PDA

View Full Version : Clean up Hitter



lukeem21
08-23-2009, 03:10 PM
I personally think the Jays biggest need would be a cleanup hitter someone in the middle who strikes fear into the pitchers when he is undeck, forcing more fastballs to the #3 hitter.. i cant think of a contender without one and we - have not have had one in a long time

there are not a lot of options out there but what would you guys think about Vlad Guerrero? How much would he go for? Would he be enough to bolster this offense into a contender? Is he over the Hill?

blujaysrock
08-23-2009, 03:13 PM
No thanks to Vlad, maybe a few years ago yes, but not now, plus I don't really think we'd have room for him.

lukeem21
08-23-2009, 03:22 PM
No thanks to Vlad, maybe a few years ago yes, but not now, plus I don't really think we'd have room for him.

love the sig...

room financially?

He's been hurt this year but still on pace for 30hrs over 600 abs and a .300 avg like always

lukeem21
08-23-2009, 03:23 PM
I think now that he is DHing more and getting up their in age we might be able to get him relatively cheap when he can still obviously hit

2009mvp
08-23-2009, 03:29 PM
love the sig...

room financially?

He's been hurt this year but still on pace for 30hrs over 600 abs and a .300 avg like always

How exactly is he on pace for 600 ABs? Or 30 homers for that matter.

boilerguy2412
08-23-2009, 04:08 PM
Vlad is pretty much done IMO he might have a year or 2 in him but i woudln't want to pay him what he would be looking for. I want to see what Ruiz can do until the end of the season maybe this guy has put it together and can be the type of players we need next year at the DH spot. I am not saying bat him forth i just want to see what he does. I think we already have an excellent guy to bat 4th Hill. I would take those #'s in the 4 hole any day. Who knows what his #'s would have been if he batted 4th all year. I would like to see the Jays spend money on a good first basemen which will prolly come via trade.

lukeem21
08-23-2009, 04:30 PM
How exactly is he on pace for 600 ABs? Or 30 homers for that matter.

600 ABs is a full season

at the pace of HRs per ABs he is doing he would have close to 30HRs over a full season

he is not on pace to get either this season


Vlad is pretty much done IMO he might have a year or 2 in him but i woudln't want to pay him what he would be looking for. I want to see what Ruiz can do until the end of the season maybe this guy has put it together and can be the type of players we need next year at the DH spot. I am not saying bat him forth i just want to see what he does. I think we already have an excellent guy to bat 4th Hill. I would take those #'s in the 4 hole any day. Who knows what his #'s would have been if he batted 4th all year. I would like to see the Jays spend money on a good first basemen which will prolly come via trade.

a year or two is all i would expect out of him - and what do you believe he would be looking for?


I'm all for giving Ruiz a chance the rest of the year to see if he can be a cheap DH but he is not going to suddenly be a clean up hitter for a contender (which you admitt)

As for Hill batting cleanup, that is a possibility... IMO ideally he would be batting third, TBA cleanup hitter batting 4th, Lind batting 5th.... I'd like to have scutaro batting second (he's really good at getting on thus serves as a second leadoff hitter, but also really good at moving the runner over and someone you dont mind seeing lay down a bunt) and if we could get a speedster that gets on lots to lead off that would be perfect! I've got the feeling though we'll get none of those things and our best offseason move will be getting rid of JP

TyA
08-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Anyone think Carlos Delgado would be a good option this offseason. I know he has been injured this year, but him and Adam Lind could platoon the 1B/DH role on the team next year. In 159 games last year he hit 271 with 38 homeruns. He is a free agent, and just maybe he would want to come finish his career where he started it.

Orlando Hudson is another player that really intrests me. I know he isnt a power hitter, but he is a free agent and I think he is a great player to bring back in. He is hitting 291 this year in 119 games. He can slid back into 2b moving Hill to SS, and he can also add a good bat to the bottom or even the top of the order.

It would also be awesome too see the Jays sign Jason Bay. I know its a long shot to sign him, but these 3 hitters could make a difference in the lineup.

Rogi10
08-23-2009, 05:11 PM
600 ABs is a full season

at the pace of HRs per ABs he is doing he would have close to 30HRs over a full season

he is not on pace to get either this season



a year or two is all i would expect out of him - and what do you believe he would be looking for?


I'm all for giving Ruiz a chance the rest of the year to see if he can be a cheap DH but he is not going to suddenly be a clean up hitter for a contender (which you admitt)

As for Hill batting cleanup, that is a possibility... IMO ideally he would be batting third, TBA cleanup hitter batting 4th, Lind batting 5th.... I'd like to have scutaro batting second (he's really good at getting on thus serves as a second leadoff hitter, but also really good at moving the runner over and someone you dont mind seeing lay down a bunt) and if we could get a speedster that gets on lots to lead off that would be perfect! I've got the feeling though we'll get none of those things and our best offseason move will be getting rid of JP


Hill is not a fit for the 3rd spotm he doesn't walk nearly enough and his career OBP isn't 3rd spot material.

scottythegreat1
08-23-2009, 05:22 PM
Anyone think Carlos Delgado would be a good option this offseason. I know he has been injured this year, but him and Adam Lind could platoon the 1B/DH role on the team next year. In 159 games last year he hit 271 with 38 homeruns. He is a free agent, and just maybe he would want to come finish his career where he started it.

Orlando Hudson is another player that really intrests me. I know he isnt a power hitter, but he is a free agent and I think he is a great player to bring back in. He is hitting 291 this year in 119 games. He can slid back into 2b moving Hill to SS, and he can also add a good bat to the bottom or even the top of the order.

It would also be awesome too see the Jays sign Jason Bay. I know its a long shot to sign him, but these 3 hitters could make a difference in the lineup.

I have a very strong feeling that there is some resentment towards JP from Carlos Delgado, and therefore wont be signing here.

In all honesty, I wouldnt object to Adam Lind batting cleanup. I am surprised he isnt batting cleanup already. If I were Gaston, I would have this batting order:

Scutaro
Overbay
Hill
Lind
Wells
Ruiz
Snider
Barajas
Encarnation/Bautista

Zaunnie
08-23-2009, 05:49 PM
Adam Dunn

brandonwarne52
08-23-2009, 05:55 PM
Undeck?

3Blueforyou
08-23-2009, 06:24 PM
these kinds of threads sound like the kind that would of been on the leafs forum a couple years ago. " Lets pick up a guy who has like a year or two left pay him alot of money and get nowhere." The core of this team as of now (minus halladay cause i think they will move him and adding who ever from that trade) is a two years away from contending i think so i dont see the point on going after players like this so that we can finish third 7 games out. Make a move on a guy who has expirence in the league but can contribute for years to come ( not sure who is out there).

FlakeyFool
08-23-2009, 06:25 PM
I'm not sure whos more clueless, blue jay fans or JP himself

I thought we were rebuilding, and not going out overpaying for injury prone players?

2009mvp
08-23-2009, 07:23 PM
600 ABs is a full season

at the pace of HRs per ABs he is doing he would have close to 30HRs over a full season

he is not on pace to get either this season



a year or two is all i would expect out of him - and what do you believe he would be looking for?


I'm all for giving Ruiz a chance the rest of the year to see if he can be a cheap DH but he is not going to suddenly be a clean up hitter for a contender (which you admitt)

As for Hill batting cleanup, that is a possibility... IMO ideally he would be batting third, TBA cleanup hitter batting 4th, Lind batting 5th.... I'd like to have scutaro batting second (he's really good at getting on thus serves as a second leadoff hitter, but also really good at moving the runner over and someone you dont mind seeing lay down a bunt) and if we could get a speedster that gets on lots to lead off that would be perfect! I've got the feeling though we'll get none of those things and our best offseason move will be getting rid of JP

Whups, I don't know why I completely misinterpreted that. Still, his HR/FB rates are down, his ISO is at a career low. He hasn't hit thirty the past two seasons and won't this year. Granted, it's a small sample size this season, but over the past two years basically everything has been trending downwards. No thanks.

lukeem21
08-23-2009, 09:09 PM
Hill is not a fit for the 3rd spotm he doesn't walk nearly enough and his career OBP isn't 3rd spot material.

OBP is more important for 1 or 2 spot, whereas the 3 and 4 guys are supposed to be the guys to cash them in... so he'd be better suited for 3 than 2 IMO


I'm not sure whos more clueless, blue jay fans or JP himself

I thought we were rebuilding, and not going out overpaying for injury prone players?

wow you're an ***

a big part of my post was asking how much you guys think he would cost... then you assume i'm all for overpaying for him? The point of this was that he could be someone who's price is down but risk reward scenario be really high..... he could potentially fill that role for a couple years and potentially help us make a playoff push... if we sign him for cheap he is not costing us our prospects or taking away from rebuilding projects.... it does give us a chance to keep halladay though (which would be very nice having an Ace while our young pitchers start to come into their prime) signing him to a one or two year deal does nothing to stop us from rebuilding

but fine just call me a dumbass

FlakeyFool
08-23-2009, 09:28 PM
OBP is more important for 1 or 2 spot, whereas the 3 and 4 guys are supposed to be the guys to cash them in... so he'd be better suited for 3 than 2 IMO



wow you're an ***

a big part of my post was asking how much you guys think he would cost... then you assume i'm all for overpaying for him? The point of this was that he could be someone who's price is down but risk reward scenario be really high..... he could potentially fill that role for a couple years and potentially help us make a playoff push... if we sign him for cheap he is not costing us our prospects or taking away from rebuilding projects.... it does give us a chance to keep halladay though (which would be very nice having an Ace while our young pitchers start to come into their prime) signing him to a one or two year deal does nothing to stop us from rebuilding

but fine just call me a dumbass

you honestly think Toronto is a desirable place for Vlad? A team that won't make the playoffs next year, or the year after? An organization that is really messed up?

Of course the blue jays are going to have to overpay, your just being dumb if you don't think so.

You really think Halladay would stay just because of Vlad? LoL

donatolla
08-23-2009, 09:34 PM
a big part of my post was asking how much you guys think he would cost... then you assume i'm all for overpaying for him?

I think the key is that any Vlad kind of signing would be the wrong one (Delgado included). Vlad will NOT come cheap, and even if he does in comparison to the rest of his career, it will be more than what this team is likely to spend.

I think that we already have the players who could bat clean-up. I agree that Lind may fit this bill next year. Something that Cito has said as well. That said, I don't think we are that far away from seeing Snider hold onto the cleanup spot.

Twitchy
08-23-2009, 10:10 PM
What the Jays need is a DH, 3B, C, additional SP who can reliably pitch in the upper part of the rotation and throw 200+ innings (something none of our potential starters save for Halladay have ever done) and another reliable reliever.

Or they could just rebuild because the odds of them adding 5 guys like that are slim to none.

2009mvp
08-24-2009, 12:32 AM
What the Jays need is a DH, 3B, C, additional SP who can reliably pitch in the upper part of the rotation and throw 200+ innings (something none of our potential starters save for Halladay have ever done) and another reliable reliever.

Or they could just rebuild because the odds of them adding 5 guys like that are slim to none.

Bingo. Throw all the cash you want at the likes of Bay and Figgins but it'll more than likely ensure another season of battling for third place. This team isn't as close as people seem to think it is, especially after dealing Rolen and dumping Rios.

Gibby
08-24-2009, 03:35 AM
you honestly think Toronto is a desirable place for Vlad? A team that won't make the playoffs next year, or the year after? An organization that is really messed up?

Of course the blue jays are going to have to overpay, your just being dumb if you don't think so.

You really think Halladay would stay just because of Vlad? LoL

why are you assuming jays would have to overpay? This offseason is supposed to buyers market. There were alot of bargains last year. For example Bobby Abreu was one.

Even Adam Dunn at 10 Mill a year can be considered a bargain. he went to the nationals and they were in worse shape than the jays.

are you 100% this team is rebuilding. Until they trade Doc, i am not convinced they are rebuilding.

Even if they are rebuilding, why can't they make a FA signing. There is nothing wrong with signing a veteran FA to compliment a young players. I don't really like signing someone who block a player like snider's developement but they are others areas jays need help. For example their seems to be no one at SS or 3B position who seem to close to ready.

Gibby
08-24-2009, 03:38 AM
Bingo. Throw all the cash you want at the likes of Bay and Figgins but it'll more than likely ensure another season of battling for third place. This team isn't as close as people seem to think it is, especially after dealing Rolen and dumping Rios.

i agree with your point. i dont want jays going after a player like Bay for 15+ mil. i dont mind them signing some second tier free agents who might come cheap because of the market.

lukeem21
08-24-2009, 09:37 AM
you honestly think Toronto is a desirable place for Vlad? A team that won't make the playoffs next year, or the year after? An organization that is really messed up?

Of course the blue jays are going to have to overpay, your just being dumb if you don't think so.

You really think Halladay would stay just because of Vlad? LoL

your pretty stupid for someone that thinks he can call other people stupid.... you're still saying that the jays will have to overpay to get him... overpay what.... i have openly asked what he will be worth this offseason and that price has not been established but you're already assuming that we will have to overpay this undetermined amount

yes i think halladay will stay if we sign Vlad... Halladay will say wow we signed vlad thats cool i am going to stay now... stopping be so moronic and then calling me dumb

halladay will stay if we can win.... vlad might bridge the gap between players like lind and snider being able to bat cleanup



i believe we will not have enought money to answer all of our teams needs with major vets thus we will need some young guys to stand up (i think we have the young pitchers to fill the pitching staff).... half the point of this thread was to ask how much Vlad will go for then from there to determine if it is something worth thinking about

wamco
08-24-2009, 10:09 AM
your pretty stupid


well done

wamco
08-24-2009, 10:15 AM
vlad is done

last 3 year's ops'

950
886
832

injuries adding up for this guy. I wouldn't pay more than 6M per year for him. (if last year's off season market holds)

CaptainBolduke
08-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Does anyone buy JP's and Beeston's promise of contending? We have to remember that the Yanks, Boston, and Tampa Bay will not be worse next season. Odds are that Boston will actually try to improve considering just how good the Yanks will be over the next few seasons. The Rays players are still young enough to keep them all on that team. So do we really have a chance to compete in 2010? Can we pass at least 2 of those 3 teams next season?

http://www.jhbluejaysblog.blogspot.com/


We also need to sign a shortstop and a catcher just to feild a full team.

http://www.jhbluejaysblog.blogspot.com/

FlakeyFool
08-24-2009, 01:36 PM
your pretty stupid for someone that thinks he can call other people stupid.... you're still saying that the jays will have to overpay to get him... overpay what.... i have openly asked what he will be worth this offseason and that price has not been established but you're already assuming that we will have to overpay this undetermined amount

yes i think halladay will stay if we sign Vlad... Halladay will say wow we signed vlad thats cool i am going to stay now... stopping be so moronic and then calling me dumb

halladay will stay if we can win.... vlad might bridge the gap between players like lind and snider being able to bat cleanup



i believe we will not have enought money to answer all of our teams needs with major vets thus we will need some young guys to stand up (i think we have the young pitchers to fill the pitching staff).... half the point of this thread was to ask how much Vlad will go for then from there to determine if it is something worth thinking about

ahaha

I wanna know what world this kid lives in. Must be the same world JP lives in.

You really don't know much, you and JP should get married.

FlakeyFool
08-24-2009, 01:38 PM
I guess the 21 in your name is your IQ level?

fatkev78
08-24-2009, 02:55 PM
Bingo. Throw all the cash you want at the likes of Bay and Figgins but it'll more than likely ensure another season of battling for third place. This team isn't as close as people seem to think it is, especially after dealing Rolen and dumping Rios.

??? Getting Bay & Figgins will ensure 3rd place? "Especially after dealing Rolen" - who would be replaced by Figgins & "dumping Rios" who would be replaced by Bay. Throw Snider into the mix and hopefully a respectable season from Wells and who knows? Twitchy mentioned we need 5 FA's, well I say if we got Bay & Figgins we could easily run with Chavez as the C and hopefully resign Scutaro on the fairly cheap. As for needing another SP - I think that can be filled internally. I think this team isn't as far away as some people think it is.

Jamiecballer
08-24-2009, 03:10 PM
Adam Dunn

Agreed

D-Train#35
08-24-2009, 03:57 PM
I really think Snider will pull a Lind next year and prove to be an extremely valuable every day player. Between Hill, Lind and Snider, we have plenty of guys who can bat in the heart of the order. That is leaving it to chance though that Snider really starts to produce.

Twitchy
08-24-2009, 05:55 PM
??? Getting Bay & Figgins will ensure 3rd place? "Especially after dealing Rolen" - who would be replaced by Figgins & "dumping Rios" who would be replaced by Bay. Throw Snider into the mix and hopefully a respectable season from Wells and who knows?

If this team wants to make the playoffs they can't just "hope" that Wells rebounds, Snider develops into a 900 OPS guy at age 22, that Figgins repeats his stellar season and that Bay has an 850-900 OPS season. And that's asking for guys like Frasor, Hill, Lind, Romero, Zep, Cecil, Richmond to all either equal or outperform what they're currently doing.

At best Bay and Figgins do well and Snider has a respectable low 800 OPS season. I doubt Hill hits 30+ HR's again, and while Lind should be ok I'm expecting some regression from every pitcher not named "Roy".


Twitchy mentioned we need 5 FA's, well I say if we got Bay & Figgins we could easily run with Chavez as the C and hopefully resign Scutaro on the fairly cheap. As for needing another SP - I think that can be filled internally. I think this team isn't as far away as some people think it is.

I mentioned we needed to add 5 above average players at those specific positions. Not just filling them with guys like Chavez. If the Jays want to win, not just battle for third, they need a legitimate upgrade at catcher, not some 37 year old career minor leaguer.

Adding a SP is absolutely essential for competing (not that I think we should). Doc is Doc, but beyond that, you've got Romero who's pitching like a 4.50 ERA guy per FIP. You've got 2 complete wild cards in Zep and Cecil, who will regress once the league sees them more. You've got Richmond who's a typical 5, and pretty much no depth behind them. Oh, and Marcum is coming off TJ. Maybe he'll pitch better than BJ did in the beginning, but relying on him is totally unrealistic.

So let's say someone gets injured - and someone wil get injured - who's filling in? Tallet? Purcey? Robert Ray? Those aren't guys who should be starting for a contending team. Which means to prevent them from being the depth guys (and forcing Zep or Cecil to be the "depth, AAA guy"), you need to add a legit #2 SP. Picture the rotation with a guy like Burnett vs how it is now.

Doc
AJ
Marcum
Romero
Richmond

Vs

Doc
Marcum
Romero
Richmond
Zep

The first rotation actually could compete for a playoff spot. The second one is looking at a fourth place finish.

And for the record, yes, I Know AJ is gone, but when I say AJ the idea I'm getting at is a legitimate #2 guy in the rotation.

2009mvp
08-24-2009, 06:01 PM
It's amazing how quickly people (including myself) are to take a steaming dump on other team's players who are outperforming their peripherals but because we watch a guy like Romero every fifth day we like to believe he's a legit number two in the rotation regardless of the numbers. I hate to say it even though I'm not the first, Romero is at best the third best starter in a contender's rotation, but more than likely the fourth or possibly fifth.

Twitchy
08-24-2009, 06:05 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think in a couple of years Romero will get the BB down a little bit, but right now and for the next year I don't think he's better than a #3/4 type guy on a contending team. The talent's there to be more though, but he's not pitching like a stud.

He was a lot better earlier on (peripheral wise) which is why I think a lot of people thought he was the #2 guy. But he's taken a step back since his injury.

2009mvp
08-24-2009, 06:06 PM
??? Getting Bay & Figgins will ensure 3rd place? "Especially after dealing Rolen" - who would be replaced by Figgins & "dumping Rios" who would be replaced by Bay. Throw Snider into the mix and hopefully a respectable season from Wells and who knows? Twitchy mentioned we need 5 FA's, well I say if we got Bay & Figgins we could easily run with Chavez as the C and hopefully resign Scutaro on the fairly cheap. As for needing another SP - I think that can be filled internally. I think this team isn't as far away as some people think it is.

You're not only hoping for Wells, you're hoping for Figgins to repeat his career year and that Bay's atrocious defense doesn't completely kill you now that he wouldn't be playing a short LF 81 games a year.

lukeem21
08-24-2009, 07:24 PM
ahaha

I wanna know what world this kid lives in. Must be the same world JP lives in.

You really don't know much, you and JP should get married.



I guess the 21 in your name is your IQ level?

why bother posting if you're not going to contribute anything... maybe cause you have nothing worth posting, but thanks for your input anyway

fatkev78
08-24-2009, 07:55 PM
If this team wants to make the playoffs they can't just "hope" that Wells rebounds, Snider develops into a 900 OPS guy at age 22, that Figgins repeats his stellar season and that Bay has an 850-900 OPS season. And that's asking for guys like Frasor, Hill, Lind, Romero, Zep, Cecil, Richmond to all either equal or outperform what they're currently doing.

At best Bay and Figgins do well and Snider has a respectable low 800 OPS season. I doubt Hill hits 30+ HR's again, and while Lind should be ok I'm expecting some regression from every pitcher not named "Roy".



I mentioned we needed to add 5 above average players at those specific positions. Not just filling them with guys like Chavez. If the Jays want to win, not just battle for third, they need a legitimate upgrade at catcher, not some 37 year old career minor leaguer.

Adding a SP is absolutely essential for competing (not that I think we should). Doc is Doc, but beyond that, you've got Romero who's pitching like a 4.50 ERA guy per FIP. You've got 2 complete wild cards in Zep and Cecil, who will regress once the league sees them more. You've got Richmond who's a typical 5, and pretty much no depth behind them. Oh, and Marcum is coming off TJ. Maybe he'll pitch better than BJ did in the beginning, but relying on him is totally unrealistic.

So let's say someone gets injured - and someone wil get injured - who's filling in? Tallet? Purcey? Robert Ray? Those aren't guys who should be starting for a contending team. Which means to prevent them from being the depth guys (and forcing Zep or Cecil to be the "depth, AAA guy"), you need to add a legit #2 SP. Picture the rotation with a guy like Burnett vs how it is now.

Doc
AJ
Marcum
Romero
Richmond

Vs

Doc
Marcum
Romero
Richmond
Zep

The first rotation actually could compete for a playoff spot. The second one is looking at a fourth place finish.

And for the record, yes, I Know AJ is gone, but when I say AJ the idea I'm getting at is a legitimate #2 guy in the rotation.


You're not only hoping for Wells, you're hoping for Figgins to repeat his career year and that Bay's atrocious defense doesn't completely kill you now that he wouldn't be playing a short LF 81 games a year.

Guys, what else can you do but hope Wells turns it around? He's not going anywhere and he'll be in the lineup every day. You are both right, if the core of our team regresses and if Bay & Figgins have bad years it will be the wrong moves, but honestly WTF? Why the pessimism? I honestly believe if I thought that negatively I wouldn't even watch the Jays - if you think everything the Jays touch is going to turn to crap how the heck do you expect them to compete with NYY, BOS & TB?
Sometimes I think being an optimist on this site is frowned upon. :confused:

FlakeyFool
08-24-2009, 09:48 PM
why bother posting if you're not going to contribute anything... maybe cause you have nothing worth posting, but thanks for your input anyway

Thanks for making an utterly useless thread

And yeah I did contribute to the thread, by making out how clueless you are about the blue jays.

wamco
08-24-2009, 10:22 PM
twitchy, agreed with all in that post except for cecil regressing.

Twitchy
08-24-2009, 11:01 PM
That's probably true. Did get carried away there. I should have said that even next year he won't pass 200 innings. He's probably capped this year at 140 or so.

lukeem21
08-25-2009, 07:26 PM
Thanks for making an utterly useless thread

And yeah I did contribute to the thread, by making out how clueless you are about the blue jays.

if this is a useless thread than everything in PSD is useless you tool... the thread was about shooting an idea out there and finding out what people thought but mostly trying to figure out Vlad's price, which no one answered... you just adamantly proclaim that he will be overpaid, whereas the entire time i've been saying that he might be a good low risk high reward option if his play in this contact year has raised too many questions to demand top dollar

and then you cry about how signing someone prevent us from rebuilding.... it's obvious you dont know what you're talking about and you just get off and trying to pick stupid fights and then say "I'm smarter than you" even though you've done nothing but prove you're an immature little ****



what the **** is wrong with the blue jays forum? nowhere else on PSD do i get 5 year old little immature punks trying to start fights about nothing... i know most of you are actual decent people that have intelligent things to say, but a couple of posters that believe their opinion is so high and powerful that no one else has an opinion that matter really brings down the entire standard

heusy_79
08-25-2009, 07:39 PM
Thanks for making an utterly useless thread

And yeah I did contribute to the thread, by making out how clueless you are about the blue jays.

It's a perfectly legit thread, the Jays have lacked a true #4 hitter since Carlos left, with the possible exception of Troy Glaus, who was decent in the role when healthy.

Twitchy
08-25-2009, 07:41 PM
Knock off the insults or I'm locking this thread and everyone involved with the insults is getting banned.

lukeem21
08-25-2009, 07:48 PM
It's a perfectly legit thread, the Jays have lacked a true #4 hitter since Carlos left, with the possible exception of Troy Glaus, who was decent in the role when healthy.

Glaus was a decent attempt at it... just never really panned out

i respect those that think Lind or Hill could fill the void... but IMO Lind would be a great 5 hitter, and a below average cleanup hitter... Hill I believe would be better suited for the 2 or 3 spot

IMO the Jays future would be best suited having something like Hill batting second, Snider third and Lind fifth.... they need a real leadoff hitter and cleanup hitter

H-MYK
08-25-2009, 07:54 PM
Either Lind or Hill.

fatkev78
08-25-2009, 07:54 PM
if this is a useless thread than everything in PSD is useless you tool... the thread was about shooting an idea out there and finding out what people thought but mostly trying to figure out Vlad's price, which no one answered... you just adamantly proclaim that he will be overpaid, whereas the entire time i've been saying that he might be a good low risk high reward option if his play in this contact year has raised too many questions to demand top dollar

and then you cry about how signing someone prevent us from rebuilding.... it's obvious you dont know what you're talking about and you just get off and trying to pick stupid fights and then say "I'm smarter than you" even though you've done nothing but prove you're an immature little ****



what the **** is wrong with the blue jays forum? nowhere else on PSD do i get 5 year old little immature punks trying to start fights about nothing... i know most of you are actual decent people that have intelligent things to say, but a couple of posters that believe their opinion is so high and powerful that no one else has an opinion that matter really brings down the entire standard

Right now, lots. I think the Jays play has everyone a little negative - maybe we all need Willrain back to somehow pull out some cheery stats out of this awful season?. As for Vlad - I have no idea what type of money he would command this offseason -the market is so difficult to predict. But you're right, after seeing what Abreu went for this past off-season, who knows?

heusy_79
08-25-2009, 07:57 PM
^ Lind is probably the closest thing we have to a cleanup hitter at this point, Hill is more of a 2-3 kinda guy. Snider is our cleanup hitter of the future IMO, but with our current pieces I would like to try this next season:

1)SS Scutaro- If he is back, he is the undisputed leadoff guy, If not Wells should be tried here
2)CF Wells- I think he'll be better next year but is no longer a "heart of the order" type of guy
3)2B Hill- Might not match numbers from this year but has become a dangerous bat

4)LF Lind- Produces runs, and collects a boatload of extra base hits

5)RF Snider- Looking like he will breakout next year

6)DH Ruiz- Some call it a fluke but this guy can hit the ball

7)1B Overbay- Overrated by some, underrated by many, mediocre production at 1B but still a decent bat
8)3B Encarnacion- I still haven't formed my complete opinion on this guy

9)C Chavez- I'd welcome back Barajas on a reasonable deal, but Chavez is a decent transition to Arencibia in 2011.

lukeem21
08-25-2009, 08:07 PM
^ Lind is probably the closest thing we have to a cleanup hitter at this point, Hill is more of a 2-3 kinda guy. Snider is our cleanup hitter of the future IMO, but with our current pieces I would like to try this next season:

1)SS Scutaro- If he is back, he is the undisputed leadoff guy, If not Wells should be tried here
2)CF Wells- I think he'll be better next year but is no longer a "heart of the order" type of guy
3)2B Hill- Might not match numbers from this year but has become a dangerous bat

4)LF Lind- Produces runs, and collects a boatload of extra base hits

5)RF Snider- Looking like he will breakout next year

6)DH Ruiz- Some call it a fluke but this guy can hit the ball

7)1B Overbay- Overrated by some, underrated by many, mediocre production at 1B but still a decent bat
8)3B Encarnacion- I still haven't formed my complete opinion on this guy

9)C Chavez- I'd welcome back Barajas on a reasonable deal, but Chavez is a decent transition to Arencibia in 2011.

wow wells at 2... you've got balls haha it could actually work out amazingly... having someone like Hill behind him might help him get back on track, which would be huge (***** AARON HILL get out.... #30!!!!!!!!!!!!! **** YEAH)

if we cannot sign anyone at a reasonable rate than Lind probably will be our cleanup hitter i'd love to see him backing up a real power hitter though, cause lind might be a great all around hitter (Kind of like Johhny O was)



Ruiz is interesting, it is possible that he found something this year but I'm guessing the pitchers will adapt and figure him out but we might be able to get another year out of him





if we're putting out a lineup like that i would actually like to see

1)Scuttaro
2)Hill
3)Snider
4)Lind
5)Wells
6)Overbay
7)Ruiz
8)Encarnacion
9)Barajas/Chaves/Arencibia


the key difference is putting snider right in the middle.... doubt it would happen but i think he is the future and this would give him every chance to succed by having a good hitter behind him like Lind... being young with protection pitchers are more likely to take him lightly

wamco
08-25-2009, 09:45 PM
I'm all about hitting wells 2nd, get his automatic out, out of the way right away.

StealingSigns
08-25-2009, 10:25 PM
I'm all about hitting wells 2nd, get his automatic out, out of the way right away.

Ooooo, I have an idea!!

Let the pitcher hit, and we can use the DH to hit for our centerfielder.

the_lazy_man
08-25-2009, 10:48 PM
A smart sensible thing to do with this team. Peace overbay somehow(that wont be easy),

Get Jason Bay, Put him in RF, then you have Snider, Wells and Bay, Ruiz can play DH, Adam lind can be moved to 1b(i dont know if he has ever tried first:S)
This can be an alternative way to go abouts next year.

I highly doubt unfourtunately that Jason Bay will be there next year. But who knows, Canadian discount:S lol

StealingSigns
08-25-2009, 11:17 PM
A smart sensible thing to do with this team. Peace overbay somehow(that wont be easy),

Get Jason Bay, Put him in RF, then you have Snider, Wells and Bay, Ruiz can play DH, Adam lind can be moved to 1b(i dont know if he has ever tried first:S)
This can be an alternative way to go abouts next year.

I highly doubt unfourtunately that Jason Bay will be there next year. But who knows, Canadian discount:S lol

Canadian discount by the newly minted American citizen? I'm not so sure.

3Blueforyou
08-26-2009, 01:17 PM
A smart sensible thing to do with this team. Peace overbay somehow(that wont be easy),

Get Jason Bay, Put him in RF, then you have Snider, Wells and Bay, Ruiz can play DH, Adam lind can be moved to 1b(i dont know if he has ever tried first:S)
This can be an alternative way to go abouts next year.

I highly doubt unfourtunately that Jason Bay will be there next year. But who knows, Canadian discount:S lol

I do think lind played some 1st in college, and i am sure he has some experinece at the posistion at some point in his baseball life. how smooth of a transistion it would be is another question. The ability to read a ball at 1st is something some guys can really comprehend, if he can pick up the sudilties of the posistion quick he could be alright.

JetLi
08-31-2009, 12:08 PM
I actually have a different idea and have been thinking about it sometime now. Assuming that Scutaro comes back, I would have the order:

Scutaro
Hill
Lind
Ruiz
Snider
Encarnacion/Bautista
Overbay
Chavez
Wells

My thoughts on this is that I'd like to break up the Left handed hitters a little. As much as I believe Snider will hit #4 sooner or later, I'd like to alleviate the pressure for now, but let his power be some protection for Ruiz. Also, as a cheap DH alternative, he's proving he can hit, so if he can hit like this in the off season, I wouldn't mind it.

Encarnacion also showed flashes of power last year, maybe he can show some power next year too and give Snider some protection.

I moved Wells to the bottom of the order for a few reasons, he still has speed, and if he does get on, then there's some speed with Scutaro and Hill coming up. If he doesn't get on, well, Scutaro and Hill are up again.

Lind has too sweet a swing to be a DH, he's got the sweetest swing in the line up, he's the best hitter we have between power and consistency, he bats #3.

Of course if Encarnacion isn't brought back, I don't know if I like Bautista hitting #6, but he seems to hit about the same anywhere in the line up, and that's good enough for me for now. If Scutaro isn't back, then I guess it all depends on who is brought back in return and who's here and who's not. But unless a true #4 hitter is brought into town, I'm pretty much set with Hill, Lind, Ruiz, Snider in the #2-5 slots this upcoming season.

Tragedy
08-31-2009, 11:10 PM
Please keep it civil, guys.

scotttube
09-01-2009, 04:28 PM
I don't think Snider should be thrust into a middle of the order spot next year. He will probably spend next year with some struggles, ups and downs and ultimate success. I'd be much more optimistic about his breakthrough in 2011, 12 or 13.

I would try to rid myself of Encarnacion if I were the Jays for any prospect you can get and then re-invest that money in signing Figgins, Scutaro and picking up a DH.

My 2010 line-up would be

1. 3B Chone Figgins. Speed, OBP and great defense at third base
2. SS Marco Scutaro. OBP, defense at short and a smart, contact hitter in the 2 hole
3. LF Adam Lind. Best OPS in the 3 spot. Send him to outfield camp or something
4. 2B Aaron Hill. Most home runs in the 4 spot. Keep the R-L-R-L going.
5. DH Jim Thome or Carlos Delgado. Whoever is the better value. OBP, power, milestones, trade bait.
6. CF Vernon Wells. The most "kind" position you can put him in after 2009.
7. 1B Lyle Overbay. Versus RHP only. In a good offense you don't want him any higher.
8. RF Travis Snider. Not gonna expect the world from him yet. He may surprise.
9. C Gregg Zaun. One of the best catching bang's for the buck. Good OBP.

Bench Raul Chavez. Cheap backup catcher who knows the staff.
Bench Randy Ruiz. RH platoon side at 1B. Cito said he could play LF so 5th OF after..
Bench Jose Bautista. 4th OF first, backup 3b second. Good eye, draws a lot of walks
Bench John McDonald. Super sub gives you a backup at second, third and short with good D

wamco
09-01-2009, 09:29 PM
funny stuff, personal attacks left and right unedited, I ask if personal attacks are allowed, and THAT gets deleted.

TyA
09-02-2009, 03:14 PM
My 2010 line-up would be

1. 3B Chone Figgins. Speed, OBP and great defense at third base
2. SS Marco Scutaro. OBP, defense at short and a smart, contact hitter in the 2 hole
3. LF Adam Lind. Best OPS in the 3 spot. Send him to outfield camp or something
4. 2B Aaron Hill. Most home runs in the 4 spot. Keep the R-L-R-L going.
5. DH Jim Thome or Carlos Delgado. Whoever is the better value. OBP, power, milestones, trade bait.
6. CF Vernon Wells. The most "kind" position you can put him in after 2009.
7. 1B Lyle Overbay. Versus RHP only. In a good offense you don't want him any higher.
8. RF Travis Snider. Not gonna expect the world from him yet. He may surprise.
9. C Gregg Zaun. One of the best catching bang's for the buck. Good OBP.

Bench Raul Chavez. Cheap backup catcher who knows the staff.
Bench Randy Ruiz. RH platoon side at 1B. Cito said he could play LF so 5th OF after..
Bench Jose Bautista. 4th OF first, backup 3b second. Good eye, draws a lot of walks
Bench John McDonald. Super sub gives you a backup at second, third and short with good D


Would only switch Lind and Hill and possibly Snider with Wells. And noooo Zaun haha. Other than that an improved offence over this year. We can not go into next year with the same group of offensive players

McJoe
09-02-2009, 03:19 PM
I think its time to see what Aaron can do in the 3rd or 4th spot in the order. Some guys just cant hit in certain spots and Aaron has pretty clearly been putting up 3 or 4 type numbers out of the 2 spot.

I would finish the season with Aaron and Lind hitting 3-4 and seeing how that works for them. Maybe Hill 4th and Lind 3rd or the other way around. I dont know.

scotttube
09-02-2009, 04:29 PM
Would only switch Lind and Hill and possibly Snider with Wells. And noooo Zaun haha. Other than that an improved offence over this year. We can not go into next year with the same group of offensive players

Zaunnie in the 9 hole is not bad. He is currently hitting 7th off and on in TBay's lineup. He is better than Barajas OPS-wise; I tend to follow the opinion that Barajas is just about as bad as it gets besides the John McDonald type.