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View Full Version : We need a true numba two



nithanyo
08-28-2009, 11:43 AM
For next season our biggest concern is a #2 starter. Not from within the organization but from elsewhere. If the top 2 in the rotation are set the next three will fall into place. Romero is good and maybe in the future a #2 starter but not right now. Right now he can go into the third slot.
As a fan i just dont have the confidence seein Rzep, or Richmond against the yankees or bosox.

what are the free agent options the jays have? And what are some pitchers available in the trade block?

Id like to see arottion along the lines of

Doc
Harden
Romero
Marcum
Cecil/Rzep/Richmond

Zaunnie
08-28-2009, 11:46 AM
AJ Burnett or Ted Lilly

nstojic
08-28-2009, 11:47 AM
marcum can and will be that guy... *crosses fingers*

cynomatic
08-28-2009, 12:04 PM
marcum can and will be that guy... *crosses fingers*

You are right , if healthy Marcum could be that number 2 ...that would be the best case scenario so that the Jays can spend some money on a few bats

Not to mention Jessie Litch could be back next season which gives the Jays a lot of trade options

nstojic
08-28-2009, 12:15 PM
You are right , if healthy Marcum could be that number 2 ...that would be the best case scenario so that the Jays can spend some money on a few bats

Not to mention Jessie Litch could be back next season which gives the Jays a lot of trade options

in a recent interview, litsch said that he's shooting for next years all-star game, as a possible return date...

at least we'll have a top 3 to work with

Doc
Marcum
Romero

after that, the pool is Cecil, Richmond, Rzep, litsch, etc... for two spots... i think a big bat will have to come by trade... cecil and zep, trade the rest...

RaptorizedKevin
08-28-2009, 12:17 PM
agreed

D-Train#35
08-28-2009, 01:32 PM
Whatever happened to Dusty? Is he gonna be okay?

Also on the whatever happened to note, what's happening with Purcey?

blujaysrock
08-28-2009, 01:37 PM
Whatever happened to Dusty? Is he gonna be okay?

Also on the whatever happened to note, what's happening with Purcey?

McGowan may never pitch again from what;s being said he's had quite a few setbacks.

Purcey has had like 75 walks in AAA with an ERA at or around 5 (you'll have too look that up)

Here's the FA's this season


Josh Beckett (30) - $12MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Erik Bedard (31)
Chris Capuano (31)
Doug Davis (34)
Justin Duchscherer (32)
Jon Garland (30) - $10MM mutual option with $2.5MM or $1MM buyout
Rich Harden (28)
Tim Hudson (34) - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
John Lackey (31)
Cliff Lee (31) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Marquis (31)
Kevin Millwood (35) - Rangers can decline $12MM salary for '10 unless he reaches 180 innings in '09
Brett Myers (29)
Carl Pavano (34)
Andy Pettitte (38)
Joel Pineiro (31)
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Brandon Webb (31) - $8.5MM club option with a $500K+ buyout

I wouldn't mind seeing any of them really if it's for the right deal, is it just me though or does anyone else have a feeling JP is going to sign Pavano?

Zaunnie
08-28-2009, 01:45 PM
I'd like Webb if the Dbacks don't pick up his option. Tim Hudson would be another nice option but the Braves will most likely pick up his option. Goddamn options...

madmike77
08-28-2009, 02:17 PM
I think Marcum can do fine as a number two if he's able to pitch like he was in the past. It's really too bad McGowan is likely done because both he and Marcum were borderline 2/3 guys and would have given the Jays a very nice top 3.

As it is now, I'm not sure on Romero. He's looked pretty lousy since the break. Rzep is the only guy who's shown any kind of consistency and he sort of came out of nowhere so I wouldn't know what to expect from him next year either. Litsch should be back.

So maybe something like:

Halladay
Marcum
Romero
Litsch
Rzep

Now they likely won't contend with that rotation, but even with a true number two I don't think they're going to contend next year.

nstojic
08-28-2009, 02:50 PM
Now they likely won't contend with that rotation, but even with a true number two I don't think they're going to contend next year.

they're not NOT contending because of the rotation, so i think that rotation you proposed will be just fine... the offense is what needs addressing.... and litsch has said that he won't be back until around the allstar break... no cecil?

nstojic
08-28-2009, 02:57 PM
I'd like Webb if the Dbacks don't pick up his option. Tim Hudson would be another nice option but the Braves will most likely pick up his option. Goddamn options...

who knew hudson would end up being the best of the oaklands old 'big 3'... so consistent... look at the career #'s: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4084
unfortunately, he's just getting too old.. maybe a one year filler? are injuries starting to finally get him?

webb would be so so so sweet! however, i think the dbacks would exercise the option based on the fact that he's been consistently healthy before this year and there's no reason why he couldn't regain that form...

blujaysrock
08-28-2009, 03:20 PM
who knew hudson would end up being the best of the oaklands old 'big 3'... so consistent... look at the career #'s: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4084
unfortunately, he's just getting too old.. maybe a one year filler? are injuries starting to finally get him?

webb would be so so so sweet! however, i think the dbacks would exercise the option based on the fact that he's been consistently healthy before this year and there's no reason why he couldn't regain that form...

he's only 2 years older than Doc.

nstojic
08-28-2009, 03:43 PM
he's only 2 years older than Doc.

haha but doc is on the cusp of 'those old guys'... therefore, imo hudson is already there... this is his first arm problem, at 34.. doesn't bode well for his late 30's....

T.O.Bombinators
08-28-2009, 05:46 PM
i think we just need to pitch purcey in the majors and see if hes got anthing

wamco
08-28-2009, 06:00 PM
hard to speculate with such uncertainty about payroll

3Blueforyou
08-28-2009, 06:44 PM
McGowan may never pitch again from what;s being said he's had quite a few setbacks.

Purcey has had like 75 walks in AAA with an ERA at or around 5 (you'll have too look that up)

Here's the FA's this season


Josh Beckett (30) - $12MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Erik Bedard (31)
Chris Capuano (31)
Doug Davis (34)
Justin Duchscherer (32)
Jon Garland (30) - $10MM mutual option with $2.5MM or $1MM buyout
Rich Harden (28)
Tim Hudson (34) - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
John Lackey (31)
Cliff Lee (31) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Marquis (31)
Kevin Millwood (35) - Rangers can decline $12MM salary for '10 unless he reaches 180 innings in '09
Brett Myers (29)
Carl Pavano (34)
Andy Pettitte (38)
Joel Pineiro (31)
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Brandon Webb (31) - $8.5MM club option with a $500K+ buyout

I wouldn't mind seeing any of them really if it's for the right deal, is it just me though or does anyone else have a feeling JP is going to sign Pavano?

I would like to see him as a jay, ya i can imagine some of you wont like this and i am not proposing him as our second guy but i like him and i have always liked him. And i dont know what it is about him,ever since i watched him in pittsburgh, i love his change its great and i just think a change of scenery could help him.

nstojic
08-28-2009, 06:54 PM
I would like to see him as a jay, ya i can imagine some of you wont like this and i am not proposing him as our second guy but i like him and i have always liked him. And i dont know what it is about him,ever since i watched him in pittsburgh, i love his change its great and i just think a change of scenery could help him.

for extremely cheap, maybe... otherwise......he he's coming off his second TJ and hasn't pitched since 07...:speechless:

3Blueforyou
08-28-2009, 07:06 PM
for extremely cheap, maybe... otherwise......he he's coming off his second TJ and hasn't pitched since 07...:speechless:

I was reading on rotoworld that he is only making 3.3mill based on inning pitched and apprences. He probably wont make it up to the majors at all this season, but i would be willing to give me a contract like that. Its the good old earn you money.

nstojic
08-28-2009, 07:09 PM
I was reading on rotoworld that he is only making 3.3mill based on inning pitched and apprences. He probably wont make it up to the majors at all this season, but i would be willing to give me a contract like that. Its the good old earn you money.

yeah but since 07, he's pitched 2 innings of pro ball.... and those two were last week for a brewer rookie-ball team....

3Blueforyou
08-28-2009, 07:12 PM
yeah but since 07, he's pitched 2 innings of pro ball.... and those two were last week for a brewer rookie-ball team....

ya i know thats why he will have such a contract he will see if he can make the team out of camp if not he sits in the minors fighting to get up. I dont think he can get much more than that.

ChacinCologne
08-28-2009, 07:17 PM
Sign Harden
Sign Bedard for cheap, he should come cheap coming off surgery.

Trade Romero for a bat, preference being 1B/DH or 3B.
Trade Cecil for a SS.

Let Scutaro walk, take the draft picks.

Halladay
Harden
Bedard
Marcum
Richmond

3Blueforyou
08-28-2009, 07:21 PM
Sign Harden
Sign Bedard for cheap, he should come cheap coming off surgery.

Trade Romero for a bat, preference being 1B/DH or 3B.
Trade Cecil for a SS.

Let Scutaro walk, take the draft picks.

Halladay
Harden
Bedard
Marcum
Richmond

Harden the way he throws might have 3 years to go and bedard is a unknown coming off of surgery. Why would you trade romero???

H-MYK
08-28-2009, 07:51 PM
If Marcum's healthy, he could be our No 2. However, I don't think it should hurt to go after a good arm this off-season. We should try for either Harden or Hudson.

Zaunnie
08-28-2009, 07:52 PM
Scott Kazmir :(

H-MYK
08-28-2009, 07:55 PM
^^ I'm surprised by that deal. With Tampa trying to make a push for the playoffs, you'd think they keep their rotation as it already is.

StealingSigns
08-28-2009, 08:09 PM
For those of you who are touting Marcum as a number 2 for next year, I'm not seeing it. It has been so long since he has pitched, I forget what he looks like.

Wamco is right, this is pretty hard to determine what kind of #2 without knowing what our budget is going to be. I'm more anxious to see who they will be hiring as the new president.

nstojic
08-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Sign Harden
Sign Bedard for cheap, he should come cheap coming off surgery.

Trade Romero for a bat, preference being 1B/DH or 3B.
Trade Cecil for a SS.

Let Scutaro walk, take the draft picks.

Halladay
Harden
Bedard
Marcum
Richmond

who pitches the 15 starts a season that those two would miss... each?

nithanyo
08-28-2009, 11:16 PM
who pitches the 15 starts a season that those two would miss... each?

Injuries are a part of the game. To not sign guys just cus of the 'possibility' of injury takes you out of the market for half of the starters out there.

I read somewhere that most people who get TJ surgery once never need it again, while something close to 50% of pitchers will need TJ surgery sometimes in their career.

I dont want the GM(hopefully not JP) to go out and blindly sign players. But if the player seems like they can help the team with minimal injury then go for it. Teams have scouts and tests for a reason

nstojic
08-28-2009, 11:19 PM
Injuries are a part of the game. To not sign guys just cus of the 'possibility' of injury takes you out of the market for half of the starters out there.

I read somewhere that most people who get TJ surgery once never need it again, while something close to 50% of pitchers will need TJ surgery sometimes in their career.

I dont want the GM(hopefully not JP) to go out and blindly sign players. But if the player seems like they can help the team with minimal injury then go for it. Teams have scouts and tests for a reason

these aren't 'minimal injury' guys...

StealingSigns
08-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Both of these guys are capable of delivering unbelievable seasons.

Both of these guys, history dictates, will not deliver unbelievable seasons because of injury.

blujaysrock
08-29-2009, 08:41 AM
Sign Harden
Sign Bedard for cheap, he should come cheap coming off surgery.

Trade Romero for a bat, preference being 1B/DH or 3B.
Trade Cecil for a SS.

Let Scutaro walk, take the draft picks.

Halladay
Harden
Bedard
Marcum
Richmond

I'd rather have Romero than Rich Herden right now, why wouldn't we keep Romero and sign a bat?

j-mart
08-29-2009, 09:08 AM
I wouldn't touch Bedard with all of the injury problems that he's had. Lackey will be way out of the Jays price range. I don't see the Jays chasing a starting pitcher through free agency but maybe through a trade. I still believe a potent bat is a bigger need. We need to upgrade at 3B and see what happens with Scutaro and Barajas as free agents. If Lind moves to DH, there's an opportunity to get an outfielder with pop (Bay?).

deuces
08-29-2009, 11:32 AM
brad mills will be our 2

laker18
08-29-2009, 12:27 PM
toronto needs to first resign Beeston then fire JP. After thats done then go out and get a number 2 starter. I am a fan of lackey but he is going ot want a contract similar to AJ's new one with the yankees. I would like to see toronto put the money into a contract for a pitcher like lackey but its unlikely. Another option could be Rich Harden only because of his age(28). The only way i would like seeing him in toronto is if he was on a performance based contract with a base salary around 5 million and its a 2 year deal with a team option for a 3rd year. the same goes for a bedard contract except he would want more money and possibly a longer contract.

randomness
08-29-2009, 12:30 PM
Starters:

Roy Halladay
Shawn Marcum
Ricky Romero
Jesse Litsch
Brett Cecil

Bullpen:

Jason Frasor
Brian Tallet
Brandon League
Scott Downs
Scott Richmond

Closer: Dustin McGowan (if he can come back) or Marc Rzepczkinski

Zaunnie
08-29-2009, 01:24 PM
^^ I'm surprised by that deal. With Tampa trying to make a push for the playoffs, you'd think they keep their rotation as it already is.

Still, if we had gotten Kazmir, it'd be basically replacing Rios with Kazmir. And that sounds awesome.

Gibby
08-30-2009, 01:32 AM
i like john lackey out of all the possibilities. but i think jays need a 3B and a DH (dont trust Ruiz) . atleast One of them needs to be lefthanded hitter. also resign scoots and hot rod

Zaunnie
08-30-2009, 11:35 AM
i like john lackey out of all the possibilities. but i think jays need a 3B and a DH (dont trust Ruiz) . atleast One of them needs to be lefthanded hitter. also resign scoots and hot rod

Left handed DH = Delgado or Laroche if the Braves don't resign Laroche

T.O. Fan
08-30-2009, 11:44 AM
^^ I'm surprised by that deal. With Tampa trying to make a push for the playoffs, you'd think they keep their rotation as it already is.

Overall this season he hasn't pitched as well as in the past. He's set to make big $$$ and the Rays have a guy named Wade Davis already to take his place.

I think it was a great move for the Rays. They picked up 2 or 3 (PTBNL) good prospects, made room for Davis (who is a top prospect) and saved a bunch of $$$$.

T.O. Fan
08-30-2009, 11:46 AM
I'm not willing to right off McGowan yet, but I'm also not willing to count on him either.

Apparantly there is talk that part of the reason he's having trouble getting back healthy is his diabetes.

I guess we'll all know more come spring training 2010.

nithanyo
08-30-2009, 05:44 PM
Starters:

Roy Halladay
Shawn Marcum
Ricky Romero
Jesse Litsch
Brett Cecil

Bullpen:

Jason Frasor
Brian Tallet
Brandon League
Scott Downs
Scott Richmond

Closer: Dustin McGowan (if he can come back) or Marc Rzepczkinski

if he is healthy enough to pitch why would we want him in the pen and as a closer where he has no experience? I also heard that being a reliever is alot more strain on the arm since you are almost never prepared until last minute. But lets all be realistic. To put Mcgowan into any future plans is like building a team around Guilmero Quiroz. It just aint gonna happen

StealingSigns
08-30-2009, 06:17 PM
How about Paul Byrd?? He shut the Jays out today, not that shutting the Jays out these days is an awesome feat.

nithanyo
08-30-2009, 07:06 PM
How about Paul Byrd?? He shut the Jays out today, not that shutting the Jays out these days is an awesome feat.

He could round out a rotation but not a number two.

Maybe a rotation like

Halladay
Harden/Bedard
Marcum
Romero
Byrd(1 or 2 year contract)

Starting pitching depth
Cecil, Mills, Richmond, Litsch, Rzep, plus whatever we have in that order

As we found out this year you can never have enough pitching. We had the best pitching team baseball last year. Where are we now? Pitching wins ballgames guys. If we can get a really good starter or two we become immediate contenders. Even if we add Manny Ramirez to our lineup teams would not fear us, like they would fear us if we had a possible ace behind Doc and our young starting pitchers behind them

I remember a couple years back when Joe Torre said that the last team he would want to play in the playoffs is the Jays, only cus of our starters back then

MLBJB
08-30-2009, 07:28 PM
Put Delgado out of your minds.

He is not recovering well from hip surgery.

StealingSigns
08-30-2009, 07:36 PM
He could round out a rotation but not a number two.

Maybe a rotation like

Halladay
Harden/Bedard
Marcum
Romero
Byrd(1 or 2 year contract)

Starting pitching depth
Cecil, Mills, Richmond, Litsch, Rzep, plus whatever we have in that order

As we found out this year you can never have enough pitching. We had the best pitching team baseball last year. Where are we now? Pitching wins ballgames guys. If we can get a really good starter or two we become immediate contenders. Even if we add Manny Ramirez to our lineup teams would not fear us, like they would fear us if we had a possible ace behind Doc and our young starting pitchers behind them

I remember a couple years back when Joe Torre said that the last team he would want to play in the playoffs is the Jays, only cus of our starters back then

My how time flies! That quote was 11 years ago. Joe Torre was asked during a CBC Blue Jays telecast if he would rather face the Jays in the playoffs, and he was quite emphatic that Toronto's starting pitching would be tough to play against.

1998 Toronto Blue Jays:

Roger Clemens
Woody Williams
Pat Hentgen
Chris Carpenter
Juan Guzman
Kelvim Ecobar

...and a sensational couple of starts from rookie Roy Halladay in September.

Toronto had made a late charge in the season, and finished 4 games behind Boston for the wild-card spot. The Yankees had an unbelievable campaign, finishing 114-48, 22 games ahead of the second place Red Sox.

nithanyo
08-30-2009, 07:47 PM
My how time flies! That quote was 11 years ago. Joe Torre was asked during a CBC Blue Jays telecast if he would rather face the Jays in the playoffs, and he was quite emphatic that Toronto's starting pitching would be tough to play against.

1998 Toronto Blue Jays:

Roger Clemens
Woody Williams
Pat Hentgen
Chris Carpenter
Juan Guzman
Kelvim Ecobar

...and a sensational couple of starts from rookie Roy Halladay in September.

Toronto had made a late charge in the season, and finished 4 games behind Boston for the wild-card spot. The Yankees had an unbelievable campaign, finishing 114-48, 22 games ahead of the second place Red Sox.

No my friend he made those comments about Doc, AJ, and Lilly

StealingSigns
08-30-2009, 08:29 PM
He must have done it twice then. I remember watching that game at work (in '98) and he made those comments during the pregame show.