PDA

View Full Version : Slams top 50 all time



Ebbs
08-30-2009, 02:00 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Jerry West
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Pettit
15. Julius Erving
16. Moses Malone
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. John Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Bob Cousy
25. David Robinson
26. Kevin McHale
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Jason Kidd
29. George Mikan
30. Kevin Garnett
31. Willis Reed
32. Wes Unseld
33. Nate Thurmond
34. Dolph Schayes
35. Walt Frazier
36. Patrick Ewing
37. Jerry Lucas
38. Gary Payton
39. Allen Iverson
40. Billy Cunningham
41. Clyde Drexler
42. LeBron James
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Dave Cowens
45. George Gervin
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Earl Monroe
48. Dennis Rodman
49. Walt Bellamy
50. Steve Nash

I dont completely agree with the order i think a couple people should be on that arent such as Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups.

What are your thoughts heres the link if you want to know why they rated who where.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/

bigsams50
08-30-2009, 02:02 PM
i think kg deserves to he higher

fairandbalanced
08-30-2009, 02:08 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Jerry West
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Pettit
15. Julius Erving
16. Moses Malone
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. John Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Bob Cousy
25. David Robinson
26. Kevin McHale
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Jason Kidd
29. George Mikan
30. Kevin Garnett
31. Willis Reed
32. Wes Unseld
33. Nate Thurmond
34. Dolph Schayes
35. Walt Frazier
36. Patrick Ewing
37. Jerry Lucas
38. Gary Payton
39. Allen Iverson
40. Billy Cunningham
41. Clyde Drexler
42. LeBron James
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Dave Cowens
45. George Gervin
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Earl Monroe
48. Dennis Rodman
49. Walt Bellamy
50. Steve Nash

I dont completely agree with the order i think a couple people should be on that arent such as Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups.

What are your thoughts heres the link if you want to know why they rated who where.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/

Wade has done more than Lebron, Iverson, Nash, Bellamy, Wilkins, Ewing, Payton....

AKA TheMamba
08-30-2009, 02:09 PM
billy cunningham over LBJ hahaha he was good but Lebron already shows more skills than cunningham ever did in his career. No hate and I love ol school bballers but be real with the list. whatever though... writer must be old and did not do his research well

Hustla23
08-30-2009, 02:10 PM
This is such a stupid list....

lakers4sho
08-30-2009, 02:12 PM
:puke:

Magic at 5? Kareem at 6? Larry at 9?? SHAQ at 4??????

dudeonthemoon
08-30-2009, 02:18 PM
dwade has a ring lebron doesnt. I think wade should be on there or both of them shouldnt be on the list. How is a player who only has individual accolades be on the list after only being in the association for 6 years??? He hasnt won jack for his team

ackar
08-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Decent list hard to argue any of them but there will always be an exception here and there. It is just a list nothing finite. Anyone can make a list but this one is not that bad.

theuuord
08-30-2009, 02:22 PM
Olajuwon should be higher, Chamberlain should be lower, LeBron will rocket up this list over the next 10 years, and a lot of other complaints. That being said, it's harder to make a top 50 list than it looks.

jimm120
08-30-2009, 02:26 PM
I wish Ewing was higher...but yeah, I know that he is around where he belongs.


Wade has done more than Lebron, Iverson, Nash, Bellamy, Wilkins, Ewing, Payton....

Its an insult to include Ewing in that category you made. Ewing was great. With no offensive support, he carried the Knicks to the playoffs EVERY single year. I liked Starks, but in all honesty, he was a #3 player (kind of like Mo Williams).

I don't believe LeBron should be up there yet. Wade, imo, has done more (and I don't mean just win a championship) than LeBron overall. But I do feel that if LeBron does the correct things (eg. go to NY Knicks), he'll be skyrocketing up that list. Hell, even if he stays in crappy places, he'll still deserve a spot (doesn't deserve it yet imo). Wade, imo, will most probably end up somewhere around the 40's and LeBron in the 30's if he stays in bad places or in the teens if he moves to a better team.

But Ewing, Payton, and Wade do deserve to be on that list. LeBron...not Yet.



Magic at 5? Kareem at 6? Larry at 9?? SHAQ at 4??????

Dude, have you not seen the dominance of Shaq since '94? The guy has been a monster. Might not have been the fastest or best shooter but the type of dominance he displayed is unmatched. Not even the horrible Jordan, who had Dominance (high levels too) but complimented it with tons of finesse to become teh #1 player. I hated the Lakers, so I was forced to not pay attention to Shaq when he was in LA, but I loved him in Orlando, in Miami (even though the Heat are the archrivals of the Knicks), in Pheonix, and I hate Cleveland, but I'll root for him there even.

D Roses Bulls
08-30-2009, 02:27 PM
good list cant argue except wade should be on this list and i agree he has done way more then lebron. i think pippen could be a little higher on here though.

and for the haters.... cant wait for Derrick Rose to be put on this list one day.

theuuord
08-30-2009, 02:34 PM
[quote]I don't believe LeBron should be up there yet. Wade, imo, has done more (and I don't mean just win a championship) than LeBron overall.

Could you please elaborate on this comment? I'm curious what people think Wade has done more overall than LeBron, especially taking the championship out of the equation.

dre1990
08-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Love the love for Dennis Rodman

ManRam
08-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Wade has done more than Lebron, Iverson, Nash, Bellamy, Wilkins, Ewing, Payton....

Why...because his team won a title? I'll take any of those players over Wade in a heartbeat.

All those guys had long careers (minus LeBron, but he is a better player than Wade in the first place), most had MVP awards (even Nash has multiple ones). Ewing was a star for a looooong time. Payton is one of the greatest defenders ever, and again...has a long career to prove it. You could argue that Bellamy doesn't deserve it...but even so, Wade needs more years under his belt before he moves up the all time rankings. Just give him some time.

I like the list overall. I could get real nit-picky, like say that Hakeem should be #10, I think Bird is #3 (my biggest issue)...but all in all it's a solid list.

ko8e24
08-30-2009, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=jimm120;10697302]


Could you please elaborate on this comment? I'm curious what people think Wade has done more overall than LeBron, especially taking the championship out of the equation.

Let's see here

2006 NBA Finals

Miami 4 Dallas 2 Finals MVP: Dwyane Wade (yes, free throws, refs, blah, blah, blah, but he saved the championship in the 4th qtr of game 3 in miami)


2007 NBA Finals (SWEEP, lowest rated NBA Finals in history)

San Antonio 4 Cleveland 0 Finals MVP: Tony Parker

ko8e24
08-30-2009, 02:43 PM
and as much as i love the Laker great ELgin Baylor, he can't possibly be above Kobe. Baylor has no championships unfortunately. kobe has 4 rings and a finals mvp. so kobe should be #11, not 12. and after next yr, when kobe gets ring #5, he'll surpass Jerry West (love the Laker great), who has 1 ring and 1 finals mvp (a yr when he lost the title I believe in 1969 to the Celtics in 7 games). Kobe should crack the Top 10 by 2010.

theuuord
08-30-2009, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=theuuord;10697356]

Let's see here

2006 NBA Finals

Miami 4 Dallas 2 Finals MVP: Dwyane Wade (yes, free throws, refs, blah, blah, blah, but he saved the championship in the 4th qtr of game 3 in miami)


2007 NBA Finals (SWEEP, lowest rated NBA Finals in history)

San Antonio 4 Cleveland 0 Finals MVP: Tony Parker

He said while taking the championship out of the equation. Please read the comments you reply to. Thanks.

kozelkid
08-30-2009, 02:45 PM
Wade has done more than Lebron, Iverson, Nash, Bellamy, Wilkins, Ewing, Payton....

You clearly know very little about NBA history if you are ready to take Wade over Payton, Ewing, Wilkins, or Bellamy.
Wade deserves to be on the list though.

The Panch
08-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Reggie Miller not even top 50, wow, just shows players on small market teams get no love, I'm pretty sure Knicks fans would put him on here after what he did to them and Spike Lee. Reggies about the only problem I have, and I think Lebron shouldn't be there yet.

D Roses Bulls
08-30-2009, 03:01 PM
wait wait..... so everyone that is saying what has wade done more then lebron with taking a championship out of the equation is well..... not them but that statement is dumb. its not always, but most of the time about championships. so you dont wanna talk about the fact that wade carried his team in the finals for that championship fine. lets talk about what else he did. led a team when your second scoring option is michael beasley for god sacks to the playoffs as the 6th seed. he did carry that redeem team to the gold regardless some of you are going to say it was kobe but wade led them in points and steals and made the big plays when it counted. the man makes everyone around him better i mean look at mario chalmers who many thought was going to be riding the bench, but is a legit starter and i think thats cause of wade. i mean really what has lebron done? a regular season mvp? sorry but id rather have a finals mvp and dont give me no excuse they didnt have a good team this past season cause they did. he got swept in the finals, lost last year to the magic in 5. didnt even make the playoffs his first like 3 years while wade carried that scrub miami team he had to the second round in his rookie year. the only year wade hasnt made the playoffs was last year and wade was hurt practically the whole year. lebrons been in the league 6 years and still does not have a jumper that consistently falls. so tell me how is lebron better and more deserving to be on this list? cause he scored a lot of points? but where has that got him and his team? no where

ko8e24
08-30-2009, 03:02 PM
[QUOTE=ko8e24;10697390]

He said while taking the championship out of the equation. Please read the comments you reply to. Thanks.

finals mvp is what i bolded yo. see where im goin with this thing.


u know how all u laker haters always used to discredit kobe on his first 3 rings cuz shaq was finals mvp?????????


ya, so can't use that "excuse" for d-wade in 06, with him being "teammates with shaq".

plus, when wade was a rookie, his team got to the playoffs, lebron didn't make it to the playoffs in the weak east in 2004 and 2005. Yes, wade did not make it in 2008 when shaq basically wanted a trade, and eventually did get traded to phoenix, leaving an injury ridden d-wade high and dry.





oh and on that account of discrediting kobe, it's been nice to see all of u haters' mouth finally being shut for good after that historical night on June 14th, 2009 :D

ko8e24
08-30-2009, 03:03 PM
Reggie Miller not even top 50, wow, just shows players on small market teams get no love, I'm pretty sure Knicks fans would put him on here after what he did to them and Spike Lee. Reggies about the only problem I have, and I think Lebron shouldn't be there yet.

reggie miller is top 25-30 hands down! the greatest 3 point shooter in nba history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RaptorsFanatic
08-30-2009, 03:05 PM
Shaq at 4 is the biggest surprise to me.

theuuord
08-30-2009, 03:13 PM
finals mvp is what i bolded yo. see where im goin with this thing.

Which only occurred because they won the championship. This is not rocket science.


u know how all u laker haters always used to discredit kobe on his first 3 rings cuz shaq was finals mvp?????????


ya, so can't use that "excuse" for d-wade in 06, with him being "teammates with shaq".

Oh.

You're just making this another Kobe thread.

goody.


plus, when wade was a rookie, his team got to the playoffs, lebron didn't make it to the playoffs in the weak east in 2004 and 2005. Yes, wade did not make it in 2008 when shaq basically wanted a trade, and eventually did get traded to phoenix, leaving an injury ridden d-wade high and dry.

Point being?



oh and on that account of discrediting kobe, it's been nice to see all of u haters' mouth finally being shut for good after that historical night on June 14th, 2009 :D

you're the only one talking about Kobe.

:facepalm:

GSRaider
08-30-2009, 03:14 PM
There's only one thing that really erks me... Where is Reggie Miller?????? Miller is top 50 for sure... I also thought shaq was A little high...

JordansBulls
08-30-2009, 03:35 PM
Reggie should easily be top 50

Toenail Clipper
08-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Why is Tim Duncan above of Kobe Bryant?

ink
08-30-2009, 04:23 PM
Why is Tim Duncan above of Kobe Bryant?

Because he belongs there? :shrug: I was very happy to see TD in the top 10.

Anyway, I'm not interested in a Kobe thread.

Shaq at #4 is ridiculous. There is no way that he should be rated ahead of Magic Johnson.

ChiSox219
08-30-2009, 05:09 PM
Because he belongs there? :shrug: I was very happy to see TD in the top 10.

Anyway, I'm not interested in a Kobe thread.

Shaq at #4 is ridiculous. There is no way that he should be rated ahead of Magic Johnson.

I don't see a case for Magic above Shaq, but I am interested to hear why you think so

JordansBulls
08-30-2009, 05:14 PM
I don't see a case for Magic above Shaq, but I am interested to hear why you think so

How about the only other player that has 3 Finals MVP's and 3 Season MVP's are Magic and MJ.

ink
08-30-2009, 05:28 PM
I don't see a case for Magic above Shaq, but I am interested to hear why you think so

Athleticism, versatility, intelligence, stats (career: 19.5PPG, 11.2APG, 7.2TRB, .520FG%, Ortg - 121, Drtg - 104 ... both higher than Shaq's), unparalleled teammate and leader. First and foremost, his success is not based primarily on pure size like Shaq's is/was. I really dislike the Shaq era and can't wait for him to retire. I'd take an athletic NBA player over a physical freak any time. Shaq's dominance has had everything to do with his physical size advantage. Magic's had everything to do with being one of the purest, most versatile players to lace em up since Oscar. I've said before that I'd take Magic over MJ, so it's no surprise that I'd take Magic over Shaq. In fact, I'd take TD over Shaq too. Better all-round basketball player. Shaq is top 10 IMHO, probably something like 9-10, right behind Duncan.

1. Magic Johnson (realistically he's behind MJ, but I'd still take Magic).
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Jerry West

ChiSox219
08-30-2009, 05:45 PM
Athleticism, versatility, intelligence, stats (career: 19.5PPG, 11.2APG, 7.2TRB, .520FG%, Ortg - 121, Drtg - 104 ... both higher than Shaq's), unparalleled teammate and leader. First and foremost, his success is not based primarily on pure size like Shaq's is/was. I really dislike the Shaq era and can't wait for him to retire. I'd take an athletic NBA player over a physical freak any time. Shaq's dominance has had everything to do with his physical size advantage. Magic's had everything to do with being one of the purest, most versatile players to lace em up since Oscar. I've said before that I'd take Magic over MJ, so it's no surprise that I'd take Magic over Shaq. In fact, I'd take TD over Shaq too. Better all-round basketball player. Shaq is top 10 IMHO, probably something like 9-10, right behind Duncan.

that is far from the truth, anyhow Magic used his size to his advantage as well, half a foot taller than most PGs

I put Shaq only behind MJ and Wilt. Ahead of Russell because of the era.

I put very little stock in the defensive rating stat, as it has Jordan listed 144th, just my opinion.

JordansBulls
08-30-2009, 05:58 PM
Athleticism, versatility, intelligence, stats (career: 19.5PPG, 11.2APG, 7.2TRB, .520FG%, Ortg - 121, Drtg - 104 ... both higher than Shaq's), unparalleled teammate and leader. First and foremost, his success is not based primarily on pure size like Shaq's is/was. I really dislike the Shaq era and can't wait for him to retire. I'd take an athletic NBA player over a physical freak any time. Shaq's dominance has had everything to do with his physical size advantage. Magic's had everything to do with being one of the purest, most versatile players to lace em up since Oscar. I've said before that I'd take Magic over MJ, so it's no surprise that I'd take Magic over Shaq. In fact, I'd take TD over Shaq too. Better all-round basketball player. Shaq is top 10 IMHO, probably something like 9-10, right behind Duncan.

1. Magic Johnson (realistically he's behind MJ, but I'd still take Magic).
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Jerry West

There is no way you can have Magic and Bird separated that much apart.


Magic was great, but IMO how can you be considered the best of all time if you were not great on both ends? This is a big reason why MJ, Kareem and Wilt are the 3 most talked about for GOAT. Because while Russell has the titles and the defense, he wasn't great on offense. Magic has the offense and playmaking ability but he wasn't great on defense.

As for why Jordan is usually the majority pick for GOAT over those two in particular (disregarding Wilt/Kareem etc.), there are a couple of reasons:


- Statistical dominance. Though Magic and Bird both put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird and Magic did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd.



- Achievements, such as MVP's, Finals MVP's, DPOY award, and first-team and defensive first-team selections. Jordan had 5 MVP's to Magic and Bird's 3 apiece; he had 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3 and Bird's 2. He had a DPOY award that Magic and Bird could never hope to get. He had 10 all-NBA first-team selections to Magic's 9 and Bird's 9. Yes, Magic would have had more had he not retired and Bird would've had more if not for injuries, but Jordan would have also had 2 more had he not retired in '93, and likely a third had he not broken his foot in '86, so it's no use playing the "what if" game. Jordan also had 9 defensive first-team selections to Magic's none and Bird's 3 defensive second-team selections.


- Championships. Simply put, Jordan (6) has more than either Bird (3) or Magic (5). Yes, Bird and Magic had to beat each other for rings, which precluded either of them from getting more, but they each also had tons more help than Jordan did. Regardless, arguments about league strength aside, Jordan just has more, and his period of dominance was longer than Magic or Bird's. Also, this is only one aspect of the overall picture, so even if you feel that MJ's 6 rings don't hold as much weight as Magic's 5 (though I personally feel that the strength of Magic's supporting cast relative to Jordan's is enough to counterbalance the supposedly "weaker era" and make them relatively equal accomplishments)-- but if you disagree, then just realize that this is only one aspect of a larger picture.


- Overall skill. All three were among the top 5 or 6 most skilled players of all-time imo, and each had advantages over the others in various areas. Bird was the best rebounder of the bunch, Magic the best passer, Jordan the best scorer and defender. However, in their respective primes, the edges that Bird and Magic had on Jordan in these categories is not as large as the edge that Jordan had on Magic and Bird in his pet categories. For example, in his prime, Bird was capable of getting 13-17 rebounds on any given night, while in his prime, Jordan was capable of grabbing 11-14 rebounds on any given night. Magic in his prime could dish out 13-17 assists on any given night, whereas Jordan in his prime could dish out 10-14 assists on any given night. However, scoring-wise, Jordan was good for 45-55 on any given night while Bird was good for about 35-40 or so on any given night, and Magic "only" about 30-35.

Also defensively, Jordan was capable of disrupting entire teams' offenses in a way that neither Magic nor Bird were ever remotely capable of; he was also capable of playing lock-down defense, which neither of them really could, and he did so fairly consistently. I have a game vs. Boston on DVD from '88 where Jordan has 8 steals at the half, and Boston literally could not run the plays they wanted to because of Jordan's presence on the court. Bird looked exasperated. He could almost singlehandedly take opposing big men out of the game with his help defense from up top and the weak side. At any rate, the gap in defense between Jordan and Magic/Bird is much more significant than Bird's edge in rebounding and Magic's edge in passing in their respective primes imo. At the very least, these 3 are a wash skill-wise.


- Clutch play and dominance. Magic was clutch, to be certain, even if his clutchness often manifested itself in different ways than MJ's clutchness usually did. Bird was, obviously, a top 3 clutch player all-time (along w/Jordan and West imo), so he's in that conversation. Still, Jordan is generally considered to be the most clutch of the three, though it's not a huge advantage by any means. While all three were capable of beating you with the shot, rebound, or pass (some better than others in each category, but all capable), Jordan was a clutch defender as well, and could come up with the key block or steal or denial of a shot attempt by his man when it counted to a far greater degree than either Bird or Magic. Bird and Magic made up for their comparative lack of defensive ability with their canniness (e.g., Bird's steal vs. Detroit in the ECF), but it wasn't nearly on the same level as Jordan. Also, of the two, only Bird approaches Jordan's dominance over the league in terms of "who is the biggest bad guy? Who don't you want to piss off?" Bird was a bad, bad man. Jordan was badder, and he maintained that status for longer (through no fault of Bird's own; his injuries really robbed him of a few of his prime years).


You put all these things together and it's difficult to pick Magic or Bird over Jordan, for me at least. I have no problem admitting that all are on the same relative level. If Bird's prime wasn't cut short, he would've went down as better than Magic imo, since his peak play ('84-'86) was better than Magic's peak play ('86-'89). Like Jerry West said of Jordan in 1993: "he's the best offensive player in the league, he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best competitor, playing on a team that, while suited to him, is not an ideal team. He carries that team; and very rarely do you see players carry teams to victories, much less championships. And if there's ever going to be a player who comes along that's better, I think we're all going to be sitting here scratching our heads."


And then when you realize that Magic was upset in the playoffs a few times. In 1981 he lost to a team below .500. He lost in 1986 and 1990 to teams he had a better record then.


GOAT Candidates in Series with HCA and/or Top Seed or Same Record


Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA and 25-0 in series with HCA/Top Seed/Same Seed/Higher Seed
Kareem 35-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA




Current Players

Shaq 23-4 in Series with HCA - (5-2 with Orl and 14-1 with LA = 19-3 and 4-1 in Miami)
Duncan 21-4 in Series with HCA - (Lost with Same Record in 2002 against the Lakers) so that is 21-5
Kobe 21-1 in series with HCA and 21-2 in series with HCA/Top Seed

ink
08-30-2009, 06:05 PM
Good analysis JB but as I said I pick Magic even though realistically he should be behind Jordan. To me as a fan the Showtime Lakers were better than the Bulls too. Maybe that's because I watched the Lakers when I was a kid and I was introduced to the game by watching that team, but I'll always take Magic over MJ. To me, the others are quite a distance behind those two.

ChiSox219
08-30-2009, 06:06 PM
There is no way you can have Magic and Bird separated that much apart.


Magic was great, but IMO how can you be considered the best of all time if you were not great on both ends? This is a big reason why MJ, Kareem and Wilt are the 3 most talked about for GOAT. Because while Russell has the titles and the defense, he wasn't great on offense. Magic has the offense and playmaking ability but he wasn't great on defense.

As for why Jordan is usually the majority pick for GOAT over those two in particular (disregarding Wilt/Kareem etc.), there are a couple of reasons:


- Statistical dominance. Though Magic and Bird both put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird and Magic did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd.



- Achievements, such as MVP's, Finals MVP's, DPOY award, and first-team and defensive first-team selections. Jordan had 5 MVP's to Magic and Bird's 3 apiece; he had 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3 and Bird's 2. He had a DPOY award that Magic and Bird could never hope to get. He had 10 all-NBA first-team selections to Magic's 9 and Bird's 9. Yes, Magic would have had more had he not retired and Bird would've had more if not for injuries, but Jordan would have also had 2 more had he not retired in '93, and likely a third had he not broken his foot in '86, so it's no use playing the "what if" game. Jordan also had 9 defensive first-team selections to Magic's none and Bird's 3 defensive second-team selections.


- Championships. Simply put, Jordan (6) has more than either Bird (3) or Magic (5). Yes, Bird and Magic had to beat each other for rings, which precluded either of them from getting more, but they each also had tons more help than Jordan did. Regardless, arguments about league strength aside, Jordan just has more, and his period of dominance was longer than Magic or Bird's. Also, this is only one aspect of the overall picture, so even if you feel that MJ's 6 rings don't hold as much weight as Magic's 5 (though I personally feel that the strength of Magic's supporting cast relative to Jordan's is enough to counterbalance the supposedly "weaker era" and make them relatively equal accomplishments)-- but if you disagree, then just realize that this is only one aspect of a larger picture.


- Overall skill. All three were among the top 5 or 6 most skilled players of all-time imo, and each had advantages over the others in various areas. Bird was the best rebounder of the bunch, Magic the best passer, Jordan the best scorer and defender. However, in their respective primes, the edges that Bird and Magic had on Jordan in these categories is not as large as the edge that Jordan had on Magic and Bird in his pet categories. For example, in his prime, Bird was capable of getting 13-17 rebounds on any given night, while in his prime, Jordan was capable of grabbing 11-14 rebounds on any given night. Magic in his prime could dish out 13-17 assists on any given night, whereas Jordan in his prime could dish out 10-14 assists on any given night. However, scoring-wise, Jordan was good for 45-55 on any given night while Bird was good for about 35-40 or so on any given night, and Magic "only" about 30-35.

Also defensively, Jordan was capable of disrupting entire teams' offenses in a way that neither Magic nor Bird were ever remotely capable of; he was also capable of playing lock-down defense, which neither of them really could, and he did so fairly consistently. I have a game vs. Boston on DVD from '88 where Jordan has 8 steals at the half, and Boston literally could not run the plays they wanted to because of Jordan's presence on the court. Bird looked exasperated. He could almost singlehandedly take opposing big men out of the game with his help defense from up top and the weak side. At any rate, the gap in defense between Jordan and Magic/Bird is much more significant than Bird's edge in rebounding and Magic's edge in passing in their respective primes imo. At the very least, these 3 are a wash skill-wise.


- Clutch play and dominance. Magic was clutch, to be certain, even if his clutchness often manifested itself in different ways than MJ's clutchness usually did. Bird was, obviously, a top 3 clutch player all-time (along w/Jordan and West imo), so he's in that conversation. Still, Jordan is generally considered to be the most clutch of the three, though it's not a huge advantage by any means. While all three were capable of beating you with the shot, rebound, or pass (some better than others in each category, but all capable), Jordan was a clutch defender as well, and could come up with the key block or steal or denial of a shot attempt by his man when it counted to a far greater degree than either Bird or Magic. Bird and Magic made up for their comparative lack of defensive ability with their canniness (e.g., Bird's steal vs. Detroit in the ECF), but it wasn't nearly on the same level as Jordan. Also, of the two, only Bird approaches Jordan's dominance over the league in terms of "who is the biggest bad guy? Who don't you want to piss off?" Bird was a bad, bad man. Jordan was badder, and he maintained that status for longer (through no fault of Bird's own; his injuries really robbed him of a few of his prime years).


You put all these things together and it's difficult to pick Magic or Bird over Jordan, for me at least. I have no problem admitting that all are on the same relative level. If Bird's prime wasn't cut short, he would've went down as better than Magic imo, since his peak play ('84-'86) was better than Magic's peak play ('86-'89). Like Jerry West said of Jordan in 1993: "he's the best offensive player in the league, he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best competitor, playing on a team that, while suited to him, is not an ideal team. He carries that team; and very rarely do you see players carry teams to victories, much less championships. And if there's ever going to be a player who comes along that's better, I think we're all going to be sitting here scratching our heads."


And then when you realize that Magic was upset in the playoffs a few times. In 1981 he lost to a team below .500. He lost in 1986 and 1990 to teams he had a better record then.


GOAT Candidates in Series with HCA and/or Top Seed or Same Record


Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA and 25-0 in series with HCA/Top Seed/Same Seed/Higher Seed
Kareem 35-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA




Current Players

Shaq 23-4 in Series with HCA - (5-2 with Orl and 14-1 with LA = 19-3 and 4-1 in Miami)
Duncan 21-4 in Series with HCA - (Lost with Same Record in 2002 against the Lakers) so that is 21-5
Kobe 21-1 in series with HCA and 21-2 in series with HCA/Top Seed

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

JordansBulls
08-30-2009, 06:11 PM
Good analysis JB but as I said I pick Magic even though realistically he should be behind Jordan. To me as a fan the Showtime Lakers were better than the Bulls too. Maybe that's because I watched the Lakers when I was a kid and I was introduced to the game by watching that team, but I'll always take Magic over MJ. To me, the others are quite a distance behind those two.

I can respect that.

I'll give you a little more analysis though.
:)


Here were the requirements

NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)

This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points


Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 74 total points
3rd Place: KB, 66 total points

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Magic Johnson says there is no debate.
"Michael is the greatest player ever, and Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever and always will be



I've never been the one to say that MJ was hands down the GOAT or anything,
I just say he has the best case for GOAT. No one else essentially has the
combination of winning, stats, accolades, and efficiency to take that crown.
Russell was the greatest winner no doubt and had the accolades, but he didn't have the efficiency nor stats.
Kareem pretty much had the same things MJ had, except he didn't win as much as the best on his team.
Magic had everything as well, just a little less in all the combinations.
Wilt had the stats, accolades and efficiency, but didn't have as much of the winning.
Bird was in the same boat with Magic as well.
Shaq was dominant but didn't have as much winning nor accolades.
Hakeem was just a little lessor in each as well.

ink
08-30-2009, 06:12 PM
that is far from the truth, anyhow Magic used his size to his advantage as well, half a foot taller than most PGs

I was talking about bulk and girth when I was talking about Shaq's size. And Magic was able to use his height advantage as a PG but still able to excel when his height was a DISadvantage playing any of the forward positions.


I put very little stock in the defensive rating stat, as it has Jordan listed 144th, just my opinion.

That rating stat isn't a ranking. It's an estimate of points allowed/scored per 100 possessions.

ink
08-30-2009, 06:21 PM
This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

First of all, the ratings system is badly flawed if they consider anything about All Star games to be meaningful. The fans vote them in, they play Harlem Globetrotters basketball, etc, etc. Similarly I think MVP awards aren't a good measure either because they're popularity contests too. The only big difference is that the judges are being more serious and they're professional basketball writers. But the award is still fairly subjective. Also, why value the regular season MVP award so much more highly than the finals MVP? Finally, I'm not one to count championships for or against a player. The team wins the championship, not the top player(s) on each team. To me, Stockton and Malone (for example) will always be truly great players regardless of the fact that they have no rings. They played the game the way it was meant to be played and they dominated.

It's funny that they set up a value grid in an attempt to be objective about the list, but then ruined it by including subjective measurements like All Star games and MVPs. Just my opinion of course.

JordansBulls
08-30-2009, 06:29 PM
First of all, the ratings system is badly flawed if they consider anything about All Star games to be meaningful. The fans vote them in, they play Harlem Globetrotters basketball, etc, etc. Similarly I think MVP awards aren't a good measure either because they're popularity contests too. The only big difference is that the judges are being more serious and they're professional basketball writers. But the award is still fairly subjective. Finally, I'm not one to count championships for or against a player. To me, Stockton and Malone (for example) will always be truly great players regardless of the fact that they have no rings. They played the game the way it was meant to be played and they dominated.

It's funny that they set up a value grid in an attempt to be objective about the list, but then ruined it by including subjective measurements like All Star games and MVPs. Just my opinion of course.

What if we use Top 3 MVP finishes? The list looks like this

Jordan - 10 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1987-1993, 1996-1998)

Magic - 9 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1983-1991)

Bird - 8 consecutive top 3 MVP finishes (1981-1988)

It does not have to be consecutive, but for these three guys it turns out to be all of their top 3 finishes are consecutive.

Kareem - 9
Russell - 9
Wilt - 7

Malone, Oscar, Pettit, Shaq, Duncan, West - 5


I don't think those guys are just popular, they are just the best in the business.


Here are the MVP award shares as well

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827



http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Larry Bird* 1.0000
6. Magic Johnson* 1.0000




height (in inches)
last season indicator (1 if 1959-60 or before, 0 otherwise)
NBA points per game
NBA rebounds per game
NBA assists per game
NBA All-Star game selections
NBA MVP award shares
NBA championships won


height -0.20518
last season indicator 4.21609
NBA points per game 0.45098
NBA rebounds per game 0.37523
NBA assists per game 0.39329
NBA All-Star game selections 0.48684
NBA MVP award shares 3.18416
NBA championships won 1.03335

Bruno
08-30-2009, 06:52 PM
Wilt at number two is ridiculous.

ChiSox219
08-30-2009, 06:57 PM
I was talking about bulk and girth when I was talking about Shaq's size. And Magic was able to use his height advantage as a PG but still able to excel when his height was a DISadvantage playing any of the forward positions.

Most forwards are about 6'8, 6'9 not really a disadvantage there. Shaq had bulk, but so does Eddy Curry, how come he is not nearly as successful? It's because Shaq had great athleticism for a center combined with great post moves. I've heard this argument against Shaq before but it really is disrespectful to him. He played in that run n gun Phoenix offense and still made the All-nba team...at age 36!




That rating stat isn't a ranking. It's an estimate of points allowed/scored per 100 possessions.

I know that, and Michael Jordan is 144th all time in career defense rating: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

ink
08-30-2009, 07:05 PM
Most forwards are about 6'8, 6'9 not really a disadvantage there. Shaq had bulk, but so does Eddy Curry, how come he is not nearly as successful? It's because Shaq had great athleticism for a center combined with great post moves. I've heard this argument against Shaq before but it really is disrespectful to him. He played in that run n gun Phoenix offense and still made the All-nba team...at age 36!

Like I said, it's my opinion. I don't take this GOAT stuff very seriously. I have my preferences and I value different things than you might. That's really all that matters to me: how I enjoy the game. I've heard the "Shaq is athletic for his size" argument before too and I can accept that. It's clear that he is a phenom in that way.

Problem is, when I think of Shaq I think of a sport ruined by intentional fouling and missed FTs too. I can't stand that kind of basketball. Blame it on the coaches that were trying to beat the Lakers early this decade if you like, but to me Shaq ultimately means dull, slow, plodding games where he shows how glaringly incomplete his skill set is.

ChiSox219
08-30-2009, 07:10 PM
Like I said, it's my opinion. I don't take this GOAT stuff very seriously. I have my preferences and I value different things than you might. That's really all that matters to me: how I enjoy the game. I've heard the "Shaq is athletic for his size" argument before too and I can accept that. It's clear that he is a phenom in that way.

Problem is, when I think of Shaq I think of a sport ruined by intentional fouling and missed FTs too. I can't stand that kind of basketball. Blame it on the coaches that were trying to beat the Lakers early this decade if you like, but to me Shaq ultimately means dull, slow, plodding games where he shows how glaringly incomplete his skill set is.

I agree, Magic was far more entertaining to watch.

Shaq did/does have some of the sickest post moves, but like you said that's boring to watch.

ink
08-30-2009, 07:13 PM
I agree, Magic was far more entertaining to watch.

Shaq did/does have some of the sickest post moves, but like you said that's boring to watch.

Maybe I'm missing your irony, but those post moves aren't what is boring.

ChiSox219
08-30-2009, 07:17 PM
Maybe I'm missing your irony, but those post moves aren't what is boring.

My bad

but this brings up another point, as the Shaq era is ending, is the hack-a-dwight era starting?

Ebbs
08-31-2009, 06:28 PM
Reggie Miller not even top 50, wow, just shows players on small market teams get no love, I'm pretty sure Knicks fans would put him on here after what he did to them and Spike Lee. Reggies about the only problem I have, and I think Lebron shouldn't be there yet.

Totally agree there too i think hes top 25 but its tough to pick 50 overall time because everyone is so different.

lol nice sig btw