to get it done. You need an elite defender (Battier) to stop him from getting into the lane.

Lebron beat Kobe in rebounding, assists, PPG, FG%, and had a higher efficiency in the playoffs. Kobe beat Lebron in 3pt% and FT%.

Kobe's playoff efficiency: 27.52

Lebron's playoff efficiency: 37.00


wow you sure look dumb now didn't you read what i said about lebron he's all stats and hype and the first things you bring up are stats to prove your point omg

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 10:54 PM
Even though I think Kobe is done winning rings, I still put him ahead of LeBron. He is by far the best player in the league. Other observations: I think Gasol is wayyy too high, and Mayo is wayyy too low. Dirk's all around game should warrant a lower seed also. Guy doesnt know how to play D.

i agree with you on everything besides the part where you say kobe and the lakers are done winning championships

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 11:05 PM
The guy with the username KB24 thinks that a Laker is the best player in the NBA.


shocking.

no it's not shocking it's a fact... u know what you should do... you should go check out how much greater lebron stats are then kobe's turn it side ways and stick it straight up your candy *** if u smelllloooo what kobe bryant and the lakers are cookin!!!!!!

kobe24>lebron23
08-31-2009, 11:08 PM
you know what the rock would say he would say it doesn't matter what you say...know your role and shut your mouth... kobe= the rock simply the best

bigsams50
08-31-2009, 11:16 PM
lebron and kobe fans....

cant we all just get along?

wadecounty305
08-31-2009, 11:23 PM
Antawn jamison 18??
And jammer nelson 81???

Hahahaha this list is b.s.

Also chris paul ahead of d-wade is dumb.. Wade is better than cp3 everyone knows it

Mavrix
08-31-2009, 11:25 PM
pleas educate me why dirk is better

If were talking about present:

He scores over 3 more points in less minutes on a more talented team as of last year

He has led Dallas to the playoffs every year since 2000

Is always top 5 in FT%

Can shoot and make 3's unlike Bosh

Dirk gets less turnovers per game

The only thing you can say about Bosh is that he's a better rebounder, that's it.

Go ahead and make a thread asking who's better, I assure you Nowitzki will win by a land slide.

wadecounty305
08-31-2009, 11:29 PM
If were talking about present:

He scores over 3 more points in less minutes on a more talented team as of last year

He has led Dallas to the playoffs every year since 2000

Is always top 5 in FT%

Can shoot and make 3's unlike Bosh

Dirk gets less turnovers per game

The only thing you can say about Bosh is that he's a better rebounder, that's it.

Go ahead and make a thread asking who's better, I assure you Nowitzki will win by a land slide.

I AGREE WITH U dirk is better than cb4

MajorFloridaFan
08-31-2009, 11:42 PM
i think pietrus should be at least 100

dwadefan03
08-31-2009, 11:49 PM
I agree...100%. But I think that that's just a testement to how amazing LeBron is. No one could do as much as he can do with just as little. That's why I think he is the best player in the game. The best record in the league...with that supporting cast????? That's nuts. He's unstoppable. No one can take over a game like he can.

WADE can. This list is ridiculous. not only is kobe ahead of wade but so is chris paul? cmon now wade and lebron are easily the two best players in the league right now. i mean its not a knock on kobe or chris paul both of them are amazing players but theyre just not better than wade. oh and gerald wallace is ranked way too low.

MajorFloridaFan
08-31-2009, 11:55 PM
and dwight needs to jump a sopt eventually

Bruno
08-31-2009, 11:56 PM
They won more games over the course of the season because they played in the obviously weaker Eastern Conference. You put the Lakers in the East and they win 70+ games this season.
LeBron didn't give up on his team in the playoffs this year. His team around him choked.

Hogging the ball? Who was LeBron taking shots from in the ECF?
Mo Williams? increased his shots per game less than from 14 in the season to over 16 in the ECF. He just stopped making shots.
Ilgauskas? shot two less shots per game, 11.1 to 9.3. I'm pretty sure Ilgauskas taking two less shots per game didn't cause the team to lose in 5.
Delonte West? took 3 more shots per game in the playoffs. He just choked.

Who else after LeBron and those three on the Cavs is even an offensive threat? Is it really in the best interest of the Cavs for LeBron to try deferring to Boobie Gibson?

LeBron did absolutely everything humanly possible to help his team win. And the last thing he was was a detriment to the Cavs in the playoffs because everybody else stopped making shots and the Magic caught on a hot streak.




The Cavaliers lost in six, not five. When you lose two must win games by two points or less, then maybe giving Big Z, or the other options more shots could have made the difference. You're underestimating the importance of role players in big time playoff games. The Celtics weren't expecting to beat the Lakers in '08 because of Leon Powe, Eddie House, and James Posey, yet those players made all the difference in several key games in a close series.

You keep saying that roll players didn't make shots, as if that is what made the difference in the series. Cleveland didn't win a league leading 66 games during the regular season because of their offense; they were 13th in the NBA in points per game during the regular season.
Cleveland won 66 games because they were the best defensive team in the NBA, allowing less than 92 ppg (One single player is never responsible for that kind of dominance). When you allow the Magic to score well above that for all six games of the series, you will lose. When your defensive bread and butter is no longer holding up, you can't expect your middle of the pack offense to dig you out of a hole.

You mention Boobie Gibson as if he's a joke. I'm sure you would have thought the same thing about John Paxton and Steve Kerr before Jordan gave them the opportunity to be remembered for being clutch when it mattered.

The Magic were on a hot streak? They averaged 101 ppg during the Cleveland series, the exact same amount of points they averaged per game during the regular season. They continued to average 101 ppg against the Lakers in the Finals as well. They were never on a hot streak, they were absolutely consistent. The difference between the Cavs series and the Lakers series wasn't the Magic offense, it was their defense, and their failure to stop the LA attack (who averaged 107ppg).

The reality is LeBron took too many shots, had the ball in his hand too often, and the Cavs became too predictable. LeBron could only guard Turk or Lewis, the one LeBron wasn't guarding is the one who made the shot when it mattered. Nobody choked, this series was a match up nightmare for Cleveland and their defense was exposed.

Vinny642
09-01-2009, 12:06 AM
Cp3 in the third spot Woooo!

Also DWest and Okafor in it
1

masalex1205
09-01-2009, 12:09 AM
wow this list is a horrible list

MajorFloridaFan
09-01-2009, 12:12 AM
The Cavaliers lost in six, not five. When you lose two must win games by two points or less, then maybe giving Big Z, or the other options more shots could have made the difference. You're underestimating the importance of role players in big time playoff games. The Celtics weren't expecting to beat the Lakers in '08 because of Leon Powe, Eddie House, and James Posey, yet those players made all the difference in several key games in a close series.

You keep saying that roll players didn't make shots, as if that is what made the difference in the series. Cleveland didn't win a league leading 66 games during the regular season because of their offense; they were 13th in the NBA in points per game during the regular season.
Cleveland won 66 games because they were the best defensive team in the NBA, allowing less than 92 ppg (One single player is never responsible for that kind of dominance). When you allow the Magic to score well above that for all six games of the series, you will lose. When your defensive bread and butter is no longer holding up, you can't expect your middle of the pack offense to dig you out of a hole.

You mention Boobie Gibson as if he's a joke. I'm sure you would have thought the same thing about John Paxton and Steve Kerr before Jordan gave them the opportunity to be remembered for being clutch when it mattered.

The Magic were on a hot streak? They averaged 101 ppg during the Cleveland series, the exact same amount of points they averaged per game during the regular season. They continued to average 101 ppg against the Lakers in the Finals as well. They were never on a hot streak, they were absolutely consistent. The difference between the Cavs series and the Lakers series wasn't the Magic offense, it was their defense, and their failure to stop the LA attack (who averaged 107ppg).

The reality is LeBron took too many shots, had the ball in his hand too often, and the Cavs became too predictable. LeBron could only guard Turk or Lewis, the one LeBron wasn't guarding is the one who made the shot when it mattered. Nobody choked, this series was a match up nightmare for Cleveland and their defense was exposed.

i like this guys ideas

theuuord
09-01-2009, 12:23 AM
The Cavaliers lost in six, not five. When you lose two must win games by two points or less, then maybe giving Big Z, or the other options more shots could have made the difference. You're underestimating the importance of role players in big time playoff games. The Celtics weren't expecting to beat the Lakers in '08 because of Leon Powe, Eddie House, and James Posey, yet those players made all the difference in several key games in a close series.

Six, five. Sorry, whatever. they lost.
And two things:
1) if you honestly think Leon Powe and Eddie House and James Posey were more effective - and more important - than Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce - in winning that title, you are arguing an indefensible position, and
2) The Cavaliers role players choked in the EC Finals. No two bones about it. Everyone outside of LeBron shot horribly - thus leaving the Magic defense the ability to focus on LeBron, thus hampering his efficiency because no one else could freaking score. Their defensive schemes were ill-drawn by Mike Brown. Nobody came close to keeping that team afloat.


You keep saying that roll players didn't make shots, as if that is what made the difference in the series. Cleveland didn't win a league leading 66 games during the regular season because of their offense; they were 13th in the NBA in points per game during the regular season.
Cleveland won 66 games because they were the best defensive team in the NBA, allowing less than 92 ppg (One single player is never responsible for that kind of dominance). When you allow the Magic to score well above that for all six games of the series, you will lose. When your defensive bread and butter is no longer holding up, you can't expect your middle of the pack offense to dig you out of a hole.

You're still not getting this context thing, huh? I'll bold the important parts.

The Cavs had the 25th paced offense in basketball. They played an extremely slow game - only 88 possessions. Their offensive efficiency - 112.4 points per 100 possessions - was 4th in the league. Their defensive efficiency - 102.4 points per 100 possessions - was 3rd in the league. As far as offense-defense goes, they were as balanced as a team gets.

The Magic were a great team that got hot at the right time and rode the hot streak into the Finals.


You mention Boobie Gibson as if he's a joke. I'm sure you would have thought the same thing about John Paxton and Steve Kerr before Jordan gave them the opportunity to be remembered for being clutch when it mattered.

LOL. Really dude? Boobie shot 32.5% in the playoffs and was criticized for looking out of it the entire time. That's the guy you're gonna hang your hat on? Boobie Gibson?

Steve Kerr was one of the best marksmen of his generation. John Paxson had been renowned for his shooting ability far before that shot in 1993 - and, for what it's worth, shot 15-24 from three in those playoffs. FIFTEEN FOR TWENTY-FOUR. You're comparing tasty apples to rotten oranges.



The Magic were on a hot streak? They averaged 101 ppg during the Cleveland series, the exact same amount of points they averaged per game during the regular season. They continued to average 101 ppg against the Lakers in the Finals as well. They were never on a hot streak, they were absolutely consistent. The difference between the Cavs series and the Lakers series wasn't the Magic offense, it was their defense, and their failure to stop the LA attack (who averaged 107ppg).

You really stink at this context-pace thing. Look at the Magic's three point shooting percentage combined with the volume of shots over the course of the series (and a few games back in the Celtics series). The way they shot was unprecedented in the playoffs. They absolutely caught on fire. Even when the Cavs tried to slow down the game, the Magic kept firing. That's why points per game doesn't work here - you're not accounting for game speed.


The reality is LeBron took too many shots, had the ball in his hand too often, and the Cavs became too predictable. LeBron could only guard Turk or Lewis, the one LeBron wasn't guarding is the one who made the shot when it mattered. Nobody choked, this series was a match up nightmare for Cleveland and their defense was exposed.

The reality is that everyone outside of LeBron on the Cavs absolutely forgot how to shoot right at the same time that the Magic caught fire. Mike Brown got absolutely shellshocked and outcoached, and as a result LeBron had the ball in his hand because he was the ONLY one scoring at anything near an efficient rate.

Bruno
09-01-2009, 01:23 AM
Six, five. Sorry, whatever. they lost.
And two things:
1) if you honestly think Leon Powe and Eddie House and James Posey were more effective - and more important - than Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce - in winning that title, you are arguing an indefensible position, and
2) The Cavaliers role players choked in the EC Finals. No two bones about it. Everyone outside of LeBron shot horribly - thus leaving the Magic defense the ability to focus on LeBron, thus hampering his efficiency because no one else could freaking score. Their defensive schemes were ill-drawn by Mike Brown. Nobody came close to keeping that team afloat.

:facepalm: At what point did I say they were more important than the big three? I didn't, I said they were given the opportunity to contribute big when it mattered, and that they executed as roll players.



You're still not getting this context thing, huh? I'll bold the important parts.

The Cavs had the 25th paced offense in basketball. They played an extremely slow game - only 88 possessions. Their offensive efficiency - 112.4 points per 100 possessions - was 4th in the league. Their defensive efficiency - 102.4 points per 100 possessions - was 3rd in the league. As far as offense-defense goes, they were as balanced as a team gets.

The Magic were a great team that got hot at the right time and rode the hot streak into the Finals.

Context? Per 100 possession is a hypothetical statistic. If they never actually get to 100 possessions, then who cares about what they would have averaged if they got there? OK, they had an "efficient offense", and good balance on both sides of the floor, it still doesn't change what they averaged per game. The Magic pushed the tempo and Clevelands "efficiency" went out the window. That starts and ends with Clevelands own failures on defensive, like I said earlier.

Again, the Magic were consistent, even from behind the 3 point arc. They averaged 38% from behind the arc for the regular season, 38% against the Cavs, and 38% against the Lakers. This hot streak you speak of is statistically false, sorry, it just is. I know they were red hot for a few games, but over the course of two series, they avereaged the exact same % as they did in the regular season. On average, they didn't get hot against the Cavs, and they didn't cool down against the Lakers, they were consistent.


LOL. Really dude? Boobie shot 32.5% in the playoffs and was criticized for looking out of it the entire time. That's the guy you're gonna hang your hat on? Boobie Gibson?

Steve Kerr was one of the best marksmen of his generation. John Paxson had been renowned for his shooting ability far before that shot in 1993 - and, for what it's worth, shot 15-24 from three in those playoffs. FIFTEEN FOR TWENTY-FOUR. You're comparing tasty apples to rotten oranges.


Steve Kerr averaged 32% during the 95-96 playoffs, and 38% during the 96-97 playoffs. His averages weren't superb, it is what he did at key moments that mattered, thats why I'm saying. I'm not hanging my hat on Boobie Gibson, you brought him up. This applies to anyone on the Cavs.



You really stink at this context-pace thing. Look at the Magic's three point shooting percentage combined with the volume of shots over the course of the series (and a few games back in the Celtics series). The way they shot was unprecedented in the playoffs. They absolutely caught on fire. Even when the Cavs tried to slow down the game, the Magic kept firing. That's why points per game doesn't work here - you're not accounting for game speed.

Possessions per game has absolutely noting to do with what you average regarding percentage. Possessions per game only effects the number of shots taken, and made, not the %.



In 97-98 Michael Jordan was regarded as the best player on the planet. Yet, the younger, physically dominant Shaq Oneal had the better stats, a higher PER and all the upside. Why was Jordan still considered the best player? Because he led his team to another ring.

This years Kobe/LeBron argument is no different, the guy who won the championship and won finals MVP is the best player, even if the other guy has better statistics and more upside.

Vee-Rex
09-01-2009, 01:24 AM
I don't see Lebron and Kobe fans.

I see Kobe fanatics and guys that like various teams presenting a reasonable argument from Lebron's side.

I mean, Kobe is an amazing player but PSD has the most guys slurping on him than anywhere else (other than the Lakers website). It's becoming hilarious. :clap:

Ace33Bone
09-01-2009, 10:25 AM
Another bad list.

It should read:

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Kobe

and the rest is a crap shoot

I am a Kobe hater myself but there is no way that you can deny this guy either the #1 or #2 spot... Wade is not better than him right now... He could potentially pass him in the future but not at this current moment... I like this lists top 10 after that it gets a bit crazy

MackSnackWrap
09-01-2009, 10:38 AM
I agree with there top 10, apart from that some i would change, but pretty good list on the whole

ChiSox219
09-01-2009, 10:59 AM
If were talking about present:

He scores over 3 more points in less minutes on a more talented team as of last year

True, but Dirk takes 3.6 shots more per 36 minutes to score those 3.2 more points per 36 , very inefficient. Also, one of the most talented Mavs is JKidd who doesn't score or take shots but is great at setting up other players.



He has led Dallas to the playoffs every year since 2000

That's a team accomplisment, the Mavs have had more talent recently than the Raptors.


Is always top 5 in FT%

Dirk was 6th last year, and 9th in FT% the year before. Bosh is a very good FT shooter (82%) and gets to the line more than Nowitzki.


Dirk gets less turnovers per game

2.1 per 36 for Bosh
1.9 per 36 for Dirk

Very marginal difference (Bosh has similar advantages is blocks and steals). Bosh was stuck with a lousy roster, Defenses could focus in on Bosh and force more TO's.


The only thing you can say about Bosh is that he's a better rebounder, that's it.


A significantly better rebounder, 15.4% to 12.8%


Go ahead and make a thread asking who's better, I assure you Nowitzki will win by a land slide.

What will that accomplish, PSD votes don't make one player better than another. Most people on here don't have league pass so they rarely see games outside of their own home team. I don't think Bosh was on national TV more than a couple times all last season.

patsfan32
09-01-2009, 11:12 AM
So Lebron was surrounded with an All-star PG, a good solid SG who can score and defend, 2 former ALL-STAR big men, including a former DPOY who was still a post presence, a solid veteran in Joe Smith who was their SIXTH MAN, and dead-eye 3-point shooters. You just made the Cavs sound bad.

Compare the Playoff-Stats

Lakers Rotation-
Player FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Kobe Bryant .883 .80 4.50 5.30 5.5 1.65 .91 2.57 2.60 30.2
Pau Gasol .714 3.00 7.90 10.80 2.5 .83 1.96 1.91 3.00 18.3
Lamar Odom .613 2.80 6.30 9.10 1.8 .70 1.35 1.70 3.30 12.3
Trevor Ariza .563 1.00 3.30 4.20 2.3 1.57 .43 1.65 3.20 11.3
Derek Fisher .861 .30 1.70 2.00 2.2 .95 .05 1.09 2.80 8.0
Andrew Bynum .651 1.40 2.30 3.70 .4 .35 .91 .83 3.30 6.3

Cavs Rotation-
Player FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
LeBron James .749 1.40 7.80 9.10 7.3 1.64 .86 2.71 2.10 35.3
Mo Williams .767 .60 2.60 3.20 4.1 .71 .07 2.14 3.10 16.3
Delonte West .833 .40 3.10 3.50 4.1 1.36 .50 2.43 2.00 13.8
Zydrunas .636 1.90 5.90 7.80 1.2 .36 .93 .64 3.40 10.5
Varejao .682 2.90 3.50 6.40 . 6 1.29 1.14 1.07 3.50 6.9
Joe Smith .793 .80 2.90 3.70 .2 .46 .54 .54 1.90 5.5

I left out a couple of players on both sides who had minimal impact but were still available( Wally, Luke, Vujacic, Gibson, Wallace, Farmar). Kobe was Kobe, and Lebron was Lebron. Gasol was great and Mo still played well. West was better than Ariza statistical wise, but I would give the slight nodge to Ariza for his clutch defense and 3s. Lamar and Big Z also had similar stats and there would also be a slight advantage to Odom for his versatility. Then there the "Oscar-nominated" actors, Varejo and Fisher, who could make a flop look like a bomb blast. The Cavs needed Varejo to rebound and defend, and the Lakers need Fisher for his veteran presense and clutchness. Then theres Bynum and Smith, who both have pros and cons. They both played similar minutes, and have near identical stats. Smith is the smarter defender while Bynum is a little more aggressive, and on a championship team, this would be a toss-up, I would give the slightest edge Smith when the games on the line, otherwise, its Bynum.

Obviously the Lakers have a better squad but the Cavs are not "scrubs". They're built to play along side Lebron. Lebron is just a one-man wrecking crew when playing so you don't see how well his team his, while on the Lakers team, it is more disciplined. I hate hearing the arguement that "if" Lebron didn't play, they would suck ****. Well, the Lakers need Kobe just as much, if not more. With the addition of Artest and Shaq, both teams got even better. Both are great teams and along with the Celtics, Magic, and Spurs, there the class of the NBA.

P.S I'm sorry about how the stats are. I'm a noob when it comes to postings charts and graphs. SORRY :D

The only person on the Cavs who played well in the playoffs outside of LeBron was West.

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 01:54 PM
[QUOTE]True, but Dirk takes 3.6 shots more per 36 minutes to score those 3.2 more points per 36 , very inefficient. Also, one of the most talented Mavs is JKidd who doesn't score or take shots but is great at setting up other players.

You could argue the same about Calderon who averages nearly 9 assists a game, more so than Kidd himself and doesn't really score as well. People argue as of now Calderon is better than Kidd right now, so there shouldn't be any excuse as to why Bosh wouldn't be able to get set up just as well as Nowitzki if not better.




That's a team accomplisment, the Mavs have had more talent recently than the Raptors.

Wrong. Kobe took his Lakers to the playoffs in 06-07 with this team:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html

Take Kobe off and you have possibly the worst team in the west.
Why do you think Dirk won the MVP award in 06-07? They don't just hand them out for no reason. He was the best player on the best team, made his team mates better, and if you were to take him off the team it would have most likely not made the playoffs.

Nowitzki leads his team to 50 or more wins every season. You say Dallas has had more talent then Toronto recently...when was the last time Toronto even won 50 games? That's right, never.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/



Dirk was 6th last year, and 9th in FT% the year before. Bosh is a very good FT shooter (82%) and gets to the line more than Nowitzki.

6th, 9th, who cares. Top 5, top 10 who cares. The fact of the matter is, he is more reliable on the free throw line, especially in the last dying moments of a game when every free throw counts. Bosh is a career average free throw shooter (79.5%), 81.7% last year, again average. Having a go to guy that is among the best at making free throws is a super plus.




2.1 per 36 for Bosh
1.9 per 36 for Dirk

Very marginal difference (Bosh has similar advantages is blocks and steals). Bosh was stuck with a lousy roster, Defenses could focus in on Bosh and force more TO's.

Why are you comparing per 36 minutes? Both players play for about 38. Yes Nowitzki still averages 1.9 turnovers a game but Bosh commits nearly 2.3. Big difference.




A significantly better rebounder, 15.4% to 12.8%

I wouldn't call 1.6 more rebounds per game in more playing time "significant", but whatever floats your boat. Bosh plays more around the rim and has a better post up game. Nowitzki is a shooter that can score from anywhere and everywhere. You're obviously going to get more rebounds being closer to the basket and being a post up player.




What will that accomplish, PSD votes don't make one player better than another. Most people on here don't have league pass so they rarely see games outside of their own home team. I don't think Bosh was on national TV more than a couple times all last season.

No, it's just a poll for fun to show some kind of result and opinion of others as to whom in their opinion is the better player. Don't make assumptions on other people or make excuses, just do it.

I feel bad for Toronto. After Bosh gets out next summer the Raptors will be back to being a lottery team for years to come.

theuuord
09-01-2009, 02:17 PM
:facepalm: At what point did I say they were more important than the big three? I didn't, I said they were given the opportunity to contribute big when it mattered, and that they executed as roll players.

So were the Cavs role players. They just couldn't get it done.


Context? Per 100 possession is a hypothetical statistic. If they never actually get to 100 possessions, then who cares about what they would have averaged if they got there? OK, they had an "efficient offense", and good balance on both sides of the floor, it still doesn't change what they averaged per game. The Magic pushed the tempo and Clevelands "efficiency" went out the window. That starts and ends with Clevelands own failures on defensive, like I said earlier.

lol whaaaaat? Possessions are hypothetical? You said that the Cavs had the 12th best offense in basketball. I show you why you're wrong, and you change the subject.
:eyebrow:
It's not about whether or not they get to 100 possessions. It's a per-possession efficiency rate, which is what basketball is all about.


Okay, if you think per-minute averages are more important, let's play a game. I'll shoot 200 shots in 20 minutes, and you'll shoot 10. Whoever scores more per minute is the better player, right?

Possessions matter because basketball is nothing but a game of possessions. To not account for pace is to not account for how the game is played. The Magic scored the same amount per game because they were playing slower than usual (maybe pushing the tempo compared to the Cavs average speed, but certainly not their own) but shooting much better to offset that difference.
This is not rocket science.



Again, the Magic were consistent, even from behind the 3 point arc. They averaged 38% from behind the arc for the regular season, 38% against the Cavs, and 38% against the Lakers. This hot streak you speak of is statistically false, sorry, it just is. I know they were red hot for a few games, but over the course of two series, they avereaged the exact same % as they did in the regular season. On average, they didn't get hot against the Cavs, and they didn't cool down against the Lakers, they were consistent.

Wrong. I guess it's just cool to make up numbers in your world, but in this place called reality research is a fun tool. The Magic shot 62/152 against the Cavs in their series, which is 40.8 percent - higher than their season average. If you take out the one anomaly - the game 5 loss - they shot 42.5% from 3, which is unbelievable for a team shooting that many threes.
Part of that is riding the hot streak that started in the middle of the Boston series, and part of that is Mike Brown forgetting that defensive schemes were his job.

Oh, and as for the Lakers - again, it's good to see that people still live in fantasyland. But in the actual series, they didn't shoot 38% against the Lakers. They didn't even come close. In fact, they didn't even shoot 38% against them in any one single game in the Finals.

Game 1: 8-23, 34.8%
Game 2: 10-30, 33.3%
Game 3: 5-14, 35.7%
Game 4: 7-21, 33.3%
Game 5: 8-27 29.6%

Could you do some of your new math to explain how that means 38% for the series?

What happened was, they came down from the hot streak, and they faced the Lakers, who were a better and more prepared team than the Cavs. They didn't stand a chance.


Steve Kerr averaged 32% during the 95-96 playoffs, and 38% during the 96-97 playoffs. His averages weren't superb, it is what he did at key moments that mattered, thats why I'm saying. I'm not hanging my hat on Boobie Gibson, you brought him up. This applies to anyone on the Cavs.

Steve Kerr was a proven shooter before the series started. No one on the Cavs short of Mo Williams could even come close to saying the same - and he choked in the Finals. Again, delicious apples, rotten oranges.


Possessions per game has absolutely noting to do with what you average regarding percentage. Possessions per game only effects the number of shots taken, and made, not the %.

This has nothing to do with anything since I proved that you had a serious dearth of research. But for what it's worth:

There's a tricky science to this regarding how as the % of possessions goes up, the efficiency goes down - pretty much for any player in the NBA. It's a standard efficiency curve. This occurs for teams too, although it's less drastic. The more you slow down the game (and therefore the less possessions you use), the more time you allow yourself to create a scoring possession. This isn't steadfastly true - fast breaks, for example, and a couple other factors, such as shooting efficiency at different times in the clock - but over the course of an entire season it makes sense for most teams.



In 97-98 Michael Jordan was regarded as the best player on the planet. Yet, the younger, physically dominant Shaq Oneal had the better stats, a higher PER and all the upside. Why was Jordan still considered the best player? Because he led his team to another ring.

Seriously dude, this research takes all of ten seconds. Shaq played 60 games that season, so to say he led in PER is misleading since he barely played enough games to qualify. For what it's worth, his team didn't even play against the Bulls in the Finals - the Jazz did. Michael was 34, past his statistical prime and was still top 5 in the league in basically everything that he normally was - top 5 in PER, second in both offensive and total win shares (to Karl Malone - and NOBODY was arguing that Malone was the better player), and, oh yeah, he was Michael freaking Jordan, the one exception to every rule about basketball.


This years Kobe/LeBron argument is no different, the guy who won the championship and won finals MVP is the best player, even if the other guy has better statistics and more upside.

I was waiting for someone to compare Kobe and Michael. It's always inevitable. Lakers fans love doing this. Luckily, the rest of us don't care. Michael->Shaq (or, actually, Malone makes more sense in this one) is not equivalent to Kobe->LeBron. LeBron led his team to more wins with less on his team than anyone besides Michael, who is the best player ever and still had more surrounding him. Kobe had Gasol, the best 2nd option in the NBA. Shaq had a young Kobe, a prime Eddie Jones, a prime Nick Van Exel, and a prime Robert Horry. Malone had Stockton. LeBron had.... Mo Williams and his gang of chokers.

Look, I know you love Kobe and all, but when that makes you start to lie about facts and clearly not even spend one second of research on an argument, it doesn't make your point look any stronger. It just looks embarrassing.

ChiSox219
09-01-2009, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=ChiSox219;10714759]

You could argue the same about Calderon who averages nearly 9 assists a game, more so than Kidd himself and doesn't really score as well. People argue as of now Calderon is better than Kidd right now, so there shouldn't be any excuse as to why Bosh wouldn't be able to get set up just as well as Nowitzki if not better.





Wrong. Kobe took his Lakers to the playoffs in 06-07 with this team:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html

Take Kobe off and you have possibly the worst team in the west.
Why do you think Dirk won the MVP award in 06-07? They don't just hand them out for no reason. He was the best player on the best team, made his team mates better, and if you were to take him off the team it would have most likely not made the playoffs.

Nowitzki leads his team to 50 or more wins every season. You say Dallas has had more talent then Toronto recently...when was the last time Toronto even won 50 games? That's right, never.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/




6th, 9th, who cares. Top 5, top 10 who cares. The fact of the matter is, he is more reliable on the free throw line, especially in the last dying moments of a game when every free throw counts. Bosh is a career average free throw shooter (79.5%), 81.7% last year, again average. Having a go to guy that is among the best at making free throws is a super plus.




Why are you comparing per 36 minutes? Both players play for about 38. Yes Nowitzki still averages 1.9 turnovers a game but Bosh commits nearly 2.3. Big difference.





I wouldn't call 1.6 more rebounds per game in more playing time "significant", but whatever floats your boat. Bosh plays more around the rim and has a better post up game. Nowitzki is a shooter that can score from anywhere and everywhere. You're obviously going to get more rebounds being closer to the basket and being a post up player.





No, it's just a poll for fun to show some kind of result and opinion of others as to whom in their opinion is the better player. Don't make assumptions on other people or make excuses, just do it.

I feel bad for Toronto. After Bosh gets out next summer the Raptors will be back to being a lottery team for years to come.

Donk

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 04:14 PM
Donk

:eyebrow: Great response.

_KB24_
09-01-2009, 04:24 PM
I was waiting for someone to compare Kobe and Michael. It's always inevitable. Lakers fans love doing this. Luckily, the rest of us don't care. Michael->Shaq (or, actually, Malone makes more sense in this one) is not equivalent to Kobe->LeBron. LeBron led his team to more wins with less on his team than anyone besides Michael, who is the best player ever and still had more surrounding him. Kobe had Gasol, the best 2nd option in the NBA. Shaq had a young Kobe, a prime Eddie Jones, a prime Nick Van Exel, and a prime Robert Horry. Malone had Stockton. LeBron had.... Mo Williams and his gang of chokers.

Look, I know you love Kobe and all, but when that makes you start to lie about facts and clearly not even spend one second of research on an argument, it doesn't make your point look any stronger. It just looks embarrassing.

Van Exel hardly played with Shaq for 2 seasons. And same with Eddie, he played only three. They didn't even win a ring together or have playoff success.

Jahari Kavi
09-01-2009, 04:38 PM
Dirk is not a top 10 player........Melo should easily be placed in the top 10 after last season............

Jahari Kavi
09-01-2009, 04:45 PM
wow you sure look dumb now didn't you read what i said about lebron he's all stats and hype and the first things you bring up are stats to prove your point omg

so what sort of measurement are you using when you're comparing players??? :confused:

I agree that stats aren't "everything," but to totally disregard them is borderline insane..........

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 04:46 PM
That's about right. Although I'd put Nowitzki over Duncan right now

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 04:47 PM
Dirk is not a top 10 player........Melo should easily be placed in the top 10 after last season............

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

_KB24_
09-01-2009, 04:55 PM
^^ Why you laughing so much? Hes right.

NYtilIdie
09-01-2009, 04:58 PM
this isn't going to end well.

Calling it now 5+ pages of Kobe vs Lebron arguments.

_KB24_
09-01-2009, 04:59 PM
KG should be above both Duncan and Nowitzki....

roshan3ai
09-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Having Gerald Wallace at #91 is a joke. It's laughable looking at some of the guys ahead of him.

x2

nrvana
09-01-2009, 05:04 PM
parker should replace duncan in the top 10. he's surpassed duncan in terms of being the spurs best and most important player imo.

LanceUpperCut
09-01-2009, 05:04 PM
Pierce way to high other than that looks pretty good.

ChiSox219
09-01-2009, 05:07 PM
^^ Why you laughing so much? Hes right.

I know, right?

Raidaz4Life
09-01-2009, 05:08 PM
I think Bosh, Duncan, Pierce, and Tony Parker are too high.

bigsams50
09-01-2009, 05:10 PM
KG should be above both Duncan and Nowitzki....

:clap:

Bruno
09-01-2009, 05:20 PM
Wrong. I guess it's just cool to make up numbers in your world, but in this place called reality research is a fun tool. The Magic shot 62/152 against the Cavs in their series, which is 40.8 percent - higher than their season average. If you take out the one anomaly - the game 5 loss - they shot 42.5% from 3, which is unbelievable for a team shooting that many threes.
Part of that is riding the hot streak that started in the middle of the Boston series, and part of that is Mike Brown forgetting that defensive schemes were his job.

Oh, and as for the Lakers - again, it's good to see that people still live in fantasyland. But in the actual series, they didn't shoot 38% against the Lakers. They didn't even come close. In fact, they didn't even shoot 38% against them in any one single game in the Finals.

Game 1: 8-23, 34.8%
Game 2: 10-30, 33.3%
Game 3: 5-14, 35.7%
Game 4: 7-21, 33.3%
Game 5: 8-27 29.6%

Could you do some of your new math to explain how that means 38% for the series?



You're right on the three point percentages. I read the stats on ESPN wrong. They have their season averages under each series, I didn't realize that was their season averages, and not their averages for the series, my mistake.

SeoulBeatz
09-01-2009, 05:30 PM
glad to see Andre Iguodala making the cutoff at #25!

bigsams50
09-01-2009, 05:33 PM
how is dirk not a top 10 player?

macc
09-01-2009, 05:43 PM
I think the list is pretty decent. I've seen much worse lists.

theuuord
09-01-2009, 06:44 PM
Van Exel hardly played with Shaq for 2 seasons. And same with Eddie, he played only three. They didn't even win a ring together or have playoff success.

And LeBron has played with Mo Williams for one and Delonte West for one and a half.
What's your point?

theuuord
09-01-2009, 06:45 PM
You're right on the three point percentages. I read the stats on ESPN wrong. They have their season averages under each series, I didn't realize that was their season averages, and not their averages for the series, my mistake.

Glad to see you owned up to a mistake. I respect that and appreciate it. A lot of people on PSD just run away.

theuuord
09-01-2009, 06:48 PM
(that being said, there's still a lot more of that post you didn't respond to.)

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 06:51 PM
^^ Why you laughing so much? Hes right.

You're agreeing that Nowitzki isn't a top 10 player or that Melo is top 10?

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 06:53 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Nowitzki is a top 10 player needs to get smacked.

theuuord
09-01-2009, 06:59 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Nowitzki is a top 10 player needs to get smacked.

imo he's not a top 7 player but he probably falls in the 8-10 range.

Jahari Kavi
09-01-2009, 07:02 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

so Melo leads his team past Dirk and he's not worthy of being placed ahead of him????????????

NYYankeesWin#27
09-01-2009, 07:16 PM
where is wilson chandler?

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 07:19 PM
so Melo leads his team past Dirk and he's not worthy of being placed ahead of him????????????

No Billups does

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 07:22 PM
Denver had Billups Melo JR Smith Nene and Birdman

good front court and back court

Our back court featured Antoine ****ing Wright and Jason Kidd with Howard guarding Melo on a bad ankle and Dampier as our starting center

Their team as a whole beat us, not Melo

Without Billups, Denver is a 8th seed

NYtilIdie
09-01-2009, 07:38 PM
If Melo struggled the Nuggets would have been eliminated by the Mavs cause both JR and Billiups struggled the whole the playoffs so the Nuggets were basically running on Melo.

Since Melo was dominate the whole the playoffs he should be higher then Dirk.

Jahari Kavi
09-01-2009, 07:38 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Nowitzki is a top 10 player needs to get smacked.

well...get ta smacking.....Dirk is a good talent who puts up good numbers, but he lacks in

a.) killer instinct in the 4th period
b.) a post up game and this has hurt him over his career...particularly in the 4th quarter
c.) defensive abilities
d.) leadership


If you gave me 10 players to build a franchise around, Dirk wouldn't be one of them.

Jahari Kavi
09-01-2009, 07:39 PM
Denver had Billups Melo JR Smith Nene and Birdman

good front court and back court

Our back court featured Antoine ****ing Wright and Jason Kidd with Howard guarding Melo on a bad ankle and Dampier as our starting center

Their team as a whole beat us, not Melo

Without Billups, Denver is a 8th seed


but Melo can't help that he has good teammates.....I'm trying to find why saying Melo is better than dirk is laughable? He made a lot of improvements this year and has an all around game, that most in the NBA can't match.

nrvana
09-01-2009, 08:25 PM
If you gave me 10 players to build a franchise around, Dirk wouldn't be one of them.

conversely, if you give me 10 players to build a franchise around.. melo wouldn't be one of them either.

i'd take lebron or KD at SF over melo.

heattiltheend94
09-01-2009, 08:36 PM
the biggest screw up with this is with Vince CARTER not being higher up, he belongs in numero 23 in front of Iguodala

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 08:39 PM
but Melo can't help that he has good teammates.....I'm trying to find why saying Melo is better than dirk is laughable? He made a lot of improvements this year and has an all around game, that most in the NBA can't match.

Stats that matter when comparing forwards:

PPG:
Melo = 22.8
Dirk = 25.9

RPG:
Melo = 6.8
Dirk = 8.4

FG%
Melo = 44%
Dirk = 48%

Dirk only plays 2 more minutes a game. Also Melo does not have all around game, he has great offensive game but his defense is just average.

_KB24_
09-01-2009, 08:40 PM
You're agreeing that Nowitzki isn't a top 10 player or that Melo is top 10?

Both. Melo is the 2nd best SF in the Game while Dirk is behind Duncan, Garnett, Bosh, and Gasol.

InfamousTHC
09-01-2009, 08:40 PM
Where is Yao Ming?

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 08:42 PM
Both. Melo is the 2nd best SF in the Game while Dirk is behind Duncan, Garnett, Bosh, and Gasol.

Dirk behind Bosh and Gasol? He's even higher than KG at this point. Wow.

:facepalm:

Mavrix
09-01-2009, 08:43 PM
_KB24_ your quote is almost sig worthy.

Diggy_2
09-01-2009, 08:51 PM
Blake Griffin should not be on the list because he never played in a REAL NBA game yet

twoearl
09-01-2009, 08:59 PM
Dirk in the top ten and over KG? That is crazy. I would put Dirk right after melo and before gasol...

Heatwave Inc.
09-01-2009, 08:59 PM
Firstly I agree with Caron Butlers placement (although I would have personally ranked him before Igoudala and Joe Johnson) But how do you put ALLEN IVERSON at 68?....................Hall of Famer, Record Breaker, and look who he took to the finals:

Eric Snow
Aaron Mckie
Dikembe Mutombo (I'll Give you Dikembe)
Tyrone Hill
Raja Bell (before the jumper)
Kevin Ollie

Really?:clap:

ARMIN12NBA
09-01-2009, 09:02 PM
Firstly I agree with Caron Butlers placement (although I would have personally ranked him before Igoudala and Joe Johnson) But how do you put ALLEN IVERSON at 68?....................Hall of Famer, Record Breaker, and look who he took to the finals:

Eric Snow
Aaron Mckie
Dikembe Mutombo (I'll Give you Dikembe)
Tyrone Hill
Raja Bell (before the jumper)
Kevin Ollie

Really?:clap:

This is about 2010. Not 2001.

_KB24_
09-01-2009, 09:21 PM
_KB24_ your quote is almost sig worthy.

Put it up on yours sig in BOLD LETTERING so you can accept it.

Westbrook36
09-06-2009, 01:45 PM
12. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City = :facepalm:

He should be around 20ish.

BradHolt4CYoung
09-06-2009, 01:51 PM
I think Durant is better then Roy by a tiny bit.